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BS: I Love this Idea

Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 03:44 PM
keberoxu 13 Mar 16 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 13 Mar 16 - 04:04 PM
Janie 13 Mar 16 - 04:32 PM
Ebbie 13 Mar 16 - 04:34 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 04:39 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 05:26 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 16 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 16 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 16 - 06:42 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 16 - 07:31 PM
olddude 13 Mar 16 - 08:32 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 16 - 08:51 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 16 - 09:27 PM
Amos 13 Mar 16 - 09:55 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 16 - 11:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 16 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 06:31 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 16 - 07:13 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Mar 16 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 16 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Mar 16 - 09:48 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 16 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Mar 16 - 01:03 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 01:29 PM
keberoxu 14 Mar 16 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Mar 16 - 02:17 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 14 Mar 16 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 14 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 06:26 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 06:28 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 16 - 06:33 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 07:20 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 16 - 08:26 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 16 - 11:02 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 16 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 16 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Dave 15 Mar 16 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Mar 16 - 03:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 16 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 16 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Dave 15 Mar 16 - 07:09 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Mar 16 - 07:46 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 16 - 09:45 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 16 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 16 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 16 - 11:56 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 12:22 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 16 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 16 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Musket 15 Mar 16 - 01:54 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 02:07 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 16 - 02:55 PM
keberoxu 15 Mar 16 - 03:06 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 16 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 16 - 08:25 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 16 - 08:55 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 16 - 09:01 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 16 - 09:23 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 16 - 09:56 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 16 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Mar 16 - 02:56 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Mar 16 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 16 - 03:49 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Mar 16 - 03:53 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Mar 16 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Mar 16 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 09:48 AM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 09:59 AM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 10:36 AM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 11:23 AM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 01:05 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 01:08 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 01:15 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 02:04 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 04:11 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 06:45 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 07:06 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 16 - 07:22 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 16 - 07:43 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 16 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Musket 17 Mar 16 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 16 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Mar 16 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 16 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Mar 16 - 05:17 AM
Donuel 17 Mar 16 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 16 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Mar 16 - 11:27 AM
Donuel 17 Mar 16 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 16 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Musket 17 Mar 16 - 01:29 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 16 - 03:49 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 16 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Musket 18 Mar 16 - 02:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 16 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 16 - 03:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 16 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Mar 16 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 16 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Mar 16 - 05:11 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 16 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 16 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 16 - 09:52 AM
Greg F. 18 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Mar 16 - 11:41 AM
keberoxu 18 Mar 16 - 12:29 PM
Donuel 18 Mar 16 - 01:24 PM
Donuel 18 Mar 16 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Avro Arrow 18 Mar 16 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 16 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Mar 16 - 06:13 PM
Donuel 18 Mar 16 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 16 - 07:02 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 16 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Mar 16 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Mar 16 - 01:59 AM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 16 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Mar 16 - 02:50 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 08:20 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 02:46 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Mar 16 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 16 - 05:48 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 16 - 06:24 PM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 06:47 PM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Mar 16 - 07:49 PM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 10:26 PM
Donuel 19 Mar 16 - 10:58 PM
Joe Offer 20 Mar 16 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Mar 16 - 03:01 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 16 - 06:06 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 16 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Mar 16 - 08:24 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 16 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 16 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM
Donuel 20 Mar 16 - 12:24 PM
Penny S. 20 Mar 16 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 16 - 12:55 PM
Donuel 20 Mar 16 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 16 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 20 Mar 16 - 03:33 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 20 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Mar 16 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 16 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Mar 16 - 11:45 PM
GUEST,Musket 21 Mar 16 - 02:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 16 - 03:49 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 16 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 16 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 16 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 16 - 12:52 PM
Donuel 21 Mar 16 - 01:46 PM
Donuel 21 Mar 16 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 16 - 07:57 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 16 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Mar 16 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 16 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Mar 16 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 16 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 06:53 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 16 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 16 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 07:50 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 11:31 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 16 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 01:30 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 16 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 16 - 02:48 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Mar 16 - 03:25 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 16 - 05:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 16 - 04:34 AM
Donuel 23 Mar 16 - 08:21 AM
Donuel 23 Mar 16 - 09:02 AM
Donuel 23 Mar 16 - 10:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 16 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Mar 16 - 12:25 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 16 - 04:32 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 16 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 16 - 09:51 PM
Musket 24 Mar 16 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 16 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 16 - 05:24 AM
Musket 24 Mar 16 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 16 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 24 Mar 16 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 16 - 08:42 AM
Musket 24 Mar 16 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 24 Mar 16 - 09:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Mar 16 - 11:54 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 16 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 16 - 01:50 PM
Musket 24 Mar 16 - 01:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Mar 16 - 02:07 PM
Donuel 24 Mar 16 - 03:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Mar 16 - 04:15 PM
Donuel 24 Mar 16 - 06:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 16 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 16 - 02:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Mar 16 - 03:09 AM
Musket 25 Mar 16 - 03:24 AM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 04:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Mar 16 - 05:07 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 16 - 05:33 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 16 - 07:15 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 08:53 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 16 - 09:47 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Mar 16 - 11:23 PM
Donuel 25 Mar 16 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Mar 16 - 12:25 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Mar 16 - 02:39 AM
keberoxu 26 Mar 16 - 05:22 PM

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Subject: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 03:44 PM

http://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444899/pri-studio-360

Does beauty and reward drive evolution?

Do cultures create their own evolution beyond survival of the fittest
but survival of more beauty and art?



I explore ideas from npr broadcasts from 360.org. to TED talks and more.

Sometimes being human blinds us to the actual spectrum of communication

One of my experiences I never talk about is communication with animals.

A cat owner knows the slow closing of ones eyes to reassure the trust of a cat. Dog lovers now many other means of communication.

I have found ways of sharing comfortable moments with storks in the wild, deer, even Dolphins and snakes. People who dismiss these claims haven't learned to set their humanness aside.


If you have been introduced to ideas that inspire a second look but

are still on the fringe in this day and age you could list them here

without judgement, except for our resident comedians


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 03:54 PM

Oh, dear. This brings to mind the plumage of male birds so as to get the attention of the females...says more about me than it does about the subject. Pretty feathers though.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 04:04 PM

Presumably, evolution , in the sense of how things work out. There seems to be a number of vids crop up on Facebook of animal and human interaction. If we need to put aside our humanness , I wonder if they are putting aside their beastiness to interact with us !


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Janie
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 04:32 PM

What we put aside is our mistaken belief that we are not part of the animal kingdom, and therefore beasties ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 04:34 PM

"If we need to put aside our humanness , I wonder if they are putting aside their beastiness to interact with us !" Pete, 7 Seven Stars

I think there is little doubt of that. I suspect that some animals spend a good share of their lives trying to figure out how to get to our level. I further suspect that their aim has to be downward rather than upward.

Thanks, Donuel. This is an interesting idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 04:39 PM

That sounds likely Pete.

Another idea;

Now that most people have a camera available everywhere, where are the remarkable ufos?   Where are the multiple perspective photos?
By Pete's deduction perspective the ufos would know of their mass detection and avoid this deliberately.
It is easier to assume the phenomena is not as we may have thought.
Either the universe has expanded to non visitation distances or they did not exist at all which is what I SAID 35 YEARS AGO as a person on a UFU radio panel.

I'm hoping I am wrong.

If there is a cost risk decision to be made by aliens we may be decidedly too dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 05:26 PM

The esthetic philosophers who see cross over consciousness have much to offer.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 05:39 PM

The Hopi religious idea to walk in beauty comes to mind.

Truth beauty beauty truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 06:30 PM

Evolution doesn't involve reward at all, as it's blind. As for beauty, my take on the role of evolution is that it has proceeded for four billion years (a terrifying fact not understood at all by people of religion) from the very origin of life to the complexity and diversity of life on earth that we're privileged to be a part of. From that diversity comes the beauty, and the way I see beauty is that it is the natural product, the synergy if you like, of form and function. Look at a flower close up. You can either ditch your mighty intellect and see God, or you can marvel at the billions of years of evolution that have not only made that flower so perfectly fit for purpose but have also made it look so aesthetically pleasing that the greatest artists that have ever lived can hardly do it justice in spite of its simplicity. A curious, wide-eyed seven-year-old sees it more perfectly, more unaffectedly, than even a Michelangelo or a Constable, and those blokes would, I'm creating, have agreed with me there. That's what I call beauty. And, by the way, you can't do both. They are mutually exclusive, despite the pleadings of the softly-softly religious.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 06:34 PM

Thank you, oh so helpful autocorrect. "I'm creating" was meant to be "I'm certain."


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 06:42 PM

God's Auto correct


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 07:14 PM

DNA has an auto correct

The internet would not work without a code auto correct.

Whether or not it belongs to God is up to you.

Beauty is probably a self determining aspect of evolution in a stable environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 07:31 PM

You look at a living thing, or a small part of a living thing, a flower for example, and you think you see an intrinsic beauty in its form. But you may be wrong. You need to look deeper, to use your intellect, to tie in that surface beauty with the function of the part. You then develop a depth of appreciation of true beauty that is far deeper, far more multifaceted and far more satisfying. Appreciation of beauty can come straight away from your first confrontation with the beautiful object in front of you, but to go deeper you then have to take it from there, using your knowledge, your intellect and your experience, which, hopefully, will have been honed. Using your knowledge, intellect and experience is a skill that can only come from education, and certainly not the kind of "education" that insists on Godly interventions in everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: olddude
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 08:32 PM

Women all get prettier at closing time


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 08:51 PM

I look at a flower and I know what I see, including that its color is different for the bee which is who the flower wants to please most for reproduction.

The bee sees in a higher blue ultra violet spectrum than I do.

Next the most pleasing aroma is an ability that the flower needs for even more rewarding qualities appreciated by more than just bees.

For reasons the flower does not understand it will self select evolutionary changes based on the success of the flower based upon its habitat. This is a form of species differentiation.

Flower consciousness may effect its own evolution but not in the way we can think about this. Consciousness is from the inside out and the outside in. Not from the God perspective in.



(rewording of Steve's post from my perspective.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 09:27 PM

The flower isn't trying to please. It's ruthlessly expending energy on producing colour pigments and scents, both of which cost the plant dearly In terms of energy and materials, in order to effect successful sexual reproduction. The flower itself is but a small component of the plant body. Talking of flowers effecting evolution is rather like saying that testicles do it too. They probably don't have as much fun as we do, but that hasn't stopped them from doing it even after hundreds of millions of years.

Last week I bought a cheap UV torch. It's opened up a whole world of observation. I point it at flowers and lichens on the wall. Stunning. "Chisels men's hands to magnify..."


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 09:55 PM

The perception of beauty (and other aesthetics) is a universal gift tendered among units of consciousness (high or low) whether human or otherwise engaged. I suspect there are things about humans that cetaceans find beautiful, and perhaps bees may seem beautiful to flowers, or big dogs to little dogs or even, in a frisson-inducing sort fo way, to possums.

A lot of this is intuitive, since the ordinary frameworks of human beauty gifting don't quite work for other organisms. But outside of that framework, it is still quite the commodity exchange.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 11:25 PM

Steve Shaw says: ...As for beauty, my take on the role of evolution is that it has proceeded for four billion years (a terrifying fact not understood at all by people of religion) from the very origin of life to the complexity and diversity of life on earth that we're privileged to be a part of. From that diversity comes the beauty, and the way I see beauty is that it is the natural product, the synergy if you like, of form and function. Look at a flower close up. You can either ditch your mighty intellect and see God, or you can marvel at the billions of years of evolution that have not only made that flower so perfectly fit for purpose but have also made it look so aesthetically pleasing that the greatest artists that have ever lived can hardly do it justice in spite of its simplicity. A curious, wide-eyed seven-year-old sees it more perfectly, more unaffectedly, than even a Michelangelo or a Constable, and those blokes would, I'm creating, have agreed with me there. That's what I call beauty. And, by the way, you can't do both. They are mutually exclusive, despite the pleadings of the softly-softly religious.

Can't quite figure out how it's impossible to see both God and the marvels of evolution. It seems to me that if we are able to look at something from a variety of perspectives, including the perspective of various schools of philosophic and religious thought, that our appreciation should be broader.

If we rule out any school of thought, we limit our perspective.

I also can't figure out why it might be that people of religion cannot appreciate evolution, for however long it has gone on.

And what things are mutually exclusive?

And who are these "softly-softly religious"? I take it that Mr. Shaw posits that the only true religion is fundamentalism, since he cannot accept the idea that religious people may be every bit as intellectually competent as he believes himself to be.

There's an interesting parallel between Mr. Shaw's absolutism, and that of religious fundamentalists. Both think that their own perspective is the only one that can possibly be valid. Rather limited and narcissistic, dontchathink?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 05:50 AM

Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 06:31 AM

Well, Joe, you're the man who sees God in the stars. You may claim that you know the science of stars as well as the finest astrophysicist, and you may well do for all I know. But your in-depth knowledge should teach you that the stars, wondrous and beyond human scale that they are, are still functioning parts of the universe, no more or no less than that pile of mud at the roadside or the stuff you flush down the lavvy. You don't look at a turd, I presume, and claim to see God. If not, though, given your approach, why not?

The only truth you will find is the truth that can come from genuine scientific endeavour. Sneaking an impossible God into any explanation of just about anything is dereliction of intellect. That's what limits you and what narrows your thinking. And I must have told you at least a million times, or twenty, or maybe about eight, that trying to sneak God into evolution means two things: you don't understand what evolution is, and you are ignorantly trying to turn the theory on its head.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 07:13 AM

Steve
I see a bit of ultra violet light because of my blue eyes and ancestry.
Folks like me were used to spot the ultra violet signals from German subs. Have you noticed that flowers have entirely different markings and patterns in the ultra violet range?

Joe,
perhaps you cold compromise and modify your God rhetoric into one of Gaia. Gaia refers to an interconnectedness more complex than we can imagine and a memory that is possibly older than 4 billion years.

Amos
Perhaps somewhere in the DNA of a flowering plant is the gene that remembers the benefits of an insect long extinct that has the memory for adaptation if ever needed again. Perhaps even the lack of aesthetics is an adaptation for survival. Take for example the arachnids. Spiders are life forms a mother could love but are more intimidating to human consciousness than most lifeforms.
Intuitive or subjective knowledge may never be proven or objectified by its very nature, which should be a comfort to religionists, but it is a quantum uncertainness that is part of the fabric of reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 09:18 AM

Arachnids have been around for at least 420 million years and are one of the most diverse orders of living things. I've trained myself to ditch the anthropocentric view of what constitutes aesthetics when it comes to spiders and start from scratch. As most UK spiders are harmless, there's little risk in getting upclose and personal with them, with a hand lens for example, or by zooming in on them with your camera on the macro setting. They are actually extremely beautiful, especially when you consider that synergy of form and function I mentioned. Observing their predatory and self-defence tactics is a real treat, and what could be more aesthetically pleasing than the backlit dew-laced web of an orb-web spider on a sunny autumn morning?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 09:32 AM

I suppose if you take god to mean "a convenient word to describe our puzzlement at what we don't see the reason for," then the wonders of the universe are truly, as you say, God.

The snag is, rather than a word to fill in the gaps in human knowledge, your God construct is developed into a sentient being that thinks and makes arbitrary decisions. That alone disassociates him with evolution.

That's before we note that evolution is an observable, measurable set of conclusions to a working hypothesis whereas religion is whatever suits your purpose for it to be.

Me? I couldn't ascribe wonders of the universe or dog shit to a man made convenience but others can. No matter, evolution suggests you or your descendants may soon.

Want job security? Train as a civil celebrant. Growing market.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 09:40 AM


I suppose if you take god to mean "a convenient word to describe our puzzlement at what we don't see the reason for," then the wonders of the universe are truly, as you say, God.


I suppose so.
The snag is that no-one here does that.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 09:48 AM

No one?

If? Did you read the if? I put it so Christians could feel they are part of the discussion.

I think you'll find real Christians have a habit of saying "God did it." Ditto most religions.

You really haven't thought this religion thing through, have you Keith?
😹😹😴

Thou shalt not comprehend (mis trans)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 10:34 AM

Anyone who thinks that God created anything at all is inserting him rudely into a place that contravenes science. In effect you're saying that you're so uncertain about science that a far more outlandish explanation for everything is more likely. Or, in extreme cases, certain (see pete). It's a denial of reason and a scuppering of intellect. You see God as a better explanation for the existence of everything than the one that science provides. And it really is either-or, regardless of Joe's protests. There has never been the slightest hint, looking at the inexorable progress of science over millennia, that there is any natural phenomenon that can't eventually yield to scientific explanation, given sufficient time and the exponential continuation of that progress. The only phenomena that can never yield to science are the fake ones placed beyond science by religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 11:22 AM

In effect you're saying that you're so uncertain about science that a far more outlandish explanation for everything is more likely.

No we are not.
Most Western Christians do not believe in creation as a magic trick.
We accept evolution and cosmology.
A minority, like Pete, also know all about evolution and cosmology, but are not convinced by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 01:03 PM

"We"

"Western"

"Cosmology"

Wonderful words that just trip out of your keyboard.

Calling pete a "minority" isn't exactly a "Christian" gesture either.😹 Considering churches are shutting at fast rate and more people go to car boot sales on a Sunday than church, I'd be careful about use of the word "minority" if I were you.

I slipped in the word "cosmology" there because a recent Sky at Night repeated Carl Sagan showing a photo of a blue speck, taken from Voyager, from the orbit of Saturn that was earth, and the sum total of everything we boast of as being special, put into real perspective.

No. Reality is far more wondrous than any constraining religious nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 01:29 PM

I'm afraid that saying you don't believe in creation as a magic trick goes no way at all to reconciling a God who made everything (see mainstream texts such as catechisms) with evolution. You either hold with the science or you believe in God the creator. They are entirely different, incompatible explanations for how we got here. Try to combine them and the science falls. Unless you really want to ditch reason and your intellect, I suggest you look at which one has more evidence going for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 01:48 PM

....annnnnd the usual suspects have hijacked the thread. It was sweet while it lasted, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 02:17 PM

This from Donuel further up the thread:

"Now that most people have a camera available everywhere, where are the remarkable ufos? ...

Either the universe has expanded to non visitation distances or they did not exist at all ...

I'm hoping I am wrong.

If there is a cost risk decision to be made by aliens we may be decidedly too dangerous."

Thinking about 'UFOs' and aliens recently, this occurred to me:

Although some of us may think we're 'Masters of the Universe' we actually inhabit an infinitesimally tiny bubble in space-time. Only at this end of the time dimension have we even begun to understand our place on this planet and the wider Universe, to develop the technology to communicate via radio waves and other electromagnetic media, leave this planet and explore the Solar system etc., etc. Interstellar travel may or may not be possible (it appears to be impossible at this point in history) but, the way things are going, we may not have enough time to develop it even if it is possible. We're destroying the biosphere, contained within the spatial dimensions of the 'bubble', at a ferocious rate of knots. We've probably only got a handful of generations to go before we render ourselves extinct.
Now what if technological 'civilisations' are rare (certainly, solar systems like ours appear to be rare) and only crop up every few million years, develop sophisticated science and technologies at the very ends of their time dimensions, destroy their biospheres and become extinct? Perhaps a technological civilisation existed around 50 million years ago in our part of the Galaxy and another one won't be along for another 20 million years. If that were the case, we'd probably never know about them - especially if they never had time to develop interstellar travel.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 02:23 PM

Well, evolution is still to the fore in the thread. We can still argue about beauty if you like! To paraphrase Richard Dawkins, billions of years of evolution have resulted in such complexity, diversity and beauty that, in a certain kind of vulnerable mind, there is the illusion of design. Whilst there are strong religious vibes on this board, it's inevitable that the conflict between science and faith will be argued about. I don't know whether I'm one of your susoects, but I've posted in this thread about evolution, the need for evidence and beauty, several times, and I've done without insulting anyone. How's that?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 02:33 PM

well, sometimes I have trouble getting out of my own way too, if I'm honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM

Regarding aliens.

Either they do exist or we are the only planet in the universe with sentient beings. It has to be one or the other. Either scenario is fascinating....

The idea of missing each other's civilisations has interesting precedents in deep sea lava cones where biospheres exist in isolation until the lava stops flowing.

Regarding God vs normal people. Have a word with the moderators. Every thread set up to point and laugh at our resident brethren gets deleted. If the moderators left us alone to play, this wouldn't happen.

Anyway, I too was talking about evolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 06:26 PM

"Can't quite figure out how it's impossible to see both God and the marvels of evolution."

Well you can do if you like, but what you can't do is see God IN the marvels of evolution. If you try to do that, evolutionary theory collapses about your ears. Integral to evolutionary theory is that there can have been no kick-start, no underlying driving force, no directional impetus and no design. As for seeing God, I'm interested in seeing your evidence for that.

"It seems to me that if we are able to look at something from a variety of perspectives, including the perspective of various schools of philosophic and religious thought, that our appreciation should be broader."

Quite so, but if one of those perspectives is entirely false to begin with your appreciation will be skewed and made narrower. Use of intellect comes in choosing your perspectives carefully.

"If we rule out any school of thought, we limit our perspective."

By ruling out false schools of thought, we broaden out our perspective. That's what we call science.

"I also can't figure out why it might be that people of religion cannot appreciate evolution, for however long it has gone on."

You can, but it requires you to entirely sideline God for the duration of your appreciation if you're to understand evolution as well as admiring its products.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 06:28 PM

And now, on this chilly evening, I'm taking my new UV torch out for a stroll in the garden.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 06:33 PM

Speaking of god and ufo's, Mitt Romney is still doing his anti campaign tour. Mormons are still unsure who they want for Prez.

I never really associated god with creation.

If I think of space I think of space time gravity.

If I think of the god concept I think of creation and destruction along the lines of Shiva.

The universe is thick with amino acids. Finding a habitat for amino acids to form proteins is just a numbers game. Space RNA is not impossible in an asteroid left behind from the destruction of a civilization so remarkable all our imaginations put together could not believe how beautiful.
I think of the god concept first as a destroyer then some creation from other places and times. Entropy is the game at this time in the Universe.


Life arising in an elderly universe might arise much more quickly with all the former life debris scattered widely through the universe.
Pan Spermia may actually become more powerful as time goes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM

Why no ufo's?
Maybe they got the e mail from Steve Jobs that the I phone monitor photo apps are now available for upload, so visitation is no longer needed for the planet Earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 07:20 PM

It's hard to see how life debris in an entropic universe could really do anything useful (except for hugely exciting our imaginations if we ever found it), considering the light years of travel between suitably benign environments and the harsh realities of eons spent in space which would seem to be inimical to delicate organic molecules. It would be nice to have the evidence but much too fanciful an idea that it could seed life all over again. I've never bought into that notion, though who knows. From Mars, maybe, just about... On the other hand, it's a good bet that the conditions under which life may have originated on earth (which I tend to think was the case) are replicated billions of times over in the universe. Now I do like that idea. I also wouldn't mind betting that life elsewhere would almost certainly be carbon-based and dependent on liquid water, and would be subject to some form of evolution by natural selection. It's worked so well on Planet Earth that, well, can you really think of a better plan?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 08:26 PM

Was there ever a single even remotely convincing photo of a UFO? Or a ghost? Or the Loch Ness Monster? I don't think so. Back to that pesky evidence thing again. Set the bar high, let's say scientifically high, and, sadly, we haven't got any for UFOs, ghosts or the monster.




Or God.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 11:02 PM

All I said was that it is not impossible. Galaxies used to be much smaller which is good for the pan spermia proposition.

As a hypnotist and science enthusiast I used to visit Alan Hynek, astrophysicist, professor at Northwestern, ufo researcher and stooge for Project Blue Book at his Evansville home.

You are asking the right person about photographic evidence and experiential evidence. I did ufo radio shows out of Rochester NY as the skeptic who demanded extraordinary evidence. I interviewed or hypnotized hundreds of self proclaimed ufo witnesses for a local interest group etc etc.

'Remotely convincing' is a very low standard so I would say yes to that. The detailed Swiss photos; fake. Gulf Breeze; fake, Hudson valley; not fake but no detail. etc.

What is real are a scant few videos and film in NASA archives. Private photos from airline passengers are real but blurred beyond recognition

Back to Alan Hynek, he never saw a ufo.

I have seen a fireball, colorful comet, lunar impact backlit by eclipse and a gold colored mars at its closest orbit for 30,000 years.

But I have never in real time both heard and seen a ufo at the same time.

But that wasn't really your point was it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 16 - 11:26 PM

1950 photos over DC are real and so are the Dropa photos.
Moon Pidgeon video is real but people want to see a conventional vehicle like a saucer instead of phenomena that we do not understand.

The Belgian flap is something for you to contemplate.

and lastly

The God photo at Fatima is real but it is a sunset.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:16 AM

Why is it now automatically assumed that "UFOs" (i.e. vague blurs in various photos and videos and questionable 'witness' statements) are alien visitors. Surely, there must be other possibilities?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:32 AM

"All I said was that it is not impossible. Galaxies used to be much smaller which is good for the pan spermia proposition."

Or larger. Depending upon whether your subscribe to hierarchical or monolithic collapse models of galaxy formation.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:48 AM

Either way, galaxies haven't exactly been at the "swing a cat" level of proximity whilst ever they have been individual galactic clusters.

All this alien talk does need a slight grammatical correction. When you look up at the sky, try saying "I wonder if aliens were living there?" rather than "are."

(Note to self. Must inform Devon and Cornwall Police that the elderly gentleman wandering round back gardens with a coloured torch is mostly harmless.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 04:03 AM

Steve,
You either hold with the science or you believe in God the creator.

Most Christians have no problem reconciling the two.
The problem is entirely with you!

Is your case that Christians must not believe in evolution and cosmology?
Sorry but we do, just like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 06:41 AM

I think you'll find, KAoH, that it's that word "believe" that is the sticking point. Followers of religion choose to "believe" (in often preposterous things) whilst scientists are, or are not, convinced by evidence.

As I've often said to Pete, religious faith is the fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for the existence of which there's no evidence - the very antithesis of science. That's why the two can't be reconciled.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 07:09 AM

On the contrary Musket, we see galaxies in very close proximity, we see them merging, we se them stripping bits off each other due to tidal forces, we see them stripping gas out of each other, we see them accreting gas from the spaces between them. But the spaces between the stars are vast compared with the sizes of the stars themselves (as you can see by looking up, apart from the sun we can resolve no star except by combining the signals from telescopes as an interferometer). So two galaxies can pass right through each other and no stars will hit. They will slow each other down though due to dynamical friction.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 07:11 AM

Back down to our evolving Earth life forms.

Can the individual effect evolution independent of environmental changes?

The answer is yes.

We can turn on old genes in storage that have not been used in millennia.

We can change our chemical programing from our exogenetic ability in one short lifetime from a source directly outside our DNA.

Deliberately or not we can alter DNA WITH A VIRUS "SMOGGLER".


So when Steve asks what does our imagination see as a way of spreading life through the universe I would have to say a simple RNA virus would do the trick.

That little speck of inanimate life that is both dead and not dead.

If we ever look close enough to find microscopic space virus' we will find the near microscopic mustard seed that can grow into a mighty life process.

At any place in time it would seem you do not need intact DNA for life.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 07:46 AM

On the contrary Dave. Even when the Milky Way and Andromeda have the eventual waltz their trajectories suggest, my cat swinging test still holds. And that was in respect of any idea of panspermia. Galaxies within a cluster, stars within a galaxy, planets within a star system.... It's only scale that differs. Galaxies passing through each other are still component far enough apart for the panspermia idea to be effectively dismissed.

Keith is as ever confusing believing with belief. I keep telling him this religion lark is too complicated for him. Stick to crosswords.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 09:45 AM

"Most Christians have no problem reconciling the two.
The problem is entirely with you!"

Then they're wrong. There is no place in science for religious belief or any other kind of belief. All scientific knowledge is predicated on evidence, not belief. And in order to espouse religious belief you have to suspend science. A creator, or a driver of evolution, can't be subjected to scientific scrutiny. That problem is entirely with you, because you put him there, not me.

"Is your case that Christians must not believe in evolution and cosmology?
Sorry but we do, just like you."

Scientists don't "believe" in evolution. They amass and assess evidence according to scientific principles. Belief means acceptance without evidence. We don't do that. And I haven't a clue what cosmology has to do with whatever point you're trying to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 09:58 AM

Have you ever experienced infinity? It is remarkable that you can reach a destination even when it is just short of infinity.
I don't expect someone else to understand.




   I once saw two semi transparent 10 centimeter spheres pass through solid matter twice. I touched one at its outermost nebulous surface.

I could call it a ufo but it was not a solid object.
Of course there is no solid object on Earth .
Yu would have to go to a black hole, magnatar or neutron star to have a fairly solid object.

This is when my interest in cosmology began.
I had a poor frame of reference but there was an associated time distortion along with the spheres phenomena.

By touching it I was able to rule out ball lightening but I remain open for aan explanation of this one off event.

It was clear to me it did not interact with matter in any way I am familiar.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 10:09 AM

Shimrod,
That's why the two can't be reconciled.

Christians can and do reconcile them. It seems to be just non-Christians who are unable to accept that fact.
Consider scientists who also have faith, e.g Sarah Salviander.

Steve,
Then they're wrong.

All of us!
Perhaps you are wrong about us.

There is no place in science for religious belief or any other kind of belief.

Of course not.
There is science and there is religion.

And I haven't a clue what cosmology has to do with whatever point you're trying to make.

I am referring to the Scientific explanation for the evolution of the universe/universes.
Why would I dispute that knowledge any more than you do?
We are capable of rational thought just like you are!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 11:39 AM

"Christians can and do reconcile them. It seems to be just non-Christians who are unable to accept that fact."

As a non-Christian I can categorically state that I am unable to accept that "fact". Then again, I do not really care if Christians choose to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden - just as long as they don't expect me to believe the silly things that they choose to believe.

Of course you chose to ignore what I - and Steve - wrote about the crucial difference between (blind and wilful) 'belief' and understanding based on evidence. You also ignored my attempt at a definition of 'faith'. Here it is again: " ... religious faith is the fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for the existence of which there's no evidence - the very antithesis of science. AND THAT'S WHY THE TWO CAN'T BE RECONCILED!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 11:56 AM

Shimrod,
"AND THAT'S WHY THE TWO CAN'T BE RECONCILED!!!"

BUT WE DO!!!!!!

Of course you chose to ignore what I - and Steve - wrote about the crucial difference between (blind and wilful) 'belief' and understanding based on evidence.

I do not ignore it.
I agree with it, but religion is not science.
Science requires evidence, but religion does not.
I know the evidence for evolution and for the theories of cosmology, and accept it.
I am also a Christian.
Why do you have a problem with that when we do not?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 12:22 PM

Who is the most religious of all you here??

Ok then it is you who I am talking to.

You have DNA in you right now, right?

The DNA in you has been passed down from your ancestors?

Well then what if I tell you a basic fact, woud you deny it no matter what?

THEN HERE YOU ARE, HALF OF THE DNA THAT IS INSIDE YOU IS NOT YOU.

That's right half of the DNA in you is composed of Trans posons which insert themselves into your DNA not from your ancestors but from all around you.

THAT MEANS THAT YOUR ANCESTORS ABSORBED TRANS POSONS of their own and passed them down to you.

Half of you is alien DNA.

Did it come from Earth?

And where is the Earth? In space?

Yes you have alien DNA inside you, how does that make you feel.

Trans posons arbitrarily enters you and becomes you.

Its not all bad like the walking dead or cancer.

Still half of your trans poson DNA is like the dark matter of the universe.

It is possible that it came from Earth and beyond.

Not knowing or being silent in faith is not a virtue.

It is only ignorance that feels good like oxycodone for the soul.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 12:39 PM

We now have scissors that can cut DNA segments out just like scissors.
Never mind how it works but imagine we cut out all the trans poson DNA in your genome.

Are you then still you? You now have only half the DNA you used to.

Without all the alien DNA are you only half a person?

What would happen to your progeny?

Religion is not going to answer my questions.

Stick around if you like learning.

If you do not learn a thing, please give me the common decency of privacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 12:53 PM

"Science requires evidence, but religion does not."

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 01:43 PM

What case? No-one disputes it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 01:54 PM

"Believe in science.."

😹😹 And you reckon you used to teach the bloody thing????

Seems that if, as you say, you can be rational and claim to be religious, then saying I'm a hypocrit for getting my kids christened for the tradition and ignoring the words fits in with your own outlook. Nice to see you describe yourself as a hypocrit Keith.

I'd ask for an apology but there again...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 02:07 PM

There are only two subjects to blurt about here anymore

1 The extremely silly

2 Science trumps religion or religion trumps science.


You guys or gals remind me of a Christian Taliban.

no ungodly science teachin allowed.

I don't heckle your church service
You needn't disallow ideas
You may discover you are just an idea,
an algorhythm,programed to repeat and die.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 02:55 PM

Shimrod says: religious faith is the fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for the existence of which there's no evidence - the very antithesis of science.

Well then, that's settled. I guess I don't have faith.

Either that, or perhaps I'd be a fool to accept a definition of faith from somebody intent on refuting it.

I also don't accept definitions of faith from extremist religious people who are cocksure that they're the only ones who possess the truth.

There are so many similarities between them and those I call "born-again atheists," who are also cocksure that they're right and others are wrong. Both are quick to condemn; and it almost seems that their primary focus in life is condemn others.

I guess I just don't understand what's behind those who are so driven to ridicule, redefine, and condemn any way of thinking that is not their own. It's dangerous to think in absolutes, no matter what school of thought one espouses - even science. Believe it or no, science has failed us before - remember eugenics? I think it's far better to consider things from a variety of perspectives, even from various religious perspectives. If we look at things from various directions, we're far more likely to come up with a valid approximation of reality.

For years, I've called myself a "radical moderate." I try to consider all perspectives respectfully - and that means that NOBODY ever sees things my way. I find that both atheist and religious extremists constantly redefine and ridicule what I have to say. Musket calls me a "boutique Christian," and neoconservative Catholics call me a "Cafeteria Catholic." Note the similarity - both sides can see only absolutes.

But back to the first post - I had a little trouble figuring out which podcast Donuel was referring to, since there are several on the link - http://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444899/pri-studio-360. I guess it's the Studio 360 podcast titled "Do Animals Have Culture?" The program explores the question whether animals make aesthetic judgments and do things for purely aesthetic reasons. Some, no doubt, will ridicule those who would pose this question, saying that to do so is to anthropomorphize animals.

I think some of our Mudcat absolutists are afraid to anthropomorphize humans, denying the value of any human endeavor that cannot be defined in their pseudo-scientific terms.

I think we're far better off to consider all things, not closing ourselves off to any attempt to pursue any question. Of course it's important to consider aesthetics from a scientific perspective, but let's remember that science is only one of many valid perspectives.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:06 PM

My heart goes out to you, Donuel. You are not afraid to post your poetry on the forum. You are braver than I, who stop to think carefully before posting a translation of someone else's song lyrics/poetry on the forum. You start a thread called, I Love this idea, and you-know-who-ses renew their ongoing compulsion to worry words about. Never change. Illegitimi non carborundum. And all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:26 PM

Trump think;

Makes America GRATE again.

Illegitimi Americus carborundum infiniti


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 06:16 PM

In response to my 'definition' of faith (what did I miss out?) Joe Offer says:

" ... I'd be a fool to accept a definition of faith from somebody intent on refuting it.

I also don't accept definitions of faith from extremist religious people who are cocksure that they're the only ones who possess the truth.

There are so many similarities between them and those I call "born-again atheists," who are also cocksure that they're right and others are wrong. Both are quick to condemn; and it almost seems that their primary focus in life is condemn others."

First, I wouldn't describe myself as "cocksure" - I'm a sceptic. Second, I'm not a "born again atheist" - I never considered myself to be either religious or a Christian in the first place. I've never understood the attraction of religion and am equally puzzled as to why others are attracted to it. Adults tried to indoctrinate me with religious claptrap when I was a child ... but they failed and when I became an adult, I dropped religion completely and have never looked back. Finally, I would only "condemn" the religious if they attempted to indoctrinate others - particularly children.

As I see it, the world has been in thrall to religion for centuries. Even in my lifetime, when someone claimed that they had faith and believed in this and that and mouthed pieties, one was supposed to shuffle one's feet and bow one's head and look all solemn and reverent. Not any more! Enough! The world is sliding into chaos through conflict, climate change, biodiversity loss and environmental degradation. Religion won't help us - we need to find ways to deal with reality as it actually is!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 08:25 PM

"There are so many similarities between them and those I call "born-again atheists," who are also cocksure that they're right and others are wrong. Both are quick to condemn; and it almost seems that their primary focus in life is condemn others"

You're a bitter man, Joe. If ever I came across any atheist who was cocksure that he was right, I'd laugh out loud in his face. If I ever met an atheist who condemns you for what you believe, the same. Musket, idiotically, supports Sheffield Wednesday. The point is that he doesn't thrust Sheffield Wednesday down your throat, make children sit under their club logo and say prayers to their goalkeeper, make them attend Sheffield Wednesday rallies every week, promote them with graven images on public buildings in every town and city in the country. Yet, Sheffield Wednesday are real. They actually exist. I can prove it. I could show you their ground or take you to see them lose one of their games (heaven forfend...). Spot the difference...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 08:55 PM

Shimrod says: I would only "condemn" the religious if they attempted to indoctrinate others - particularly children.

And Steve Shaw has said the same thing time and time again, although no doubt he'll deny it. Can't remember what Musket and raggytash and Jim Carroll and others have said about religious people bringing up their kids in a religious tradition.

But does it make sense to demand that parents NOT bring their children up according to their own family traditions? Must I be restricted from telling my kids what and how I'm thinking, lest I pollute their fragile minds?

But maybe religion isn't primarily indoctrination. Maybe it's a culture, a perspective, a way of looking at things. and maybe, just maybe, religious people can be every bit as intelligent and independent-thinking as those who don't practice a religion.

I think the flaw is in the knee-jerk compulsion to condemn. And once again, I must say I find it interesting how this trait is common to our born-again religious people, and those atheists whose compulsion is to attack religious belief.

I don't ask anyone to become a Christian - I never have, and I never would. I do ask for tolerance and a modicum of respect. Both are sadly lacking here.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 09:01 PM

Yes, Steve, I suppose I know a few Catholics who shove their religion down their children's throats, more-or-less. A very few.

It's not really a common practice, but you certainly make it seem so. If that's what your parents did to you, then I feel sorry for you. Rest assured that most Catholic parents don't do that, not even in countries you consider to be inferior to yours.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 09:23 PM

Joe please attend your religious convention and take care of those souls.

I don't see a single idea you love except for the same old Christ Story.

Old story, been there done that. Go make your own Christ Story thread

Now for those who might want to learn a new story stick around.

15 years ago when the human genome was well known we saw all this extra DNA and called it "junk DNA"
We didn't really think it was garbage. I used to think it could be instructions to build highly complex proteins.

DNA is basically a twisted 2 dimensional construct but proteins are 3 dimensional. The steps to make a protein is wicked hard.

The alien DNA we pick up on the road of life is one of the real mysteries some of you who study may someday solve.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 09:56 PM

"And Steve Shaw has said the same thing time and time again, although no doubt he'll deny it"

No doubt my arse. I have said the same thing and I won't deny it. Why should I. It's fine for you to harbour whatever delusions you like. I've illustrated Musket's Owls delusion time and time again. He's illustrated his delusion that I have a Liverpool delusion time and time again. Delusions make us human, not Vulcans. It's also fine to tell your kids about your delusions. But you tell your kids that your delusions contain deeper truths. You've told us that too, and you back it up by telling us how long you studied in a seminary. You send them to schools to sit in classrooms under crucifixes where they will be made to say daily prayers which are replete with bogus certainties. That school will herd your children off to services at which your delusions will be asserted as truths. You will do the same thing yourself on Sundays, justifying the practice by convincing yourself that you are involving them in a worthwhile community of people whose common characteristic is that they all harbour the same delusion as you. You will have had them "christened" whilst still tiny babies, so that you can call them "Catholic children." "Catholic children." What an obscenity. And if you don't do this with your children, almost none of them would ever sign up later as Catholics. Which is why you do it. The only way the Catholic Church, or any other religion for that matter, can survive is by signing up children before they're old enough to make up their own minds. I suppose seminaries are too busy with theology to tell you that.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 10:21 PM

Sorry, Donuel. I didn't mean to get off the subject. But when intolerance was expressed a few too many times, I felt a need to speak up.

Why is it you didn't speak up about that? Perhaps, Donuel, you should focus your attention on the attackers, not on those who are attacked. If it weren't for those who feel compelled to attack and ridicule believers, you'd see very little about religion on Mudcat.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 02:56 AM

And yet Joe..

You tar people with a convenient brush, in the manner of an absolutist yourself.

If you read what I put (and of the three of us, I seem to have the religion v reality portfolio) I do admire tradition. I did have my children christened, half through tradition and half through buying them a ticket in advance should they reason as adults that religion is something they would like to get into. (Result? Further evidence that if you weren't brainwashed as a child, you have no use for it as an adult.)

I do keep comparing it with my Sheffield Wednesday faith. Steve is fundamentally wrong though in saying he could take you to Hillsborough to see them lose. They never lose, you see. Occasionally the league moves in mysterious ways but we never lose, we never lose the faith. It's through the fact that I could never support a different team, that it was so ingrained in me as a child that I actually do understand why people turn to a fantasy construct. Ok, Sheffield Wednesday are worthy of praise but that's another matter.

You see Joe, you confuse dismissal of the aims of organisations using people's vulnerability as a tool with what you call absolutist.

Not thinking Harry Potter is real doesn't make me an absolutist. I don't think The X Files are telling us something through drama. That doesn't make me an absolutist either. So why does dismissing the concept of another man made invention make those who fall for it call normal people absolutists?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM

Ah, but you're different, Musket, far more difficult to define succinctly. In fact, there's an understanding at Mudcat that at least some of the time, there has been a Musket Trinity, three persons in one Musket.

I, too, am similar, since sometimes I'm an atheist or at least agnostic, often Buddhist, and sometimes Islamic. I suppose, though, that I'm always a Catholic agnostic, a Catholic Buddhist, or a Catholic Muslim. I think it might be best to define Joe Offer as "All Things Considered," but always interested in justice and fairplay and rooted in Catholic tradition (if not ideology).

I think it's far better to consider questions, rather than to paint groups of people with a broad brush and predict their perceptions by the labels we've give them. Still, Mr. Shaw, the one-time Catholic who probably once fit the conservative definition of Catholic far better than I ever have, seem to fall right smack dab in the middle of the "mindless absolutist antitheist" category. The man knows no middle ground.

I think I'd prefer to continue to consider all things with an open mind, and not bother holding on too tightly to any one definition of "Truth."

-Joe-

Sorry, Donuel. I know you want to control this thread, but Musket posed the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:30 AM

Ah but it isn't about knowing or thinking you know truth. It's purely saying that unless and until someone has evidence to show me, the concepts of religion are purely tradition and ritual. Truth isn't even on the sub bench.

Having an open mind and exhibiting faith aren't exactly bedfellows, are they? No matter. It's just that I'm obviously not capable. After all, one minute Keith is posting the words vicars use at christenings at me, the next he is saying he "believes" science. Presumably the ritual quotes he threw at me weren't from Genesis then..

Oh.. Err yeah. Donuel? Wot Joe said.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:49 AM

Of course I believe in science.
It is based on hard evidence.
Do you disbelieve in science Musket?
I have had a long career as a science teacher and was known for my enthusiasm for the subject.
Astronomy has been my hobby since I was a small boy.

My knowledge of science is extensive, and none of it conflicts with my faith.

Donuel,
Science trumps religion

That has been claimed here, but it does not.

or religion trumps science.

No-one has claimed that at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:50 AM

Musket sez: The concepts of religion are purely tradition and ritual. Truth isn't even on the sub bench.

Joe sez: So, you got tradition, ritual, and truth. What's wrong with two outa three?

To my mind, it is absolutely essential that faith be combined with having an open mind (AND a sense of humor, and can we throw in poetry along with it?). Otherwise, faith becomes poison.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:53 AM

Going back to one of the things that you wrote on the 15th March, Joe:

"I think it's far better to consider things from a variety of perspectives, even from various religious perspectives. If we look at things from various directions, we're far more likely to come up with a valid approximation of reality."

I'm not sure that that is true. Can you give us any examples where "considering things from a variety of perspectives" has worked?

The media, both in the US and the UK, are a bit obsessed with even handedness. There was a very perceptive article in the UK newspaper, the 'Independent', the other day, in which the opinion was expressed that the BBC's "two sides to every story" policy means that very few meaningful opinions are expressed at all. We've got a referendum coming up soon about whether or not the UK should remain in the European Union. How should I, or any other British citizen, vote? If I relied solely on the BBC, I wouldn't have a clue!

Then there's Naomi Klein's brilliant recent book, 'This Changes Everything' about anthropogenic climate change. She points out that the media have tended to give equal weight to those (97% of climate scientists) who have mountains of scientific evidence to show that climate change is happening and 'climate change sceptics'. As the latter are largely people who profit from extracting and burning fossil fuels she asks if they really should be given equal air-time? She thinks not - given the dire consequences of climate change - and I agree with her.

And should people who are aspiring to high office be allowed to preach hatred? Perhaps they should be made to keep their obnoxious opinions to themselves.

And back to religion. Are there really two sides to the question of religion? Well, at the very least, religion should not be exempt from criticism (as it has been for centuries).


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 06:42 AM

That's very good, Shimrod. I see a number of parallels with religion and climate change denial. The deniers are wanting us to see things "from a different perspective." Religionists, same thing. The deniers have no evidence. God-fearers have no evidence. The deniers have ulterior motives in that they are generally in the pockets of oil companies, etc. Individual believers may or may not have ulterior motives (a bit of insurance, scared that granny might disinherit them if the kids aren't baptised, the Catholic school down the road has the "best reputation", that sort of thing), though many are just genuinely deluded. But big religion definitely has ulterior motives, mainly involving the deployment of instruments of control (lots of rules about your sex life, threats of hellfire apropos of the sin list they've carefully constructed, ostracism or death threats for apostasy, etc.). Deniers make a superficially attractive case by making you feel comfortable about your energy-gobbling car and air conditioning system, religion gives us fine music, art and architecture (and you won't find me denying that. I've just listened to a wonderful recording of Michael Haydn's Requiem, for example).

Climate change deniers haven't quite succeeded as yet in making their delusion the default position, unlike religion. I drove through a Cornish village the other day. Confronting me (literally) was a rather unattractive concrete church building (not all our villages are chocolate-box material) with a twenty-five foot high blank crucifix painted on it with the words BAPTIST CHURCH writ large underneath. Such nonsense is the norm in "Christian" countries, of course. We're so used to these monstrosities that we're resigned to seeing them everywhere and just shrugging. A complacent attitude well worth avoiding, both with religion and climate change deniers.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 06:48 AM

Err.. No Keith. I don't "believe" in science. The term sounds like something one of pete's "evolutionary scientists" would come out with.

Science is discovery. You take as a fact till it is satisfactorily challenged and then see how that impacts any other hypothesis. Belief is the art of hampering the scientific process.

Compare the two conversations;


Musket to vicar. " It seems to be rather established that the earth is older than the bible says, that virgins don't drop kids, that you don't come back to life when dead etc etc.

Vicar to Musket. "Blasphemy!"

Or...

Vicar to Musket. "I read your thesis and noted that one of the key elements you based your main formula on has subsequently been challenged and some modelling devised by a university in The States suggests the relationship is only logarithmic within certain parameters and gravity plays an increasing role at outer perimeters of your model.

Musket to vicar. "Wow! That's great! Have you got their details? I'd like to write a revised paper."

(That's Musket by the way, not me. My MD is safe because it was purely research. Musket was telling me his doctoral thesis has had a battering in recent years and he was even on the viva panel of one student who challenged his earlier conclusion.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 09:42 AM

"Confronting me (literally) was a rather unattractive concrete church building (not all our villages are chocolate-box material) with a twenty-five foot high blank crucifix painted on it with the words BAPTIST CHURCH writ large underneath."

In the northern British city in which I live there's a somewhat deprived suburb and in the midst of it there's an enormous Catholic monastery. In the 19th century, when the monastery was built, the suburb was even more deprived and the Church appeared to be saying to the suburb's struggling inhabitants: "We don't care about your temporal sufferings - it's your immortal souls we're interested in." Or perhaps they were really saying: "F**k you, you 'losers, we've got all this money and we're going to spend it ALL on this huge gothic monstrosity!"

During the latter half of the 20th century, the gothic monstrosity fell into disrepair (perhaps the Church lost interest?) and then was declared a 'World Heritage Site' (or something) and was 'saved' for the nation; now it's a concert venue. Personally, I would have blown it up - for a start, I really hate Victorian gothic brick churches!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 09:48 AM

I think you're investing transposing DNA with a little too much mystery and romance, Donuel, by calling it "alien". Surprising, unexpected, blowing an idea or two out of the water maybe, which is what makes science so delicious. An extra thing to try to grapple with and explain. I'd like to hear more about this notion of amassing/absorbing DNA which we can then pass on...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 09:55 AM

Joe there are no attackers.* There are no men of malice, just semi silly academic comedians who spend an inordinate amount of time trying to fill a lonely hole in their lives with amusement.



What is wrong with that. Whatever rewards they feel from their contributions should be celebrated not condemned or attacked.

life is short JOE.

I hope you spend all the time you want anyway you really want.

btw I know you are not recused of being able to use your editing tools.

*I am not saying their are no people with evil in their hearts. The truly harmful actors capable of financial criminality or misplaced revenge thoughts have bigger fish to fry and hack..






Yes Keith,

That IS why they call it

THE CHRIST STORY

instead of

THE CHRIST EVIDENCE.




Plot of a genetic sci fi
Using CRSPR all the trans poson DNA is removed from one subject and combined with all the 'junk DNA" of another and the first trans galaxian is born with technical memory intact.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 09:59 AM

Now that makes much more sense. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 10:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjzQXq4Tj40


Here is a link to a TV program that includes names of researchers' names.

While the show is aimed at amateur consumers of science the treatment of the subject is not too dumbed down. It is dumbed down just enough for me.

Current research at Genomics Inc and NIH grant recipients into the influence of outside DNA on a genome is currently underway.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 10:54 AM

The question of what is the purpose of trans posons, comes to bear.

Who benefits?

By rubbing shoulders with fragmentary DNA may be a help to our immune system over time. Just as likely it may harm our immune system.

If it helps change our partial exposure to harmful virus' the process might work something like an elemental vaccine?

That's all that comes to mind right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 11:23 AM

How does it get into us to become an integral part of the genome?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 01:05 PM

The same mechanism a virus uses to use a molecular key to open a door into a cell in hopes to hijack cell processes to grow copies of a cell.

In DNA there are no such mitochondrial factories so maybe only a segment of only a few AGT or C sequences replace original code, do not get reproduced but stored and copied to the warehouse to one day get replaced by another segment 200 years later.

In short a bit of DNA hitch hikes on a virus.

Maybe it only replaces DNA that is already in the junk warehouse section of our genome. Otherwise it will be corrected by RNA matching code correction.

Answers to this question is beyond me but what experts are probably looking for.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 01:08 PM

The amount of DNA that does not apply to us weighs in the micrograms but bacteria WHOA we can have twenty pounds of bacteria microphages and creepy crawlers that are part of an ecosystem we call our bodies.

Maybe even more than 20 pounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 01:15 PM

So I'm not overweight after all. Bloody hitch-hikers.

A virus makes copies of itself, not the cell.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 02:04 PM

grammar said that not me :0)

One of the ideas that I love the most could give Joe an epiphany and me a nerd orgasm at the same time. (did I just have sex with Joe?)
No? good. Anyway

A 3 d model of the universe has been derived from actual data and to everyone who sees it from a distant perspective all agree it looks positively organic.

To me it resembles Neurons Dendrites and synapses.
A living Universe that learns of itself from the very large to very small, from the outside in.

While we humans, (made of the stuff in the Universe) are learning of the Universe from the very small to very large, from the inside out.

Johnathon Swift should have seen this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJpC_oQQxPI


Now to practice some music


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 02:47 PM

For over 10 years an electric theory has become intertwined with field theory and is beginning to out shine General Relativity regarding matter. Why should matter curve space/ FIND OUT Here.

Did you ever see the big scar on Mars? It was not carved by water alone but a cosmic plasma lightening bolt.

Some of the plasma events in the universe were seen by our ancestors.

They depicted them all over the world.

This theory is as novel black holes were 50 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7XS0TvA&ebc=ANyPxKqCXSjQzHY6s3q0MwyJJaxH7UwQm6GL0nFSPxn2oM0wgdI42KkgK35irQhww1s-FPjeKClhAnMSAPFWibyNSOno2_yLug


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM

Why do so many of you keep pointing out that there is no evidence for religion?
We all knew that, especially us with faith.
No-one is claiming evidence for religion! OK?

Musket, I am surprised you do not believe in science.
You should. It can answer most of the questions about life, the universe and everything.
I believe in the Big Bang. Don't you?
I believe in evolution. Don't you? You should. The evidence is very compelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM

Shimrod quotes Joe: "I think it's far better to consider things from a variety of perspectives, even from various religious perspectives. If we look at things from various directions, we're far more likely to come up with a valid approximation of reality."

Shimrod responds: I'm not sure that that is true. Can you give us any examples where "considering things from a variety of perspectives" has worked?

Well, Shimrod poses climate change as an example, and I think I could add evolution as a similar example.

And yeah, my principle doesn't work the same way when the other party's perspective is the denial of something I know to be a reality. But in that case, the other party's position is the denial of the possibility of discussion or common ground. So, in that case, mutually-respectful consideration is impossible.
Still, the other party is most likely a voting citizen, and it behooves me to understand the others point of view and not refute him/her too strongly if I'm going to need his vote or need to form an alliance with him. It may well be smart to avoid discussing climate change or evolution with that party, unless there's a real need for his denial to be refuted. I can have a really good time singing with evolution deniers if I don't fight them on that topic. But if I do battle with them, it makes it hard to sing together. So...is the battle worth it?

But many of us religious people accept the theory of evolution, even though some may say our acceptance of evolution is not valid because we don't abandon our ideas about God. I dunno. I've considered evolution from a theist and from a non-theist perspective, and most things come out more-or-less the same. From my theistic perspective, I see a unifying essence within and beyond all things, and I ponder that and find myself taken to exploring a wide range of possibilities. I've also considered evolution from a more purely rational and scientific perspective. I find that's a very good way to root my perspective in reality, but it takes the poetry out of it all, and I get a lot of appreciation and enjoyment out of those broadened perspective.

So, let's take a flower. If we look at it from a scientific perspective, we can photograph it, dissect it, or maybe eat it. But we could also look at that flower from the broad variety of perspectives of various artists and philosophers and poets and musicians - most of which may not be scientifically accurate. Nonetheless, they can be very rich and rewarding to me.

Or maybe I could look at the flower from an Islamic perspective, and wonder about how that flower inspires Islamic art and poetry and music and architecture and mathematics - all in ways that are very foreign to me, but very worthwhile.

Or, as suggested by the first post in this thread, I can attempt to consider the flower from the perspectives of various animals - and each attempt to see through those other perspectives will deepen my appreciation of that flower.

So, yeah, I can see value in considering things from many perspectives, even though I may not consider those perspectives to be completely valid. And in the process, I gain respect for the other being, and I believe that respect makes this world a better place for us all to live in - even if we all don't come up with the same answers to the questions.

Up above, Donuel suggests that I consider the perspective of Gaia, and I have dabbled in that and found it worthwhile. I like the idea of a feminine deity, and the unifying principles and earth-based spirituality that follow. But it's not where I come from, so it doesn't feel right to be my primary perspective. Still, I see a lot of value in it, and it is popular in some spheres.


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM

No. I don't believe in science at all. I accept the scientific approach though and I accept explanations with the caveat that they may be updated at some point.

Belief is too stifling a concept for an inquisitive mind. It's best served by shut minds.

If you don't believe the stuff, why did you post a script for some of the mumbo jumbo when I said you can stand there in front of the vicar but you don't actually have to listen to it?

Why did you do that Keith? If you dismiss the "truth" bit the same as normal rational people? Do you have principles or do they take second place to trying to make others look twats?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 04:11 PM

Good, duly noted.

Now repeat yourself for an eternity as God has ordered you

Pssst there is some mind blowing science hidden here in my posts that the religious would hail as God lie.

but their faith to not look may be too strong


shhh


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM

Donuel says: Now repeat yourself for an eternity as God has ordered you
Pssst there is some mind blowing science hidden here in my posts that the religious would hail as God lie.
but their faith to not look may be too strong


Yes, there is some mind blowing science here, Donuel. It is very interesting and very valuable to study the aesthetic perspective of animals, as I said in my post at 2:53 PM, in an attempt to bring it all together. A great number of religious people can appreciate it and accept it fully. Therefore, there was no reason for anyone to bring anti-religious bigotry into play in this thread - and then to expect religious people not to have the right to respond.

So, get off your anti-religious high horse and talk about what you say you want to talk about, already.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 06:35 PM

"I've considered evolution from a theist and from a non-theist perspective, and most things come out more-or-less the same."

This is possible only if you don't understand evolution, which you have demonstrated time and time again that you don't. There is no way of properly considering evolution from a theistic perspective. There is nothing about evolution, or any other natural phenomenon, that requires the insertion of a God. Everything can be explained in terms of normal laws of nature and there has never been the slightest hint that the things we have yet to explain will be any different. All you're doing is trying to justify your unfounded belief in God by manufacturing a false reconciliation with science. At best it's deluded, at worst it's downright dishonest.

" From my theistic perspective, I see a unifying essence within and beyond all things, "

I'll be kind and not say that this is dreamy, cloudy, meaningless gibberish. I've tried to explain that evolution cannot have a unifying essence, a divine (or non-divine) driver, a kick-starter, an underlying sense of direction, a quest for greater complexity or perfection or a designer. The phenomenon of evolution is innocent of all these notions, and with any one of them on board the whole thing would be turned on its head.

" I've also considered evolution from a more purely rational and scientific perspective. I find that's a very good way to root my perspective in reality, but it takes the poetry out of it all"

Well what actually takes the poetry out of it all is the dereliction of intellect and imagination that goes hand in glove with your Godly "perspective." The natural world is amazing enough in its diversity, complexity and beauty, there for us to study for what it is and to inspire our highest flights of imagination, spawning the finest poetry, music and art there has ever been, not there for us to superimpose an undemonstrable, dismal, infantilising gloss. What is so amazing is its beautiful normality and the way it keeps faith unfailingly with the laws of nature. To try to explain it in any other fashion, without evidence, is to insult it. I don't know why anyone would even want to try. If you really can't see beauty and poetry in science then you're not seeing science at all. Poems are made by fools like me but only God can make a tree. I can live without that sort of poetry, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 06:45 PM

There is plenty of evidence for religion, Keith. And scientists don't believe in science. Your penchant for inexactitudes of this sort gets you into trouble. Remember the Wheatcroft fiasco?

And you could pick on far less benign targets than Donuel, Joe. He's had me looking stuff up a few times lately. And making me laugh. I can take that in this vale of tears in which we find ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 07:06 PM

Steve, you were brought up with a theistic perspective that didn't satisfy you, and you rejected it. I respect you for doing that.

I was brought up with a theistic perspective that DID satisfy me, and I built on it and made it my own. Mine fits very well with science and evolution and homosexuality and any number of things that you also find important. I'm sure I rejected many concepts that you also rejected (like sappy poetry, for instance), but I found a way of thinking that is satisfying to me.

Did it ever occur to you that your left-behind theistic perspective and my current one, might be quite different?

You and Musket and Donuel and raggytash and so many others present a definition of religion that is nothing at all like the religious faith I practice. If religion were like what you define, I wouldn't want it, either.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM

"GOD like not god lie."

for what ever reason you have a **** ** regarding my religious education, I can never change your mind. I don't want to. If you could answer one question please answer "How dare you Donuel for ..........?"


You sometimes decide I deserve your ire. Being who I am, I can't change your mind.
it seems as impossible as teaching satire to a fundamentalist Taliban who thinks a joke is anathema deserving a stoning of the comedian.

My high horse is no higher than your participation in high jacking every thread I start about gravity waves or advanced genetics cosmology, the queen of science, with the same ol oppositional explorations of religion. Way off topic dude. Despite your animosity at times I will always appreciate the dedication, the hours, the frustration and cooperation of building something real, MUdcat

Or do you not know my religious education?
Do you know who presided at our wedding?

I know;
Without religion there is no JS Bach or lots of beautiful experiences and healing.
I do not even mention the other side of the coin.

In conclusion I am happy as a nobody. If you need to be angry at a nobody sometimes, fine. It might be fun.   Just don't stay mad
That would be boring.

PS the blue clicky link seems to broken the last couple trys


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 07:22 PM

No, Donuel, I do not know your religious education, or anything about your wedding. And yes, there's quite a difference between "God like" and "God lie." So I didn't understand your post completely because of that. And I have no desire to wage war with anyone here. I merely wish to be tolerated and accepted, and not redefined into something I am not. And if I am not tolerated, then I speak out.
You have a problem with that?
And by the way, I agree with everything said on the podcast, and found it very interesting.

-Joe Offer-



And here's the link to Studio 360. I believe the name of the podcast is called "Do Animals Have Culture?" - correct me if I'm wrong. Here's the link: And here's an alternate link, if that one is a problem:Do I have the podcast program name right?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 07:43 PM

I don't present definitions of your religion or anyone else's. You characterise your own faith in your own way and that is what I go on. Whatever diversionary tactics you wish to employ, it still comes down to a belief system that is, to rational people who base their notions on evidence and reason, delusional and completely inadequate for explaining anything, let alone revealing of what is really true. You can't help that. It doesn't matter what version of God appeals to you most. The problem is with God, not the version. It isn't the different theistic perspectives that are the sticking point. It's the fact that they are theistic. To me, theistic equals invalid. Why? Because I want the evidence that you haven't got. Note, that you haven't got, not what you can't provide or articulate. You simply haven't got it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 08:53 PM

The alternative to the standard model of the universe
This is 100 minutes and requires focused attention.







What I see are dendrites, neurons , synapses and a brain;

A 3 d model of the universe has been derived from actual data and to everyone who sees it from a distant perspective all agree it looks positively organic.

To me it resembles Neurons Dendrites and synapses.
A living Universe that learns of itself from the very large to very small, from the outside in.

While we humans, (made of the stuff in the Universe) are learning of the Universe from the very small to very large, from the inside out.

strange science religion bedfellow journey




Note to Joe

I have gone back and read the religious posts I had skipped.
Between eye problems and difficulty reading I must admit I do see your fair minded thoughts and apologize for my knee jerk blindness to the posts I was presumptuously judging as same old stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 03:43 AM

There again, I for one haven't dismissed Joe's creed or position. But when he calls himself a catholic, I take it he means Catholic and not Fred Catholic & Co, Costermongers to the Gentry.

You see, this is what happens. I criticise what Vatican spokesmen call the Catholic position. Joe gets shitty and says that doesn't represent his position so stop slagging off Catholics. I suggest that a boutique pick n mix position means I can still slag off the Catholic position so stop getting precious. Joe takes umbrage at being accused of pick n mix.

You know, just like Keith, Joe can sometimes use "we" and "they" in the same sentence to mean Christian. Hey Joe! How come Steve's take is one I could, from what I read from him, be comfortable with yet you seem convinced it is because he rejected faith that gives him his view? I have never rejected anything. I haven't been given a choice, have had no family or peer pressure to belong or been remotely curious, other than as a fascinated bystander as to how people can still take the make believe aspects seriously.

Not sure your analysis holds? Just saying like.,


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 03:58 AM

Steve,
There is nothing about evolution, or any other natural phenomenon, that requires the insertion of a God.

We all agree on that Steve, so what is your point?

Joe, like every other Christian I know other than Pete believe in evolution.
You explain to us please what conflict you imagine to exist?

And you and Musket should believe in science.
If you do not believe in the Big Bang, how do you account for the microwave background?
Are you really saying you do not believe in evolution? You should. Variation and inheritance mean that it is inevitable. It must happen.
What is not to believe?
Not certain obviously. There is no place for certainty in either science or religion.

Please also tell us what evidence you have for religion, because I have none.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 04:21 AM

"Please tell us what evidence you have for religion, as I have none."

See? I told you this religion lark was perhaps too complicated for you. Here's a few bits of evidence you can see easily;

Go on B&Q website and look for opening hours. Notice that Sundays have fewer hours? Closed on Christmas Day? That's evidence of religion, that is.

Now get off your armchair and look out of the window. Can you see any spires or towers? Ok, turn round so you are looking out of the window. That's better. See any? Binoculars may help? Ok, that's better. That's evidence of religion, that is.

Now become a volunteer at a semi secure unit and spend time talking to patients about their backgrounds and where the abuse started. Make two lists, one should contain 23% or thereabouts of patients. That's evidence of religion, that is.

Now go and reason with the EDL, BNP and UKIP thugs nailing a pig carcass to the door of the local mosque. That's evidence of religion, that is.

Pop over to Ireland. Try to find a large house with tall walls. Climb over and have a look in the septic tank. That's evidence of religion, that is.

Ok? One last one. Visit the villages in Ethiopia with little water, failing crops, starving goats and a shiny church at one end of the village and a glittering mosque at the other. That's evidence of religion, that is.

Just one thing.. I assume you don't need a dictionary to know what "evidence" means?

Science relies on evidence too. But unlike religion it doesn't rely on belief. Belief is too irrational a concept for modern science. Sure, you can combine the two in one brain but they only work if kept in separate lobes.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 04:47 AM

Sorry if I have confused you Musket.
I think we are all clear that there is such a thing as religion.
You and others have pointlessly accused people of faith of having no hard evidence for our belief in God.
I agreed that there is none.

Steve attacked me for that saying, "There is plenty of evidence for religion, Keith. .... Your penchant for inexactitudes of this sort gets you into trouble."

I think he should tell us what evidence he has for the existence of God, unless he is guilty of the "inexactitude" he accuses me of.

He also claims that scientists do not believe in Science!

If you two include yourselves in that, you presumably do not believe in Big Bang or evolution.
Joe and I do. The evidence is so compelling.
What is your problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 05:17 AM

Possibly you and Joe are conditioned to having to "believe in" rather than accept evidence.

Religion does that to you...

I don't "believe" in science. What an absurd ignorant notion to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 09:03 AM

No one opened the science links or you would be talking about that instead of making sure you et me know you love god and hate science in all the ways you know how.

your strategy is to eventually say something vile enough to erase this science thread.

I hope from now on these religious protestors no longer get Joe's support to close threads of thier choosing or make free science speech a protest event.

Have I any Allies?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 11:13 AM

I opened the hundred-minute one, then had to take someone for a hospital appointment. I'm always interested in picking the bones out of what you say. Will keep you posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 11:27 AM

"If you two include yourselves in that, you presumably do not believe in Big Bang or evolution."

The Big Bang and Evolution are models of reality based on the available evidence. No 'belief' involved!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 12:12 PM

I must warn you!!!

The weak sister of cosmology is the electric theory.

An outsider to astrophysics would have the common sense to take the one or two good ideas out of plasma science and add it to the standard model.

Integration is better than incineration.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 12:56 PM

Donuel,
instead of making sure you et me know you love god and hate science in all the ways you know how.

Who do you mean? I love science and it has been my whole life.

Steve and Musket,
Scientists do science, but you claim they do not believe in what the do, because they do not believe in science!
Twaddle!

You both say that you do not believe in it either!

Shimrod,
The Big Bang and Evolution are models of reality based on the available evidence.

That is why I believe in it, because I also accept the evidence.
Of course there is no place in science for certainty, but it is bizarre that you claim to accept the evidence but not believe in either!

Musket,

Possibly you and Joe are conditioned to having to "believe in" rather than accept evidence.


I do both, as does Joe.
You accept the evidence but refuse to believe in evolution!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 01:29 PM

Of course I don't "believe in" evolution. I have it on good authority though that it happens and I accept the concept as plausible. I therefore believe it to be the case.

If I were to believe in it though, I would defend it in the case of compelling evidence to the contrary, should such evidence exist. (Don't get excited pete, I was being hypothetical.)

Musket posted about my doctoral research. Yes, a key element of it has been shown to be flaky at the edges so is only practical within certain parameters. But as I believed my research but didn't believe in it, I was delighted to be out of date. If I believed in it, I might have falsified evidence to support it, a bit like religious people do when their scriptures are questioned. ("When Worlds Collide" is hilarious, as is the dismissive essay about it by Isaac Asimov in "The Stars in their Courses.")

I really hope your pupils weren't told to believe in theories that become outdated. I hope you instead asked them to accept the theories as accurate based on present knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM

The 'if then' test for the electric universe theory.

IF the electric universe s true

then all we need to do is sting horizontal loos of left hand twists of wire high atop ungrounded micro wave type towers and draw off 300 volt DC energy.


love the work Tesla did. We depend upon what he did right where we sit right now.

I almost saw the elegance of his 3 pronged view of the electric universe and lost it that day. I have seen his pilot wave theory working in observable reality. He is still ahead of his time.


When we were kids we read Worlds in Collision. I'd say he is 20% correct even today.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 03:49 PM

Musket,
I therefore believe it (evolution) to be the case.

Same as me then.

I really hope your pupils weren't told to believe in theories that become outdated.

Why would I?
Belief and understanding need to evolve to encompass new knowledge.

I hope you instead asked them to accept the theories as accurate based on present knowledge.

No. They were expected to know the evidence for ideas like evolution and the big bang, and they chose whether to accept them or not..

Steve, you sneered at my "inexactitude" when I said there was no evidence for religion.
You said there was plenty. Why will you not share it?

I also asked what science contradicted faith. Still waiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM

For your same reasons 'I don't believe in ufo s.
I don't believe in hypnosis.

I simply was there when it happens.

I was also there when it didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 05:22 PM

Very boring, Keith. You're getting very silly. Let's all ignore Keith in this thread, folks.

I shall follow up your links, Donuel. It just hasn't been that kind of day my end.

I don't believe in ball lightning. I simply was there when it happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 02:59 AM

Go on, I'll fall for it.

Which 20% is true?

Venus doing a flyby of the earth in biblical times? It's "comet trail" releasing hydrocarbons that fell as carbohydrates, thus manna from heaven? The convenient thousand year gaps in history suddenly becoming the same week?

The problem with believing IN rather than accepting (believing?) is that our minds play tricks on us, I think therefore I am. Hence disturbed people who claim to have seen UFOs rarely leave it at that. They usually get dragged up on tractor beams and their minds probed for good measure. Shadows become ghosts, the ball zooming into the back of the Liverpool net becomes ball lightning (😎) and medieval translations of ancient fairy stories start making sense.

A bit of a bugger, the brain. You can only see peripheral vision in monochrome but your brain colours it in to match main vision. It doesn't let us dwell too much on our mortality and in a bizarre double twist, allows a few nutters to think that the brains of men whose parents were born in Pakistan are mentally hard wired to be rapists. No mean feat for evolution, considering Pakistan itself is less than 70 years old..,,


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:46 AM

Steve, why is it silly and boring to ask you to justify your assertions??
Is it just that you can't?

You stated,"And in order to espouse religious belief you have to suspend science."

What science do I need to suspend Steve? I am sure I know as much science as you, and I have no problem with any of it!

You stated,"There is plenty of evidence for religion, Keith. "

Produce some then!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:48 AM

Donuel, Worlds in Collision was not by Tesla.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:53 AM

Musket,
allows a few nutters to think that the brains of men whose parents were born in Pakistan are mentally hard wired to be rapists.

Nutters indeed!
Where do you find such fools?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 04:44 AM

Been dragged up by any good tractor beams recently, KAoH? Just asking ...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 05:03 AM

No. Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 05:11 AM

Steve. Try quoting my post above showing evidence for religion. If you quote me in italics and point out that I am living, eminent* and wrote it within the past twenty years, Keith will accept it.




* My impersonation of Jesus on a rubber cross was once described by Brian Fullard, who used to run the chippy on Coggan St as "excellent." If that level of review doesn't make you eminent, nothing does.

(Which reminds me. Soon be Easter. Time to stock up on Ibuprofen 400mg.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 07:22 AM

Keith knows exactly what he's doing. That's why I'm taking no notice. I have no desire to dragged into yet another interminable round of arguing about who-said-what-using-which-precise-words. He loves it, he twists it, he milks it to death and it gets us nowhere worth going to. We've told Keith, Joe, pete and several other cloth-ears exactly what we mean by belief and what we mean by evidence. Too bad if they don't take it on board. Let it be their problem, not ours. I've taken the same approach with Insaneness-from-Inanity. My life may well be prolonged as a result. Wibble (and I got that straight out of my favourite historical source, Blackadder Goes Forth, and that great historian, Baldrick, isn't dead yet so I must be right).

Liverpool beat Man U 3-1 on aggregate, Europa League. Two brilliant performances, Coutinho a bloody genius. Sorry about that, MikeL2 (like buggery I am)! Thank Ludwig for my five-quid BT Sport sub. How much would Barca pay for little Phil! This is all anyone on earth or in space needs to know or to contemplate for the next 48 hours.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 09:07 AM

Keith knows exactly what he's doing.

I was arguing that science and religion are not incompatible.
You have completely failed to make the case that they are, and as ever revert to personal abuse because you have no other reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 09:52 AM

Wibble.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM

I was arguing that science and religion are not incompatible.
You have completely failed to make the case that they are,


You were indeed, Professor. However, Steve aside, thousands have made the case quite convincingly.

Pick up a book sometime. You could start with "The Martyrdom of Man" by Winwood Reade (1872)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 11:41 AM

I'll go along with that. As an SHO, I worked under a microbiology prof who really knew his stuff and was at the forefront of research into tackling anti microbial resistance. At the same time, he buggered off twice a day to his office, four times on a Friday to find his prayer mat. He never ate bacon butties and to my knowledge never got pissed either.

So yeah, science and religion aren't incompatible. Although only insomuch as where they don't meet.

My love of pickled eggs isn't incompatible with my loathing of the junior doctor contract. I like to wear chino trousers but that doesn't stop me downloading The Now Show podcast.

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 12:29 PM

Worlds in Collision....Velikovsky?
By the way, that very title/author is listed in the bibliography for the newest book by Morgan Llywelyn, Only the Stones Survive, in which the sons of Milesios encounter the Tuatha de Danann.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 01:24 PM

I did not say it was.
I merely started a new sentence assuming everyone knows W I C

Someone once mentioned having an open mind.

There is in my mind 20% truth in the electric universe.

Their problem is trying to make it apply to everything,
similar to what a scant few religious nutters do.

You know who they are, if you know yourself.

Your idea of competition is misplaced.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 02:40 PM

I'm bad with names.
I do not want to ascribe a religiocentric point of view on anyone who does not deserve it.

It is just that any Scopes trial discussion of evolution is ridiculous.

When I wrote of Evolution in 7th grade in upstate NY I was expelled until a meeting with my parents could be arranged. If I ignore such arguments where a lucky diamond is stuck inside a goat turd it is my fault for not seeing it. I didn't expect to look for diamonds in such a place.

After 50 years things change but people not so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Avro Arrow
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:22 PM

People is People...500 years ago...500 years from now


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 05:01 PM

There's a diamond in every crock of shite, even the Mudcat BS department. Don't get bitter, Donuel. This place needs you!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:13 PM

From WAY back:

Donuel: "Consciousness is from the inside out and the outside in. Not from the God perspective in."

Unless one thinks of themselves separate, there is no difference! We are not separate from the whole....unless one believes you are..but then how 'Conscious' can you really be, thinking with only part of your existence??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:44 PM

Mr. Shaw, You're too kind, real Minister material.

Its all cool. I did not realize I still harbored feelings of persecution from childhood regarding evolution. That tends to happen when you are actually persecuted by a school system.

About the inside outside thing, My intention was to wax poetic about the universe looking like a collection of neurons and dendrites compared to our relatively tiny sub atomic sized brains.

That consciousness may be a series of interactive feedback loops of the inside and outside is one way to look at it. That is a very incomplete idea but it is a decent launching point.


I wrote hundreds of pages about the simple process of perspectives.
I called it the theory of Perspectivism. I do not think it is an important waste of time but since then I have seen an echo of those ideas in books on cosmology. Ah oh there goes my Irrelevant alarm.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 07:02 PM

Your imagination is wacky, wayward, irreligious (I especially like that bit), and, in a strange way, "advanced." The perfect foil to the dismal desperadoes who think they see God in this, that or the other (in a starry sky but probably not in dog turds, oddly, even though they're made of exactly the same stuff), then think they can stop looking.   You get me looking proper stuff up, not just stuff in bibles that I need in order to crucify the crucifix aficionados. And there is no brickbat that could ever make you bitter. Kudos!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 07:19 PM

And I love the idea of a conscious universe. Why not? I read somewhere that when humans evolved the universe woke up. What an amazing, imaginative notion. Well, we're not just in the universe, we are the universe, Maybe life has evolved billions of times. As intelligent life advances, maybe just here or maybe in billions of places, the universe becomes more and more conscious and becomes intelligent. I see a link with your neurons and synapses, but that could just be metaphorical. But I love it. It's how we should be thinking. The mind taking flight, leaving plenty of room for the real science too, of course. That's entirely possible in a way that is not possible with a Godly bolt-on, the antithesis of science, the antithesis of true imagination, the antithesis of the search for what's really true. I'd rather do wacky anyday. The nuttiness of the truly sane!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 12:25 AM

Then, Steve, it's just a matter, perspective and definition, right?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 01:59 AM

Yep, the garden is truly beautiful. I doubt however there are fairies at the bottom of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 02:12 AM

Steve Shaw says: And I love the idea of a conscious universe.

So do I.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 02:50 AM

Methinks the operative word here is "idea."

🤓


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 08:20 AM

Wacky wayward and irreligious is the pinnacle of National Lampoon satire. I cartooned religiously along those lines since the Reagan administration. I used to post some here, especially the ones that didn't work hoping for feedback of improvement. With the advent of the Daily show and Colbert my efforts were redundant. But they are gone now and a vacuum is forming. If I am not careful my cartoons tend to become too epic and too dark.
I started a comedy last night called Ocean's 88. It writes itself.

My serious idea involves an unseen energy field force of space that explains entangled phenomena and dark energy inflation.

Its not that my imagination dares to go where others do not dare , its probably just a touch of autism that gives imagination a degree of freedom that acts virtually like an additional dimension at its best. At its worse I may have deficits so severe I overly simplify everything which makes for a pretty funny reality.


Bottom line is that your assessment is irreligiously correct. I was married by Madeline Murray's son,
Bill Murray.
long story but googlable.

btw



APRIL 2ND,      GOD IS COMING!!!

on National Geographic channel hosted by god himself
MORGAN FREEMAN


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 02:46 PM

GOD IS COMING April 2 2016 ngc

not a joke Shim, Jo, sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM

Donuel says: Bottom line is that your assessment is irreligiously correct. I was married by Madeline Murray's son, Bill Murray.

When Murray officiated at your wedding, Donuel, was he atheist or Baptist?

The problem with absolutists, is that they can go from one extreme to the other, being absolutely sure of themselves in both directions. As for me, I think I'm happier with uncertainty.

The aesthetic tastes of non-human animals, the idea of all the universe having consciousness, an alternative to the standard model of the universe. I think there is great value in exploring these ideas. Whether or not they are "true," our exploration will most certainly bring us to greater understanding of many things.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 04:21 PM

"I think there is great value in exploring these ideas. Whether or not they are "true," our exploration will most certainly bring us to greater understanding of many things."

Let's not get carried away though. In the end, scepticism is more powerful than 'belief'!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 05:48 PM

Heed Joe, he is a guru IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 06:24 PM

To me, the notion of a conscious universe is a flight of the imagination. It is not an alternative view of the universe because it doesn't remotely begin to challenge any scientific theories about the origin or nature of the universe. But it's good to let your brain take flight every now and then without threatening the science. I make no big claims for a conscious universe. The idea tickles my fancy, that's all. Scientists are not all Spocks.

I note that Joe Offer is so happy with his uncertainty that he cheerfully defends sending children to Catholic schools where they will have their minds stuffed with doctrine that is completely innocent of uncertainty. I mean, read any prayer, study any hymn or attend any service (which is what "Catholic children" are forced to do all the time) and you won't find the merest hint of Joe's uncertainty. As for Steve The Absolutist, I wonder how many times now I've said that I don't know whether there's a God or not. Millions I should think. Or twenty. OK, about eight.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 06:47 PM

It sounds like you know the answer but he was really a populist Christian. He later had an office in the W white house in charge of the born again base for Bush. Joe, humans are good at pattern recognition. YOU'RE GOOD AT PATTERNS. You sir are a human being.

anyone;
Do you ever just do something to watch what happens with no expectations to see what happens? Do you undertake rudderless tasks to understand the interactions. I have always noticed there are changeable interactions of a thing, more than there is just a thing itself.
To see interactions geometrically it is like mentally taking a dozen balloons with different properties, effect one another from heat or cold or vector compression and make various shapes because of the nature of each balloon. It can be as complex as fluid dynamics or simple as dry sand and wind. These games or simple aimless playing can be a waste of time or a grand taste of time.

Be it a lit alcohol soaked
Q tip ignited in a dark closet and moved slowly in a circle while you
watch the Q tip.

OR building a model universe and watching it to see what happens under various energies in space.


The way I made a model universe is as follows.

First I needed energetic space. A pan from a commercial bakery was filled with a inch or less of water and secured a speaker under the pan with epoxy. If you not have the means to control the frequencies
you could use a motorized unbalanced weight from a massage pad or chair but have a variable resistor so you can adjust the speed of vibration. Speakers are best. Now we have some energetic space.

Single steady high sounds with enough volume is key.

Now we will add matter to the fabric of space. Silicon lubrication spray works well. It works better than oil.

Tune the vibration to A below high C or A above high C.

If you add a drop of silicon with a tooth pick it should dance upon the top of the water. If it doesn't, adjust frequency until it does



I should not tell you what to look for. It spoils the fun if you are familiar with science or quantum mechanics .

but I doubt anyone will build a universe here.

So what you may see is how multiple drops interact just like quantum particles. You will see what Tesla theorized as the pilot wave.

It is a wave instead of behind a "boat", it is a wave that proceeds the "boat" and points the direction the drops will go in the future.


You can do a double slit experiment. Prompt the drops of silicon to head near the double slits and watch.

You are seeing a particle and its wave interact with an energetic 2D universe! Depending on your imagination and knowledge you may see much more.


Discovery feels good. It might just be a 1 meter circle some place in your yard. If you are open you can discover it and see a larger meaning.

If playing like this feels bad to you its OK you are sure to be good at discovering something. I love the idea of discovery be it in angstroms or millimeters, miles or light years.

I've given you three things to try like a child. If even one fills you with wonder I've done a mitzvah.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 07:46 PM

If you make a universe table*
with multiple vibration sources you will get a diffraction pattern with areas where the water will fountain and subtraction zones of low tides. Depending upon the power of the vibrations the water can spout 6 inches or more.

If you hook speakers under a water bed attached to Styrofoam that resonates you can turn up the bass a get a musical massage. It all about the bass.

If all this sounds crazy just remember, I am a tryer, its most of you guys who are the doers.

With the same stuff you can make a vibrating sex toy or watch quantum events on a visible scale. Seeing with new eyes is an intentional act, or as you might say something you do on faith.



*see previous post


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 07:49 PM

My limited flights of imagination, though never constrained by dismal Godliness, are as nothing compared with yours, Donuel. I don't understand three quarters of that post, but the sheer wildness of it is appealing.

Do you ever just do something to watch what happens with no expectations to see what happens? Do you undertake rudderless tasks to understand the interactions. I have always noticed there are changeable interactions of a thing, more than there is just a thing itself.
To see interactions geometrically it is like mentally taking a dozen balloons with different properties, effect one another from heat or cold or vector compression and make various shapes because of the nature of each balloon. It can be as complex as fluid dynamics or simple as dry sand and wind. These games or simple aimless playing can be a waste of time or a grand taste of time.

Be it a lit alcohol soaked
Q tip ignited in a dark closet and moved slowly in a circle while you
watch the Q tip.

OR building a model universe and watching it to see what happens under various energies in space.


I love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 10:26 PM

If you lit a alcohol soaked q tip and made slow circles with it in the dark you would see a ghost light of the Q tip follow an inch or two behind the real Q tip.

Did you see a vortex of vapor ignition? You could test and see if blocking the rear of the lit Q tip with a small card.

I think we see an illusion. It is called the persistence of vision.
The slowness of the chemical processes of the eye, the re charging chemicals in the eye takes time. This may be the reason for the second ball of faint light.

We see the present in the past, or a physicist would say time is an illusion depending upon your perspective.

With child like eyes we can see the deepest mysteries of the universe.



The water "universe" table by vibrating water at high frequency you can drop and watch tiny balls of silicon float on top and assemble into typical sub atomic structures. With low angle light you will see waves made by the balls bouncing on the water. These are special pilot waves, something we do not see on the lake in the real world but normally only in the quantum universe. The waves flow out in the direction of the tiny silicon balls forward movement.

On rare occasions we do we see what is right before us. In fact if you don't have a frame of reference, something real in front of you is invisible. This idea I presented 15 years ago.

It is our brain that tries to make time predictable and lend a smoothness to motion in your vision. If you did not allow your brain to modify vision you might see the micro flicker of florescent light or the stop action grainy stacking of time slices of trucks going down a distant highway or a conductors baton actually stop and start in tiny time slices. Jerky motion can cause survival difficulties. Its good we modify the perception of time motion.

Our senses are posed right at the precipice of chaos. If they were much more sensitive they would reveal more about chaos than the smoothness we think is reality.

I do not mean any of this to sound complex. If anything it is pure simplicity.



Now if I wanted to be dramatic I could talk about how time stops inside a black hole and the black hole is right now in the process of a colossal explosion but it is in such slow motion because of the extreme slow motion (curvature of spacetime) the explosion will probably never be seen by man.
There will be a time they will start going off as if it is all at once growing evermore frequent.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 10:58 PM

The preceding was the tame stuff culturally speaking.
I posted 8 or 9 years ago about the structures in the brain that allows conscious beings to see a little bit into the future.

Don't worry I am not here to trick anyone or commit a con by claiming I am from the future or any such stupid hoax.

Its just that all the conditions for me to spend 40 years considering esoteric pursuits of exploring reality and high strangeness, were satisfied. How far down the rabbit hole you go is determined by the questions asked, not the popular answers scattered about everywhere.

AH ha, there goes my irrelevant alarm again. It tells me to quit before I sound like a complete ass hole. Crap, too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:36 AM

The alcohol-soaked Q-Tip makes me worry about setting myself on fire, but it also brought something to mind. People often talk about a "green flash" that occurs at sunset. Can't say I had ever seen it, but now I don't know. I was taking pictures of the sunset on the Pacific Coast at Ventura, California, a couple weeks ago. As the sun was setting, there was a splotch of metallic green around it. The color lingered for a few seconds. So, was that the green flash, or was my eyesight distorted from having looked at the sun?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:01 AM

Probably The Noodly One foretelling his dire prognostications Joe...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:06 AM

The green flash is real, it can be explained by ordinary laws of physics and, best of all, is eminently photographable. I live in an ideal location for observing it, as for most of the year the sun sets over the Atlantic. Raggytash will confirm that. We were having a pint at the Bay View Inn, conditions were ideal and he was poised ready with his camera. Unfortunately, it's possible to be so preoccupied with the zoom and the little screen to get your composition right that you can forget to look at the sun at the crucial moment. Think how hard it is to catch a flash of lightning with a single shot when you're waiting for it, finger poised on the button. I reckon you'd see the green flash from here maybe ten times a year if you were really vigilant. Unscientifically, I've worked out that your chances are best if:
the sky is completely free of mist or dust haze
there is no cloud at all near the setting sun
the sea surface is smooth, unruffled by too much wind

I reckon your best bet is to shoot the sun with a good video camera with proper optical zoom, not an iPhone. It's worth trying the burst setting on a stills camera, though on the modest cameras I use this yields lower quality shots than taking single shorts on the best quality setting.

When conditions are ideal you'll always get a little clutch of people on the beach at Widemouth Bay trying to get that shot. I think you'd be better off raised a good few metres above sea level, or standing on a clifftop. Or in my back garden, 100 feet above sea level. :-).


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:46 AM

I see more sun rises theses days.

I suppose Joe would erupt in flames. God's will?

Musk kit, The things I helped create I hope you will never need, but if you do, may you make up your own mind like a horse being led to water.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:24 AM

Err.. Yeah. Right on

I hope for you that the tv remote of gritty deserts and windswept calm transmogrify into blueish hued virtue bushes with bumpy bits above their crankshafts of atrophy.

I think.

I could be wrong.

I've been eating cheese before sleeping again.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:50 AM

Ah great wizard of Muldroney   , spirit of the forward slice of the loaf of time may you regale us of 200 years hence via the entangled transmitter in MORSE CODE OR BINAY WHICH EVER YOU PREFER.


AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

When old Dude said there are no black holes he was absolutely right.
(btw Dan, it is safe to enter now) When you simply look at all the different kinds and sizes of collapsing exploding rebounding stars a black hole is just a critically large rebounding star that will eventually explode in a colossal bang second only to a big bang type explosion.

The fact we have only "heard "one of these go off is because long ago there were many fewer black holes than today.

Right this second thousands of black holes are in the process of exploding but their mass has curved spacetime t the point time stopped to the point when one of our seconds equals 10 billion years to the exploding rebounding star that s in a gravity hole from our perspective.

We have seen stars collapse as their nuclear fuel runs out and at its core only a neutron star exists. some collapse into a magnet state or magnatar. Some just collapse to a white or brown dwarf. But stars many tines the size of our sun burn out their mass collapses into a gravity well we call a black hole. It can continue to grow and will explode again but time moves so slow as to be stopped at its core.


I assure you the super neutron like star now composed of neutrinos packed solid eventually will rebound and explode, but man may have evolved into a cyber entity or not exist at all in a future so distant.


Hawking says "black holes" will evaporate and then make a small explosion.

I say it will explode but in such slow motion it will be a miraculous sight to behold. Stopped at first and grow more rapid over hundreds of years.



The holy question is what would an explosion of that magnitude expel?
elements, hydrogen, big bang components of different energies?
creation or cataclysm?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 10:17 AM

Steve Shaw: "I note that Joe Offer is so happy with his uncertainty that he cheerfully defends sending children to Catholic schools where they will have their minds stuffed with doctrine that is completely innocent of uncertainty."

Joe probably loves his kids, and sending them to a Catholic school, because the education, in those schools, spits in the milk of public schools!

The dogmatic stuff can be worked out, as the kids grow older, and depending on their spiritual experience that they may have along life's way.....

..and that's a fact! The parochial schools systems are FAR better academically than the politically based and controlled, 'baby sitter mentality' schools....and SAT test scores bear this out!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM

SAT scores are highly rigged. As for religious schools being better, let's have your stats please. And shall we consider not just exam results, eh? Shall we have a crack at value-added? Your comments amount to received wisdom. Anyone who really loves their kids would never send them to a school that is going to tell them a pack of lies and make them say prayers to the non-existent. That's not love, that's child abuse done with a cosy smile on its face.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:24 PM

Kudos to Carl Sagan for his literary triumph Contact.

His inclusion of the intrusive and even the terroristic religiocentric characters who feel a duty to distract or attack scientific discovery was a touch of genius. It is Another case of art portraying life of those who believe they are exclusively the high priest protectors of sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:41 PM

The school where I used to teach regularly received children transferred from the local RC school. They usually had some sort of problem. Usually behavioural. We managed to educate them successfully.

The RC school had very good SATs results.

It wasn't the only school, to be fair, where the distribution of results wasn't normal.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:55 PM

Steve, Here, look it up yourself..and take your pick!

GfS

P.S. I'm sure you'll not believe it and dismiss it..because one thing that your upbringing in Catholicism, in which you still resent, has left you with, is the exact same mindset!..For instance, when someone 'does you an 'injustice' (and I'm not disputing that!), and you carry that in you, and can't get over it, it's called 'emotional focus' (in the psyche sciences)..and though you might reject the people that 'did it to you'..BECAUSE you keep a focus on the 'perceived wrongs' you WILL end up being just like them!..True story!....Now the Catholics are no doubt, 'rigid and dogmatic' (another psyche term)..and though you reject their teachings, what damage that is left you, and you focus in on that, has left YOU rigid and dogmatic!! .....and just as closed-off mentally as they are...so much so, that your inner being is probably even more Catholic, that Joe Offer, whom you criticize, for being Catholic!!...and what I just laid down for you, is NOT particularly coming from a 'religious' standpoint, but straight psychology....you know, science, that you come off as putting your beliefs in...when it suits your explanations, and excuses for your attitudes toward others who don't believe, or disbelieve, as you do!!
Very Catholic mindset, wouldn't you say??
Now, instead of getting all huffy, as a re-action, take a moment and reflect on what I just laid out for you...it is accurate..and didn't cost you a penny....or 'tithe'...just a little bit of inward looking honesty.

Fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 01:25 PM

Colleges have radically downgraded the weight they give SAT'a
An essay could put the sat in the shade.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 02:24 PM

Well, there are other factors that the SAT's....check the link which I put up...it is the page with multiples of links.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:33 PM

In one post Steve says he has said 8 or more times that he don't know whether God exists, and then a few posts down rails against catholic schools "praying to the non existent" ! Seems he adapts depending on which particular hobby horse he wants to ride.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM

Well let me correct myself. How about "praying, in effect, to the 99.9999999%-certain non-existent." There, that should fix it. And, mods, when I rail against some clot who accuses me, insultingly, of being "huffy," you leave his post there and delete mine. Is Insanity your uncle? Pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:52 PM

Ooohhh......huffy, them's strong words eh, b'y


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:53 PM

Straws and grasping notions spring to mind.

I don't know if God exists but only in the same way I don't know if hobbits exist. I'm willing to complain if some nutter goes round telling impressionable children they do though..

What certainly does exist is my impersonation of Jesus on a rubber cross. Folk clubs between now and Easter around here will be given witness level evidence too.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM

I was replying to the starry linked exulted one with seven stars on his McDonalds badge.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 05:27 PM

What I said In the deleted post was that I don't like to be characterised as a bitter ex-Catholic by some cloth-eared eejit when I've said, time and time again, that my Catholic upbringing, unlike that of many other people, was relatively benign. I also said that anyone who really loves their kids would not send them to a school which was going to stuff their minds with a pack of lies. That's abuse, not love. And if this is seen as a deletion-worthy remark, I should like to know from whichever moderator friend of mine is at the helm why they think so, when this thread is replete with insanity inanity and a bunch of insulting idiocies from a Guest with multiple identities that are not being deleted. Thank you. And please don't tell me that you didn't delete it. I saw it up here in the thread before I went shopping.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 11:45 PM

Steve: "What I said In the deleted post was that I don't like to be characterised as a bitter ex-Catholic."

Well, you might 'not like it'..but it rings out, loud and clear.

Steve: " when I've said, time and time again, that my Catholic upbringing, unlike that of many other people, was relatively benign."

Benign?? Enough for you to have an immense 'emotional focus'..by the way, you might look that up, and read it with an open(if possible) mind.
The problem with those who suffer from 'emotional focus' is they really close off to wider possibilities, and you may find it rather limiting.
BTW, I'm not attacking you...if anything, I'm trying to free you, to a degree, of a self--limiting frame of a self-closing in...NOT good for creativity!

Steve: " I also said that anyone who really loves their kids would not send them to a school which was going to stuff their minds with a pack of lies."

They're not...they are looking for a better education...as far as what you term 'lies', I don't think useful spirituality comes from 'indoctrination', whether it be Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, or any one of a million that could come to mind. Any lasting spirituality comes from an experience..that cannot be taught, other than what the experience shows you...now, if you want to talk about 'religion', that's a whole different animal. Dogma comes through 'drilling in', but 'Love' comes from within, and melds with the one in the same, without. It is a union...sorta like an embrace of a conscious living force...things open up...but as I told you a couple of years ago, you have to ask for it honestly, and sincerely...NOT imagining the answer you'll get....and if you get nothing, then blow it off.....but, don't close off, raising the bar, to suit YOUR definition of what the answer has to look like. Be open...be open to a conscious, actual entity of 'Love'.
Oh, BTW, it might not be a 'pleasant' awakening...but once it happens, you won't be able to forget it!!.....so, be thankful.

Steve: "That's abuse, not love."

LOVE???..... How would you know??..I thought you didn't believe in God.

Hey, I hope the doors blow wide open for ya'!!.....the rest will make sense....understanding of the 'laws of physics' get wider...and you will be able to discern faith from fable, a LOT better, than throwing out the baby with the bathwater!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:27 AM

"Love? I thought you didn't believe in God?"

Some say good old Goofus... Just when you thought the thread was starting to settle into a debate worth getting into.

Love isn't about some abstract or other, it's about Kate Bush, Mrs Musket and pickled eggs. Ok, the Kate Bush bit may be unrequited but there again, this god character can't exactly show his love back, can he? Too busy organising plane and coach crashes, starving out polar bears and causing my daffodils to come out before Christmas. My garden is as confused as a Liverpool fan when they win.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:49 AM

Donuel,
a black hole is just a critically large rebounding star that will eventually explode in a colossal bang second only to a big bang type explosion.

No it is not, and if by "explode" you mean matter blasted out through the event horizon, that can not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 06:35 AM

I've never read such farraginous nonsense in my life, Guffers. Back I go to not reading your posts, I suppose. *Sigh*

"Farraginous" - Merriam-Webster's Word Of The Day this morning. Never did a word come in so useful so quickly. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 12:32 PM

Greg: "ve never read such farraginous nonsense in my life, Guffers. Back I go to not reading your posts, I suppose. *Sigh*"

My, what a Catholic point of view!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 12:33 PM

Ooops, typo

STEVE: "ve never read such farraginous nonsense in my life, Guffers. Back I go to not reading your posts, I suppose. *Sigh*"

My, what a Catholic point of view!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 12:52 PM

Steave
Stev
Stve
Eteve
Stove
Stave (typos for Steve)


Bill
Eric
George
Doreen
Elsie
Madonna
Bono
Greg (not typos for Steve)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 01:46 PM

Is he the baby or   the bathwater ?
I think you are differently wired too. You just need time to evolve.
The dark side may not be what you thought it was.






Keith consider new information before you knee your jerk. (poor jerk)

The dear old queen at..er the queer old Dean at Oxford has confirmed the findings of the dual zones of equilibrium that exist inside a black hole and the possible growth of a black hole that can destabilize said dense star inside a gravity well.

The slow motion explosion of a black hole doesn't start at the core of a rebounding black hole star. Two layers inward there is a zone where the outer mass of a BHS is equal to mass at its core.

(There is no actual singularity since neutrinos do not compress any more beyond a point.)

The other internal zone of equilibrium is the on between mass and centrifugal force.

hen a Black Hole star reaches a critical size it starts to want to expand.

Its expansion begins closer to the event horizon than the core.
Time is moving virtually at a stand still relative to us.

The slow explosions acts more lie a corkscrew pulling from the outside
and not pressure at the core. As the slow motion explosion of the extreme super massive black hole expands at these equilibrium zones grows eventually over billions of years the rebounding former black hole will glow.

The explosion will appear like concentric rings of light. Sometimes the appearance of spokes of a wheel will appear. The concentric circle explosion occurs as a result of the opposing push and pulls between the equilibrium zones and pulls from the core.

It is a beautiful sight 7 billion light years. At half a billion years the event is double the size of our full moon and is a awesome cosmic sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:04 PM

note: not all Black stars will explode
Even rebounding dark stars that will explode will not be entirely destroyed but will re collapse.

consult with Steven
Hawking he might agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 07:57 PM

First of all, Steve, though you claim not to read my posts, you just showed otherwise...so much for your words meaning ANYTHING!

Second, you claim to be 'Mr. Science'...but a scientist looks at ALL known possibilities before arriving at a conclusion, which, because of your 'rigid and dogmatic' approach, left over from your resentment toward anything that suggests a 'God', you CAN'T do that...which means your entire ' scientific thesis' is FLAWED!!
I got a better idea, (see title of thread), why don't you explore more possibilities beyond your limited view of what you think 'reality is, before you make such ridiculous edicts about physics, evolution, genetics, 'religions' and/or 'politics'. You're a fraud...but the worst thing is that you've defrauded yourself...and then try to belittle those who don't agree with your flawed, by emotional limitation, synopsis.
So, for a better idea....get over it will ya'. Your concepts of 'God' 'Love' and 'reality' are severely incomplete!
Time to do your homework!Fair enough????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 08:08 PM

Heheh...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:34 AM

If Keith began his last contribution with something along the lines of "According to our present understanding.." instead of some certainty that theoretical physics has somehow "got there" I might stop laughing at his "believe in science" stance.

Science is about exploring reality and joining the dots, not some faith based nonsense.

If you are going to amaze us with flights of fancy, at least do it in style like Donuel. I want a pint of what he's on.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 04:35 AM

I follow the latest developments in astrophysics, and Hawking lectured on black holes just a few weeks ago on R4.

I do not know where Donuel finds this stuff or if he makes it up himself, but it does not come from the scientists working in the field.
See if you can find it Musket.

"According to our present understanding.." Donuel's physics is tosh.


a rebounding black hole star.

No such thing. When a stellar core collapses, the outer shells fall on to it and rebound but it is the core that becomes a white dwarf, neutron star or black hole depending on the mass.

The explosion of a black hole he describes in detail has never been observed.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:06 AM

"Any lasting spirituality comes from an experience..that cannot be taught, other than what the experience shows you...now, if you want to talk about 'religion', that's a whole different animal. Dogma comes through 'drilling in', but 'Love' comes from within, and melds with the one in the same, without. It is a union...sorta like an embrace of a conscious living force...things open up...but as I told you a couple of years ago, you have to ask for it honestly, and sincerely...NOT imagining the answer you'll get....and if you get nothing, then blow it off.....but, don't close off, raising the bar, to suit YOUR definition of what the answer has to look like. Be open...be open to a conscious, actual entity of 'Love'."

Aaaahhh! Spirituality! Another of those specious qualities, like (religious) faith, which, when mentioned (or piously intoned in a hushed whisper) is supposed to make me bow my head, look all solemn and shuffle my feet, whilst making the mentioner appear to be all wise and sagacious. Instead, these days, I tend to think, "what a load of bollocks!"


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:47 AM

Some magical way, my response post to Steve's last post that read, "...Next!" got deleted......so let's fix it and make it clear," ...as he rolled his eyes, he exhaled, ...."Next".

Musket: "Science is about exploring reality and joining the dots, not some faith based nonsense."

Right! So, are you going to be selective, in your 'realities', or maybe consider that Light, Life, Consciousness, whether individual, collective, or a matter of 'sending and receiving' should not be explored?...how about the very life energy that animates the cells, from which we are made of, ignored??....Love, that creates purpose..not worth to understand??...explore??.....or how and why they may be working together, to give existence to everything that we perceive to exist???....or are we a bunch of random collection of molecules, that for no purpose, or no force behind it, somehow clung together, and made chaos????...(which would be ironic, because 'chaos' is not a unifying element)....is it??

..and according to you, none of this can fit the realm of being included, for 'research', because of some sort of 'mental selective blockage', that you erroneously label as, 'faith based'... 'Faith', in your context, is a mass fraud delusion for the purpose of giving people some common denominator, in which their behavior can be controlled...and and 'tithe' for the 'privilege' to 'participate'....something that creates, 'guilt' to overcome, and 'get free' from, so you get to claim membership to some sort of 'liberated hipness', and then, improvise some sort of 'excuse/logic'..., to appease your carnal perceptions...which might, in fact, be a little 'out of balance'..and inconsistent with how the structure actually works, as a whole.

...Perhaps if that IS researched, you find a marriage of the two...and a greater understanding of both...and the filling in of a lotta gaps....maybe even raising the awareness of what we REALLY have access to...maybe even re-define our own existence, and utilize powers and abilities never even imagined....but they are/were, right in front of our noses, the whole time......Gosh, might even re-define what we think we need to live....and what if ya' found out that you didn't even need your body, to be alive......but instead, life and consciousness some how joined together, and when it did, it looked 'human'??....What if you discovered that instead of being the 'all significant "ME"....we were just one cell, in a much larger organism??...joined by bonds, yet undefined...??

Absolutely none of that can possibly be.....because of your biases keeps you 'small-minded'....on your road to being obsolete??????

If you could follow all that, in a positive mind, then 'God Bless You!!'.....

...and if you couldn't follow it....well, I never claimed to be great at 'fixing stupid'!!

Worth looking into...like in a 'scientific way'...asking questions, never thought to be asked, before.

....worth getting answers!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:54 AM

Like I said Keith, start your posts with "according to present understanding" rather than "Hawking said it only the other day" and you might be less readily dismissed. Oh, and one of the most used words in his speech engine? "Apparently." One of the most used ready phrases? "It would appear.."

I still want a pint of what Donuel is on. His world is far less predictable, possibly more fun too. Mind you, Goofus could easily sing "Come inside, you silly bugger, come inside." I'll leave "selective reality" to Goofus's imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 06:11 AM

"So, are you going to be selective, in your 'realities', ..."

There appears to be only one "reality" ... and rather a lot of spurious, fictional ones.

" ... or are we a bunch of random collection of molecules, that for no purpose, or no force behind it, somehow clung together, ..."

Well, almost - apart from the "random" bit.

" 'Faith', in your context, is a mass fraud delusion for the purpose of giving people some common denominator, in which their behavior can be controlled...and and 'tithe' for the 'privilege' to 'participate'....something that creates, 'guilt' to overcome, ..."

Something like that.

"...and if you couldn't follow it....well, I never claimed to be great at 'fixing stupid'!!"

I don't think that I'm stupid because I struggle to follow a lot of incoherent tosh!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 06:13 AM

Musket: "I'll leave "selective reality" to Goofus's imagination."

'Selective reality"....is a result of being either too blocked by biased opinion...or just 'plain too lazy' to be imaginative, to even ask the right questions.....

....and the spout off about the 'results' of 'scientific process'...and settle for not asking 'Why'?

....or maybe you're just out of your depth.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 06:25 AM

That's it! I'm out of my depth. Spot on analysis Goofus.

When I was receiving a bit of training in mental health matters, the prof always told us never to encourage irrationality. When addressing Napoleon, you ask Fred how he is feeling, you never ask Mr Bonaparte how Josephine is getting on. You can't enter their world, you'd be out of your depth.

All coming back to me now 😎


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 06:53 AM

Musket,
Like I said Keith, start your posts with "according to present understanding" rather than "Hawking said it only the other day" and you might be less readily dismissed.

That goes without saying Musket.
No-one thinks I am a leading astrophysicist or historian! My knowledge is just the present understanding of physicists and historians.
As it changes, I will follow the new understanding.
Who are you to "dismiss" and "laugh" at the present understanding of Hawking and his fellow theorists, or historians?

Donuel's stuff is not "according to present understanding."
It is just his beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 06:57 AM

"No-one thinks I am a leading astrophysicist or historian! My knowledge is just the present understanding of physicists and historians."

First part, correct. Second part, from your postings on this forum I'd say you fall well short on both counts.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:09 AM

Intuition as well as observation is valued in science. Great discoveries in science have come from following hunches or making a "bold leap of faith," as Einstein did at the beginning of our century when he reached beyond the built-up body of evidence then at hand by means of intuition. Flashes of insight, dreams, or hunches are usually allowed in science because they can be tested. Most scientists are pragmatic at times and will on occasion seize upon a formula or a new discovery and begin to apply it according to the unwritten law "If it works use it. Never mind why. We'll figure that out later."

All scientific theories are built upon assumptions, as mentioned above. These foundational premises ought to be reexamined every once and awhile---since many times in the past tall palaces of speculation have been built on questionable and unproven assumptions. Scientific "advances" are built on the pioneering work of those who have gone before. If the pioneers made mistakes, or were short-sighted, their errors can easily be perpetuated for several generations. After a generation or two, the current scientific workers in a given field usually have "forgotten" or not taken the trouble to find out what assumptions went into the original work. Some have not bothered to ask whether or not the data base has changed or checked to see if the original assumptions are now suspect or erroneous. The problem is, yesterday's speculation becomes today's scientific dogma in many instances.

No tenured professor drawing a comfortable salary and enjoying a maturing successful career is likely to be objective---or even very rational---if a newcomer to his field questions the evidence and finds the professor's whole theory must be thrown out the window in the light of new evidence. Yet this process happens all the time, silently, as one generation fades away, new "authorities" come to power, and better theories take the place of the "primitive" notions that were held as absolutes in the previous generation. One has only to compare college science text books of today with those published a decade or two ago to see how quickly science changes its models, buries its mistakes, and quickly popularizes new theories as if they were well-established immutable facts.

    "Science is the only self-correcting human institution, but it is also a process that progresses only by showing itself to be wrong."--Astronomer Allan Sandage.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:47 AM

Steve,
Second part, from your postings on this forum I'd say you fall well short on both counts.

On WW1 history no-one found a historian with different views.
You will not find anything wrong with my physics either.
You are just making baseless assertions again Steve.
(or are you going to justify this time?)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:50 AM

Oh fuck. We are back to Gen Melchard...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:54 AM

Predictions have to be based on existing knowledge. The people who make such leaps be it a Jules Verne or Albert Einstein do admit they saw a validity not based on facts alone but as though knowledge was captured in the wind.

I swear to Einstein and   a dice playing God that rebounding stars of the gravity well type exist, not only in the works of current respected cosmologists but in the minds of followers of the standard model followers. I can source my material and authors. Other predictions I can not. A slow glow of a bound in time rebounding star as it rebounds? We may see one in our lifetime or not. They are here, they are queer but rebounding dark stars are nothing to fear. When it fits it fits, even when you have to take the sleeves in or tailor the waist. Get used to knowing this and you will be on the cutting edge of cosmology, the queen of science.

Personally I like the theory of a missing unseen dimension of space that balances the space time with which we are familiar. It helps me to understand 3 mysteries at the same time. But how to test is the problem. Clever minds, not mine, are required.




Gfs said better than a hundred posts of mine how an invested tenured scientist is sometimes a one trick pony. We are all creatures of perspective but when you sometimes take multiple perspectives into account we can assemble a whole from the parts that is different and possibly correct.

"Intuition as well as observation is valued in science. Great discoveries in science have come from following hunches or making a "bold leap of faith," as Einstein did at the beginning of our century when he reached beyond the built-up body of evidence then at hand by means of intuition. Flashes of insight, dreams, or hunches are usually allowed in science because they can be tested" etc

Even if cut and pasted it goes to the heart of the matter and could not have been better considered.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 10:47 AM

I swear to Einstein and   a dice playing God that rebounding stars of the gravity well type exist,

No they do not.
A rebound occurs in some supernovae, but that is the birth of a black hole (or neutron star) not the end of one.

in the works of current respected cosmologists
Names and quotes?

Large black holes do not explode. Matter can not escape.
They can "evaporate" through Hawking radiation, but only disappear in a puff of radiation when very small.

According to present understanding, that is. (OK Musket?)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:31 AM

An improvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM

I already gave a possible explanation based on multiple equilibrium zones and critical mass. Of course ignore and repeat, but that has been done before. A way out of a black hole is not a new notion either. Neutrinos do it and that is what can expand due to several factors.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:39 AM

Yes it is, no it isn't
Now look I came here for an argument.
no you didn't
an argument is not an automatic nay saying...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:45 AM

No. That isn't argument, that's contradiction.

The Cleese principle upholds.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 01:02 PM

No it doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 01:11 PM

Yes it does


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 01:30 PM

A way out of a black hole is not a new notion either.

Really? Who says?

Neutrinos do it

They certainly do not! Nothing does.

(According to present understanding)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:13 PM

Yes they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:48 PM

Perhaps you will support this assertion Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM

There is nothing about us that can escape the norms of nature, we would have discovered it by now. Unless it is undiscovered. To be extraordinarily free is the law of nature within our brains.

Our free investigations are determined by the rich and fleeting interactions among the billions of neurons in our brain which is you.
The primate can see and do like a mirror but does not process and surmise the better of two non intuitive choices. A monkey can not point to an object to make others look.

This strange multi colored world that we explore, where space is granular and a duality, time does not exist, and things are virtual, is not something that separates us from our true selves, for this is what our natural curiosity reveals to us about where we live. About which we ourselves are made, and when we are immersed in curiosity, joy or suffering we are being part of the universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:10 PM

Until someone has the curiosity or ambition to google black hole neutrino factory and then reads ;
***********
Seven Lessons in Physics
by Carlo Rovelli
translated by Simon Carnell and Erica Segre
Riverhead books NY 2016
Chapter Grains of Space.
************
,there is nothing to say

If you are not curious you may as well be dead
'Albert Einstein'


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:25 PM

I should have been specific about whose understanding..😂


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:14 PM

pictures of slow mo explo black holes

Plank stars. new and mind blowing


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 04:34 AM

I explained that black holes evaporate through hawking radiation.
The HR and evaporation increases as the mass decreases, so it is a small black hole when it finally vanishes in a puff of HR.

Someone (single obscure paper) has said such an evaporating bh might disappear in the form of a "planck star" and we have some artists impressions of what it might look like if did.

Large black holes, as I said, do not explode (according to current understanding.)

Black holes do produce neutrinos, but from infalling matter and/or flares, not from inside the event horizon.
No matter can escape that.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 08:21 AM

All things pass; old notions, incorrect hawking predictions#2, Newtonian space, inflation from anti gravity, me and even intransigence.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 09:02 AM

It is not easy assembling new ideas or analyzing new ideas.
But it can be fun.
Looking at a new idea combined with other over looked factors is like an adventure.
Just denying the new by insisting the old is all there is, does not verify the old or clarify the new.

One has to analyze the new, for example, by considering how two equilibrium zones can effect an energy vector of sufficient force to change the direction of space time. We already know that the velocity of space time is changeable.

But changing its direction? This is a new idea.

That all other stars rebound to some degree is an old idea.

It is hard but rewarding to prove an idea new or not.

The adventure is not about yes or no. iT IS ABOUT A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT OR REASON BASED ON DATA regarding the new.

Those are FUN. Lets have some fun...I bet Dave could, maybe you too.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 10:01 AM

Thought experiment: #1.2

Draw four Concentric circles.
.
the inner circle is the core of neutrons or neutrino plank star

the second innermost circle is an equilibrium zone is where the gravitational pull is equalized between the inner material and outer material.

the third circle is where centrifugal force is balanced with gravitational force.

The outermost circle is an event horizon.


Material falling in toward the core accelerate from the event horizon. When the material reaches the first equilibrium zone it merely coasts from inertia.

The material then begins to accelerates to the send equilibrium zone and then coasts again due to inertia.

Reaching the core a rebound process should begin with no place to go past a near infinitely packed core.

All the core needs to o is have just a tiny bit more energy heading outward to overcome inward falling material all the while heating up even more.

going outward the equilibrium zones act in a similar way as it does for material falling in.

We can begin to see a pulsating pumping action spreading out ward.

NOW lets look for real examples of this pumping action making concentric pulses of energy heading out ward from a black hole.


This   rebounding action has to heat up the entire black hole.


AS ALL THIS HAPPENS bear in mind that the space time gravity inside the event horizon has slowed relative time down to next to no forward movement of time. If there is even a little movement the slowness of time is not 0. So it can expand.

Now make your own thought experiment or explore this one. If you can confirm or deny this model in less than a day... you might b a red neck - just kidding. take your time.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 12:03 PM

Donuel, I have no objection to you making up theories and hypothesising about what might be.
This started because you made false assertions about what is.

You stated that neutrinos can escape through the EH.
They can not.
You stated,
"a black hole is just a critically large rebounding star that will eventually explode in a colossal bang second only to a big bang type explosion."

That is not what a black hole is, and black holes do not explode, though they may evaporate by the emission of radiation, not matter.

What you stated as fact has no basis in current knowledge, not even in the planck star hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 12:25 PM

A bit like reli...

Naw, shooting fish in a barrel.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 04:32 PM

All things pass; old notions, incorrect hawking predictions#2, Newtonian space, inflation from anti gravity, me and even your 3 false statements. If you can take a hint take it . If not why keep squawking? Just declare yourself king of the mountain and enjoy being right where you are without even looking past your rule set in stone.

I am still full of questions and you have all the answers. Be happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 08:36 PM

You can lead a horse's *** to water but you can't make it think

The book Keith says doesn't exist

As soon as you boys write your best seller let me know.

I recommend this book to anyone who likes to think clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 09:51 PM

"I am still full of questions and you have all the answers. Be happy."

Religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Musket
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 04:31 AM

You know, in that sentence, Donuel had our Keith weighed up better than I ever could.

Power to your smoked haddock of aircraft wing flaps Donuel!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 04:48 AM

I did not say the book did not exist and I did not make any false statements.
Nothing Rovelli says contradicts anything I have said or supports what you said.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 05:24 AM

. Filling in the gaps with mystic nonsense

That is what Donuel does, and nothing wrong with that.
It is just that if his understanding of what is already known is flawed, it detracts from the theories he builds on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Musket
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 06:23 AM

I understand that Keith. I see how you made the same mistake with WW1 history 🤓


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 07:47 AM

I made no mistake.
Your mistake was believing your knowledge of history superior to the history books and the historians who research and write them.
"Those historians should know better" you said.

All I did was to repeat what I read.
I was ridiculed for that by people who had read nothing written for at least twenty years!

Likewise astrophysics and cosmology.
I follow the debate but do not consider myself qualified to contribute.
All have said here is mainstream current understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 08:04 AM

Some of us have read quite a lot on the subject over the past 20 years.

Yet another of your ill considered statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 08:42 AM

You were unable to find a current historian who held different views to me on the points I made.
You only mentioned two recent books you had read, and neither did.

You claimed that one did by selectively quoting and editing what it really said, and then I exposed your dishonesty.

You also faked some quotes of historians to make them say the opposite of the actual quotes.
I found the originals and exposed that dishonesty too.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Musket
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 09:19 AM

🐮💩

🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 09:47 AM

Talking out of your anal orifice again Professor.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 11:54 AM

I am no scientist but, I think, have intelligence enough to figure things out like evidence versus belief.

There is very strong evidence that if you kick a piece of shit it creates a stink and gets your shoes dirty. My belief is that this phrase, while hackneyed, is a good analogy for what is happening here. There is no evidence that that shit is aware of the damage it is doing to peoples shoes and delicate nostrils or if it is doing any good for the local fauna (last bit is so I don't get in trouble with Steve!). My belief is that peoples shoes and nostrils would remain unassailed from that quarter if they stopped kicking said shit. I am trying my best to give it up and, to date, instances of my footwear and nasal passages being attacked have reduced considerably.

On the balance of probabilities I would highly recommend other people try it. Trouble is that, as the shit is blissfully unaware that it is no longer being kicked, it continues to try and get up peoples noses.

C'est la vie as we say in Yorkshire...


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 12:31 PM

"There is no evidence that that shit is aware of the damage it is doing to peoples shoes and delicate nostrils or if it is doing any good for the local fauna (last bit is so I don't get in trouble with Steve!)"

Eat shit. 150,000,000 flies can't be wrong. (Toilet wall, Imperial College union bar, 1969)

The other bon mot I remember from the same location, inside the cubicle this time, on the door in front of you as you sat, was "Shit hard. It's a long way to the refectory."


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 01:50 PM

Talking out of your anal orifice again Professor.

No.
Would you like the links to prove it Rag?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Musket
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 01:51 PM

On the tomato thread, we are discussing language terms and this thread can learn from it too.

Be careful talking about kicking shit Dave, cos over in Godblessamericaandallwhosailinhere, a shit kicker is a rather unsophisticated redneck yokel. Co Messiahs certainly don't fit into that category..


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 02:07 PM

Indeed, Musket. Good job I don't do it anymore! I can still smell the results though :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 03:30 PM

I LOVE THIS IDEA

If the lovable idea that started this thread had been about the harvesting of stem cells from your own eye to grow a brand new lens to cure cataracts , instead ABOUT EVOLUTION .
musket steve and keith would not have gotten schpilkies and kevetched for two weeks to make a lovely secular idea all about religious intolerance by religion or not.

Actually the idea of single lifetime evolution is 100 years old and began in Russe.

The advances in eye care have grown and offer many new alternative procedures to the old cut and replace with plastic method.


The metaphor above regarding human waste did occur to me but in my mind was from dogs that got on my shoe.

close this thread? why not? Who cares? Only trolls care.


ALL THAT WILL BE LOST ARE NEW IDEAS AND ESTABLISHED PROCEDURES WHICH TO THE anti idea Taliban would be an explosive victory
but no concern to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 04:15 PM

Keep up the good work, Donuel. Even though I only understood about 50% of the postings it is still an enjoyable thread. Use a peg on your nose ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 06:27 PM

It is not my intention to make things sound difficult. It is my problem with language itself. It is sort of like stuttering.
So I abbreviate to the point of poetry instead of prose.

Amos suggested I find the link and post that but I need practice writing. But I am sure I can make my observations 99% clear with an appropriate link.

What I learned during this thread was about Plank stars in slow motion.

What is cool is being able to see quantum movement with the naked eye by bouncing drops of silicon on a vibrating medium of water.

What is speculative is how a plank star may flow against the tide of a gravity well with the help of equilibrium zones ( that was my only new idea ) right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:14 AM

I admire your ability to weave existing knowledge into original ideas Donuel.

Is it OK for me to politely point out any misconceptions that appear in your work.
That is all I have been doing.

May I request that you do not refer to me abusively as "poor jerk" and is it necessary to be so abusive about people's deeply held beliefs just because you do not share them?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:30 AM

btw, I share you contempt for the shit talkers (literally) who tried to get the thread closed.
Pity they were not deleted, but at least the thread stayed open and the discussion can continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:09 AM

Who has mentioned shit talkers? And what is a literal shit talker? Is there any evidence for the phenomena of people (literally) talking shit? Surely you mean metaphorically? It is important to get these things right you know!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:24 AM

Shit talkers? Did you see that? That was almost clever, that.

I suppose when "deeply held beliefs" are insulting at the intellectual level or impose their nonsense on others, "poor jerk" is letting them off lightly.

I don't get it. When I try suggesting that believing in fairy tales and superstition denotes a lack of reason and intelligence, Keith takes umbrage. Yet when you ask him further he reckons it's bollocks too. He rattles on about Big Bang and other heretic notions that contradict biblical belief but when it comes to being sanctimonious, halle fucking lullia.

Having problems separating belief from believing is your problem Keith, not the grown ups. You have a pop at Donuel for injecting bollocks into reality but don't notice the wonderful irony of your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:45 PM

If you are saying we have a failure to communicate, I agree.

Science is moving so fast your objections are wasting time. Delay is the weapon against us all. Think global warming.

I love the idea of diversity for those with a fair degree of scientific sophistication.

Some of theses people could be religious or not, perfectionists or not.
Some of these folks think in pictures like an interacting geometry, some only think in math. Some are visionaries who see great distances in directions where only time goes with the help of funding.

Because I think in interacting pictures does not make me a mystic shaman witch doctor, and you knew that.

Of course engaging in scientific inquiries is welcome however there was not one mention of thought experiment 1.2 to expand, point out paradox or even that it was proposed. We all know your motive is not scientific beyond a pedestrian level.

I would have seen evidence by now. There would not have been pages of nyyah nyyah nyaah.

I know America has lost its finesse and nuance centuries ago. But I expected a bit more decorum from the land of Newton. Asburgers and
autism would be a relief but one dimensional critics are boring.

You may personally be half decent blokes despite the mental images you presented to me. you will have to learn a new style of presenting, listening , stepping back and question again prior to a judgement that was singularly based on an original assumption.
Besides
The standard model had nothing to do with 1.2
it was all general relativity

If you are interested in forgetting all the mudcat nagging habits of the past I am willing to try to politely interact.Most of my life was based on assault me once and interaction stops forever, but that was adolescent. I have many more survival tactics now. If you can not have a overarching mind set of COMPETITION to the end and victory, I can not participate. Its OK not to care .


There are roles and personalities as varied in science as there are in music. Maybe the role of the disgraced and the race to disgrace fellow musicians is not as openly practiced as you guys play in the science or BS section.

In other words the need to SHOOT THE FISH IN THE BARREL is a mentality that does not exist in real science.com threads.

Worst of all you scare off people might like to join a discussion of questions and that is bullying


By the way, the disgraced role I wrote about is usually about the guy who supports and defends ideas or tech that is defunct for a lifetime.
Being that recalcitrant is something no one here is all about.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:07 PM

Very well said. As I mentioned earlier I did not understand a lot of the posts. Not due to any communication issues but simply because I am no scientist. I thoroughly enjoyed the concepts put forward without a need to know that it may or may not be within our current knowledge. Rather like science fiction in some ways I suppose! Not that I am saying it is fiction. Or fact. Simply that we should keep an open mind. Only by doing so can we progress.

In my humble opinion that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:24 PM

Jules Verne's perspective of sci fi did and does progress science.
THE ETHICS expert, philosopher, data collecting, astro physicist, the visionary, the incorrect, the puzzled, the newbie and all of us including the policy maker and politician are respondsible and need to get involved. We are at some critical turning points regarding the new possible. Diversity is good. but all nay sayer and no play, takes our future out of our hands.

Sci is of course credible, in great hands. I t a valid way of thinking when true science is involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:33 PM

This post is mostly aimed at Donuel, because a couple of reasons.

First, It seems apparent that his musicality, is a bit more 'depthy', and serious, than the run of the mill trolls, who just want to spout and argue unlearned 'opinions'.

Second, Because his reply back to me showed more of an openness, to 'consideration'.

Third, because in his reply, he included this: "Predictions have to be based on existing knowledge. The people who make such leaps be it a Jules Verne or Albert Einstein do admit they saw a validity not based on facts alone but as though knowledge was captured in the wind."....

...and being as you termed it, in that manner, and are a musician of deeper understanding, I give you this(which I've posted several times in Mudcat, but nobody seems to get it)....

Ludwig van Beethoven: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
― Ludwig van Beethoven


"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Don't only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"My misfortune is doubly painful to me because I am bound to be misunderstood; for me there can be no relaxation with my fellow-men, no refined conversations, no mutual exchange of ideas, I must live alone like someone who has been banished."
― Ludwig van Beethoven


"Music is the mediator between
the spiritual and the sensual life."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

That all being said,....(or quoted)...YOU might have a different perception, of what is considered to be (quoting Ludwig), 'divine' 'Spiritual', 'ideas', 'higher revelations',...and even 'God'...

Unfortunately, when this subject is brought up, those with a limited capacity to understand, cannot differentiate between a 'God force', and a 'religion'..being as their only point of reference, is what has been handed down, and rebelled against, when the Roman Empire, co-opted their government, and 'pagan rituals' and idols, with their interpretations(out of convenience), with an encroaching, popular, power called Christianity...that was threatening their ideology.

So, with that in mind, AND distancing the subject AWAY from 'religion', this may interest(even fascinate)you....

'Good' IDEA.....'Logos'(Greek)...Word used only one time, in the Bible

...and after this one I've got another link,(video), that may be of interest and consideration to you.

Anybody is welcome, but I'm not into entering a banal argument will small minded, emotionally disturbed, troll-like creatures.

Regards!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:57 PM

Gfs You should like this

Ancient Greece had its mathematicians who looked and found rules in nature. One of those rules was a ratio in which all plants obey when placing one emerging leaf above another so to equally spread access o the sun. Avogadro's number. Tis ratio was found again in the golden mean, Fibonacci's sequence. Even sculptures used the raio and called it the golden curve and still has universal appeal.

I took Beethoven's ninth Ode to Joy and other close knit themes and applied the golden mean ratio to the notes used. I had help from Catters above the line and compared Beethoven's melody to Fibbinoc's sequence from the scale that was posted in Midi.

They matched perfectly.

Beethoven delved deep with the rules of nature to construct graet and timeless themes. He did go deep in his theory and his silence to bring us the secrets of God, as he would put it


But gimme tight two part harmony and I'm happy. I'm not that deep or capable.
88888888888888888888888

Today I think sci fi is less than the greats of last century.

I/m not a great reader so I should probably be better informed on what I am missing.

I do not care for Marvel sci fi or action crap. Some of it is as bad as Godzilla vs. St. Mother Theresa. I know Inter stellar tried hard and it felt like it. Maybe producers of sci fi today don't know of the world's that were penned 25 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:15 PM

So, Donuel, the bits of Beethoven quotes not only made sense to you, you had further insights, that not only was I not aware of, you took it further.....AND..there IS a consistency, with God, music, science and awareness, that normally does not even get recognized, but delved into.

'God', they turned into a 'religion', instead of what it really is...
'Music', they're commercialized to appeal to the sensuality and frustrations...and aimed at an adolescent audience....
'Science', they dodge around the WHOLE, because they have to make room for 'theories'....and don't see that their 'theories' are more likened to 'religious faith'...which they dodge around!
Awareness', because of their limitations to consider a wider view...just to accommodate false and/or incomplete premises, in which they've proceeded to build upon!!

You OK with that??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:53 PM

Noyes

You are often more wordy than I. I attribute Beethoven's notion of God in the brackets of his era and as the Church funds for his art.

Every endeavor needs the trinity; Is it real, is it possible in time and how and who will fund it? Funds are the face of reality in religion that should never be forgotten.

'Bach Escher and Godel' the book, deals with what you are saying in depth.

There is a state of mind that is God like. It is a state of epiphany that is hard to achieve. For example I listened to Mozart for a thousand hours until a tall Asian woman played a Mozart violin concerto with an understanding of far more than music and for the first time I UNDERSTOOD THE GENIUS of Mozart's world.

I did not expect it but I was open to it. We can not share our personal accomplishments. We can not share every perspective, BUT WE CAN share experiences or at least their retelling.
Listen to those and take for yourself what you can use.

People feel that way about literature but I am less attuned to their gifts of perception. Indeed I am immersed in the emotions in literature but not the nuts and bolts of reading it.

Technology has helped. Before spell check here, no one ever responded to my posts or sent a pm. I must have looked idiotic in my attempt to write a coherent sentence.

So lets hope the sharing of experiences gets a boost by everyone who is curious.


I just had a random thought about the Republican elephant and all the blind candidates touching and describing what the creature is.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:23 PM

Why did people who didn't even know catspaw personally love him so much?

As a story teller he shared experiences. Funny ones and some full of pathos.

We don't have a full blown story teller here anymore.

Maybe some of us could try.
Sure there are great scenarios though the eyes of rapier
The iambic pentameter of Amos and the wild character imaginings of Little Hawk

There are some professional Historians who each have valid perspectives.

Thee was a time when BS was a richer place and can be again with a old/new perspective.

now enough about you, me and us, lets get back to it, but this time...
with feeling, one two three four..


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:47 PM

Donuel, OK......Here is a video(s), that I was going to post for ya'....AGAIN, this should NOT be viewed 'religiously'...though the subject, is one of 'religious bastardization'! What I found fascinating was the scientific research, and the PROCESS, to come to a 'reasonable conclusion' to the matter. You might want to not 'jump the gun', till you watch it in its full entirety. One thing I noticed, was the demeanor of the researchers involved. At first, you don't see it...but as the video moves on, towards its final stages, they begin to have an aire of, 'We KNOW something....."

This is NOT a 'religious' video...but........in fact the 'clergy' interviewed did NOT seem to know for sure...

Regards!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:57 PM

PS

You can't always get what you want by the Rolling Stones is another melody that uses just the beginning notes of the golden mean ratio.

This land is your land
and A lot more folk songs.

After the first 5 notes of the Fibonacci series the relationship of notes, allowing for octave reductions, sound very Avant Gard in their interaction. I bet some music theory experts know more about this than my limited experimentation showed me.

Its probably an algorithm in auto composing computers, some of which are very good at Bach.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 11:23 PM

Donuel: " I bet some music theory experts know more about this than my limited experimentation showed me."

I know an EXCELLENT one....I'll run it by him...along with your wonderful posts.

Don't you LOVE it when science and 'religion' come together??..'in a most profound way'??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 11:43 PM

Ptheewy. Sorry I had a word in my mouth.

Isn't it harmonious that a devout atheist like myself can co exist with religious conceptualists?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:25 AM

It may add new meaning to the dimension of Beethoven's statements.... NOT 'religion' based!!!

Ludwig van Beethoven: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Don't only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"My misfortune is doubly painful to me because I am bound to be misunderstood; for me there can be no relaxation with my fellow-men, no refined conversations, no mutual exchange of ideas, I must live alone like someone who has been banished."
― Ludwig van Beethoven


"Music is the mediator between
the spiritual and the sensual life."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

That all being said,....(or quoted)...YOU might have a different perception, of what is considered to be (quoting Ludwig), 'divine' 'Spiritual', 'ideas', 'higher revelations',...and even 'God'...

Not a matter of being an atheist....a matter of tapping into the unseen!!

Just 'consider' it.

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 02:39 AM

Donuel, for the sake of expanding understanding, I felt compelled to point out to you, that you have contradicted yourself, from you're earlier post, about....wait, here are some of your quotes....

"There is nothing about us that can escape the norms of nature, we would have discovered it by now. Unless it is undiscovered."

"If you are not curious you may as well be dead
'Albert Einstein'"

"All things pass; old notions, incorrect hawking predictions#2, Newtonian space, inflation from anti gravity, me and even intransigence"

"It is not easy assembling new ideas or analyzing new ideas.
But it can be fun.
Looking at a new idea combined with other over looked factors is like an adventure.
Just denying the new by insisting the old is all there is, does not verify the old or clarify the new."

"I love the idea of diversity for those with a fair degree of scientific sophistication."

"Some of theses people could be religious or not, perfectionists or not."

...and finally(from just this page alone): "By the way, the disgraced role I wrote about is usually about the guy who supports and defends ideas or tech that is defunct for a lifetime.
Being that recalcitrant is something no one here is all about."

...except clinging to a self-imposed 'atheistic' decision, that excludes any possibilities that may change old perceptions of older misinterpretations??????

Regards....just hoping you may open up your vision wider....it won't bite you!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: I Love this Idea
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 05:22 PM

They have yet to close this thread. The age of miracles has yet to pass.


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