BS: Britain and the EU

Subject: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Kampervan
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 02:43 AM

According to the extract from a Guardian article below, we in Britain are going to be asked to vote to either stay in, or leave, the EU on the basis of an agreement that has not been ratified by the European parliament.

So, if we voted to stay in, then the new agreement could be rejected by the EU parliament. At which point, I assume, it would be changed (watered down?) until it was ageeable to EU.

Doesn't that make a mockery of our referendum?

From the Guardian

But the likely broad arrangement is laced with uncertainties in the finer detail, which will be picked over in the weeks ahead. Cameron's insistence that the settlement terms must be immediately seen to be legally watertight and irreversible suffered a setback when the head of the European parliament said he could not guarantee that.

The parliament will have to approve secondary legislation on the most controversial aspects of the proposed deal – the restrictions on child benefit, the emergency brake to limit in-work benefits and the protections for EU members outside the eurozone. Cameron's rush to Brussels reflected worries that the chamber could be a loose cannon in the delicate renegotiation since changes in EU law to accommodate key UK demands on welfare curbs for EU immigrants will need to go through the parliament.

It would be highly unusual for the parliament to veto decisions taken by the EU's 28 heads of government. But the chamber's role almost certainly means that Cameron will only be able to put the welfare changes into effect much later than he hoped and well after Britons have actually voted in the referendum.

Cameron, who has said that any deal agreed with fellow EU leaders would be legally binding, sought assurances that the chamber would wave through the legal changes – a promise that the parliament's president, Martin Schulz, withheld. Schulz stressed that the parliament would not veto decisions taken by EU leaders. He described the talks with Cameron as constructive but he emphasised the centrality of parliamentary process.
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The British pressed for the parliament to issue a declaration this week stating that it would abide by the decisions taken by the summit. It will not do this because it has to wait for the European commission to table detailed legislative changes that it then scrutinises before it can reach a verdict. The commission proposals can only be tabled once the result of the UK referendum is known.

Once the commission's legal texts are on the table, the parliament would move quickly to expedite the legislative process, Schulz promised, but he added: "I can't give a guarantee for the future of a legislation. No government can go to a parliament and say 'here is our proposal, can you guarantee a result'. This is, in a democracy, not possible."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:25 AM

Most social conservatives view the EU in the same light as most "liberals" see the Church.

An unelected body imposing rules and laws upon them at will.

The difference of course, is that the Church's rules are rules of conscience......the EU rules are backed imprisonment or financial sanction.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:36 AM

Akenhateon - try to learn something about EU law before displaying more of your ignorance and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:39 AM

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/legislativeprocedure/default_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:47 AM

This seems to be a reaction to the president of the European Parliament making the somewhat uncontroversial statement that he cannot dictate to that parliament what its decisions on these matters will be, but that those decisions would instead me made by the democratically elected members of said parliament. Including those elected by the UK. Sort of like the way democracy should work, you should try it sometime Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:50 AM

It's a dangerous political game Cameron is playing. He is intelligent enough to know that it is absurd to think we can exist outside Europe, clever enough to play the numbers game with his party but assumes too much in terms of our influence with our partners.

He played the odds with Scotland and won. He went into the last general election and got a majority. My concern is that he is getting gung Ho and may think he can bury the little Englanders with a referendum. As we see with the Westlothian question, it will just become a neverendum.

I don't fear a referendum per se, but the levels of ignorance surrounding the debate are staggering. Of course we need to remain a strong partner in Europe. There is no alternative other than commissioning our inept military to regain the fucking colonies.

The op questions how the situation reflects democracy, I say it merely reflects politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:31 AM

Cameron wants out of the EU and always has. But he sees that this would result in the UK unravelling, both politically and economically. So he does not want this to be his legacy. Instead he wants to be portrayed as having been forced into an anti-EU position by beastly foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:38 AM

I didn't say that the EU was TOTALLY undemocratic Richard, I said most people see the process as undemocratic concerning the the laws and regulations which affect their countries.

Try reading and comprehension before mindless attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:41 AM

The EU may not be totally democratic in the way it works, but its a sight better than the UK, as evidenced by the president of its parliament refusing to predetermine what decisions the parliament might make.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:45 AM

Do you really think that the EU is democratic? It is a club run by several large nations in their own interests.
It is all very well promoting "democracy" when one is quite positive of what the result will be...... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:48 AM

Could be. Although of course that means you have to take a position that he lies as a matter of course. He is a pro EU politician, he is, as an EU leader however, at odds with how the beast has grown.

When someone acknowledges that borders would be harder to control, that many immigration policies would remain in order to trade as per Norway etc, that on our own we are too small for other trading blocks to risk existing EU agreements, that the treasury coffers rely on EU trade more than any other income stream, that our spending ministries rely on EU grants and subsidies, that the balance of money in to money out represents running The NHS for less than 24 hours....

He became Prime Minister. As much as I am appalled by his stewardship of the country, as much as I deplore some of the nasty incompetent ministers surrounding him, as much as his inflammatory comments over immigration and terrorism are sickening to my mind...

I think his comments on the advantages of The EU should be taken as read. I agree Dave, that he sees a way of keeping a consensus of suspicion amongst his xenophobic acolytes, but as I said above, it's politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:51 AM

The OP dangled the carrot - I'm surprised that anybody bit.

Either in or out the UK will not "leave" Europe, we will still trade with it, we are one of their best customers FFS. Akenaton is quite right in what he says, the European Parliament GUEST Dave is a gutless, pointless talking shop, the only occasion when it needed to act was when the entire EU Commission was shown to be corrupt, the EU Parliament flunked it and did nothing. EU Commissioners (who are appointed and not elected) rule the roost and then there is the Council of Ministers who can exercise a power of veto.

When and if the referendum on the UK's membership comes round I will vote for leaving it, prior to 1973 when the UK joined the Common Market as it then was, we traded both with Europe and the rest of the world quite happily - we can do so again. the EU due much to its idiotic fixation with dogma has shackled itself to the Euro and has been stagnant now for over a decade and shows no sign of improvement - The EU faces serious problems that it ideologically refuses to address - if the horse you are riding is heading for a jump you know it cannot take then your best course of action is to jump off.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:53 AM

Everyone who claims to promote democracy does so as a cover for promoting their own interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 05:05 AM

That ship has sailed Teribus, we have burned our bridges with the Commonwealth, prostituted ourselves to the United States, and been too slow to engage with China. The EU is our only hope. As for the EU being stagnant, given what has happened in the UK over the past 8 years at least, stagnation sounds rather attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 05:05 AM

"The levels of ignorance surrounding the debate are staggering." That's absolutely right. If we were to set a simple ten-question qualifying exam before letting people vote we'd be able to fit all the ballot papers in a small shoe box. Just a few simple questions about the single market, the structure of the European Parliament, regional subsidies, etc. But that isn't what people will be voting about. It will be based on the soundbites of a tawdry bunch of Eurosceptics, little Englanders and assorted racists, mostly telling lies about how much it's costing us and about immigrants living on benefits and stealing our jobs. I must say, I was impressed by the extent to which the run up to the Scottish referendum at least contained an attempt to educate the people on the core issues. All we're going to get this time is the siren voices of a tawdry bunch of get-us-out scumbags setting the agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 05:57 AM

To whom it may concern? the names have been changed to protect .....

" I didn't say that the UK was TOTALLY undemocratic , I said the Scottish people see the process as undemocratic concerning the the laws and regulations which affect their country.

Try reading and comprehension before mindless attack."

"O would some power the gift tie gie us to see ourselves as others see us"

Am I wrong to believe that every European Law or Directive is approved by the EU parliament before issue and every country's own parliament before it is incorporated into their own laws and directives.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 06:47 AM

He told his MPs to ignore. You can't tell either Parliament or the electorate what to do, you can merely count the votes and keep an eye out for the judicial reviews.

That's the problem with my "dissembling nonsense." It seems to piss all over your erudite err bullshit. We had one like you on a board once. I usually blew the silly sod out before breakfast. Keep climbing that tree, your arse is unfortunately more revealing as you clear each branch.

The "laws" you refer to are passed by elected MEPs on the basis of papers forwarded by commissioners for ratification and the latitude they have is agreed by the council of ministers and ultimately heads of states at treaty level. Or democracy by our elected representatives as it's known.

By the way, if we were to leave, then such laws would actually become the impositions you witter on about, although instead of a say in them, we'd be beholden to them and instead of fines, we'd risk trade tariffs.

If you've anything to say other than Daily Torygraph leader columns, it might enrich this debate, but I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 06:57 AM

Didn't mean to use the expression "tawdry bunch" twice in one post. Combination of my iPhone, the tiny box for typing in and this lurgy I seem to have collected. If we leave, we can either trade within the single market and abide by its rules, which we'll no longer have any say about, or we can go it alone, losing all the advantages of being members of the single market and still have no say about the rules, and having burned lots of bridges. I've yet to see a Eurosceptic patiently explain how this would be a massive advantage to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:01 AM

At the moment opinion on whether to leave the EU or not is pretty evenly divided.....most people are of the opinion that membership involves loss of sovereignty......some think it is worth the sacrifice.

Funnily enough most seem to be "liberals"???

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:04 AM

"You can't tell either Parliament or the electorate what to do, you can merely count the votes and keep an eye out for the judicial reviews."

And the whole basis of the complaint in the original post is that the president of the European parliament, unlike Cameron, understands this.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:06 AM

Once elected those in Parliament pay no heed whatsoever to those who elected them. Once elected and in power those elected MPs generally do the bidding of their Party's whips who act not in the interest of the population, or of the country, but solely in the interests of the political party they serve. To try and convey anything different is dissembling nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:52 AM

The E.U. is little more than Capitalism sifting the deckchairs on a sinking ship - it was never really anything else.
Having said that, unless you are considering changing ships, you may as well stick with it for the time being.
Ireland did extremely well out of it in all but fishing - new infrastructure, money for developing industry, support for culture, free movement for work-seekers in countries not far from home, an opening-up of a somewhat parochial... all beneficial till the bankers blew it and shot The Celtic Tiger.
Britain is no longer capable of going it alone - rising unemployment, a ever accelerating widening of the gap between rich and poor (worldwide) no longer a manufacturing base and prone to ever recurring financial crises cause largely by viciously avaricious bankers and investors
Cameron is fully aware of this, as was Thatcher - neither were up to the job (though Thatcher would have been happy to revert to extremism to keep us in line, as she admitted herself).
The downside of the E.U. was illustrated in its recent role in Greek politics, which was probably one of the reasons the idea of a Common Market was mooted in the first place - to make sure that member states didn't stray too far off the path.
I really have no time for the petty little Briainism on display in these arguments - membership has opened tremendous doors for Irish youngsters abroad, and the immigrants coming in have added to the communities and the culture greatly - long live internationalism!
If I were living in the U.K. I would probably vote to stay in - if it comes up here in Ireland I most certainly will - not because I support the concept but because it's the best of a bad bunch.
Sorry for those 'home thoughts from abroad' as I suspect I'm about to be told by the old usuals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:53 AM

"Once elected those in Parliament pay no heed whatsoever to those who elected them........"
Wish I'd said that - funny old world Terri!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:26 AM

We have got damn all sovereignty anyway, the only people who seem concerned about this are those in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:32 AM

Teribus.....18 Feb 7:06 am.......Excellent point, truest post on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:43 AM

Excuse me whilst I vomit.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:46 AM

Well I'm concerned about sovereignty, as should every thinking person, that's why i'll be voting to leave.....we must be in control of our borders and we must start training our own people.
Unrestricted immigration is bad for us and bad for the places where the immigrants hail from. Get our young folks off the dole into proper vocational work, cut out the huge waste in public services, stop saying that education solves every problem, it doesn't....even the current Musket seems to understand that.

Of course there will be sacrifices to be made, fewer foreign holidays for MrT :0) and more taxation for absentee landlords, but hey ho isn't life a bitch?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 09:05 AM

Who is this "we" akenaton? It certainly does not include me at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 09:24 AM

It doesn't include the vast majority of people. Heaven forbid that the whole electorate were bitter twisted creatures who reckon their whole sorry life is someone else's fault.

Perhaps Terribulus should read up on what Parliamentary democracy is, as he is clearly confused. You vote for a candidate who wants your vote based largely on party manifesto. You then put your trust in that person to make decisions and if after their period of office you don't agree with their voting record or decisions you are free to vote next time for someone else.

Politicians are not conduits for referendae, they are people put forward to make decisions. Not a perfect system but policy by referendum would be anarchy and counter productive so it's about as good as society based on equality can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 10:49 AM

Ake said, "we must be in control of our borders and we must start training our own people."

That is the "we."

Do you, Musket and Dave, not think the border needs control or people trained?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 10:59 AM

"we must start training our own people."
Doesn't that need jobs to do that?
Jim Careroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 11:06 AM

Keith,

Which border though? That of the EU? That of the UK? England (reinforce Hadrian's wall)? My county, my town, my village? Barbed wire fences around the M25? Personally I would welcome a refugee from Syria before I did a politician from Westminster or a banker from the City of London. So who is this we? People identify with different groups, and often nationality doesn't come into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 11:39 AM

Dave, it is clear Ake was referring to UK borders.
Do you, Musket and Dave, not think the border needs control or people trained?

Jim, there are jobs and although it is cheaper to poach people trained at the expense of poorer countries, most would agree that people already here should be trained as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Kampervan
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 11:48 AM

The point that I was trying to make in the opening post was that the British public are being asked to make a decision based on a re-negotiation which will not have been agreed by the EU parliament.

Rather than waiting until the changes have been agreed/amended before we vote so that we know what we are accepting or rejecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:16 PM

Keith, personally I would rather that the border control was at the external borders of the EU, and free movement within.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:21 PM

Kampervan there will be no renegotiation - only talk and promises of changes and reforms - those wishing the farce that is the EU to continue will happily go alone with the EU merely kick the can down the road. Britain in the EU is and always will be outnumbered 27:1. Of course they don't want us to leave we buy more from them than they do from us, we are also after Germany the second biggest net-contributor to the EU's coffers.

While the economies of Europe have stalled and faltered Britain's trade with the rest of the world has grown. Europe's financial woes will continue as long as they are driven by idiotic political dogma which allows for breaches of fundamental principles as occasion demands by those and such as those. The EU is and always has been from the start a cosy little club that looks after the best interests of France and Germany.

I remember back when Tony Blair toddled off to Brussels to give away part of the rebate that was won by Maggie Thatcher. The deal was that we receive a reduced rebate and the EU would reduce CAP payments to member states with the ultimate goal of ending all CAP payments completely sometime in the future. The actuality however was that yes, we did have our rebate cut with damn near immediate effect, but the EU did S.F.A. about CAP - that is the way the EU works with us having "influence" by being inside it.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:38 PM

jim, I am generaly in agreement with you.apart from this quote
"membership has opened tremendous doors for Irish youngsters abroad".
but not if they have to do it because they do not wish to, but are forced to emigrate, because ireland has nothing to offer unless you are a son of a farmer.Jim i hope you are not going to vote for the blueshirts fine gael twits

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:40 PM

Nonsense Teribus, Britain is on the majority side on most issues within the EU. Its only in a minority of one when "our" leader throws a hissy fit. Even on the issues which Cameron is banging on about now, Britain is not outnumbered 27 to 1, there is a fair bit of support. Quite often though the interests of the UK government and those of its people are not the same, remember it was Cameron who wanted to "put rocket boosters under TTIP". Other EU governments are being more sensible and applying a brake. On foreign policy, the EU's foreign policy over the past few years has been far from perfect, but the real disasters such as Ukraine have been driven by the UK (or rather by its leaders).

Where Britain, or more specifically Cameron, may be outnumbered 27:1 is in asking for special privileges for the City of London. But these special privileges are not in our interests either.

Have you actually been to Germany recently? I have, and your description of an economy stalling and faltering does not hold water. Infrastructure is being developed, whereas that in the UK is decaying. The streets are clean. The markets are full and busy. Shops are full of domestic produce. People are by and large fed and housed, even the refugees whom they have been generous enough to accept. They will accept these refugees because they can, and they are a generous people. But we will not, is it our generosity or our capability which is at fault? We have a lot to learn from Germany, France and many other European countries. The other way round? Not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:45 PM

"Jim, there are jobs and although it is cheaper to poach people trained at the expense of poorer countries,"
The number of jobs in Britain have reduced radically, with no recompense offered to those who find themselves unemployed
Regulating what is paid is down to the employers and the Government -- using the mobility of labour as an excuse for membership should not be an option and it wouldn't be if a living wage were established rather that the poorly regulated 'minimum wage' - that would set a level playing field for workers and its long overdue.
Going by what has happened to Irish youth, some young, unattached people actually welcome the chance to travel and it would certainly help exorcise some of the awful 'little Englander' attitudes that pollute the country - "fortress Britain" is alive and kicking if this appalling discussion is anything to go by.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:56 PM

Actually the number of jobs in Britain hasn't reduced. There are as many people in work now as there ever has been and probably more. Unemployment itself is around 5% which is horrendous but it has been a lot worse in the past. Much of the problem is the type of contracts people are offered now more than finding an actual job.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 01:34 PM

Allan is right, many are on zero-hours, part-time and minimum wage contracts. Many have these horrific "self-employed" jobs. They are not self employed, they work for some local agency. There is a cleaning company near me which advertises for "self-employed" workers at the minimum wage, maybe marginally above, then advertises the services of cleaners at £11 per hour. Next time they do it I think I will report them to HMRC, I cannot believe that this is legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 02:13 PM

Be careful when agreeing with Akenaton on anything if I were you Keith.

No. I very much doubt any normal rational person has what he has in mind when he talks of his ideal solutions. As we see from him and Terribulus agreeing that protecting minorities is wrong on the other thread, he is more of the ultimate solution in his disdain for anyone different to him. (Which certainly means me, the vast majority of balanced intelligent people and therefore I assume means you too?)

As Saruman said, "you wouldn't like Wormtongue."

I'm a European citizen, just like you, just like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 02:17 PM

Well one thing is clear from that. None of our resident fash have any idea what a democracy is or how the EU legislative process (which I even gave an authoritative link to) works. They simply think that Wogs begin at Calais.

What does need reform is the freedom of movement of capital. That way the plutocrats cannot run off with their money. But even there the EU is supporting proper tax disclosure and limiting tax avoidance - while Scum-moron defends the tax dodgers.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 02:19 PM

Yes, Allan is right, but these "zero hours contracts" have been a by product of EU policy.....if our own people were properly trained, given a decent wage, and immigration severely curtailed, "zero hours" would have to be abandoned.......These contracts are only there because there is nothing else and they help to falsify the unemployment figures.
Teribus is right, politicians look after their Party and themselves and our populace have become so weak and dispirited by the entitlement culture that they no longer have any fight left.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:19 PM

Zero hours contracts are used more in the UK than in any other UK country except perhaps Austria. There isn't any EU regulation against them, but then there isn't any UK regulation against them either. They are a consequence of lax regulation at both levels, but to blame the EU for their rise in the UK is perverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:21 PM

"Actually the number of jobs in Britain hasn't reduced."
THanks for that Alan
I see that you are correct - unemployment rose steeply in 2008 and is now back down to what it was 8 years ago - my mistake. What has changed is our status as employees
I wanted to be a carpenter, but couldn't find an apprenticeship, so I became an electrician.
I was recognised as one all my working life, employed by companies and eventually self-employed.
If I were leaving school today, whatever job I managed to get, I would be "a worker" - I would be forced to take any job or I would not receive the unemployment pay from the taxes I paid all my working life - simply a way of manipulating the unemployment figures.
"if our own people were properly trained, given a decent wage,
There is no exiosting job I could possibly train for that would guarantee me work
"and immigration severely curtailed,"
The greatest con trick foisted on us is to blame somebody else for our woes - divide and rule
We plundered the world for many centuries - it gave us what stability and well being we have while confining the countries we ruled to what we needed rather that what might develop them as countries.
Now it's payback time - even if we hadn't done what we did we would be morally obligated to open our borders to immigrants - that's what we were and we took along armies to assist us.
Britain has benefited from immigration immensely - culturally, economically and socially
At a time when the world is torn by warfare and poverty that we have contributed to, with arms sales, propping up depots, filling our shops with slave produced goods and with our thirst for oil, it would be totally immoral for us to close our borders.
Jim arroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:29 PM

""zero hours contracts" have been a by product of EU policy."
Zero hour contracts were put into motion by Thatcher when she forced redundancies on the miners - it is debatable whether it was this that was here main aim or whether she intended to close the coal industry altogether - it is a pretty well established fact that the icing on the cake was the destruction of the unions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:29 PM

Zero hours contracts are NOT the result of any EU law regulation directive or policy. Capital will not lightly abandon them and UK law under the con-servatives is intended to and does prevent labour unions from using such contracts and depressing wages. Every serious study shows that immigration is a net benefit to our economy, resulting in more, not fewer, jobs. The lack of regulation on capital merely means that capital skins the workers alive as automation reduces the need for a human workforce, and slips the money out of the country. Akenhateon you are a fantasist and a xenophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 04:34 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 03:21 PM
If I were leaving school today, whatever job I managed to get, I would be "a worker" - I would be forced to take any job or I would not receive the unemployment pay from the taxes I paid all my working life - simply a way of manipulating the unemployment figures.

Jim,
If you were leaving school today, you wouldn't have had a working life in which to pay tax.

Or am I missing some amazingly analytical new form of debate here?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 07:56 PM

"you wouldn't have had a working life in which to pay tax."
Sorry - put that badly
I should have said "throughout my working life, were I to become unemployed "I would be forced to take any job or I would not receive the unemployment pay from the taxes I paid all my working"
Memo - never multi task difficult digitisation.
Apologies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:13 PM

" these "zero hours contracts" have been a by product of EU policy"

Rubbish. Zero-hours contracts took off big-time only under the 2010 Cameron regime, rising from near-zilch to almost a million in five years. As did fake apprenticeships that pay less than half of the minimum wage, £2.79 per hour last I heard. As did the explosion of "self-employment," basically a ploy to get employees off the backs of employers so that they wouldn't have to pay NI and pension contributions for them and so that the poor sods were kept off the unemployment register. And we won't even mention the hundreds of thousands on temporary, seasonal or part-time contracts that don't pay enough to live on. This is what the bloody Tories always do. Anything to keep the numbers down on the headline unemployment register. Ally that with making it next to impossible to get Jobseekers, and we get the monthly crowing about how there are "more people in jobs than ever before." In the past they did it by putting two and a half million people, mostly thrown out of their jobs by Thatcherite revenge, on "incapacity benefit" instead of doing the honest thing and calling them what they actually were, unemployed. Well tell me this then: how come productivity in this country so stubbornly flatlines year after year, and how come we have such a massive trade deficit? Tory Britain is a shaky edifice constructed entirely on a bunch of lies, but my, don't they look so good?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 08:48 PM

"two and a half million people, mostly thrown out of their jobs by Thatcherite revenge,"

Bloody hell, I thought you people had exhausted all the conspiracy theories ......Red doors, Armbands, now its Thatchers "revenge"
What revenge would that be then? AFAICS the people were made redundant because they were no longer competitive, industry either makes a profit or fails, and British industry failed big time, don't you remember the shite we were producing? The strikes etc?

I you want a capitalist system you play by their rules, you don't whine about it.
If the British left had any balls they would have embraced socialism, but instead they went for electability and Tony F Blair.
Fucking hypocrites almost to a man......no self respecting person with one ounce of political acumen would associate with you lot.
You live in a fairyland where everything is laid on for you everyone does exactly as he/she likes and the tab will be picked up by someone else.....contribution is optional.

Socialism will NOT be a free meal ticket, start learning and spreading the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 09:06 PM

Jaysus, this bloke lives in fairyland.

Thatcher closed down manufacturing in this country because the unions got a bit iffy with her, and she then put the economy in the hands of speculators and yuppies. We now have to buy our coal and gas from dodgy and unreliable sources, yet her supporters will burble on about how the EU undermines our sovereignty, etc. She did more to do that by making us dependent on energy imports than any Brussels bureaucrat could ever have done. She imposed a ludicrous regime on teachers after they got uppity in the mid-80s. Thatcher took revenge on her opponents. She turned the country into a place In which loadsamoney spivs could have a field day. She deregulated financial institutions so that they could rip us all off when the going was good and make us bale out the bastards out when things, inevitably, went pear-shaped. Yes, no thanks to Blair and Brown for not putting the brakes on, before you say anything, but it was Maggie and Nigella's dad wot started it. Shame really, cos Nigella's my bloody favourite, but hey.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:13 AM

"Have you actually been to Germany recently? I have, and your description of an economy stalling and faltering does not hold water."

Now then GUEST Dave actually read what I said and tell me which bit of it that you have trouble understanding:

"While the economies of Europe have stalled and faltered Britain's trade with the rest of the world has grown. Europe's financial woes will continue as long as they are driven by idiotic political dogma which allows for breaches of fundamental principles as occasion demands by those and such as those. The EU is and always has been from the start a cosy little club that looks after the best interests of France and Germany."

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:17 AM

The grunts bite the hand that feeds the grunts.

When he isn't being xenophobic, homophobic, misogynist or plain confused, he tells us he is a member of a political party with the slogan "prosperity through equality." The same party he says he supports is pro EU too.... In many ways, The SNP are happy to be the Labour Party Blair promised.

Then he rattles on about how he, understandably given his posts, likes Trump and other US based jokes.

Amazing...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:31 AM

Poor Yuppies, alway the scapegoat for those Corgi bastards

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:34 AM

"Thatcher closed down manufacturing in this country because the unions got a bit iffy with her"

What planet were you living on between 1969 and 1979? Britain's heavy industry was in dire shape years before Thatcher came to power. On the subject of the Unions, who should Govern the country the elected Government or the Trades Unions? Most certainly the Trades Unions in the period referred to attempted to overturn Government policy under both Labour and Conservative administrations.

On the "zero hours" contracts - a sense of perspective is required the working population of the UK is something in the order of 29 million people the percentage of that workforce on "zero hour" contracts is less than 2% IIRC.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:02 AM

"What planet were you living on between 1969 and 1979? Britain's heavy industry was in dire shape years before Thatcher came to power."
And in need of repair, not closure
The only beneficiaries of what Thatcher did were the extremely wealthy - the rest of us had to face the consequences
The country was torn in half, the industries that were killed off were replaced with - nothing, parts of the industrial North became deserts, communities that had sprung up around the industries, particularly the mines, have never really recovered.
Much of today's troubles dates back to her reign of terror.
The did more damage to Britain than The Blitz and made us dependent on exports.
He election slogan was "Britain isn,t working" - the only one she ilved up to.
"Leaner and fitter my arse
Only an eejit could claim that working people in any way benefited from the closures.
THE THATCHER YEARS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:12 AM

Jim, what was done to the North in the Thatcher years is a job that the Cameron regime regards as half finished. What is coming will be the worst thing to hit the region since 1069. If Britain leaves the EU, our thin veneer of protection is further eroded. Better for us to be out of the UK, and in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:29 AM

"She deregulated financial institutions so that they could rip us all off when the going was good and make us bale out the bastards out when things, inevitably, went pear-shaped."

I've got news for you Steve, that is not "Thatcher's revenge", that is how the capitalist system works. Any tinkering with it causes stagnation. It is cyclical in nature and investment goes where the biggest profits are to be made.
Britain simply could not compete globally due to lack of investment on new plant and production methods, but chiefly because of the mad wasteful standard of living which we had come to expect.
This unrealistic attitude to lifestyle has continued into the twenty first century and has produced a society which contains the very rich, the very "comfortable", and a huge underclass who are largely ignored and left to fester in a situation where work is unavailable through lack of proper training and the development of a work ethic.
Amongst this underclass, there are huge drug problems which our health services seem unable or unwilling to address, social problems regarding criminality are so common as to be considered normal.

Granting marriage "rights" to homosexuals, or expensive operations and all the follow up after care involved to to psychiatric cases who believe themselves to be of a different gender will make not a jot of difference to the real problems of society.....in fact , this media inspire concentration on "rights" issues compounds the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:44 AM

BTW....what happened to the "Work" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:49 AM

"but chiefly because of the mad wasteful standard of living which we had come to expect."

What, you mean like buying a Porsche every time your bonus comes in and snorting cocaine through a £50 note as the city wide boys have come to expect? Or having enough to feed and clothe our children, and put a roof over their heads as the rest of us struggle to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 04:50 AM

Well, Teribus, unemployment almost trebled in the four years of Thatcher's first term and she never got it back to 1979 levels. The vast majority of those lost jobs were industrial. That happened on the same planet I lived on at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:11 AM

"
What, you mean like buying a Porsche every time your bonus comes in and snorting cocaine through a £50 note as the city wide boys have come to expect? Or having enough to feed and clothe our children, and put a roof over their heads as the rest of us struggle to do?"

The rush into home ownership, by people who simply could not afford mortgages was one of the typical symptoms of capitalism in the raw.
The mad idea that owning ones home meant financial security, when the exact opposite was the case.

With the new homes came a very expensive lifestyle, décor furnishings etc......it was win win for the system and big future losses for Joe Bloggs when it all went arse up!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:12 AM

1: "Britain's heavy industry was in dire shape years before Thatcher came to power."
And in need of repair, not closure

And whose restrictive work practices and demarcation rules meant that any attempt to streamline, modernise and make more efficient and thus more competitive was resisted to the point of lunacy? Trades Unions wasn't it?

2: "The only beneficiaries of what Thatcher did were the extremely wealthy - the rest of us had to face the consequences"

Untrue. What Thatcher created was a nation of stakeholders.

3: "the industries that were killed off were replaced with - nothing"

Now if that was true Jom that would mean that the percentage unemployment in the UK would be far greater now than it was in 1979 to 1985 - but it isn't is it?

4: THE THATCHER YEARS

Have been over now for a quarter of a century in which time there have been Conservative, Labour and Coalition Governments in power, more than half of that time they were consecutive Labour Governments and in all that time not a single one of the measures taken by Maggie was reversed - that is how harmful they were to the country, you see we as a nation could simply not afford to subsidise the mining industry at the rate of £250 million per day in order to provide our other failing industries with power based on coal at the real price of £250 per ton when our competitors were getting coal based power at £8 per ton.

On youngsters in Ireland and your comments about it being no great hardship for them leaving to find work - does that make you one of the Tebbit "On-Your-Bike" Brigade Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:30 AM

"I've got news for you Steve, that is not "Thatcher's revenge", that is how the capitalist system works. "
And she became and extremist advocate for that capitalism - so extreme in fact that she became an embarrassment to her own party, who ditched her (one of my favourite images from that time was of her being driven away in tears after her toys had been taken from her)
"mad wasteful standard of living which we had come to expect."
What!!!!!!
Thatcher came into office on the basis of the huge discontent created by the cobnditions people were living in under Labour, whose policies were not far removed from the Tories - remember the saachi and Saachi campaing "Labour isn't working" - that is why she managed to take office
I don't know where you live or what you do, but our side of the planet were facing rising unemployment and changes our living conditions thanks to policies like "In Place of Strife".
Jay-sus - you Tories always blame the victim, don't you.?
Britain couldn't compete because the industries had been deliberately run dow through lack of investment - SFA to do with us living off the hog's back
Despite what our "patriotic" friend tells us, our products were the best in the World, particularly steel - any failures came from the top, not from the factory floor.
World competition would have meant the forcible pushing down of wages to compete with what was being paid to third world workers.
Stop blaming the workers for capitalism - putting profit before nations and people is and always has been the measure of success of the system - this is what you are peddling.
"Jim, what was done to the North in the Thatcher years is a job that the Cameron regime regards as half finished."
Right ****** on!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:36 AM

I agree that house price inflation is a major detriment to the country, and needs to be reversed, but this began under Lawson, not Brown, and the growth of buy to let has been one of the major problems. Funnily enough people need furnishings for their homes whether they buy them or rent them. or would you rather that they were living in cardboard boxes, or makeshift tents covered by plastic bags, as in teh third world.

"What Thatcher created was a nation of stakeholders."

Sure, but they are a tiny minority. Most of us have no stake, far less of a stake than we did after WWII, when with the implementation of Beveridge, the creation of the NHS and the welfare state, most people did have a stake in the country which has sense been gradually taken away.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:46 AM

"The rush into home ownership, by people who simply could not afford mortgages was one of the typical symptoms of capitalism in the raw.
The mad idea that owning ones home meant financial security, when the exact opposite was the case.

With the new homes came a very expensive lifestyle, décor furnishings etc......it was win win for the system and big future losses for Joe Bloggs when it all went arse up!"

1: The rush into home ownership that "Right-To-Buy" brought about saw former Council House Tenants buying properties that they had lived in for years (decades in many cases) very cheaply, no need to point out that those houses were already fully furnished and the mortgages on those properties were tiny and easily affordable.

2: The problem you describe Ake came later and was not tied to anything political in the UK. What you detail was all part and parcel of your "false and artificially high" expectation problem. Our parents lived within their means or starved that is what life and commonsense taught them - not so today's generation who believe that debt can be walked away from and there can be no consequences as "they know their rights" and it is always somebody else's fault and they should pick up the tab.

3: Where what you describe was politically driven was over in the USA during the Clinton Administrations time in Office. To buy votes and demonstrate to all that the American Dream was alive and well and achievable Mortgage Brokers were hoodwinked into arranging mortgages for people who could not afford them. In cahoots with the Clinton Administration the main mortgage brokers in the USA, Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae, implied to the banks and those providing mortgages that the Fed would guarantee the loans - This was untrue and the Fed knew nothing about it. House prices rose and people thought that house values would rise for ever, which of course they didn't. Unfortunately those who had been given mortgages that they couldn't afford had remortgaged their properties and when this bubble burst and loans were called in the Fed did not guarantee the loans and we had the financial crash of 2008 (Some 17 years after Margaret Thatcher left office).

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 05:46 AM

sense -> since

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:12 AM

Thatcher did not create a nation of stakeholders. She sold off the public utilities cheaply so that better-off people could buy shares and probably carry on always voting Tory. Millions of people not only couldn't afford to buy those shares but they also had their own previous stake in the public utilities stolen from them. It's a Tory thing, selling off what isn't yours to sell at too-cheap prices in order to bolster their faulty fiscal policy and give the "stakeholders" the reward of an unearned quick buck when the share prices soar within days of the selloff. Government by spiv. Turn people into mini-capitalists and they'll be Tories for life. As for council houses, all the desirable stock was sold off cheaply with massive discounts. Here's a financial lesson for you, Teribus. Most people who buy houses with repayment mortgages spend decades seeing the capital sum they owe scarcely going down at all. People living in the more desirable council houses, on the other hand, after living there for equivalent periods of time or less, got massive sweeteners in the form of big discounts. Toryism writ large, leaving the Keith Joseph tower block shite for the poorest. And I am in no way defending the Blair years. The Tories must have loved watching Thatcher's legacy being perpetuated by that shower. Under Cameron, normal Tory service has been resumed. Next thing, bye-bye NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:17 AM

Well put Mr T, the "Right to buy scheme" was an absolute masterstroke by a supreme politician.....it worked on so many levels.
Unfortunately for me and my kind, it set socialism (not "liberalism") back another fifty years.
I just wish the serious left could find someone with the self belief of Mrs Thatcher and the balls to see their ideas put into practice, but I suppose its easier to convince people that they are all going to be more wealthy, than to make them accept the need for a cut in personal living standards to provide sustainable public services?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:22 AM

Actually, Dave, the first massive spike in house price inflation was under Heath. The next one took place in the early Thatcher years, pre-Lawson. I know, because I benefited from that one. Not on purpose, I hasten to add! All I did was buy a little house to live in. It more than quadrupled in value in eight years and funded our move to Cornwall. In spite of that I still hate the bloody Tories. I was just lucky, and I was in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:27 AM

"1: The rush into home ownership that "Right-To-Buy" brought about saw former Council House Tenants buying properties that they had lived in for years (decades in many cases) very cheaply, no need to point out that those houses were already fully furnished and the mortgages on those properties were tiny and easily affordable."
On a minute scale only - Thatcher turned it into a national policy which turned homes into commodities.
People were encouraged and eventually forced to become housing speculators with their homes as stakes - come the collapse of the housing boom many, many thousands lost their homes - many of these simply turned the key in the door and walked away from them because they could not pay the mortgages - saw the results of this throughout London at the time as an electrician working mainly in housing - daily tragedies.
The response of the Government at the time, and no doubt yours, was "You shouldn't have taken on mortgages you can't pay - though many of these debts were accrued because of the lever of unemployment.
'Right to buy' was a spin version for privatisation.
The only way people can become successful 'stakeholders' is to have enough money to ride the vicissitudes of the market - the whole cynical poly was to con people into believing they were part of capitalist society rather than victims of it.
You'vve been given the facts and figures of the Thatcher years and its aftermath - not surprising that you choose to ignore it.
Thatcher was a self-exposed fascist and her policies reflected that
Did Margaret Thatcher really save Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:30 AM

Now there is an admission which explains a lot.
No wonder you are not interested in socialism Steve.
Property speculation is a cardinal sin!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:32 AM

You were like me then, weren't you. One of the lucky minority. Right place, right time. Toryism writ large, sod the rest who live in those areas which never return Tory MPs anyway. Funny, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:36 AM

Mt last post was in response to Steve, not Mr T, who has never at any time pretended to be a socialist......:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:36 AM

Property speculation my arse. I've bought two houses in my life, one after the other, and was saddled with a mortgage for 35 years. Both houses were/are my homes, not "properties" or "investments." If you were a nice bloke I'd let you come and see, but you're not, so you can just bugger off with your judgemental attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:55 AM

THE HOUSING SITUATION NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 06:57 AM

Interesting that the Tory slogan has changed from "Right to buy" to "Pay to stay"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:49 AM

Is there a Mudcat equivalent of Godwin's Law which says that every discussion will sooner or later invoke Thatcher? It's been 25 years since she left office. It's history. We need to be looking forward, to a referendum which could change our future in uncertain and unpredictable ways, instead of going over old and tired arguments.

I am broadly supportive of the idea of the EU, but in many ways it is a disfunctional organisation and insufficiently democratic. Despite its objective of "ever closer union" sensible decisions are all too often scuppered by countries acting in their own narrow national interests. Actually I wouldn't mind that so much if the EU wasn't trying to impose uniformity on us all, rather than recognise that we are different countries with different cultures, traditions, and social and legal systems.

The problem with this referendum is that we are being offered a pig in a poke. The referendum was offered for party political reasons, as a sop to Tory Eurosceptics and to shoot UKIP's fox. No doubt Cameron expected to be able to trade it away in coalition negotiations with the Lib-dems, but was confounded by unexpectedly winning the election.

This is the worst possible time to consider leaving the EU, which is facing unprecedented upheaval in an increasingly uncertain and unstable world. The Schengen agreement has been torn up in the face of the refugee influx, the Eurozone is in crisis, and ever closer union seems dead in the water as countries and electorates turn inwards. We should be waiting until these issues have been sorted out before deciding, rather than having the timing determined by purely party considerations.

Coming out is fraught with uncertainties. Yes we will still trade with the EU, but on what basis? How will it affect our political as well as economic relations with EU countries, during turbulent times with threats from Russia and in the Middle East? How will it affect our relationships with the US and other countries? Could Britain leaving destabilise the EU? It will certainly resurrect the question of Scottish independence. No doubt there would be gains as well as losses, my point is that we just don't know. Staying in is not without its problems, but at least we know what to expect and still have the option of coming out later if the necessary reforms don't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain and the EU
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 08:04 AM

"It's history."
Our history has made us what we are - it is where we have been and provides us with warnings of where not to go again.
One of the above links describes how her policies still affect us.
She was a self declared fascist (though she didn't quite choose those words to describe herself)
You are right that the EU is fraught with uncertainties, but if things continue as they are, it is certain that things will get worse.
Until someone comes up with a better solution, it remains an option which has to be dealt with in real terms - not as an attack on "our sovereignty" which affects most of us not a jot.
It worked to a large degree for Ireland - it will do as a stop-gap for Britain in my opinion
Jim Carroll