singaround etiquette

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

In my I suppose limited experience, trying to outloud people tends not to work for me. Turning my own volume down and singing more and more quietly sometimes works, but sometimes it doesn't. One time I was at a session and the other players were shouting loudly at each other while I was singing. I ended up playing the guitar and mouthing the words silently for about half the song. So my approach was pretty ineffective in that instance. But yeah, sometimes people do shut up.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Ged Fox
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 11:39 AM

It would have been more effective to have stopped the guitar and continued singing.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 12:32 PM

I suppose we will never know.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 06:23 PM

Unfortunately , it seems many musicians don't listen to other contributors , and either talk or look at their phones, even in a small circle. I tend to shrug and carry on if I can see anyone listening , but when it comes to open mics I tend to just not go to the worst ones much . Thankfully , at the sing around there are usually some that respect each other !

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 03:36 AM

On the subject of the dreaded phones:-

Three Minute Limit

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 05:43 AM

People talking?
It depends where you are. If the singaround / session is in a dedicated room then they should shut the f*** up when somebody is singing. If it is in a public bar then you put up with it, they came to talk to their mates and have a perfect right to do so.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

'
People often act like it's a terrible thing to threaten another person. But sometimes, threats are necessary. '

Yes we heard about the business with the hand grenade. Whilst I agree that the Childe ballads deserve a measure of respect, in this country we need folk clubs to be covered by the pub's insurance.

At our local folk club, the committee felt that whilst loosening the pin on the grenade, and shouting, 'Belt up you motherf.....rs!' carried risks.
We have taken a leaf from Jim Carrol's memories of The Singers Club of yore. The committee sit at a table in front, with an uzi on the table strictly only to be used if anyone disagrees with us.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:46 AM

I rather agree with Acorn......"background music" is a distraction and extremely annoying. Apparently every documentary and a lot of news articles on TV, require intrusive music played over the commentary. slightly different from the point Joe is making but new parameters are being set and concentration broken.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:53 AM

I also think that the role of the performer is changing, in my youth any contribution to the entertainment of the gathering was appreciated, singers and musicians were respected, regardless of competency.....we are becoming spoiled insensitive brats.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:00 AM

I suppose the real villains are those who commercialised music, turning it from a gift to humanity into simply another commodity.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:46 AM

Guilty as charged, Ake. But I needed to make a living. I knew how to play the guitar. The hours fitted in with me being a carer. Yes my level of competency was deeply resented by the folkerati, but on the other hand, the room seemed and still does seem to light up in anticipation when I walk into a folk club. That's a less and less frequent occurrence, as the great unplugged/acoustic music revival goes on apace.

Doubtless, if I hadn't been desperately in need of the NHS for the care of my wife, I would have decamped to another nation - like most of my contemporaries who couldn't stomach the trad folk agenda - with all its inconsistencies and craziness.

But to be honest, I think the English folk clubs really missed out. It failed to adapt. The kids who had a lot to offer were working class grammar school types - and so many of them ended up playing in Irish bars from St Petersburg, and Oslo to the gulf.

The idea that folk music was something that belonged to tiny communities preferably pre-industrial belongs to that era where Vaughan Williams and Percy Grainger were morris dancing in the garden.

Our generation saw it as a valid artistic movement that offered the possibility of self expression.

Still we'll all be dead soon and it won't matter that we lost the battle and the war. Worse things happened.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:48 AM

PS nice to talk to you again Ake!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Andy7
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:55 AM

It makes me weep, the number of people these days that say, "I cant sing." Just because they can't sing as well as the best popular singers; which in any case is a very narrow version of good singing.

The ubiquitous habit of people covering their ears and exaggeratedly grimacing, if someone in their family or social circle does start to sing in public, certainly doesn't help!

(The same is true of dancing! But that's another topic entirely.)

So in a singaround, which actually appears, by its very name, to encourage everyone to sing, the least we can do is welcome, and try to appreciate, singers that are new/nervous/just not very good.

I was not very good myself, once. And if I'd had any inkling, at that stage, that the other people in a singaround were pulling faces, grinning to each other or looking bored, I'd probably never have gone back.

If the price to be paid is that we occasionally have to sit through a song that isn't sung very well, that's not so very high a price at all!

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

no its not! agreed! we all have to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Taconicus
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 11:46 AM

At my local traditional/folk music association singaround/jam/song circles, the convention is that announcing the key of a song in advance is a signal that everyone is welcome to join in, both playing and singing.

If the singer/performer does not announce what key the piece is in, that's a signal that the performer would rather sing the song without having others join in (because it might throw him off, because he wants to showcase his own performance, or for any other reason).

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 01:48 PM

I have no idea what key I sing my songs in. I suspect that at times there may be a few of them... :-D

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GerryM
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 09:02 PM

I would guess that announcing the key is mostly something people do if they're accompanying themselves on an instrument, rarely done by unaccompanied singers.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 04:58 AM

no ,
however it is a good idea to know what note you start a song on when singing unaccompanied, if your voice happens to be iffy that day and there is a big range you can pitch a note lower., it is all part of trying to improve and take a more professional attitude

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: John C. Bunnell
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 06:40 AM

[deep breath]

This will get to etiquette eventually, but first, the vita:

I'm in the US (born, raised, & still resident in Oregon), and I am in no way a professional musician. However: I grew up in a folk-friendly household, listening to a variety of folk & country music as well as show tunes; my brother played wind instruments in high school (jazz band), Mother played piano, and we always went to the carol-singing services at Christmas. In college, I was the lone wolf at the radio station who did a weekly folk show, dragging a bankers' box full of vinyl back and forth across campus every Sunday and closing every show with the signoff "...and remember, you too can sing along with your radio."

Somewhere between five and ten years after graduating, I came across the "filk" community - science fiction/fantasy's substrata of folk music, a great deal of it at that time consisting of alternative lyrics written to a great variety of folk (and folk-rock, and musical-theater, and other) tunes. One could find a filk circle at most medium to large SF fan conventions, and there were in my area house-filks on a regular basis. And - best of all, from my perspective - there was an explicit and clearly articulated principle that everyone was welcome in a filk circle absolutely irrespective of musical skill or talent. And that explicitly meant "welcome to perform", not just to be part of a group sing.

That principle is articulated a little less strongly now than it was some decades ago (in part because the community has both evolved and diversified, but that's a whole other thread), but it is still very much a core component of the filk world. There were live (albeit masked) song circles at the convention I attended last weekend - one in what we call "bardic" mode, in which everyone gets a turn, in order, and can either perform or choose someone else and request a song; the other in "chaos", in which performers are allowed to jump in one after another more or less at will (but it's still one song at a time, as opposed to a jam session).

Now per above, I am in no way a trained musician; I don't read music, I don't play an instrument, and while I can usually sing approximately on *a* key, I am completely unable to tell you what that key is at any given moment. What I can do - and have been doing for the aforementioned several decades, thanks to the filk community - is write lyrics and in most cases match them to existing tunes (some of which are likely familiar to most of this gallery, while others probably won't be).

I am welcome, and know I will be welcomed, as both a listener and performer in any filk circle or housefilk or Zoom filk event I might find myself able to attend. I do not sing along on verses during circles unless explicitly invited, I only sing along on choruses when I know them well enough, and I will happily acknowledge my sources whenever I've borrowed a tune (especially since many of the lyrics I write are totally unrelated to those of the source song, and thereby not recognizable as parody in the usual sense).

I've now read this thread all the way back (The Sandman's comment having caught my eye). And I must say that based on that reading, I am now very uncertain of what my welcome would be should I happen to perform in either a Mudcat "singaround" (a word I hadn't encountered before arriving here) or its live equivalent anywhere in the UK. And that makes me very sad.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 11:56 AM

What specifically makes you think you might be unwelcome?

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 12:27 PM

for the record the sandman does not live in the uk or run any singarounds in the uk, neither does he run mudcat singarounds.
I never make negative comments on the mudcat singarounds, which are run by joe offer.
my advice about taking a note quote
however it is a good idea to know what note you start a song on when singing unaccompanied, if your voice happens to be iffy that day and there is a big range you can pitch a note lower., it is all part of trying to improve and take a more professional attitude.
my comment is about trying to improve performance and avoid embarrassing oneself and requires very very little formal musical training, IT WAS SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO OCCASIONS WHEN A SINGERS VOICE MIGHT BE IFFY DUE TO A COLD ETC.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 12:38 PM

much as i would like to have the powers of the almighty, i am aware of my limitations , i have no control over any singarounds in the UK, NEITHER DO I HAVE ANY CONTROLS OVER MUDCAT SINGAROUNDS.
Joe Offer hosts mudcat singarounds and is a very welcoming and friendly host.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 01:12 PM

It's up to the singer. Some singers are able to rely simply on a sense of their own vocal range to pitch the song correctly. Some people aren't very good at this, and would benefit from using pitch-pipes or an instrument to get their note, while others do this habitually. It's certainly wise, as Sandman suggests, to be aware of the state of your voice, and be prepared to sing in a different key to compensate for an off day, or for the acoustics of the room. If you are not very sure of your vocal range then it would certainly help to know your usual key and to have a reference note. Sandman's advice is sound, although many singers may be able to do this without thinking in terms of named keys.   

However to infer from this that everyone in a UK singaround knows what key they sing in for every song, and can pitch it perfectly, would be very wrong. I often don't know the key even when I am accompanying myself on an instrument - all I need to know is where to put the capo.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

i suggested taking a note ,nothing more, no mention of knowing what key John Bunnell feels sad, what does he feel sad about exactly.
I feel sad, that i make a constructive comment and i get a reaction from john Bunnell, A reaction which suggest that i control singarounds all over the uk[ i do not live there, thankfully] that i control the singaround on Mudcat
I categoricaaly wish to state that i do not control the singaround on mudcat

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 02:25 PM

I’m with Sandman on this. It does help to know roughly what key you sing a certain song in, or its start note - even if you don’t play an instrument or read music. If you have a songbook or crib sheet handy (let’s not go down that avenue again, please!) you can mark it in, then next time you do the same song, just ask someone to give you the key or start note. Doesn’t matter if today you’re better on Ab or Bb if you’ve marked as A and are singing unaccompanied, but at least you’ll be in the right area.
And how many times have you seen an unaccompanied singer start a song and then stop? “Oh that was too high/low!” then start again in exactly the same key?

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GerryM
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 06:43 PM

"I am now very uncertain of what my welcome would be should I happen to perform in either a Mudcat "singaround" (a word I hadn't encountered before arriving here) or its live equivalent anywhere in the UK."

Well, there's one way to be certain about what your welcome would be, should you join us at the Mudcat singaround, and that's to join us, and see. I've been to over 70 of them, and I have never found them to be anything other than welcoming. [And I'm not sure whether the UK reference was linked to the Mudcat singaround, but that singaround is hosted in California, and USians and UKians make up the largest cohorts of participants.]

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 04:15 AM

I agree it's important to know what note to start on, but that doesn't mean you need to to know its name. Many experienced singers have enough sense of their own vocal range to be able to internalise this and pitch a song correctly. Besides, many folk songs don't have a challenging range so most singers should be able to cope even if they are slightly out.

As Tattie Bogle says, some singers will start in the wrong key and have to stop and start again. Those singers would certainly benefit from using a reference note to help them pitch it correctly. However don't overlook all those singers who are able to pitch it correctly.

It depends on how you think about music. Not everyone has a musical education and many don't think in terms of keys and named notes. I learned to play several instruments by ear well enough to perform semi-professionally. I may know the key (diatonic instruments are limited that way) but I usually don't know the name of the note associated with a button or fret. I think of chords as finger patterns rather than as notes. Ask me to play an F# and I'll have to work up the scale until I get to it, but when I'm playing a tune I know where to find the sound that is called F#. I'm even less conscious of key when I'm singing unaccompanied, but I know where to pitch a song to suit my voice, and I'm aware of those songs with unexpected ranges which may need to be pitched more carefully and which may need a reference note.

The point I am trying to make, somewhat laboriously, is that whilst Sandman's advice is sound, people should not be intimidated into thinking they must understand keys and notes in order to sing.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Ged Fox
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 10:45 AM

Singing unaccompanied I generally have no idea what key I am singing in. I usually run the tune through in my head to make sure I can reach the highest note, sometimes finding out too late that I was over-optimistic. Someone once pointed out that I was singing in tune with the freezer that was humming away in the corner.

I occasionally play Northumbrian smallpipes. Guitarists who pluck strings as they try to work out what key I'm playing are told, quite truthfully, that it's in F-off.

Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 10:53 AM

I can't not sing along, if I know the song. I hope that is never rude (I do sing *along*- not out of key, not harmony).