The trees they do grow high: medieval?

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Felipa
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:09 PM

Is this song unique to the English/Scots language world or are there versions of old origin found in other countries, other languages? If the song is strongly connected with the Craigston story it may be, but there are also suggestions in this discussion that the song travelled across Europe. Also the https://earlymusicmuse.com/the-trees-they-do-grow-high/ article (the link was posted early on in this discussion) mentions some marriages in the French aristocracy:

"On 6th December 1697, Princess Marie Adélaïde of Savoy became the wife of Louis, Dauphin of France and Duke of Burgundy, in the Palace of Versailles. He was 15. It was her 12th birthday.

"On 19th April 1770, Marie Antoinette was legally married by proxy in Vienna to the Dauphin of France. Her new husband, the Dauphin, Louis Auguste, was not only absent – her brother, Archduke Ferdinand, stood in for him – she had never even met him. She did so a month later, on 14th May, with the ceremonial wedding in the Palace of Versailles 2 days later. He was 15. She was 14."

It seems to me highly likely that there are songs in other European languages which are very similar to "The College Boy", "Lang a-growing" etc. Can you suggest any, give any titles and/or lyrics?

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

I'm finally finished with "Trees". I did get a nice article from Mary Ellen Brown titled, "The progress of Lady Mary Ann" about Burns recreation which she wrote in the 70s and was kind enough to send. Special thanks to Steve Gardham and Steve Roud for getting me a copy of the Scottish Broadside and other versions. I have less than 100 version on my site but there are over 100 versions of the ballad.

If anyone can proof my Headnotes it would be a big help- I'm at times sloppy and I can't type :) Here's the Headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

All the UK (plus one Aussie by Sally Sloane) versions, about 73 are here (notes almost complete): http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-5-a-growing-.aspx

The 11 versions from North America are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-5-a-growing-the-trees.aspx

Any comments, suggestions can be posted here or emailed (corrections esp.) to [e-mail]

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 08:52 PM

Hi,

Baring-Gould postulated an English origin and of course their are many "real instances of a young lad in an arranged marriage dying and leaving a son." Nothing has been found however to back it up. Baring-Gould's guessed but never had any facts to back it up. Then Broadwood and every collector has parroted this for no obvious reason.

However when the melody was collected in Scotland in 1675 and the first 7 versions are Scottish it might actually have something.

The fact that her 2nd husband was a Lord, rich heir and underage attending King's College since he was 14 and she was about 4 years older than this underage boy when they married in 1635- might be more compelling evidence. Lord Alexander Brodie was the College Boy.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM

Even if the details of a particular version exactly match the details of a specific historical episode, that wouldn't settle anything. No doubt there have been meny times when there have been real instances of a young lad in an arranged marriage dying and leaving a son.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:58 PM

Another version by Lizzie Higgins is "The College Boy (Young Craigston)" on her 1969 Topic album "Princess of the Thistle". It was recorded by Bill Leader on January 5, 1968. The lyrics are quite similar to those posted by hsempl two days ago but they end

With every stitch I put in it, the tears will flow down,
For cruel fate put an end to his growing.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

One online source says Lizzie learned this ballad in the 1940s from her father, Donald 'Donty' Higgins.

I hear McAllister too but not the first part.

Here's the link if anyone can hear the name at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wswYFNon5hc

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: hsempl
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 11:04 PM

Hi Richie,
Thank you so much for this comprehensive list of versions! I note that at the end of the 1958 recording, Lizzie is asked who she learned it from, and she says the name and that it was 12 years before, so in 1946, when she would have been only about 17 years old, but I'm afraid I can't quite make it out. I am pretty sure the last name is Mcallister, but not sure of the first one. You will probably be able to make it out.
Heather

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 10:17 PM

Hi,

It's easier to hear Penfold with the text;

Only the 2nd- 4th stanzas appear on Penfold's 1907 recording -link in last post:

"O father, dear father you have dome something wrong,
You've bound me to that man which you know is very young."
"O daughter, wait a while, you will quickly have a son
And a lady you will be, while he growing."
"O daughter, wait a while, you will quickly have a son
And a lady you will be, while he growing."

We will send him to the college for another year or two,
Perhaps that's time my love that he will do for you,
We'll buy him a bunch of white ribbons to tie round his waist so fine,
Just to let the ladies know that he's married.
We'll buy him a bunch of white ribbons to tie round his waist so fine,
Just to let the ladies know that he's married.

She went to the college and looked over the wall,
Saw four and twenty gentlemen there, playing at the ball,
They would not let her in but her true love she did call,
Because he was so long and a-growing.
They would not let her in but her true love she did call,
Because he was so long and a-growing.

At the age of sixteen he was a married man
At the age of seventeen he was the father of a son,
At the age of eighteen grass was growing over him,
Cruel death had put an end to his growing.
At the age of eighteen grass was growing over him,
Cruel death had put an end to his growing.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 10:05 PM

Hi,

Here's a link to "The Bonny Boy" as performed by A.L. "Bert" Lloyd. Recorded in London, UK, 1951; Call number: AFC 2004/004: T3280R06.
Listen: http://research.culturalequity.org/rc-b2/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=10260

Who's version did he record? (see answer below- backwards) Hint: When Broadwood published it a second time she left off the "sex" stanza.

The 1907 recording by Vaughan Williams is also online: http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Ethnographic-wax-cylinders/025M-C0037X1583XX-0100V0

According to the MS it's by William Penfold (ref. Roud) but the online version says David Penfold was Landlord of the Plough Inn at Rusper in 1907. Anyone?


Answer: (read backwards) edE egroeG

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM

TYVM I assume this is the version recorded by Sandy Paton. Lizzie was so taken by the ballad she went to the Craigston Castle. I still don't have her source but I though it might be Stanley Robertson.

Steve- I finally got the text to the Wehman Broadside, dated about 1880. It is broadside No. 756 by H. J. Wehman of 50 Chatham St., New York, which was the first version published in the US. The text was reprinted in Good Old-time Songs, Issue 3 by Wehman bros., firm, publishers; 1914:

MY BONNY BOY IS YOUNG, BUT HE'S GROWING

Oh! father, dear father, you've done me much harm.
You've married me a man that is twice too young;
I'm twice twelve and he is but thirteen.
He's young but he's daily growing.

Oh! daughter, dear daughter, I've done you no harm,
I've married you to a rich man's son;
He'll make you a lady if you wait on,
He's young but he's daily growing.

Oh! father, dear father, if you think it fit,
We will send him to college for one year yet;
We will tie a green ribbon around about his head
To let the pretty girls know he's married.

As she chanced to look over her father's garden wall,
'Twas there she saw some men at the tossing of a ball.
Saying, my own true lover is the fairest of them all,
He's young but he's daily growing.

She bought him a shirt of the cambric so fine,
And stitched it all 'round to suit her mind;
As site sat a sewing, the tears came rolling down,
Said she, my bonny boy's a long time growing,

At thirteen he was a married man,
At fourteen his young babe was born.
At fifteen his grave it was green.
And that put an end to his growing.

Any other versions? I'm finishing up the US versions and have improved my headnotes here:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: hsempl
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

I know you have the Lizzie Higgins version from 1973 above, but I don't think you have this version yet from the Folk-Legacy Archives, recorded in 1958. Interestingly, although the tune is much the same in this version as in the later version, there are differences, including dips down low in 1973 in spots where they aren't in 1958, e.g., at the beginning. Also, lyrically, in 1973 she ends with "And cruel fate put an end to his growing."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wswYFNon5hc

Oh father, dear father, pray what is this you've done?
You have wed me to a college boy, a boy is far too young
For he is only 16 years and I am 21
He's my bonny bonny boy and he's growing

As we were going through college when some boys were playing ball
When there I saw my own true love, the fairest of them all
When there I saw my own true love, the fairest of them all
He's my bonny bonny boy and he's growing

For at the age of 16 years he was a married man
And at the age of 17 the father of a son
But at the age of 21 he did become a man
But the green grass o'er his grave it was growing

I will buy my love some flannel, I will make my love's shroud
With every stitch I put in it, the tears will fall down
With every stitch I put in it, the tears will fall down
And that put an end to his growing

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:49 PM

Hi,

These are the traditional UK version I have- if anyone knows a version I'm missing please post title and if you have it the text:

British & other versions 5. A-Growing

    My Love is Long A-Growing: (Edin) c.1776 Herd
    Lady Mary Ann- Robert Burns (Edin) 1787 Johnson
    Craigston's Growing- (Aber) pre1818 Rev. Scott
    My Bonnie Laddie's Lang o' Growing- (Pais) c.1819
    The Young Laird of Craigstoun- Nicol (Strich) 1822
    Lament of a Young Damsel- Macqueen (Ayr) c.1825
    My Bonny Laddie's Young- Broadside (Scot) c.1825
    My Love A-Growing: Bell Robertson (Pits) c.1856
    Young Craigston- (Buchan) pre1881 Christie
    Trees They Are So High- Parsons (Lew) 1888 B-G.
    Trees They Are So- Parsons/Baker (Lew) 1889 B-G.
    My Bonny Boy- Mary O'Bryan (Cahir) 1890 B.Gould
    All the Trees- Mrs.Mason (Devon) 1890 B.Gould
    Growing- William Aggett (Chag) 1890 B.Gould
    Trees They Are So High- Hannaford (Wid) 1890 B-G.
    My Bonny Lad Is Young- Thompson (York) 1893 Kidson
    The Trees are Getting High- George Ede (Sur) 1896
    Trees They Do Grow High- Harry Richards (Som) 1904
    He's Growing- Mrs. Glover (Som) 1904 Sharp B
    Trees They Do Grow High- Gouldthorpe (Linc) 1905
    My Bonny Lad Is Young- Amos Ash (Som) 1905
    He's Growing- Mr. Booker (Sus) 1905 V. Williams
    But A-Growing: woman (Devon) 1905 Bertha Bidder
    The Bonny Lad- Lucy White (Som) 1905 Sharp C
    Trees They Do Grow High- Beverley (Linc) 1905
    Still Growing- Wilson Champ (Som) 1905 Sharp D
    Still Growing- Harriet Young (Som) 1905 Sharp E
    Trees They are so High- William Bartlett(Dor) 1905
    All the Trees- Henry Stansbridge (Hamp) 1906
    Trees They Grows High- James Brown (Hamp) 1906
    Green Grows the Grass- Joseph Taunton (Dor) 1906
    Trees They do Grow High- Mrs. Studeley (Dor) 1906
    The Trees They Are Withered- Mrs. Hann (Dor) 1906
    At the Age of Fourteen- Marina Russell (Dor) 1907
    Trees They Do Grow- Ginger Clayton (Cam) 1907
    Trees They Do Grow High- William Smith (Hre) 1907
    Trees They Do Grow High- David Penfold (Sus) 1907
    Young But Growing- James Cheyne (Aber) c.1908
    Still Growing- Jack Barnard (Som) 1908 Sharp F
    Still Growing- Alfred Emery (Som) 1908 Sharp G
    The Trees They Do Grow- Mrs. Whiting (Mon) 1908
    My Bonnie Laddie's Young- Mrs. Bowker (Lanc) 1909
    My Bonnie Laddie's Young- Whitehead (Lanc) 1909
    Trees They Did Grow High- Wm Ellison (Wilt) 1909
    Trees They Do Grow- Stephen Spooner (Sus) 1911
    My Bonny Lad Is Young- Mrs. Joiner (Herts) 1914
    Still Growing- Kathleen Williams(Glos)1921 Sharp H
    My Father's Castle Wall- Nelson Ridley (Kent) 1926
    Trees They Do Grow High- Bob Copper (Sus) c.1952
    The Trees are Growing Tall- Pat Kelly (Down) 1953
    Young but Growing- Margaret McGarvey (Ferm) 1954
    The Bonny Boy- Seán 'ac Dhonncha (Carna) 1955
    Long a-Growing: May Bradley (Shrop) c.1959 Hamer
    Young But Growing- Caroline Hughes (Dor) c.1962
    My Bonny Boy Is Young- Joe Heaney (Carna) 1964
    Lang A-Growing: Liam Clancy (Tip) 1965 REC
    The Bonny Boy- Fred Jordan (Shrop) 1966 Yates
    Young Man A-Growing- George Dunn (Birm) 1972
    The College Boy- Lizzie Higgins (Scot)1973 Kennedy
    Long A-Growing- Mary Ann Haynes (Sus) 1974 Yates
    Trees They Do Grow High- Walter Pardon (Nor) 1974
    Trees They Grew High- Pat MacNamara (Clare) 1975
    Tale of the Little Boy- Nelson Penfold (Dev) 1974
    Long a-Growing: Harry Brazil (Glou) 1977 Davies
    The Bonny Boy- Tom Lenihan (Clare) 1987 REC
    The Bonny Boy- Maggie McGee (Don) 1992 McBride
    Trees They Grew High- Vincie Boyle (Clare) 2012

I've got most of the headnotes down here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

Need to proof it still,

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:11 PM

British Museum

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 02:23 PM

Hi,

In the text above it's "bonny" in the title and throughout. Baring- Gould copied it from the British Library around 1890 and it appears twice in his notebooks. Aside from the first stanza (which Baring-Gould didn't write- he just gave a line which was wrong) there are a few minor changes but not many.

There is a red imprint stamped on the first line which is hard to read and may not be legible on this copy or the original.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 02:13 PM

Hi,

I want to thank Steve Gardham and Steve Roud for sending a copy of the Scottish broadside dated 1820s from the British Library. Here's a copy of the text- an image of the broadside is on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

Richie

    "My Bonnie Laddie's Young" -Scottish Broadside, c. 1820s; ref. number 1871 f13 60a- British Library

    1. The trees they are high and the leaves are green
    The days they are awa that you and I have seen
    The cauld winter nights I maun lie my lane,
    My bonnie laddie's young but he is growing.

    2. Father, O father you have done me much wrong,
    For you have married me to a lad that is young,
    For he's scarce twelve and I am but thirteen
    My bonny laddie's young but he's a growing.

    3. O daughter, O daughter I have done you no wrong,
    For I have married you to a rich lord's son,
    And if you will wait, his bride you will be,
    Your bonny laddie is young he is growing.

    4. She sewed to him a shirt of Hollands fine,
    And aye as she sew'd the tears they ran down,
    And ay' as she sewed the tears they ran down,
    My bonny laddie is lang lang a growing.

    5. Father, O father if you think it fit,
    Weel send him to this high college another year yet,
    And I'll cut of my yellow hair all above my brow,
    And I'll go to the high college with my laddie now.

    6. It happened on a day and a sun shiny[1] day,
    Here going to a green wood to sport and to play,
    And what they did there I never will declare,
    But she never complained on his growing.

    7. At the age of thirteen he was a married man,
    At the age of fourteen they had a young son,
    At the age of fifteen his grave was growing green,
    And that put and end to his growing.

1. original "shinny"

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:37 AM

The only 1871 f I have a list for is 1871 f 13 and that has all Scottish sheets and the datable ones are 1820-1830s. I've had a quick look through the list which has titles and first lines and can't see anything that looks like Bonny Boy. There are other 1871 f books such as f3 but I haven't got a list for that. Steve Roud has done more listing than I have and we usually exchange lists as we do them, but he has been moving house for the last few months and may not have any new info.

I'll use the first line and check the list thoroughly then I'll try the BL catalogue.

Woah, lad! Found it. I only had time to copy out the first stanza. It is 1871 f 13 60a if you want to send for it. The title is 'My Bonnie Laddie's Young'. SBG's first line is wrong.

Here it is as I copied it.
The trees they are high and the leaves are green
The days they are awa that you and I have seen
The cauld winter nights I maun lie my lane,
My bonnie laddie's young but he is growing.

There are as you have above 7 sts but how accurately SBG published them I don't currently know.

On the version itself I have a few comments. Firstly our old friend Peter Buchan was printing in Aberdeen around that time and he, like SBG, was quite fond of mixing and matching. That stanza 6 comes from at least 2 different ballads. For the first line see Christie Vol 2, p230, or Ord p179. There are 5 versions in Greig Duncan. The line given here occurs at the start of a version in Journal of the EFDSS Vol 4 No5. 1944 titled 'It happened on a day' sung by James Grant. The song does have some stanzas in common with Bonny Boy but the tune I have heard is different. The 3rd line I have a vague memory of from some other ballad. Does this st occur in any other versions?

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 12:13 AM

Hi Steve,

Still out of town, I've been working on the Baring-Gould versions, lots of re-writing :)

Baring-Gould studied versions in the British Library, he says in his MS it's from "a volume of Scottish broadsides in British Library 1871f. dated 1750-1780" and was "printed in Aberdeen probably." I was wondering if you could give me info about this one. The date appears in Songs and Ballads of the West, 1892 edition as 1750-1840 quite a gap!

Here's most of the text:

1. The trees they are so high and the leaves they are so green,
The day [etc]

2. Father, O father you have done me much wrong,
For you have married me to a lad
My bonny laddie's young but is growing

3. O daughter, O daughter I have done you no wrong,
For I have married you to a rich lord's son,
And if you will wait, his bride you will be,
My bonny laddie's young but is growing

4. She sewed him a shirt of Holland fine,
And aye as she sewed the tears they ran down,
And aye as she sewed the tears they ran down,
My bonny laddie's young but he's growing.

5. Father, O father if you think's fit,
We'll send him to this high college another year yet,
And I'll cut of my yellow hair all above my brow,
And I'll go to the high college with my laddie now.

6. It happened on a day and a sun shiny day,
Here going to a green wood to sport and to play,
And what they did there I never will declare,
But she never complained on his growing.

7. At the age of thirteen he was a married man,
At the age of fourteen he had a young son,
At the age of fifteen his grave was growing green,
And that put and end to his growing.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 10:39 PM

From: The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, Volume 6 by Patrick N. Shuldham-Shaw, Emily B. Lyle; Aberdeen University Press, 1995.

E. My Love A-Growing- recited by Bell Robertson to Gavin Grieg about 1907 in New Pitsligo, Scotland. Probably learned from her mother Jean Gall of Strichen circa 1856.

Oh father, oh father you've done me great wrong
You've wedded me to a child-young bairn
Who lies all night upon my arm
And my bonnie love's lang a-growing.
CHORUS: And growing, growing said the bonnie may
And my bonny love's lang a-growing.

Oh daughter, oh daughter, I've done you no wrong
I've wedded you to an heir o' lan'
And by him ye have mony bullion ban'
And your bonnie love's daily growing.
CHORUS:

But ae nicht afore that it grew dark
They walked doon by her father's park
And he proved the pleasure o' her heart[1]
And she never thocht lang for growing.
CHORUS:

At seven years auld he wis a mairriet man
At eleven years auld he had a young son
At thirteen year his grave was green
And upset your Craigston's growing[2].
CHORUS:

1. an edited line since sark clearly rhymes- the meaning is the same. Nicols, circa 1822: "Then he lifted up her fine Holland sark,"
2. originally spelled Cragston

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 10:24 PM

Hi Steve,

Thanks for sending the Greig, I'll post the Bell Robertson. Her mother, Jean Gall, was from Strichen and maybe just a few years after James Nicol-- she was probably born circa 1820 and she may have got the ballad from her mother, Isobel Stephen, which would take it back further.

It's the only version that compares to Nicols and she edited the Holland sark line - probably herself ;)

The history is fascinating. Elizabeth Innes father, Sir Robert was a very powerful and influential man, crowned first Baronet in 1625 (of Nova Scotia and he was awarded 16,000 acres of land). he was also Privy Coucillor of Scotland for life- whatever that is :) So naturally he would have little problem persuading Alexander Brodie to marry his daughter- plus she was prob a hot babe with a Holland sark- no wonder he was growing.

Her mother, Grizel Stewart, was the daughter of the Bonny Earl of Moray and the granddaughter of the King so she had a ballad written about her daughter and also her father- who just happened to be murdered by that bad dude Huntley.

Her parents- to put it mildly- where connected out the wazzo- so what's a poor boy like Alex to do?

No wonder her first hubby John had a nervous breakdown- not only was his father a nut job who grandad of Cromartie wouldn't have as heir, but his dad made him promise to take care of his mom and pay all their debt!!! Woah

He only lasted 3 years struggling to take care of little miss it before he kicked the bucket.

That royalty for ya,

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

I think I'd have to set this out as a diagram to follow it properly. Phew! And of course families like this and local historians would have kept the story alive for several centuries until a ballad maker came along looking for material. Whoever wrote it it is a beautiful song. I could easily imagine the tune to have been a pipe tune originally.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 11:04 AM

Hi,

Here are some historic events and dates from which I think the ballad was made (see also on my site):

1) John Urquhart of Cragiston (b. 1611) married Elizabeth Innes (b. 1613- ref. Brad Verity) in 1632.

2) They had issue in 1633 one child, Sir John Urquhart d. 1678 who was the heir of Craigston (also Craigstoun).

3) On Nov. 30, 1634 John died leaving a son[17].

4) In 1632 Alexander Brodie returned from King's College[18] in England because of the death of his father. After the funeral he returned to King's College where he matriculated during the years 1632, 1633 and possibly 1634. I assume he came home when classes were not in session, and during this time or shortly after the death of John Urquhart, he met Elizabeth Innes. The meeting was likely through an introduction from her father or mother Grizel, the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Murray(Morey). At the request from her father but not without her permission, Elizabeth Innes married Alexander when he was underage--a boy, the age of 17. It's possible, as in the ballad, that she may have gone to his college to see him.

5) For whatever the reason, probably because of his young age, Brodie was "shortly and quietly" married to Robert Innes' "own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes" [see Spalding] who was about 4 years older than him. Sir Robert was married to Grizel Stewart, the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Murray (Morey) in 1611. They had eight children--Elizabeth was the eldest of five daughters and married first. She was born about 1613 and Brodie was born in 1617. Because Elizabeth married less than a year after her husband died, it brings into question the actual length of the relationship with Alexander Brodie and also the nature and circumstances surrounding John Urquhart's "consuming seikness."

6) After the death of her first husband (John Urquhart of Craigston) it was possible that her father, Sir Robert Innes, obliged her to marry young Alexander, although Spalding says it was "not without her consent, as was thought[19]." John Urquhart died of a "consuming seikness" at the Place of Innes on November 30, 1634. It is rumored that his death was caused by the debt associated with estate he inherited from his grandfather in 1631. His grandfather, John Urquhart-- the Tutor of Cromarty, bought the Estate of Craigston in Aberdeenshire which would normally go to his son, John Urquhart of Laithers. His son died a month later(also 1631) but was a poor manager and was not in line to inherit the estate anyway so it went to his grandson.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 10:02 AM

Steve,

I'll be putting the texts on my site today and have all of them but the 5 Greig/Duncan texts in Volume 6. Could you please email them to me- I'll post a few here and put them all on my site. TY

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM

Ty Steve,

I appreciate your help and advice always-- I've learned from you as I'm still a-learnin'

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:57 AM

To put a cott and waistcott an breiks upon me

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:43 AM

Hi,

Just wrote the ballad story you can read it on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

I'm adding it here since it's not long:

* * * *

The Ballad Story

The ballad story itself is rather simple which is perhaps why it was not included in Child's 305 English and Scottish Ballads (ten volumes from 1882-1899). Despite its simplicity the ballad explores one of the fundamental laws of life: we are either growing or dying. And when he was dead and in his grave--that put an end to his growing. When he was gone, the trees were still high, and the leaves were still green, and life goes on like a bubblin' stream and his love wishes he was -- still a-growin'.

O the trees thay are hie and the leaves thay ar green
The days are awa that I hae aften seen
The cauld winter nichts that I maun lye my lane
And my bonnie laddie's far far fae me.

Above is last stanza of a Scot version from Elizabeth Macqueen, c. 1825--Andrew Crawfurd's collection of ballads and songs. It's easy to understand the deep loss and sadness she feels all alone on a cold winter's night without her "bonnie laddie." She fell in love with the bonnie boy that she once rejected saying to her father who arranged the marriage that she would rather have an old man with a staff than a young boy[22]:

"Father," she said, "You've done me much wrang,
You've wedded to a young, young man,
I'd have wedded ane wid staff in his han,
'Afore I had wedded a boy." [from The Glenbuchat Ballads, c. 1818]

Her father explains that his young boy is heir to his father estate and that someday he will be a man of wealth and power but he's still a-growing:

O dochter deir dochter I'v dune ye nae wrang
I'v marryit you to an Earl's only son
An whan his father dees he will be air o aw
And your bonnie lad daily growan. [also Elizabeth Macqueen, c. 1825]

The boy is in college and she suggests that he be sent back for another year so he can continue a-growing. She wants him to wear a ribbon to let the other girls know he's married:

O faither deir faither gin ye wad think it fit
To send him to the college anither yeir yit
I'd tye a grein ribban aw around his hat
To let the girls ken he is marryit [also Elizabeth Macqueen, c. 1825]

She decides to dress up in a disguise, because he's so young and their marriage is secret, to go see him at college[23]:

"I'll cut my yellow hair away by the root,
And I will clothe myself all in a boy's suit,
And to the college high, I will go afoot,
When my pretty lad so young still is growing." [from William Aggett, Chagford, around 1900]

At the college she watches him playing ball, and he's the fairest flower of all, and he's still a-growing. He can't tell anyone he's married at such a young age so he calls her his sister:

Then all the colligeners war playing at the ba',
But young Craigston was the flower of them a',
He said—" play on, my school fellows a';"
For I see my sister coming. [from James Nicol of Strichen, before 1822]

She made his Holland shirts with great devotion:

She's made him shirts o' the Holland sae fine,
And wi' her ain hands she sewed the same;
And aye the tears came trickling down.
Saying, my bonnie laddie's lang o' growing. [Motherwell, c, 1819]

He was married at thirteen, the next year had a son, then suddenly he died and stopped a-growing:

But whan he was thirtene he was a marryit man
Whan he was fourtene he fatherit his auld son
Whan he was fifteen his grave was growan green
And that put an end to his growing.

But the trees are still high and the leaves are still green, like the grass that grows o'er his grave has been. And she lies cold and alone on a winter's night--far, far from him:

O the trees thay are hie and the leaves thay ar green
The days are awa that I hae aften seen
The cauld winter nichts that I maun lye my lane
And my bonnie laddie's far far fae me.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:53 PM

Ty Steve,

need 2nd line of 3rd stanza and I'll have it:

3 Or father dear faither gin ye wad agree
To put [missing]

beautiful version,

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

But whan he was thirtene he was a marryit man
Whan he was fourtene he fatherit his auld son
Whan he was fifteen his grave was growan green
And that put an end to his growing

O the trees thay are hie and the leaves thay ar green
The days are awa that I hae aften seen
The cauld winter nichts that I maun lye my lane
And my bonnie laddie's far far fae me

From Elizabeth Macqueen. She married Robert Orr in 1828
She was the sister of Thomas MacQueen who was paid by Crawfurd to collect who was paid by Motherwell.

It's no 122 in Vol 2 of the Crawfurd Ballads

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 04:02 PM

BTW I'm doing a ballad study and started putting info on my site last night. Here's what I have:

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/5-a-growing-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx

I can't get Andrew Crawfurd's 1825 version online- this is what I have so far (Emily B. Lyle, 1996)

"The Lament of a Young Damsel for her Marriage to a Young Boy"

1 O father deir faither what's this ye'v dune
Ye'v marriet me to a man that's far owr young
For his aige it is twall and I am scarce fiftene
And my bonnie lad's lang a growing

2 O faither deir faither gin ye wad think it fit
To send him to the college anither yeir yit
I'd tye a grein ribban aw around his hat
To let the girls ken he is marryit

3 Or father dear faither gin ye wad agree
To put [missing]
I wad cut aff the yellow hair that grows on my brow
An I'll gae to the college wi him

4. O dochter deir dochter I'v dune ye nae wrang
I'v marryit you to an Earl's only son
An whan his father dees he will be air o aw
And your bonnie lad daily growan.

anyone?

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 03:55 PM

Steve,

Buchan said Child published 7 Nicol ballads but I'll take your word on it :)

Nicol's version was published by Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe with mostly minor changes in 1839 from another MS of the same ballad in his transcript. He edited out Nicol's famous line, "Then he lifted up her fine Holland sark," in the penultimate stanza. Also Sir Walter Scott had a copy of the ballad MS in his collection of Nicols ballads he called "North Country Ballads."

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 03:28 PM

The material in Child from Nicol amounts to more than 7 of his ballads as they were being passed around from one member of the gang to the other. Child held Nicol's contributions in great esteem almost as much as for Mrs Brown's ballads. Money was definitely changing hands as Webster was a ballad broker passing ballads back and forth between the editors.

There is an excellent article by William McCarthy of the University of the Ozarks in Folk Music Journal Vol 5 No 3, 1987. It is actually about Motherwell as field collector but gives some insight into how the ballads were brokered and edited. It is well known that by and large the editors of that period paid fieldworkers to go out and collect the ballads and in some cases even these paid people paid others to go out and collect for them.

BTW David Laing was another of these ballad brokers carrying versions around the country as his job took him to different places like Glenbuchat.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 11:11 AM

Correction: the date James Maidment received the ballad MS from David Webster is Nov. 9, 1822 (as per David Buchan who wrote a chapter on Nicol).

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 11:06 AM

Steve,

Spadling's history (used by Maidment) was written in 1792 many years after Urquhart's death in 1634 and the marriage of the "young boy" to his widow in 1635.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:58 AM

Hi,

I'm adding some info about "The Young Laird of Craigstoun," published 1824 (title Maidment) from A North Countrie Garland.

James Maidment received the ballad MS on Nov. 9, 1922 from David Webster. Also this ballad is found in a C.K. Sharpe transcript (small octavo of 22 pages) at Broughton House and in the Sir Walter Scott transcript entitled, North Country Ballads. The ballad is attributed by David Buchan to James Nicol of Strichen (d.1840), who worked as a cooper and bookseller in Aberdeenshire. Nicols was an informant for Peter Buchan and Child published seven of his ballads.

Th date would be pre1822. It is unknown when and from who Nicols acquired the ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 02:39 AM

Other factors that might add weight to the argument, many of these ballads were written quite a long time after the event from stories and memories which would lead to the odd inaccuracy with historical fact. Also they were often written by family retainers (in earlier times we would call them household minstrels) who wished to ingratiate themselves with their sponsors/protectors/employers. This continued with the likes of Scott and Buchan, writing favourable ballads about their sponsors' ancestors, similar to Shakespeare writing plays that showed the contemporary monarch/nobility or their ancestors in good light.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 11:16 PM

Remember, Alexander's father died and he was heir to his estate but being underage could not become heir until 1636. So marrying Alexander, despite his debt, was desired for a young widow with a one year old child.

You can read The Diary of Alexander Brodie of Brodie (online), there's almost no info about his early life. Here it is in his own words:

Alexander Brodie Of Brodie, the Author of this Diary, was born the 25th of July, 1617. "1 was sent," he says, "into England, in Anno 1628, being little more than ten years old, and returned in Anno 1632, in which my Father of precious memory deceased." Of his early history we have no other particulars, excepting that in the years 1632 and 1633, he was enrolled as a Student in King's College, Aberdeen, but did not take his degree of Master of Arts. On being of age, he was served heir of his father, 19th May, 1636, by dispensation of the Lords of Council; but on the 28th of October, the previous year, he had formed a matrimonial alliance with the relict of John Urquhart of Craigston, tutor of Cromarty, who died 30th March, 1634. This lady to whom he was most devotedly attached, was Elizabeth, danghter of Sir Robert Innes of Innes, Bart., by Lady Grizzel Stewart, danghter of James, second Earl of Murray. The young Laird of Brodie, when twenty-three years of age, had to bewail the loss of his wife, who died 12th of August, 1640, leaving one son and one danghter. [David Laing, 1863]

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 10:57 PM

Hi Steve,

When Ian's article (Stower) pointed out that the John Urquhart of Cragiston was older than his wife, Elizabeth Innes, the only juvenile husband was Alexander Brodie, her second husband who was 17 at the time of marriage in 1935.

Elizabeth Innes was the oldest child of the marriage Dec. 18, 1611 of Sir Robert Innees and Grizel Stuart (Stewart). I have a date of 1613 for her birth, there are also dates given of 1621 which makes no sense. The most telling reason is 1621 is 10 years after their marriage.

Regardless of the difficult genealogical dates, this is what I think happened:

1) John Urquhart of Cragiston (b. 1611) married Elizabeth Innes (b. 1613)

2) They had issue in 1633 one child, Sir John Urquhart d. 1678

3) On Nov. 30, 1634 John died leaving a son.

4) In 1635 Alexander Brodie who attended King's College and who had returned because of the death of his father, at the age of 17 married Elizabeth Innes.

5) For whatever reason, probably because of his young age, he was   "shortly and quietly" married "upon her own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes" [see Spalding]

6) After the death of her husband (John Urquhart) it was possible that her father Sir Robert Innes obliged her to marry young Alexander.

The balladeer would have these facts: Young Craigston (Alexander Brodie) was a young handsome boy, he went off to college (King's College). Her father wanted her to marry this young man who she had recently watched playing ball.   

Even tho it was John who died, leaving her with a one year old son-- a balladeer could easily be transfer those facts to Alexander -- also her husband.

7. In's fourteenth year he was a married man
In's fifteenth year he had a young son.
In's Sixteenth year his grave grew green
Alas! for Craigston's growing.

the ballad is only a few years off.

Alexander and Elizabeth had two children shortly after theynmarried- it's certain that she was the love of his life- she died when he was only 23 (in 1640) and he never wanted to remarry.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:38 PM

It's perfectly fine here, Richie.
Some excellent research as usual.
I would ask for a summary and your opinions when you have finished.
Personally I see no reason to dispute the connection with the historic facts.

The only caution I would give is that a lot of ballad writing and rewriting went on in the 18th and early 19th century in Scotland and some of the editors you have mentioned are the prime suspects. There were ballad brokers going around selling versions to the collectors and they were rewriting and editing them and passing them on to their friends. Even Motherwell was involved in this before he saw the light and wrote his memorable introduction.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:18 PM

Hi,

Alexander Brodie was admitted to King's College in 1631.[Anderson Alumni p. 11]. He would have been 14 at the time.

5 O father if ye think it fit
We'll send him a year to the College yet
We'll tie a green ribbon around his hat
To let them ken that he's married
Four & Twenty cambric braids she had plait
An' sent to College wi him.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this information. I might start another thread.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 11:38 AM

This is Motherwell's text c. 1819 but said to be an old version. Stenhouse also corroborates the 1787 date for Burns recreation based on a lady he heard singing "Craigton's [sic] growing." This was reprint by Ord (Bothy Songs) without attribution.

MY BONNIE LADDIE'S LANG O' GROWING

The trees they are ivied, the leaves they are green.
The days are a' awa that I hae seen,
On the cauld winter nights I ha'e to lie my lane,
For my bonnie laddie's lang o' growing.

O father dear, you have done me great wrong,
You have wedded me to a boy that's too young,
He is scarce twelve, and I'm but thirteen,
And my bonnie laddie's lang o' growing.

O daughter dear, I have done you no wrong,
I have wedded you to a noble lord's son.
He'll be the lord, and ye'll wait on,
And your bonnie laddie's daily growing.

O father dear, if you think it fit,
We'll send him to the college a year or twa yet;
We'll tie a green ribbon round about his bar,
And that will be a token that he's married.

And O father dear, if this pleaseth you,
I will cut my hair ahoon my brow:
Coat, vest, and breeches I will put on.
And I to the college will go wi' him.

She's made him shirts o' the Holland sae fine,
And wi' her ain hands she sewed the same;
And aye the tears came trickling down.
Saying, my bonnie laddie's lang o' growing.

In his twelfth year he was a married man,
And in his thirteenth he had his auld son,
And in his fourteenth his grave it was green,
Sae that put an end to his growing.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 01:17 AM

This quote might also explain- sending him off to College- which is similar to what happened when he was sent to school in England:

History of Nairnshire
By George Bain, 1893

Alexander, the young Laird of Brodie, Lethen's nephew, who became Lord Brodie, had been sent into England when eleven years old for his education, and returned in 1632 on his father's death, and by special dispensation from the Lords of Council was declared of age (he was but nineteen years), and served heir to the estates in 1636. While yet a minor, he married Elizabeth Innes, widow of John Urquhart of Craigston, Tutor of Cromarty, and daughter of Sir Robert Innes of Innes, by Lady Grizzel Stuart, daughter of James, the Bonnie Earl of Moray.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 12:59 AM

Hi,

After a brief study I believe "this young boy" to be Alexander Brodie (Lord Brodie) who at the age of 17 married on 28th October, 1635, Elizabeth Innes, widow of John Urquhart, of Craigston, tutor of Cromarty, who d. 30th November, 1634. Alexander also had a debt of 40,000 pounds (see above). His wife was two or three years older.

John Urquhart and Elizabeth Innes had a son, Sir John Urquhart b. 1633, d. 1678, who she would have raised after her husband's death (he died when his son was one).

The ballad and John Spalding have mixed the facts.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 11:27 PM

Here's the excerpt from Spalding (1792) and then the whole quote-- where he's called "this young boy":

The laird of Innes (whose sister was married to this John Urquhart of Leathers) and not without her consent, as was thought, gets the guiding of this young boy, and without advice of friends, shortly and quietly married him upon her own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes.

The history of the troubles and memorable transactions in Scotland, by John Spalding, 1792

Ye heard before of the death of John Urquhart of Craigstoun, and how his eldest son John Urquhart of Leathers shortly followed; his son again departs this life upon the last of November instant. Thus in three years space the goodsire, son, and oy, died. It is said this young man's father willed him to be good to Mary Innes his spouse, and to pay all his debts, because he was young and had a good estate, whereunto his goodsire had provided him; the young boy mourning past his promise so to do, then he desires the laird of Cromartie being present to be no worse tutor to his son than his father had been to him, and to help to fee his debts paid, being then above 40,000 pounds, for the whilk several gentlemen in the country were heavily engaged as cautioners. The laird of Innes (whose sister was married to this John Urquhart of Leathers) and not without her consent, as was thought, gets the guiding of this young boy, and without advice of friends, shortly and quietly married him upon her own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes. Now Leathers' creditors cry out for payment against the cautioners; the cautioners crave Craigstoun, and the laird of Innes his father in law (who had also the government of his estate) for their relief. The young man was well pleased to pay his father's debt, according to his promise, albeic he was neither heir nor executor to him. Yet his goodfather, seeing he could not be compelled by law to pay his father's debt, would in noways consent thereto; there followed great outcrying against him; friends met and trysted; at last it resolved in this, the creditors compelled the cautioners to pay them completely to the hazard of the sum of their estates, a'ld they got some relies, others little or none, which made the distressed gentlemen to pray many maledictions, which touched the young man's conscience, albeit he could not mend it. And so through melancholy, as was thought, he contracts a consuming sickness, whereof he died, leaving a son behind him called John, in the keeping of his mother, and left the laird of Innes and her to be his tutors, without advice of his own kindred, which is remarkable, considering the great care and worldly conquest of his goodsire to make up an estate to fall in the government of strangers. This youth deceased in the place of Innes, and was buried beside his father in his goodsire's isle in Kinedwart.

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 10:56 PM

Hi,

According to Cunningham: "An old ballad, called "Craigton's growing," was chanted to him[Burns] in one of his Highland excursions. . ."

Since the ballad was not know by that name at that time- this comment seems authentic.

Even though Burns got the first two stanzas from Herd's MS, stanzas 5 and 6 correspond to "Craigston's Growing":

"Craigston's Growing" before 1818; from The Glenbuchat Ballads; edited by David Buchan, James Moreira

1. The trees they are high and the leaves they are green
The days are awa that I hae seen
But better days I thought wou'd come again
An' my bonny, bonny boy was growin

2. I've been climbing a tree that's too high for me.
I've been seeking fruit thats nae growin.
I've been seeking hot water beneath the cold ice
An' against the stream I've been rowin.

3. Father she said, you've done me much wrang
You've wedded to a young, young man
I'd have wedded ane wid staff in his han
'Afore I had wedded a Boy.

4. O Daughter I did you no wrong
For the wedding you to o'er young a man
You've your tocher in your ain han'
An' your bonny love daily growin

5 O father if ye think it fit
We'll send him a year to the College yet
We'll tie a green ribbon around his hat
To let them ken that he's married
Four & Twenty cambric braids she had plait
An' sent to College wi him.

6. She lookit o'er her father's castle wa'
Saw four & Twenty bonny boys playin at the ba'
But her ain love was foremost amang them a'
Young Craigston's daily growin

7. In's fourteenth year he was a married man
In's fifteenth year he had a young son.
In's Sixteenth year his grave grew green
Alas! for Craigston's growin

8. The Trees are high & the leaves are green
The days are awa that I hae seen
An' anither may be welcome where I hae happy been
Tak up young Craigston's growin

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 09:25 PM

Also isn't "The Young Laird of Craigstoun" a rewrite of "Craigston's Growing" since Scott's MS is thus found in The Glenbuchat Ballads?

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Richie
Date: 30 Aug 16 - 09:13 PM

Hi,

I started looking at this ballad. The Burns date I have 1787 not 1792 (as per Motherwell). Obviously the two stanzas from Herd are used literally by Burns, who wrote the rest-- stanzas which certainly are not traditional to this ballad.

Why did Burns attribute the song to a lady in Burns tour of N. Scotland? Which is why it has been suggested that Burn's Lady Mary Ann was collected.

I am puzzled about how Motherwell's text that was traditionally preserved in the west of Scotland and apparently pre-dates the MS of Robert Scott, of Glenbucket (The Young Laird of Craigstoun, which one source has as 1823) is not included in the article.

Motherwell gives a stanza and it's later published in full as "the old ballad." It begins:

The trees they are ivied, the leaves they are green, &c

Just wondering?

Richie

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:14 PM

Toadfrog,
To attempt an answer to your second question I presume you mean by 'Popular Ballad' a Child Ballad. Only guessing but I doubt if FJC was aware of it. Had he been he might well have included it: Regardless of its possible ancestry it has many of the hallmarks of a popular ballad, and IMHO many of the ballads he did include have very doubtful ancestry as he often commented on himself. Many of the higher numbered ballads can't be traced back any earlier than 1800.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Stower
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

Yes, toadfrog, that has often been claimed but, as the article shows in some detail, it cannot be true.

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 10:04 PM

1. The other threads which mention this song say the song comes from an actual event: the bonny boy (Craigston) died in 1634, and that the marriage was not only arranged but was a blatant theft of the boy's inheritance by the girl's father.
@displaysong.cfm?SongID=10359

2. I have often wondered why this song was never included as a Popular Ballad. Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 16 - 07:20 AM

I never tire of saying that I believe it very unwise to attempt to date such songs as this only as far back as our knowledge of folk songs, which basically is to the beginning of the twentieth century - anything we know, or think we know predating that is far to circumstantial to even base a guess on, let alone made definitive statements and claims. The practice of arranged marriage almost certainly pre - dates reliable recorded history and continued uninterrupted almost to the present day in these islands - it is likely that it still occurs in some communities - we have certainly witnessed and recorded evidence of it.
Ireland's first falling into the hands of a foreign power in 1169 was consummated by an arranged marriage.
Versions of songs are pretty much like a photographs of running horses - we have no idea where their journeys began nor what point of they had reached when the shot was taken.
The song presents no information, not even a name; the ages are totally immaterial.
Print is no indication, particularly at a time when literacy meant little for the overwhelming majority of the population, particularly among those from the class where these songs proliferated.
Rather than speculating on not very coincidental 'coincidences', it is far safer to assume that songs like this are links in a very long chain from an unknown foundry - songmaking has been around far too long to assume otherwise.
As an old singer told us a couple of years ago "if a man farted in church, somebody made a song about it.
Sorry to bang on about this - waiting for some soundfiles to load down.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The trees they do grow high: medieval?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 25 Feb 16 - 04:52 AM

Just noticed on Ian's site a new article on "Sumer is Icumen In", worth reading (and maybe worth posting a summary here Ian).