BS: Possible Viking site found, New England

Subject: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 12:45 AM

As a result of satellite scanning, a site has been located that may have been a Viking site about 300 miles South of previously found sites.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/view-from-space-hints-at-a-new-viking-site-in-north-america/ar-BBrcjtM?li=BBnb7Kz

And don't say it's impossible because open boats or lapstrake boats can't cross oceans. They have.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 01:37 AM

View from space hints at a new Viking site in North America

interesting reading, thanks for the link

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

It's in Newfoundland. Does that count as New England?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM

I've been to L'Anse aux Meadows. In summer. Don't forget your fly dope.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 07:44 AM

Looks interesting. I saw it in this morning's Daily Telegraph.

I'll wait until tomorrow before deciding whether it was a genuine news story . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 08:29 AM

Jack, it depends on when the reading is taken. When England owned all of eastern North America, it might have. I did sort of stretch the definition, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 10:32 AM

I was very excited when I first read about the Viking colony on Greenland - farms, villages, churches - for want of a better word European life. All collapsed under a series of bad winters - climate change?

It seems those Sagas where passed on through an oral tradition for 200+ years before being written down - about as reliable as the Old Testament as a road map of Palestine?

Will this lead to some undiscovered Viking settlements of some scale? Seems unlikely it ever happened doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 10:59 AM

Not really Les. Tim Severin managed to make the distant Peckford Island on the Newfoundland coast by hopping up the various landfalls in a boat basically made from ox hide. Fascinating read by the way in his book "The Brendan Voyage"

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 11:49 AM

Intrestin but not evidence that anybody much ever made it in Viking times is it? Thor Heyerdahl made it from South America to Easter Island. Thing is the Easter Islanders came from the east of Asia. I think he nearly made across the South Atlantic whilst founding Americans came the long way round from the Bearing straight didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 11:56 AM

If you fancy a few low brow laughs and thrills, the extended edition Blu-ray of "Pathfinder" [2007] is available online for less than 3 quid...


"A Viking boy is left behind after his clan battles a Native American tribe. Raised within the tribe, he ultimately becomes their savior in a fight against the Norsemen."

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 02:09 PM

From what I recall of the article in National Geographic a while back, they've loads of archaeological evidence from Greenland, and it was not just the climate which did them in, but the Reformation. Things got very nasty in Iceland at about the same time, with the Lutherans imposing death sentences for things which had not been punished before - similarly, Sami shamanic practices were attacked in Finnmark. It seems that in Greenland, the Norse decided that they could not borrow ideas from the Inuit which might have kept them alive, because they were associated with paganism. As if furry skin coats and trousers were the work of the devil.

The last records of travel to and from Greenland were contemporaneous, as I understood it when I read it. And the Norway end decided not to continue the trade journeys. Nice.

I don't know if any work has been done on the genetics of current Greenlanders to see if there were any survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 02:11 PM

New England is south of Atlantic Canada which has never been referred to as New England that I knows of eh wha'? Newfoundland has been Newfoundland for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:24 PM

It was probably an early Newfie settlement. I believe those folks spanned the seas in their ships.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 08:07 PM

I was under the impression that everything from Long Island North was considered New England for a short while. Then, of course, there was the unpleasantness between the colonies and Blighty.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Cool Beans
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:25 PM

Heck, at one time much of what is now the United States was considered Virginia, including Michigan (where I live), but we're not exactly dishing out spoonbread here.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Fossil
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:55 PM

Another coincidence, in that my reading matter this week has included a book I recently picked up in the marina where I keep my boat. The marina has a small book exchange where itinerant mariners can exchange items of interest - anyway, someone had left Tim Severin's "The Brendan Voyage" - mentioned by Raggytash - and I have been reading it with interest.

So according to Severin - who, having actually researched the subject in detail and finally built the boat and made the voyage - not only does it seem highly probable that communities of Irish monks visited the Eastern seaboard of the US, Newfoundland, Greenland and Iceland, sailing the Atlantic in curraghs made of hide, but that at least one of the things that drove them to make such voyages was fear of the Viking invaders who at the time were devastating the Scottish and Irish monasteries.

The Viking longships were famously fast and seaworthy craft, if devastatingly uncomfortable and they were certainly up to making the journey. The Irish curraghs were less seaworthy, and would have taken much longer. But in medieval times, monks had nothing but time on their hands. It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility, once monks and others had started making the return trip back to Ireland (as Brendan is known to have done) that the knowledge of lands far to the north and west of the island could have spread to the Vikings. I look forward to hearing more of this story.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 05:12 AM

Is their any evidence of any kind at all of people traveling by curragh from Ireland to North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

Hi Les

Have you read Tim Severin's book? It's such a long time since I read it that I can't remember the details. But the whole purpose was to find out whether it was possible or not. This was a result of 'accounts' of an original Brendan voyage. The book will almost certainly deal with what those 'accounts' are or were. A few years ago it would have been a simple matter of waddling off to the library to borrow the book. Now the first problem is find a library.
Stan

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 06:01 AM

I seem to recall that Tim Severin's voyage was brought about by him hearing of ancient manuscripts describing the voyage of St Brendan in the 7th century. (Don't quote me on the date, I'm not 100% sure)

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 06:26 AM

So, no actual evidence of said journey?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 07:44 AM

The original texts relating to the voyage are the "Navigatio Sancto Brendani Abbatis" circa 800AD. From these Tim Severin calculated a voyage was actually possible and set out to do a voyage in a boat reckoned to be available at the time.

Now it could be that the people who wrote the Navigatio had been eating magic mushrooms. We will never know unless or until artefacts are found on the North American continent.

I just happen to like the story so am more inclined to want it to be true.

But do read Tim Severins book it is fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 09:10 AM

Raggytash wrote: The original texts relating to the voyage are the "Navigatio Sancto Brendani Abbatis" circa 800AD.

Presumably this document is in Latin. Even if you could get to it and then read it, it wouldn't actually be evidence in itself. Why is this important? The Viking evidence is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM

.. and the even earlier Ice Age Europeans who may have made it across over the Atlantic via ice bridges...???

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 09:32 AM

punkfolkrocker wrote: .. and the even earlier Ice Age Europeans who may have made it across over the Atlantic via ice bridges...???

By 800 AD any such would have been absorbed into what is now called Native Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: BanjoRay
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 07:06 PM

The interesting thing about the Brendan Voyage is how closely things that were seen and experienced by the modern crew resembled things in the manuscript.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 04:37 AM

There's a program on BBC1 tonight at 8.30 about the Vikings in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 05:05 AM

Thanks Stanron, I'll look out for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 04:09 AM

So, did anybody see the BBC TV programme and if so what did they make of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 04:26 AM

I did seethe programme. I did not like the approach to presentation because it tried to make it a "will they or won"t they" tale of excitement rather than a more sober factual programme but that could just be me.

In the end (spoiler alert!) it all hung on whether a particular piece of stone actually proved viking presence or whether there could be some other explanation. In the circumstances that programme was never going to offer any possible alternatives.

My verdict then is possible, but still unproven.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:11 AM

I have to concur with DMcG, the programme was really a bit of a non-entity. Certainly no conclusive evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM

Me too. I was continually annoyed by the whole TV drama approach. Since, as it turned out they had some but very little evidence, they spent 98 minutes creating a back story that led to a small piece of material that they believed had been roasted in a Viking iron extracting process.

If true - and it seems to be- then it is an astonishing find. I guess the 'New England' tag is ti draw in Tv interest in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 06:13 AM

The most telling thing for me was the expert opinion that "if the site was in Iceland there would be no question of it being Viking".

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 09:48 AM

Contrary to the way the word has been used in this thread,
and contrary to the popular concept, the word "Viking" does
not refer to a particular people, as does "Norse" or "Dane".

"Viking" refers to an activity (maybe it could be called
a lifestyle).

A farmer, let's say, in the Scandinavian area decides that
he'd like an adventure, with the possibility of gaining riches
and slaves for sale, and maybe finding, conquering, and occupying
better agricultural land. What does he do? He "goes Viking"
--that is, he goes raiding places like Ireland or England or
what we today would consider northern France. While engaged in
that sort of activity, he's a Viking.

If he's satisfied with his loot from that year's raids, or
if he's been defeated, (or maybe he's homesick) possibly
he goes back home to what today is Denmark or Sweden, to
his farm and family, there maybe to plan and organize next
year's raids. But he's still a Dane or a Swede, whether
he's "out Viking" or at home, farming or whatever.

Just being a far-ranging seaman, or an explorer, doesn't
make him a Viking. It's the warlike raiding activity
that does that, while he's at it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 09:55 AM

Are we talking about the Dan Snow programme? The most enduring image has to be Dan and a very eccentric-looking professor with a large bow tie sat in Betty's Tea Shop in York (which, for those who don't know York, is a famous and extremely posh and beautifully appointed York institution), having full afternoon tea and passing around Viking turds.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:09 AM

Yes I saw it. The Texan lady professor who studies satellite images has featured in a number of programs about north Africa and Egypt. She has successfully identified a huge number of buried buildings, many in parts of Africa that are now desert.

I agree about the 'will they, won't they?' nature of the program but the roasted ore sample was unique and, correct me if I am wrong, dateable.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

"but the roasted ore sample was unique and, correct me if I am wrong, dateable. "

xlnt point Stanron. I thought so - and may have to go back and watch it again. One point made at the end seemed to be it could not be native Americans because the didn't do iron - which is well established and given it's age only the Vikings were in the frame.

I get the poit Dave O is making but Viking is a well established name for some of the people of Scandinavia who traveled large parts of Europe, the Med, Iceland and Greenland.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 11:46 AM

An Icelandic historian spoke of Viking settlers to Iceland taking women from England.
He said that they seemed to have taken all the pretty ones.

I felt sad for those women, probably just girls.
Everything they had ever known including their families destroyed in front of them, and then the terrifying hardship of the crossing to Iceland in open boats.
The hardest life imaginable in the new settlements.
Cruel times.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 12:36 PM

Keith, the Vikings didn't just go to the north Atlantic. The Normans of Normandy were settled Vikings. They got to the Mediterranean via big European rivers and the west coast of Europe. They traded with North Africa and Constantinople. A lot warmer down there. Still some of those girls would have been sold as slaves and some would have been taken on in a more permanent fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 01:47 PM

Yes, I did know that.
It was just something in the programme that struck a chord with me.
Those particular girls were carried off to Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:40 PM

Gosh ! The things that foreigners do.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Reinhard
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 03:51 PM

... like kidnapping millions of Africans to be slaves in the USA. The Vikings were very small fish in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:37 PM

Reinhard wrote: like kidnapping millions of Africans to be slaves in the USA. The Vikings were very small fish in comparison.

Maybe. They were at it for at least 200 years but as most of the slaves were white skinned how can we tell?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 06:08 PM

Dave O's point jibes well with what we were told in 1978 by an archeologist in Denmark who had worked on the Hydeby(sp) site. He told us that the root word for Viking is the same root as vacation.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:27 AM

It would not be acceptable to make light of the suffering of 19th Century slaves.

Les asked what we made of the programme.
I reported an item that touched me.
Sorry.

It was a long time ago, but the Viking raids on peaceful communities were evil.
Arriving in sudden, overwhelming force they slaughtered indiscriminately, carried off women and children into slavery, took food stores and anything of value leaving any survivors to miserable starvation.

Does compassion have a time limitation?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM

EBarnacle wrote: an archeologist in Denmark who had worked on the Hydeby(sp) site. He told us that the root word for Viking is the same root as vacation.

Look where the guy comes from. I have detected over the last few years an attempt to mellow out the Vikings reputation. But think about it. A group of people who over a 300 year period, raided and murdered religious establishments for money, enslaved populations for money and invaded and occupied considerable areas of Europe might also have the kind of sense of humour that would call these ventures 'holidays'.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:54 AM

Colonialism and empire always lead to, and are an, endemic part of violence and subjigation?

But that doesn't stop ud being curious as to how far and how long the Norse / Vikings got to and spent in "America"

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 05:02 AM

Keith A of Hertford wrote: Does compassion have a time limitation?

Point taken Keith. It just occured to me that not all of there misery would have been in cold climates.

Absolutely right Les. Their culture was horrific, their technical achievements were considerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 05:29 AM

When I was in Iceland I saw the replica boat that recreated the journey to North America. The Sagas apparently mention it. I don't think the archaeology for the new site is conclusive, but more excavation would be needed.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:05 AM

Clearly the only evidence for Norse / Vikings in "America" is at Vinland and L'Anse aux Meadows.

Here

It is referred to as a staging post. The obvious question is to where.
Perhaps by studying the geographical and environmental situation at L'Anse aux Meadows some predictions might be made as to where they might be looking for?

Some concern about the new finding - they were looking for evidence of Norse / Vikings. Did they find any? They found one piece of "Bog Iron" - evidence of smelting I think. One historian said - no evidence of anybody interested or capable of smelting before 18C except Norse / Vikings therefore - must be Norse / Vikings. Is this a "Circular Argument"?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

We know they had butternuts from the mainland further south.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:48 AM

Do you have a link for that Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 08:00 AM

Whatever was found may or not be evidence of a Viking presence but, the fact is, something was found and it was found from space. I find that pretty amazing.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 08:08 AM

Butternuts were mentioned in the programme and it was suggested that they did not grow in the area but came from further south. However I do not recall them as being definitive "proof" of a Viking presence in the area. All in all the programme did not answer any questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 09:11 AM

Whatever was found may or not be evidence of a Viking presence but, the fact is, something was found and it was found from space. I find that pretty amazing. - was presumably of meteoric origin -

the "Bog iron" is of metal extraction origin and possibly of Norse / Viking origin.

Was the date if the Butternut mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 09:17 AM

Not 100% Les but the inference was they were contemporary to the bog iron.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 11:22 AM

Les,
"Later excavations by Bengt Schoenbak and Birgitta Wallace for Parks Canada revealed more about the purpose of this settlement and the type of activities that took place here. Their work produced further evidence of wood-working and iron-smelting, suggesting that the main activity at the site was repairing damaged vessels or constructing new ones from wood obtained in the nearby forests. Butternuts and worked pieces of butternut wood-a tree that was not native to Newfoundland but was present one thousand years ago in northern Nova Scotia and New Brunswick-were also found. This discovery indicates that the people who lived at L'Anse aux Meadows had traveled further south into the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and had brought back nuts and wood native to those southern areas and were sampling the region's resources as described in the sagas. These finds suggest that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was a base-camp or gateway to the rich lands around the Gulf of St. Lawrence, which is likely the Vinland of the sagas."
http://naturalhistory.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/vinland/archeo.html

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the ref. Keith, all fascinating stuff.

The sagas, written then carried by oral tradition for 200 years don't seem too reliable especially in the hands of "cherry picking" pseudo historians - still the academics should introduce some backbone maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 02:04 PM

Elsewhere I have seen someone who has been lectured by the rather rude historian - he did not make such remarks inn her presence.

There does seem to be a curious attitude in Iceland (or at least from that historian) and the Faroes since the DNA surveys have been done, leading to a confusion that, in the Faroes, the men are descended from Vikings and the women from the British Isles (Ireland included). Cue stupid joke in the Faroes about the men stopping there because they did not want to go back home to their wives with their newly acquired women. Of course, both men and women are descended from both. I put one of the guides right on the Faroes, but not the sexist male one.

Presumably, the mitochondrial DNA links to Isles sources, and the Y chromosomes to Nordic. So the Celtic monks didn't make any DNA contribution (despite mixed houses and no great opposition to marriage) and Nordic women's mitochondria somehow didn't make much contribution either (which could happen randomly), though some are mentioned by name in the sagas.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Viking site found, New England
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:06 PM

For those of us in the UK the program is on again right now on BBC1 11.45 pm to 01.15.