BS: Norway Leads The Way

Subject: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:17 AM

A short but interesting article regarding belief, or not, in a god.

None Belief

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:31 AM

Meanwhile Icelanders are converting on masse to the worship of ancient Sumerian gods:

Zuism and taxes

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:10 AM

Meanwhile in Scotland, parents are more likely to name their baby after a Game of Thrones character than after the Virgin Mary:

http://www.britishbabynames.com/blog/top-names-in-scotland/

The only good news for religion in that list is that Joseph, Noah amd Muhammad are doing okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:12 AM

I was hoping this thread was going to be about men's downhill slalom.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:20 AM

If you asked me whether I believed in God, I'd tell you that you were asking the wrong question.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:53 AM

Another way to go is diversity.
For example I am Zoroastrian my wife worships Diane and I made my son who was on line too much, Amish.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:57 AM

How do you make somebody Amish if you aren't Amish yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:05 AM

Well ........... you try to make them an AM and if you get close they will be AMish

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:08 AM

". . . I made my son who was on line too much, Amish."

Good one, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:45 AM

You've been listening to too much Clue, Raggytash. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:57 AM

Clue ?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:01 PM

Sorry I Haven't A Clue. Lots of "-ish" gags on there in recent times.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:31 PM

To ask people if they "believe in a God" is like asking them to pick up their last thought, carry it across the room, weigh it, and tie a piece of string around it.

There's no point in even answering such a question, if you intend to give it any serious thought before you answer. If you just want to deal in your instant, superficial reactions to conventional mental symbols and familiar words, however, you can of course then answer it...but that doesn't mean your answer will really mean much. It will just indicate your individual reaction to a vague and common symbol of something most people don't think about much.

It's like asking a person if Coke is "the real thing"! :) It is if you think it is. It isn't if you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:44 PM

Oh I don't know...


No.


Didn't hurt. No thunderbolts

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:55 PM

I suppose they could have couched the question in lots of qualifiers, but I suspect most people have a pretty good idea of what is being asked , at least in the western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 05:25 PM

Steve - 0720 am

What is the right question?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 05:35 PM

A question that an answer is possible for. I neither believe in God nor don't believe in God. Belief is for fools who are suckered in by people who tell you how virtuous it is to believe without seeing. The rational among us rely on evidence and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:37 PM

Yes....we rely on evidence, observation, and reason, and we therefore believe in whatever is clearly confirmed by our own experience....and all the rest is hypothetical, therefore it is neither believed...or not believed...it is simply considered as a possibility. Since no one here can either prove or disprove that "God" exists (whatever they think that means)...it's not a case of believing that God exists or believing that God doesn't exist, it's a case of wondering if if might be so. Therefore the question "Do you believe that God exists?" is pointless, since there simply is no way of either proving or disproving the proposition. It remains nothing but a matter of opinion or emotional preference. It's subjective...like believing you're in love with someone, for example...and how you define "being in love" is a totally unique experience of your own that no one else is equipped to prove or disprove one way or the other. Also, the fact that a majority of people in a nation think something is so is not necessarily any kind of proof that it is so...regardless of whether the majority say they "believe in God" or say that they do not "believe in God". Again, it's just their majority opinion. If this makes you happy, because they see it your way...well, whoopee! :) Fools and wise men alike all delight in other people seeing things their way, but they can all still be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:18 PM

I believe in electric guitars, breasts, and fannies [UK version]...

As far as I'm concerned they definitely exist.

Not sure I'd go as far as saying I worship them... but.. they are pretty much amongst the best things in life.

I settled into this belief system after many years as a student of politics, culture, moral philosophy, concepts of belief, and other very clever stuff..

I even got a year or so into an MA before abandoning it
in the realisation that a life devoted to these simple esssential beliefs would be more rewarding and harmonious...😜

.. and that was 3 decades ago.....

I quite like the look of Norway from what I've seen of it on the telly....

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:29 PM

Well I don't "believe" what my experience tells me. I need more than that. Also, I have no interest whatsoever in proving or disproving anything. If you tell me something that I don't see as self-evident, I want evidence. It's a really simple approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:35 AM

Yeah but in Norway, you have to buy wines and spirits from government owned outlets, a bit like back in the '80s when I used to go on business "behind the iron curtain." Norway had never been there but they picked that idea up..

Naw, I've got family there. When we visited last, I offered to cook one day, popped down the supermarket and as I was cooking a fish pie for eight people, it occurred to me that I had spent £130.00 on four cod fillets, ditto smoked haddock, half as much salmon and a handful of prawns. It further occurred to me, from talking to the chef at a restaurant in Capetown the previous year that Norway nets so much fish they export tons of the stuff to South Africa. Taking the piss...

Glad to see you note fannies in the UK sense. Can't have our resident homophobe hating you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 09:07 AM

On the other thread Steve qualified his not knowing, when I questioned it, by saying he was 99.9 etc sure he don't exist. Here , he does not qualify that he almost certainly and conclusively rejects a belief in a God.    He further claims that believing is against reason and evidence,   However, the Christian creationist position has nothing in it that opposes observational science , apart from the miraculous which is an addition to how the world normally works and not a denial of it.   Steves belief system however, necessitates believing things that according to observationaly testable science cannot happen unless there is SOMEONE to make it happen. Not only so, but devotion to that belief system causes him to reject the occams razor like conclusions of science that don't tally with that belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:03 AM

Miracles are an addition?

Anything that can't be explained by a scientific approach is make believe. If it is used to impress people it is no more than a mere lie.

Of course your bible could be true. So could Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Asimov's Foundation and Harry Potter. Ron Weasley's flying Ford Anglia and the prophet's flying carpet have more in common than just levitation...

The odds are similar too...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:49 AM

the Christian creationist position has nothing in it that opposes observational science

Absolutely and totally untrue. Unless, once again, you don't have the faintest idea what "science" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:27 PM

There are many things between heaven and earth which cannot be explained by science.

I have experienced telepathy(verified) several times. Science does not acknowledge mental telepathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:37 PM

I too seem to have experienced what some may call Telepathy.

I have a theory to possibly explain it.

Prior to humans being able to communicate verbally or by the written word we must have been able to communicate in some form.

If we had an ability to communicate by telepathy we would no longer need that ability once we had developed language.

So once we had learned to communicate verbally we lost the ability to communicate telepathically.

Evolution in action perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM

Telepathy - is it WiFi or Bluetooth ?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:51 PM

If you want belief and religion, just mention Brexit. Then you'll see reason departing and incantation creeping in to its place.
Which by a weird set of logic brings us back to Norway. Sure to be quoted in that context.

And telepathy is a myth. But you knew I was going to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 04:24 PM

Mr Red...:0)...nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM

Nothing is impossible. Not even God and telepathy. But without evidence I have time for neither. If anyone here thinks they have evidence for telepathy, let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 05:58 PM

I have experienced telepathy(verified)

By whom or by what?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 06:41 PM

If he's had his telepathy scientifically verified, Greg, he'll be the first human ever to have had that done. I'll do you a favour, akenaton, and let you know where the bar is set. We want to hear of properly conducted experiments, with controls of course, that have been carried out by trained scientists, with independent observers in this case I should think, which have been peer-reviewed, and, most importantly, which we can replicate to give similar results to the ones you claim. Fire away. We're all ears. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:07 PM

Nothing is impossible.

Lately, finding an intelligent Republican comes close, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:17 PM

Or an honest Tory. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:59 PM

I always felt uncomfortable when I heard of Christian groups talking of "winning souls for Christ." To me, it never felt like that was what it was all about.

So, today I see a thread on Mudcat that's more-or-less about "winning souls for atheism."

That shouldn't be what it's all about, either - but the Usual Suspects will most certainly do their little dance and disagree.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM

Again Joe, you are confusing what you see as "alternative" with simple "it doesn't explain anything and offers even less." Most people with religious conviction think lack of religious creed is a creed in itself, a replacement.

I for one don't need to find something to serve as proxy for my lack of interest in stamp collecting but I'm sure philatelists would say "what isn't there to enjoy?"

Telepathy does have a scientific base by the way. (Or at least a plausible explanation derived from trials.) A combination of suggestion, coincidence, shared reasoning and presumption. Medical students often have a paper to write on the subject, (combined with certainty with no apparent cause,) showing the "mind over matter" power of the brain. As well as the foundation study of psychology, it is valuable in learning how to understand where patients are coming from when certainty defies reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:31 AM

Another one for God.

"Disorders Center at Newton Wellesley Hospital in Boston, Mass., explains.
The questions, "Why do we dream?" or "What is the function of dreaming?" are easy to ask but very difficult to answer. The most honest answer is that we do not yet know the function or functions of dreaming."

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 04:33 AM

Except we know it is internal to neuro stimuli, so external make believe such as "God" doesn't enter into it.

Mind you, both dreaming and God are examples of enthusiastic neuro activity, but Newton Wellesley is a recognised concern, it's people often publishing in New England Journal of Medicine, BMJ, Lancet etc, so I very much doubt God as a variable enters into their hypothesis or outcome. If it did, it means they have shown evidence for a God as more than imagination, which would be a miracle in itself...

Ascribing the unknown to God is something peasants used to do before education invoked reason. Nowadays there tends to be one in every village

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 04:33 AM

Why do we dream ?

Because it's the one place the wife can't catch us.

Unless the dream is about the wife turning up and catching us.

Then that'd be a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,cosmicpunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:08 AM

... and even if it could be imagined that at a sub atomic level, dreams are a phenomena of the individual brain tapping into a 'collective conciousness' beyond time and space....
why would that explanation require a deity as a foundation ???? 😕


pass the mushroomz.... I'll just have 30 this time....

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,trippypunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:25 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4692359.stm

Dr Russell Newcombe, senior lecturer in drug use and addiction at Liverpool John Moores University:

"There has always been an underlying interest in alternative experiences and states of consciousness but that has risen a lot more in the past 10 years or so," he says.

"It goes with that whole section of our youth culture today which is interested in getting experiences, travelling the world and doing risky sports.

"On the other side of the coin there is a need for mystical and spiritual experiences to offset people's secular lives."

The effects, and drawbacks such as paranoia, vary but when a trip is particularly intense, users report a loss of ego or a renewed sense of their place in the universe."

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,tribalshamanpunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:29 AM

"With effects like this it's unsurprising that magic mushrooms are linked to ancient religious ceremonies"...... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:39 AM

All very amusing I'm sure :0(, but my point was to refute the contention that "Science" can explain everything about the human psyche

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:17 AM

"All very amusing I'm sure :0(, but my point was to refute the contention that "Science" can explain everything about the human psyche"

"Science" may not be able to, but science can, potentially. The quest of science is to explain natural phenomena and it is unscientific to refute the possibility of any aspect of that.

You seem to be posting like mad this morning but are remaining silent on my request for evidence of your verified telepathic experience. Cat got your tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:40 AM

Steve, 've already described the experiences on this forum, and have no wish to duplicate them, suffice to say that they definitely did happen, no one could convince me that there was any chance of them being coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:52 AM

odd that. I just tried to convince you by telepathy, and you didn't pick up on it ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 10:05 AM

Suffice to say that they almost certainly didn't and that you were deluded. OK, don't bother reproducing them. I won't bother searching the forum for them either. Just like I don't know whether there's a God, I don't know whether there's telepathy. As with God, I want evidence. Not one single case of alleged telepathy has ever been scientifically verified. Again, please note the careful use of "scientifically" there.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:34 AM

Just think. If telepathy was anything other than irrational nonsense, those claiming it could look into the minds of others and see how they are really perceived.

Proof if ever you need it that ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:20 AM

If you asked me whether I believed in God, I'd tell you that you were asking the wrong question.
But you appear to believe in the spirit of goodness, does it matter whether you are a humanist or a quaker?
what matters is that the spirit of evil as personified by edward heath is defeated, there are a number of unexplained disappearances of young boys from his yacht.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:10 PM

BLISHED: 23:07 GMT, 5 August 2015 | UPDATED: 16:31 GMT, 6 August 2015
   
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Former prime minister: Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against Sir Edward Heath (pictured)
+8
Former prime minister: Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against Sir Edward Heath (pictured)
Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against former prime minister Sir Edward Heath, taking the total to seven.
Gloucestershire Police has spoken to an alleged victim as it emerged a national police probe into child abuse allegations against the former premier is to be launched within days.
Meanwhile Thames Valley Police also said today said it is investigating information the force has received regarding Sir Edward.
The announcements come after a police appeal over alleged activities of the former prime minister prompted 'a number of calls' to detectives.
A Gloucestershire Police spokesman said the force had referred the matter to Operation Hydrant, which coordinates multiple historical child sexual abuse investigations across the country.
Forces in Wiltshire, London, Kent, Jersey and Hampshire are already looking into abuse allegations linked to Sir Edward – and others, such as the Police Service of Northern Ireland, are expected to examine claims against the Tory politician, who died aged 89 in 2005.
North Yorkshire Police detectives today started examining Sir Edward Heath's relationship with Jimmy Savile and his paedophile friend Peter Jaconelli, who was known as 'King Cornet'.
Senior officers now want a dedicated force to coordinate a national inquiry. Never before has an ex-PM been the subject of such an investigation.
Wiltshire Police, which on Monday appealed for potential victims to come forward, said it continued to receive a 'number of calls' yesterday.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3186503/New-probe-Ted-Heath-sex-claims-nationwide-Investigation-launch-days-detectives-continue-receive-number-calls-allegations-against-former-Prime-Minister.html#ixzz43emDZPM9
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