BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:12 AM

"My grandfather BTW, a Yiddish journalist and Jewish political activist, knew Kropotkin; my father remembered his visiting their home during his adolescence. "
'Peter the Great' - would loved to be a fly on that wall Mike - hope you wrote down some of those memories!
Don't agree with your points about Ukip - its leadership is hardly inspiring, it can't even manage the extremist nutters it attracts and it has a one-theme policy.
But there you go - we're not going to see eye-to-eye about everything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:20 AM

Unhappily, Jim, I have no memories. They were my father's memories of about 1912 or so -- he was born in 1901. I have written all I know of them 4 or 5 posts back.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:36 AM

I agree that these ad hoc single-issue fly-by-night parties are unsatisfactory phenomena sub speciæ æternitatis. I still keep on my lavatory wall as a sort of souvenir a "Referendum Party -let the people decide" badge; and had to re3sort to wikipedia even to remember what election it was [1994] and what the guy's name was [Sir James Goldsmith], both of which bits of info had faded entirely from my memory. And Farage & UKIP will doubtless go the same way. But from my

'out at all costs before the French & Germans who unite in hatred of us if in nothing else whatever succeed in ruining us beyond repair'*

pov, they're all we've got.

≈M≈

*Only a day or two since I quoted on some other thread that indispensable principle which I now have cause to iterate yet again, that "just becoz I'm paranoid doesn't mean that the buggers ain't out to get me!"

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:38 AM

Ukip's doorstep popularity was all about its stance on immigrants and very little else. Europe on its own has never really fired up the electorate that much. Ask William Hague. They were able to cash in gleefully on the fact that the Tories had dismally failed to keep a promise on immigration numbers that they should never have made (ask yourself why they did make it). One of the penalties of democracy is that we have to permit unscrupulous politicians to appeal to people's prejudices and baser instincts, as well as allowing right-wing mass media to side with them. Couple that with a semi-literate population, politically-speaking, and fighting it can be bloody hard. Ask Jeremy Corbyn. I'm amazed that anyone posting here with pretensions to intelligence can't see right through Ukip.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:49 AM

jim,
The doors and bands, I suspect, were not to actually persecute the wearers or the tenants, that would be counter-productive, but to be able to find them in a hurry if the need arose, ie. to fulfill election promises and to keep an eye on us.

So you are back to claiming it was all a government plot!
Crackers Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:13 AM

Steve,
That's what I meant by softening people up in order to get them to take illiberal immigration policies onboard.

You have it the wrong way around.
Government loves immigration. It keeps big business happy by supplying lots of supine workers ready and willing to work for less and who have been trained at someone else's expence.
It also provides rich folks like us with plenty of gardeners, plumbers, child minders, nannies and care workers for rock bottom money.

It is the poor who suffer the hardship of reduced wages, opportunities, housing, school places, overcrowded hospitals and services.
It is the ordinary people who are desperately begging government to introduce "illiberal immigration policies," not the other way round.

Cameron made no promises on immigration last election because he was shown to be incapable or unwilling to keep the immigration promises he made the previous time!

Why are you and the Left so in favour of even more liberal immigration policies?
Who benefits?
Working people see it as a betrayal by those who are supposed to speak for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:38 AM

"So you are back to claiming it was all a government plot!"
Sigh..... no Keith - I know it was the idea of two companies, the doors known about by the government for at least four years before they did anything about it.
I'm saying it was a possibility that the Govenment was happy to let it go ahead and take advantage of it - stranger things have happened at sea
Are you still claiming I suggested that the government wanted to "persecute" asylum seekers - not there's crackers for you - dishonest ones, to boot.
I don't expect either of you dickshits to withdraw the accusation, let along apologise for it.
]Piss off and let the adults talk
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:42 AM

By the way - if the Government "loves immigration" - why as stopping it become such a feature of their policy?
Please don't deny it - just read what Theresa the Teaser says
As you say "crackers"!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:45 AM

But you keep beginning in medias res, Steve. Why are the 'mass media' rightwing? Because the 'mass' wouldn't buy them if they were leftwing, that's why. Where's The Daily Herald gone? I dimly remember it from my childhood. In common with all soi-disant believers in democracy, you can't adjust to, or get your head around, the fact that the δεμος won't take to socialism in any form - don't like it, don't trust it, don't want it. Don't you just despise the pathetic contemptible proles, eh, who are so easy to manipulate coz they are 'semi-literate politically' -- which means they have the temerity not to share your utterly discredited idealistic egalitarian vision, even after all the societies that have been supposed to practise it -- USSR, Maoist China, Tito's Yugo et al -- have been such conspicuous successes and exemplars to us all!

Oh, what's the use

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:57 AM

"Because the 'mass' wouldn't buy them if they were leftwing, "
You don't know that Mike - it's never been tried.
Even so, if we decide our culture on how it will sell, we may as well make a bonfire of Shakespeare, Hardy and Dickens and replace them with pop-pap
As far as the news media goes - the idea that it only prints what will sell is frightening - "anything fit to market" - now there's a twist on an old saying.
You never cease to disappoint me,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:17 PM

"it's never been tried"

Yes it has, Jim -- see above about the Daily Herald. It was the organ of the TU movement & Labour Party, explicitly established to sell alongside the publications of Beaverbrook & Kemsley & printed in similar format, and we had it at home in the 1930s. And where is it now? Ah, you are glad I asked you that, aren't you?

Will's plays have always played to big audiences, from The Globe onward. What other playwright's works have gone on filling theatres, non-stop & worldwide, for nearly half a millennium? Dickens sold millions in his day. Hardy made a good living, built a big house,, & still sells steadily. But where are the million-sellers of the likes of Ethel M Dell which come & go like mayflies? Sorry, can't get your point here at all.

Will just have to soldier on, living with the grief which your 'disappointment' in me induces, won't I alas! Mind you, your 'disappointment' [how caused BTW? -- still on about this 'mask, which I've never worn, are we?], strikes me as somewhat unmannerly & patronising. My remarks, as Dr Johnson remarked to a detractor of a work he admired, "were writ with little thought of pleasing you".

Best regards as always notwithstanding --
≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:50 PM

... and now I have demonstrated that, yes, it has been tried, just try asking yourself, Jim, why it hasn't been tried AGAIN...

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 01:15 PM

Superfluous post, Michael. I'm resigned to the way things are. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to point out that an overwhelmingly right-wing media is bad for democracy, bad for helping people to make fair choices and good for keeping people semi-literate politically (which suits the right-wing down to the ground. No-one not of their ilk would ever vote Tory if they know what they are really like, self-interested, grabbing bastards whose número uno priority is to look after the well-heeled). Democracy is the best of a bad job, mainly because democracies hardly ever wage war on other democracies. Try to remember that when you're voting us out of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:04 PM

Keith and Michael hit the nail on the head, the left have all but disappeared, to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites.

Of course the poor in thrall to a corrupt media would rather watch the prancing freaks on "Big Brother", or any of the other "reality" shows which dominate TV ....and now even radio.
The entertainment and information media is a disgusting pit of propaganda, crass, witless and foul mouthed.

The Herald was a serious newspaper, it was replaced by the more downmarket Sunday Herald, but most of the population have the concentration span of a midge on pot.
Real Socialism will be unpleasant for the middle classes, for those who believe they have the right to behave in any manner they like regardless of the cost to society.

We are all going to have to grow up, start educating our young people properly providing meaningful jobs for everyone whether they are interested in working or not....socialism will mean compulsion for the common good.....there will be no room for a liberalism which hands out houses benefits and food to immigrants while our own poor fester.

I wonder why the great powers cannot construct "safe areas" in the middle East as they did in the Balkans.....the flood of immigrants may be of benefit to Big Business and The NHS, to provide cheap labour, but in the long term they will change our countries beyond recognition.....and we won't bloody well like it, not even our Mudcat whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking ideologues.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:18 PM

Well, you are A Real Friend Of The People, aren't you, Steve.   Perhaps, just maybe-waybe-waybe, a teensy-weensy itsy-bitsy ickle bit patronising, knowing so unerringly where their true interests lie so much better than the poor little dears can work it out for themselves?

Oh, dearie-wearie-wearie-me NO!: why, perish the very thought!

But don't, if you would be so kind, patronise me as if I was one of your tame·sweeti·pie-ickle·proles. I'll decide what I'll choose to remember while I vote about Europe, thankyouverymuch·justasame -- and come and go by Carterhaugh, while I'm about it, ask nae leave of thee!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:51 PM

Will resound to your post fully later Mike - probably tomorrow.
In the meantime - wonder why "A Real Friend Of The People" has become almost as insulting as "do gooder" or "bleeding heart"... or all the other once complementary phrases in the mouths of you right wingers - in the same way as a yearning for equality of opportunity has become "the politics of envy" - a bit "I'm the king of the castle" or, as we used to say in Liverpool "Ding - ding, I'm on the bus".
Personally, I find it smugly elitist and unpleasant - but then again, I'm only an 'oick'.
Some of us try to think outside Thatcher's 'dog-eat-dog' world and tend to worry about what's happened to society.
Your babytalk really isn't one of your most dmirable traits, Im afraid.
"to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
Christ almighty - hate to be the bearer of bad news Ake but the nearest you'll ever come tosocialism is National Socialism - what the hell are you on?
You are probably one of the most intolerantly vicious and dangerously right-wing fanatic I have ever encountered.
You describe yourself as a "conservative socialist", which is actually a contradiction in terms - Socialists wish to change thins for the better while Conservatives are quite happy with the way things are and are prepared to fight tooth and nail to conerve the status quo.
I once asked you your vies on the common ownership of the means of production and distribution (Socialism) - I received no answer; still working it out, I presume.
I assume I'm not going to get either an apology for or explanation of your dishonesty - didn't expect one really.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 03:10 PM

No Jim, you are the one who has it wrong I'm a political socialist and a social conservative.....is that so difficult to work out

I don't know of any proper socialist regime which was "liberal ...they are not the same thing at all.
Do you think Fidel Castro was a liberal..:0)?
Fidel was and probably still is, very socially conservative.

Of course I believe in public ownership of transport, power, production, even farming, but our people have become weak in mind and body unfit for the struggle, because they believe that individual "rights" are more important that the construction of a better society, they feel entitled to everything that life can give without having to contribute or conform.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:10 PM

Silly post, Michael, even for you. Do try to address what people say, otherwise don't bother replying, if you don't want to look bloody stupid. Been here before so many times, haven't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:58 PM

Steve:- What conceivable warrant do you imagine yourself to have to address me in that patronising tone? What, out of interest, do you claim to have said worth addressing, that I have failed to 'address'?
Off with you and - ah - satisfy your needs, would you please?

And, Jim: you impress nobody with your wallowing in so much self-pity; nobody feels sorry for you. 'Oick', is it? You really think that how we regard you and that's the whole trouble? Ah diddums... Sorry meanwhile to see you once again embracing the esoteric discipline of the Higher Point-Missing, in which you have good claims to be one of the leading exponents in the history of the Universe.

Traditional greetings

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:43 PM

Michael, at your age you should have learned that light-hearted banter may be conducted in whatever playful tone the participants connive in. But serious conversation, particularly where some antagonism is involved, needs to ditch the patronising stupidity of the childish modes of address of the kind you resort to. It's about outcomes, dear boy, outcomes. And the outcome of your wit-free childish talk is that we all think that you're a bit of a twat. You bring it on yourself. In the illiterate terms of the common yank, go figure. Sorry to be less than gentle with a chap of your advancing years, but you really do need to be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:19 PM

"No Jim, you are the one who has it wrong I'm a political socialist and a social conservative"
You are an extremist right-winger - pure and simple
Socialism is about the fair distribution of wealth and equality of opportunity the fact that you refuse to respond to that fact makes you what you are - a caricature of an extremist.
"a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
You seem to be suffering from severe dyslexia, to boot - rights are what they are - rights.
They are not privileges, nobody gave them as a favour - they were hard-fought-for over centuries, the right to vote, the right to combine, the right to decent housing, sanitation, the right to work, to education, to decent health care.....
The last half century has seen the gradual whittling away of those hard-won rights - by people like you, and now, with the few we have left, when we claim them we're told we are "whining".
I ask again - what are you on? You certainly haven't overdosed on humanity.
You lie in defence of practices which have even been condemned by theh rightest-of-right Daily Mail, you sneer are people who regard laying human beings open to the worst of racist thugs in Britain as evil.... you defend every right wing statement, every move that would seek to improve the lot of homosexuals who have been at the mercy of bigotry and oppressive laws for many centuries......
If you are a 'socialist', my jack's a kipper.
I still have in mind that you are the only human being(sic) to have ever suggested that mass-murderer Brievik, who ruthlessly slaughtered all those young people, "was saying something worth listening to".
Time to open the window and let some fresh air in, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 02:21 AM

A post devoid of truth Jim, full of misrepresentation.

Most of it is unworthy of comment......but regarding Brievik, you have as usual quoted me out of context, you do that to everyone with whom you disagree. What was I was discussing in the Brievik thread, was the effect of unregulated and overly quick immigration on the population of the Scandinavian countries and the backlash it was likely to provoke.

Recent events have proved me correct.

I am not against immigration per se, but it must be managed in such a way as to allow immigrants to be assimilated into what is a totally alien society. This can never happen when the flood of immigrants is so great that the infrastructure cannot cope.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Larsen E. Pettifogger
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 03:04 AM

...and who are prepared to lie, distort and misinterpret in their vain attempts to achieve their goal?"


As my dear old grandfather Litvak said (just before they swung the trap), he said "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump."

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 03:46 AM

"A post devoid of truth Jim, full of misrepresentation."
Nothing untrue there Ake - and your blanket denial proves that.
Be happy for you to take my points one by one and hold them up for examination, but I don't believe for one moment you are prepared to do that.
Your remark about Brievik having something worthwhile to say is archived and part of the dark history of this forum.
Your excuse for that remark only serves to underline the horror of that statement - it is a perfect companion to yor support for forcing asylum seekers to wear armbands and have their front doors painted red - which is still running.
Your claim to socialism still needs to be explained - you remain silent on that one, probably on the grounds that anything you do say might incriminate you (it's known as 'pleading the fifth' in the U.S.)
Your "political socialist and a social conservative" is in fact acute schizophrenia - the two terms are opposite - socialism is a desire to change society, conservatism is a desire to keep it from changing - and ne-er the two shall meet..
The ink is still dry on your contempt for our rights, but just in case it was uttered in a moment of madness, a reminder:
"to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
You are not against immigrants in the same way as you are not against homosexuals - you "support" them in the way a rope "supports" a hanging man".
"And, Jim: you impress nobody with your wallowing in so much self-pity; "
Don't you dare use your squalid Tory clichés on me Mike.
I have never at any time sought 'pity'
I did well with what we had - I worked all mu life and was able to retire comfortably on what we had.
If I popped my clogs tomorrow, I would be happy with whate Pat and I have left behind after decades of work in a field we believe to be important.
My concern is not for me but for what you people have made of the world - the wasteland of acquisition and bloodshed you have left to our children
How one gets from Pyotr Kropotkin to 'The Ghastly Gargoyle of Grantham' will remain for me one of life's great mysteries (and before you embark on another series of unpleasant accusations, I'm not an Anarchist, just an admirer of dedicated writing)
Yoy really picked up a nasty dose of 'me-me-me' during her reign of terror - please don't assume the rest of us did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 04:56 AM

Jim, I just cant be bothered playing your childish games.
I always try to be truthful and give my views honestly.
I have never knowingly lied on this forum and do not misrepresent what people say. I rarely quote out of context, you do it continuously.

I could take any part of your posts Quote them out of context and make it look as if you meant something different....I do not participate in these sorts of games, neither do I participate in cursing or name calling.
I come here for decent discussion of serious subjects not a war of attrition.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:02 AM

"Jim, I just cant be bothered playing your childish games."
You mean you're not prepared to defend your claims and your behaviour - didn't think for a moment that you would
You make your dishonest statements, you defend the indefensible, you insult people left right and centre - nothing new there Ake
I quote nothing out of context - what Breivik has to say, worth listening to or not, was drowned out by the sound of his gunning down 77 young people.
Nobody who commits such an atrocity has anything to say worth listening to.
If you make claims, you need to discuss them - that's the idea of public forums.
Stick behind 'The Fifth' - far safer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:35 AM

" Of course I believe in public ownership of transport, power, production, even farming, but our people have become weak in mind and body unfit for the struggle, because they believe that individual "rights" are more important that the construction of a better society, they feel entitled to everything that life can give without having to contribute or conform"

Why am I reminded of speeches in 1930's Germany when I read this?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:37 AM

"...neither do I participate in cursing or name calling."


"If so, you're as daft as Jim.
Why don't "you people" grow up?"


Plenty more of that on this board.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:43 AM

Dear me, what a lovely pompous old booby that Steve is. As windable-up as my grandmother's old brass elephant clock. I hope he keeps it up: it's really quite entertaining.

(Wonder where that went BTW Had a lovely chime & I loved it as a child. Think my cousin in Washington DC might have grabbed it when she died.)

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:52 AM

"Why am I reminded of speeches in 1930's Germany when I read this?"
You notices that too?
Thought I was beginning to imagine it.
Jim Carroll