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BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!

Jim Carroll 25 Jan 16 - 11:05 AM
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Teribus 29 Jan 16 - 08:18 AM
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Jim Carroll 08 Feb 16 - 04:25 AM
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Steve Shaw 08 Feb 16 - 05:38 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM
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Jim Carroll 08 Feb 16 - 07:05 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Feb 16 - 07:15 AM
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akenaton 08 Feb 16 - 09:04 AM
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Jim Carroll 09 Feb 16 - 07:46 AM
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Jim Carroll 09 Feb 16 - 10:18 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 16 - 01:02 PM
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Steve Shaw 09 Feb 16 - 06:04 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 16 - 04:57 AM
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Subject: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:05 AM

Cardiff
Asylum seekers in Cardiff are being forced to wear brightly coloured wristbands in order to get food.
The move has been condemned by the Welsh Refugee Council (WRC), which warns the practice has echoes the yellow star Nazis made Jewish people wear at the outbreak of World War II.
More than 200 asylum seekers housed in accommodation in the Welsh capital on a Home Office contract must show the coloured wrist bands to get food, Hannah Wharf from the WRC said.
Asylum seekers claim they have been targeted for abuse as a result of wearing the bands. The WRC said it raised the matter with the Welsh Government month ago but has had no response.

Middlesborough
Asylum seekers in Middlesbrough live in funded houses with red doors
They claim they are marked out leaving them at risk of racist abuse
Locals compare the policy to yellow stars for Jews in Nazi Germany
One asylum seeker said: 'Change the colour - anything but red'
Security contractor G4S denies deliberately highlighting refugees' houses
G4S apparently knew for 4 years about the practice but didn't take action

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM

And coming soon to the USA! Just listen to the Republican candidates!!

But surely it should be yellow crescents sewn onto their clothing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

"Asylum seekers in Middlesbrough live in funded houses with red doors"

I hope many Welsh people will paint their doors red as a sign of support for those seeking refuge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 12:56 PM

Appalling. Under the tories the nation is becoming a nastier, meaner and more depressing place to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:09 PM

Wristbands and red doors for refugees: history is not repeating itself, but it is rhyming


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM

They would be better off seeking refuge in Russia or Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM

Well, at least no UK politician has yet referred to any other politician as a half-breed or head negro.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:35 PM

Give 'em a chance, Richard, just give 'em a chance......


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 03:13 PM

The effect of these two actions have been awful, but I do suspect that they weren't intended.

There are places where a particular colour is used by landowners. I can think of two - there's a village in West Sussex, possibly Midhurst, where most of the properties belong to the nearby big house's estate, and last time I drove through, all the properties were painted in the same shade. And along the South Circular, a bunch of properties belonging to a building contractor were all painted in the same colour. I imagine the same thinking went with the doors.

Where it started to go wrong was that the company concerned then decided to make its money by targeting the asylum seekers account with whichever government department was involved.

And then a nasty bunch of locals worked it out and made a point of attacking the properties. Of course, painting them different colours now will not help at all, because those nasty people know which houses they are.

As for the wrist bands, I dare say the original issuers thought of it as being like people using them for festivals.

It is, again, the nasty bits of work who spotted that they had a way of identifying people to bully who caused the problem.

It's quite different from the government deciding on a label, making the refugees wear it, and telling everyone else, via the medium of films and so on portraying the refugees as rats or similar, that attacking the wearers of the label is a good patriotic act.

Unless, of course, it's all been much more subtle than yellow stars, and the engaging of that obnoxious woman and similar shock columnists as people who can be identified as outliers when they do the labelling is part of a conspiracy to achieve the same effects as 1930's Germany without attracting the opprobrium. Until it's too late.

I do worry about the people I share this country with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:09 PM

That sounds like a thoughtful , balanced post penny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Kampervan
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:16 PM

On one level Penny is probably right. But it is the fact that the people who initiated the bands or the painting of the doors didn't realise the effect that their actions would have.

They didn't think about it. They didn't think that anything that visibly marks someone as being different might result in a backlash.

Those people should think about and the errors should be corrected without delay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:28 PM

Conversely, they DID think about it, and knew exactly what they were doing.

And that's the "troubling" part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:03 PM

"There are places where a particular colour is used by landowners."
Both of these examples are from heavily populated, built up urban areas and the reasons given in no way resemble those you suggest.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:39 AM

I have always assumed that the reason for a common colour was to do with economies of scale, linked with ease of identification. The South London properties, in an urban area, include presumably rented homes. I initially gathered from the press that the door colour was of the same pattern.

I think it has been quite easy for people not to think of what vicious thugs might make of something, because most people do not mix with said thugs. It wouldn't have occurred to me.

Anything of the sort introduced now, of course, would show deliberate choice in the knowledge of what can happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:46 AM

". The South London properties, in an urban area, include presumably rented homes. I initially gathered from the press that the door colour was of the same pattern."
All the whose doors were painter red were owned by the same firm - government subsidised for accommodating asylum seekers
Doors
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM

Announced this morning (The Times)- the 'yellow star' type armbands are to be abandoned - but "The memory lingers on" as the song says.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:53 AM

Jim:
If you care to read the link you posted you will see that the company "Jomast" hold a housing stock, with red doors. While it is possible that all their tenants who are asyslum seekers have red doors (not surprising if that is all their stock), not all their properties with red doors house asylum seekers.

Someone has leapt to unneccesary conclusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM

Please don't give Trump any ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:56 AM

It worries me that this country is going through an attitudinal shift that makes bigotry acceptable, and we have a government that is doing nothing to address this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM

"Announced this morning (The Times)- the 'yellow star' type armbands are to be abandoned"

Yellow star type armbands? I didn't buy a paper today but I have seen nothing about armbands of this type in any previous news report.

I am sure that Jim isn't exagerating to promote his own political viewpoint so I am sure that he can provide a link to a free news site about these armbands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:01 AM

exagerating to promote his own political viewpoint

Quite amusing, coming from you, Beardie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM

Times got it wrong, they are wristbands - has been covered by newsfeeds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:28 AM

What a joke, they're painting the doors four different colours, but there is a problem ....they have only one colour of undercoat :0(

They'll need to slap the gloss on quick!!

You folks need to get a bloody life, the lady was right it's about economics.....the council used to paint all the doors green because they bought a bulk lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

Thanks, Nigel. My only doubt about the door colour tied to the company, which was not apparently solely concerned with asylum seekers, was the incident when a group in one of the houses had repainted the door white, and it was shortly after repainted red. But even that could be tied to a determination to conform with the company paint code, with no intent to identify asylum seekers. (I live in an area with very strict design rules, so expect that sort of thing.)

I think one has to have very convincing proof of intent before waving around accusations of imposing identification deliberately to make people second class citizens. I suspect the worst that could be said of the wristband fracas was that they thought that if they didn't make them tamper proof (they couldn't be removed and replaced), people would be passing them around and fiddling the system.

Meanwhile, has anything been done to identify and deal with the perpetrators of the illegal harassment? They are the real guilty people in all of this, and should be very firmly, and publicly, sat on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM

Anything that is used to identify an individual as a ........ should be an area of grave concern. While the intention way only be administrative expedience, at the same same the practice can lead itself to abuse either within the system, or by those who observe the labeling outside the system - eg racists, little englanders, britain first/edl thugs etc.

It would not be acceptable, for instance, those who are on low earnings to wear a label in order to claim housing benefit or for children to be labelled in order to have free school meals if they are eligible, so there is know justification to require this of someone who is seeking asylum. I


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Perhaps something to do with language difficulties? Was there any additional information on the wristbands?

If the people were from Syria or Libya I don't suppose racists would require wristbands to identify them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:13 AM

"You folks need to get a bloody life, the lady was right it's about economics"
Well done Ake -you are now to the right of the Daily Mail
The Daily Bumwipe

If it was "a question of economics" why have the doors tenants repainted, been repainted back to their original colour?
"The housing is provided on behalf of the government by Jomast, a private company owned by multimillionaire Stuart Monk and which acts as a sub-contractor for security company G4S. Jomast and G4S, which run the contract for the whole of the north-east of England, have a duty to "recognise that the safety and security of [asylum seekers] must not be jeopardised".
One man whose house was targeted told The Times: "They put us behind red doors. When people see them, everyone knows it means asylum seekers. It's like saying we're not the same as you."
Asylum seekers at one house felt so stigmatised they painted their door white. When a Jomast employee visited, he reportedly demanded to know why the colour had been changed, saying it was "against company policy". The door was then repainted red.
Suzanne Fletcher, a local resident who chairs the Liberal Democrats for Seekers of Sanctuary, said concerns over the issue had been raised repeatedly over the past four years, with information passed to G4S, the Commons Home Affairs Committee, the National Audit Office and former Redcar MP Ian Swales.
She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme on 20 January: "In September 2012, we asked G4S if they would do something about the red doors and they replied that they had no intention of doing anything about it."
Fletcher said the asylum seekers had been worried that it marked them out for attacks. "The police obviously have done everything that they can do but because asylum seekers are so vulnerable, they are frightened of jeopardising their case, things haven't always been reported," she said.
Of 168 Jomast houses identified by The Times in two of Middlesbrough's poorest districts, 155 had red front doors. Among people living at 66 of the red-door properties, it emerged that 62 were home to asylum seekers of 22 nationalities. Of the four non-asylum properties, two housed former asylum seekers and two were home to British citizens.
Shadow transport minister and Middlesbrough MP Andy McDonald said the practice was "reprehensible" and that it "reminds you of Germany in the 1930s", according to Sky News."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:25 AM

I still think it would be effective were people to show solidarity with their neighbours and paint their own doors red. The 'policy' would change soon enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:31 AM

It's not only the refugees' doors that are painted red, everyone who lives in a house owned by this company has a red door so how does that make them singled out?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:11 PM

"Yellow star type armbands? I didn't buy a paper today but I have seen nothing about armbands of this type in any previous news report."
he Welsh Refugee Council (WRC) claimed the wristbands echoed the yellow star Jewish people were forced to wear during the time of Nazi Germany.

WRC policy officer Hannah Wharf said: "We have raised the matter many times with the Welsh Government. It harks back to the Nazi regime with people being forced to wear a Star of David and stand out.

Surrey Comet

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM

"It's not only the refugees' doors that are painted red, everyone who lives in a house owned by this company has a red door so how does that make them singled out?"

It doesn'tnecessarily, but it narrows the odds. Jomast doesn't have a patent on red doors, so why not repaint one's door red? Reminds me of a short story entitled "The Purple Children".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:58 PM

Be easier if they simply painted the refugees red. That may be the next thing Trump proposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 01:39 PM

I really don't see the problem here
The refugees have all given examples of persecution through having been identified via there front doors and the practice has been universally condemned by the media.
It seems only the extreme right feel that we shoud "get a bloody life" which is fairly indicative of the danger these families are in.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM

So the issue has been known since 2012 - that alters things.

Even though I was thinking that "company policy" does not have to mean a policy to identify asylum seekers, merely a policy to identify company properties for the benefit of company employees new to the area and so on, a persistence with the policy when the problems have been pointed out, and to a number of people in authority suggests something more unpleasant than jobsworth's idiocy.

I'm sorry I don't live up there, so I can't get involved with door painting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:02 PM

I used to live in a council house, the doors a walls were painted every couple of years by council workers.
Tenants were not allowed to decorate the OUTSIDE of their houses.
There were no asylum seekers in our scheme.
Exterior decoration is probably covered in the terms of lease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:13 PM

If anyone painted their doors or walls another colour, they were censured and had to pay for repainting.
Tenants rights are confined to the inside of property in regard to decoration......Landlords are responsible for outside maintenance, unless tenants offer to do it at their own expense, then their request will be considered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:16 AM

"Tenants rights are confined to the inside of property in regard to decoration."
The first right of anybody is to defend themselves and their families from harm - tenants or not
These doors were equivalent to hanging signs up and saying "To any right wing thus who happens to be in the vicinity - I am an asylum seeker - please feel free to vandalise my home".
These are the figures of the homes with red doors again
"Among people living at 66 of the red-door properties, it emerged that 62 were home to asylum seekers of 22 nationalities. Of the four non-asylum properties, two housed former asylum seekers and two were home to British citizens."
Coincidence - sure it is!!!
Whatever the intention of the company was, that is exactly the effect it had, and it is inexcusable to hide behind bureaucracy to defend it.
The practice has been universally condemned as detrimental to the tenants - but defended by the valiant few here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:00 AM

Jim it pains me to say this, but you are acting in a deranged manner over this....no one is defending anything, there was a reason why letting agencies wanted all their property to remain uniform externally.    Public taste. Some people have weird ideas on how their houses should look, and if they are not in a conservation area and they own the property that is fine....however if they do not own the property they will normally not be allowed to tamper with the outside decoration or dictate what colour it should be.

Additionally what would be the purpose of "identifying asylum seekers", to the letting agencies? this could cause trouble and damage to the property.
Are you seriously contending that this was the letting agencies intentions?.......I think you are being disingenuous, you don't believe such a thing, but find promoting the idea as beneficial to your "liberal" agenda.

The whole episode is a nonsense a symptom of a society which no longer has any cohesion or belief in itself.....and I am sorry to say that it is people like you and others on this forum....who have made it so.

"The politics of the madhouse"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:06 AM

Sounds like an example of adding 2+2and arriving at 2000 ! Red doors equals persecution of asylum seekers !


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM

You've had the facts of the matter - the red doors have caught the attention of fascist thugs - there is every reason to remove them, no excuse whatever to leave things as they are.
"Red doors equals persecution of asylum seekers "
Old trick Pete - Perhaps you are not aware of the biblical legend of smearing the door with blood to make it stand out
Thought you were a Christian - thanks for your Christian understanding of their problem!!
Wonder how you would feel if it was your particular religious brand being targeted.
"Public taste" over-rides public safety - new one on me!!
Is there any evidence that the public were actually consulted on this matter? - no - thought not
"Are you seriously contending that this was the letting agencies intentions?"
Landlords are notorious for not giving too much thought to what they do as long as the money keeps rolling in.
They have a duty of care to their tenants and the fact that they are government-funded gives them a responsibility towards the tax-payer.
Despite the fact that this has been universally condemned, by press and politicians alike, you are still defending it.
Remind me of your political leanings again - memory's not what it was!
It transpires that the asylum seekers who were forced to wear armbands also had red plaques placed on the walls of their homes - perhaps in response to "public taste" - waddya think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:49 AM

Sadly it really doesn't matter NOW what colour the doors are. Any thug with a modicum of nous will just target houses with newly painted front doors. Same problem different coloured door.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:27 AM

Meh, another trumped up cause by the pious to wave their flags of self-righteousness. Nothing to see here folks, move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:36 AM

The armbands are a different issue Jim, perhaps more sourced information may be available?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:51 AM

The armbands are extremely Googleable
The plaques were exposed in this mornings press
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 10:56 AM

The "S" in G4S stands for Securitas, a hired-thug firm that got its start providing privatized goon-squad services to Franco's Spain.

They have a track record of knowing what they're doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

But why would they want their property damaged?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 11:19 AM

"But why would they want their property damaged?"
There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years.
But surely the reason why it was done is beside the point - the practice has led to vandalising attacks on the property and it is putting the safety and possibly the lives of tenants at risk (only takes a braindrad, a can of petrol and a match and whoosh- there you go)
Why on earth are you and your interesting allies defending this horrendous practice Ake?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 11:25 AM

"But why would they want their property damaged?"

Who knows, Ake? Lots of maybes.

1) Damage to their properties is covered by the UK government
2) They have been instructed to do so by someone bigger 'n them
3) They're fascistic-control(l)ing bastards and can't help themselves
4) There are many shite town councils that work with them
5) They have good insurance

Shave and a haircut, two bits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 12:32 PM

I don't think the Israelite doors were smeared with blood so the Passover angel could see them better , jim. It was symbolic for them , an exercise of faith for them also , and instructive for then and now.   You may be correct, but doors painted red equals official sanction of possible violence seems stretching it to me. Hardly evidence of a nazi Germany scenario where state and citizens colluded in persecuting Jews . And well done for the demonstration of the lowest form of wit !


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:14 PM

I don't believe for a minute that any commercial enterprise would deliberately encourage vandalism of their property Jim, that argument just doesn't make sense.
Additionally I'm sure everyone in the town knows where the ASs have been housed, they do not need to rely on door colour to find them.

Perhaps you are suggesting that foreign AS should be placed amongst local people one or two per street, but I'm sure that would be very difficult to organise and would involve the decamping of local families.....I don't think the AS would be very happy either as they would probably feel isolated.

As far as I can make out, the houses were empty, then bought and refurbished specially to accommodate these people, that is why there are so many AS housed together.

Do you believe in "bogey men" Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:17 PM

On BBC last night, they were saying that there hade been no attacks on houses or persons in that vicinity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:24 PM

"On BBC last night, they were saying that there hade been no attacks on houses or persons in that vicinity."
Lies and fake photographs then?
Your defence of this deplorable practice would be beyond belief if we hadn't come to expect it.
Ex Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:09 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM

You've had the facts of the matter - the red doors have caught the attention of fascist thugs - there is every reason to remove them, no excuse whatever to leave things as they are.


Yep, I'm sure that removing the doors will improve the security of the asylum seekers . . . NOT!
However, repainting some of them may help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:43 PM

Jim, I'm not defending anything, just trying to be reasonable and illustrate why I think your stance on this issue is flawed.

One should never allow ones heart(or ideology) to rule their head in these matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:22 AM

"Yep, I'm sure that removing the doors will improve the security of the asylum seekers . . . NOT!"
How about allpowing them to be painted a different colour Nige or better still not painting them the same in the first place
The Company policy of refusing to allow another colour speaks for itself.
"I'm not defending anything"
You are defending the continuing singling out of asylum seekers for racist persecution and attacks.
You have not even bothered toi acknowledge that racist attacks have taken place, having previously denied them.
You have placed yourself more to the right than the most right wing of the British national press and you maintain that position
Your behaviour here is unbelievable
Stomach-heaving, to say the least
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:38 AM

In Denmark ordinary non-Jewish people put on yellow stars when their Jewish neighbours were made to (great kids' book by Sandi Toksvig, Hitler's Canary, is one of the fictional places that shows this). Painting your own door and wearing your own wristband would be effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:11 AM

I think a sense of perspective is required.
We assisted in the "democratisation" of the Middle East and North Africa so our government have a duty to clear up a part of the mess incurred......do not act so shocked or surprised if a large section of the population react against this, given the austerity they are being asked to suffer due to a failure of the current economic system.

The uniform painting of the exterior of rented property has never been a means of discrimination, simply business practice.

The response on this forum makes me shake my head in disbelief at the capacity of so many people to absorb media bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:44 AM

"I think a sense of perspective is required."
Now this moves on from a defence of pinpointing asylum seekers to justification of the attacks these doors have caused - getts better and better Ake
This is where it should have been in the first place - they shouldn't be here so lets make it as uncummfortable for them as we can
Jeysus Christos
What kind of a human being are you - if at all?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:56 AM

Jim, I know you are not stupid,
so I can only presume that you are being disingenuous.

Of course I don't support attacks on anyone, but I am not "surprised" when they happen under the circumstances and I do not believe that door colour has anything at all to do with it....I'm sure there are millions of red doors on letting property all over the country behind which dwell all sorts of people.

I can make no sense of the following garble, could you please translate into some sort of point?
"This is where it should have been in the first place - they shouldn't be here so lets make it as uncummfortable for them as we can
Jeysus Christos"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:43 AM

"Of course I don't support attacks on anyone, "
Then why are you putting so much effort into supporting these frontt doors
Are they not dangerous to the inhabitants, have they not drawn teh attention of fascist thugs already
Then you follow your defence with "do not act so shocked or surprised if a large section of the population react against this, given the austerity they are being asked to suffer due to a failure of the current economic system." - explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy - Britain has a shameful record of racism - Moseley, N.F., BNP, and now Ukip - all major players in British politics
Now they are targeting asylum seekers and you are supporting them
If I am being disingenuous - show where these doors are not harmful, show hy they should be there - so far your argument as been "aesthetic choice".
All I have got from you is confirmation of your political stance
Finished here with you - with a very dirty taste in my mouth
Jim Ex Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:02 AM

As I just reminded on another thread

MOSLEY

I know it might seem a piddly point; but posts which avoid unnecessary errors really are more cogent and persuasive, IMO. So might just as well get things right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:17 AM

Jim sincerely, I think you should take a rest, you are posting almost non stop on several threads and your post are becoming more manic by the day.
Everyone is not "out to get you", some of us come here to inform and be informed...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:11 PM

"I think you should take a rest, you are posting almost non stop on several threads and your post are becoming more manic by the da"
At least you are knocking yourself out with answers Ake
Maybe you're too busy thanking your supporters here!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:40 PM

Did I not read , jim, in the link that you supplied , that the doors are now to be repainted in various colours since concerns have been raised. Don't sound like some kind of engineered / provocating of persecution to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:43 PM

Took four years to get there Pete
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:44 PM

And a great deal of adverse publicity
Jim (the Ex again)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:56 PM

Jim, I have to add my comment that you do seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. As I posted earlier if a thug wanted to target asylum seekers I would think looking for red doors would probably not be high on his list of priorities. I do know the area involved, it's not too far from where I live, mindless vandalism is commonplace. Things like paint daubed on windows is an everyday occurrence. If the company that owns the properties decided to repaint the doors any discerning thug would simple target houses with freshly painted doors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:23 PM

I'd just like to say that Jim is dead right and he has Akenhateon bang to rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:20 PM

Seconded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:30 PM

Conspiracy theorists comes to mind here !


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:27 PM

The "usual suspects" comes to my mind.
However I have made my points without rancour and with civility, I don't think they have been addressed satisfactorily by Jim, but I shall leave that to the membership.
Richard's credibility is compromised by his unending personal abuse, neither he nor Steve have made any meaningful contribution to the thread.

I may be wrong, but I do believe I see the green shoots of sanity beginning to appear in these discussions, a couple of years ago this thread would has been drowned in a sea of invective and probably would have had to be closed by admin.....whereas, in the last few days we have succeeded in producing a thread of mostly civil and informative debate

Well done!    Onwards and Upwards!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:03 PM

Up to this point in the thread, "Steve" has contributed a one-word post expressing support for Jim. I seriously don't need a twit like you, who seldom contributes a anything sensible to any thread on any subject at all, calling me a usual suspect for posting a single one-word post. Anyway, I'll tell you what I think. I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government which never criticises Israeli atrocities, which cosies up to the despicable Saudi regime and which allows fat cats to get away without paying tax. We are told that there are bunches of migrants threatening to swarm into the country. The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion. They are nasty and abusive, not even merely thoughtless. If you need to be told that you shouldn't be painting the doors that way or that you shouldn't tell people to wear wristbands in order to qualify for food, there's something wrong with you. One thing's for sure. You haven't learned from the shameful history of the 1930s and 40s. The Nazis made sure that the houses of Jews were instantly recognisable. The Nazis made Jews wear instantly identifiable signs on their clothing. Spot the difference. Civilised people don't do these things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 04:27 AM

"Conspiracy theorists comes to mind here !"
I am really at a loss to understand this - whether or not the identifying of asylum seekers homes was deliberate is totally beside the point - if it was not, it was an act of utter stupidity to single out their homes in this way and it was an act of thick-headed bureaucracy for landlords to refuse to allow painting after it was known that they attracted racist vandalism.
The practice has been universally condemned - even that doyen of fairness and honesty, The Sun, has spoken out against it - it was warned about four years ago, there have been cases of racist vandalism, possibly facilitated by the identifying the homes..... THERE IS A RISK - what the ****'* the problem in making things safer for people who have suffered enough?
Sure - thugs will do there work anyway - why make it easier.
Landlord's policy
Personally, I believe that the red front doors are not unconnected to the now abandoned 'yellow-star type' armbands and goes higher up than landlord's policy, but that's me.
I've come to expect arguments of the type put forward by somebody with Ake's track record on human rights and his declared hatred of anything liberal - but not from any of the more fair-minded and sane members - please!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:17 AM

an act of utter stupidity to single out their homes in this way

But did they?
It was a letting company that had always used the same colour paint.
They were asked to house some asylum seekers and it just never occurred to anyone that there might be an issue with the normal pracatice.
As soon as there was it was dealt with.

Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks.
You wear them in 5* all inclusive hotels!
It would not help anyone if all the food disappeared before those actually entitled to it arrived.

Again, it just never occurred to anyone that it might be an issue, and as soon as it was it was rectified. Cards instead of bands.

It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:44 AM

So you're comparing the wearing of wristbands in luxury hotels with the wearing of wristbands whilst queuing for welfare. Well I for one would not pay good money to stay in an hotel that made me wear a wristband. I might expect to be asked to show my ticket or something like that (rarely, one hopes), but wear a wristband? Anyone in a posh hotel who asked me to do that would rapidly discover that they possessed an unwelcome rubbery circular intrusion inside their jobsworth's bottom. You've been staying in the wrong places. Avoid those Daily Mail last-minute holiday ads is my advice, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:57 AM

It would seem to me that the wristbands were used in case of language difficulties, to aid communication?

That would seem the sensible answer to the dilemma.....but who cares about common sense when there is a political point to score!! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM

Along comes Keith - that confirms it.
How about actually addressing what has been pointed out?
""It was a letting company that had always used the same colour paint."
....who has blocked tenants from repainting the doors after they had been targeted
"They were asked to house some asylum seekers "
They were paid by the Government to house asylum seekers - in this mattter, they are a government agency
"Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks."
Wristbands have now been judged to be discriminatory and have been abandoned - it is not normal practice to make immigrants of any sort to identify themselves - the Nazis forced Jews to wear yellow stars and courts electronically tag criminals.
Asylum is not a "perk" it is a humane gersture offered by civilised countries
It has nothing to do with the distribution of food - from the Guardian
"Asylum seekers in Cardiff are being issued with brightly coloured wristbands that they must wear at all times, in a move which echoes the "red door" controversy in Middlesbrough and has resulted in their harassment and abuse by members of the public."
"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe)
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?
As far as the sewer press are concerned, they would be pushing on an open door - in the past our democratic press have described asylum seekers as "cockroaches", "hordes", "cadgers", "potential terrorists", "freeloaders".
Ir would certainly make the Security Services jobs a lot easier.
So - lets hear it for the red front doors and identification armands again; one - two - three......!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:27 AM

All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands.
There would be long queues at the bars if anyone who turned up was given free drink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

"All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands."
To be worn by all visitors at all times?
Remind me never to stay there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM

I stay in Premier Inns a lot. They are well-known hotels. They never make you wear wristbands. What's up with you, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:33 AM

Asylum is not a "perk"

No it is not, but different rules apply to asylum seekers.
They are not allowed to work or earn money.
They are entitled to free food and accommodation while other people are not.
It is necessary to distinguish them.
Wristbands are the way such a process is usually done.
When it became an issue here, it was changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:36 AM

Do Premier Inns offer different perks to different guests?
If not they do not need wristbands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:02 AM

Jesus wept. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM

Now that I've stopped laughing, why yes, they do. You pay in advance for continental brekky (cheaper) or full works English (dearer), or you don't buy breakfast at all. Do they issue three different colours of wristbands? Why no, they don't. They may (or may not) ask for your room number when you show up. If they ever need to prove who you are (they never seem to need to), you can always show the key card in your pocket. It's called "service," Keith. Clearly, the places you go for your holidays are institutions, Keith, not hotels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM

"They are entitled to free food and accommodation while other people are not."
Why not come out with it Keith and suggest they are electronically tagged - then you wouldn't have to beat about the bush.
The armbands have nothing to do with benefits - they are to identify the wearers as asylum seekers whenever they appear in public - nothing else has been suggested by anyone other than you (one-man campaign again)
They have been judged to be discriminatory and have been withdrawn - you continue to defend them - nothing new there either.
Tell me again that you are not a right-wing extremist - please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:16 AM

By the way
We have stayed in a whole range of hotels over the years in Britain, Ireland, Greece, Cyprus, Sicily, North Africa..... (including The Hilton on two occasions - at Gatwick and in Cairo).
We always do so on the basis of 'bed and breakfast'.
At no time - ever - have we been asked to wear an armband to claim our breakfast in the morning or our 'free drinks' when occasionally offered - never
You are mad
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:18 AM

" Thompson - 28 Jan 16 - 05:38 AM

In Denmark ordinary non-Jewish people put on yellow stars when their Jewish neighbours were made to"


As did the King and Queen of Denmark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:26 AM

My experience too, Jim. This guy really does make stuff up as he goes along. All those except for North Africa and with the addition of Spain and mainland Italy. The only times in my life I've had wristbands were at the Make Poverty History day at the Eden Project and at the Bude For Food festival (to make sure you didn't sneak into the marquee without paying a quid!). In neither case were you obliged to actually wear them. Just shove the thing in your pocket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:31 AM

Perhaps he is mixing up folk festivals and hotels. Wrist band are frequently issued at the former, I've never had one in the latter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:33 AM

Even stayed in hotels in communist Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Soviet Union, Hungary..... (and even fascist Turkey on one - ill-advised visit)
Not an armband in sight.
Says it all really!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM

The emphasis in every hotel I've stayed in on the continent has been on courtesy and service. The one in Turkish Northern Cyprus, though a very humble establishment where the friendly local cats were willing to kip on your bed all night (!), was a shining example. The very idea of a place that prioritises your comfort and wellbeing making you wear a wristband? Do me a favour!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM

All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands.
I have never needed one in a UK hotel either, but both Hiltons in Sharm require them as do the three similar hotels I have stayed in Mexico, and one in Bahamas, Jamaica, and Dominican Republic.

"Wristbands have long been associated with privileges and advantages. When used as a differentiating tool, people sporting wristbands can easily be identified as being part of a group who can be expecting certain benefits from an establishment or event.

Perhaps the biggest evidence of such perk related accessories is when holidaying. Most of us have sat on at least one side of the fence; feeling like the reigning monarch of a resort being showered with free supplies or the dejected soul who would do anything to get their hands on an all entitling wristband.

There has been a rapid rise in the number of people choosing to spend their hard earned days off in resorts and hotels where everything is included in the selling price of the holiday. There are still those who opt for the self-catering variety of break which leaves hotels with a headache determining who is fairly receiving the extra gains on offer.

A great deal of resorts, particularly those in Europe, accommodate for all-inclusive guests, self-catering guests and even holidaymakers who have chosen to go half board. A lot of hotels have
beachfront opening also which means that people not staying in the resorts rooms can also gain access to pools and bars. With exclusive offerings and activities intended only for certain visitors, there becomes a need to monitor exactly who has permission to use select resort assets.

All-inclusive resorts usually grant those guests who are eligible to receive premium service with all inclusive wristbands. By doing so, hotel staff can conveniently recognise who has the right to certain services.
Wristbands are the perfect way to classify advantage tourists"
http://www.aawristbands.co.uk/all-inclusive-wristbands/


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:09 AM

There are "offers" to wealthy clients Keith - not something enforced on impoverished and traumatised immigrants - how dare you make such a comparison you squalid little man?
I repeat - in a lifetime which has included visits to countries in 3 continents - I have never evenb been offered an armband, let alone been forced to wear one.   
You'll be telling us German Jews were wearing yellow stars and sporting armbands for their own benefit next - you really are plumbing the depths of this particular shit-barrel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:23 AM

It is a common way of distinguishing entitlement.
The asylum seekers had such an entitlement and need to be distinguished.

The cards that have replaced the wristbands will cause them more problems.
If they lose the card, how will they claim their food.
How long to get a replacement?
Bands can not be stolen because cutting invalidates them.
Not so cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:34 AM

Don't try to introduce them to common sense Keith....I've been trying for a week but I fear they are incompatible :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:41 AM

Could it possibly be that aawristbands.co.uk have a vested interest in trying to promote the use of wrist bands.

Just asking like ................


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:44 AM

Raggytash..    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM

Omigod. Now he's trying to justify wristbands by referring us to a wristband website. Stoppit, Keith, I can't afford all this laughing now that the corset shop has shut for the weekend...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 12:35 PM

"Don't try to introduce them to common sense Keith....I've been trying for a week but I fear they are incompatible :0("
And then there were two - right wing nutters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM

General representitive view
Have a nice beir keller convention - both of you
Jim Carroll

Guardian
Asylum seeker wristband policy to be dropped
Private firm to stop making asylum seekers in Cardiff wear coloured bands to ensure they receive meals
A private firm that houses asylum seekers will stop making them wear coloured wristbands after the policy was criticised.
Clearsprings Ready Homes, which has a contract with the Home Office to accommodate newly arrived asylum seekers in Cardiff, defended the used of the wristbands but said it was looking at alternative ways of managing "the fair provision of support".
Jo Stevens, the shadow justice minister and Labour MP for Cardiff Central, had said earlier that she had "grave concerns" about the practice at Lynx House in Cardiff.
Forcing asylum seekers, who cannot work and are not given money, to wear the wristbands in Cardiff echoes the recent "red door" controversy in Middlesbrough, when refugees complained that having their doors painted red by G4S, the private firm contracted to house them, made them easy targets for abuse.
Asylum seekers made to wear coloured wristbands in Cardiff
The first minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, said he was appalled at the use of wristbands.
"This is completely unacceptable and goes against everything we stand for as a nation," he said. "My officials had been in touch with Clearsprings about this issue and I expect the Home Office to take action on this immediately. I will be contacting them today to register our serious concerns."
In a statement on Monday, Clearsprings Ready Homes said: "Asylum seekers who spend their initial few weeks at our full-board accommodation in Cardiff have been provided with wristbands since May 2015 to ensure they receive the services they are entitled to and to make sure those more vulnerable asylum seekers have access to their specific requirements.
"As in numerous such establishments where large numbers of people are being provided with services, wristbands are considered to be one of the most reliable and effective ways of guaranteeing delivery. We are always reviewing the way we supply our services and have decided to cease the use of wristbands as of Monday 25 January and will look for an alternative way of managing the fair provision of support."
Advertisement
The Guardian understands that asylum seekers were required to show wrist bands to receive the evening meal on Monday.
The firm said it had been providing such services to the Home Office for 15 years and was "grateful for feedback to help improve the safety and effectiveness of their services".
Stevens welcomed the move but said serious questions about the policy remained unanswered by the Home Office.
She praised the Guardian for raising the issue, and said that following her intervention and pressing from "local asylum seeker groups ... we have secured an end to this crass and unnecessary wristband policy".
"However, there remain serious questions which I'm raising with the Home Office minister about how this policy was allowed to operate in the first place and whether it is operating elsewhere in other Home office temporary accommodation units."
Stevens has been attempting to ask an urgent question in the House of Commons on Monday afternoon and has been contacting the whips' office. Her intervention followed a Guardian report on Sunday that asylum seekers housed by Clearsprings had been told to wear the wristbands at all times or they would not be fed.
It is believed Clearsprings will switch to a temporary manual system for identifying residents entitled to meals. Photo ID cards would be introduced within the next few weeks.
Stevens said on Sunday: "The reported abuse is completely unrepresentative of the kindness and generosity that my constituents and people across the whole of Cardiff have shown to asylum seekers and refugees over a long period of time."
She said she would petition in parliament for an investigation into why the practice had been permitted.

Asylum seekers with red doors in Middlesbrough speak out
Eric Ngalle, 36, spent a month in Lynx House, where initial accommodation is provided for asylum seekers, before he was granted refugee status in November 2015. He is now working as a writer and making a theatre production with the Arts Council of Wales.
"My time in Lynx House was one of the most horrible experiences in my life. I hated wearing the wristbands and sometimes refused to wear them and was turned away from food," he said.
"If we refused to wear the wristbands we were told we would be reported to the Home Office. Some staff implemented this policy in a more drastic way than others. I made a complaint about the wristbands to Clearsprings but nothing was done. We had to walk from accommodation about 10 minutes away to Lynx House to get food and sometimes when we were walking down the street with our wristbands showing.
"On the road we had to walk down there is often heavy traffic. Sometimes drivers would see our wristbands, start honking their horns and shout out of the window, 'Go back to your country.' Some people made terrible remarks to us.
"If you take off the wristband you can't reseal it back on to your wrist so if you want to eat you have to wear it all the time. Labelling them on a daily basis with silver, red or blue tags only serves as a reminder that they are still wearing the garments of an outcast."
Maher, 41, who recently stayed at Lynx House but has now been granted refugee status, said he was angry about being forced to wear the wristband.
"When you walk down the street all the local people who see this brightly coloured band know who we are and where we live," he said. "We feel we are not equal with this community. All the time I tried to hide the band so people could not see it."
Asylum seekers in the UK are not allowed to work or claim mainstream benefits. Some receive a small amount of money or an Azure card to use in supermarkets.
But newly arrived asylum seekers placed in what is known as initial accommodation by the Home Office receive neither money nor an Azure card. They are placed in hotel-style accommodation and given three basic meals a day.
Mogdad Abdeen, 24, a human rights activist from Sudan, spent three months in Lynx House at the end of last year. He has been moved to different accommodation in Cardiff while he waits for a decision on his claim.
"This wristband is discrimination, clear and simple. No band, no food. We are made to feel that we are second-class humans. People in Lynx House are scared of meeting new people in case they see the wristband and give them problems.
'When we complain about the wristbands nobody listens to us,' says Mogdad Abdeen. Photograph: Gareth Everett/Huw Evans Agency
"Sometimes when we are standing outside Lynx House queueing for food people shout out of their car windows 'refugee, refugee'. When we complain about the wristbands nobody listens to us."
When some of the occupants of Lynx House were asked if they were willing to be identified, all refused, saying they were scared they might be punished for speaking out. Instead they agreed to have their hands photographed wearing the bands.
Chloe Marong, the coordinator of the Trinity Centre in Cardiff, which supports asylum seekers and refugees, has expressed concern about the wristbands.
"We have raised concerns about these wristbands with the Home Office and Clearsprings but so far nothing has been done. These wristbands mark asylum seekers out and further stigmatises them in an already very hostile environment," she said.
Adam Hundt of Deighton Pierce Glynn solicitors said: "Concerns about this practice have been raised with us and we have been looking at it. Asylum seekers are a very scared and vulnerable group and the last thing they want to do is stand out from the crowd.
"In some areas it can be dangerous for them to do so, so it is easy to understand how asylum seekers feel they are being branded with these brightly coloured wristbands which draw unwelcome attention to them and make them feel ashamed. It is particularly concerning that wearing the wristbands is linked to whether or not they get food or go hungry. It should be possible to come up with a system to ensure that people are fed without publicly humiliating them and undermining race relations."


Nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM

Jim, don't you realise that this whole petty charade has been orchestrated by the media and they will make a meal of it.
Nothing they print on this non issue has any credibility.

For once in your life use your own brain to work things out.
Keith is perfectly correct, but the media hounds are on the scent of a story, politicians are running scared and truth and common sense are abandoned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:45 PM

I've had an idea this afternoon whilst out for a pint why don't the authorities just tattoo a number on the refugees instead.

I am sure that some people on here would consider that a great idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 04:53 PM

The old red door is turning pink
Not for the reason that you think
Red white and blue or maybe green
Or any color in between
Aint it a shame we're in a mess
Invented by the gutter press
Discussed in pubs and public halls
The diet of the Enet trolls

Please add verses ad nauseum and try not succumb to Godwins Law


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:46 PM

Re..premier inns. They seem to determine which breakfast you have paid for (if you have ) by reference to your room no / key . Always enjoyed breakfast when we,ve stayed there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:19 PM

But no bloody wristband!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:37 PM

"Jim, don't you realise that this whole petty charade has been orchestrated by the media and they will make a meal of it."
Sure - they probably poured the dogshit through the letterboxes too.
Just like Persil, nearly - righter than right.
"Worked it out already - decent people don't support targetting human beings who already have enbough on their plate
Un-be-lieve-able
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:57 AM

Jim's Guardian article.

The contractor "defended the used of the wristbands but said it was looking at alternative ways of managing "the fair provision of support" "

Those entitled to free food do have to be identified.
Luxury hotels use wristbands. So do festivals. What alternative will be better in this case?

Cards can be lost or stolen.
How long will it take to prove identity and get a replacement?
Days?
What will they eat meanwhile.

They were not singled out for this form of ID.
It is the standard form. If it is not appropriate of course it must be changed, but the idea of a government conspiracy is laughable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:26 AM

Exactly.....Even! George Galloway on TV this morning was unable to condemn it, saying that it was common practice at Rock concerts and other public occasions to differentiate between those who had paid for entry and those who had not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:36 AM

"Sure - they probably poured the dogshit through the letterboxes too.
Just like Persil, nearly - righter than right.
"Worked it out already - decent people don't support targetting human beings who already have enbough on their plate
Un-be-lieve-able
Jim Carroll"


Sorry Jim, You've lost me again, why don't you just put down your views in plain English, like Keith does?

I'm not talking about the typos, we all do that, just try to give your views as if we were just other members of this little club.
Sarcasm only works if make it understandable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:45 AM

"The contractor "defended the used of the wristbands but said it was looking at alternative ways of managing "the fair provision of support" ""
Wouldn't they just
The rest of Britain seems to have condemned it, asylum seekers have been harassed because of it, it has been compared widely with forcing Jews to wear yellow stars and it has been abandoned as being both degrading and dangerous - and all you people can come up with is "the contractors say it's ok"
It is a way of tagging people and it has been proven to have put people at risk yet our star super-rights continue to defend the use of compulsory markers to identify foreigners - why am I not surprised.
None of you have referred to te fact that those forced to wear armbands also had red plaques put on their homes - do they do that to festival goers
It has sweet FA to do with "free food" IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE
What next - bells around their necks so we know they're coming?
Jeeze - to pair really have stopped hiding your lights under barrels, haven't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:06 AM

The one bright spot in all of this squalidness is that, if it was a pilot scheme for things to come, it never got off the ground
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:42 AM

The "red plaques" Jim,   You forgot to mention that they were house number plates newly fitted on specially refurbished property.
hat colour of number plate would be acceptable to you....the wristbands were pink by the way.

This whole pantomime carried out by the media is getting beyond a joke!......Who is actually running this country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM

It has sweet FA to do with "free food"

Yes it was. The bands were not given to all immigrants, only those with an entitlement.
Some form of identification is necessary.

IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE

That is the point of wristbands.
They stay on.
At hotels they cut them off when you check out.
No-one else can use them because cutting invalidates them.

They can not be lost or stolen, unlike cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:52 AM

"It is a way of tagging people and it has been proven to have put people at risk yet our star super-rights continue to defend the use of compulsory markers to identify foreigners - why am I not surprised"

Rubbish! It is a way of identifying those who have entitlement not "foreigners"....the majority of immigrants don't have entitlement.
Get a grip, or give it a rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:03 AM

The truth of the matter is, that in pooper areas it is almost impossible for a young couple to get a house, when they see houses being specially refurbished and given to AS for free; they rightly or wrongly come to the conclusion that they are being victimised to serve a political agenda.....this has been happening for a number of years.   the present charade is a media smokescreen to divert public opinion from the real problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM

And what is the "real problem" exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:55 AM

"The truth of the matter is, that in pooper areas it is almost impossible for a young couple to get a house,
Sio it is the Asylum seekers fault for being here - should have said that in the first place and we'd have known where we stood
"At hotels they cut them off when you check out."
I've never been given one in a hotel - ever, and if I was told I had to wear one, I'd piss off to another hotel
What an incredibly stupid statement - wristbands that have to be "cut off" intrusive, unhealthy and probably illegal.
"hat colour of number plate would be acceptable to you"
No plaque put on any house I lived in to identify what I was would be acceptable to me - ever.
"This whole pantomime carried out by the media is getting beyond a joke!."
Probably the truest thing you have ever said.
Whay are you still defending something that has been accepted as being detrimental to the people it affected and has now been abandoned?
I'm delighted you have finally come out of your "send them all back home" closet - makes it all worthwhile - it really does.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:22 AM

The real problem Raggytash, is that our ill considered "liberal" interventions in Iraq and Libya led directly to the rise of ISIS.
From that has flowed the millions of refugees and economic migrants, leaving us obliged to accept feed and house them, while our population suffer under austerity.

This can only lead to racial tensions as the number increase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:36 AM

"leaving us obliged to accept feed and house them"

Good, I am pleased that we can agree on that. Unfortunately there are some on here who would deny that obligation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:41 AM

"The real problem Raggytash, is that our ill considered "liberal" interventions in Iraq and Libya led directly to the rise of ISIS."
So another step nearer - so we send them back then?
"And the big saw came nearer and nearer and nearer and nearer to Vera" (or in this case Ake)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:16 PM

We are obliged to take asylum seekers, not economic migrants from outside the EU. We are not obliged to take so many that law and order may be compromised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:21 PM

"The big saw"?..... could you explain that Jim. Your meaning becomes more obtuse as time goes on.

Have you absorbed the reasons for the door number plates and the wristbands?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:36 PM

Jim, if you stay as an all inclusive guest at a 5* hotel you will have to wear an wristband or you will not receive your entitlement.
I have stayed at eight such hotels in recent years. No exceptions.

Also as I type I am wearing a hospital wristband.
They put a new one on every two weeks when I attend for treatment, and I just leave it on.
Should I feel stigmatised as disease ridden and unclean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:38 PM

"Jim, if you stay as an all inclusive guest at a 5* hotel you will have to wear an wristband or you will not receive your entitlement."
Utter bollocks - We were put up at The Hilton in Gatwick when our filight was delayed - not a yellow star in sight
Can you actually prove this is not something you have invented from your fevered imagination?
"Have you absorbed the reasons for the door number plates and the wristbands?"
Absolutely -as have the people who have been told they were a bad idea and abandoned them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:34 PM

Just an idea Keith, name the 8 hotels and I will contact them to check the veracity of your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:47 PM

The only occasions the identification is requires is actually on the premises and at the times the services (meals, use of private swimming pools, etc.) is required they are not compulsory (usually a confirmation of room-number will suffice), they most certainly do not have to be "cut off" when leaving the hotel, they are not required at any other times, certainly not outside the hotel, and most important of all, the wearing of them carries no risk of abuse, violence or humiliation to the wearer.
This guy is a real nutter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:57 PM

What do you expect from a bloke who does all-inclusive in Sharm El Sheikh? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:30 PM

Utter bollocks - We were put up at The Hilton in Gatwick when our filight was delayed - not a yellow star in sight

I am not aware of any UK hotel needing using wristbands either, but I have stayed at both Hiltons in Sharm and they both issue wrist bands for all inclusive guests.

What do you expect from a bloke who does all-inclusive in Sharm El Sheikh?

The Shark Bay Hilton in Sharm gave us two wonderful stays.
It has a small private beach with the most beautiful coral reef at the end of the jetty, and they provide all the equipment for snorkelling and diving.
If you stood at the waters edge, shoals of tiny, brightly coloured tropical fish would explore your toes.
Such holidays suit my wife and I. She is registered disabled following spinal surgery, and I used to get all my excitement on adventurous training with the army, sailing, climbing, mountaineering, diving, parachuting, expeditions, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:25 PM

Good for you, but Sharm is the new Ibiza, the new Benidorm and the new Costa Del Fish 'n' Chips. Maybe you went before it sold its soul, to be charitable. These days, I'm not that surprised that they want the clientele to wear wristbands. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:32 PM

"Hiltons in Sharm and they both issue wrist bands for all inclusive guests."
Don't give a toss - you claimed it was common practice with British Hotels - iyt isn't and it never has been
These wristbands were compulsory on teh streets of Cardiff - not Sharm or Shark bay.
You are now twisting like the worm you are ans have ben lying to justify the denigration and persecution of Asylum Seekers.
At least Ake has been honest and said he doesn't want them here
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:38 PM

A reminder of exactly what you said
"All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands."
"All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands."
"They stay on.
At hotels they cut them off when you check out."
"Jim, if you stay as an all inclusive guest at a 5* hotel you will have to wear an wristband or you will not receive your entitlement.
I have stayed at eight such hotels in recent years. No exceptions."
You lied
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:46 PM

Jim,
Don't give a toss - you claimed it was common practice with British Hotels

No I did not Jim.
I said this.
Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM
All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands.
I have never needed one in a UK hotel either, but both Hiltons in Sharm require them as do the three similar hotels I have stayed in Mexico, and one in Bahamas, Jamaica, and Dominican Republic.

Steve, on both our stays we never ventured into Sharm itself. Sharks Bay is a couple of miles out.
I am sure what you say is true.
When we had a problem with a return flight we were booked into the Sharm Dreams Hilton for a couple of nights and were disappointed. Both require wristbands.

These days, I'm not that surprised that they want the clientele to wear wristbands. :-)

I assure you it is standard for all inclusive, right up to 5*


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:58 PM

Well bugger that for a game of soldiers. First sighting of a wristband I get, that's me sleeping rough on the Amalfi coast. And why not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:59 AM

Well, the only wristbands I remember ever having to wear were at folk festivals, when I used to attend such to review maybe 30+ years back. Not everyone had to wear one iirc: it was the equivalent of a backstage or press pass to get us into the critics' area. I think the performers had to wear them too -- different-coloured ones -- so that they didn't have to be delayed by Security every time they had to get backstage to perform. Can't remember any of us feeling particularly oppressed.

It seems some hotels in some places may have adopted them as alternatives to the cards or whatever necessary to get one's key from reception on returning from an outing. What's the big deal?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:30 AM

I have always had the bands in addition to the door card or key, but it is over two years now since I have been away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:27 AM

In case of any misunderstanding, I am politically Socialist and socially conservative

"The true path"    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:32 AM

and I need glasses....please remove the above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM

"All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands.
I have never needed one in a UK hotel either, but both Hiltons in Sharm require them as do the three similar hotels I have stayed in Mexico, and one in Bahamas, Jamaica, and Dominican Republic."
You said this finally, when you were cornered
before that you said:
"All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands."
"All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands."
"They stay on.
At hotels they cut them off when you check out."
"Jim, if you stay as an all inclusive guest at a 5* hotel you will have to wear an wristband or you will not receive your entitlement.
I have stayed at eight such hotels in recent years. No exceptions."
You lied, and now you are lying about lying.
"What's the big deal?"
The big deal is that it is asylum seekers who have been targetted because of being forced to wear armbands at all times, not this crap about 5* crap that has been brought in to justify the abhorrent practice, even after it has been abandoned
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 04:36 AM

For the record, I do not approve of immigrants or asylum seekers being in any way identified or identifiable from the rest of the population.

Where people have some special entitlement, there needs to be some way for them to prove their entitlement.
This is usually done with wristbands, but if that causes problems for anyone or is not appropriate for anyone of course another method should be found. I pointed out the advantage of wristbands over ID cards.

I said days ago, "If it is not appropriate of course it must be changed, but the idea of a government conspiracy is laughable."

I do not believe there has been a government conspiracy against these people. There may have been some lack of thought by some administrators.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 04:45 AM

Don't care what you think Keith - your friend has excused those who have attacked asylum seekers and you have lied in your claims of hotel armbands in order to excuse their use.
Whether this was a conspiracy or not is totally immaterial to all this - it was an unforgivable act to mark asylum seekers ot in tehse ways - it is gross vindictiveness in, knowing the effect is has had, to support it in any way - both have you have done this and you should be ashamed, but you never will be .
Over and out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Aggiornamento
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 05:30 AM

Your comparing NAZI yellow stars to UK fraud deterrent wristbands for food/housing & medical benefits for war refeugees? Can't see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 05:40 AM

"Can't see it.
The armbands were not just for food - they had to be worn wherever they went - see links provided on this thread.
Thee evvil was compounded by placing red plaques on houses where they lived, as happened in Asylum accommodation elsewhere - also discussion.
This was a converted plan to identify asylum seekers
The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison - she raised the question of it being a 'pilot scheme' also.
Jim Carrollc


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 05:47 AM

The point about wristbands is that they stay on. They have to be cut off.
Unlike cards, they can not be lost, stolen or exchanged.

They are only visible to others when no sleeves are worn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Aggiornamento
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:04 AM

Seems a bit like comparing Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a nuclear power plant


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:13 AM

Jim,
The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison -

Not true.
The bands were only referred to by Jasmin Aibhai-Brown, 28 minutes in.

She is Pakistani not Jewish and she did not compare them to yellow stars.
She never mentioned yellow stars at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:38 AM

She is British and describes herself as a Shia Muslim. She was born in Uganda. To describe her as "Pakistani" is inaccurate. It pays to be attentive to detail if you wish to criticise what you see as other people's inaccuracies. You have history. Wheatcroft...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:49 AM

"They have to be cut off" - you mean like the hospital ones, not just the rubber festival ones that you can just slip off? Is that what they were? I should like to suggest that there is a significant difference. If you are forced to wear an item that can only be removed by destroying it, I think that's tantamount to assault and an infringement of your human rights. If you can slip it off and put it in your pocket, that's different. The ones I was given at Make Poverty History and our local food fair were put into my hand, not fastened on to my wrist. All I had to do, if asked to show that I'd paid, was take it out of my pocket, as you would with a ticket or a card. I still have them as souvenirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 07:02 AM

I know well what her background is. I am an admirer of her and her work and have often quoted her here.She was born in Uganda but Uganda decided to expel her Asian community from that country.
From her Wiki page,
"describes herself as a "leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Shia Muslim, part-Pakistani"

From an article by her,

"As an Asian woman, feminist, mother, Muslim and lifelong anti-racist,"

"I would never betray British Asians and Muslims, or portray them unfairly. They are my people. "
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2236081/Why-Muslim-mother-I-believe-damaging-hide-truth-Asian-sex-gangs.html

Was Jim right to pretend he thought she was Jewish?
I have discussed her work with him many many times, and he knows very well who she is.
Will you be criticising him for that dishonest description Steve, or just me on entirely spurious grounds as usual?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 07:18 AM

Well let's see if Jim corrects this when he reads the thread. He generally does that when he makes a mistake, as do I and as lots of others do. I've been waiting for several years now for you to correct your egregiously awful mischaracterisation of what Geoffrey Wheatcroft said, despite all my efforts and dozens of denials from you.

Now, Keith, you have just described a woman born in Uganda who's a British citizen as "Pakistani," unqualified. You're not going to dig in again, are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 07:59 AM

Steve Shaw: You have history. Wheatcroft...

A perfect example of the need for anonymous posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:08 AM

I stated a fact. Look it up. Hardly an attack. You're just neurotic. And that's an attack in spite of your anonymity. Wanna call me a Jew-hater again or are you going to bleat that it wasn't you?   :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:14 AM

How many years ago was it?.......It's called stalking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:29 AM

Well it's nice to hear you admit it. Now say you're sorry for indulging in horrid and totally unjustified name-calling from behind your cloak of anonymity, you coward.

How many cases do I need to rest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:41 AM

"A perfect example of the need for anonymous posting"
.,,.
No -- there is no such thing. There is never any need for anonymous posting, other than by those who, to put it at its most favourable, don't mind at least to appear to have some unworthy agenda which they would prefer not to have associated with them.

I appeal to the Mudcat powers-that-be YET AGAIN to go back to forbidding its occurrence.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:46 AM

My comment of 02 Feb 16 - 08:14 AM was referring to your stalking of Keith, but you know that, don't you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:51 AM

No -- there is no such thing.

Yes, there is....to deter stalkers like Shaw and team Musket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 08:59 AM

I find it strange Guest. Steve can be accused of many things, he seems to be intelligent, articulate and reasoned in his posts. Stalking doesn't seem to fit the bill in any way.

PS Just in case you ask, don't know the man, never met him. Should we ever meet I'm sure we could have a pint and a natter in perfect composure without recourse to the bitterness that is sometimes exhibited on here, and yes I know I too have been guilty of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 12:49 PM

I don't think stalking is anything to do with intelligence or articulation Raggytash.....It is certainly a personality disorder, a criminal and vicious one at that!

I am a little surprised at how much of it is allowed here, I think it has something to do with the difference in American and British perceptions......any ideas anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 01:09 PM

Certainly an interesting perspective Akenaton, but perhaps a separate thread to discuss might be appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 02:39 PM

Steve, all of us on this thread know that Alilhai Brown is British, but she is also well known as a prominent member of the Asia community, and those descriptions of herself were given inthe context of a discussion of British Pakistani and Asian culture.

You think Jim described her as Jewish by mistake?
You think he totally misrepresented what she said on the programme by mistake?
You think he said that I claimed wristbands were used by UK hotels by mistake?
He sure makes a lot!
I think that he is just a dishonest man.

Re Wheatcroft, you accused me of partially quoting him, when I had already quoted the passage in full so there was no question of any deception.
It was another example of you making an entirely spurious accusation against me because you can not reply to what I actually say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 03:05 PM

Everybody daft enough to have followed that thread knows exactly what you did, Keith.

By the way, you've been picked up before for the discourtesy of misrepresenting someone's name. You've done it again. It's Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. Do note the spelling and the placement of the hyphen. You clearly and plainly stated that she is Pakistani. She is a British citizen who was born in Uganda. That dies not nuke her a Pakistani. You were mistaken but you won't admit it, glaring though it was. Let's see if Jim comes here to make similar denials, shall we?

You were inaccurate over Wheatcroft, you were inaccurate more than once about Ban Ki-moon and you have been inaccurate over both the nationality and the name of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. It makes one feel that nothing you say may be trusted, Keith.

Incidentally, our welcome anonymous Guest, who accuses me of stalking, has tracked me down on a music thread now and is having a good go over there. He doesn't do irony, does he? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 03:06 PM

Nuke? Make!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 03:20 PM

I sometimes get names wrong, but there is no malice in that and everyone knows who was meant.
You are clearly desperate to find something against me.

Alibhai-Brown herself again.
"Being avowedly a leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani, and yes, a very responsible person, "

Ugandan gets no mention.
British gets no mention, because it does not need mentioning.
Again, you are desperate to get something against me.

No criticism of Jim who called her Jewish knowing that it was a lie because it suited his argument.
No criticism of Jim for lying about what she said.
No criticism of Jim for lying about me again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 03:59 PM

But you're denying it. Let's see if Jim denies his mistake. He hasn't been back since you picked it up. He made a mistake but we don't know yet whether he's going to correct it. He usually does. There are lots of apologies from Jim scattered over a good number of threads. In the last day or two I've had to apologise here once in public and once in private. That always puts the lid on the matter. It's the best way. You made a mistake and, true to form, you're in denial. Can't be trusted, Keith. Same old Keith. She is not a Pakistani, Keith. I mean, how much simpler can it be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 04:09 PM

She is not a Pakistani, Keith. I mean, how much simpler can it be?
She is describes herself as Pakistani, if only half.
She is a prominent member of that community.
I described her correctly, except I called her Jasmin not Yasmin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 04:11 PM

Alibhai-Brown herself again.
"Being avowedly a leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani, and yes, a very responsible person, "http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-jack-straw-is-right-to-ask-hard-questions-about-asian-men-2180318.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 05:13 PM

I refuse to get annoyed with you, Keith. I reserve the right, however, to be extremely amused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 05:18 PM

Ya gots a stronger stomach than me, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 07:32 PM

""Being avowedly a leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani, and yes, a very responsible person"

Once again a very selective cut and paste. The first line of the article states "Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (born Yasmin Damji on 10 December 1949) is a Ugandan-born British journalist and author, who describes herself as ............... "

Makes you wonder doesn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 07:58 PM

It certainly makes you wonder how Keith concluded from a very short snippet of her biography that she's a Pakistani when you consider that he professes to have learned such a vast amount of accurate information from mountains of history books...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Aggiornamento
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 01:11 AM

Red plaques may be so-how-do-you-like-it  "Mark of the Nazarene" backlash. Wristbands, wear a watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 02:17 AM

She describes herself as part Pakistani.
Is she wrong to do that and why is it wrong to accept her own description of herself??

"Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (born Yasmin Damji on 10 December 1949) is a Ugandan-born British journalist and author, who describes herself as a "leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Shia Muslim, part-Pakistani, and

Not Ugandan and certainly not Jewish!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 02:19 AM

You people are just determined to find fault, however spurious, because you have no answer to what I actually say.

No comment on the issue, just personal attacks on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 01:02 PM

Good heavens why hasn't this one been shut down as well? It has after all been round the houses to the point that it no longer has anywhere else to go. There again I suppose they have to leave something alive below the line to accompany that pointless and ludicrous "Mother of all" thread that takes up all that space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 06:10 PM

Don't bother reading threads that get on yer tits, Guest. Therein lies the path to insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM

Therein lies the path to insanity.

Too late!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 16 - 06:27 PM

*wibble*!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 16 - 09:46 AM

"The bands were only referred to by Jasmin Aibhai-Brown, 28 minutes in."
The bands were referred to by a lady from the foor - self - described as Jewish
Do not call me a liar
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 16 - 11:45 AM

Jim, I have just rewatched the whole programme from start to finish, and the relevant section (18-33 minutes) twice.

Alibhai-Brown is the only person who ever mentions wristbands.
No such audience member as you describe appears at all.
Here is the programme.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06zcm4g/question-time-28012016

You did lie, and have compounded that lie with another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:07 AM

Then it was another programme around the same time of the week - I did not watch the entire Question time - I din't watch entire discussion programmes with politicians on unless the politiicians concerned impress me, which the seldom do, or if the entire programme is on a subject I am interested in - which it seldom is
I flicked onto a programe where a lady wearing a Star of David prominantly on a chain was comparing wearing an armband with the experiences of her family - she actually said she had deliberately put it on to ake the point that night.
I occasionally watch Vincent Brown's Forum - might well have been that one.
I really have no need to lie Keith - the practice of FORCING, asylum Seekers to wear armbands AT ALL TIMES has been universally condemned by the press and politicians - I have read one defence of the practice, by a Tory, and saw one, tory again, politician defend it.
Will watch the programme when I get home to make sure YOU are not lying, as you now do regularly, but as I said, I have no reason to lie - which is why I don't - I leave that to those who are mpre practiced at the art.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:08 AM

Were you hoping that the programme would be taken down after a week?
It stays for eleven months. Bad luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 05:39 AM

They are not arm bands they are wrist bands.
Some form of ID is needed to access entitlements.
Wristbands are how it is done in most other circumstances.
They are hidden by sleeves and without sleeves a bracelet, watch or charity band would conceal them.
They can not be lost or stolen, unlike cards which might take days to get replaced.

If people really object, then let them have something different but do not use it as evidence of persecution.
It is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:19 AM

If it's only removable by destroying it, yes it is. There are good reasons for that in hospitals, but not anywhere else. To me, whether you can easily slip the thing off and stick it in your pocket is crucial. If you can't, it's repressive.

I checked that programme too, and Jim made a mistake. It's clear from his last post he's receptive to that possibility and he says he'll check (I can save you the effort, Jim). In contrast, you made a mistake about Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (not only concerning the spelling of her name, which you insultingly dismissed as unimportant, but also in getting her nationality wrong), but you've dug in your heels and won't back down. Keith can never be wrong. That's the difference, Keith. I think you need to stop calling Jim a liar right now, frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 07:01 AM

but also in getting her nationality wrong)

I never referred to her nationality which we all know is British.
I described her as she describes herself.
I pasted in her self description.

That and the spelling of Yasmin were irrelevant to the issues under discussion and just the latest example of you attacking me over spurious claims because you have no reply to my points on the issue.

If the bands could be taken off without invalidating them they could be lost or stolen like cards can be.
They are needed to access daily needs of food and welfare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 07:32 AM

You misspelled her surname too. Then you claimed that it didn't matter because at least we all know who we're talking about. Well it does matter. We need to be sensitive about name spellings in a country with diverse cultures and ethnicities. It's called being respectful. When you were corrected over the form of address for Mr Ban, you ignored it and went on to commit the same error in a subsequent post. You said, without any qualification, that Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is Pakistani, full stop, period, end of. She is a Brit who was born in Uganda. An unqualified assertion that she is Pakistani is laughably wide of the mark. As you were using this to criticise someone else's inaccuracies, it makes it all the more offensive. You clearly don't do irony. Your circumlocutions after I'd challenged you are irrelevant with regard to the fact that you refused to say oops, got that wrong, it was a misleading characterisation. You're a silly man in these matters and it wastes a lot of energy. If you're wrong, own up. Once you've done that, everyone understands and no-one mentions it ever again. Happened to me loads of times. The trouble is, you have form, so this makes all your other assertions appear untrustworthy too. Not the way to carry on, but I suppose you won't be told.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 08:40 AM

Pathetic.
Neither Mr. Ban nor Ms. Alibhai-Brown use Mudcat.
She describes herself as a "leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Shia Muslim, part-Pakistani, "

The threads were not about spellings but issues.
You had nothing to contribute on the issues so resorted to pedantic, nit picking attacks on me personally.
Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 09:09 AM

I've contributed a good number of opinions about wristbands in this thread, Keith, as anyone can see. At last count, ten posts entirely on topic, five slightly sarcastic ones and a good few now about your erroneous characterisations. Ten is not a bad haul, Keith. It makes me one of the biggest on-topic contributors in this thread. It is egregiously ridiculous to claim that I have had nothing to contribute, whether you agree with it or not. What beats me is why you think you can get away with saying such nonsensically untrue things when the thread is here before us for anyone to check. You seem to think we're all stupid or something. As I keep saying, the more you behave like this the less trustworthy it makes all your other assertions on this forum seem. If that's what you're aiming for, fine. Don't let me stop you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 09:11 AM

pedantic
pɪˈdantɪk/
adjective
adjective: pedantic

    excessively concerned with minor details or rules.

Looked in the mirror lately Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:27 PM

" Jim made a mistake. It's clear from his last post he's receptive to that possibility and he says he'll check (I can save you the effort, Jim). In contrast, you made a mistake about Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (not only concerning the spelling of her name, which you insultingly dismissed as unimportant, but also in getting her nationality wrong), but you've dug in your heels and won't back down." - So says Steve Shaw President of the Mudcat Forum Pedants Circle.

He made a mistake and accused Keith A of deliberately lying - Keith A did not lie Fact

Jim Carroll made an error which may/may not have caused offence and hurt sensibilities - he'll check but there will be no apology.

Trouble with Arab/Muslim names there are many ways to spell them - Yet still our resident pedant jumps right in and shakes the incident like a terrier shaking a rat - God help you Shaw if you ever do the same, then we'll hear you squeal if handed the treatment you are now dishing out.

One law for the Gander and another for the Goose is Shaw's way of doing things - His pals can get names, details, facts wrong right, left and centre and not a peep from our Pendant-General.

On the subject of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Keith A only copied how the Lady describes herself and if memory serves the Ugandan-Asians expelled by Amin were stripped of any entitlement to call themselves Ugandan the second they were deported. Now as Yasmin's father was born in India before Pakistan was created and Yasmin was born in 1949 just after the creation of Pakistan - she describes herself, in her opinion as being "part Pakistani".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:33 PM

our Pendant-General

Precisely which part of Steve is hanging down, Bearded Fred?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:49 PM

The mind boggles, GrengF!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:50 PM

But I must remind Guest that I was long ago declared the Official Legendary Pedant...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:59 PM

" Keith A did not lie Fact"
Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving - any takers on that one?
He comared the enforced wearing of armbands at all times to 4 star hotels making customers their customers wear armbands to buy drinks - any comparison from anyone here other than Keith.
I say what I saw - I accept that I may have the programme wrong but that's what I saw
If Keith saw the programme - perhaps he might explain who defended the practice, who they were and why?
As I said, I have no neen to lie - nobody has argued in favour of this practivce of identifying asylum seekers - at best, they say it was a mistake - but most oppose it
Keith has supported it and claimed it to be common practice elsewhere - that is a lie and it is a lie in order to identify asylum seekers and the Jews once were.
My mistake is now eing used as a diversion from that fact as I knew it would be.
"he'll check but there will be no apology."
I always apologise when a mistake is pointed out - please show when that has not been the case - won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 01:48 PM

Well, hateful Guest-coward, 'twas Keith, rightly in my view, who was first accused of pedantry. I'm not aware of anyone going to town on the little mistakes and typos that crop up in most people's posts (I've even had Michael bang to rights once or twice!) Dammit all, the typing in the little white box is so titchy for old peepers like mine. If your English grammar and spelling is a bit below-par you are still entitled to post as long as you try hard, and no-one should have a go at you, as that would be bad form, and pedantic to boot. Insisting on getting people's names right is not pedantry, it's a demand for respect. And, as was so predictable, Jim has fully acknowledged his error. Now, Guest, perhaps you'd care to turn your fire on those who make errors, often repeatedly, then go into denial. Keith shall remain nameless. You should like that.

And this: "On the subject of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Keith A only copied how the Lady describes herself"

... is not true. Here's the whole post from Keith that prompted me to correct him.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:13 AM

Jim,
"The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison"

Not true.
The bands were only referred to by Jasmin Aibhai-Brown [sic], 28 minutes in.

She is Pakistani not Jewish and she did not compare them to yellow stars.
She never mentioned yellow stars at all.


Keith back-pedalled on the bald and highly-inaccurate statement "She is Pakistani..." only after I'd challenged him. He would never had essayed his bungled "corrections" at all had I not done so. Honesty is the best policy, chips.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 01:54 PM

Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving -

No I did not.

He comared the enforced wearing of armbands at all times to 4 star hotels making customers their customers wear armbands to buy drinks

No I did not.

nobody has argued in favour of this practivce of identifying asylum seekers

Neither have I.

Keith has supported it and claimed it to be common practice elsewhere

Ity is common practice elsewhere, but I acknowledged it might not be appropriate in this case.

Jim, you were wrong to claim that you saw it on Question Time, and again when you repeated the claim, waiting a week from the programme when many are deleted.
No apology.
You ask us to believe that it was on some other programme, but offer no substantiation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 02:02 PM

Good heavens Shaw - Jim Carroll said that some "comared" something - that might be hurtful and offend sensibilities.

He said that people were wearing "armbands" when they were wearing "WRISTBANDS".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 02:31 PM

Well I suppose your wrist is a part of your arm. You're clutching at straws, dear boy. Insubstantial errors of that kind made in haste are hardly earth-shattering. In the end, though, explicit lack of respect for people not of your own culture or ethnicity ("it doesn't matter because they don't read Mudcat anyway" sort of thing) has caused endless trouble for this planet.

And Keith, if someone makes a mistake here it's nice if they just acknowledge it. We don't expect grovelling, dirt-eating apologies, so give over being such a big baby and stop demanding one from Jim. And cast ye out the plank while you're at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:16 PM

There is a very significant difference.
Armbands are worn outside the sleeve and mark you out unmistakeably.
A wristband is hidden by the sleeve, and without a sleeve is easily concealed by a watch, bracelet or charity band.

No one was offended by by misspellings.
Mr. Ban and Ms. Alibhai-Brown have made no objection so why should you.
Also, I have been known to misspell Western names too.
Just a spurious excuse to criticise me personally.

And Keith, if someone makes a mistake here it's nice if they just acknowledge it.

He tried to deny he had made a mistake until he was forced to admit it, and even then suggested I might be lying about it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:50 PM

Keith, have you ever acknowledged you have made a mistake unless you have been browbeaten into such a situation... I, and I suspect many others, would answer in the negative to that question.

For instance on another recent thread you espoused the virtues of using a wristband to take advantage of the offers available to those people who had paid for the "privilege" of having a wristband without actually paying for one yourself.

I also suspect you asked for several post to be deleted when this was mentioned. I have no proof of this but I'm sure if I asked the right people the right questions I would get an answer.

I don't know if you have ever defrauded organisations by taking advantage of fraudulently using a wristband in this way, only you and your God know that. But I suspect that someone who would promote such fraud as you did may be susceptible to the possibility.

The bottom line is you are not above condemnation yourself. So before you start casting aspidistras at other people you may, as someone else has already said, want to look carefully in the mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 05:09 PM

"Armbands are worn outside the sleeve and mark you out unmistakeably.
A wristband is hidden by the sleeve, and without a sleeve is easily concealed by a watch, bracelet or charity band."

This is turning into a laugh a minute. I only ever wear short-sleeve shirts. I do not possess bracelets or charity bands (whatever they are - can't see asylum seekers making them a top priority somehow). My watch is a five-quid eBay cheapie that has a narrow plastic band. I suppose that, were I an asylum seeker, I'd have to insist on a subsidised trip to Next and a good jeweller before my wristband was fitted, just so that I could hide it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 04:38 AM

Steve, most of the year you must get very cold outside with just a short sleeve shirt on.
Wristbands are much smaller and more discreet than armbands whatever you wear.

Rag, not one thing in your last post is true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 04:50 AM

"Rag, not one thing in your last post is true" Hmmm OK Keith how's about the following:

Subject: RE: BS: All inclusive holidays
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 03:19 AM

Some excellent tips here on how to take advantage and beat the wristband system in all inclusive hotels.

http://thetravelingwizard.com/cancun-and-the-wristband-economy/


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:02 AM

I did not espouse the virtues of fraud.
I said there were some tips on how it might be done, especially suited for Texans in Mexico.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:11 AM

I suppose that's why you said there were some EXCELLENT tips on how to TAKE ADVANTAGE and BEAT the wristband system.




Incidentally this demonstrates my first point which was you do not acknowledge you have made a mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:12 AM

There is a significant difference between wrist and armbands, armbands are not an issue in this case, and it was dishonestly misleading for Jim to keep describing them as arm bands when they are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:17 AM

I am sure that the tips are excellent.
I do not espouse their use, but it was relevant to point out that bands are not impervious to abuse.

No mistake, like confusing arm bands with wrist bands, or claiming the wrong programme, or claiming I said UK hotels require wrist bands, or claiming that I requested posts be deleted or that mods would take any notice if I did!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:22 AM

I suspect you're not even convincing yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:59 AM

Wrong again Rag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:09 AM

Yes I suppose I am wrong with that last comment. You can convince yourself of anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:11 AM

" Insubstantial errors of that kind made in haste are hardly earth-shattering."

Well for most of the time Shaw you and your pals DtG, GUEST Raggytash; Musket and Carroll seem to think so. But as stated previously - There is one law for the Goose and another for the Gander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:26 AM

For Shaw's benefit:

"An armband is a piece of material worn around the arm over the sleeve of other clothing if present. They may be worn for pure ornamentation to mark the wearer as belonging to group, having a certain rank or role, or being in a particular state or condition. Spring armbands have been used by men to keep overlong sleeves from dropping over the hands and thereby interfering with their use.[1] Armbands may also refer to inflatable armbands used to assist floatation for swimmers."

An Armband (Infamous)

Now here are wristbands:

Event and security wristbands

No comparison or equivalence at all really but Shaw knows that as does everyone else reading this thread, but Shaw does love to argue no matter how ridiculous he makes himself look. His ethics seem to be based on double standards and hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 09:30 AM

Why don't you tell me what you really think? :-)

I do not possess a single long-sleeved shirt of any description. In cool weather I wear a sleeveless gilet (Mountain Warehouse) over a short-sleeve shirt. In cold weather I chuck a waterproof on top. I live in a place where the daytime maximum rarely fails to reach 10°C, even in mid-winter. I estimate that, when I'm out and about, any wristband attached to my person would be visible for all to see on at least 320 days of the year. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 10:20 AM

Steve, some form of id is needed for people receive what they are entitled to.
Wristbands are usually considered a cheap and effective option.
The alternative is cards.

If that is what they prefer, they should have them, but why assume as Jim does that wristbands were deliberately chosen by the government to persecute these people?

That is his whole argument, and you seem to be cheering him on however many falsehoods he states as facts to back his case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 12:48 PM

"Shaw does love to argue no matter how ridiculous he makes himself look."

Here is what Shaw thinks represents the norm in the UK as he spins in ever decreasing circles to support his rather dubious claim that Armbands are the same as Wristbands:

"I do not possess a single long-sleeved shirt of any description. In cool weather I wear a sleeveless gilet (Mountain Warehouse) over a short-sleeve shirt. In cold weather I chuck a waterproof on top. I live in a place where the daytime maximum rarely fails to reach 10°C, even in mid-winter. I estimate that, when I'm out and about, any wristband attached to my person would be visible for all to see on at least 320 days of the year."

Only one word comes to mind - PRAT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 02:12 PM

Told youi I'd be back
First an apology to all
On Tuesday Feb 2nd I wrote
"The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison - she raised the question of it being a 'pilot scheme' also".
It transpires that though I saw the lady say what she said, it is quite likely it was not on Question Time – I was TV surfing while the ads were on and assumed it was Question Time – it was possibly another programme – five days had elapsed between seeing and posting.
1 I apologise for my mistake on two counts:
That it might have created confusion in the minds of people who have difficulties with long postings and big words.
2 That my mistake has given Keith a reason for avoiding the subject of this thread by accusing me of lying.
I don't lie, make things up or distort facts – I see no point in doing so and Keith's and any of his few friends' inept idiocy makes such effort entirely unnecessary anyway
My mistake makes little difference – it was said and I was delighted that a Jewish person empathised with a group of asylum seekers, comparing their position to that of her own family in 1930s Europe; which was basically why I put it up in the first place.
I have since scoured the net to see if any other members of the Jewish community have done likewise– either to give support to the asylum seekers, or to object to the comparison – sadly, they haven't.
A warning for the future to all concerned (no names, you understand);
If you call me or anybody a liar again – ever – I will systematically sort out every lie you have told and every distortion you have made and put them up in full – would probably take me up to Monday to go through the number of times you have claimed, first all hotels in Britain, then all 4 star hotels in Britain, then Hotels in Shark Bay and Sharm el Sheik.... et al, force customers to wear armbands which have to be cut off when leaving.
After that, my choice is endless – WW1, Israel, Ireland, Homs, "all British male Pakistanis"........ all full of untruths and distortions.
May as well start as I meant to continue:
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:59 PM
" Keith A did not lie Fact"
Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving - any takers on that one?Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM
"No I did not."
Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM
"That is the point of wristbands
They stay on. ."
At hotels they cut them off when you check out.
No-one else can use them because cutting invalidates them."

Right – teatime
I'll be back – as Arnie was heard to remark – though he probably doesn't watch Casualty!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 02:25 PM

you have claimed, first all hotels in Britain, then all 4 star hotels in Britain, .... , force customers to wear armbands

Lies Jim. Why not quote me?

WW1, Israel, Ireland, Homs, "all British male Pakistanis"........ all full of untruths and distortions.

I look forward to seeing the quotes Jim, but I will not hold my breath!

the practice of FORCING, asylum Seekers to wear armbands

Wristbands not armbands.

AI hotels that use wristbands do remove them on checkout. (See the link on the holiday thread)
No-one is forced to wear them, but you would not be able to access your entitlement very easily without one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 03:29 PM

I have done Keith - read what I have put up
"I look forward to seeing the quotes Jim, but I will not hold my breath!"
I will PM your quote for fear of having this thread closed,
You have denied making it a dozen times, then, when it is put up, you have blamed somebody else for putting it up to you
If anybody else here would like copies of our PMs, I will be happy to supply them
This goes with anything I P.M. to Keith.
I'm doing this in order to avoid our arguments closing or interrupting this or future discussion - there is no reason, as far as I'm concerned that anybody interested should not see them - if curious, P.M. me.
"Wristbands not armbands."
Makes no difference to a gang of racist thugs wandering the streets looking for victims
Either are identifying markers singling out asylum seekers, which is basically why they were re removed (no forgetting public indignation, of course.
"Lies Jim"
Chapter one
"Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks.
You wear them in 5* all inclusive hotels!"
"All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands.
There would be long queues at the bars if anyone who turned up was given free drink."
!"Yes it was. The bands were not given to all immigrants, only those with an entitlement.
Some form of identification is necessary.
IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE
That is the point of wristbands.
They stay on.
At hotels they cut them off when you check out.
No-one else can use them because cutting invalidates them.
They can not be lost or stolen, unlike cards."
NO HOTEL HAS EVER INSISTED THAT GUESTS WEAR ARMBANDS AT ALL TIMES WITHIN OR OUTSIDE THE PREMISES - EVER; NO HOTEL WOULD DARE - NO CUSTOMER WOULD CONTEMPLATE BEING FORCED TO WEAR AN ARMBAND THAT HAD TO BE CUT OFF - EVER
These claims are all made up la-la fantasy - can you provide links to examples of this compulsion ever being used in hotels in Britain
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:07 PM

Question.

Am I alone in noting that certain members are not participating in the defence of the undefendable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:11 AM

The argument/ discussion has long since been won by Keith and others who support his views on the matter.
Pointless to keep repeating what should be obvious.
I presume Keith only persists to refute the distortions.

The main point of the thread was to prove a conspiracy theory, all sensible people reading this thread will have come to the conclusion that such a stance is nonsensical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:51 AM

"The argument/ discussion has long since been won by Keith and others who support his views on the matter."
No it has most certainly not been - nobody other than your gang has bothered to stay around and none but you band of brothers has expressed support for this vile and now abandoned practice - that's the way these arguments go.
Neither of you has addressed the compulsory nature of these non-electronic identification tags, and you have ignored the
and neither have you even bothered to acknowledge the affect they had on the people forced to wear them.
You appear to be claiming victory on peoples' silence here as Keith has done elsewhere on other subjects.
The practice, along with that of putting identification plaques and painting doors a single colour has been universally condemned by all but the extreme right (such as yourselves).
You, at leas, have made it clear that your sympathy lies with the racist vandals rather than the asylum seekers
"The truth of the matter is, that in pooper areas it is almost impossible for a young couple to get a house, when they see houses being specially refurbished and given to AS for free; they rightly or wrongly come to the conclusion that they are being victimised to serve a political agenda.....this has been happening for a number of years.   the present charade is a media smokescreen to divert public opinion from the real problem."
Keith has yet to come out of his closet and blame the Asylum seekers for their predicament.
Hi La-La world of hoteliers forcing their customers to wear armbands that have to be cut off, in order to be fed is the only defence he has put up for this disgusting practice - it has been shown to be both dehumanising and dangerous for the wearers, it has been abandoned and is only defended now by those who have defended similar examples of abuses of human rights in the past.
You want to argue Ake - address the reality of the situation.
These Asylum Seekers have fled regimes who routinely persecute and threaten only to be met with the similar persecution and threats from our own home-grown thugs.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:18 AM

It is common practice in hotels, certainly those I've stayed in in the Mediterranean, to issue non-removable WRIST-bands (not ARM-bands, Jim - stop pretending to be thick) to guests who are staying with them on an 'All-Inclusive' basis. They are similar to the wrist-bands which UK hospitals put on in-patients. They denote the entitlement of the wearer to the benefits of 'All-Inclusive' terms, which are not available to guests who are staying on other bases. They can't be removed and replaced for reasons which are obvious but, since some seem incapable of understanding, I'll explain - it's to stop A-I guests 'lending' them to non-A-I guests in order for the non-A-I guests to avail themselves of benefits to which they are not entitled. At the end of the wearer's stay, the wrist-band is easily removed by cutting with scissors.

This is fact - I have witnessed it, and discussed the purpose and use of these wrist-bands with A-I hotel guests many times in the (mostly Greek/Cyprus/Corfu) hotels I've stayed in.

Using any kind of visible indicator, be it a badge, wrist-band, arm-band or a fucking tattoo on the forehead, to indicate membership of any social or socio-economic group, and evidencing entitlement to benefits allocated to those groups clearly would lay the wearer open to abuse by those who resent those groups and, IMO, the very idea is to be deplored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:54 AM

"I've stayed in in the Mediterranean, to issue non-removable WRIST-bands (not ARM-bands, Jim "
We're not talking about the Med, this is about Cardiff - about as far away as you can get from Crete.
At no time have we encountered the practice of asking guests to wear wristbands at anytime, at the bar or anywhere in a British or Irish hotel - never - and this includes the few highly starred hotels like the Shelbourne in Dublin or the Hilton at Stanstead, we have stayed in.
I agree with your final sentence wholeheartedly but would add that the act of forcing asylum seekers to wear identification tags of any form, openly or covered by clothing places them at risk.
Sure - if they need to produce identification for official purposes or to obtain services - no problem - we are all in this situation, but this is different.
These people are already open to abuse and attacks, and many have been traumatised by recent experiences, without adding to their problems.
There have been cases of actual and threatened abuse taking place, the pracices of marking homes with plaques, same-colour front doors and the forcible wearing of identification at all times has been abandoned as an obvious thread - it seems sheer, bloody-minded inhumanity to continue to defend those practices.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:39 AM

Jim, wristands are the standard way hotels identify AI guests.
UK hotels do not offer such holidays.
Everything I said on the subject was true.

Your pm quoted me describing an over-representation of a demographic in a certain crime, which is well established and not a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:27 AM

"UK hotels do not offer such holidays"

Wrong Again


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:48 AM

"Jim, wristands are the standard way hotels identify AI guests."
Not in Britain they're not - in any circumstances
If there is any doubt of what you are entitled to you are politely asked to identify yourself by your room number, which is checked by your name.
"Everything I said on the subject was true."
No it wasn't - it was total fantasy and had it been true, has nothing to do with yte attempted identification of impoverished asylum seekers (unless you are suggesting they should be housed at The Ritz!!)
"Your pm quoted me describing an over-representation of a demographic in a certain crime,"
Your response to a tiny number of crimes against underage girls was to describe it as due to a "cultural implant"
No here Keith - happy to provide the whole kit and kaboodle to anybody interested.
Don't call me a liar again or I will put up more.
Address the points made - no your Alice in Wonderland fantasies.
Off with his head!!! (whoops sorry Mike - wasn't that Alice Through the Looking Glass?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:59 AM

No, you had it right, Jim -- it was the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland, not the Red Queen in Looking-Glass Land. She was the one who declared, when Alice said she had lost her way, "I don't know what you mean by your way. All the ways round here belong to me": which, if has ingeniously been suggested (see Wikipedia &c) is a reference to the fact that the Queens are the only chess pieces that can move as far as possible in a straight line in any direction.

≈M≈

One must beware of over-interpreting the 'Alice' books; OTOH, Dodgson/Carroll had something of the same reputation of my o-so-humble self, as being something of an

Official Legendary Pedant

≈M≈ OLP


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:44 AM

"No, you had it right, Jim --"
Must brush up on the classics {mind you the present series of 'War and Peace' has saved me a large slice of my life! Probably would never have managed it)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:45 AM

Jim, I started to re-read the whole thread to try to find where your nemesis had claimed specifically that UK hotels use wrist-bands in order to differentiate between classes of customer, or earmark customers who are more- or less worthy than others, but I began to lose the will to live, such is the level of bollocks, bullshit and plain, straightforward Terry-Fuckwittedness flying around.

Could you point me to the post in which he made that claim please, as my perception has been throughout that he was referring to **some** hotels of which he has experience, but which are not necessarily in the UK. Even though you may not have come across wrist-bands issued by hotels to denote specific classes of guest, you have my absolute, firm assurance that I have - although these have been in hotels in Mediterranean holiday resorts, not in the UK.

On the subject of identification of certain classes of UK immigrant who may be entitled to certain benefits, would it not be acceptable to issue such persons with a 'credit-style' card, along the lines of the Driving Licence Photocard? Clearly, such people might need to be able to prove their entitlements from time to time, what would the problem be with such a card?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:53 AM

"On the subject of identification of certain classes of UK immigrant who may be entitled to certain benefits, would it not be acceptable to issue such persons with a 'credit-style' card, along the lines of the Driving Licence Photocard? Clearly, such people might need to be able to prove their entitlements from time to time, what would the problem be with such a card?"

Ah an I.D. Card no-less - Didn't the "liberal-left" find those objectionable too and an affront to civil liberties?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 09:26 AM

There is a big difference between being forced at all times to carry an ID card with tons of data on its strip and carrying a simple means of identifying yourself in circumstances where you may be asked to confirm who you are. I can use the bus for free - as long as I show my bus pass (which has my fizzog beaming from it). When I go to the Eden Project, if I don't want to pay the entry fee I have to show my annual Locals' Pass. If I want a third off my rail fare I have to show my Senior Railcard. It should not be beyond the wit of the powers that be to devise a cheap, simple and discreet way for asylum seekers to show that they are entitled, without stigmatising them into the bargain. Yes a compulsory ID card is an affront to civil liberties. The non-removable wristband is much more akin to that than anything Backwoodsman suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 09:38 AM

"had claimed specifically that UK hotels use wrist-bands in order to differentiate between classes of customer,"
He hasn't, as far as I know - in fact he hasn't given a reason for his comparing the situation of Asylum Seekers with that of 5* hotel customers (nor has anybody)
He began by referring to it as "common practice" in British Hotels then retreated to "Sharm" (el Sheik, presumably) and Shark Bay (haven't bothered to look that one up).
Quite honestly, I have no interest what hotels do - I've travelled fairly widely in Britain, Ireland, Europe, North Africa, and a couple of times, into Asia (though not far in) -
At no time have I experienced enforced armbands not even in the half- dozen ex-Communist countries I visited - though I am willing to bow to the experience of those who have.
My point throughout is that none of this has the slightest to do with asylum seekers being laid open to humiliation, abuse and even violence.
The practice has been, rightly discontinued - Britain's reputation regarding how we behave towards foreigners is, in my opinion, bad enough, without these people adding to it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 11:05 AM

I haven't experienced enforced armbands either, Jim. But I have experienced wristbands that All-Inclusive guests are issued with - not in the UK hotels I've stayed in, but definitely in Greek/Corfian/Cypriot/Cretan hotels. In all honesty, I can't swear that wearing those is compulsory, but they are very definitely issued for ease of identification of A-I guests in the restaurants, bars and other hotel facilities.

So, if your nemesis hasn't specifically mentioned wristbands being used in UK hotels, why do you keep prattling on interminably about them in UK hotels - presumably it's a manifestation of your OCD where he's concerned? (To be fair, I think he's also OCD where you're concerned, so you're both as bad as one another AFAIC).

BUT....I completely agree with you in respect of the humiliation and abuse of immigrants/asylum-seekers, and I'm convinced that a simple card similar to a driving licence or buss-pass is a suitable solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 11:56 AM

"So, if your nemesis hasn't specifically mentioned wristbands being used in UK hotels,"
He started of by saying "all hotels" then reduced it to 5*star ones
In my opinion, it's totally ludicrous to compare 5* customers to asylum seekers - but that's Keith!!
To compare what happens in Middlesborough and Cardiff to luxury Hotels in Israel is just malicious stupidity.
His classic, paints a picture of *5 customers huddled together in a starving bunch because they's lost their armbands - a sort of bizarre remake of Bunuel's 'Exterminating Angel'.
"Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks.
You wear them in 5* all inclusive hotels!
It would not help anyone if all the food disappeared before those actually entitled to it arrived."
This is an exercise in tagging asylum seekers - the way it was done was found to be degrading and dangerous so it was abandoned (after nationwide protests).
Keith and Ake continue to defend it - this has nothing do do with how 5* hotels operate, neither did Keith's starting a new thread on 'all-inclusive-holidays - it has everything to do with how we treat asylum seekers.
Ake let the cat out of the bag with his gesture of understanding for those who target asylum seekers and all immigrants - none of which he has ever offered to their victims.
Those who wish to defend this practice need to do so on the basis of what is happening on the streets Britain - not on what happens in 5* hotels on the other side of the planet - little sign of it here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:09 PM

He started of by saying "all hotels" then reduced it to 5*star ones

His first post in this thread is 29 Jan 16 - 06:17AM. He says

"Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks.
You wear them in 5* all inclusive hotels!
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:17 PM

Comprehension of the written English language has never been a strong point of Jim Carroll's. He only sees and reads what he wants to see and read and he never lets actual fact get in the way of whatever myth he happens to be peddling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:18 PM

I'll not pay hundreds, or thousands, of pounds to go to a holiday venue where they fasten non-removable wristbands on people. I understand from a mate of mine who's much given to going on cruises that certain cruise companies insist on frisking your bags every time you re-board the ship in case you're trying to smuggle onboard the cheap booze that you bought onshore, presumably to force you to buy the grossly-overpriced stuff they sell onboard. When I pay out good money to go on holiday, I'm paying to go on a free-and-easy holiday, not a bloody boot camp run by little Hitlers, thank you very much. Asylum seekers are usually doing the very last thing they want to be doing, often people who have lost everything. We must treat them with kindness, not make them look and feel like criminals. Which is exactly how I would feel if I had to flash my wristband to get my all-inclusive dinner or if I were being frisked for booze that I've bought perfectly legally. Cheeky bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:21 PM

Tiresome, mealy-mouthed, empty sniping, Guest-coward. Just grow up, will you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:27 PM

"I understand from a mate of mine who's much given to going on cruises that certain cruise companies insist on frisking your bags every time you re-board the ship in case you're trying to smuggle onboard the cheap booze that you bought onshore, presumably to force you to buy the grossly-overpriced stuff they sell onboard."

So it would have nothing whatsoever to do with International Maritime Organisation ISPS Code 2003 requirements then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:39 PM

Steve Shaw - 07 Feb 16 - 12:21 PM

Not at all Shaw merely stating an observation on the obvious, but here we have the rules for Goose and Gander again - no baying pack climbing all over Carroll's back pulling him up on his false inaccurate made up quotes.

Or do you really actually think that "all hotels" is the same as " all inclusive hotels" - Personally I read quite a difference in comparing the two. It was you who once banged on about the importance of education wasn't it Shaw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:48 PM

Nope, nothing to do with that. Different cruise companies have different policies. Look it up before you post your nonsense. Regard your research as part of your education. And the post I commented on was pure sniping with no substantive content. My comment made no reference to Jim or to anyone else. You are just bitter and twisted about something or other, you poor soul. Just off to put my risotto on. See you later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 01:15 PM

"Different cruise companies have different policies."

IMO ISPS Code 2003 happens to be mandatory Shaw and requires searches on any baggage taken ashore and then brought back onboard. But as you have never taken such cruises you'd best ask your mate or better still do a bit of research as part of YOUR education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 01:29 PM

So, are we all agreed that a 'Bus-Pass-style' photo-card, which could be kept out of view until required to be shown, would be an acceptable means for those immigrants/refugees/asylum-seekers who are eligible for certain necessary 'benefits' (like food to keep them and their children alive!) to assure the providers of those 'benefits' of their eligibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 01:39 PM

Absolute nonsense. I've been on many mini-cruises, always bought a few bottles of El Coto Rioja ashore and no-one has ever checked my bag or anyone else's. Look up the different cruise companies' booze policies on Cruise Critic, why don't you. Mind you, my making you red-faced isn't going to help your demeanour, so I suppose we'll get even more of your frustrated ill-temper. Excuse me, time for the mantecura...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 01:44 PM

Yes of course.
Wrist bands would be much simpler, cheaper, and quicker to replace if lost, but if that makes them vulnerable then obviously something else is required.

There is certainly nothing to judtify Jim's claim that this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 01:46 PM

My "Yes of course" was agreeing with Bwm before Steve's post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 02:45 PM

Well I wouldn't want you agreeing with me. As for cheaper, well if we can afford HS2, Trident, bankers' bonuses and massive tax perks for big corporations and non-dorms, we can well afford a solution for asylum seekers that doesn't demean them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 02:46 PM

Non-dorms? I wasn't referring to the bedroom tax. Let's say non-doms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:02 PM

"Comprehension of the written English language has never been a strong point of Jim Carroll's"
And common sense doesn't seem to be yours
If you are talking about how asylum seekers are being treated on the streets of cardiff, you don't expect their lot to be compared to 5* Star hotels anywhere
Elsewhere he has written:
Keith A of Hertford - PM   Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM
"All hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" use wrist bands.". - "all" hotels where - Ulan Bator, maybe?
Or aren't there "hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" in Britain?
The reference was to "All hotels"
If you can't be intelligent, why not try to cover up your ignorance by being nice?
Little wonder you wish to remain anonymous - why do all of you sound like Bearded Bruce - he's ashamed of his identity too..... now that I think on it....!
"Jim's claim that this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers"
I claim no such thing - I do not discount the possibility, politicians being what they are.
Far too many coincidences to be ignored - armbands, plaques, red front doors, Tories leaping up to defend the practice - and to top it all - you and Ake - two of our most enthusiastic establishment arse-lickers.
There have ben numerous calls for enquiries on both the armbands and the front doors - yet you and your little Klan of Brothers still support the practices.
Where have I ever claimed that "this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers!"
I said it might have been a pilot scheme to tag them in some way - that is nott persecution - it is identifying them apart from the rest of the population - tagging them, in fact.
Stop making things up - honesty is not a word that springs to mind when describing you as it is.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:44 PM

Or aren't there "hotels offering 5* "All Inclusive" in Britain?

No. There are not Jim.

The reference was to "All hotels"

No. The reference was to "All hotels offering 5* All Inclusive"

Where have I ever claimed that "this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers!"

In all these quotes Jim!!

"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."

"explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy - Britain has a shameful record of racism - Moseley, N.F., BNP, and now Ukip - all major players in British politics
Now they are targeting asylum seekers and you are supporting them."

"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe)
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?

(Steve)
"I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government..... The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:51 PM

I will thank you for not using quotes of mine out of context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:53 PM

Can someone make sense of the last post please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:54 PM

The last post by Keith A of Hertford.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:02 PM

Where can I get a free meal if I wear a Mudcat teeshirt?

Will it stop Jehovas Witnesses calling if I have a red door?

Just wondered


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:16 PM

There's no such thing as a free lunch. And don't worry about Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm a rabid atheist (ask Joe Offer), but our local Jehovah's Witness is a lovely old boy who walks round my garden with me and who I give big bags of apples to. He knows he hasn't got a chance with me, but I always take the Watchtower, promising that I'll read it, which I always do. I'm just as nice to the Christians around here, but, unlike my JW friend, they're all bitter and defensive. What can you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:16 PM

I got one so frustrated with my answers to his questions that whilst scrunching his watchtower he calle me "a ffffff optimist"
BTW he didnt say the "f" word but he really wanted to
I always say "its the thought that counts"

Drunk to police constable " you're an eejit"
Const to drunk "I can book you for calling me an eejit"
Drunk to Const "can you book me for thinking?"
Const "no"
Drunk "then I think you're an eejit"

The old one are the best & thank Christ you're not of them Christians


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:27 PM

I'm an atheist, thank God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:01 PM

WTF is the connection between wristbands that prove entitlement to champagne and caviar treatment in 5 star hotels and armbands that require asylum seekers to identify themselves as such to be entitled to the means of survival.

I suppose the next step would be people who have just been made redundant (as I was two years ago) to identify themselves as skivers in order to sign on (as I did for 5 months - 3 of them not to get benefits but to get my NI stamp paid ).


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:23 PM

Couldn't agree more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:00 PM

"No. There are not Jim. "
Yes there ***** are 4* hotels offering 5* All Inclusive holiday" Bed and Breakfast Spa, local trips... Hadrian's Wall, Anne Hathaway's Cottage, Tower/St.Pauls/West End Theatre tickets, Tower of London...... all extra to a night's stopover.
The Hotel we stopped in in Bayswater a few years ago offered trips as far as Stratford on Avon and a swimming pool in the basement.
Weekly holidays taking in Queens or Wimbledonor The Six Nations or the Football Final, or Lords.....   
Are you totally insane - please try not to be more stupid than we already recognise you to be.
"No. The reference was to "All hotels offering 5* All Inclusive" "
As I asked, where - Ulan Bator?
We were talking about Cardiff - you were comparing British hotels.
"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."
The authorities were warned about the dangers of pinpointing asylum seekers four years ago
No reference to "persecution"
"Explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy.
A reference to Ake's support for racist attacks by disaffected Brits
No reference to "persecution"
"Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe) "
Which is exactly what he did
No reference to "persecution
I'm not answerable to anything Steve claims – you accused me – dipstick!
I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?
Our democratic press has been laying the anti-immigration ground for the most of my life, May has already announced her intention to clamp down on asylum rights.... knowing where asylum seekers are would guarantee a policy of sending them home a smooth passage - no persecution needed - just send them back where they came from as soon as possible - an election winner if ever there was one.
Ukip hasn't even had to go to the bother of developing a national policy - "hate the foreigners, especially that lot in Brussels" will do very nicely thank you.
Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm.
Do not accuse me of suggesting something I have not suggested - you stupidly desperate little turdule.
I repeat what I wrote:
"It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?"
No persecution - just identifying and tagging to make things easier should it become necessary.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:05 PM

"Can someone make sense of the last post please."
Steve pointed out what I just did
Don't attribute what he said to me.
I know it's hard, but try to keep up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:09 PM

Jim,   your long response to my point is confusing. I haven't claimed anything, apart from my personal circumstances.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:15 PM

Blimey, I'm confused. Am I not the Steve referred to by Jim then? <>boggle


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 11:32 PM

Media affected baboon grunting get your banana, try Jesus instead


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:43 AM

"I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that."[itals added]

.,.,,.

Yay -- 'may have been' indeed. But OTOH they 'may have been' planted by Martians in flying saucers visiting in the stilly watches of the night...

Just coz you're paranoid, as they say, don't mean the buggers ain't out to getcha!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 03:44 AM

MGM... :0)   nice one!!

Jim..."armbands" were wristbands, the difference has already been explained.
The "red plaques" were door numbers, why do you continue to call them "plaques"......does it sound more in keeping with your CT?
The "red doors" were company policy, just as the doors of our council houses were at painted green......of course the Rangers supporters thought that was a conspiracy too!! :0)

I am amazed that you can continue this nonsense.

BTW ""Explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy.
A reference to Ake's support for racist attacks by disaffected Brits"

Could you please explain this slur, I have never supported racist attacks by anyone.   Being against unregulated immigration is not a racist attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:09 AM

"I haven't claimed anything, apart from my personal circumstances."
Sorry Steve (SPB) - I was responding to a different Steve, who wrote:
"I will thank you for not using quotes of mine out of context."
Keith appeared to be thrashing around for examples to justify his crassness, so he attributed something that Steve Shaw said to me.
I intended to compliment you for your concise summing up (got engrossed in my own erudition) - my thoughts exactly.
I've always been a great believer in Angela Davis's, "If they come for you in the morning, they'll come for me in the night".
In this case, if they can force identification on asylum seekers, why not all immigrants, and then, who knows which of us will be subject to producing identification papers, or stop-and-search....
If it can be a daily occurrence for the lads in Brixton, why not for the rest of us?
"But OTOH they 'may have been' planted by Martians in flying saucers visiting in the stilly watches of the night.."
You would say that, wouldn't you, coming from where you do politically Mike - after all - it couldn't happen here - and nobody would dare to try foisting identification papers on all of us, would they!!!
THINKING THE UNWORKABLE
Some people never learn from the past, do they - that's why it keeps coming back to bite us in the bum?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:22 AM

Jim, I did not attribute Steve's quote to you. I gave his name and he claimed it was out of context.

There were enough quotes of you suggesting government was deliberately persecuting these people, as a "pilot scheme" to persecute "all immigrants."

I was not making a comparison between wealthy vacationers and asylum seekers, just pointing out how common such use was.

The thread title compares these wrist bands to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:24 AM

Jim, I did not attribute Steve's quote to you. I gave his name and he claimed it was out of context.

There were enough quotes of you suggesting government was deliberately persecuting these people, as a "pilot scheme" to persecute "all immigrants."

I was not making a comparison between wealthy vacationers and asylum seekers, just pointing out how common such use was.

The thread title compares these wrist bands to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany.

(And if you know of a UK hotel offering "all inclusive" please give details.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:25 AM

"im..."armbands" were wristbands, the difference has already been explained."
And responded to - and ignored by you, it seems - but one more time - doesn't take half a brain for a rambling racist thug on the look-out for someone to find a wristband, if he is so intent, but it takes more than that to work out that fact, apparently.
"he "red plaques" were door numbers" which identified that asylum seekers were living there.
"The "red doors" were company policy, just as the doors of our council houses were at painted green"
Which again, identified asylum seekers - the policy was abandoned as being detrimental to their welfare and abandoned by all - but you, it seems.
"I am amazed that you can continue this nonsense."
And I'm amazed you continue this viciousness long after the rest of the world has accepted the detrimental nature of these practices and moved on - no - I lie - I'm not in the least bit amazed!
"I have never supported racist attacks by anyone."
You have empathised with the people who have made those attacks.
We have all been victims of right-wing Government policy at one time or another - most of us don't blame immigrants or dole scroungers who don't want to work for it.
We certainly don't defend the bastards who brought the country to what it has become because of continuing right-wing policies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:30 AM

Paranoia is grist for the media mill.
The result is the chaff you get in Mudcat --- BS = BULLSHIT


Just a thought
Its a pity we don't have smileys / grumpys which could be mandatory in the completion of a post in place of the submit message box


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:46 AM

"You would say that, wouldn't you, coming from where you do politically Mike - after all - it couldn't happen here - and nobody would dare to try foisting identification papers on all of us, would they!!!"
.,,.

WHY 'would' I? Don't follow your reasoning at all.

ID papers? -- so what if? No big deal to one of my generation. We all carried them around with us during WWii & nobody died of it so far as I recall. I've told on here before of the visit of the King & Queen to my N London school to inspect the damage when it got bombed in the Blitz in 1940 (I got months off school -- ill wind, innit eh!?). First thing Their Majesties did on arrival was formally to produce their National Registration Identity Cards for the inspection of the Mayor of Hendon who was ic the proceedings. I've still got my NRIC somewhere. Just a harmless light cardboard souvenir of my early life. It hasn't ever yet burst into flames and burned the house down.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:14 AM

"WHY 'would' I? Don't follow your reasoning at all."
Thatcher supporter - what else would you think Mike - after all, she made the trains run on time, didn't she?
"No big deal to one of my generation"
That's why those who followed Michael Howard dropped it like ma warm turd
I wouldn't trust the people who battered down striking miners, laid Blair Peach's head open on the corner of a wall, or let the killers of Stephen Lawrence go free (and be found "institutionally racist" by their own enquiry).... demand my identity card at a whim
Mrs T was happy to use our Boys in Blue as her private strike -breakers, and was poised to move in the army, (and shortly afterwards describe a mass-murdering dictator as 'her kind of democrat' - that's the reality of my generation, my middle-adulthood, in fact.
The armbands have been compared to the Yellow Stars pretty widely - even by the rightest of the right-wing press - ok with those here, it would seem.
"Its a pity we don't have smileys "
Easier to smile than actually to respond with actual argument.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!😎
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:38 AM

🙈🙊🙉

😫🔫

💩


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM

What else would I think about WHAT, Jim? You've lost me. Our trains ran pretty efficiently after privatisation without her [or Benito's] put-in, at that. If you resent producing an identity document coz the copper who asked might just have been the one who clobbered poor Blair Peach 37 years ago, you are one poor mixed up old pusskat, I'm afraid. & if he asked your name for any reason, would you just make one up? Or refuse to produce your driving licence if involved in any sort of traffic incident? You are getting carried away on one of your rhetorical wottiff·worst-case-scenario flights, you know! They're quite entertaining, so don't stop!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:14 AM

Michael, I would think that the ID Card you once had carried limited information that could be read by anyone. Name, address, national insurance number etc.

I would have though today all information would be encrypted to be read on a scanner this could easily be used to carry information of, for example, previous convictions, politic persuasion, sexual preference, the colour of your bog roll, if your cousins a drag queen etc etc without you or I being able to ascertain what was collated there.

A different kettle of fish entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:29 AM

That's exactly the point I was trying to make yesterday.

There is a big difference between being forced at all times to carry an ID card with tons of data on its strip and carrying a simple means of identifying yourself in circumstances where you may be asked to confirm who you are. I can use the bus for free - as long as I show my bus pass (which has my fizzog beaming from it). When I go to the Eden Project, if I don't want to pay the entry fee I have to show my annual Locals' Pass. If I want a third off my rail fare I have to show my Senior Railcard. It should not be beyond the wit of the powers that be to devise a cheap, simple and discreet way for asylum seekers to show that they are entitled, without stigmatising them into the bargain. Yes a compulsory ID card is an affront to civil liberties. The non-removable wristband is much more akin to that than anything Backwoodsman suggested.

Incidentally, there is no law that obliges you to carry a driving licence or any other form of identification. Long may that remain so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:05 AM

"What else would I think about WHAT, Jim? "
About the idea that our governments might be prepared to demand we carry identity cards and misuse their access to the information they carry -
You aren't really as obtuse as you are being here, are you?
Politicians are not to be trusted with this information, neither are the forces of "law and order" - recent past events have shown that over and over again.
To date, Thatcher is the nearest we have ever come to a fascist prime minister - based on her own words and actions - did you ever see the photographs of crossed British and Chilean flags at her 'free Pinochet and stop Britain being turned into a police state' rally?
She had the support of big business and the 'great and good' politicians than, just as her counterparts have now.
Way back when I was working for bosses, rather than being self employed, I would have dismissed out-of-hand the idea that we would return to zero-contracts, where I could be laid off without notice - common practice now.
We fought for a living wage - we got a minimum wage - less than is required to keep a family on - and that's constantly under threat.
According to your lot, we're not trusted to have a say in our working life - our Trades Unions have either been bought off or have been neutralised - centuries of struggle to get a voice down the pan.
Community housing privatised = growing homelessness, and not jut among the less well off.   
Divide between rich and poor (I think you described this as "envy "Britain's divided decade: the rich are 64% richer than before the recession, while the poor are 57% poorer" (From the Independent, the resulkt of this on the general well being of Britain is "Growing gap between rich and poor in Britain over two decades means the economy is 9% smaller that it could be" (that from the 'Leftie' Daily Mail).
Your lot are not to be trusted with our identity cards, your police aren't to be trusted not to misuse them, your politicians aren'tt to be trusted with guarding our rights, your banks are not to be trusted with minding our money, hospitals are failing the lesser well off.... a fine mess you've got us all in Stanley.
Stick your armbands, your identity cards and your politicians - and as for your fascist prime ministers.....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:15 AM

Very unwise not to, tho. A police officer can ask to see your driver's licence at any time, & does not need to state a reason; I have even had a bored one at 4 in the morning pull me up to do so, "Just as a routine check, sir," as the poor young man was obviously lonely and wanted someone to talk to. And if you should need assistance for any reason -- I once had the misfortune to pass out at a bus-stop for no cause that has ever been explained, and it has never happened again in the 40+ years since -- it helps if you can be identified for hospital admission, looking up in phone book & calling your wife, &c.

Still if you are so secretive you think your precious incognito must be preserved at all times, then I hope it keeps fine 4U!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:25 AM

Don't know quite what you mean by my 'lot', Jim. I haven't got a 'lot'; haven't been a member of a political party since I ceased to be on the committee of the Cambridge City Labour Party in about 1969. Our house was a local Labour Committee Rooms at the 64 election which brought dear old Harold to power! When my acquaintance thru his wife's theatre company that I used to review regularly, Clement Freud, was MP for where I live now in what used to be called the Isle of Ely, I obviously would vote Lib to keep him on as an excellent constituency man. &c &c.

So less from you about any putative 'lot' that you appear to imagine I belong to, if you wouldn't too much mind. I regard is as rude. Even lefties can mind their manners, I should hope!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:06 AM

Mike - you are the one who has expressed support for Thatcher, described a desire for equal opportunity for all as "envy", has defended what is happening as the best on offer and has dismissed argument as 'leftie' without bothering to respond to it.
You even ounted a mini-campaign to find out my politics.
Entitles you to life membership of 'your lot' as far as I'm concerned.
I too have not voted for decades and am hardly likely to now and hold no brief for any particular political philosophy.
I think I recognise what's right and wrong in society today, but that's more to do with my humanist upbringing (with a small "H"), than it has with my politics.
Doesn't stop you from referring to ma as a "leftie" - though I don't condider it "rude"
Drivving licences as far removed from electronic strips containing detailed information from political leanings to which hand you use to wipe your bum - if you don't know this, perhaps it's time you did - Brave New World, and all that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:21 AM

Michael, I am not so secretive, etc. etc. fer chrissake, I'm one of the most identifiable and trackable people here for a start. Whenever I'm out and about, like most people I have items about my person that would identify me within seconds. That is not the same thing as being forced to carry a card that not only identifies you but which also contains comprehensive information about you, and it's not the same as being forced to wear a non-removable wristband. Why, if I wanted to, I could stroll around Bude all day on a summer's day with nothing but a pair of swimming trunks and no personal possessions on me whatsoever (down, girls). That is exactly how it should be in a free country. The state does not own me and no-one has the right to control me as long as I operate within the law. Whether it's wise is completely beside the point. I have the choice, that's the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:56 AM

"forced to carry a card that not only identifies you but which also contains comprehensive information about you"

.,,.

Who has suggested any such thing? Why assume that if such a document were required to be carried it would be bound to give such information? Its content, once the wisdom of some form of identification being a useful thing for any citizen to carry had been agreed, would be a matter of debate. Why for crying out loud are you all so paranoid as to what dire secrets of your existence it would inevitably reveal?   But it would make sense if it just showed your name, address, next of kin, blood group...

Jim would, I daresay, claim to be an advocate of freedom of speech -- in his dreams. Why, just have the nerve to suggest that one of his ogres might have had something to be said for them; then wind him up and set him down & listen to him go! I didn't have to 'mount any campaigns' to find out your politics, Jim. I simply pointed out that your statements made them appear to tend more leftwards than otherwise. It was your own incurable paranoia that made you think that meant that I cared a flying piggiturd which stinking bloody party you might belong to. I couldn't give a flying one if you are a member of the Martian Independence From Jupiter Party...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 09:04 AM

What has all this to do with Jim's theory that they whole shemozzle is being engineered by the govt and the housing services to make it easier for thugs to harass the asylum seekers.
Wristbands v cards is arguable. Door paint on public property is almost always uniform. Number plates on houses are all usually one colour.    Conspiracy theories are not worth discussing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 09:51 AM

Like when you keep burbling on about "team Musket" for example? You're a laugh a minute, aren't you?

Michael. I am the last person to worry about whatever dire secrets about me might be revealed. If I have any at all, they've been kept secret from me! My point is simply one of principle. I live in this state but I am not beholden to it. As long as I keep the laws that are there to protect my freedoms and the freedoms of everyone else and pay my taxes, I should be free to be as public or as secretive as I please. That excludes random people "in authority" from demanding my ID without good reason, and it excludes obliging me to carry ID.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 10:46 AM

Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence? Do you think it unnecessary that we should all have our births registered, and have birth certificates issued? Which of the various documents which over the years have become regarded as necessary, so that they are taken for granted [but why should we all have birth certificates?, just ask yourself, if you are to be consistent] would you abolish? And, following on from that, why is it so unthinkable to you that any new ones might ever be added to their number? I frankly do not think you are being right bright about this. To hear you tell it, all the extant ones are OK, but any additions would be a tyrannical assault on the very basis of your civil liberties! And surely you can see that your "without good reason" in your final sentence is an unconscionable begging of the question -- in the true petitio principii sense.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 11:18 AM

"What has all this to do with Jim's theory that they whole shemozzle is being engineered by the govt and the housing services to make it easier for thugs to harass the asylum seekers."
Pleawse4 stop misrepresenting what I said - my offer to your favourite charity still stands if you can show I ever said such a thing.
I said it was possibly a part of a pilot scheme to test identity cards for immigrants - no more.
The thuggery that you are defending (by ignoring, if nothing else) was a natural outcome - not an intention.
Keith's already tried rewriting what I actually said and failed miserably - why not try a little honest debate for a change - your dishonesty only serves to underline the weakness of your argument.
I don't claim to be an advocate for anything Mike - I put a list of rights I once had that have disappeared, you, in your wisdom and attitude to fair play, choose to ignore them.
Your desire to learn my politics became reminiscent of nagging.
"Who has suggested any such thing? "
Well - Michael Howard did actually:
These were his proposals for identity cards
"The introduction of the scheme was much debated, and various degrees of concern about the scheme were expressed by human rights lawyers, activists, security professionals and IT experts, as well as politicians. Many of the concerns focused on the databases underlying the identity cards rather than the cards themselves. The Act specified fifty categories of information that the National Identity Register could hold on each citizen,[1] including up to 10 fingerprints, digitised facial scan and iris scan, current and past UK and overseas places of residence of all residents of the UK throughout their lives and indexes to other Government databases (including National Insurance Number[2]) – which would allow them to be connected. The legislation on this resident register also said that any further information could be added.[3]
The legislation further said that those renewing or applying for passports must be entered on to the NIR. It was expected that this would happen soon after the Identity and Passport Service (IPS), which was formerly the UK Passport Service, started interviewing passport applicants to verify their identity.[4]"
Your rather unpleasant summing up of my character is rather difficult to deal with - it's somewhat like the rest of your gang, who don't actually involve themselves in debate, but make general snideswipes - rather like wrestling fog.
Perhaps if we concentrated on what each other actually said instead of our assumption of each others politics, we might retain the somewhat tenuous respect we have for each other (speaking for myself of course)
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:03 PM

Do not accuse me of not being very bright, Michael, when you are deliberately trying to miss the point. I am talking about, in the spirit of the thread's topic, being obliged to carry documentation around with me. I have no objection to having to HAVE a bus pass, driving licence, railcard, passport, birth certificate, telly licence, Eden Project Locals' Pass, credit card, debit card, Nectar card, MyWaitrose card, or any other card or document. The address book on my iPhone instantly identifies me (my choice). If I want a particular service, such as to get into the Eden Project without having to pay extra, I expect to have to show my entitlement. But none of these items are permanently affixed to my person and I can't be arrested simply for not having them with me. That's how it should be. I may need my birth certificate to get a new passport but I don't have to carry it round with me. I don't have to show my telly licence to any old Tom, Dick, or Harry who knocks on the door asking for it. I want to see a warrant that states that I'm suspected of having an unlicensed telly first, and even then I can't be punished just because I can't find it. I don't even expect to be asked for my driving licence unless a policeman suspects me of committing a driving offence, and even then I have several days to produce it. That's what "with good reason" means, Michael, open to abuse of course, but that's the real world. I'm not going to a holiday venue that tries to force me to wear a wristband. Asylum seekers allowed into this country have a human right to receive food. We do not have the moral right to force them to wear non-removable, stigmatising, humiliating wristbands in order to receive it. They've been humiliated enough as it is. In all of this long, rambling, patient post, Michael, there are only two key words, obliged and non-removable. Try to hang on to them and act a little more bright.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:52 PM

Steve, "Team Musket" is not a conspiracy theory, unless you haven't been paying attention to what the people who post under that username have been saying.

I wonder how you would have dealt with their charges of having a criminal record, vicious personal stuff about your wife's medical treatment, and insults in nearly every post
I have remained cool and reasonable while they vent their hatred on all who dare to hold different views.
I don't believe in personal abuse, as a tactic it always fails in the face of reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 01:51 PM

Are you really going to walk away from you accusation Ake?
Suppose you are - why break the habit of a lifetime?
Confirmation enough for me though
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 03:34 PM

Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence? Do you think it unnecessary that we should all have our births registered, and have birth certificates issued? Which of the various documents which over the years have become regarded as necessary, so that they are taken for granted [but why should we all have birth certificates?, just ask yourself, if you are to be consistent] would you abolish? And, following on from that, why is it so unthinkable to you that any new ones might ever be added to their number? I frankly do not think you are being right bright about this. To hear you tell it, all the extant ones are OK, but any additions would be a tyrannical assault on the very basis of your civil liberties! And surely you can see that your "without good reason" in your final sentence is an unconscionable begging of the question -- in the true petitio principii sense.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:28 PM

Jim, The reason I am not responding to you, is that I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism.

As far as I am concerned there was nothing wrong with the colour of the doors, the house number plates, or the wristbands.....these people are seeking asylum, they will be receiving benefits, food, and a newly refurbished house, something our own young people can only dream about.   Try to get a grip on reality, the media sniffed a human rights story and dived in feet first....rather than take them on as they should have done, the housing agencies backed down.

Nothing to do with right and wrong....just the latest example of who controls this country.....the stinking media and the fools who follow them.    and politically motivated people on internet forums of course :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:02 PM

I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism.

.....these people are seeking asylum, they will be receiving benefits, food, and a newly refurbished house, something our own young people can only dream about.

There's clearly quite a lot that you don't understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM

What is wrong with "these people" in reference to asylum seekers or any other particular group of human beings?

Do you seriously think that is racial prejudice?
If so, you're as daft as Jim.
Why don't "you people" grow up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:55 PM

It would seem that there are some who are so desperate to flaunt their perceived moral superiority that they have to create victims in order to ride to their defense. They are well represented here on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:59 PM

"Jim, The reason I am not responding to you, is that I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism."
Youve had what you said put to you - you don't even res[pond to that.
You have not acknowledged the harm that these armbands, the plaques and the front doors have had on asylum seekers - your response is to appease the attacks made on them - now condemnation of the attacks - don't have to ask what side you are on.
You have deliberately misrepresented what I have said, that is simply lying - which makes you what you are.
How would it be if I asked you if you'd had a visit from the R.S.P.C.A. lately?
Wouldn't do that because that would be lowering myself to your level.
Are you still contemplating becoming a Christian - just wondered?
"Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence"
Still comparing apples with artichokes Mike - you know as well as we do that they don't bear comparison (you've had the identity card wish-list), yet you stay as silent as Ake.
Another dinner party where the spoon is too short.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:30 PM

Do you seriously think that is racial prejudice?

Yes I do think it is. And I am not daft, neither is Jim, I'm already an adult, and less than six hours ago you told us that you don't believe in personal abuse, as a tactic it always fails in the face of reason. You appear to have a short memory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Aggiornamento
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 11:29 PM

Yellow Stars (Jude) and arm-bands (Mussulmen) both indicate the individuals respect for what is sacred. They do compare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:33 AM

The mention of TV licences reminds me of an incident many years ago. There was a knock on my door, the chap said according to our records you don't have a TV licence. Your records are correct says I. Why don't you have one says he. I don't need one, I don't have a television. He asked if he could come in my house and have a look. He was told to bugger off. He said I think you have a television. Why says I, because you have an aerial. Hmmmmmm I whipped up my polo shirt and said I've got nipples but I don't bloody use them. The look on his face was well worth it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:46 AM

"If so, you're as daft as Jim."
If I'm "daft" it should be relatively easy to disprove what I say - instead you throw stones from afar.
You have the situation as it stands at present, you have the damage done to human beings who already have enough to cope with - instead of name-calling, why not just respond to that directly without telling lies - easy-peasy as that.
The same goes for our somewhat cowardly anonymous guest - why not creep out from under your bridge and give us the benefit of your opinion?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:29 AM

The same goes for our somewhat cowardly anonymous guest

Cuts too close to home, does it Carroll?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:35 AM

"Cuts too close to home, does it Carroll?"
Might do if you actually had something to say Troll (or should I say Brucie?) - your literary flair is somewhat distinctive.
Still happy to hear what you have to say - go on - force yourself - no? - didn't think so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:57 AM

Jim,
Keith's already tried rewriting what I actually said and failed miserably

No. I quoted you verbatim.
You did suggest, as Ake also mentioned, that this was a conspiracy by a racist government to persecute migrants, and Steve likewise.

In fact it was a short lived story that was of no import and soon dealt with.
The Chicken Littles both wildly over-reacted and the sky is still in place.

Here are the quotes again,

"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."

"explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy - Britain has a shameful record of racism - Moseley, N.F., BNP, and now Ukip - all major players in British politics
Now they are targeting asylum seekers and you are supporting them."

"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe)
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?

(Steve)
"I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government..... The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:18 AM

"No. I quoted you verbatim."
You did not Keith - this was your claim
"There is certainly nothing to judtify Jim's claim that this local arrangement represents a government policy to persecute asylum seekers!
- where have I ever suggested that it was Government policy to PERSECUTE ASYLUM SEEKERS
I neither said that, notr do I believe it, as my reply pointed out.
I believe that it was "possibly" a trying out of tagging asylum seekers with a possible view to expanding it to all immigrants, or at least those who have arrived recently.
If you can find one hint of persecution - put it up - don't expect for a minute you are prepared to withdraw it.
You and Ake have made a fine art of rewriting what people say to suit yourselves.
"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."
As I said before - not a word of "persecution"
Cameron did describe them as a swarm - are you suggesting he did not?
Again - not a word of "persecution" - you appear to be linking Cameron's words with persecution - not me.
What the **** are you putting something written by Steve up for - I didn't say it - you've already been told about this.
Wriggling - malicious or just plain stupid - or what?
I certainly believe the Government are prepared to use immigrants to will elections - so are many other politicians - that is cynicism, not racism, in my opinion.
Now put up or shut up Keith and stop exposing yourself to more ridicule
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:41 AM

Yes, yes, Carroll you are morally superior to Keith et al and you have, once again saved the persecuted from the scourge of government racism. You are a true hero and your name, like that of Don Quixote, will be legend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:43 AM

Another aspect of this squalid affair; from yesterday's Times
Jim Carroll

Asylum Wristband Row Company Pays Chief £1m
Dominic Kennedy

A company that forced asylum seekers to wear red wristbands is to be summoned before parliament after it was disclosed that one of its directors is being paid nearly £1 million.
Clearsprings, which is contracted by the Home Office to look after immigrants, was criticised for requiring the bands to be worn in exchange for meals.
Company records show that its highest paid director is receiving £960,000 a year. Clearsprings is owned by the brothers Graham and Jeff King, of south Essex. Several years ago it was at the centre of complaints over its plans to set up bail hostels.
The company dropped a policy of forcing asylum seekers in Cardiff to wear the wristbands. Now MPs are furious that the company is making big profits and paying fat-cat boardroom salaries.
Clearsprings Ready Homes made £3million on a turnover of £29million, according to company filings.
Its parent company Clearsprings (Management) nearly trebled pay for its three-man board from £494, 000 to £1. 3 million. The company also disclosed that HMRC was conducting an
inquiry into its tax affairs.
The Mail on Sunday reported that Clearsprings was housing asylum seekers at a hotel near Gatwick where they had to eat away from other guests.
Keith Vaz, chairman of the home affairs committee, said of the company:
"We will be calling them in." MPs had warned the home secretary, Theresa May, about the agreements, he said.
"The situation regarding Clearsprings is most concerning. There have been numerous complaints which ought to have alerted the Home Office.
The taxpayer needs value for money, not to be ripped off by providers providing an inadequate service, " he added He said the committee would question James Brokenshire, the immigration minister, when he appears before MPs tomorrow. Stephen Doughty, the
Labour MP, has secured a debate on asylum contracts this week.
Clearsprings did not respond.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:05 AM

- where have I ever suggested that it was Government policy to PERSECUTE ASYLUM SEEKERS


In all these quotes Jim,

"These doors were equivalent to hanging signs up and saying "To any right wing thus who happens to be in the vicinity - I am an asylum seeker - please feel free to vandalise my home". "

"the continuing singling out of asylum seekers for racist persecution and attacks."

"Personally, I believe that the red front doors are not unconnected to the now abandoned 'yellow-star type' armbands and goes higher up than landlord's policy, but that's me."

"The armbands have nothing to do with benefits - they are to identify the wearers as asylum seekers whenever they appear in public"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:13 AM

So where is a reference to government policy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:29 AM

Rag, he says he believes that the policy comes from "higher up" than the agents who paint the doors and provide the bands for welfare.

He refers to "government policy."

He says, "these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, "
Local agents would hardly be piloting such a scheme for all asylum seekers in the country. Who would order such a scheme but government?

He says, "The armbands have nothing to do with benefits - they are to identify the wearers as asylum seekers whenever they appear in public"
which would have to be a national policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:41 AM

Again, where has Jim used the term, government policy. As far as I can make out he hasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:45 AM

It is encouraging that Jim now does not accuse the government of deliberately persecuting, or encouraging the persecution, of migrants, distancing himself from Steve who has let stand his view that "we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government."


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:46 AM

"In all these quotes Jim,"
Now you are a stupidly lying unless you believe that being tagged is persecution - in which case both the government and the firm are guilty of persecution - is that what you are saying?
You have defended the use of armbands and the plaques - in which case, you are defending persecution - is that what you are saying?
The Government has actually forced the removal of the tags and the plaques.
If either is the case - you are supporting persecution - plain and simple
You are deliberately twisting my words to make them something I have never suggested and do not believe - the stupid this is you are doing so obviously.
Leave it Keith - this is just another of your justifications for your dishonesty
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:48 AM

Rag, he did use the term in one of the quotes, and he clearly refers to it as government policy in the others without needing to use the phrase.
His meaning is quite clear however much you pretend that you can not see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:19 PM

"and he clearly refers to it as government policy in the others without needing to use the phrase.
Where have I ever accused the Government of persecution - on the contrary
07 Feb 16 - 08:00 PM
"Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm."
"I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
You and your friend have been caught lying - lay down - you're dead
Now will you piss off


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:22 PM

Repeat
""I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:22 PM

In the quotes you highlighted Jim made no mention of government policy can I presume we can now add clairvoyance to your list of talents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM

"can I presume we can now add clairvoyance to your list of talents."
Nope - just a confirmation of dishonesty - this bit compounds the dishonesty
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 12:56 PM

Have you noticed that Guesticle's new policy is to call people he falls out with by their surname only. Let's hope he doesn't fall out with Keith, who will become A. Michael will become Lion, Greg would be F, pete would be Link and we'd have a woodsman and a tash. Any more offers for this joker?

"Thought I'd heard it all from Carroll, Shaw, Gnomo and F, but now even Lion and A, who you'd have thought would be on my side, are having a go. And bugger me sideways with a bent banana if woodsman and tash aren't stalking me as well. If he'll talk to me again, think I'll head off for a prayer meeting with Link..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 01:02 PM

Jim, you claimed that the government was deliberately identifying migrants to those who would harm them, as the yellow stars once identified Jews.
That is persecution Jim.

The post you just quoted has this,
"what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"

May is Home Secretary!

Never mind.
You say you no longer believe that the government is doing this to persecute the migrants.
I think that you are right about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 01:03 PM

Just looking in the "Mother" thread he could double some up to get either Hawk-Chimp or Chimp-Hawk and River with Banks


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 02:47 PM

"Jim, you claimed that the government was deliberately identifying migrants to those who would harm them,"
Where?
The only time of have accused anybody of deliberation is in claiming you aqre deliberately lying - which you now are.
I said that attacks on asylum seekers were the consequence of their policies - at no time have I ever said (or believed) that the Government set out to persecute anybody - in fact I said the opposite
"Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm."
"what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
Up to your old - 'out of context'stunts;
In context
""I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?"
If you are going to do this, please make an effort - this is ****** ludicrous.
"You say you no longer believe that the government is doing this to persecute the migrants."
Piss off Keith - I said no such thing - I have never claimed the Government disd anything other than to clear the ground for some sort of identification
You really are a pathetic little man
Mor from what I* have said - and what I believe.
27 Jan 16 - 11:19 AM
But surely the reason why it was done is beside the point - the practice has led to vandalising attacks on the property and it is putting the safety and possibly the lives of tenants at risk (only takes a braindead, a can of petrol and a match and whoosh- there you go)

29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?

30 Jan 16 - 05:45 AM
It is a way of tagging people and it has been proven to have put people at risk yet our star super-rights continue to defend the use of compulsory markers to identify foreigners
IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE

07 Feb 16 - 11:56 AM
This is an exercise in tagging asylum seekers - the way it was done was found to be degrading and dangerous so it was abandoned (after nationwide protests).

You really should not be allowed to post until you clean up your act
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 03:12 PM

Jim, the title of the thread and your early posts are about government being behind this local arrangement, for the purpose of persecuting migrants just as Jews were persecuted by the yellow stars.

Clearly you no longer believe that and distance yourself from Steve who has not changed his position.

That is good.
We no longer disagree.

Denying your original position now just makes you look silly, but at least we now agree that this is not really an issue at all, and not worthy of all the hype and hyssteria here and elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 03:13 PM

hysteria


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 04:56 PM

Please God, make this madness stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 05:55 PM

I agree BWM, it's getting extremely boring, but these crazy ideas need to be opposed, or they become the norm. Soon we will be unable to speak or think for ourselves the madia will control every waking moment.

Keith is correct to point out the fallacies in their views, the "plaques" are a typical example ....house numbers, what colour should they be? Rainbow colours to baffle the racist thugs?

It is absolutely laughable. Wristbands, if you are allowed to remove them, I suppose you could lend them or rent them to people who don't qualify for the benefits?    Door colour is beyond discussion, why on earth would any letting company deliberately encourage thugs to attack their property?

I repeat, these people are here because we allow them to be here, every taxpayer provides the benefits that our own young jobless or low paid people do not qualify for.....our own sons and daughters.
The asylum seekers should be a little more grateful for the kindness of the UK population in providing such a standard of living for nothing.

Jim the RSPCA remark is unlike you, but I don't think you are a bad person, I made the comment "daft" after considerable thought, it was meant more as "comically confused" than "mentally ill".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 06:04 PM

"I repeat, these people are here because we allow them to be here, every taxpayer provides the benefits that our own young jobless or low paid people do not qualify for.....our own sons and daughters.
The asylum seekers should be a little more grateful for the kindness of the UK population in providing such a standard of living for nothing."

Disgusting. Inhuman, racist, xenophobic and Incredibly Ill-informed. Actually, I think I'm being kind to you. One of the most hateful posts I've ever read here. Your presence shames this place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, Jim, the tit suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:04 PM

"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:34 PM

"Jim, the title of the thread and your early posts are about government being behind this local arrangement"
Nothing about Government persecuting anybody yet - ah well!!
The title of the thread was based on newspaper comparisons of the identification bands - maybe they suspected Government persecution - nuffin' to do with me.
"Clearly you no longer believe that and distance yourself from Steve "
No I don't - I think he is oversimplifying things, I have no idea whether he believes in a government plot to persecute asylum seekers - if he does - disagree with him - as I have made quite clear - you have yet to come up with one single thing I have said at any time which contradicts this - just the opposite - though I have no doubt you have fine-combed everything - you are now lying desperately and, as I have said many times before - you have not a shred of self-respect in your desperation to prove something I have neither said, nor do I believe.
"We no longer disagree."
Are you really that short of friends? Utterly pathetic.
Ake - you started this with your lying - have you any evidence of what Keith is claiming - c'mon - he's blowing for tugs here - help him out
You refuse to respond to the damage that these bands and the front doors have caused, even though you have been shown the evidence over and over again - that is beneath contempt.
"Jim the RSPCA remark is unlike you, "
Your lying, your support for a practice that has been discredited, your contemptuous regard for the well-being and safety of men women and children who have been driven out of their homes and countries by genocidal war and persecution is, unfortunately, very much like you.
I notice you are totally avoiding all this - which means, having started all this, you are now leaving your friend to wallow in your shit-storm - very noble of you.
So - wadd've we got?
A Islamophobic racist Antisemite who claims to be a Christian - an Islamophobic, Antisemite Troll who is to ashamed to admit to the identity he once posted under and only peeps from under his bridge occasionally to throw a few stones, and a homophobic, right wing extremist who thinks he is a socialist - such opposition - won't sleep a wink tonight worrying about it - shesh - what a gang of tossers!
"Please God, make this madness stop."
Then how about helping to put a stop to it Woodie - can you show anything to back up Keith's claims, or would you rather keep your distance too?
Were's me 'orlicks
Night all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:52 PM

Which bloody Steve are we talking about here? Can we clear this up, please? I don't feel that I'm distanced from anyone I wasn't distanced from before, and, if I over-simplify things, I should like to told how.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 08:36 PM

Keith is trying to break off our engagement Steve - take no notice; we're still buddies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 08:55 PM

Sorry Steve (Shaw)- should elucidate.
It's an old trick of Keith's that, when he finds himself really in the klarts (as now) - first he lumps those opposing him as "you lot" and tries to attribute what one of us has said to the other(s) - hence his lumping yours and my statements together - then he he tries to split "us lot" up, by claiming one or other of us is now agreeing with him, as he has with me "We no longer disagree.".
We've never met (I don't think), but basically, you and I seem to be coming from the same direction, while we may not entirely agree on the detail - Keith his using his worn-out tactic of "divide and rule".
He has two idiot friends here, neither of which have balls or staying power and leave him to take the flack, sniping from the sidelines occasionally when he really starts to gibber.
None of them are the brightest starfishes in the sandbucket - they toss a coin to decide whose turn it is to use the single brain at the beginning of each session (sort of, like the 3 Cyclops with one eye between them.
As far as I'm concerned, the engagement's still on - see you at the church!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:22 PM

Pick me up on detail any time, Jim. My brain can be slow at times!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:13 PM

Jim,
Nothing about Government persecuting anybody yet

Me,
"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."
You,
"Yeah - sure it is."

That is you disagreeing that it is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this, and so do all your other quotes.

I acknowledge and accept that you have now changed your mind.
Your embarrassment over your previous position does you credit.
We are now in agreement.
I think that a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:17 PM

Steve,
"I'll tell you what I think. I think we are being softened up to hate immigrants by a nasty, racist Tory government which never criticises Israeli atrocities, which cosies up to the despicable Saudi regime and which allows fat cats to get away without paying tax. We are told that there are bunches of migrants threatening to swarm into the country. The fact that we can even be having a discussion about marking out asylum seekers as separate by painting their doors a certain colour or making them wear wristbands is testament to the fact that the cynical softening up is working on the more bigoted and feeble-minded among us. These things are not debatable in my opinion."

Is that still your view Steve?
Do you agree with it Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 10:38 PM

which never criticises Israeli atrocities

Because Israel does not commit atrocities, unless you are implying that defending your country from attack is an atrocity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:06 PM

Because Israel does not commit atrocities

Plenty of Israelis think otherwise, Bearded Fred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!
From: GUEST,Tin Eye
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 11:58 PM

Raggytash, aren't Telescreens required in the UK? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:57 AM

"Then how about helping to put a stop to it Woodie - can you show anything to back up Keith's claims, or would you rather keep your distance too?"

I left school and started work in 1963. Unlike The Usual Suspects on this forum, I left childishness and bike-shed behaviour behind at that point. Stupid, childish, "Yah-Boo you" bickering may give you lot a huge boner, but it does nothing for me. I tried, earlier, to inject some sense and realism, and hopefully bring the squabbling to a close, but to no avail. I know better than to try to breathe life into a dead horse.

I've got a lovely wife, a nice house, two nice cars, a grand little dog, a good pension, half-a-dozen guitars and a mandolin most players would sell their first-born in order to own, two nice holidays a year, and decent health. I'm having a good life. Why in the name of God would I want to waste it pointlessly arguing with two factions of OCD idiots whose aim isn't to reach consensus, but simply to "win", and who are prepared to lie, distort and misinterpret in their vain attempts to achieve their goal?

Get a life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:24 AM

This finishes here as far as I'm concerned
Apart from the possibility of a Government feeling out a tagging system for Asylum Seekers the only 'conspiracy theory' I will give my support to is that Keith's campaign is aimed at deliberately closing down a thread on what has happened in Middlesborough and Cardiff.
He has not come up with one shred of backing for his claims and nobody is supporting him here - it is a one-man-band again,
Even Ake, who started this "persecution of asylum seekers" accusation, has fallen silent and has left him to stew in his own juice - like the hero we know him to be.
The point has been made over and over again of what effect this tagging and identification of asylum seekers has had on those wretched refugees - the old usual handful have rolled out to support them, the red doors and the identification bands have been abandoned for the abominably inhuman idea that they were - an experiment failed, one of the companies is being examined for possibly defrauding the taxpayer and the world has moved on.
Now, what we are left with is desperate attempt by Keith to save face - for his naff campaign to compare 4* hotels to asylum seekers seeking assistance, and more than that, to his blatant dishonesty in rewriting other people's opinions - it ain't going to happen - face well lost Keith, as deep as the Titanic in the Grand Banks.
I really have no more to say to him, and I truely hope the rest of you has taken the lesson.
"Get a life."
I'll take that as "I don't want to be involved" then Woodie - can't say I blame you - neither do I.
Happy to continue the discussion on the topic - but not with this pair of saddoes.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 04:57 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM

"It is extreme paranoia to imagine a government conspiracy in any of this."

Yeah - sure it is


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:26 AM

You clearly don't understand the point I was making, Keith. If you don't agree with it, or any of it, bring it on. It seems rather pointless to ask me if I agree with something I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:27 AM

Tin Eye, I don't think Televisions have been made compulsory ....yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:44 AM

Steve, what is to misunderstand? You stated your case very clearly.
I asked if you still think that and you do.
Fine.
I asked Jim if he agreed, but he declined to answer.
I think he would have supported you if he felt he could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:03 AM

So?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:19 AM

Tin Eye may have been referring to 1984. I'm a bit slow this morning after too many pancakes so I don't get the significance.

Keith, I'll give you a minute, though I don't know why I bother. When I say that these things are not debatable IN MY OPINION (nota bene), I mean that all decent people should condemn, unanimously, nem con, the painting of the doors and the enforced wearing of the wristbands. Anyone who defends these ugly practices, or says that they are trivial or that they don't matter and what's all the fuss about, is, IN MY OPINION, out of order and is very likely uninformed at best, or uncaring, or bigoted at worst. That's what I meant. As I am actually debating it, that should tell you clearly what I think of you and your allies. And, as a footnote, Jim and I are not and never have been in cahoots with each other. Your childish attempts to drive a wedge are simply laughable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 08:20 AM

"Pick me up on detail any time, Jim. My brain can be slow at times!"
Don't think it is really Steve – but it's a mistake we've all made to write of the present Government as simply "racist" - in my opinion, it's a bit more complicated than that.
For me, the present refugee crisis and the tags and front doors have been an eye opener.
The British political system has long abandoned any pretence of representing the people of these islands - it has become a political scrabble to hold office - a career move and a way to make sure the wealthy stay wealthy, nothing more.
Labour - Conservative and (so called) Liberal parties have become indistinguishable and interchangeable, swinging one way or the other in coalitions in order to retain power.
More and more, 'the strangers among us' have become an issue at election time, pawns used by politicians playing on a xenophobia which has been part of our lives for the length of my lifetime at least
This cynicism goes back at least as far as the mid 19th century when the British newspapers were peddling a racist image of the simian Irish, and our hotels and boarding houses were putting up signs like "No Irish – no dogs, while at the same time, our politicians and industrialists, particularly mill and mine-owners, were welcoming the starving Famine refugees with open arms as a method of driving down the wages of the indigenous working people.   
In the nineteen - thirties, we had political racism and cultural hatred in the form of the Antisemitism of Mosley, Ramsey, Arthur Wellesley the 5th Duke of Wellington, Lord Rothermere of The Daily Mail, set alongside a moral obligation of accepting refugees from Nazi Germany and an influx of impoverished workers who would work for what they could get.
In the latter half of the 20th century, we had the rabble-rousing racism of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood, against all immigrants, alongside a political acceptance that we "couldn't send them all back to where they came from, coupled with a pragmatic recognition that immigration was beneficial to the economy and the community.
Nowadays, apart from Ukip (maybe), the unlamentedly late National Front and the BNP, I don't believe genuine racism to be a passionately-felt part of British politics - not really – Ukip is an oddity in the sense that it attracts racist nutters, but this is set beside a talentless leadership of wannabe-parliamentarians who are happy to use racism, immigration and anti-Europeanism as their stairway to the stars - pragmatic racism.
Our politics today consists of a bunch of cynics from all the major parties who will use every dirty trick in the book to hold office, and sadly, immigration has become a trump card at election time.
The present appalling situation in the world today, much exacerbated by our own policy of arms sales and general trade to and friendship with despots, the past destruction of our home manufacturing industries, which has flooded our shops with slave-condition-produced goods from abroad, not forgetting our reliance on oil, has led directly to a massive refugee crisis - producing a winning trump card at election time.
Want to win an election - simple - promise to stop immigration - nothing to do with racism, just simple parliamentary tactics (Britain isn't alone in this, of course.
Similar things are happening in Europe with the Le Pen dynasty in France, or in Turkey, or in Hungary.... or all those countries slamming the doors on desperate people to appease national Xenophobias – a terrifying re-emergence of extreme rightism.
I think it would be wrong to put what is happening today to political racism – parliamentary politics are guided by widening the wealth gap and staying in office.
Sure – there are racists in every section of society, politics included, sadly among working people too, but as far as politicians are concerned, pragmatism rules O.K. and it always did.   
If you believe that this lot are driven by racism – I disagree with you - you are assuming they have a guiding philosophy, which I don't believe they have
If you are saying that they are happy to use our inherent Xenophobia as a nation to stay in office and protect their privileges – I'm with you all the way.
Both are racist in effect, but not every racist is a RACIST, if you know what I mean.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 08:52 AM

Well if you're a pragmatic racist, as you put it, in other words letting your policies of trying to keep immigrants out and treating those who are here differently to everyone else do the talking for you, very likely because you feel the need to trump UKIP, you might as well be a real racist for all the difference it makes. In fact, demonisation is more efficient when it's done more subtly, as opposed to doing it the BNP way. Read akenaton's 09 Feb. 5.55pm post again. That's the effect that politicians' rhetoric has on feeble-minded people. That's what I meant by softening people up in order to get them to take illiberal immigration policies onboard. I should thank him for providing me with the example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 09:23 AM

I say again that it is a great error to equate UKIP with the explicitly racist parties. I just do not believe that to be its motivation, either implicit or explicit. IMO the 1974 Europe con was a disgrace, in the toils of whose iniquitous outcomes we are still enmeshed with no hope of escape but for some sort of policies equating to those of UKIP. At 84 it is not likely to affect me for much longer, and I have no children -- tho now I have step-children thru my second marriage, I feel a bit more personally concerned than I did a few years ago.

I agree, Jim, with your postulation that "The British political system has long abandoned any pretence of representing the people of these islands - it has become a political scrabble to hold office - a career move...". And not only the British, but all. I have always said [& have probably posted here before] that the existential paradox is that anyone who wishes to make his livelihood and career in politics is the last person on whom the responsibility for governing others should ever devolve. But the problem is, what to do about it. Anarchy was probably one putative attempt at an answer -- but the built-in absurdity of anyone's seeking office on an 'Anarchist' ticket is only too explicit & obvious. My grandfather BTW, a Yiddish journalist and Jewish political activist, knew Kropotkin; my father remembered his visiting their home during his adolescence.

This is not meant to be a constructive post; rather one of despair... Anyone see any way out of the impasse I postulate?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 09:49 AM

You can't deny that much of the Tory "strong on immigration" rhetoric before the election was made in fear of Ukip's burgeoning popularity. They were running scared. As for Ukip, OK so they wrong-headedly want us out of Europe, which they demonise, xenophobic but not in itself racist, but they also also demonise immigrants by suggesting that they may have terrorists embedded, etc., and they talk up, inaccurately, the supposed burden on our benefits system, our jobs market and infrastructure. All on the record and all very close to what many would see as full of the usual, dismal racist undertones that we'd condemn if it were about black people. Ukip signally fails to draw a line in the sand in order to separate what's acceptable in their own ranks and what isn't. The Tories at the very least had to go along with all this and try to look even stronger than UKIP. It was an unedifying spectacle. Principles and fair play could go hang. The effect on the people's perception of immigrants was far less important to the Tories than watching their arses. Pragmatic racism? You say tomayto, I say tomato...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:00 AM

"you might as well be a real racist for all the difference it makes"
Quite agree Steve - the effect to the recipient is the same either way, but in terms of what we are discussing, the driving force behind that racism is not Xenophobia or hatred of other races, as I perceive 'racism' proper to be, but a cynicism to use other people racism.
The doors and bands, I suspect, were not to actually persecute the wearers or the tenants, that would be counter-productive, but to be able to find them in a hurry if the need arose, ie. to fulfill election promises and to keep an eye on us.
This doesn't just apply to Asylum Seekers or even immigrants, but to all of us - hence Michael Howard's efforts to store as much information about us on identity cards.
None of this is beyond the realms of possibility - it's the desire of all Governments - democratic or otherwise - modern technology has put this within their grasp.
Over the last few months I've used the net extensively - to buy books or computer software or to find hotels.
THe minute you log off you're inundated with ads for similar products - recently been getting a load of ads for Dublin hotels appearing as pop-ups on my screen - from a dozen different companies - sorry, but I find that disturbing.
Of course, there is no evidence that this was a deliberate ploy by the Government to tag asylum seekers - I described it as only a possibility from the beginning, but it's what's happening more and more in the world today - particularly in the U.S., and where they go, we invariably follow.
None of this has anything to do with "persecution asylum seekers, as these two dickbrains lyingly claim, but simply a method of keeping tabs on them.
Some people don't mind what's happening - I do - I don't trust a society that can elect a fascist who uses our police force as a private army and describes a South American mass murderer as 'her kind of democrat' as a Prime Minister, or has a police force that even finds itself "institutionally racist".
If anybody wants a peep at how safe a pair of hands our economy is in at present - I suggest they seek out the somewhat difficult film, 'The Big Short', about the 2008 economic crash - anger-making and frightening at the same time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:07 AM

If you are happy in Europe, Steve -- your privilege. And I hope it keeps fine for you & doesn't all end in tears. As I say, not going to affect me for that much longer, any way you slice it.

But I find an odd sort of paradox in someone who would, I am sure, regard himself as an enlightened believer in the democratic process using a term like "Ukip's burgeoning popularity" in tones of pejorative putdown! Democracy fine, so long as the unenlightened proles all vote the way you think they should, hey? Have you even thought of asking yourself why their popularity was 'burgeoning'?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:12 AM

"My grandfather BTW, a Yiddish journalist and Jewish political activist, knew Kropotkin; my father remembered his visiting their home during his adolescence. "
'Peter the Great' - would loved to be a fly on that wall Mike - hope you wrote down some of those memories!
Don't agree with your points about Ukip - its leadership is hardly inspiring, it can't even manage the extremist nutters it attracts and it has a one-theme policy.
But there you go - we're not going to see eye-to-eye about everything
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:20 AM

Unhappily, Jim, I have no memories. They were my father's memories of about 1912 or so -- he was born in 1901. I have written all I know of them 4 or 5 posts back.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:36 AM

I agree that these ad hoc single-issue fly-by-night parties are unsatisfactory phenomena sub speciæ æternitatis. I still keep on my lavatory wall as a sort of souvenir a "Referendum Party -let the people decide" badge; and had to re3sort to wikipedia even to remember what election it was [1994] and what the guy's name was [Sir James Goldsmith], both of which bits of info had faded entirely from my memory. And Farage & UKIP will doubtless go the same way. But from my

'out at all costs before the French & Germans who unite in hatred of us if in nothing else whatever succeed in ruining us beyond repair'*

pov, they're all we've got.

≈M≈

*Only a day or two since I quoted on some other thread that indispensable principle which I now have cause to iterate yet again, that "just becoz I'm paranoid doesn't mean that the buggers ain't out to get me!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:38 AM

Ukip's doorstep popularity was all about its stance on immigrants and very little else. Europe on its own has never really fired up the electorate that much. Ask William Hague. They were able to cash in gleefully on the fact that the Tories had dismally failed to keep a promise on immigration numbers that they should never have made (ask yourself why they did make it). One of the penalties of democracy is that we have to permit unscrupulous politicians to appeal to people's prejudices and baser instincts, as well as allowing right-wing mass media to side with them. Couple that with a semi-literate population, politically-speaking, and fighting it can be bloody hard. Ask Jeremy Corbyn. I'm amazed that anyone posting here with pretensions to intelligence can't see right through Ukip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 10:49 AM

jim,
The doors and bands, I suspect, were not to actually persecute the wearers or the tenants, that would be counter-productive, but to be able to find them in a hurry if the need arose, ie. to fulfill election promises and to keep an eye on us.

So you are back to claiming it was all a government plot!
Crackers Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:13 AM

Steve,
That's what I meant by softening people up in order to get them to take illiberal immigration policies onboard.

You have it the wrong way around.
Government loves immigration. It keeps big business happy by supplying lots of supine workers ready and willing to work for less and who have been trained at someone else's expence.
It also provides rich folks like us with plenty of gardeners, plumbers, child minders, nannies and care workers for rock bottom money.

It is the poor who suffer the hardship of reduced wages, opportunities, housing, school places, overcrowded hospitals and services.
It is the ordinary people who are desperately begging government to introduce "illiberal immigration policies," not the other way round.

Cameron made no promises on immigration last election because he was shown to be incapable or unwilling to keep the immigration promises he made the previous time!

Why are you and the Left so in favour of even more liberal immigration policies?
Who benefits?
Working people see it as a betrayal by those who are supposed to speak for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:38 AM

"So you are back to claiming it was all a government plot!"
Sigh..... no Keith - I know it was the idea of two companies, the doors known about by the government for at least four years before they did anything about it.
I'm saying it was a possibility that the Govenment was happy to let it go ahead and take advantage of it - stranger things have happened at sea
Are you still claiming I suggested that the government wanted to "persecute" asylum seekers - not there's crackers for you - dishonest ones, to boot.
I don't expect either of you dickshits to withdraw the accusation, let along apologise for it.
]Piss off and let the adults talk
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:42 AM

By the way - if the Government "loves immigration" - why as stopping it become such a feature of their policy?
Please don't deny it - just read what Theresa the Teaser says
As you say "crackers"!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:45 AM

But you keep beginning in medias res, Steve. Why are the 'mass media' rightwing? Because the 'mass' wouldn't buy them if they were leftwing, that's why. Where's The Daily Herald gone? I dimly remember it from my childhood. In common with all soi-disant believers in democracy, you can't adjust to, or get your head around, the fact that the δεμος won't take to socialism in any form - don't like it, don't trust it, don't want it. Don't you just despise the pathetic contemptible proles, eh, who are so easy to manipulate coz they are 'semi-literate politically' -- which means they have the temerity not to share your utterly discredited idealistic egalitarian vision, even after all the societies that have been supposed to practise it -- USSR, Maoist China, Tito's Yugo et al -- have been such conspicuous successes and exemplars to us all!

Oh, what's the use


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 11:57 AM

"Because the 'mass' wouldn't buy them if they were leftwing, "
You don't know that Mike - it's never been tried.
Even so, if we decide our culture on how it will sell, we may as well make a bonfire of Shakespeare, Hardy and Dickens and replace them with pop-pap
As far as the news media goes - the idea that it only prints what will sell is frightening - "anything fit to market" - now there's a twist on an old saying.
You never cease to disappoint me,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:17 PM

"it's never been tried"

Yes it has, Jim -- see above about the Daily Herald. It was the organ of the TU movement & Labour Party, explicitly established to sell alongside the publications of Beaverbrook & Kemsley & printed in similar format, and we had it at home in the 1930s. And where is it now? Ah, you are glad I asked you that, aren't you?

Will's plays have always played to big audiences, from The Globe onward. What other playwright's works have gone on filling theatres, non-stop & worldwide, for nearly half a millennium? Dickens sold millions in his day. Hardy made a good living, built a big house,, & still sells steadily. But where are the million-sellers of the likes of Ethel M Dell which come & go like mayflies? Sorry, can't get your point here at all.

Will just have to soldier on, living with the grief which your 'disappointment' in me induces, won't I alas! Mind you, your 'disappointment' [how caused BTW? -- still on about this 'mask, which I've never worn, are we?], strikes me as somewhat unmannerly & patronising. My remarks, as Dr Johnson remarked to a detractor of a work he admired, "were writ with little thought of pleasing you".

Best regards as always notwithstanding --
≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 12:50 PM

... and now I have demonstrated that, yes, it has been tried, just try asking yourself, Jim, why it hasn't been tried AGAIN...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 01:15 PM

Superfluous post, Michael. I'm resigned to the way things are. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to point out that an overwhelmingly right-wing media is bad for democracy, bad for helping people to make fair choices and good for keeping people semi-literate politically (which suits the right-wing down to the ground. No-one not of their ilk would ever vote Tory if they know what they are really like, self-interested, grabbing bastards whose número uno priority is to look after the well-heeled). Democracy is the best of a bad job, mainly because democracies hardly ever wage war on other democracies. Try to remember that when you're voting us out of Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:04 PM

Keith and Michael hit the nail on the head, the left have all but disappeared, to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites.

Of course the poor in thrall to a corrupt media would rather watch the prancing freaks on "Big Brother", or any of the other "reality" shows which dominate TV ....and now even radio.
The entertainment and information media is a disgusting pit of propaganda, crass, witless and foul mouthed.

The Herald was a serious newspaper, it was replaced by the more downmarket Sunday Herald, but most of the population have the concentration span of a midge on pot.
Real Socialism will be unpleasant for the middle classes, for those who believe they have the right to behave in any manner they like regardless of the cost to society.

We are all going to have to grow up, start educating our young people properly providing meaningful jobs for everyone whether they are interested in working or not....socialism will mean compulsion for the common good.....there will be no room for a liberalism which hands out houses benefits and food to immigrants while our own poor fester.

I wonder why the great powers cannot construct "safe areas" in the middle East as they did in the Balkans.....the flood of immigrants may be of benefit to Big Business and The NHS, to provide cheap labour, but in the long term they will change our countries beyond recognition.....and we won't bloody well like it, not even our Mudcat whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking ideologues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:18 PM

Well, you are A Real Friend Of The People, aren't you, Steve.   Perhaps, just maybe-waybe-waybe, a teensy-weensy itsy-bitsy ickle bit patronising, knowing so unerringly where their true interests lie so much better than the poor little dears can work it out for themselves?

Oh, dearie-wearie-wearie-me NO!: why, perish the very thought!

But don't, if you would be so kind, patronise me as if I was one of your tame·sweeti·pie-ickle·proles. I'll decide what I'll choose to remember while I vote about Europe, thankyouverymuch·justasame -- and come and go by Carterhaugh, while I'm about it, ask nae leave of thee!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:51 PM

Will resound to your post fully later Mike - probably tomorrow.
In the meantime - wonder why "A Real Friend Of The People" has become almost as insulting as "do gooder" or "bleeding heart"... or all the other once complementary phrases in the mouths of you right wingers - in the same way as a yearning for equality of opportunity has become "the politics of envy" - a bit "I'm the king of the castle" or, as we used to say in Liverpool "Ding - ding, I'm on the bus".
Personally, I find it smugly elitist and unpleasant - but then again, I'm only an 'oick'.
Some of us try to think outside Thatcher's 'dog-eat-dog' world and tend to worry about what's happened to society.
Your babytalk really isn't one of your most dmirable traits, Im afraid.
"to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
Christ almighty - hate to be the bearer of bad news Ake but the nearest you'll ever come tosocialism is National Socialism - what the hell are you on?
You are probably one of the most intolerantly vicious and dangerously right-wing fanatic I have ever encountered.
You describe yourself as a "conservative socialist", which is actually a contradiction in terms - Socialists wish to change thins for the better while Conservatives are quite happy with the way things are and are prepared to fight tooth and nail to conerve the status quo.
I once asked you your vies on the common ownership of the means of production and distribution (Socialism) - I received no answer; still working it out, I presume.
I assume I'm not going to get either an apology for or explanation of your dishonesty - didn't expect one really.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 03:10 PM

No Jim, you are the one who has it wrong I'm a political socialist and a social conservative.....is that so difficult to work out

I don't know of any proper socialist regime which was "liberal ...they are not the same thing at all.
Do you think Fidel Castro was a liberal..:0)?
Fidel was and probably still is, very socially conservative.

Of course I believe in public ownership of transport, power, production, even farming, but our people have become weak in mind and body unfit for the struggle, because they believe that individual "rights" are more important that the construction of a better society, they feel entitled to everything that life can give without having to contribute or conform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:10 PM

Silly post, Michael, even for you. Do try to address what people say, otherwise don't bother replying, if you don't want to look bloody stupid. Been here before so many times, haven't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 05:58 PM

Steve:- What conceivable warrant do you imagine yourself to have to address me in that patronising tone? What, out of interest, do you claim to have said worth addressing, that I have failed to 'address'?
Off with you and - ah - satisfy your needs, would you please?

And, Jim: you impress nobody with your wallowing in so much self-pity; nobody feels sorry for you. 'Oick', is it? You really think that how we regard you and that's the whole trouble? Ah diddums... Sorry meanwhile to see you once again embracing the esoteric discipline of the Higher Point-Missing, in which you have good claims to be one of the leading exponents in the history of the Universe.

Traditional greetings

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:43 PM

Michael, at your age you should have learned that light-hearted banter may be conducted in whatever playful tone the participants connive in. But serious conversation, particularly where some antagonism is involved, needs to ditch the patronising stupidity of the childish modes of address of the kind you resort to. It's about outcomes, dear boy, outcomes. And the outcome of your wit-free childish talk is that we all think that you're a bit of a twat. You bring it on yourself. In the illiterate terms of the common yank, go figure. Sorry to be less than gentle with a chap of your advancing years, but you really do need to be told.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 07:19 PM

"No Jim, you are the one who has it wrong I'm a political socialist and a social conservative"
You are an extremist right-winger - pure and simple
Socialism is about the fair distribution of wealth and equality of opportunity the fact that you refuse to respond to that fact makes you what you are - a caricature of an extremist.
"a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
You seem to be suffering from severe dyslexia, to boot - rights are what they are - rights.
They are not privileges, nobody gave them as a favour - they were hard-fought-for over centuries, the right to vote, the right to combine, the right to decent housing, sanitation, the right to work, to education, to decent health care.....
The last half century has seen the gradual whittling away of those hard-won rights - by people like you, and now, with the few we have left, when we claim them we're told we are "whining".
I ask again - what are you on? You certainly haven't overdosed on humanity.
You lie in defence of practices which have even been condemned by theh rightest-of-right Daily Mail, you sneer are people who regard laying human beings open to the worst of racist thugs in Britain as evil.... you defend every right wing statement, every move that would seek to improve the lot of homosexuals who have been at the mercy of bigotry and oppressive laws for many centuries......
If you are a 'socialist', my jack's a kipper.
I still have in mind that you are the only human being(sic) to have ever suggested that mass-murderer Brievik, who ruthlessly slaughtered all those young people, "was saying something worth listening to".
Time to open the window and let some fresh air in, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 02:21 AM

A post devoid of truth Jim, full of misrepresentation.

Most of it is unworthy of comment......but regarding Brievik, you have as usual quoted me out of context, you do that to everyone with whom you disagree. What was I was discussing in the Brievik thread, was the effect of unregulated and overly quick immigration on the population of the Scandinavian countries and the backlash it was likely to provoke.

Recent events have proved me correct.

I am not against immigration per se, but it must be managed in such a way as to allow immigrants to be assimilated into what is a totally alien society. This can never happen when the flood of immigrants is so great that the infrastructure cannot cope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Larsen E. Pettifogger
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 03:04 AM

...and who are prepared to lie, distort and misinterpret in their vain attempts to achieve their goal?"


As my dear old grandfather Litvak said (just before they swung the trap), he said "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump."


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 03:46 AM

"A post devoid of truth Jim, full of misrepresentation."
Nothing untrue there Ake - and your blanket denial proves that.
Be happy for you to take my points one by one and hold them up for examination, but I don't believe for one moment you are prepared to do that.
Your remark about Brievik having something worthwhile to say is archived and part of the dark history of this forum.
Your excuse for that remark only serves to underline the horror of that statement - it is a perfect companion to yor support for forcing asylum seekers to wear armbands and have their front doors painted red - which is still running.
Your claim to socialism still needs to be explained - you remain silent on that one, probably on the grounds that anything you do say might incriminate you (it's known as 'pleading the fifth' in the U.S.)
Your "political socialist and a social conservative" is in fact acute schizophrenia - the two terms are opposite - socialism is a desire to change society, conservatism is a desire to keep it from changing - and ne-er the two shall meet..
The ink is still dry on your contempt for our rights, but just in case it was uttered in a moment of madness, a reminder:
"to be replaced by a bunch of whining, rights inspired, entitlement seeking, parasites."
You are not against immigrants in the same way as you are not against homosexuals - you "support" them in the way a rope "supports" a hanging man".
"And, Jim: you impress nobody with your wallowing in so much self-pity; "
Don't you dare use your squalid Tory clichés on me Mike.
I have never at any time sought 'pity'
I did well with what we had - I worked all mu life and was able to retire comfortably on what we had.
If I popped my clogs tomorrow, I would be happy with whate Pat and I have left behind after decades of work in a field we believe to be important.
My concern is not for me but for what you people have made of the world - the wasteland of acquisition and bloodshed you have left to our children
How one gets from Pyotr Kropotkin to 'The Ghastly Gargoyle of Grantham' will remain for me one of life's great mysteries (and before you embark on another series of unpleasant accusations, I'm not an Anarchist, just an admirer of dedicated writing)
Yoy really picked up a nasty dose of 'me-me-me' during her reign of terror - please don't assume the rest of us did.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 04:56 AM

Jim, I just cant be bothered playing your childish games.
I always try to be truthful and give my views honestly.
I have never knowingly lied on this forum and do not misrepresent what people say. I rarely quote out of context, you do it continuously.

I could take any part of your posts Quote them out of context and make it look as if you meant something different....I do not participate in these sorts of games, neither do I participate in cursing or name calling.
I come here for decent discussion of serious subjects not a war of attrition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:02 AM

"Jim, I just cant be bothered playing your childish games."
You mean you're not prepared to defend your claims and your behaviour - didn't think for a moment that you would
You make your dishonest statements, you defend the indefensible, you insult people left right and centre - nothing new there Ake
I quote nothing out of context - what Breivik has to say, worth listening to or not, was drowned out by the sound of his gunning down 77 young people.
Nobody who commits such an atrocity has anything to say worth listening to.
If you make claims, you need to discuss them - that's the idea of public forums.
Stick behind 'The Fifth' - far safer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:35 AM

" Of course I believe in public ownership of transport, power, production, even farming, but our people have become weak in mind and body unfit for the struggle, because they believe that individual "rights" are more important that the construction of a better society, they feel entitled to everything that life can give without having to contribute or conform"

Why am I reminded of speeches in 1930's Germany when I read this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:37 AM

"...neither do I participate in cursing or name calling."


"If so, you're as daft as Jim.
Why don't "you people" grow up?"


Plenty more of that on this board.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:43 AM

Dear me, what a lovely pompous old booby that Steve is. As windable-up as my grandmother's old brass elephant clock. I hope he keeps it up: it's really quite entertaining.

(Wonder where that went BTW Had a lovely chime & I loved it as a child. Think my cousin in Washington DC might have grabbed it when she died.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 06:52 AM

"Why am I reminded of speeches in 1930's Germany when I read this?"
You notices that too?
Thought I was beginning to imagine it.
Jim Carroll


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 3 July 11:15 AM EDT

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