singaround etiquette

Subject: Folklore: si garound etiquette
From: GUEST,voice sqad
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 03:50 AM

Been to a singaround recently where people were trying to join in verses as the singer was performing, this threw them off the lyric, is it wrong to join in verses when other folk are performing, .

Subject: RE: Folklore: si garound etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:13 AM

Sure - join in the verses , but only if you are certain you will be singing EXACTLY the same lyrics and possible tune variations as the singer . Otherwise keep quiet

Subject: RE: Folklore: si garound etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:30 AM

Also depends on the etiquette/accepted parameters of that particular session. At my own session the rule is: everyone joins in if they want to, unless the person leading off specifically requests to perform on their own. Which works. And very often, people will not join in willy-nilly because the performance is either so good as to be watchable - or, more rarely so bad as to be impossible!

Subject: RE: Folklore: si garound etiquette
From: Murpholly
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 05:02 AM

One session I go to I try to sing chorus songs. I am left to sing the verses, even if others know the song, but then they all join in the chorus and we get some lovely harmonies. It's good to have a variety and if no chorus, no join in.

Subject: RE: Folklore: singaround etiquette
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 05:45 AM

Tuesday's Beech Band in Manchester has its own chorus book to get everyone singing the same version.
http://www.folkatthebeech.org/singing-songs.html

Doubtless Les can tell us how well it works.
(btw Les, I did a version of it for printing on a printer that does the two sided duplex thing)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think
join in on the chorus if invited.
don't join in with the verses! Even if the performer can't hear, the person sitting next to you can.

Subject: RE: Folklore: singaround etiquette
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 05:56 AM

I'm in the 'don't join in the verses, do join in the choruses' camp. But singarounds/song sessions do differ in what they view as 'correct etiquette' - if in doubt, ask one of the regulars!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 08:53 AM

Joining in the verses sounds rude, unless the performer specifically invites the audience. imho

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 09:18 AM

I'm firmly in the DON'T join in the verses. By all means in the chorus.

When I'm singing a verse I have my own timing which may not be matched by someone else, my own emphasis on words, which again may not matched by someone else.

Unless I have practiced a song with someone else I find it is distracting to say the least to have someone else singing along with the verse.

One final word, if joining in with the chorus take the cue from the singer not from your own interpretation.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 09:20 AM

The default position should be choruses yes, verses no but there are too many variables to be dogmatic.

For example Banks of Sweet Primroses has no chorus but people commonly join in on the last two lines.

Subject: RE: Folklore: singaround etiquette
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 09:57 AM

I am all for not making rules but I do know that it sounds so much better if we leave the verse to the singer and then come in prompt at the start of the chourus and stay with it to the end (of the chorus)

Joe N

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 10:01 AM

In my opinion, no audience member should ever join in the verses uninvited - it is ill-mannered and can be destructive.
I want to hear the singer's interpretation of a song, not anybody else's, whether they know (or think they know) the song, which is what a performance should be about.
A few U.K. singers have earned themselves bad reputations here in Ireland for this practice - one particular very fine singer who really should know better has the habit of audibly humming the tune if she doesn't know the words - utterly crazy.
Some club members have been known to call out "One singer, one song" when it happens - maybe a poster on the wall or a tee-shirt is in order.
I would also suggest to singers that they think very hard before they invite audiences to join in verses - especially guests who have been booked on the basis of their own, and nobody else's singing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 11:20 AM

Absolutely right, Jim.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Mg
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 11:38 AM

It sounds like the question was more for song circle format rather than performers. My default in a song circle is of course if is up to the singer to state her preference but default is sing on verses if you know the song but never overthrow the lead singer and in general never add verses..some exceptions. Never ever add verses from the blue book. Train newcomers to state their preferences as to people singing along and instruments. I love people singing along which is why we call them song circles instead of listening circles. Anyway every place has it's own traditions and state them clearly if you are rigid about this.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the Intel Quad Core
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 11:41 AM

I know what I like. I like Will Fly's version. At my Lower Stoke Winter Sings (now terminated because the pub is a UKIP pub and the landlord a UKRAPPER) we went one stage further and invited instrumental accompaniment as well, unless the singer expressly wished otherwise.

I have been to other primarily song sessions where that was the rule too and had some very positive experiences when singing, a notable example being when a rehearsed arrangement (with my usual tenor) of a shanty in B we were delighted with an extempore blues-style guitar accompaniment coming from behind us. It really gave the song wings (fortunately not Paul McCartney's Wings).

Also, although I am really a very limited mandolin player, I have three times been told that my ad-lib accompaniment was a definite plus, once by a local professional performer, and once (to my great conceit) by an internationally known professional shanty singer.

On the other hand, if I find I am not getting it right I usually shut up pretty fast (which may surprise some here)! Once I was accused of "noodling" (a misuse of the term in my view) when accompanying a singer. I hold that "noodling" is what guitarists do between songs, playing random notes or phrases or just something they like the sound of, so stopping the next song starting.

I am lost for a suitable expression to describe what has happened to me twice - a song or an introduction to a song has been started and then a banjo-player (a well known and very loud tenor player, with, incidentally, a criminal record and who purports to repair, but wrecks, guitars) or a professional "entertainer" with a penchant for unfunny jokes badly told, loudly chimes right over and so stops the song.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Mg
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 11:46 AM

Also ascertain whether group is blue book friendly or not...and groups should be honest about this.   Do not pass out extra blue books. Understand that some people love them and some hate them. Find or start a group that meets your preference. I would never try to convert a group that used them from the start. I wouldn't go either but that is beside the point...if the group does not use them it is not from ignorance but preference.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 01:10 PM

I went with a mate to see a fairly well-known singer at a local folk club. She started to sing and, knowing the song, I unconsciously joined in. My colleague quietly, and quite correctly I should add, told me to STFU. In my ignorance, it hadn't occurred to me that he'd paid money to hear her & not me.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the Intel Quad Core
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 02:58 PM

Actually my favourite joining in story was at our Hazlitt Folk venue at the Style and Winch in Maidstone (Many many yonks ago). We had booked Martin Carthy who was as always rivetting and excellent. We used the "floor spots then guest in each half' format and my band was the last on before him in the second half. He asked if we minded if he joined in! What a gent!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:00 PM

A singaround will usually be organised by someone or someone will be nominated to direct proceedings. That person should be in charge of the rules and either make those rules clear and make sure they are followed.

As someone has already stated these events can vary in all sorts of ways, but the general rule is as stated, one singer for verses and all on chorus.

A separate issue is joining in with instrumental accompaniment. Again it needs to be clear what the rules are in that particular session.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:16 PM

What is the "blue book" please?

CJB

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:48 PM

"Blue Book" = "Rise Up Singing"
It's a songbook that is occasionally used as a hymnal.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: BobKnight
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 04:59 PM

There's a guy in our club who keeps singing long after the lead singer has stopped. So bad that he's still singing the last line when I'm already singing the next - shoot the b******

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 06:50 PM

whatever people truly prefer is up to them of course..but if you have a core of good singers, would you not want to hear them sing with each other more than listening to one person? that is my preference. I used to go why aren't they singing along with me...surely some know this song. and what is great is when several people know the song but not everyone..and good singers generally tone themselves down and follow the leader..sometimes the leader really needs help though and the group could support her.

but there is no all over rule that it is rude to sing along. It was the standard american practice, at least where i am from. Let's sing something we all know...it was never let's listen to this person, then that person, then the next person. Poor voices are not helped by this custom and good ones are silenced more than they need to be...but really, whatever the group and the singer wants but don't be bullied into something.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 08:29 PM

Thanks Ebor Fiddler & Jeri
I'd not heard of it.

More info
https://www.riseupandsing.org/songbooks/rise-up-singing/content/song-layout
"The system includes everything you need (in terms of lyrics & chords but no melodies except in the Rounds chapter) to play or sing along with the song."

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 08:46 PM

FreddyHeadey, there's a second book out, "Rise Again" that Joe Offer from here put a lot of work into.

Every place and every singing session has its own norms. AFAIK, in the US and the UK, it's polite to let the song leader do the verses, and join in only on the choruses. It's not normal to sing everything, and it drives me nuts when people do. If it's normal in your session, that's fine, but it's not the way it's done everywhere. And let me say that if you hum along in what you believe is a quiet manner, it may not be so quiet.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 09:52 PM

Audience, whether singing along or listening I think does depend upon the singer. A cognate is my local call-in NPR talk show radio program, that always invites audience participation, but sometimes the guest is so riveting that we just want to listen (and the host usually tells the guest that that is the case). I think the same is true of some of these folk venues.

I'll name some names - Don Firth, late mudcat member from Seattle, had an incredible voice. I wouldn't have wanted to sing along because I wanted to hear his voice, as did the audience. Stan James, who died several years ago, was another. And Deckman, Bob Nelson, has a beautiful voice. I think I've heard mg (Mary Garvey) sing a couple of times (Rainy Camp) - she has a wonderful voice, and I'd rather listen than join in.

Some of this is organic. And some of it is manners. And certainly, I agree that if the performer states their preference at the beginning, the audience should honor it.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,bbc
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 11:18 PM

I would not sing the verses & only even sing on choruses if invited to do so by the performer. Then, I sing softly & do my best to stay with the performer. As far as I'm concerned, that's courtesy. If you want to sing it all, full-volume & your style, do so at home.

Respectfully,

bbc

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 06:14 AM

As far as I'm concerned - and this is just a personal preference for myself - I encourage the assembled company to join in on anything I perform at any session/singaround I attend. I really love the idea of communal music making and, though the result isn't always completely harmonious, a whole roomful of people getting it together can be a joyous experience.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 07:10 AM

There is another point - on choruses.
It is also good manners to listen to what the singer is doing and not just 'do your own thing', especially in regard to speed.
We saw Walter Pardon perform at clubs on many occasions and we know he quite liked people joining in on his choruses - but....
He actually abandoned singing two of his songs because of audiences' tendencies to low down and drag out the choruses, leaving him to have to pick up the speed he wished to sing at the beginning of each new verse - the singer should be allowed to set the pace - it's his or her song.
I gave up singing 'Go to Sea No More' in public when audiences insisted in putting in a chorus, which, for me, made the song (at the time, my favorite)interminable.
The Singers Club was great for choruses, especially when Ewan and Peggy were on because they made a point of teaching choruses and sometimes experimenting with them.   
Ewan's ballad, 'The Baron of Lys' has a section with a question-response chorus between the seduced woman and the seducer - Ewan divided the audience up into genders and got the women to sing the first part and the men, the second - great fun when it worked.
Peggy regularly suggested that some of here choruses would take harmony "if you feel up to it"   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 08:34 AM

These days singers tend to assume that the choruses are already known. Perhaps they should go back to singing them through first

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 11:34 AM

Agree with the post two above.

The key is to listen. A lot of people don't actually listen to what the singer is doing when they join in.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM

I do sing along with some verses but I'm aware that I probably shouldn't be so I tend to sing them quietly. I can imagine it might be off-putting. Plus it sort of feels like showing-off!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 12:21 PM

On a related note... I recently came unstuck singing the version of 'Twankydillo' that I learned from the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs. The chorus in that book has a slightly different melody to the one everyone seems to know.

It's not radically different, but it's different enough for it to cause a bit of a car-crash: everybody in the room tried to join in, everyone got confused! I adapted and sang all the other choruses the way everyone else wanted to sing them. On the one hand, I felt people should have listened to what I was singing; on the other hand, it's a big anthemic chorus song, it's a singaround, so it's kind of anti-social not to sing it the way the Coppers did, the way everyone knows!

When I've sung that song at subsequent singarounds, I've given up on the New Penguin chorus and stuck to the Copper Family chorus.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM

Surely, Matt, if you're singing a lesser-known version of a song where most of the people there are likely to know a well-known version, you simply tell them what you're doing before you sing it.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM

Autres pays, autres moeurs: in Ireland it's considered deeply rude and attention-seeking to join in with a singer, except *in certain songs* with the chorus; it's not even considered polite to join in the chorus in many songs. Mostly the singer will call out "Sing up" after a line or two of the chorus, if she or he wishes others to join in that chorus, and then and only then will listeners join, falling silent again to allow the singer room for the verses as a solo.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:06 PM

That is great for Ireland and if people like that system, and see it as a system and not a virtue of some kind, have at it. I am still only talking about song circle arrangements, not concerts...and I think noisy pubs where the singer is way amplified and couldn't hear you and the people next to you couldn't hear you but perhaps read your lips...I say decide for yourselves. Would the Germans do Octoberfest that way? Maybe they do. Would the Cornish and Welsh sing that way? Maybe they do too...but in America, as in the portion of NA that they call USA, not to be confused with Greenland, Central or South America or other countries in NA, which would be Canada and Mexico and various territorial islands...we have lots of people from different heritages...German, Scandinavian, Welsh, Eastern European, African. All contributed something and they had different ways of doing things. Anything is fine as long as people agree on it. Just sit in a circle and sing solos...that is not something I would enjoy because I think I have musical ADD. I still want to hear everyone all together all the time. And often you will never see that particular constellation of singers again...why would anyone want to miss hearing them altogether? But to each her own.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:25 PM

The very word 'chorus' means everybody join in. That's what it's there for. What other function could it possibly have?

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: CupOfTea
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM

So, logically, if the repeated parts aren't a CHORUS but a REFRAIN, everyone else should refrain from singing?







Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:51 PM

Doesn't it all sound such fun? I remember Marilyn Middleton-Pollock telling us at our folk club about her experiences of audiences at some folk clubs, "C'mon, this is a folk club and you're a folk singer. Depress us!"

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 06:17 PM

I really love the rich, ringing harmonies we have at one of the folk clubs I attend and the way an end note sustains while the person singing the verse jumps in...love it. That collective singing of the chorus means I have become familiar with many songs; not by just listening but by being part of something and I'm comparatively new to the folk scene compared to others on here...and I still have a lot of new songs to learn!
Singing along to the verse? I wouldn't presume..not only does it seem presumptuous and discourteous to the singer, but it destroys the interplay of a single voice and multi-layered chorus. Doesn't have to sound like a choir..I rather like the more drunken raucous renditions at the end of a night.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:10 AM

I know what! Set up a committee and we can have a 2016 definition of singaround etiquette that our grandkids can quote at each other in years to come.

Will Fly can chair it (too sensible to fall for wind ups)
Jim can be secretary and spokesman.
I'll be treasurer. (Straight in, like.)
Bridge can be quasi legal advisor.

Then we can set up a critics club. Again, I'll be treasurer and wear my trousers up to my tits and we can set precedents by which to interpret the definition.

It'll be minutes of fun!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:14 AM

I could never be a member of a committee that would have me as a member.
(With apologies to Groucho).

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:41 AM

Your fault for going to the toilet at the wrong time. You are Chairman, like it or lump it. Missing the vote is no excuse.

We are..

Wait for it..

It's crap really..

Choir ate



I'll stick to embezzling the funds.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 05:22 AM

Can I have free membership and a gold badge cos I've been singing for over 50 years?

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 12:42 PM

I'll be librarian, riffling noisily through my massive folder while everyone else is singing, taking not a blind bit of notice of them.
THAT drives me bonkers, as does the self-appointed "everyone's accompanist" who tries to drag the singer into the key he prefers, and put a square "4 on the floor" beat on to a song where the singer wants to pull the timing about in his own way.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: JHW
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:12 PM

The second Sunday Folk(ish)Club I'm aiming for tomorrow usually has an MC announcement 'Please don't add instruments unless asked' (Some do ask)

There are some well known songs where it is not unusual for the audience to join in the last line of the verse plus the chorus or even to sing a part of the verse as though it were a chorus e.g. She's o'er the border and awa with Jock O' Hazeldene.

Singing a slightly different version of a well known song does need you to announce that. There are clubs where the audience take a delight in silent attention then joining in correctly.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM

The primary thing is, FOLLOW THE SINGER. Especially important if someone is singing a different version from the one usually sung at a particular session.

The Friday Press Room session (which Curmudgeon -- Tom Hall -- started over 33 years ago) has been both vocal and instrumental right from its inception. I have always tried to sing songs that either have a good chorus to join in on or a good instrumental back up and break to keep the tunifiers happy. Where I have the most problem (both when I was just a regular and now that I'm leading the session) is when instrumentalists attempt to accompany an a capella song. That can REALLY throw a singer off as English (in particular) a capella songs can't really be forced into a time measure straight jacket.

I've been known to throw things at the offender. (When I'm the singer. If I'm not the singer, I try to get the offender's attention somehow -- yeah, usually by throwing something.)

I DO have the gavel in the car, but I seldom have it at the table when I need it. Sigh. Guess I COULD fix that...

Linn

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:16 PM

We once had a bloke who thought that he could "improve" any singer by accompanying with his clumsy guitar playing. His most buttock-clenching trait was to drag the singer to his own preferred pitch with his "persuasive'" strumming. It got even worse when he resorted to his D/G box...

Don't worry if you're coming to Cornwall. He's, er, "no longer active!"

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:42 PM

When I lived in Manchester, a group of enthusiasts used to gather in the side room of my local pub, 'Lloyd's', in Chorlton-Cum-Hardy,to listen to Irish music, including the renowned Traveller piper, Felix Doran.
I wasn't there on this particular occasion, but years later we recorded a story from Wexford Traveller, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, who told of the time Doran was playing his heart out at the session when a drunk staggered in from the other bar, sat down at the upright piano in the corner and began to accompany him loudly (and in a different key and tempo) - somebody walked over and slammed the lid down on his hand.
We've archived the story as 'The Piano-driver's Broken Finger'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: mg
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM

I think people need to speak up and not silently ....have a shet of paper and give to new people saying this is what we prefer...if you prefer something else say so. If you do nt want someone to play or sing along, say so. And don't say we welcome everything and then cringe when they sing today while the blossoms still cling to the vine. Be honest. So f you are trying to preserve a tradition say so. Newcomers will not know unless you tell them. If you love the blue books and started he group to use them as so. People can decide from there..

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:07 PM

It obviously depends (not deep ends) on the club. I get around quite a few singers clubs in North/East Yorkshire. They all have their ways. n one it is hazardous to try to sing unaccompanied as the musicians will tend to join in, and when they are trying to find the key it can be very off-putting.

In our own Vale Radio Folk and Blues Club we are often recording for the show, so joining in the verses would be severely jumped on from a great height. But the choruses? Fine. In fact most of our singers encourage it.

the FAB Club