BS: Qu: Regarding Religion

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:09 AM

I saw quite a few well-turned cheeks in Playboy in my misspent youth, Jim. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:34 AM

"I saw quite a few well-turned cheeks in Playboy in my misspent youth, Jim"
I shall enjoy trying to get to the bottom of that remark Steve
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:43 AM

Misspent youth???
Sounds like a moral judgement, gained by maturing.
So, if it is 'misspent' as you say, maybe there IS something lurking in the back of your mind, or heart, that is consistent with the Judaeo/Christian ethic....how did that happen??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:56 AM

the commandment has always been understood by both Christians and Jews to proscribe only murder.

This is the same class of bullshit, Professor, as your "ALL HISTORIANs" blah, blah, blah"....

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:56 AM

Please step this way Mr Shaw for the analysts couch. Doctor Sanity will see you shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 09:59 AM

Killing meaning "murder" is a later rationalisation - there is no evidence to suggest it was confined to 'unlawful murder'

If you read what Michael tells us, that is exactly what the original commandment and therefore Jesus' understanding of it was.

Nowhere in the scriptures is the deliberate taking of human life for gain condoned, yet "Christians" have condones mass slaughter for just that throughout the ages

No they have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 10:08 AM

I know this isn't what most denominations of so-called Christianity practice....but this is what it is about....and I think it SHOULD clear up the squabble about killing versus murder...

I John 3:14-17
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
By this we have known love, because He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?"

GfS

P.S. Methinks a lot of you ALSO have been turned-off by the hypocrisy of 'religions', sorta like I feel about 'politics'....but that is because neither are being straight!!

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 10:40 AM

Thank you, Keith.

Raggy & Jim: To what extent have you studied the language in which the Pentateuch was originally written, Hebrew? If not at all, as I suspect, then it is unmannerly and ill-becoming of you to dispute as to the meaning of a passage originally written in it, with me, who have [see again my post of 0705 am.]. All v well for Raggy to go on as if the original isn't relevant, but only the [mis]translations; but it seems patent to me that he is simply making a fool of himself in so doing. There is a tipping-point where sticking to one's guns thru thick & thin ceases to be in any way courageous or impressive, but becomes self-defeating idiocy.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 10:57 AM

How does all this square with turning the other cheek and where does it say that killing for gain is OK?
As I say - the scriptures are a contradictory mess, and are impossible to adhere to, so quoting bits and pieces out of context (as is your wont) is as meaningless as they are.
"Raggy & Jim: To what extent have you studied the language in which the Pentateuch was originally written,"
Same response to you Mike
I seem to remember reading that it was OK to be wealthy because 'The Eye of a Needle' referred to a gate in Cairo.... or somewhere - commmmme onnnnn - it's all a pin-'n-mix fairy story anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:00 AM

Michael, As Steve suggested earlier if you ask the next 100 Christians you meet which is the 5th commandment 100 will tell you "Thou shalt not kill" Supposing they are actually practicing Christians and not the once a year at Christmas variety.

Like myself they do not read Hebrew and their understanding of it, like mine, is based for the most part on modern western interpretations of medieval translations of the ancient scripts.

Short of everyone learning an archaic language just so we can discuss with you the semantics of a particular phrase I feel I and many others will stick with the accepted translation.

Bye for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:07 AM


Michael, As Steve suggested earlier if you ask the next 100 Christians you meet which is the 5th commandment 100 will tell you "Thou shalt not kill"

They would because the KJ mistranslation is so well known.
Ask them for their understanding of it, and they will tell you the same as I told you.
Jesus did not learn his commandments from the KJ bible!

where does it say that killing for gain is OK?

Nowhere, because it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:20 AM

Can these head-in-sand ostriches not get the point that the belief, universal at one time, that the Earth was flat did not make it so? It doesn't matter how many people think that what Moses wrote was what they should be bound by, when they are in error as to what it was in the first place.

So here's adieu right back to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:21 AM

Jeez!!..I hit the nail on the head for ya' and you are still 'straining at a gnat, while swallowing a camel'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:32 AM

The Holman Christian Standard bible: "Do not murder"
International Standard Version: "You are not to commit murder"
GOD'S WORD: "Never murder"
JPS Tanakh 1917: "Thou shalt not murder"
New American Standard 1977: "You shall not murder."
Jubilee Bible 2000: "Thou shalt not murder."
English Revised Version: "Thou shalt do no murder."
World English Bible: "You shall not murder."
Young's Literal Translation: "'Thou dost not murder."
From Bible Hub

Smiting is apparently OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 11:55 AM

Thanks, Jeri.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:09 PM

"Smiting is apparently OK."
And "turning the other cheek" is to be ignored, I presume?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:15 PM

I've already made my point about the "Christian" attitude to warfare and asked is it ok to Kill for gain - the silence was deafening.
Is there a Christian rulebook to justify when killing is acceptable and when it is not - or do you make it up to suit yourself?
Then we might be able to move on to 'Love they neighbor' for all those "Christians" who want to send them all back from where they came from - or has that been re-translated as well?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:38 PM

I've already made my point about the "Christian" attitude to warfare and asked is it ok to Kill for gain - the silence was deafening.

There was no silence.
In reply to your,
Nowhere in the scriptures is the deliberate taking of human life for gain condoned, yet "Christians" have condones mass slaughter for just that throughout the ages I replied "No they have not."

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM

I doubt Christians etc have ever interpreted anything. The commandment says thou shalt not kill.

I doubt a mind that believes make believe is capable of distinguishing nuances based on multiple medieval writings that pretend to be translations of fairy stories from a thousand years or more before even they wrote. And they were writing in order to preserve the control over peasants their masters required.

As Raggy said. Thou shalt not kill. Military Padres are a weird concept, same as the sick bastards with dog collars who "officiate" as Americans kill their prisoners by injection.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 02:07 PM

The commandment says thou shalt not kill.

No it does not.
Not in the original.
There has been one mistranslation, the KJ Bible, now corrected.
Please read Michael's and Jeris' posts on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 02:19 PM

Dear oh dear Keith, my fundamentalist connections would have a fit if you suggested that the KJV had mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 04:56 PM

Yes but theologians writing in the last twenty years who are still alive have formed a consensus 😹😹😹😹

There's something nice about "thou shalt not kill." There's something sinister about qualifying that. The terrorists who are perverting the q'ran would be proud of the fuckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 05:06 PM

'And "turning the other cheek" is to be ignored, I presume?'

I certainly don't think someone should be smitten for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 07:20 PM

I've seen some cheeks that I've been thoroughly smitten with.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 07:49 PM

"There has been one mistranslation, "
Isn't that convenient now!!
Not enough Keith - you have been given a list of examples of the slaughter they have carroied out for political power and wealth - I might have added The Crusades - which were simply to open the Trades routs - plenty more of this sort of thing - or the opening up of Empires to 'civilise' the conquered.
Christian Spain wiped out entire cultures in pursuit of gold
Britain took prt in the mass slaughter of entire generations in the name of "God, King and Country"
The Borgias (2 popes among that lot) were masters of war, avarice, rape and murder.
You refuse to respond to the command of "turning the other cheek" (doesn't matter - your silence is as eloquent as your denial) - a clear statement of pacifism - then how about the big Yin's "Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword." (Matthew, 26) - another clear invocation of pacifism.
'Christians' like you would give your religion a bad name if history hadn't got there before you.
Hypocrites all - your Gospels are as adaptable as Easter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 02:10 AM

Now now Jim..   Their bible also says, (so I hear, I could be wrong) that you shouldn't suffer a witch to live.

All you have have to do is define "witch" and the world is your oyster.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 02:12 AM

Does anyone deny that the commandment in its original form, as it was known to Jesus, referred to murder not killing?
If not, move on.

Jim, Jesus preached love and forgiveness.
Many Christians feel they must be pacifists to be true followers.
Most do not.
Jesus never spoke against the law allowing someone to be stoned to death or otherwise executed.
He never spoke against people who were soldiers, and neither did John the Baptist or Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 03:35 AM

The commandment as displayed and drilled into the heads of people reads "thou shalt not kill"

Whether it was known to someone who may be a historical character (but if so was a human and didn't perform real miracles) or the mythical leadership cult the evidence suggests, is irrelevant.

Whatever such a person may have known, it wasn't written in olde English when he may have read it so your argument lacks logic Keith.

Mind you, logic and sky pixies never made good bed mates.

By the way, the difference between kill and murder is distinguished by more temporal means such as courts and elected governments. Civilised countries dropped the god delusion in such matters years ago.

If Christians don't go for the shalt not kill angle, there's not much point in listening to them eh? interpreting old books to allow you to kill people? Where are we hearing that now? Let's see...

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 04:23 AM

I don't know if some people are just being deliberately contrary.....a distinct possibility..., or just don't get it !   Moses was before king James and therefore the Hebrew text has the original meaning , and Christians are supposed to accept the original meaning, whatever the misleading translation might be since kng James. I did tap out more last night but it did,nt take.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 04:31 AM

The short version. I think the New Testament used soldiers as analogies in the epistles to illustrate lessons . The soldiers job in those times encompassed policing, civil order, and mail too to some extent I think. I think the early church excommunicated anyone who (willingly?) joined the military but I am not sure on that. I personally think a Christian should be pacifist , but I appreciate that it is not entirely clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 04:31 AM

"Does anyone deny that the commandment in its original form, as it was known to Jesus, referred to murder not killing?"
Of course - does anybody deny that the other messages from the gospels indicate pacifism rather than the message that the modern day church propounds that it is OK to kill if the state says so, or are you going to continue ignoring those messages? (rhetorical question, of course)
"Most do not."
Don't remember a vote being taken on that one - ever, but there again - you seem to have a direct line to both God and the minds of "most people".
Your arguments are medieval - a step back to the "warrior Popes" that plundered the world for power and gain.
For Christ's sake (pun intended) we are talking about a mythological figure whose "message" has been adapted and manipulated by politicians and businessmen for two millennia to further their own ends - what he "preached" is about significant as the words of wisdom of Fionn Mac Cumhaill or Merlin, or Cassandra any other mythological figure
Your own "message", as always, is the one of the State - in this case, it is acceptable to kill and plunder for gain and political influence.
You and your church hold neither justice nor human life as important as the interests of the rich and powerful, and to serve your agenda, you are happy to pick-'n- mix your own supposed beliefs to serve your own agenda.
As for what most people think - I believe that the vast majority firmly believe it is wrong and evil to kill anybody, have never taken a human life themselves and live under the philosophy of 'live and let live' - the ultimate and over-riding message of pacifism.
We don't go to war willingly - far from it - it takes extreme laws and official threats of death to persuade us to bear arms.
Your presentation of a violent, war-like face of humanity is as sickening as many of your other arguments in favour of a sick political system in decline.
Basically, the Christian 'message' is one of 'Love and Peace' - perhaps the greatest advertising slogan ever.
Are you telling us it is now 'War, conflict and acquisition' - that is certainly your own personal message - you have defended all at one time or another.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 04:35 AM

So pete..

Let's get this straight. Christians are supposed to know and understand ancient hebrew, are to shun the bible real christians have been using in The UK since er.. King James, and soldiers should be excommunicated.

it's the poor military padres I feel sorry for. Where will they get a job with their lack of real world experience?

Keith! Joe! Is pete right? Is he a christian or are you? He reckons you can't be whilst you think he is round the bend.

I'll get the popcorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Stu
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 06:25 AM

" I think the New Testament used soldiers as analogies in the epistles to illustrate lessons"

But Pete, you don't do analogies... do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 09:42 AM

the New Testament used soldiers as analogies

Absolutely not true, pete- the Bible is the word of God and is litetrally true, word for word.

Had you temporarily forgtten?

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 11:01 AM

He's as boutique and hypocritical as the rest of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 11:11 AM

Greg, can you ever give it a rest? I'm in disagreement with Pete's literalism, but he knows what he's talking about in this instance. He's not referring here to alleged facts in the Bible that others don't accept; he's referring to instances in which the writer is not narrating, but is instead clearly using an analogy to convey a concept; "sermonizing" in a letter to a church group.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 11:28 AM

Thank you, frog prince. I was merely contributing to the discussion but some posters are just looking for confrontation. Btw, I don't actually call it literalism but reading according to the genre , and you could see the difference as far as the NT is concerned. Seems some have a harder time doing so !

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 11:29 AM

But Pete keeps saying it's true. All true.

Any stance other than analogy would indicate the god and Jesus stuff is actually true. No intelligent person falls for that nonsense, not even those employed to perpetuate control over others.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 11:59 AM

Yes, you contributed to the discussion by saying Christians have to believe the Hebrew bit and that KJV is false.

A sweeping statement like that, which just about every Christian would bristle at isn't "merely" anything but is provocative.

Still, it's all bollocks anyway eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 12:16 PM

Music is (and has been) a highly effective war propaganda vehicle (as religion is, and has been in many conflicts):




war and music 

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Mar 16 - 06:48 PM

Ed T.: "Music is (and has been) a highly effective war propaganda vehicle (as religion is, and has been in many conflicts)."

Propaganda for which?:
__Freedom
__Communism
__Socialism
__Democracy
__Religion
__Monarchies
__Corporate Globalism
__Totalitarianism
__All of the above
__None of the above

It can also be used for healing...and uniting..and inspiration.
HOWEVER, the ABUSE of ANY of the above, can be, and has been damaging.

That all being said, music is a powerful medium, that should be studied, as to what makes it resonate within the souls of man.

BTW, I'm not disputing your post...just want those in here, who are politically, or religiously deluded, to take a closer look beyond their delusions.

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 02:39 AM

Musket,
A sweeping statement like that, which just about every Christian would bristle at isn't "merely" anything but is provocative.

No.
Just about every Christian understands that the commandment is about murder not killing.
Ask some.
You have family members who are Christian, and a priest I seem to remember.
Prayers are regularly offered for our armed forces in my typical CofE church, and there are Chaplains provided by all the main Churches including Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 03:02 AM

Islam providing chaplains ................................ there's novel

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 03:09 AM

GfS, freedom was summed up in song by Kris Kristofferson.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 03:38 AM

Just about every Christian qualifies "thou shalt not kill"??? Really???

I have an in law about to start his first rector job after two years learning Ancient Greek and how to talk in public. I have a good friend who is a vicar. The former is clever but smiles too much and the latter sees his role as a social worker without rules. Incidentally, he uses the word metaphor rather than the word historical. He can't reconcile metaphysical nonsense with scientific reality but says that doesn't stop his bible being his moral compass.

There again I have a friend who reckons we never went to the moon and is possibly watching repeats of The X Files at this minute.

Military Padres are about as awful an interpretation of hypocrisy as I can think of. I assume their bibles are edited to remove the bits about turning the other cheek and not killing. Although presumably they convince themselves the enemy are gay witches? Both fair game to your all loving, all forgiving, all embracing god delusion.

Talk to pete about pacifism. He's a real Christian apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 03:59 AM

Sadly Guest,Musket, those aren't repeats, its an actual new series.

I am with Pete on this one, and many Christians are. Not sure its most, but many. Quakers obviously, and the Methodist church is quite close to endorsing pacifism. Then there are individual examples like Bruce Kent, Paul Oestreicher and Rowan Williams.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 04:03 AM

By the way, club rules dictate I answer for what Musket writes, and I am happy to do so. But it is me with the vicar connections not Musket who Keith quotes.

We move in mysterious ways. Although we don't kill or murder along the way. The other two Muskets have this hypocritical oath thingy and imagine if you could interpret rather than accept that? Oh, some doctors in The USA and other third world countries do. Together with prison chaplains as they work together at executions.

It's the "Christians this that and the other" bits that gets my goat. I'll tether it outside Keith's house when I get around to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 04:34 AM

This may help, regarding the translation of 'murder' versus 'kill'

...then I guess it's up to your 'political' or 'religious' spin whether you agree, or not....but,at least get it accurate.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 04:34 AM

"Just about every Christian understands that the commandment is about murder not killing."
More unpublished surveys Keith or did you ask them all personally?
Like many things, even practicing Christians, are not interested in what the gospel says or means - they leave that to the preachers and priests.
Having been subjected to a religious education, I was never told at any time that 'thou shalt not kill" meant anything other than what it said.
The fact that Christian leaders have never adhered to that has basically been ignored, just like the rich man not being allowed into heaven -a bit of long accepted hypocrisy.
There are enough quotes from the gospels to indicate that Christianity as preached was basically pacifist - the wannabe warriors among us have chosen to to either adapt or ignore those quotes which don't fit their own warlike agenda.
Rather typical is your refusal to respond to the ones that have been given.
This is a somewhat strange turnaround on your part
Not too long ago you were blaming the Muslim religion for what a few Muslims were doing - 'implanted'.
Now you are saying that Christianity is a philosophy which promotes killing; as you refuse to respond to killing for gain, I can only assume that this is also part of Christian philosophy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Qu: Regarding Religion
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 04:49 AM

It's alright Goofus. There is no need for confusion. Your bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say anything about murder.

If only Muslims had the PR consultants Christians have? Imagine not having to apologise for the terrorists abusing your faith? Imagine being able to tell people black is white and keeping a straight face whilst doing so?