Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Brussels: Why?

GUEST,S Byers 24 Mar 16 - 07:49 PM
Padre 24 Mar 16 - 09:13 PM
Rapparee 24 Mar 16 - 09:17 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 24 Mar 16 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,# 24 Mar 16 - 11:58 PM
Joe Offer 25 Mar 16 - 12:52 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,Eliza 25 Mar 16 - 03:35 AM
Doug Chadwick 25 Mar 16 - 04:43 AM
Musket 25 Mar 16 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 04:55 AM
Stu 25 Mar 16 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 16 - 05:15 AM
DMcG 25 Mar 16 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 05:44 AM
Les in Chorlton 25 Mar 16 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 05:49 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 05:58 AM
akenaton 25 Mar 16 - 06:07 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 06:22 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 06:30 AM
Les in Chorlton 25 Mar 16 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,Eliza 25 Mar 16 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Derrick 25 Mar 16 - 07:59 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 08:37 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 08:58 AM
GUEST, ^*^ 25 Mar 16 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Eliza 25 Mar 16 - 09:23 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 16 - 09:30 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Eliza 25 Mar 16 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 25 Mar 16 - 10:01 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 10:04 AM
akenaton 25 Mar 16 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 10:39 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 10:51 AM
frogprince 25 Mar 16 - 11:53 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 12:13 PM
Joe Offer 25 Mar 16 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 12:57 PM
olddude 25 Mar 16 - 01:32 PM
akenaton 25 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM
olddude 25 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 03:26 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 04:16 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 04:34 PM
olddude 25 Mar 16 - 04:37 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,HiLi 25 Mar 16 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 06:41 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 16 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Mar 16 - 06:56 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 16 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 25 Mar 16 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 16 - 08:13 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 08:14 PM
akenaton 25 Mar 16 - 08:25 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 16 - 08:39 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Why?
From: GUEST,S Byers
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 07:49 PM

I've been warned that to ask "Why" is racist. But I would really like to know. Je Suis Brussels.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Why?
From: Padre
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 09:13 PM

Anyone who would tell you that "asking 'Why' is racist" needs to be on some very strong psychotropic drugs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Why?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 09:17 PM

"Why is the sun hot?" is racist?????

As Eric Bogle wrote, "And anyway, a man can lose his reason asking "Why?"".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Why?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 11:21 PM

Asking "Why" isn't racist. Believing that race is the answer to "Why?" is racist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Why?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 11:58 PM

The opening post means little without context. No offence meant to the OP.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:52 AM

I changed the subject of the thread to "Brussels: Why?" - I think that's the question the OP wants to ask.

I was listening to an analysis on the radio the other night. The speaker said that Brussels has a large Muslim community that has been neglected for decades. The people get very little in the way of government services, and they feel forgotten and despised.

This creates an environment where extremist groups can form and operate with very little notice, and they have a large supply of unhappy young people to recruit.

There are large Islamic communities in many cities in Europe. While they have been there for decades, they have not been integrated into society. And that's a powderkeg.

I suppose both the Muslims and the Europeans are at fault. It won't be an easy problem to solve. I usually feel safe going anywhere in Europe, but I admit that there were times I felt uneasy when walking alone in Muslim areas of Paris and London and Berlin - and my experience in Berlin was when I lived there in the 1970s. Back then, everybody with dark skin was thought to be a "Turk," and they were treated as lower-class citizens.

To ask why the Brussels attacks happened, is certainly not racist. To assume that the nature of Islam is the reason for the attacks, that could be racist. Many Muslims are peaceable, generous people. To assume they're all terrorists or that their religion is a foundation of terrorism, is racist. It can be used as a foundation of terrorism, but many good things can be twisted to bad uses. The problem is far more complex and far older than we might think. And the blame is widely spread - it's not just one side who's at fault.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:20 AM

Is this what your meaning S Byers?


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-35888748 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:35 AM

'They have not been integrated into society'.

Could that be because they don't wish particularly to integrate? In UK they tend to keep themselves to themselves, and many Muslim parents won't allow their teenage children to mix with non-Muslim schoolfellows as friends. Living in the same area in large numbers does isolate them from the other folk in the region, and encourages a ghetto mentality.

It's quite hard to reach out to communities which reject us non-Muslims and one feels they almost despise us and our values (or lack of them!)
In case anyone thinks I'm a rampant UKIP racist, my husband is an African Muslim (now a British citizen) and has found nothing but kindness and many friendships here. But he ardently wants to integrate, and has never held himself apart.
I do agree that the terrorist recruiters will seek out disenchanted young people to become bombers, but I have no idea how this can be addressed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:43 AM

Why?

For publicity.

DC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:44 AM

I suppose the extra wide decorator's brush labelled "they" isn't always helpful.

I doubt for one minute that we are unique in that our circle of friends includes many from work. Accordingly, we have many friends who are Muslim. We go to their weddings, parties and nights out together, they come to ours.

Integration is a two way street. I do however get saddened when a good mate said he loves our house, our village etc but could never live here because in his experience, rural English aren't known for integrating.

It's all a matter of perspective. If I lived somewhere where it goes quiet when you walk into a restaurant based on your appearance, I doubt I'd be eager to back again tomorrow.

There is no problem for society based on Muslim any more than any other superstition. There is however an issue with those using faith as a front for more temporal aims and disenfranchised young people seeing sense and purpose in changing the status quo.

I have to admit, I thought the op posed the sort of question sub editors of The Daily M*il start their diatribe with.   Rhetorical question at best. Something else at worst.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:55 AM

Why do we constantly make excuses for these horrible attacks...... disaffected youth, not integrated , racism, it's the fault of the victims ! Let us call it what it is , It is religious fanatics .
I have heard no one suggest that all Muslims are terrorists nor have I heard anyone suggest that Islam Is to blame. But what is blindingly obvious is that these attacks are carried out by young Muslim males. they are recruited by religious nutters, they become religious nutters, they kill innocent people.
I agree with much that Eliza says and like her I have no idea what can be done about it . Perhaps we need to stop giving legitimacy to these terrorists by making excuses for them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Stu
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:56 AM

"While they have been there for decades, they have not been integrated into society."

Rubbish. They retain a very strong sense of their own identity and culture, but to suggest British Muslims are somehow apart from the rest of society is simply ill-informed, tabloideque claptrap. There are muslims in all walks of life in the UK and Europe including in parliament and senior positions throughout our society. Most people don't even ask whether someone is Muslim or not and it does't matter. Walk down Southall high street and you're not in some

The poor and disaffected of any society are often marginalised, all the more so in a country where the youth feel the have been let down by a generation that saddles them with debt, offers them low-paid dead end jobs for the less well educated and have virtually no chance of buying a place of their own. How this is expressed may be down to influences form within their culture, but more than likely it's not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:15 AM

Brussels has a large Muslim community that has been neglected for decades. The people get very little in the way of government services, and they feel forgotten and despised.


Yes. You could say exactly the same about Coptic Christians in Egypt, or many other minorities in many other places.

Why was Belgium attacked?
They have bombed no-one. They have invaded no-one.

They were attacked by IS.
IS attacks people just because they are not Sunni Muslims.
The vast majority of their victims are Shia Muslims.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:19 AM

The problem is far more complex and far older than we might think. And the blame is widely spread - it's not just one side who's at fault.

... I do agree that the terrorist recruiters will seek out disenchanted young people to become bombers, but I have no idea how this can be addressed ...

... disenfranchised young people seeing sense and purpose in changing the status quo.


Some good comments there from various people. How it is addressed in the short term is not easy, and I suspect that doing what we currently do, but better - so Belgium learns more from how other countries address this, and so on - may be the only answer.

Longer term, there have been lots of studies describing how recruiting for Daesh is extremely similar to recruiting for a large number of cults over the last few decades. In particular such cults are prepared to put hundreds of hours into persuading a single individual to join, always with essentially two messages : "We value you" and "Your society does not". So I'm with Joe: it is a much wider issue than is often presented and the things we need to be looking at include all those things that make individuals feel valueless. For example there was a report recently that in the UK one sixth of employed people are in jobs below their qualifications? If that's you, do you feel valued or devalued? Or if you are long term long term unemployed, which makes you feel more valued: perhaps 5 mins at the Job Centre a week, or someone spending hours talking to you and saying how valued you are to their group? Or the incessant pressure on body image - how many people feel worthless about that? Or, yet again, do people feel represented or unrepresented by politics? A local example: on a recent 'change of use' to change a house into a dentist's surgery the council sought peoples views. Of 19 submissions, 17 were opposed. So it was approved.

These, and many other things, all feel into the mix. And most of them we could actually start working on if the will was there. At a local level, there are plenty of people who do, but to really tackle them needs large scale co-ordinated effort, and I see no sign of that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:44 AM

....somewhere where it goes quiet when you walk in...

A Black Man walks into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder and the bartender sez...where did you get that? The parrot sez, Africa, it's full of them.

Told by a Black Man entering a local rural (possibly hostile) bar totally disarming the situation by humor.

Brave Man


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:45 AM

It seems the purpose of the attacks is to turn the mixed christian population of Belgium against the Muslim population of Belgium in order to turn the wider western population of Europe against the wider Muslim population of wherever leading to a Muslim domination via a new Caliphate.

It's roots lie in a thousand years plus of religious and political conflict between Europe and the rest of the world certainly not helped by the Crusades and European response to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Why are ISIS using young European men to do what they want? Because they can. Why can they? Back to the start of my post .................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:49 AM

The crusades.! What more can be said !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:58 AM

True story.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:07 AM

I also agree with Eliza......but the lack of integration is down the policy of "multiculturalism", which does not mean everyone living together....and does mean different cultures living side by side but separately.
Modern Western society is so far removed from what is acceptable to even the most liberal of Muslims, that integration is all but impossible.
This clash of social cultures is what makes the job of the terrorists so easy.

They can win and almost certainly will win unless we waken to the roots of the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:22 AM

Isis is what it is - religion gone viral; nor religion is in the position to claim that it doesn't have its dangerous extremists.
Isis has benefited from the cynical and predatory nature of the wealthy west in supporting despotic regimes politically and practically - they stepped into a gap we left in providing some sort of opposition to oppression.
When they have been defeated, as hopefully, they will, the problems of those states will remain to be sorted out if they are not going to flare up again.
And yes - of course a history of prejudice, from the Crusades to 'Paki-bashing' and the modern-day trend of blaming entire communities for the sins of a few, has played a part in the disaffection of Muslim people living in Britain - why wouldn't it?
"Brave Man"
Of all immmigrant communities, Muslims have proved themselves the most prepared to integrate into British society - it is reluctance by intolerant members of the host community who are proving the problem.
Facts on Muslim integration
"Brave Man"
Or an Uncle Tom - whoever told it, it's a racist joke - there's nothing admirable or brave about racism.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:30 AM

Uncle Tom? Is that like a Bog Trotter?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:34 AM

Multiculturalism in the UK and elsewhere is a fact. It may not always work very well but neither does democracy - just the best their is.

Where is monoculturalism?

Integration? As a white, male, straight, married father of one educated, atheist, ex-working class, retired schoolteacher, Labour Party activist and banjo player, the last thing I want is to be integrated into is a community of white, male, straight, married father of one educated, atheist, ex-working class, schoolteachers and Labour Party activist and banjo players.

This has been a very valuable discussion, please don't lower the tone by getting petty and personal.

Best wishes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:55 AM

My husband's brother is living in Paris, under very different conditions to my husband here in rural Norfolk. He lives in the banlieux, where everyone is a Muslim, nearly all are fundamentalist, and many living illegally in France (he overstayed his Visa ages ago). He is far from 'integrated' and during the Paris attacks it emerged he actually lives with his African mates in St Denis, near the Stade de France. Such a man is very vulnerable to being 'recruited' by ISIS. He has nothing to lose. But none of this is any excuse whatever to decide to murder innocent people in vicious and evil bomb attacks. There can be no justification for that ever.
Our village has always been delightfully welcoming to my husband. He has often walked into our local pub (soft drinks only!) and been hailed by one and all.
I feel that the only way forward is to vastly increase surveillance and 'Intelligence' by the relevant Departments, and to keep tabs on all possible suspects. There must be known leaders and recruiters who should be watched and tracked. Brussels seems to have fallen down a bit on that side of things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:59 AM

"Modern Western society is so far removed from what is acceptable to even the most liberal of Muslims, that integration is all but impossible."

The most liberal of Muslims are happy to tolerate and accept the culture of western society and adapt to the differences even if they do not follow them.
The terrorists want every one to toe the line of their version of Islam,fellow Muslims as well.Isis or what ever else you wish to call them are at war with the rest of the world.They have killed far more Muslims than any other religion or race


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:21 AM

The answer to the why lies in the stated purpose and goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded by Hassan al-Banna in 1928 and championed today by groups such as ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hizbolla and many more.

From Wikipedia:

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state."[13] Its mottos include "Believers are but Brothers", "Islam is the Solution", and "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish."[14][15][16] It is financed by members, who are required to allocate a portion of their income to the movement,[17] and was for many years financed by Saudi Arabia, with whom it shared some enemies and some points of doctrine.[17][18]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:37 AM

"The answer to the why lies in the stated purpose and goals of the Muslim Brotherhood,"
The rest of that Wiki entry shows how the Muslim Brotherhood is regarded by many Muslims as an extremist organisation and has been rejected as such (see below)
It is an extremist organisation which has been forced to fight its corner in Muslim countries and making incidents like Brussels "Muslim" really doesn't help win the hears and minds necessary to defeat extremism.Eliza's recounting of her own experience makes the point perfectly - Muslims are perfectly willing to integrate perfectly into our communities when they are allowed to - it's more often than not the indigenous population which makes the process a one-way street.
Jim Carroll

"The Arab Spring brought it legalisation and substantial political power at first, but as of 2013 it has suffered severe reversals.[25] The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood was legalized in 2011 and won several elections,[26] including the 2012 presidential election when its candidate Mohamed Morsi became Egypt's first elected president after the 2011 Revolution
One year later, however, following massive demonstrations, anger at perceived discrimination and disenfranchisement against religious minorities, Morsi was overthrown by the military and arrested. As of 2014, the organization has been declared a terrorist group both in Egypt and by its erstwhile ally Saudi Arabia, and is once again suffering a severe crackdown in Egypt[9][27] as well as pressure in other Arab countries.[28] The Brotherhood itself claims it is a peaceful, democratic organization,[29][30] and its leader "condemns violence and violent acts".[31]
The Muslim Brotherhood is being accused, in some propaganda, as a tool of Turkey on restoring the Ottoman Empire"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:58 AM

the Muslim Brotherhood is regarded by many Muslims as an extremist organisation

And regarded by too many as the righteous agent of Islam.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST, ^*^
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:01 AM

The VAST percentage of Muslims want what all people want - a good life. In any culture a minute fraction are Muslim extremist or Christian extremist - and the key word is "extremist," not the name of the religion itself. While modern Western right wing Christians legislate away the rights of women and minorities, forcing women to have children instead of getting the abortion they desire, while they rant "keep out Sharia law" they add dogma to school textbooks and legislate for prayer in public meetings, in classrooms, and the hard liners blow up abortion clinics and women's health centers. North Carolina state legislator Christians this week voted to recind rights given to LGBT individuals granted by a liberal city, and prevent anyone else from (supposedly) ever trying to do it again.

I silently weep for those who can't see the richness of my life in a truly multicultural community. We may live separately in different houses, but our neighborhoods are commingled.

This thread won't last long, all of the players are in position with their fingers on the "submit message" button for messages of "enlightened segregation" or despising those who don't know any better (or more precisely, those who are unwilling to learn).

Gay/Muslim/Multiculturalism bashing full speed ahead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:11 AM

"And regarded by too many as the righteous agent of Islam."
One is too many where extremism is concerned, but as I said, only winning hearts and minds will change that
Failing to do so could unleash far worse than is happening at present.
It really is a matter of taking our share of the blame for what is happening and doing something about it - as our Guest so eloquently put it "Gay/Muslim/Multiculturalism bashing full speed ahead".
Have been watching the account of how well our Colonial representatives integrated in the (admittedly fictionalised) 'Indian Summers', pretty accurate, from all accounts.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:13 AM

Guest above, you clearly have not read the entire thread. Before you go on about Gay, Muslim, Multicultural bashing I suggest you read ALL comments. No one is bashing anything, people are simply trying to understand the horrors of terrorism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:23 AM

Well said HiLo. I think we're all trying to understand the mindset of the terrorists. I expect the Inca had the same sense of horror when the Conquistadors arrived. All religions have their ruthless fundamentalist factions.
I reckon it boils down to a certain type of person who is willing to inflict pain, torture and death (psychopaths?) for some religious or political ideal. Many of us hold strong beliefs, but would never consider for a moment hurting innocent folk like this. It must take some power of self-motivation to put together a bomb and set it off among passers-by. Are they mentally ill in some way?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:30 AM

" I usually feel safe going anywhere in Europe, but I admit that there were times I felt uneasy when walking alone in Muslim areas of Paris and London and Berlin"

Well I worked in the 1980s in Walthamstow. Mrs Steve worked for years in Stepney, east London, and for several years we lived in Robin Hood Gardens in Poplar. You can hardly get areas more "Muslim" than those. My parents live just outside a poor area of Bury. All these areas have high populations of the people we are calling Muslims in this thread. Neither my parents, my wife not I have never been harassed by Muslims. Without wanting to tar everyone with the same brush, I find them to be kind, friendly, amusing, hard-working and peaceable people. On the other hand, I've been threatened, sworn at, spat at, had soil thrown on me from a block of flats and jostled, all by, er, what we might characterise as the local white natives. Nothing too serious, fortunately. Of course, the vast majority of those are also friendly, kind, amusing, etc., people. Just saying. Next time you walk through a "Muslim" area, make eye contact, hold your head up and smile. You'll be amazed. Not once in my life have I ever felt unsafe in such places.

"Could that be because they don't wish particularly to integrate? In UK they tend to keep themselves to themselves, and many Muslim parents won't allow their teenage children to mix with non-Muslim schoolfellows as friends. Living in the same area in large numbers does isolate them from the other folk in the region, and encourages a ghetto mentality."

Well I think the mentality problem is solidly in our court. Let's talk chickens and eggs...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:31 AM

I reckon it boils down to a certain type of person who is willing to inflict pain, torture and death (psychopaths?) for some religious or political ideal

Precisely so. Just as Geo. W. Bush did in Iraq. And as Don. Trump is doing now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:50 AM

And in Rwanda the Hutu committed the most vile atrocities among the Tutsi. How CAN human beings bring themselves to do such things? It fits all the definitions of psychopathy; a complete disregard of suffering and death, as if they've become robotic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:01 AM

Why am I reminded of some of the so call Christians on this site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:03 AM

Feeling G.O.P. Peril, Muslims Try to Get Out Vote
By ALAN RAPPEPORTMARCH 24, 2016

WASHINGTON — American Muslims are watching in growing horror as Donald J. Trump and Senator Ted Cruz battle for the Republican presidential nomination, outdoing each other with provocative proposals that have included Muslim registries, immigration bans and fleets of police patrolling their neighborhoods.

"The fear and apprehension in the American Muslim community has never been at this level," said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). "The anti-Islamic tidal wave is spurring civic participation."

Article Here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:04 AM

I don't know, why are you ? Or is that just a pseudo rhetorical question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:31 AM

"Multiculturalism" was a social mistake...a lack of planning for the future.
Complete integration should have been insisted upon right from the start....as ever it was a political "fix" short term and a failure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:39 AM

"And in Rwanda the Hutu committed the most vile atrocities among the Tutsi."
I spent some time hitching across Europe, particularly Germany in the mid-60s and remember asking myself how the people I met there could possibly have sanctioned what had taken place only a decade or so before - some of them most certainly had.
I came to the conclusion it was a combination of circumstances and demagogues with the abilty to take advantage of those circumstances.
Five years later I was in (then) Yugoslavia - following the recent trial of Radovan Karadzic,;, how could those kindly people we met and befriended have allowed those atrocities to take place in the name of Christianity.
Circumstances and demagogues again presumably
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:40 AM

Complete integration should have been insisted upon right from the start

Yup. Worked a treat treat with Native Americans.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:45 AM

"Multiculturalism" was a social mistake...a lack of planning for the future"
Multiculturalism has always been a fact of life for the West - the United States is made up entirely of many cultures and has survived quite well out of it.
It is those who won't accept other cultures into their midst who are the greatest threat to our peace and safety, not the incomers.
"I felt uneasy when walking alone in Muslim areas of Paris and London and Berlin"
I have always found itt far easier to discuss my non-belief with Muslims than I have with Christians - apart from the fanatics that inhabit every religion, they are far more tolerant as a people.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:51 AM

The native Americans didn't immigrate elsewhere it was the Europeans who came and didn't integrate with the native culture, instead they imposed their values on them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 11:53 AM

""Multiculturalism" was a social mistake...a lack of planning for the future.
Complete integration should have been insisted upon right from the start"

So what, in fact, is a person who would say that asking for? What constitutes "complete integration" (yes, I put that in quotes) Does it mean never speaking other than the language of the local majority in public? Does it mean dressing like the local majority? Does it mean converting to the religion of the local majority? If I'm misunderstanding the intent, what is the intent?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:13 PM

Because it was easier and more convient to do "the deed" there, versus elsewhere?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:13 PM

Stu quotes Joe: "While they have been there for decades, they have not been integrated into society."

Stu responds: Rubbish. They retain a very strong sense of their own identity and culture, but to suggest British Muslims are somehow apart from the rest of society is simply ill-informed, tabloideque claptrap. There are muslims in all walks of life in the UK and Europe including in parliament and senior positions throughout our society. Most people don't even ask whether someone is Muslim or not and it does't matter. Walk down Southall high street and you're not in some

I didn't intend to say that about London, but I didn't make that completely clear. The radio commentator said it about Brussels (which I haven't visited) and about Paris (which I have, quite extensively); and it rings true about my experience living in Berlin in the 1970s.

There does seem to be a lot more integration of Muslims into society in the larger cities of the UK - although the interaction still seems far from ideal. I was pleasantly surprised when I first arrived at Heathrow many years ago, to be greeted by a number of immigration officials in Islamic dress.


Keith quotes Joe: "Brussels has a large Muslim community that has been neglected for decades. The people get very little in the way of government services, and they feel forgotten and despised."

Keith responds: Yes. You could say exactly the same about Coptic Christians in Egypt, or many other minorities in many other places.

Believe me, Keith, the Coptic Christians in Egypt are not forgotten when it comes to police "protection." They have very little chance of forming any sort of military action groups. And on top of that, I don't think there's anything in their culture that would foster extreme militarism. That aspect certainly exists in American Christianity, but not Coptic Christianity.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:57 PM

Some times posts disappear because they deserve to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 01:32 PM

Bob baer did a good job explaing it. In the trenches he was the best we ever had. Check cnn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM

Multiculturalism produces the "ghetto" effect.
The Ghetto produces dissatisfaction and violence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM

Can't discuss anything anymore without a crap storm from someone. I will discuss it with my Cnn reporter friends and not here .. Geezh.. By the way wish someone would tell the police there to get the damn ceramic plates in those vests. Soft vests don't do crap with an ak..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:24 PM

"While they have been there for decades, they have not been integrated into society"
Britain colonised the world for centuries and made no attempt to "integrate" into the communities they ruled - as was the case with most Empires - they even had a term to describe the 'misfits' who attempted to become one with the people they ruled - it was known as "going native".
I suggest you visit some of the countries that have ex-pat communities.
Some years ago we spent time in one of the 'White Villages' above the Costa Del Sol - half a dozen groups of English settlers who told us they "stuck to their own kind and never mixed with the natives".
Parts of Northern Greece have become a problem, with property companies selling off whole villages to Northern European buyers.
In Shetland, a walled complex housing only Germans has been built, complete with electronic gates to keep out native intruders.
Here on the West Coast of Ireland, a little before we moved over, there was a local dispute when a German (again) company attempted to buy one of our most beautiful beaches (White Strand) with a view to walling it off and building a German housing estate - the proposal was that all necessary supplies would be flown into Shannon.
It is natural that immigrants should want to stick with people with similar customs and a shared language; in the case of Muslims, they tend to do so for security reasons - we are not a particularly welcoming country as far as immigrants go.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:54 PM

It would be grand if we could discuss "why Brussels" without people getting on their personal hobby horses and hijacking threads.
Terrorism is a global problem and some of us are truly interested in discussing why that happens. Most are not engaging in bigotry or prejudice , we are simply seeking understanding.
   There are some who cannot seem to get past what they perceive to be the short comings of the rest of us. But we are all intelligent adults, we don't need to be talked down to, preached at or otherwise patronised by the self righteous musing of the few. So let us just get on with our discussion and ignore the one trick ponies. Just my take on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:26 PM

"without people getting on their personal hobby horses and hijacking threads".
How is that not being discussed here?
How immigrants are treated has everything to do with the disillusionment that drives them to support groups like Isis - whichis what this discussion is about - not a "hobby-horse".
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:16 PM

Give it a rest you fucking arsehole, the community is sick of your shit. Oh, and get over yourself if you can climb that high.

And this wasn't disappeared because....?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:25 PM

Terrorism is a global problem and some of us are truly interested in discussing why that happens.

Why??? Oh yes?

* Guantanamo.

* The bogus invasion of Iraq.

* Drone strikes wiping out countless civilians.

* The mess the U.S. made out of Afghanistan

* The carnage in the Occupied Territories.

* Rampant Islamaphobia.

* Zionism backed up by unquestioning U. S. support.

* Trump and the other Republicraps' constant Muslim-bashing.

* Persons that excuse all of the above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:34 PM

jim, this is not a discussion about the British empire, it is a discussion about why terrorism happens inthe 21st century. this is not exclusively about how dis illusionism leads to terrorism., it is about why Brussels, that is not the fault of British imperialism.
If we are ever to understand this, we need to step into the present and ask some serious questions. Ido not believe that modern terrorism is always to be blamed on ancient grievances.
   This hasn't,t disappeared because .....well, you figure it out , not too hard,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:37 PM

This

Stuff like this doesn't help


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:55 PM

"jim, this is not a discussion about the British empire, "
No it isn't but it is about how Immigrants are treated and why.
Ake says the problem is Muslims don't interegrate - I responded - take it up with him.
Wth respect, this is not your thread - or anybody's so we all respond how we se fit.
Plesase don't interfere with other people's contributions, it's difficult enough keeping these threads open as it is.
By the way - you are not a member of this forum, please have the courtesy to remember that fact and not interfere with those of us who are.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLi
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:17 PM

Under the rules of this forum Jim, I have as much right to post here as you do! this thread is not personal property, though you may regardi it as such. I have been posting mere for many years and as am entitled as you are to express an opinion.   " not interfere, Does that mean not disagreeing with you. how pompous of you to assume twho has a legitimate right to Post here!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:41 PM

In any case, back to why Brussels? I think most of us give this a lot of thought. Why it happens is open to a lot of specualation but we are still trying to understand it. there are , I suppose, no simple answers. How do we comprehend this kind of behaviour, how do we confront it and how do we make whatever solutions there may be inclusive of all of those involved. I do wish we could all come together to solve this. It has been suggested that discussing grievences may help, but the terrorists are so diverse that I am not sure what the actual grievences are. anyway, that is my quandary.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:51 PM

there are , I suppose, no simple answers.

Perhaps not, HioHo, but there are some patently obvious "answers" which you choose to ignore.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:56 PM

And they are ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:02 PM

In a nutshell they are motivated by a theological and cultural hatred of the Judeo-Christian world and all that it represents and wish to impose their brand of Islam, as defined by Hassan al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb, on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:17 PM

Jim, when I say Muslims don't integrate, I'm not assuming that they are entirely in the wrong, there are myriad things very wrong with modern western society....perhaps that is why multiculturalism was thought up.....to keep different sectors apart and defuse any frictions, in the short term.

Unfortunately the numbers of Muslims arriving here has increased dramatically and the strain on our infrastructure has added to the problem.
There is no easy answer, repatriation appears out of the question, but are we prepared to countenance Sharia Law in a "liberal democracy"?.....Will our new found love for human rights allow us to accept Muslim values?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:13 PM

'Unfortunately the numbers of Muslims arriving here has increased dramatically and the strain on our infrastructure has added to the problem."

The word "unfortunately" and the term "added to the problem" marks you out as a racist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:14 PM

"Under the rules of this forum Jim, I have as much right to post here as you do! this thread "
Of course you do, so has everybody else - you are not entitled to tell other posters whet they can and cannot post.
" Muslims don't integrate,"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:25 PM

"The word "unfortunately" and the term "added to the problem" marks you out as a racist. "   :0) surely not! are you sure that you're a scientist?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brussels: Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:39 PM

Whoops - try again
"Under the rules of this forum Jim, I have as much right to post here as you do! this thread "
Of course you do, as does everybody else - you are not entitled to tell other posters whet they can and cannot post and what is and what is not relevant.
" Muslims don't integrate,"
Yes they do - far more than all the examples you have just been given and choose to ignore.
Muslims are reckoned - by government statements, to be the most ready of all immigrants to become British citizens, to take up useful employment and to make a success of it
Muslim children are among the most dedicated and successful groups in the education system - official.
Their tendency to live among their own people is no different than any other national or cultural group living abroad - including Brits.
In the case of Muslims, many do as an act of self protection against hostility - that is not ghettoisation, that is a natural tendency.
I have lived in three of the major cities in Britain; in each case I had Muslims as neighbours - I worked both with them as workers and for them I was employed by them - I never at any time found them unfriendly or secrative - on the contrary, they were among the most interested and interesting people I have ever met.
If you have any evidence or personal information that my observation ,or that the findings of official surveys are incorrect, please present it - just repeating something that is simply not true doesn't make it any less so - where is your evidence?.
One more try
MUSLIM INTEGRATION
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 14 December 12:43 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.