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What do you call…

Thompson 16 Jan 16 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Hilary 16 Jan 16 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM
Thompson 16 Jan 16 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Sol 16 Jan 16 - 11:32 AM
Mr Red 16 Jan 16 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 16 - 12:01 PM
Jack Campin 16 Jan 16 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 16 - 12:39 PM
Thompson 16 Jan 16 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 16 Jan 16 - 06:09 PM
Thompson 17 Jan 16 - 01:03 AM
Mr Red 17 Jan 16 - 04:22 AM
Thompson 17 Jan 16 - 04:27 AM
Mr Red 17 Jan 16 - 05:58 AM
Mr Red 17 Jan 16 - 06:28 AM
Mr Red 17 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM
Mr Red 17 Jan 16 - 06:55 AM
Thompson 17 Jan 16 - 07:54 AM
Harry Rivers 17 Jan 16 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie 17 Jan 16 - 02:26 PM
keberoxu 17 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM
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Subject: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:39 AM

Is there a term for songs that are deliberately antagonistic to a group you regard as your enemies, like Croppies Lie Down, Okie from Muscogee (sp?), etc?


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 10:41 AM

I know that folklore genres that make use of negative stereotypes of other groups are called "Blason Populaire." I'm assuming this extends to songs too. But maybe that's not the kind of thing you're talking about.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM

Protest songs...


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:12 AM

Wwwwell, not really protest songs. These would be songs designed to mock an ethnic or political group of people you're against. Protest songs are protesting; these are the kind of thing that can be used as the precursor propaganda before a round of ethnic cleansing. (Perhaps Okie was a bad example.)


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:32 AM

Don't know if they have a name however, I suggest we call such songs 'Persecution Primers'.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:45 AM

Propagandist

Because they are usually aimed to bolster the moral of the folks at home rather than demoralise the enemy.

Germany & Britain used them in WW2. Lilly Marlene - English words were understood universally to refer to a prostitute. Not too subtle to qualify in the context of the OP. Apparently there were German words aimed back.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:01 PM

A song of Social commentary??..or protest song??

GfS


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:28 PM

I'd just call them "adversarial".


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:39 PM

..if it's to an adversary....to others it may become an 'anthem'.

GfS


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 01:35 PM

Seems like there isn't a word! Interesting! Mind you, there are things there are words for in one language that there aren't in others, like in Chinese families.

I think Lily Marlene was a hit in Germany, and then it caught on with British troops? Longing for your girl is more or less universal with lonely soldiers, and for too many of those poor lads, that girl will be a prostitute. (And why not; isn't she as entitled to love as any girl?)


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:09 PM

"Burlesque" A literary, dramatic or musical work intended to cause laughter by caricaturing the manner or spirit of serious works, or by ludicrous treatment of their subjects. From the Italian burlesco, burla – a joke, ridicule or mockery.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:03 AM

Mm. Burlesque is too broad, and too friendly-sounding. I'm talking about songs of hatred - the kind of thing that was played on the radio before the Biafra war, before Srebrenica, the Bosnian-Serb 'conflict'. The kind of songs North Koreans and ISIS members are now singing about America.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:22 AM

I think you are closing in on the propagandist end of the spectrum. Satire is too weak a notion but close. Jingoistic sort of hovers around without getting close enough. Mockery needs some edge and you would be there.

You could try inventing a portmanteau word like "propahate" - I like the notion of finding a word/phrase in another language and translating, German would be good for that eg earworm is a direct translation of the German Ohrwurm.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:27 AM

Jingoistic is close, though it suggests only nationality, whereas a lot of these songs attack people for their religion (eg Serbian Moslems) or sex (early 20th-century anti-women-votes), etc.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:58 AM

there is the expression "hate speech" , is that close enough?

Not sure if there is a colloquialism in German like "blitz hassen" but if there was it would be fitting.

abominhate might work.

It is a bit like the ceilidhnaut I use to be a bit definite when defining specifically ceilidh dancers, an invented word that can't be mistaken.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:28 AM

agitprop had currency to describe theatre that was stirring it up politically.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM

Yahoo search on "hate propaganda" best of luck


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM

Why not simply use the term Thompson used in the basenote - antagonistic?


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:55 AM

Probably antagonistic is too weak for what the OP is calling for.

If you click on the Yahoo link I provided you will see on page 1 references to The films of Leni Riefenstahl - very fitting IMNSHO. She never recanted, took her allegiance to Hitler to the grave.

I would vote "hate propaganda" as the most apt.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:54 AM

Hm. Pity there isn't a term in English; I wonder if there is in more precise languages.

The trouble with 'hate propaganda' is that those singing the songs probably wouldn't consider them such, but would think them innocently funny.


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:01 AM

Why not do what people have always done? If there isn't a word for it in English, create one. If enough people use it, it'll be in the dictionary before long.

I suggest: odicant n. a song of hate; odicantor n. a singer of songs of hate or a mindless idiot who lacks the maturity to realise there is always an alternative perspective.

(From the Latin: hate = odi, song = canticum)

I'm sure the forum can come up with more suggestions.

Just a thought,
Harry


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:26 PM

Incendiary

Inciting

Rabble-rousing

Deliberately Offensive

Hate-provoking, hate-mongering

Prejudicial

Racist


Shit-stirring

Divisive

Socially Violent

Fear-mongering

Anti-social

Anticultural


Why do you want to know? It's hard to chhose or invent a word when one doesn't know how the user wants to use it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: What do you call…
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM

This question has been around for generations, actually.

The DT has several songs by Flanders & Swann, the English duo who gave us At the Drop of a Hat. I think the DT includes the song with the chorus,

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

And thereby hangs a tale.
Michael Flanders used to introduce this song by remarking,
"Do you realize that England has never had a proper National song of its own? Think of the Germans -- remember,
'German, German Over-Alls'?
What National song have WE got here in England?
'JERUSALEM.'
What are we going to do about that?"

When their song was first performed, the story goes, Flanders titled it "Anthem Anathema." Their reason for changing the song title, according to the story, was that they would perform in public, and afterwards people would come up to them with compliments on that lyric in particular; and Flanders would be shocked to realize that the listener did not recognize the satire involved, and took the lyrics literally. This person/persons would give themselves away by saying that they always felt the way the feelings are described in the song lyrics, and it was about time someone put what they felt into song so that the listener knew that they weren't alone!

This is not what Michael Flanders had in mind at all. He decided that "Anthem Anathema" was too subtle a title and had sailed clear over too many people's heads.

So today the song title says "Patriotic PREJUDICE."

To sum up:
Flanders & Swann intended to -- and did -- present a song that was an intentional satire, and not what people are struggling to describe in this thread. Nevertheless, they discovered that there were people in the audience who actually wanted the literal thing, whatever you call it.


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