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Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country

GUEST,Empirical 28 Mar 16 - 02:32 AM
Stower 28 Mar 16 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Mar 16 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Mar 16 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,leeneia 29 Mar 16 - 11:02 AM
Weasel 30 Mar 16 - 05:01 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 16 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Apr 16 - 11:30 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM
Weasel 08 Apr 16 - 05:44 AM
Weasel 08 Apr 16 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,leeneia 08 Apr 16 - 12:05 PM
Weasel 08 Apr 16 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Apr 16 - 11:28 AM
Jack Campin 09 Apr 16 - 01:45 PM
Weasel 10 Apr 16 - 06:11 AM
Weasel 10 Apr 16 - 06:19 AM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM
Weasel 10 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 16 - 10:00 AM
Weasel 10 Apr 16 - 04:22 PM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 16 - 08:20 PM
Weasel 12 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM
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Subject: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,Empirical
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 02:32 AM

The three dances (songs) are as follows. Does anyone know their origin and roughly what the antique English is about?

Now foot it as I do, Tom boy Tom
...

The cramp is in my purse full sore
...

Robin Hood, said Little John
Come dance before the Queen a
...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Stower
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:39 AM

The origin of songs in Ravenscroft's publications is often difficult to ascertain. This was well before the days of copyright and TR, like all those around him, freely borrowed, often without acknowledging his sources. TR's books include his arrangements of old material such as broadsides and very likely his own compositions without distinction. What I take to be his own compositions - since they have a kind of unity of style - are usually lyrically nonsense, so I wouldn't expect to gain any meaning from his words.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 11:01 AM

Hello, Empirical. The CPDL (Choral Public Domain Library) has these words:

Now foot is as I do Tom Boy Tom,
Now foot is as I do Swithen a
And Hick so must trick it all alone
Till Robin come leaping in between a
(now dance with your feet as I do, Tom boy THom
now dance with your feet as I do, along with all of us
and Hick must dance it all alone until Robin comes leaping in between us.)

note: I remember from student days that 'swithin' means between, but I can't verify that online. If it doesn't mean that, then it means rapidly, and the a that follows doesn't mean anything.

The cramp is in my purse full sore
No money will bide therein a
And if I had some salve therefore
O lightly then would I sing a
Hey hoe, the cramp a

(My wallet has diarrhea really badly. No money will stay in it. And if I had some medicine for it, then I would sing lightly, "Hey ho diarrhea!")

[There's elegance for you! - Leeneia]

Robin Hood, said Little John,
Come dance before the Queen a
In a red petticoat and a green jacket,
A white hose and a green-a
(Should be self-explanatory. Hose are stockings.)

Sing after fellows as you hear me,
A toy that seldom is seen a,
Three country dances in on to be,
A pretty conceit as I ween a.
(Fellows, sing what you hear me sing, a pretty thing seldom seen: three country dances in one. It's a pretty thought, I think. )

Note: "in on to be" is "in one to be."

Does that cover it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 11:10 AM

Re: "Foot it as I do...." Here's a nifty video I found which shows how important the feet were in early dancing. The intro is a little wordy, but it does contain useful information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IccBbE022IY


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 11:02 AM

Empirical?

Does anybody know where to find the music for these rounds? I've searched for a while.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:01 AM

Leeneia -

I have the music - send me an email address

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM

In TR's time RH and LJ would have been characters at the May revels as would the May Queen.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 09:29 AM

Thank you, Weasel. I've signed in, and you can PM the music. I appreciate it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:30 AM

Weasel kindly sent me the music, and I've made a MIDI to hear what it's like. I'll send it in for posting.

If Google Chrome doesn't play it, try Internet Explorer.

Click to play (joeweb)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM

MIDI posted and link added to leeneia's post. Thanks, leeneia. 'Tis a nice melody, it is.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:44 AM

Hi,

In the midi sound file the D flat in the 3rd bar (and later) is changed to a D natural. Is this how it came through to you? Possibly you've changed it to match what you've heard but it isn't a version I've ever heard or seen.

Cheers,

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 06:02 AM

This is the Ravenscroft as I know it:

Ravenscroft Three Country Dances


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 12:05 PM

Yes, there's a D flat eighth-note in your music, Weasel, but I probably decided to dispense with it. I suspect it's a mistake, though perhaps a mistake of long standing. Besides, I play with two harpers, and calling for a lever change for a single eighth note is not reasonable.

The chord with a D-flat is an F-flat maj 7, not a typical sound for the Renaissance.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 04:12 PM

Sorry Leeneia,

I disagree entirely.

Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 11:28 AM

That's okay.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 01:45 PM

Where is the original score for what you're talking about?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:11 AM

It's mainly in F minor - F minor has a D flat. It alternates between F minor and F major, something found often in music of the period (for example "The Leaves be Green" see the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book.

Cheers,

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:19 AM

I'm not sure this is worth an argument - my concern was that I'd mis-typed it in the version I sent since what I sent is how I have seen it written and how it has been performed in every performance or recording I've ever heard (including The City Waites).

It isn't copyright and anyone is at liberty to change what they like.

Cheers,

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM

The CPDL version the only one I can find) has it in E minor.

Surely somebody has a link to the version you're arguing about?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

The actual key doesn't matter whether it be D minor or E minor or whatever - it can be transposed to any key but the intervals remain the same. I honestly can't remember where I saw it - it was years ago.

We used to play it on recorders or on one memorable occasion in a pub, on recorder and lute but that's a different story - we should not have been there!

Cheers,

Weasel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 10:00 AM

So leeneia was flattening the d's in the final cadences in this?

X:1
T:A round of three country dances in one
C:Thomas Ravenscroft
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:3/4=60
V:1
V:2
V:3 transpose -12
V:4 bass transpose -24 middle=d
K:Fmin %Transposed from EMIN
[V:1] F|A>Bc|c>=d=e|f2 c|c2 F|A>Bc| G2  B| A G2| F2:|
[V:2] F|c2 c|B2   B|c>BA|G2 F|c>dc| B2  d| c3  | F2:|
[V:3] z|F>GA|G> A B|A>GF|E2 A|A2 A| B2  B| c3  | c2:|
[V:4] f|f2 c|e> f g|f2 f|c2 f|f2 c| e2  B| f c2| f2:|
%
[V:1] F|A>AA|B2   B|c=d2|e2 d|c>Bd| c> Bc|=A B2|=A2F|
[V:2] z|z3  |z3    |z3  |B3  |F2 A| G3   | F2 z| c3 |
[V:3] z|c>dc|B> A G|A>GF|E>FG|A2 F|=E>=DE| F3  | F2z|
[V:4] f|f2 c|e> f e|A B2|e2 B|f>Bf| c2  c|=d B2| f2f|
%
[V:1]   A>AA|B2   B|c=d2|e2 d|c>Bd| c> Bc|=A B2|=A2|]
[V:2]   F2 A|G3    |F2 z|B3  |F2 A| G3   | F>Fd| c2|]
[V:3]   c>dc|B> A G|A>GF|E>FG|A2 F|=E>=DE| F3  | F2|]
[V:4]   f2 c|e> f e|A B2|e2 B|f>Bf| c2  c|=d B2| f2|]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 04:22 PM

Listen to the soundfile Leeneia posted - she was sharpening the Dbs. I haven't got the file to hand at the moment. Sorry, I don't understand all the stuff underneath.

Cheers,

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 08:20 PM

The "stuff underneath" is just an ABC version of the CPDL's music, transposed up a semitone.

To deal with the ABC I posted you go here:

http://mandolintab.net/abcconverter.php

paste the code (everything in monospace font) into the box and hit the "Submit" button. It will replace the ABC in the box with a score in staff notation: click on that and it will play it as a MIDI.

leeneia's goes much slower than the tempo I set, and isn't what Ravenscroft wrote, but it sounds acceptable to me.

I can't see whatever's at http://yateslawrence.wix.com/music-queries - that's a site hosted on wix.com, which fails with many browsers including mine. Blank window.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Ravenscroft A round of three country
From: Weasel
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM

Jack,

Thanks for the link to the converter. Yes, that looks like the version I have too.

Cheers,

Weasel


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