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Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'

GUEST,J Taylor 22 Feb 16 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,# 22 Feb 16 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,J. Taylor 24 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,# 25 Feb 16 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,J. Taylor 01 Mar 16 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 01 Mar 16 - 12:38 PM
Anglogeezer 01 Mar 16 - 01:32 PM
cnd 01 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM
Anglogeezer 01 Mar 16 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,# 02 Mar 16 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,AWK 30 May 16 - 09:39 AM
cnd 30 May 16 - 10:48 AM
Jack Campin 30 May 16 - 02:18 PM
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Subject: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,J Taylor
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 02:28 PM

I'm trying to find this tune that seems to be common to a number of ballads in the Bodleian). I haven't come across any mention of it, except in the archives on the Mudcat where some naval songs are listed as having the tune "A Fig for France and Holland Too (or Round About the Hollow Tree)" which is also unresponsive to my Internet searches.

Does the infinitely superior Hive Mind of the Mudcat Café have any ideas?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 09:40 PM

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?cc=eebo;c=eebo;idno=b03378.0001.001;node=B03378.0001.001%3A1;seq=1;vid=183356;page=root;view=text

Just parking these links. Power out here and likely to be so for more than a few hours, so before my battery runs out . . .


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,J. Taylor
Date: 24 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM

Thank you! That seems like a good number of resources that I will look through. I hope you can expand when the power comes back...


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Feb 16 - 10:22 AM

It sure looks like 'AFfF(aHt)' was used for many 'songs'. Many references to it online with various titles. But I can't find the original air/melody. I'm wondering if maybe a search of naval songs of that period might produce something useful. A few sites (it seems quoting the Bodleian reference) mention the melody as though it was so well known it needed little but its title to be recognized by people. That puts it prior to 1666 and chances of finding it online look to be twixt slim and none.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,J. Taylor
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:21 AM

I've got in touch with someone from the Folk Archive at the University of Sheffield, to see if they have any further leads. I'll post here if anything comes up!

It does seem a popular tune, and fascinating how these things can just flutter away from the oral memory.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 12:38 PM

Google pointed me to a chunk of Brian Weiser's "Charles II and the Politics of Access", which quotes a song performed by the burghers of London on the day before Charles II's coronation, which contains the lines "We'll not care a Fig/For France, for France for Netherlands nor Spain". The source he cites is John Ogilby, "The Entertainment of Charles II", ed. Ronald Knowles.

Google also finds an entry in the catalogue of the Pepys Library (II:329) which references a tune "Legin Water, or Round About the Hollow Tree" - presumably that's what we now know as "Logan Water". Maybe the hollow tree in question was the King's oak at Worcester?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:32 PM

There is a website called - EARLY AMERICAN SECULAR MUSIC AND ITS EUROPEAN SOURCES, 1589–1839: AN INDEX
here : http://www.cdss.org/elibrary/Easmes/Index.htm

Within the indexes I found a reference to a song/tune called - BRITISH LIBERTY or A FIG FOR THE FRENCH, which has the first line
"THE PRINCE WHOM TATTER'D SUBJECTS FEAR. "

This is found in "A COLLECTION OF EIGHTEENTH CENTURY SHEET SONGS. VOL 3" at the FOLGER SHAKESPEARE LIBRARY, Washington, DC

The record card for the title refers to Key Signature, Time Signature and instruments. So, there should be music??

This is fairly close to "A Fig for France".

regards
Jake


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: cnd
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM

What Anglogeezer was saying is here:
http://oasis.lib.harvard.edu/oasis/deliver/~mus00032

http://www.cdss.org/elibrary/Easmes/Source3/S035518.htm


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 06:24 PM

thanks to 'cnd' for that post

More is always better!

Jake


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 03:40 AM

If your request to the Folk Archive at the U of S doesn't pan out it might be worth it to find all the references we can to AFfF(aHt) and the 'songs' the melody was used for. At that point the search could concentrate on finding one of those songs with a printed melody somewhere. (Euclid: Things which equal the same thing also equal one another.)

I'm at wit's end with the circular way my searches are going. Ain't working.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: GUEST,AWK
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:39 AM

Searching for this tune brought me here and I got a wee bit disheartened... but then two clicks later I stumbled up on this .


A tune provided to a song with first line 'a fig for St Dennis of France'. However: it mentions that the tune is known as 'The Groves of the Pool' and I have a but of trouble getting the lyrics that were my starting point to fit on it well.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: cnd
Date: 30 May 16 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for that, AWK. I spent a good while looking for it and never found it. Even if the fit awkwardly, it's a good jumping off point, at least.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 'A Fig for France (and Holland too)'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:18 PM

Whereas "Logan Water" fits with no tweaking at all.


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