BS: Irish Travellers on the move

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
"They have no great culture of acquisition, so much so that, if you openly admire something they have, you will end up taking it home, whether you want it or not - "

How true! It taught me not to admire items in the homes of settled travellers in Scotland for the embarrassment that ensued when that item was immediately offered to you as a gift. Similarly, after you had stayed a short time in their houses and a good conversation had just started when without asking if we were hungry, a cooked meal would turn up for us. I can remember times when we had just eaten and had to tuck into another meal for fear on our parts that we would be giving offence.
The lack of a great culture of acquisition that Jim mentions is central. If they have had a good day with money, they immediately became millionaires spending and lending until it was gone with no thought for the morrow. This is just another of the qualities that make their communities alienated from profit-driven Britain and Ireland where even health, care and education are increasingly in the hands of the acquisitive and exploitative.
In contact with Scots travellers, I found an almost child-like enthusiasm for life despite all the venomous discrimination that they were subject to. Again, child-like, huge rows would flare up where you thought a fight was inevitable and five minutes later all was peaceable as if nothing had happened. Professionally, I had many contacts with English travellers from my senior positions in Special Education and I always found myself acting as their advocate, seeking understanding for the difficulties these families found themselves in.
The similarities of the lifestyle and position in a rapidly changing society of the Travellers in the British Isles and the Manding jalis of West Africa that we have spent so much time with in the last 20 years (we are off there again for another five weeks at the beginning of February) is remarkable. One thing is certain; some of the most enjoyable, rewarding times of my life has been spent with these two very different, very similar communities even though it is sometimes difficult to empathise with or understand cultural differences.
It is what we have gained from these contacts, the kindnesses that we have been shown, that makes us, and I am sure Jim Carroll too, such fierce defenders of the travelling communities in virtually all circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:16 AM

Steve, I disagree with your severe rant regarding 'GUEST' posts.
There.. now what..?

Behind the scenes, mods depending on Hi Tech capabilities, should be able to identify IP addresses like fingerprints ?

That's mudcat admin business - not yours or mine - and for the most part they deserve our respect and cooperation.


You'e stated yet again your entrenched view on guests.
I equally believe threads like this are ruined by stalking ad hominem squabbling.

As soon as certain mudcatters post they are attacked, not for what they wrote or intended, but for what their foes blindly/intentionally misread,
or dredge up from previous skirmishes.
What kind of quality debate does that personalised confrontational behaviour encourage...???

In this thread, I am firmly 'on Jim's side' [if positions need to be staked]

But although I mostly disagree with Keith & Ake I do not automatically discount entirely what they have to say.
I read what they write, not what my righteous progressive 'convictions/prejudices' filters incline me to imagine they wrote or intended to mean.

Ake is an articulate quality thinker, despite accepted conventional wisdom that he is scary bonkers more far right than Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:21 AM

Vic I recognise that culture from many years ago, but do you seriously think that the culture still exists?
It's thirty years since I saw a genuine traveller and I live in a rural area.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM

"Vic I recognise that culture from many years ago, but do you seriously think that the culture still exists?"
It most certainly does.
"genuine traveller "
One of the most horrendously inaccurate phrases to have sprung into existence in the last half century - there are no "none-genuine" Travelers in the Travelling communities, certainly not in my experience.
All come with a long-standing pedigree going back generations of having lived and worked on the roadside.
Some Irish families took to the road at the time of the famine, just as some Scots did at the time of the Clearances - long enough ago to confirm them as "real Travellers"
The "real Traveller" argument comes from the cosy picture of painted of campfires and Travellers who knew their place - the invention of writers like George Borrow.
Thanks Vic, for your very moving account
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:42 AM

Incidentally, the one blip in the term Traveller came with the advent of 'New Age Travelers' - clearly defined and recognised as different as the 'travellers' who daily travelled into work by train each morning.
We wer pleasently surprised to find that many of our Travellers sympathised with them as fellow-victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:43 AM

Jim, what about the new age 'trustafarian' crustie travellers that have sprung up since the swinging 60 ?
I don't know if they still exist to the extent of their 1980s presence ?
Do you think they have muddied the waters regarding popular stereotypes
and real life rural encounters ?

What do Trad Travellers tend to think of them ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM

uncanny cross post Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:46 AM

I don't actually care what you think, Guest, and I won't take you on apropos of your post because I can't respect people who try to talk to me with a cardboard box on their heads. If you're someone here who posts under another name, then (a) you haven't said anything that would cause you to think you should hide, and (b) you are operating under multiple identities, which I regard as wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM

Well I agree with GUEST in everything he says in his last post, though I am too much of a realist to accept his kind compliment.. :0)

He is right on the button with the remarks about stalking and taking ill feeling from one thread to another.
Although we may disagree on one subject, on others we may be comrades if we allow our perceptions "free rein".

Jim and I have battled for years but recently I discovered that I share his radical views on folk music.

I agree with him that the culture of the old time travellers should be encouraged and supported, but it's thirty years since I met a genuine traveller...the wheel may yet spin into more of a subsistence economy where travelling people will have a full part to play and a full contribution to make.

Jim says that the old culture was a load of romanticised nonsense, then goes on to say that travellers have been negatively affected by modern society and assimilation into urban life???

They were a people of their time, as much as is the Gaelic language or the crofting way of life.....they were never really free, none of us are; they were bound by the seasons, the sky above them and the ground beneath their feet.
They were not acquisitive, because in the society that I remember so well, nobody had anything worth stealing and everyone knew that taking from one was robbing the whole community, for we all depended upon one another to a great extent.

Materialism and consumerism has rendered the old travelling people redundant and only a huge change in society can save them.....if that is even possible, we have all become so wrapped up in ourselves and our "rights" that we are hardly worth saving. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:05 AM

?????

I'm not hiding,
posting as guest just seems a no big deal default position unless I write something intentionally consistent with my long 'established mudcat ID / persona'.
Otherwise, I don't care if posterity credits me for random thoughts and statements here at mudcat - no matter how incisive or ridiculous.
We all have our odd quirks and idiosyncrasy. I'm not particularly driven by ego. I can't be bothered with all that tiresome nonsense.

You're mostly top bloke but seem have an oversensitive hostility to guests ???

Oh well, we'll have a laugh in another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM

What do Trad Travellers tend to think of them ?

Not very much in my experience. In interviewing parents in my previously mentioned position of head of Special Schools, I started to hear - "We're Gypsies ( or we are Romanies) - nothing to do with that new-Age lot.... they give us a bad reputation." Reclaiming the once-despised terms became a badge of pride. I sometimes asked such people if they were members of the Romany & Traveller History Society and if they were not I gave them the home phone number of the head of the organisation (who is a friend of mine and lives in this area). She had encouraged me to do this and give the phone number. She was a regular at our folk club and sometimes she would turn up with sceptical, suspicious looking friends who she knew would be delighted to hear the Travellers mentioned and praised as the sources of the songs that were being sung and the tunes that were being played. I always tried to look at her when such comments were being made to catch the broad grin on her face.
We have even been to some of their events and played tunes for them, for although they have lots of step-dancers in the local area, they do not seem to have any musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:19 AM

My views, and I reckon the views of the other Muskets for that matter don't necessarily resonate with the guest's (above.)

That said, I am 100% with him or her regarding the post not the poster. We decided to share a log in (which none of us can be arsed to use these days) in order to confuse the few lunatics who loved stalking us round the threads, spewing bile and judging posts by the person not what they wrote.

IP is irrelevant. Many of us with phones, ipads and laptops with corporate VPNs aren't displaying our own IP anyway, plus anyone can have a IP generator. I am in France skiing right now but have "Tunnel Bear" on the iPad so I can do my on line banking and watch Ski Sunday on BBC iPlayer.

Akenaton is right about those exhibiting abuse. He should be grateful moderators tolerate his bigotry because I fucking well don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:22 AM

You can't look at a Guest's posting history here because all such clowns are rolled into one. I don't care what the mods can or can't see as that is not relevant to me. I've likened it to sitting in a pub with a bunch of blokes all with boxes on their heads and voice-distorting apparatus fitted. The occasional madman might think that that's fertile ground for a constructive discussion but I don't. Akenaton, you may well agree with all that this charlatan says, but at least you haven't hidden behind "Guest" when you've posted your routinely silly opinions, and for that you deserve a modicum of respect if for nothing else. And Guest, for all I know you're someone I know and love, but you can just bugger off until I know who I'm talking to. You've bundled yourself in with a very bad lot. Racists, fascists, religious bigots, Islamophobes and antisemites have all posted under Guest. I hope that makes you feel good.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:30 AM

Yeah Musket - VPNs.. I can't be arsed with them.
Except for when one of my favourite music blogs got banned for some dicks sharing kindle books.
Had to faff about trying different free Vpns.
But thankfully that blog just moved countries and reappeared through normal browsing again.

So my IP is always absolutely stark naked for any mod to see.
I'm not bothered - I'll trust them not to peep through my keyhole or bathroom window.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM

Steve, if this was my site and I had the technology, I'd implement a system whereby any 'From: box' left blank would be allocated a randomly generated name based on IP;
and that name would appear consistently whenever that IP posted anonymously...

Many of the random names might be very unflattering depending on my whims when programming the system.

That'd be a fair compromise ??? But it aint my site.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:45 AM

For me, it's a very simple matter of wanting to have at least a rough and consistent idea of who it is I'm talking to. I will not to speak to people on the phone who don't give me their name either. I don't care whether anyone's stalking me around threads and probably wouldn't even notice it. I have sensitive antennae which quickly tell me whether the game's worth the candle, and I'm listening to them more and more. The current terrorism thread is a case in point. I have strong views on the topic but I really can't be arsed to take on the bigots any more. If there's bile being spewed and the other posters are not shitting on the perpetrator, the thread's dead anyway. I have an inkling that my writing style would give me away anyway if I tried to hide. There is not a single good reason for not making everyone have a consistent user name. The word guest should never, or at least very rarely, appear. As for the post not the poster, nice idea but almost all Guest posts on controversial topics are abusive. So much easier to do when you can hide, and, let's face it, abusive anonymous guests are all hiding behind each other. The very worst people on the forum are also the very safest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:13 AM

"The "real Traveller" argument comes from the cosy picture of painted of campfires and Travellers who knew their place - the invention of writers like George Borrow"

I disagree Jim   Travellers have many names, in Scotland they were tinker.....from the tin craft that they practiced I believe.
The (modern) Traveller, presumably came from the fact that they were itinerant workers.....as has been stated several times on this thread there is no longer any seasonal farm work to do.
I agree, that a degree of "building work" has been attempted, but most of these people have no recognised training or work base.
Most only give a mobile telephone number on their written invoices.
To be honest, round this area most of these so called travellers are simply con men, preying on elderly people or those who wat their work done on the cheap......On the cheap usually works out much more expensive, when folks like me have to undo the damage, or explain to the customer that no work has actually been done to their roof!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM

"Not very much in my experience"
Didn't suggest they identified with the New Age Travellers Vic - more an attitude of 'live and let live' which extended to tramps and homeless people.
One worrying aspect of Travellers life was a tendency to scapegoat other groups - particularly prevalent in those who claim to be "real Romanies" - the Irish and the lesser number of Scots Travellers were the butt of much of the stereotyping in London - largely by English Gypsies - the very term "Romany" was used to demonise other groups of Travellers
THis sort of thing happens when communities are under pressure and looking for someone to pin their own indiscretions on - immigrants maybe.
Ake - we'll never agree on anything while you use such loaded and extremely reactionary terms such as "real Travellers" - there ain't no such animal and if there were, it would be as important as "real Britons" or real Anglo Saxons -such stuff are pogroms made of.
I most certainly did not say that "the old culture was a load of romanticised nonsense" far from it - I said that the outsider's view of that culture, largely based on the romantic and unattainable image of writers like Borrow was both nonsensical and harmful.
Aspects of the old culture were certainly disturbing - arranged marriages, for instance, but that happened in settled rural communities too and is still very much favoured by Royalty and the upper classes to keep thrones, estates and family firms together.
More later - must wash my hair still got it....Wheeeee!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:00 AM

"Ake - we'll never agree on anything while you use such loaded and extremely reactionary terms such as "real Travellers" - there ain't no such animal and if there were, it would be as important as "real Britons" or real Anglo Saxons -such stuff are pogroms made of."

No Jim, there is a distinct difference between "real travellers" and real "scots or Britons"
Scots or Britons are defined by their country of birth. Travellers are defined by their behaviour....itinerants.
When they stop travelling they are no longer travellers no matter what nationality they are, whereas Scots or Britons can never change their place of birth?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,Tyler Alderson
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:15 PM

Jim, I think you're misunderstanding my point RE: solutions and cooperation. I'm not saying that somehow the onus is on them or that they haven't been cooperating. I'm saying that many solutions to deal with the Traveller "problem" (a terrible phrase) are decided unilaterally by the government and settled people. So rather than giving my own solution, I figure we should listen to what Travellers want/need and cooperate with them to help bring that to fruition.

I've read the literature you suggest, and have consulted your own work (at least what's publicly available) as well. I agree with you on your major points, and I respect your opinion, as you've been at this longer than I've been around.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:30 PM

"by the government and settled people. "
Minus the Travellers, of course
" Travellers are defined by their behaviour....itinerants."
No they are not - they are defined by history, background and even there DNA now - whether they Travel or not.
Nonb- Travelling hahas been forced on them by changing circumstance, evil laws and prejudice such as yours
I am a Briton living in Ireland - my change of location has dne nothing to change my national or cultural identity
Thy identify themselves as Travellers, the state defines them as Travellers, they are documented as Travellers - whether they move o stay where they are.
I suggest you listen to the final ten minutes of The Travelling People - you will find yourself there in large letters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:34 PM

Can I assume that you don't regard Jeannie Robertson or the Stewarts as 2not real Travellers" because they lived in houses
Love to see you say yes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 01:15 PM

Akenaton:

"Scots or Britons are defined by their country of birth."

Not entirely, although anyone born in Britain is entitled to British Nationality (I think this is true, it used to be), so are many other people. Which is why I get annoyed with UKIP types going on about "jobs going to people not born in Britain". None of my children were born in Britain. All are British citizens and have been since birth. Neither Ted Dexter nor Colin Cowdrey were born in Britain. Nor was Boris Johnson but I would happily do without him.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:31 PM

Looking at this thread has been an eye-opening experience for me, I thought Mudcat was all traditional music. It's interesting though to see how the discussion has developed quite aggressively over such a short time.
I wonder, if "Travellers" are to be a group with certain rights and privileges, should they not be more clearly defined than appears in the thread? They seem to range from settled people whose ancestors travelled to anyone who wants to roam freely, with complete flexibility in definition being dependent on the point the writer wishes to make.
My only direct contact with travellers was over 50 years ago, the chap and his wife were charming and friendly, but he had a reputation as a bare-knuckle fighter and featured in the Sunday papers for kidnapping his debtors from Manchester pubs to build a monument on Snowdon to his dead father.
As a group they can't all be bad, but the piles of rubbish after many temporary sites have been vacated are not imaginary and I do get the feeling that many think that laws are meant for others, not them.
They are the victims of "progress", however it is defined, but are by no means the only group to be affected, think farm workers, miners,steel workers. They have had to face up to changed circumstances, can "Travellers" be immune?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:14 PM

Travelling people in Ireland have become identified with terrifying violence in robberies of isolated rural farmhouses and of the old and alone in cities. Traveller weddings often involve fighting with axes and slashhooks. Travellers are at the centre of the cruel trade in rhino horn. And there are extremely wealthy Travellers who don't put their hand in their pocket to buy houses for their homeless fellows.

It's all very well to call on your society to give you a home and to recognise your unique culture and heritage, but there should be a quid pro quo.

And yes, I posted this anonymously. I'd be afraid not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:23 PM

In other words, you're happy to be a demonising coward. You are simply not listening to the stuff in this thread about travellers that people with a hundred times more knowledge than you are telling you. Give me the travelling people, with all their imperfections, over you any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 01:03 AM

No, I'm not demonising people.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:51 AM

"No, I'm not demonising people."
That's exactly what you are doing
This thread is about the treatment of hiuman beings - what you appear to be arguing is that "they deserve to be treated the way they are" - demonisation, whichever way you look at it.
I was working as an electrician in London during 'the Troubles'
One customer told be "We have an Irish neighbor so we always check under the car before we drive off in the morning" - that-s a summing up of your argument   
"Travelling people in Ireland have become identified with terrifying violence in robberies of isolated rural farmhouses "
No they are not - please provide evidence of where they are.
One man (John Ward) was executed for trespassing, some of the people found carrying out burglaries have been Travellers, many many more have not.
Rubbish - years ago the council placed a large rubbish container in a car-park to collect large material - boxes, etc - they had to remove it because of people piling up rotting household waste.
One of the classic photos in our local paper was of a 'No Dumping' sign piled around with rubbish dumped from passing cars.
Our rivers have been polluted, our roads are a mess - try waling up O'Connell Street and se the mess   
Sure - there are villains among Travellers as there are in any community - but condemning entire communities is no different than 'all Irish are.." or "all blacks are..."
If we are going to continue here I suggest we leave this felelr to lurk in his anonymity - unless he'd like to sum up his argument by telling us what should happen to Travellers - people like this never do and usually leave it to the Harry Watton's to make their case for them.
Any more on whether you regard Jeannie Robertson and The Stewarts as "real Travellers" yet Ake?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:34 AM

Perhaps "Ex Travellers" would be more appropriate Jim.

Regarding criminality and anti social behaviour, of course the lack of purpose to which I referred earlier and the sense of hopelessness in being tied to a lifestyle which is all but gone and unsustainable, throws up these symptoms, making the chasm between the communities even wider.

The "special group" legislation is also an impediment to integration as the settled communities see it as reverse discrimination in creating areas which are to all intents and purposes "beyond the law"

The old culture has gone Jim, how do you propose to deal with these transient people, do you want them to be assimilated into the settled community or should we have separate legislation to cover all groups who do not wish to conform?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:39 AM

The only areas of The UK that are beyond the law are in the mind (I use the word advisedly) of Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:06 AM

"Perhaps "Ex Travellers" would be more appropriate Jim."
Thank you, thank you, thank you Ake - you've really made my day Jeannie Robertson - Ex Traveller singer!!!
Ill hand in on the wall next to Monty Python's "ex parrot"
Can I call myself an Ex-Brit, d'you think?
I'll be chuckling all day
That really does expose the crassness of your argument.
"The old culture has gone Jim,"
Have already said that, why repeat it?
How do you propose to deal with these transient people
I've already covered that also.
Temporary sites where Travellers can stay for a short time and permanent halting sites where they can return to for longer periods were fought for and won back in the early sixties - we recorded on them in the seventies
Subsequent Governments undermined the the principle of them and they ceased to be developed - John Major's repealing the Caravan and camping act dealt the death blow to the idea.
It was a convenient and economical solution to the situation, it suited all parties and cost far less than than the grossly inadequate ghettos now being built, which does not meet the Travellers needs and only suits those who find Travellers offensive as it hides them behind high walls.
No Traveller is arguing to stay on the road permanently - that is gone.
What they are arguing for is to be able to retain their Traveller identity by still having the option to Travel, whether they exercise it or not.
You say Travellers can't be described as "real Travellers" unless they travel, yet you also argue that if they do, it can't be catered for by modern society - isn't legislating entire communities out of existence 'ethnic cleansing' - if not, what is it?
Jim Carroll (ex electrician)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:39 AM

Jim, I know two people called Mc****, one is settled and his family have been as far back as he can remember, the other is a member of a travelling family who visit this area ......they both originate from the Aberdeenshire area, probably related some time ago. Are they "Travellers" by way of their DNA?.....or are they just Scots with different lifestyles?
My friend Mc**** will be upset if he has to define himself as an itinerant traveller, taking into account that he has a rather high position in the local authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:49 AM

Actually, most of those of my friends who are full or part blood Romany (I go only on what they say) are pretty dismissive of other travellers.

Here is the song "Marks in the Grass" - verses written by Ken (Romanyman) of this site, chorus and tune by John Barden (the Barden of England) of this site. Ken is I think full blood Romany, John part Romany part carny traveller. I hope I got that right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h64rwtkDN7c

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,Guest ND
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:25 AM

The Jeannie Robertson conundrum could be solved by using, "people of traveller heritage" in the way that "coloured people" have become "people of oolour", but I think Jim Carroll has a bigger problem.
Quoting his last post,
"No Traveller is arguing to stay on the road permanently - that is gone.
What they are arguing for is to be able to retain their Traveller identity by still having the option to Travel, whether they exercise it or not."
As a settled citizen I interpret this as saying anyone who self-identifies as of traveller stock should automatically have rights equivalent to those of a member of the Caravan Club, at taxpayer's expense.
What started as a genuine humanitarian issue has slid into cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:59 AM

""people of traveller heritage" "
Sorry - this is a nonsense
Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts, Duncan Williamson and dozens and dozens of others who have long enriched out lives have been known as Travellers, though most of them were settled for decades.
Now, at the behest of a few bigots, we have to re-write their history and re-title them - cloud cuckoo land is right.
Travellers do not "self-identify" - they have been referred to as such for many centuries - that is how they are designated by society in general
Irish Travellers have been DNA identified as having been around since the Bronze age - many families have travelled their areas centuries longer than the settled occupants have lived there.
As I said, according to researchers such as Lucy Duran, there are indications that the case is the same with all Travellers
Travllers have lived as they ahve for centuries - not a matter of choice, that is the heritage into which they were born.
For crying out Ake (and your new friend) - this really is getting creepy!
Incidentally - when we moved here 18 years ago or nearest city (Limerick) was known as "Stab City" due to the behaviour of a few bad families - for for thought for those who need feeding
Jim Carroll (Ex Liverpudlian chuckle - chuckle)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

Jim, as much as I respect and support you, it does get a bit tiresome when you respond to folk who query your specialist knowledge & experience
by automatically harshly dismissing what they have to say and calling them bigots.
Please just show a bit more patience and tolerance for 'ordinary folk' who may be trying to positively understand these complex issues
after a lifetime of negative cultural indoctrination against travellers ?

You never know, you might better win them over you your thinking that way ???

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

Jim, you are wandering off into the realms of mythology, I cant make out what you are trying to prove....That travellers are a distinct race like Romanies?....If so you're gaunne have a hard time bud.

My point is that the old travellers way of life had nothing in common with the so called travellers of today.....and these people do not deserve "special status", as there is nothing special about them either in race or culture.

The last two tinkers in the West of Argyll were Camerons I knew them well and they shared our food and fireside on mony a cauld winters night. They walked the roads till they were over eighty, refusing a bed indoors on even the cauldest night.
Mrs Cameron sold leather laces and small hardware from a huge wicker tray, dressed in long woolen skirt and a dark green tartan shawl, they carried their bow tent with them always, and died together within it when it caught fire down near Lochgilphead.

Don't try to lecture me on travellers, they were part of my life as I was growing up and your charges of bigotry are simply a sign of your political blind spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:36 AM

""Som of teh argument here is opn bigotry- that Travellers are thieves that they are not "real Travellers - so classic as to have formed the cornerstone to the radio ballad half a century ago.
My own experience is totally immaterial to all this - this is a community of human beings in desperate trouble - we should be discussing how to help them, not arguing about what to call them.
I don't think I have been impatient in my effort to do so - somewhat depressed and angry that we should be raking over centuries old prejudices maybe.
WE really have been here before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 10:03 AM

Equally "people of colour" have been called "coloured people" for generations, things move on. Give us a clear definition of "travellers" and there is a chance people will agree with you. Persist in bending it to suit the argument of the moment does no service to your argument. In this unequal world there lots of groups of human beings in desperate trouble, many of whom are taking more active steps than the "travellers" to improve their lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 10:05 AM

I have given my opinion as to what I believe should a happen about providing adequate stopping places for Travellers
I would be polite if the person who requested me to do so responded
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 10:22 AM

Traveller DNA
Worth a look
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 10:54 AM

Don't know if I have missed something, in which case, excuse me, but the only recommendation I picked up was your approval in an early post of sites at Winterbourne and Swindon. Assuming similar sites were to be more generally created, what would be your criteria for siting? Do we take a "traditional" view and put them one day's horse and cart distance apart, or accept progress and stretch that to a lorry and trailer journey? Do we provide them on traditional routes or should there be universal coverage of the country? Do we need to know the numbers of travellers affected and are they generally or locally distributed?
You refer in a number of mails to bigotry, so I looked it up. My dictionary defines a bigot as, "A person obstinately and unreasonably holding some creed or view and intolerant towards others". Does it only apply to those questioning your views?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 11:32 AM

"Temporary sites where Travellers can stay for a short time and permanent halting sites where they can return to for longer periods were fought for and won back in the early sixties - we recorded on them in the seventies"
"Do we provide them on traditional routes or should there be universal coverage of the country?"
The policy of the original Caravan and Camping was to calculate how many Travellers were regularly in each borough and create the number of sites needed to cater for the number
Boroughs claiming no Travellers applied for exemption.
Travellers had no say in where the sites were located and were quite happy to accept the Council's decision, but more progressive councils involved them in what should be included and how the site was laid out.
Both Swindon and Winterbourne adopted this policy, with great success.
"Does it only apply to those questioning your views?"
I'm not the one questioning the right of Travellers to have somewhere to stop, or casting doubt of a centuries old definition of what constitutes a "Traveller"
If "bigotry" includes arguing the case strongly for a persecuted and neglected minority - guilty as charged.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 12:19 PM

So, based on your mail, there should exist details of the boroughs not claiming exemption and the number of sites required. I willingly bow to your better information on the subject than mine and ask you for that information to enable me to assess its likely cost against competing demands for funding, such as hospitals and schools.
You only plead guilty to one aspect of bigotry, the second was intolerance, which I interpret to be unwillingness to accept that alternative views may be valid.
The centuries old definition of what constitutes a traveller related factually to people who travelled, it is thinking such as yours which has extended that to what I wanted to call, "people of traveller heritage" who have settled. If your definition can accept flexibility you can hardly quibble if others chose to adopt their own categorisation of sub groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 01:09 PM

"So, based on your mail, there should exist details of the boroughs not claiming exemption and the number of sites required. "
They'll be a little out of date, but they would be a rough guide.
The police usually keep records of Travellers in the area as do local Councils, social services and doctors who have been visited.
Traveller organisations like The Gypsy Council and The Romany Guild have usually co-operated with assisting and in the old days. Sympathetic solicitors like Norman Bell and others offered their skills to assist Travellers - all kept records.
Nationally, Gratton Puxon, M.P. Norman Dodds and Jeremy Sandford are now dead, I think, but records of their work must still exist.
For Irish and Scots Travellers, the Churches have always been ready to assist.
If the old requirement numbers are no longer available or relevant, it wouldn't take much more than phone calls and a circulation of questionnaires to arrive at a rough estimate - then it could be done over time by simple observation.
It's all ben done before.
I am certainly not intolerant that other views exist - I know they do - this is what we have been discussing - what these views mean in relation to a group of people with a dire problem is a different matter.
It has taken us over five days to get as far just considering the practicalities of any suggestion.
I fail to see why hospitals and schools should come into any of this unless you accept the principle that the lesser well off should be the ones who suffer to assist the even lesser well off
If The Government can find funding for Trident Missiles it's a sad state of affairs if they can't readjust their present policies to provide basic stopping places for the current Traveller Traveller population - this is not a case of finding new funding but to re-direct cash being already spent to evict and harass those with no official stopping places - I suggest you look up how much it cost to evict those families occupying Dale Farm and then to contiue moving on those families who could find no new sites - sort of like kicking around a heap of rubbish until it dissipated.
Why abandon a long standing term like Travellers in order when it is perfectly serviceable, understand and acceptable and documented - it's been log established that Travellers are a distinct cultural group with a history stretching back at least a millienium
Jim Carroll (Ex Liverpool supporter - chuckle, chuckle again!!)

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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 01:38 PM

Out of interest
The Dale Farm eviction of 86 families cost Essex Council £22 million - £21.3 footed locally by the ratepayer.
The Council originally proposed to sue the evicted families for the cost of their eviction, but presumably abandoned the idea as their trip to the European Human Rights court would have been more spectacular than an elephant's enema.
The site was originally a rubbish dump, and since the eviction has lain unused.
To leave them where they were would have cost nothing.
You work the logic of that out and let me know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Travellers on the move
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 01:46 PM

PS The cost of moving the evicted families from place to place since their eviction has never been calculated.
Jim Carroll (Ex)