 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Feb 16 - 07:01 AM "I just thought that was worth repeating." It wasn't, but don't apologise - you don't usually Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Musket Date: 16 Feb 16 - 05:02 AM It doesn't necessarily make them nice either. I have opinion x Fred has opinion y. So far so hoopy. No arguments over whose round it is next. My opinion has no detrimental effect on others. Fred's opinion needs losers to gain his winners. Whose round is it? My opinion is free of ideology. Fred can't unshackle his opinion from what he was brought up thinking. I'll buy the beers because poor old Fred is deluded. My opinion isn't perfect, has a few holes in it but I'm comfortable with it. Fred states that he could say the same about his. Fred's round. My opinion is based on weighing up the evidence and I say so. Fred resorts to lies and distortions to bring people round to his view. Time to glass the bastard. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Feb 16 - 04:52 AM Gee, I guess you ideological types just don't get what I'm saying. Maybe that's why you get so nasty in the Forum, because you can't accept that it's not the end of the world when people have opinions that differ from your own, narrow ideology. Even if they're wrong, that does not mean that they are evil people. They simply see things differently. I just thought that was worth repeating. Sorry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Feb 16 - 04:52 AM "But I think most Catholics see contraception as a non-issue because they have ignored church prohibition" But while these "elderly, celibate men" remain where they are their neanderthal views remain an issue - they are a life-or-death hurdle to be vaulted over, largely by third world people who are struggling to stay alive anyway. If your religion is going to survive (and I confess I don't care one way or the other) their power has to be neutralised and they have to be confined to spiritual matters only - and that on a totally voluntary basis only. Hopefully, I will live long enough to see their 90 percent plus control over childrens' minds in our education system disappear reduced to no percent - that's where the rot begins, as the Jesuits have so articulately pointed out. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Feb 16 - 12:28 AM Gee, I guess you ideological types just don't get what I'm saying. Maybe that's why you get so nasty in the Forum, because you can't accept that it's not the end of the world when people have opinions that differ from your own, narrow ideology. Even if they're wrong, that does not mean that they are evil people. They simply see things differently. And that's why I've used the term "born-again atheists" - because it's the same kind of rigid, ideological mindset that the born-again fundamentalists espouse, that you're not "saved" unless you think the right thoughts. Yes, yes, yes, the Catholic Church has declared abortion and artificial contraception to be immoral. Please take note that these declarations were issued by elderly, celibate men (and the younger priests in the pipeline are even more conservative). Those in authority have painted themselves into a corner on abortion and contraception, and aren't likely to change even if they'd like to. Please also take note that Catholics use birth control and have abortions at the same or higher rate as other people in their cultures. I think this means that most Catholics are mature enough and intelligent enough not to take sex advice from elderly, celibate men who are not going to change their positions on these issues. But I think most Catholics see contraception as a non-issue because they have ignored church prohibitions for long. And life goes on. And Jim Carroll, you should be ashamed of yourself for using a link from the Daily Mail and a 2012 article about a 2009 incident from some unknown site called thinkprogress.org. Try using reputable sources, for a change. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: DMcG Date: 15 Feb 16 - 09:41 PM No-one mocks Christians merely for being Christian. Christians who try out loud to claim merit for their beliefs, or who justify malpractice such as forcing religion on children, or who post on secular websites offering or asking for prayers, or who moralise at people, about abortion for example, in the name of God, are fair game for mockery, and, if mockery's all they get, they should consider that they've been let off lightly. In your many years of teaching sex education, Steve, you must have met pupils in relationships where one was atheist or agnostic and the other fervently evangelical. How did you address your laudable objectives of stressing mutual respect and agreement to differ? Encouraging one to mock the others beliefs doesn't sound very appropriate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 16 - 08:29 PM "I'll stick with my contention that contraception is a non-issue in Brazil." "I'll stick with my contention that contraception is a non-issue in Brazil." Anybody who has any experience of the Catholic Church in full spate knows how difficult it is to overcome this sort of 'advice' ENLIGHTENED BRAZIL FURTHER ENLIGHTENMENT Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 15 Feb 16 - 08:24 PM To GUEST Date: 15 Feb 16 - 06:22 PM Thanks for that link. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 15 Feb 16 - 08:06 PM Greg F - I'll stick with my contention that contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. Fine by ME Joe - only your contention doesn't seem to be supported by facts, but by wishful thinking. That's what makes horse races, I suppose. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Feb 16 - 07:32 PM Greg F - I'll stick with my contention that contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. I linked above to an article at the PBS (US Public Broadcasting Service) Website (click). Here's an excerpt:
Most people are smart enough not to take sex advice from celibate old men. And although their advice on sex may be distorted, that doesn't mean that they are evil people or that they may not be credible voices on other subjects like poverty and immigration and abolishment of the death penalty. I think that many posters here are under the illusion that Catholic bishops exercise some sort of mind control, and that Catholics feel obliged to follow their every whim. That just isn't true - and never was. Catholics are no stupider than anybody else. And for that matter, I think most people aren't as stupid as we seem to think they are - even if they live in different countries or belong to different political parties or practice different religious traditions. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 16 - 06:22 PM Could a different devil be somewhere in the details? http://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/16-170639.pdf |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 15 Feb 16 - 05:37 PM "The report also pointed out that there had been no cases of microcephaly in other countries affected by Zika, such as Colombia, which has the highest incidence of the virus after Brazil." It does look like pyriproxyfen will have to be studied to see the affect it has on women who are bearing children with microcephaly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 15 Feb 16 - 04:53 PM it may be only a contributory factor and a smoke screen Then again, there's an equal chance that it may not be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 15 Feb 16 - 04:22 PM Article from the Telegraph (UK) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/zika/12157747/Zika-virus-Brazil-dismisses-link-between-larvicide-and-microcephaly.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:48 PM You are all accepting that the only cause is a virus, you are not questioning the official line, it may be only a contributory factor and a smoke screen, think about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:42 PM but is it ENTIRELY due to a virus or is it anything to do with monanto and their pesticides escaping in to the water supplies? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:27 PM Seems like contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. You must have missed this, Joe: Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:54 AM Catholic leaders warning against contraception Bishops oppose birth control, abortion as ways to handle illness By Laurie Goodstein, New York Times Published 9:04 pm, Saturday, February 13, 2016 As the Zika virus spreads in Latin America, Catholic leaders are warning women against using contraceptives or having abortions, even as health officials in some countries are advising women not to get pregnant because of the risk of birth defects. "Contraceptives are not a solution," said Bishop Leonardo Ulrich Steiner, the secretary general of the National Council of Bishops of Brazil, and an auxiliary bishop of Brasília, in an interview. "There is not a single change in the church's position." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:03 PM Seems like contraception is a non-issue in Brazil. Artificial contraceptives are legal and widely available in Brazil. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/brazil-abortion/ Abortion is illegal in Brazil, with a few exceptions, so that's still a major issue. I'm not sure I agree with Jack that abortion and contraception are the only effective responses to to possibility of microcephaly. I'm sure some women will choose to give birth to a handicapped child, and sometimes there will be no microcephaly, or it will be minor. Or maybe somebody will find a cure. I think it's best to consider all possibilities and all realities. One reality is that the Catholic Church is highly unlikely to change its opposition to abortion, no matter how many people condemn the church for having that opinion. The only solution is what Catholics and children have done for millennia - ignore what the old men say when it doesn't make sense. Don't hate the old men. Listen to them when they're wise, and ignore them when they're not. Another reality is the political process, both in church and in government. Like it or not, many political bodies (including churches) do not follow strict parliamentary procedures. But no matter how the process works, consensus always plays a major part in the way things work. Rulers can impose their will only so far. If there is a vast consensus in opposition, the rulers or the rules will fall - or will simply be ignored. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Feb 16 - 04:45 AM I agree it's a good idea to develop a vaccine for the virus, but if there is a higher number of children born with microcephaly in Brazil than most other places that have the mosquito and the virus, then perhaps there is something else causing and/or contributing to that. Even if that turned out to be the case, the Brazilian church would still have the same problem of what do about it - microcephaly is an epidemic with catastrophic impact, and the only effective responses are contraception and abortion. There have been enough linked cases in other parts of Latin America to suggest that national differences are mainly due to how far the epidemic has progressed and how effective the healthcare systems have been at finding affected babies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 11:41 PM You are correct. That said, it's in Brazil where the first linking of Zika and microcephaly has been considered. A link between the two is circumstantial at this point. That is why earlier I said the next few weeks will tell the tale. Larva spraying did take place. There has been a Zika outbreak. I don't doubt epidemiologists are looking at areas of concentration and wondering why there seem to be more mothers from Brazil giving birth to microcephalic children than elsewhere (on a per capita basis). Same mosquito, same virus, different results in terms of new-borns being microcephalic. So is there something else happening there that isn't in other places? I think the WHO has jumped on this quickly and I hope the speed with which they are banging the gong is not blinding them to all the possibilities. (I expect they are still chagrined over their ineptitude during the Ebola outbreak.) We'll see what the epidemiologists come up with. I agree it's a good idea to develop a vaccine for the virus, but if there is a higher number of children born with microcephaly in Brazil than most other places that have the mosquito and the virus, then perhaps there is something else causing and/or contributing to that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:13 PM Re the Tech Times article: "a group of Argentine physicians suggest" is not scientific evidence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:43 PM http://www.techtimes.com/articles/133548/20160214/monsanto-larvicide-not-zika-virus-true-cause-of-brazils-microcephaly-outbreak-doctors.htm |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:34 PM Guess you don't watch, listen to, or read the news Nice attempt at a cop out but I suggest a fashionable tin foil hat as a useful addition to your wardrobe. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:16 PM Interesting article, Bruse, Thanks. As you've said: time will tell. I note also that the article mentions Goofus' old buddy, Alex Jones. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:12 PM Source please Guess you don't watch, listen to, or read the news, eh Ghost? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 16 - 08:10 PM they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap Source please. Name please. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:56 PM they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap Source please. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/02/05/zika-virus-the-conspiracy-theories-flow-fast-and-furious/ That's worth a read, Greg. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Onderdonk Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:05 PM The most dangerous person is the one who is always right --Sliversprings Guru |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:15 PM the deformity resulting was caused by a Monsanto insecticide that was meant to kill the mosquito larva. Even if that doesn't play out, the fact that they're spraying metric tons of god-knows-what toxic crap all over the place in a futile attempt to eradicate adult mosquitos should have some "interesting" results on both adults and fetuses. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:43 PM Labs are rushing to make a vaccine for the Zika virus, but some Brazilian doctors are speculating that the deformity resulting was caused by a Monsanto insecticide that was meant to kill the mosquito larva. The next few weeks should tell the tale. I just know what I read in the papers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:15 PM reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks To some of us it is posters like you who are the reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks, it all depends on ones perspective, doesn't it? But do go on with your ad hominems, it only serves to strengthen our resolve. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:12 PM And you are stil claiming that Irish children were brainwashed after accusing me of being a Stalinist for accusing me of saying the same thing How ****** stupid can you get? Stop digging Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:08 PM "Once again, instead of discussing the issue, you dredge up stuff from years old threads! Why do you do it Jim?" It has everything to do with this Keith - it is about the Church's interference with how we live. Why is it that you always participate in these subjects and whenever you paint yourself into a corner you squeal "thread drift" You disputed my reference to Ireland and was quite happy to continue until you landed yourself in the klarts with you stupidity and short memory. Even if this weer not the case, it is none of your ***** business what aspects of this people choose to bring up - mind your own business. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Feb 16 - 01:04 PM Would you object if I place select links of all of your submissions into the Zika truth thread for ease of search ability on Zika breakthroughs as they develop? I can't stop you but I'll never look there. The whole point of that thread was conspiracy theory denialist garbage, which is even worse than having a thread polluted by reactionary wankers and compulsive dorks who've got to get the last word. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:54 PM Once again, instead of discussing the issue, you dredge up stuff from years old threads! Why do you do it Jim? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:52 PM Jim, the quote you posted was inspired by an historian you greatly approve of, Chrisine Kinealy. She writes, "Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border" Hence "brainwashing." http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Donuel Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:32 AM There are Countless unknowns about Zika and possible poisonous agents. There will be even more unknowns to come over the next 2 years until a vaccine is perfected. Abortion controversy is fairly well known. Would you object if I place select links of all of your submissions into the Zika truth thread for ease of search ability on Zika breakthroughs as they develop? For those who need to know the latest knowledge about Zika should consult WHO ( world health organization ) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,Musket Date: 14 Feb 16 - 10:22 AM If any irresponsible organisation other than sky pixie entrepreneurs said that, they would be held to account. We deserve better than medieval interference in matters they clearly don't understand and by their despicable deeds, don't wish to understand either. Presumably the god botherers on Mudcat will wish to preach at people of a higher intelligence and sense of morality again... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Greg F. Date: 14 Feb 16 - 09:54 AM Catholic leaders warning against contraception Bishops oppose birth control, abortion as ways to handle illness By Laurie Goodstein, New York Times Published 9:04 pm, Saturday, February 13, 2016 As the Zika virus spreads in Latin America, Catholic leaders are warning women against using contraceptives or having abortions, even as health officials in some countries are advising women not to get pregnant because of the risk of birth defects. "Contraceptives are not a solution," said Bishop Leonardo Ulrich Steiner, the secretary general of the National Council of Bishops of Brazil, and an auxiliary bishop of Brasília, in an interview. "There is not a single change in the church's position." Article Here |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 08:00 AM "This is not about fascism or child abuse." No - it is about the influence of the church - fascism and child abuse is indelibly a part of the history of that church, as is its support for wartime fascism and its persistent support for right wing governments - Chile with its mass murders, post- Civil War Spain with its massacres of tens of thousands of Franco oppositionists (just reading Paul Preston's horrific The Spanish Holocaust'). No - the Irish are not stupid - it is you who have written them off as gullible and brainwashed in the past though - you specifically referred to Irish children as being "brainwashed" over their own history - can't have it both ways. Your wisdom on the Irish Famine: " 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM "Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 07:11 AM This is not about fascism or child abuse. The Church had Italy, Steve, and all the other lapsed Catholics until they were seven. Are the Irish inherently more stupid than everyone else? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 06:20 AM "Same as Italy then, " Italy was a typical example of the church's pragmatism in coming to terms with its limitations - no comparison. Italy had come through fascism - supported by the Church - "Hitler's Pope" who had turned his back on the Jews being herded into the extermination camps. The Italian left were extremely powerful in the support they had from overwhelming practicing Catholics - in order that the Church retained their position in Italy they had to give ground - I doubt they would have survived a head-to-head battle there - so they compromised. That was not the position in Ireland; respect for the church was written into the constitution - they had no need to compromise. At the height of clerical abuse in Ireland children were being punished and humiliated for suggesting that their priests were sexually abusing them - this happened with the victims of Brendan Smythe, who is said to have sexually abused and assaulted over 143 children - you can't have more proof of the power of the church than that. General question to all. Does anybody here agree with this twot? He's like a mosquito buzzing around and spreading his inanities. If we're not careful we are all going to come down with a nasty dose of Zika Go away Keith - and don't you dare accuse me of being a Stalinist Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:41 AM Same as Italy then, but the people chose differently. I think that the people should be allowed to choose their own path. You and Stalin disagree. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:34 AM It was implanted into the minds of the people from birth Keith - far mor effective than passing laws which can be broken when it suits - "what's bred in the bone..." and all that. That is the true danger of the Church, which is now relaxing thanks to their overstepping the mark with children. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:31 AM "The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens." So "Church power" was never "written into the constitution," and even its "special position" was written out over forty years ago! They don'y need the laws, they have had the minds of the people from birth - Same as Italy then. It is just democratic will of the people. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Feb 16 - 03:58 AM Thanks Guest With respect to all believers and non-believers here, none of these discussions should be about belief - what people personally believe or don't believe has nothing to do with today's 'Religious' problems. Rather, it has everything to do with the way certain individuals and groups in countries which describe themselves as 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or 'Catholic'.... or whatever, use peoples' beliefs for their own, more of often than not, material or political ends. They adopt a 'pick-'n-mix' attitude to their religions to suit their agendas - it is fine to kill your fellow man, despite your religion telling you it's a no-no, or to be acquisitive, and ignore the bit about camels passing through the eyes of needles... it's not even worth my mentioning the 'love thy neighbour' bit - long-gone. Yet they rake up obscure claimed utterances of claimed divine eccentrics to justify inter-religious warfare, misogyny, contraception, pregnancy termination, who can go to bed with whom, procreation.... taken as a whole, the use made of religion makes it the greatest threat to humanity today - in subjects like these, that threat has spilled over into matters of health and even life and death on a mass scale. I've spent most of my life among religious people who I have loved, respected and trusted utterly - forty years of recording Irish people who were devout in their beliefs yet who I have never had reason to disagree or fall out with. These were the people who took their belief seriously and were happy to accept my non-belief. I was not so long ago shown a letter from a dear late friend who we had recorded, mentioning my non- religion; it read something like; "he's not one of us but he is in practice a far better Christian than most churchgoers I know" - I treasure that. It's a somewhat hackneyed truism, but nevertheless true, that if Christ had been alive in 1950s America he'd have found himself in front of the House Unamerican Activities Committee - wonder if he'd have grassed up his twelve buddies!! Personal belief is fine by me as long as it is personal - it's when it is imposed on others or used to support wars and politics and injustices that we start punching each other. Jim Caroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: GUEST,# Date: 14 Feb 16 - 12:50 AM Fifth Amendment of 1972 http://www.hallamor.org/today-in-irish-history-december-7/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Feb 16 - 10:41 PM Jim Carroll says about Ireland: Church power was written into the Constitution when the State was formed Please explain, Jim. Thanks. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 16 - 08:42 PM With respect, Jack, I should like you to tell me where I suggested that Brazilian women are the victims of brainwashing. |