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Origin: Scotland the Brave

DigiTrad:
SCOTLAND THE BRAVE
SCOTLAND THE BRAVE (2)


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Variations of Scotland the Brave (39)
Help: Scotland The Brave (20)
Tune Req: Scotland the Brave (9)
not Scotland the Brave but sort-of (4)
Lyr Req: Scotland the Brave (traditional version) (2) (closed)


john_howland@yahoo.com 07 Dec 99 - 02:14 PM
07 Dec 99 - 02:36 PM
Celtic-End Singer 08 Dec 99 - 11:41 AM
Celtic-End Singer 08 Dec 99 - 11:46 AM
Celtic-End Singer 08 Dec 99 - 11:47 AM
08 Dec 99 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,ironwood@qatar.net.qa 06 Mar 01 - 04:37 AM
Malcolm Douglas 06 Mar 01 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Ed Wilson - ironwood@qatar.net.qa 09 Mar 01 - 08:29 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 09 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM
Malcolm Douglas 10 Mar 01 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,emily rain 10 Mar 01 - 02:32 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 10 Mar 01 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,monmed@shaw.ca 23 Apr 02 - 11:27 PM
GUEST,Boab 24 Apr 02 - 02:50 AM
Scabby Douglas 24 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM
Lighter 03 Sep 15 - 02:43 PM
Jack Campin 03 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM
Lighter 03 Sep 15 - 05:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 15 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Lighter 03 Sep 15 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Lighter 03 Sep 15 - 06:27 PM
Jack Campin 03 Sep 15 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Lighter 03 Sep 15 - 09:44 PM
LadyJean 04 Sep 15 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Lighter 04 Sep 15 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 04 Sep 15 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Lighter 04 Sep 15 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Lighter 04 Sep 15 - 04:48 PM
Jack Campin 04 Sep 15 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 04 Sep 15 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Lighter 04 Sep 15 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Lighter 04 Sep 15 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Lighter 05 Sep 15 - 10:19 AM
Jack Campin 05 Sep 15 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Lighter 05 Sep 15 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Lighter 12 Sep 15 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Lighter 13 Sep 15 - 03:42 PM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 15 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 Sep 15 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 09:13 AM
Jack Campin 14 Sep 15 - 10:12 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 Sep 15 - 02:25 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 Sep 15 - 03:25 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 04:12 PM
Lighter 14 Sep 15 - 09:24 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 10:35 PM
GUEST 14 Sep 15 - 10:39 PM
Lighter 15 Sep 15 - 07:16 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 15 - 07:42 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM
Lighter 16 Sep 15 - 05:09 PM
Lighter 16 Sep 15 - 05:21 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 15 - 06:31 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 15 - 06:48 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 15 - 07:11 PM
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Lighter 17 Sep 15 - 02:23 PM
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Subject: Scotland the Brave again
From: john_howland@yahoo.com
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 02:14 PM

Hi, I need a history of the tune and lyrics of scotland the brave for the NWTA. I had thought it was later than the rev. war but I need provenance. Any help appreciated, please email me. thanks ,john


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From:
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 02:36 PM

Toby Rider, darkrider1@tullochgorm.com, maintainer of the Scots-L list, will sometimes forward non-member requests to the list members, and there are several members that are expert on Scottish music.


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Subject: Lyr Add: SCOTLAND THE BRAVE (Cliff Hanley)
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 11:41 AM

SCOTLAND THE BRAVE
(Lyrics by Cliff Hanley (1922-1999) to a Traditional tune)

Hark when the night is fallin', hear, hear the pipes a-callin'
Loudly and proudly callin' down through the glen.
There where the hills are sleepin', now feel the blood a-leapin'
High as the spirits of the old highland men!

CHORUS
Towering in gallant fame, Scotland my mountain hame!
High may your proud standards gloriously wave!
Land of the high endeavour, land of the shining river,
Land of my heart, forever, Scotland the brave!

High in the misty highlands, out by the purple islands,
Brave are the hearts that beat beneath Scottish skies!
Wild are the winds to meet you, staunch are the friends that greet you
Kind as the light that shines from fair maidens' eyes! CHORUS

Far-off in sunlit places, sad are the Scottish faces,
Yearnin' to feel the kiss of sweet Scottish rain!
Where tropic skies are beamin', love sets the heart a-dreamin',
Longin' and dreamin' for the homeland again! CHORUS


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 11:46 AM

Sorry, I always forget to do the html formatting. Cliff Hanley died only a few months ago. You can find his obituary at theherald.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 11:47 AM

Sorry, www.theherald.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From:
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:27 PM

"Danny Boy" for Scots.


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Subject: Scotland The Brave
From: GUEST,ironwood@qatar.net.qa
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 04:37 AM

Hi,

I'm looking for lyrics to Scotland the Brave. I have two, the ones found on the Muccat Cafe and begining Let Italy Boast (from John McDermott's album (and sufficiently blood thursty they are!) I left the Ranger's words on Mudcat but can get them at need - if ever.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Scotland The Brave
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 08:19 AM

Have you tried searching for scotland the brave through the "Digitrad and Forum Search" box on the main Forum page?  There are quite a lot of alternative texts and parodies here, which may quite easily be found in this way.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Scotland The Brave
From: GUEST,Ed Wilson - ironwood@qatar.net.qa
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 08:29 AM

Hi,

Yes, I checked the master list, and got 25 hits, two sets of lyrics, Hark Hark, and the Rangers set. You don't have "Let Italy Boast..."

SO anyone else got a set of lyrics?

Thanks

Ed Wilson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Scotland The Brave
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM

Good work Ed!,

Could ya post
Let Italy boast...?


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Subject: Lyr Add: SCOTLAND THE BRAVE
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 10:44 AM

Found at The John McDermott Fan Club:

SCOTLAND THE BRAVE (LET ITALY BOAST)

Let Italy boast of her gay gilded waters,
Her vines and her bowers and her soft sunny skies;
Her sons drinking love from the eyes of her daughters,
Where freedom expires amid softness and sighs.
Scotland's blue mountains, wild where hoary cliffs are piled,
Towering in grandeur are dearer tae me:
Land of the misty cloud, land of the tempest loud,
Land of the brave and proud land of the free.

Enthroned on the peak of her own highland mountains,
The spirit of Scotia reigns fearless and free;
Her green tartan waving o'er blue rock and fountain
And proudly she sings, looking over the sea.
Here, among my mountains wild, I have serenely smiled
When armies and empires against me were hurled:
Firm as my native rock, I have withstood the shock
Of England, of Denmark, or Rome and the world.

But see how proudly her war steeds are prancing;
Deep groves of steel trodden down in their path.
The eyes of my sons like their bright swords are glancing;
Triumphantly riding through ruin and death.
Bold hearts and nodding plumes wave o'er their bloody tombs,
Deepeyed in gore is the green tartan's wave.
Shivering are the ranks of steel, dire is the horseman's wheel;
Victorious in battlefield, Scotland the brave.

Unfortunately, McDermott seems to have named no source for this text, saying merely that it is "much older than Cliff [Hanley]'s." The two "versions" on the DT are both Hanley's well-known lyric (written around 1955, I think), though neither credits him:

Full transcription, a little marred by somebody's insistence on omitting final -g on many words.

Scotland the Brave A better transcription, though it lacks the final verse.

In the Forum:

Parody as recorded by The Corries

Cliff Hanley's lyric -final verse omitted.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Scotland The Brave
From: GUEST,emily rain
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 02:32 PM

bring me the whiskey mother,
I'm feeling friskey mother
bring me the sheep for i'm so lonely tonight
bring me the leather, rubber,
whips, chains, and peanut butter
england's forever but scotland's depraved

(i was never a member of SCA, but was often treated to their poetry.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Scotland The Brave
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Mar 01 - 05:46 PM

Thanks Malcolm, I think I'll do it just like that!


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From: GUEST,monmed@shaw.ca
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 11:27 PM

I heard somewhere that Father Sidney McEwan used to sing a variation of Scotland the Brave. The name, and much of the first line, were "Land of my heart"/ Does anyone know the rest of the lyrics to this one?


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 02:50 AM

I'm a Scot; it makes me cringe! Something like this made Hamish Henderson write the phrase "braggarts crousely craw". Written by a comedian; perhaps Harry Lauder came to him in a dream, bandy legs and crooked walking stick ans all. Good tune, though!


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Subject: RE: Help: Scotland the Brave again
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Cliff Hanley was a journalist and novelist, and although I have never liked his lyrics to Scotland the Brave, I kind of liked his prose writing.

The tune's an old one. I read somewhere that Hamish Henderson wrote "The John MacLean March" to a "piper's version" of Scotland the Brave.

The tunes are related, but not identical.

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: Origins: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 02:43 PM

The poem given by Malcolm in 2010 was originally called "Scottish National Melody."

The authoritative original words, by James Hyslop (1798-1827), are as follows:

Let Italy boast of her bloom-shaded waters,
Her bowers, and her vines, and her warm sunny skies,
Her sons drinking love from the eyes of her daughters,
While Freedom expires amidst softness and sighs:—
       Scotland's bleak mountains wild,
       Where hoary cliffs are piled,
    Towering in grandeur, are dearer to me;
         Land of the misty cloud—
         Land of the tempest loud-
   Land of the brave and proud land of the free!

Enthroned on the peak of the dark Highland mountain,
The Spirit of Scotland reigns fearless and free;
Her tartan-folds waving o'er blue lake and fountain,
Exulting she sings, looking over the sea,—
          Here 'mong my mountains wild
          I have serenely smiled
   When armies and empires against me were hurl'd;
         Firm as my native rocks,
         Calmly sustain'd the shocks
   Of Denmark, and Cesar, and Rome, and the World!

When kings of the nations in council assemble,
The frown of my brow makes their proud hearts to quake,
The flash of mine eye makes the bravest to tremble,
The sound of my war-song makes armies to shake;
         France long shall mind the strain
         Sung on her bloody plain,
   Made Europe's bold armies with terror to shiver !—
         Shrouded in fire and blood,
         Then sung the pibroch loud,
    "Dying, but unsubdued — Scotland for ever!"

See at the war-note my proud horses prancing,
   Deep groves of steel trodden down in their path;
The eyes of the brave like their bright swords are glancing         
   Triumphantly riding through ruin and death!
         Bold hearts and nodding plumes
         Dance o'er their bloody tombs—
   Shining in blood is the red tartan's wave.
         Dire is the horseman's wheel,   
         Shivering the ranks of steel
   Still victor in battle-field, Scotland the brave!

The poem appeared, apparently for the first time, in "The Edinburgh Magazine" (April, 1821), pp. 360-361.

Hyslop specifies the melody as " 'Roderick Vich Alpine Dhu,' &c." which is none other than Scott's "Boat Song" from "The Lady of the Lake" (1810).

A musical setting of Scott's "Song" has become the American Presidential march, "Hail to the Chief!" That melody, described as "A favorite Air of Sanderson," appeared no later than Washington's Birthday, 1815, under the title "Wreaths for the Chieftain," with lyrics by L. M. Sargent

Hyslop's words would go well to the popular Scottish march tune.

That seems to have first been published in Darley & McCall's "Feis Ceoil Collection of Irish Airs" in 1914 (p. 18). They called it "The Irishman's Toast."

This melody, in 4/4, differs but little from the now standard "Scotland the Brave."

It was received in or after 1897 from "Mr. James Corrigan, Clara, Co. Kilkenny." The editors note that "This air was adapted to the Fenian ballad, 'General Burke's Dream,' a broadsheet published by Nugent & Co., Cook Street, Dublin." (That ballad, published between about 1850 and 1899, is Roud 1893.)

As is so often the case, we are left with maddening uncertainty about just which words were sung to which tune - and, for that matter, beginning when.

What is certain, though, is that the tune of "Scotland the Brave," whoever composed it, has long been anonymous and traditional, and by 1914 was known in Co. Kilkenny. under a completely different title.

In other words, it is as much a Scottish-Irish folk *tune* as any other.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

The tune for StB is called "Brave Scotland" in the Gesto Collection of the 1880s (big Scottish fiddle tune book). I've seen in a manuscript book of pipe band tunes used by the Boys Brigade in Edinburgh during WW1, called "Scotland the Brave!!" - no idea where they got it. Maybe Cliff Hanley was in the BB? At any rate, there's no reason to suppose the route of transmission went through Ireland.

FWIW, Hamish Henderson's "John Maclean March" used the tune a year before Hanley wrote StB. Henderson just called it "traditional" without naming it when he first published the song.

It had never occurred to me that "Hail to the Chief" and StB had anything to do with each other.

Who was Sanderson? The Scottish broadside publishing family of that name didn't get started until about 1830.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:36 PM

Acc. to Elise J. Kirk, in "Hail to the Chief" (American Music, 1997) no less than *three* musical adaptations of "The Lady of the Lake" were playing in London in 1811! Which tells me, at least, that there was more than one melody set to Scott's words.

Kirk writes persuasively that the "American" tune of "Hail to the Chief" was composed by the London violinist James Sanderson (1769-1841) for the version of "The Lady" dramatized by Thomas J. Dibdin in 1810. The music was published in America a little earlier than Levy (and therefore I) had thought, namely between 1812 and 1814.

Perhaps strangely, Sanderson became responsible within a few months for the music in the stage adaptation by John Edmund Eyre a few months later. We don't know whether he imported his original tune or composed a new one.

The third version of "The Lady" was written by Thomas Morton, with music by Henry Rowley Bishop and was also produced in London in 1811.

Kirk tells nothing about Bishop's melody.

Because the phrase "Scotland the Brave" appears prominently in Hyslop's poem, it may be that the tune of "Scotland the Brave" was composed either by James Sanderson or (perhaps more likely) Henry Rowley Bishop in 1811 to accompany Scott's lyrics about "Roderick Vich Alpine Dhu."

Or it could be that Hyslop's melody was the "American" "Hail to the Chief."

Or it could also be that "Scotland the Brave," by someone else, was set retroactively to Hyslop's lyrics!

Infuriating, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:12 PM

"By 1914 it was known in Co Kilkenny, under a completely different title"

That presumably would refer to O'Donnell Abu, the " Tyrconnel war song" written in 1843 by Michael McCann. Great song, in the DT already.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:13 PM

On Jan. 1, 1883, "The Evening News" of Portsmouth reported (p. 3) that

"Just as the clock rolled the knell of the parting year the band of the Black Watch, which is stationed at the Cambridge Barracks, struck up 'Auld Lang Syne,' followed by 'Good New Year' and 'Scotland the Brave.'"

That would seem to be the earliest reference to a tune by that name - the modern one, one hopes.

The "Belfast News-Letter" (Jan. 28, 1888), p. 7, mentions that
"Mr. Thomas Harper and Mr. George Vance" performed "Scotland, the Brave" as a flute duet at a social gathering.

According to the "Dundee Courier and Argus" (Sept. 12, 1894), p. 4, the band of the Gordon Highlanders marched to the Town and County Hall playing "The Hieland Laddie," "Alison's March," and "Scotland the Brave."

I don't know when the tune was first published (or perhaps recorded on wax) under the familiar title.

(The above information comes from the Gale-Cengage database, "British Library Nineteenth Century Newspapers," which seems to be available only through libraries. I could find no pre-1918 mentions in "The Times.")


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:27 PM

The title in question was "The Irishman's Toast."

However, the popular melody of "O'Donnell Abu" bears a genuine resemblance and is clearly part of this tangled story.

The Ballad Index observes that McCann's "O'Donnell Abu" first appeared in "The Spirit of the Nation" (Jan. 28, 1843), directed to be sung, like Hyslop's poem of 22 years earlier, to the tune of "Roderick Vick Alpine Dhu."

However, "it became famous with another tune composed by Joseph Haliday."


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 07:54 PM

This

J.D. Ross Watt: The Empire Collection, 1934

gives "Scotland the Brave" as a reel, with "O'Donnell Abv." as an alternate title. It's close to the standard modern StB tune.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 09:44 PM

Fascinating! The claim that it's *also* the tune to "O'Donnell" merely adds to the confusion - as does the late date of 1934-36.

ABCs for Corrigan's "Irishman's Toast":

X:1
T:Irishman's Toast, The
T:Scotland the Brave
M:2/4
L:1/8
B:Feis Ceóil Collection of Irish Airs (1914, No. 42)
K:D
D2 DE|FDFA|d2 fe|dAFD|G2 BG|F2 AF|E2 EF|
AGFE|D2 DE|FDFA|d2 fe|dAFD|GBdB|A2 FD|
E2DD|D4||e2 ef|ec A2|d2 fe|dAFA|
d2 fd|c2 dc|BdcB|AGFE|D2 DE|FDFA|
d2 fe|dAFD|GBdB|A2 FD|E2 DD|D4||

   
Here are lyrics to "The Irishman's Toast." They do not scan to the above tune. Some lines are simply too short:


Don't call me weak-minded, perchance I should sing,
Of the dearest old spot upon earth;
And don't think me foolish should memory bring
To my mind the dear land of my birth:
With its hills and its valleys, its mountains and vales,
Of which our forefathers would boast,
Of a dear little island all covered with green-
Ah, but list' and I'll give you an Irishman's toast:

Chorus.
Here's to the land of the shamrock so green.
Here's to each boy and his darling colleen.
Here's to the ones we love dearest and most,
May God speed old Ireland - that's an Irishman's toast.

My mind's eye oft pictures my old cabin home,
Where it stood by the murmuring rill,
Where my playmates and I oft together did roam,
Through the castle that stood on the hill;
But the stout hand of time has destroyed the old cot,
And the farm now lies barren and bare;
Around the old porch there is ivy entwined,
But the birds seem to warble this toast in the air:
Here's to the land of the shamrock so, &c.

The church and the school-house have long been replaced;
In the Harp Hotel dwells a new host;
The white-haired old veteran has long been at rest,
And his wife has deserted her post;
King Death, the stern reaper, has called them away,
And their children have gone o'er the seas:
There is nothing but strangers around the old spot,
Still this toast seems to waft to my ears on the breeze:
Here's to the land, of the shamrock so, &c.

The song is B133797 in Roud's Broadside Index. Roud lists a text from "Hanson's Comic & Sentimental Recitations" (N.Y., 1883). It appears in later songsters as well.

Acc. to someone at this site
http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-147337.html the Irish name for "Scotland the Brave" is "Bonnie Lass." Is this so?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:55 AM

I will point out that the last verse of Scotland the Brave is supposed to bring rain. People living in the western states might want to sing it a few times.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:19 AM

Thanks, LJ. Will see if it works on a Bb whistle. We could use some rain here.

I wonder if the alleged title "Bonnie Lassie" comes from a poor recollection of Harry Lauder's "I Love a Lassie." A few bars (but no more) somewhat resemble "Scotland the Brave" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcCyHc89m7A


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:16 PM

Surprised that it has not been said that the tune is The Bloody Fields Of Flanders. This is in turn a piper version of the song tune Bonny Glenshee. Hamish Henderson pointed this out.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:29 PM

Ewan, I don't hear much of a resemblance at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJ5Sl-x5t8

Could you explain precisely how "Flanders" resembles "Scotland"?

To my ear, "Bonny Glenshee" may be a smidgen closer to "Scotland the Brave," but I can't imagine anyone ever confusing them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJ5Sl-x5t8

Corrigan's "Irishman's Toast" of ca1910, however, hardly differs from "Scotland the Brave."


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:48 PM

To clarify, I'm not saying that "Scotland the Brave" comes from "The Irishman's Toast." The opposite is far more likely.

References to the Scottish march suggest that it became popular around 1880 and was circulating anonymously among Highland regimental bands.

Surprisingly, "The Irishman's Toast" looks to be the earliest printing of (a clearly recognizable variant of) "Scotland the Brave." It seems impossible to know for certain when the modern version became current, because printings are so surprisingly late!

It is just possible that Hyslop's poem either inspired the tune, or (less likely) was inspired by it. It's surely significant that the poem's unusual scansion almost perfectly matches the tune, and that it ends with the words "Scotland the brave!"

The 1934-36 confusion of "Scotland the Brave" and "O'Donnell Aboo" is to me also surprising. Maybe it was simply someone's misrecollection or misunderstanding that became enshrined in print.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:28 PM

The Gesto Collection is from the 1880s. I think that's the earliest in print. I don't have a copy handy but I seem to remember it's set in the style of a typical "fiddle march".


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 06:19 PM

Well, I carefully said that Hamish Henderson stated this tune relationship before me. I then thought about it, and considered that I could recognise a good family sequence of these song tunes. I know that others disagree. I do not have the musicologist skill to explain what I am identifying in the shape, the distinctive lift in the second half of the tunes, and the key notes in the tunes, sorry. We hear what we hear, and make sense of it as we can.
Hamish Henderson wrote to me that in 1943 he heard 'The Bloody Fields of Flanders', a pipe march that was made during the First World War, played on the beachhead at Anzio in Italy, and remembered it when he came to write the 'The Freedom Come-All-Ye', and before that for 'The John Maclean March'.
Cliff Hanley wrote his lyric 'to an old pipe tune' for a show in the Glasgow Empire music hall in around 1950, to first be sung in public by Robert Wilson, who needed a song to close the act of his performance at a Christmas Scottish review musical show. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can identify a different pipe tune as Cliff's source?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:07 PM

Thanks, Jack and Ewan.

The British Library dates the Gesto Collection to 1893.

According to Nigel Gatherer at The Session, the tune there "goes under the title 'Scotland For Ever' or 'Brave Scotland', and is described as a 'Trumpet March'."

The tune seems not to be anywhere online.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:21 PM

From "The 42d Highlanders," Morning Post (London), Nov. 11, 1869, p.3:

"During the march to Inverleith toll the band played 'Scotland for Ever,' 'The Red, White, and Blue,' 'Home, Sweet Home,' and 'Loudon's Bonnie Woods and Braes.'"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 10:19 AM

John McDermott sings the words posted by Malcolm (and slightly adapted from Hyslop, 1821) to the familiar "Scotland the Brave" tune - under the title "Scotland Forever":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaQOHoG-RrA

And Ewan, always when I say tunes are "close variants" or "about the same," I mean that the average quasi-musical person like myself recognizes them as very much the same. When I say they're "different," I mean that it takes quite a perceptive listener to discover a real resemblance.

Joe asked on another thread whether "Do Me Ama" and "Yarmouth Town" are "the same song." I think that question comes from overexposure to the early ballad scholars' desire to find traditional "links" and then lump songs together as being the "same," even if the textual and melodic differences are obvious.

I think the tunes of "Scotland the Brave" and Corrigan's "Irishman's Toast" are "about the same." The usual tune of "O'Donnell Abu" bears only a slight *melodic* resemblance, and melodies are what I'm talking about. "Hail to the Chief" bears none. "The Bloody Fields of Flanders" bears none except perhaps somewhat in the opening bars. To my way of thinking, that means that like "Hail to the Chief," it's a different tune by any ordinary standards.

The latter tunes differ even more than do the words of "Yarmouth Town" and "Do Me Ama." They're unmistakable.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 11:19 AM

Cliff Hanley used a tune which was already known as "Scotland the Brave" when he wrote his song (1949, I think). Henderson didn't seem to have a name for it when he wrote The John Maclean March in 1948.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 11:45 AM

> Henderson didn't seem to have a name for it...in 1948.

Hard to imagine....

But with so few early mentions, maybe it only became a "standard" at the end of WW2? Or, as a result of Hanley's song, even later?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:33 PM

Charles R. Martin, "Adventures of a Highland Soldier on Active Service

at Home and Abroad" (Ottawa, 1892), p.5:


"We arrived in Cork at about six a.m. of a Sunday morning [in January, 1868]., and as we marched through the streets with the band playing 'Scotland the Brave,' you could plainly hear them say, 'What a foine body o' men,' etc."


Martin enlisted in the 92nd Gordon Highlanders in 1867. After nearly twenty-five years, his memory may have been incorrect, but at least he firmly places "Scotland the Brave" in the latter 1860s as a favorite march; this is in line with the contemporary mention of it in the Morning Post as being played in London in 1869.

The plausible appearance of "Scotland the Brave" in Ireland in the late '60s supports the idea that Corrigan's "Irishman's Toast" became known to uillean pipers not long after, though perhaps they did not know (or appreciate) the Scottish military title. Hence its replacement by "The Irishman's Toast" and possibly others - including, apparently, "O'Donnell Abu."

A number of Scottish tune books for war pipes were published in the nineteenth century. Few of these are online. It now seems likely that "Scotland the Brave," under one title or another, appeared in one or more of them even before the Gesto Collection in 1893.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:42 PM

I've now been able to consult the "Gesto" version.

It is almost identical to "Scotland the Brave" as currently played.

The editor, Keith Norman Macdonald, writes in his preface that he has carried *most* of the tunes "about" with him for "upwards of thirty years."

Whether he means in manuscript or just in memory, he doesn't say.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:36 PM

Likely that Macdonald meant it was in his head, and it originated a generation becore he published it.

Very few tune books for the Highland pipes were published in that period. Pekaar's index should cover them all. It wouldn't be surprising if the tune circulated in oral tradition and manuscript for that long. The odd thing is the allusions that suggest it was well known to the general public in the 1860s - in that case, you would expect a paper trail.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 08:05 AM

> in that case, you would expect a paper trail.

Possibly not. If the piece was composed by a regimental piper or pipe-major, it may well have circulated aurally or in manuscript for years without publication.

It's an easy tune to memorize. I did so in no time when I was about eleven, after hearing it two or three times in a commercial for Campbell's "tender-hearted beans."

The tune was undoubtedly better known to the general public than the title. (This is true of many pieces today.) Hence "The Irishman's Toast," "Scotland for Ever," "Brave Scotland," "Bonnie Lassie," and, perhaps, the confusion with "O'Donnell Abu." If the Victorian journalists did not know the title of one of the tunes played, they could simply ask.

What we know for certain is that a tune called "Scotland for Ever" (the title given to "Scotland the Brave" by Macdonald in 1893) was played in 1869) and "Scotland the Brave" from at least 1883.

If no other tune is known to have gone by these titles, the simplest interpretation is that today's "Scotland the Brave" was played - in easily recognizable form - by Highland regiments as early the latter 1860s, but was not published (and then anonymously) till the 1890s. By 1897, even some uillean pipers like Corrigan were playing it.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 09:13 AM

I found a couple of references to Scotland the Brave in the 1870's and 80's - both as a theater song (obviously not Hanley's 1940's version), and as a military instrumental.   But is it a totally unrelated song or tune of the same name? If you go to the website British Newspaper Library Archive, there is an on-line (incomplete) index of UK newspapers. Type the phrase in (put in exact match). And you get tantalizing mentions and a line extract, but you have to join and pay a hefty fee to see the full entry.

This is one of Scotland's most important tunes, almost our anthem -yet the Wiki entry is wrong, the Scottish National Library are also wrong in their dating of the first mentions of it.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 10:12 AM

the Scottish National Library are also wrong in their dating of the first mentions of it.

You mean the National Library of Scotland?

What are you referring to, and why would dating a tune be part of their remit?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 01:40 PM

http://www.nls.uk/collections/music/songindex/fullrecord.cfm?searcher=%AC&idnum=327

The National Library have a new song/tune database (on-line), with very short MP3 instrumental stabs and notation. They also give a little potted history of the tunes. Jack you and others have taken the tune back further than the 'official' sources, if they are all referring to the same one.

The National Library collect diverse cultural material, not just books and prints.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 02:25 PM

Thanks, Guest. By punching the wrong button I inadvertently deleted a long list of quotations from that site, which I don't have the patience to retype.

But in summary, they prove that a tune called "Scotland the Brave" was mentioned not infrequently in Scottish newspapers from 1868 or '69 right into the '90s, after which no further examples seem necessary.

Guest's earliest NLS example, in 4/2 time, is from 1891. And it explicitly accompanies the words of Hyslop's poem.

"Miss E. Hunter, the Famous Scottish Prima Donna" is noted as having sung a stage song by that name on various occasions in 1878-79. Surely this was the tune and text that the NLS 1891 source had in mind.


As for the "O'Donnell" connection,

http://digital.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/15846 :

"The tune for O'Donnell Abu was composed in the early part of the 19th century by Joseph Haliday, a man from Carrick-on-Suir, Co. Tipperary. He was bandmaster of the Cavan militia. Michael McCann, a young Galway man, added words to the music."

"The early part" could mean any time before 1850. Hyslop's poem appeared in 1821, in exactly the right measure to fit either "STB" or "O'Donnell." The above statement, however, contradicts the one I've already posted which claims that Haliday wrote the tune to fit McCann's 1843 words and to replace an earlier one!

Either way, one tune may well have influenced the other. "Scotland the Brave" may have come first, simply owing to the 1821 date of the poem, which Hyslop intended to be sung to "Roderick Vich Alpine Dhu." On the other hand, our limited evidence suggests that "StB" became known only in the 1860s, at least ten years after Haliday's composition.

If only we had the one or two other "Roderick" tunes (other than "Hail to the Chief") composed in 1811, we'd know more!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 02:48 PM

Thanks Lighter, that is a superb and important summary.   You and all earlier contributors take a work of national importance back further in history than sources such as NLS and Wiki.   The problem is nobody else has put it all this down, apart from on this site - so it's time a revision was made.   Some on-line sources say it's not as ancient a tune as it sounds (implying late 19th/early 20th century).   WE NOW KNOW it's at least mid-19th century - but can't find an original contemporary music manuscript with it from that period. You'd think when it was being theatrically performed and also for military bands, that somebody must have written it down.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 03:25 PM

Newspaper searches for "Scotland Forever/...for Ever" and "Brave Scotland" in musical contexts before 1893 seem to be virtually impossible.   There are just too many appearances of the words.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:12 PM

If you type in exact phrase search of the British Newspaper Archive search it helps. Then it gives a date range to narrow it down further. However, the Optical Recognition software that they used often gives misread gibberish characters - so it's hit and miss as to what comes up. Then you have to pay to actually see the full entry.

From this index there seems to be an entry 'Brave Scotland' in an advert from 1891 for the fourth edition Simon Fraser collection. However, I am seeing the two words without full context. So it may not be real.   I found FULL free download scanned PDF's of an 1870'S edition of Fraser's collection and an earlier edition - neither contain the title 'Brave Scotland' or 'Scotland the Brave' etc.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 09:24 PM

A reel learned in Edinburgh in 1995 that clearly derives from "STB" - and almost deserves the same title:

http://www.folktunefinder.com/tune/17195/


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 10:35 PM

This reel mentioned above by Lighter- originally a fiddle tune was a Tom Anderson work, Susan T. Robertson. It is very similar to STB in cadences but with suitable changes to create another copyright work. The late Tom Anderson is not credited on the link, but is credited with the MCPS/PRS and it appeared in one of his printed tune collections.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 10:39 PM

Whoops!   Sorry misread my own writing

IT'S FRANCIS T. ROBERTSON by TOM ANDERSON!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:16 PM

Relevant?

Concert Program, Theatre Royal, Covent Garden (Feb. 15, 1826) [from database Nineteenth Century Collections Online]:

"Part III, A GRAND MISCELLANEOUS ACT To commence with the celebrated overture to ZAUBERFLOTE. - (Mozart)

"Song, Miss PATON - 'Bonny brave Scotland.'"

The bill for May 13, 1826, elaborates the description of Miss Paton's number to "Scotch Song...'Bonny brave Scotland.'"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:42 PM

Lighter There is a 19th century print of 'Bonny Brave Scotland' lyric here.   Ballads on line.

http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/static/images/sheets/25000/22960.gif


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

I've got a temporary subscription to Find My Past. It has the newspaper index and pages.   I have found a reference to "Scotland the Brave" AS THE FORMAL TITLE of Hyslop's 'song'. ... "Following stirring and patriotic song".   It then has Hyslop's words claimed to be a fresh work under the STB name - when the were in fact published decades earlier in 1821 by the Scots magazine under the completely different title.   This is in the Dumfries and Galloway Standard of 9th November 1859.

From the early 1860's - 1880's (before the known printed editions) there are then numerous entries for a music theater song of the name 'Scotland The Brave', and a military band tune which is stated to be a march - and associated with a number of regiments.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:09 PM

Very interesting. Elsewhere I read that "Bonny Brave Scotland" was sung to the outstanding tune by Niel Gow to which James Hogg set the words of "Cam Ye by Athol?"

The melody is called "Lady Ann Carnegie's Favorite" :

http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=tunearch.org/wiki/Lady_Ann_Carnegie%27s_Favorite.no-ext/0001

So there's no real relationship to "Scotland the Brave."

The early mentions of the tune "Scotland the Brave" all relate to military bands as far back as the 1860s. The composition of the melody may well have been inspired by the words of Hyslop's poem and by Haliday's "O'Donnell Abu."

If it was composed in the 1860s by a regimental bandmaster (say, in the 92d Gordon Highlanders, Charles R. Martin's regiment) it might well have escaped notice in print for many years and its composer might have remained anonymous.

And the song performed by Miss Hunter in the '70s may plausibly be explained as Hyslop's words wedded to an arrangement of the same march.

Without a manuscript notation of the 1870s or earlier (preferably with the date and the name of the composer), the details of the origin of "Scotland the Brave" - beyond its apparent inspiration in the words of Hyslop's "Scottish National Melody" are likely to remain permanently elusive.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:21 PM

Guest, our posts crossed. Congratulations on your investment and your crucial 1859 discovery, as well as further references.

It would be perverse to doubt that the stage song "STB" was based on Hyslop's lyric and sung to more or less the modern marching tune.

The evidence reinforces my suggestion that the tune appeared in the '60s - though 1859 is just as likely. (It could be earlier, of course, but the evidence seems not to be there.)

Now who was the genius behind the tune?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:31 PM

Hyslop's words are a very bad fit to the modern StB tune. If somebody was trying to write a new tune for them (why? they're crap) they'd have used a different metrical scheme.

Hanley described how he came to write StB and the occasion of its first performance, but I don't recall him saying anything at all about the tune.

The earliest copy of a tune called Scotland the Brave for the pipes that I can find in Pekaar's index was from:

Piping For Boys, J. Percy Sturrock; Stirling: Eneas Mackay, 43 Murray Place; 1909 (Cannon 340)

which would have been the source for the Boys Brigade manuscript I read in the NLS. Pekaar doesn't do dates very well, though.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:48 PM

Lighter, you and I are the only ones enjoying the challenge!   My last contribution. We know that it was also called 'Brave Scotland' and is in the Gesto collection 1891-5.

I have also found that in 1891-2 'Brave Scotland March' was published in Book 4, 3rd edition of Captain S. Fraser's collection put out in Inverness. So does this mean it appeared in an earlier edition - or was it added then?

The 1859 use of the title 'Scotland the Brave' on the front page of the newspaper, is the first time the phrase appears as a title in a musical context in any British Newspaper (so far scanned). This could though be any tune called 'Scotland the Brave' as annoyingly we have no full proof. We do know that there is a military march of that name. That's probably as far as we can go!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:11 PM

Captain Simon Fraser died in 1852, and as far as I know the only edition of his collection that he had anything to do with was published in 1816 (it bankrupted him). Anybody republishing it in the 1890s with their own additions would not have been referring to any older source for the new stuff. They probably just got it from Keith Norman Macdonald.

"Brave Scotland" is in F in the Gesto Collection. It's in C a bit later in two of Logan's collections (Highland Music and the Inverness Collection). The key variation suggests it didn't come from the pipe band repertoire - if it had, it would have stayed in A/D within the 9-notes-from-G, 2-sharps scale. The pipe tunes recycled for the fiddle by Kerr and Mozart Allan, or the known ones recycled by Logan himself, weren't messed around like that.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:02 PM

Sorry Jack I thought you were Lighter!!! That's fantastic research.   It's you and Lighter who have done all this work and disprove some of the stuff that's floating on the Internet.   In the advert It has Inverness Collection and a long spiel below the Captain S. Fraser and doesn't split the two it's all on one advert. Maybe I'm mixing The Inverness Collection books with Fraser's? Is it in various parts? The advert is a bit confusing and runs together. I have the 1878 edition of the Fraser book (free PDF) and the 1816 one (free PDF) and it's not in either. I'll check the ad. again. The 1859 newspaper printing is definite for the Hyslop 'Scotland the Brave' and the first newspaper mention of the title (so far) - but we'll never know the tune!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:11 PM

JUST CHECKED AND THE ADVERT MADE ME MAKE A MISTAKE. IT IS IN THE INVERNESS COLLECTION, NOT SIMON FRASER'S THE PUBLISHERS DIDN'T SPLIT THE ADVERTHEADING VERY WELL.

SO CAPTAIN S. FRASERS COLLECTION DOES NOT INCLUDE BRAVE SCOTLAND MARCH. It's in the INVERNESS COLLECTION BOOK 4 3rd Edition.

If only we could upload images life would be much easier!   Thanks for helping me unravel this mystery a bit Jack, and Lighter.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Scotland the Brave
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:23 PM

Sung slowly and dramatically enough, I think Hyslop's words do scan the melody reasonably well - at least as well as they do "Roderick Vich McAlpine" - assuming Hyslop was thinking of Sanderson's "Hail to the Chief."

While Guest is right that we don't know for sure what words or melody was used for "Scotland the Brave" on the stage, his discovery of an 1859 newspaper printing of "Scottish National Melody" under the new title of "Scotland the Brave" - added to the fact that the apparently new melody fits the words well enough (especially the internal rhymes that are emphasized by the high part of the tune)- makes it far more likely than not that Hyslop's lyrics were sung to a recognizable version of the familiar tune. Otherwise we'd have to conjecture additional tunes and perhaps additional lyrics, even though there's no evidence they existed.

To push the analysis just a little further: the "STB" march may be a military adaptation of a more leisurely melodic style. Think of various pop songs played by marching bands today.

Jack's observation about the key change from Logan to Macdonald is valuable. The two editors seem to have learned the tune independently. Hence the disparate titles of "Brave Scotland" and "Scotland for Ever." (The latter phrase, of course, is also in Hyslop's song. It is said to have been the battle-cry of the Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815.)

It is significant that Macdonald specifically calls it a "trumpet march" rather than a pipe march.


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