Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Feb 16 - 08:51 AM "My point is that you attacked and ridiculed Northern Ireland for having exactly the same ruling as Southern Ireland, where you choose to live." I did not - I attacked an archaic law that has just been confirmed by the Northern Ireland Assembly. We have argued in the past for the reason why the South has the laws and constitution it has - heavy-handed Church influence (you in fact, on the Halappanavar case, claimed the Church didn't make the laws and could be in no way blamed for what happened). I defend neither Governments for their stand on pregnancy termination (I don't defend politicians of any country - most are sharks) - but at least we in the Republic now stand a chance of shaking off the influence of the church and perhaps reversing the situation, while in the Brit-bit, things will continue as they always were. The church got its fingers severely burnt over the same-sex-marriage issue; the Bishop of Dublin described it as "a wake-up call for the church". Let's hope they have learned their lesson - though I ha'e ma doots!! For the record - this is the situation in Northern Ireland as it has just been confirmed in British Ireland. "But the law governing abortion in Northern Ireland is one of the most restrictive in Europe and carries the harshest criminal penalty of any European country – life imprisonment both for the woman who has an illegal abortion and for anyone who has assisted her. The 1967 Abortion Act has never been extended to Northern Ireland and abortion is only carried out when the life or mental health of the mother is deemed to be in danger. This happens very rarely; official statistics indicate that only 23 lawful terminations took place in Northern Ireland in 2013-14. The law means in practice that women who have money can get an abortion; those without cannot. Monday's judgment in Belfast's high court, ruling that aspects of the legislation contradict European human rights law, will do little to change that" Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Stu Date: 13 Feb 16 - 09:15 AM "The most explicable reason for us being here at all is a creator." Here endeth the lesson. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Feb 16 - 10:06 AM Musket, if you claim that some article supports your case, you have to let us see it. Maybe you misunderstood it. Maybe you took one piece out of context. Everyone else here does that. I am very suspicious of anyone who refuses. There is no reason why an honest person would refuse. Jim, you did attack and ridicule the Northern Assembly for making exactly the same ruling as they have where you live. you in fact, on the Halappanavar case, claimed the Church didn't make the laws and could be in no way blamed for what happened That is the case. You live in a secular democratic state. Thie Irish are a free and fiercely independent people, who have shown throughout the 20Century that they will fight any imposition of rule that they do not want. The death-grip of the church remains a factor in our law-making here Nonsense. The Church had just such a grip on both Italy and Ireland in the past. Democratic Italy chose to reject laws based on religion. Democratic Ireland chose to keep them. Like you, I think they are wrong, but I would never seek to impose my outsider values on a proud and independent people, and I am surprised that your neighbours tolerate you doing it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Feb 16 - 10:34 AM "Nonsense." Once again I agree - you are talking just that. Comparisons with what happens elsewhere is as crass as it gets in the light of what ha happened in Ireland - even the Bishop of Dublin has stated that the church has to come to terms with the fact that it no longer can rely on the power it once had, but it still attempts to wield what it has left. Church power was written into the Constitution when the State was formed - it is not just a matter of changing the law on these matters but altering the Constitution. The power of the Church was finally broken when the revelations on clerical abuse hit the fan, your that same church still controls over 90% of primary education and many schools are rejecting pupils on the basis that they do not have a Confirmation certificate - explain that one away. The Irish people have never been asked to vote on the power of the church - ever - the "democratic choice" that you claim is that of politicians - not that of the people - it would take a referendum to change that. I am not going to do this with you again Keith - the effect that the church has had on Irish lawmaking speaks for itself - your denials no longer work. No more Keith - unless you are going to show how the people have chosen - I'm tired to your permanent appeasement of tyrants and atrocities Finished, before we **** up this discussion - I suggest you have the decency to do the same Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 13 Feb 16 - 11:11 AM The most explicable reason for us being here at all is a creator Obviously the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Care to "explicate" further, pete? |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 13 Feb 16 - 11:38 AM The obvious question is then "where did a creator come from" to which the normal reply is a creator has always existed. Not really a satisfactory answer, if a creator can always exist then why not a universe. The vast difference is that people accept there was a start to the universe and are working towards an understanding of the origins of the same. Blindly chanting God did it doesn't satisfy a thinking or logical mind. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 13 Feb 16 - 11:42 AM Meanwhile, some signs of progress in Colombia: http://newsdaily.com/2016/02/more-than-5000-pregnant-women-in-colombia-have-zika-virus-government/ |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link Date: 13 Feb 16 - 12:51 PM Well, of course raggy, it will not be a satisfactory answer for an atheist. We have to admit an element of faith . I am not claiming proof. However, it seems logical to me that the creator has to be greater than, and outside of what he creates. Of course people are working toward an understanding of origins ", but blindly chanting (evolution )does it does,nt satisfy a thinking or logical mind ". Of course the likes of Greg May prefer the FSM to the biblical God , but that would be a case of that creator being of the same substance as what he creates , or do pastafarians posit spiritual spaggheti ?! |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Feb 16 - 01:40 PM Jim, in UK bishops have an input in law making. Is there any procedure for the Church to make laws in Ireland? No. It is a secular democracy just like Italy. They just made different choices. Your problem with democracy Jim, is that you think ordinary people too stupid to be given that responsibility. You and Stalin. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Feb 16 - 03:41 PM "Jim, in UK bishops have an input in law making." Different situation here, and you should know it The Jesuits put it perfectly "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man" They don'y need the laws, they have had the minds of the people from birth - and they are fighting tooth and nail to retain that grip, despite everything that has happened. Go away Keith - you are arguing with someone whose entire family grew up under the shadow of the Church - not your 'pretend' wishy-washy Christianity that allows you to support mass-murder and denigrate other religions, but the real thing. Go away and stop spoiling this discussion - our dialogue is done. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 13 Feb 16 - 04:39 PM I would suppose that the influence of the church does still have bearing in how the Irish think about morality, but i am sure the secularists are fighting tooth and nail to become the influential factor. We are all influenced by some philosophy or belief. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Musket Date: 13 Feb 16 - 04:45 PM Actually the bishops have a role in scrutinising law, not making it. And that is an anachronism that requires review. The Lords is always being reviewed mind. And for that matter, a private members bill that admittedly stands no chance has proposed that as CofE have an opt out on equality legislation that their membership is suspended till they accept all people as equal. Interesting and puts self righteous claptrap into perspective. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 13 Feb 16 - 05:36 PM Meanwhile, Tony Scalia just got spiked by the Almighty's own coathanger. Even I would think that leaving an unwanted foetus to age 79 is a bit late. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 13 Feb 16 - 06:24 PM Scalia: one down, two to go...... |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 16 - 08:42 PM With respect, Jack, I should like you to tell me where I suggested that Brazilian women are the victims of brainwashing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Feb 16 - 10:41 PM Jim Carroll says about Ireland: Church power was written into the Constitution when the State was formed Please explain, Jim. Thanks. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:50 AM Fifth Amendment of 1972 http://www.hallamor.org/today-in-irish-history-december-7/ |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:58 AM Thanks Guest With respect to all believers and non-believers here, none of these discussions should be about belief - what people personally believe or don't believe has nothing to do with today's 'Religious' problems. Rather, it has everything to do with the way certain individuals and groups in countries which describe themselves as 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or 'Catholic'.... or whatever, use peoples' beliefs for their own, more of often than not, material or political ends. They adopt a 'pick-'n-mix' attitude to their religions to suit their agendas - it is fine to kill your fellow man, despite your religion telling you it's a no-no, or to be acquisitive, and ignore the bit about camels passing through the eyes of needles... it's not even worth my mentioning the 'love thy neighbour' bit - long-gone. Yet they rake up obscure claimed utterances of claimed divine eccentrics to justify inter-religious warfare, misogyny, contraception, pregnancy termination, who can go to bed with whom, procreation.... taken as a whole, the use made of religion makes it the greatest threat to humanity today - in subjects like these, that threat has spilled over into matters of health and even life and death on a mass scale. I've spent most of my life among religious people who I have loved, respected and trusted utterly - forty years of recording Irish people who were devout in their beliefs yet who I have never had reason to disagree or fall out with. These were the people who took their belief seriously and were happy to accept my non-belief. I was not so long ago shown a letter from a dear late friend who we had recorded, mentioning my non- religion; it read something like; "he's not one of us but he is in practice a far better Christian than most churchgoers I know" - I treasure that. It's a somewhat hackneyed truism, but nevertheless true, that if Christ had been alive in 1950s America he'd have found himself in front of the House Unamerican Activities Committee - wonder if he'd have grassed up his twelve buddies!! Personal belief is fine by me as long as it is personal - it's when it is imposed on others or used to support wars and politics and injustices that we start punching each other. Jim Caroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:31 AM "The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens." So "Church power" was never "written into the constitution," and even its "special position" was written out over forty years ago! They don'y need the laws, they have had the minds of the people from birth - Same as Italy then. It is just democratic will of the people. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:34 AM It was implanted into the minds of the people from birth Keith - far mor effective than passing laws which can be broken when it suits - "what's bred in the bone..." and all that. That is the true danger of the Church, which is now relaxing thanks to their overstepping the mark with children. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:41 AM Same as Italy then, but the people chose differently. I think that the people should be allowed to choose their own path. You and Stalin disagree. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:20 AM "Same as Italy then, " Italy was a typical example of the church's pragmatism in coming to terms with its limitations - no comparison. Italy had come through fascism - supported by the Church - "Hitler's Pope" who had turned his back on the Jews being herded into the extermination camps. The Italian left were extremely powerful in the support they had from overwhelming practicing Catholics - in order that the Church retained their position in Italy they had to give ground - I doubt they would have survived a head-to-head battle there - so they compromised. That was not the position in Ireland; respect for the church was written into the constitution - they had no need to compromise. At the height of clerical abuse in Ireland children were being punished and humiliated for suggesting that their priests were sexually abusing them - this happened with the victims of Brendan Smythe, who is said to have sexually abused and assaulted over 143 children - you can't have more proof of the power of the church than that. General question to all. Does anybody here agree with this twot? He's like a mosquito buzzing around and spreading his inanities. If we're not careful we are all going to come down with a nasty dose of Zika Go away Keith - and don't you dare accuse me of being a Stalinist Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 07:11 AM This is not about fascism or child abuse. The Church had Italy, Steve, and all the other lapsed Catholics until they were seven. Are the Irish inherently more stupid than everyone else? |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 08:00 AM "This is not about fascism or child abuse." No - it is about the influence of the church - fascism and child abuse is indelibly a part of the history of that church, as is its support for wartime fascism and its persistent support for right wing governments - Chile with its mass murders, post- Civil War Spain with its massacres of tens of thousands of Franco oppositionists (just reading Paul Preston's horrific The Spanish Holocaust'). No - the Irish are not stupid - it is you who have written them off as gullible and brainwashed in the past though - you specifically referred to Irish children as being "brainwashed" over their own history - can't have it both ways. Your wisdom on the Irish Famine: " 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM "Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."" Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:54 AM Catholic leaders warning against contraception Bishops oppose birth control, abortion as ways to handle illness By Laurie Goodstein, New York Times Published 9:04 pm, Saturday, February 13, 2016 As the Zika virus spreads in Latin America, Catholic leaders are warning women against using contraceptives or having abortions, even as health officials in some countries are advising women not to get pregnant because of the risk of birth defects. "Contraceptives are not a solution," said Bishop Leonardo Ulrich Steiner, the secretary general of the National Council of Bishops of Brazil, and an auxiliary bishop of Brasília, in an interview. "There is not a single change in the church's position." Article Here |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Musket Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:22 AM If any irresponsible organisation other than sky pixie entrepreneurs said that, they would be held to account. We deserve better than medieval interference in matters they clearly don't understand and by their despicable deeds, don't wish to understand either. Presumably the god botherers on Mudcat will wish to preach at people of a higher intelligence and sense of morality again... |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Donuel Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:32 AM There are Countless unknowns about Zika and possible poisonous agents. There will be even more unknowns to come over the next 2 years until a vaccine is perfected. Abortion controversy is fairly well known. Would you object if I place select links of all of your submissions into the Zika truth thread for ease of search ability on Zika breakthroughs as they develop? For those who need to know the latest knowledge about Zika should consult WHO ( world health organization ) |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:52 PM Jim, the quote you posted was inspired by an historian you greatly approve of, Chrisine Kinealy. She writes, "Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border" Hence "brainwashing." http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/ |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:54 PM Once again, instead of discussing the issue, you dredge up stuff from years old threads! Why do you do it Jim? |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:04 PM Would you object if I place select links of all of your submissions into the Zika truth thread for ease of search ability on Zika breakthroughs as they develop? I can't stop you but I'll never look there. The whole point of that thread was conspiracy theory denialist garbage, which is even worse than having a thread polluted by reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks who've got to get the last word. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:08 PM "Once again, instead of discussing the issue, you dredge up stuff from years old threads! Why do you do it Jim?" It has everything to do with this Keith - it is about the Church's interference with how we live. Why is it that you always participate in these subjects and whenever you paint yourself into a corner you squeal "thread drift" You disputed my reference to Ireland and was quite happy to continue until you landed yourself in the klarts with you stupidity and short memory. Even if this weer not the case, it is none of your ***** business what aspects of this people choose to bring up - mind your own business. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:12 PM And you are stil claiming that Irish children were brainwashed after accusing me of being a Stalinist for accusing me of saying the same thing How ****** stupid can you get? Stop digging Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:15 PM reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks To some of us it is posters like you who are the reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks, it all depends on ones perspective, doesn't it? But do go on with your ad hominems, it only serves to strengthen our resolve. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:43 PM Labs are rushing to make a vaccine for the Zika virus, but some Brazilian doctors are speculating that the deformity resulting was caused by a Monsanto insecticide that was meant to kill the mosquito larva. The next few weeks should tell the tale. I just know what I read in the papers. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:15 PM the deformity resulting was caused by a Monsanto insecticide that was meant to kill the mosquito larva. Even if that doesn't play out, the fact that they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap all over the place in a futile attempt to eradicate adult mosquitos should have some "interesting" results on both adults and fetuses. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Onderdonk Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:05 PM The most dangerous person is the one who is always right --Sliversprings Guru |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/02/05/zika-virus-the-conspiracy-theories-flow-fast-and-furious/ That's worth a read, Greg. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:56 PM they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap Source please. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 16 - 08:10 PM they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap Source please. Name please. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:12 PM Source please Guess you don't watch, listen to, or read the news, eh Ghost? |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:16 PM Interesting article, Bruse, Thanks. As you've said: time will tell. I note also that the article mentions Goofus' old buddy, Alex Jones. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:34 PM Guess you don't watch, listen to, or read the news Nice attempt at a cop out but I suggest a fashionable tin foil hat as a useful addition to your wardrobe. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:43 PM http://www.techtimes.com/articles/133548/20160214/monsanto-larvicide-not-zika-virus-true-cause-of-brazils-microcephaly-outbreak-doctors.htm |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:13 PM Re the Tech Times article: "a group of Argentine physicians suggest" is not scientific evidence. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 11:41 PM You are correct. That said, it's in Brazil where the first linking of Zika and microcephaly has been considered. A link between the two is circumstantial at this point. That is why earlier I said the next few weeks will tell the tale. Larva spraying did take place. There has been a Zika outbreak. I don't doubt epidemiologists are looking at areas of concentration and wondering why there seem to be more mothers from Brazil giving birth to microcephalic children than elsewhere (on a per capita basis). Same mosquito, same virus, different results in terms of new-borns being microcephalic. So is there something else happening there that isn't in other places? I think the WHO has jumped on this quickly and I hope the speed with which they are banging the gong is not blinding them to all the possibilities. (I expect they are still chagrined over their ineptitude during the Ebola outbreak.) We'll see what the epidemiologists come up with. I agree it's a good idea to develop a vaccine for the virus, but if there is a higher number of children born with microcephaly in Brazil than most other places that have the mosquito and the virus, then perhaps there is something else causing and/or contributing to that. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Feb 16 - 04:45 AM I agree it's a good idea to develop a vaccine for the virus, but if there is a higher number of children born with microcephaly in Brazil than most other places that have the mosquito and the virus, then perhaps there is something else causing and/or contributing to that. Even if that turned out to be the case, the Brazilian church would still have the same problem of what do about it - microcephaly is an epidemic with catastrophic impact, and the only effective responses are contraception and abortion. There have been enough linked cases in other parts of Latin America to suggest that national differences are mainly due to how far the epidemic has progressed and how effective the healthcare systems have been at finding affected babies. |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:03 PM Seems like contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. Artificial contraceptives are legal and widely available in Brazil. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/brazil-abortion/ Abortion is illegal in Brazil, with a few exceptions, so that's still a major issue. I'm not sure I agree with Jack that abortion and contraception are the only effective responses to to possibility of microcephaly. I'm sure some women will choose to give birth to a handicapped child, and sometimes there will be no microcephaly, or it will be minor. Or maybe somebody will find a cure. I think it's best to consider all possibilities and all realities. One reality is that the Catholic Church is highly unlikely to change its opposition to abortion, no matter how many people condemn the church for having that opinion. The only solution is what Catholics and children have done for millennia - ignore what the old men say when it doesn't make sense. Don't hate the old men. Listen to them when they're wise, and ignore them when they're not. Another reality is the political process, both in church and in government. Like it or not, many political bodies (including churches) do not follow strict parliamentary procedures. But no matter how the process works, consensus always plays a major part in the way things work. Rulers can impose their will only so far. If there is a vast consensus in opposition, the rulers or the rules will fall - or will simply be ignored. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:27 PM Seems like contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. You must have missed this, Joe: Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:54 AM Catholic leaders warning against contraception Bishops oppose birth control, abortion as ways to handle illness By Laurie Goodstein, New York Times Published 9:04 pm, Saturday, February 13, 2016 As the Zika virus spreads in Latin America, Catholic leaders are warning women against using contraceptives or having abortions, even as health officials in some countries are advising women not to get pregnant because of the risk of birth defects. "Contraceptives are not a solution," said Bishop Leonardo Ulrich Steiner, the secretary general of the National Council of Bishops of Brazil, and an auxiliary bishop of Brasília, in an interview. "There is not a single change in the church's position." |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:42 PM but is it ENTIRELY due to a virus or is it anything to do with monanto and their pesticides escaping in to the water supplies? |
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:48 PM You are all accepting that the only cause is a virus, you are not questioning the official line, it may be only a contributory factor and a smoke screen, think about it. |