Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 16 - 04:38 PM

Do you have any more info on the NC version given by Leach in The Ballad Book, taken from JAF xlvi 25?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 16 - 04:38 PM

Do you have any more info on the NC version given by Leach in The Ballad Book, taken from JAF xlvi 25?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 16 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

Yes, I'll post it. Here's brief bio on Graham: George Vinton Graham was born November 12, 1871 in Iowa and died Oct. 1, 1947 in Santa Clara, CA. He learned songs from his mother when he was a boy in Iowa, and also his aunt from Ohio.

When George Vinton Graham forgot his words while singing, Robertson (Cowell) jotted down that "Mr. Graham's gravity was disturbed by the antics of the photographer."

Here's the version Leach reprinted from JAF:

SOME SONGS AND BALLADS FROM TENNESSEE AND NORTH CAROLINA
ISABEL GORDON CARTER

During the summer of 1923, while collecting folk stories in the mountains of eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina, the writer heard many songs and ballads and took down the words of fifty of them. During the past twenty years so much excellent work has been done in recording both the words and music of old songs in the United States that some hesitancy is felt in publishing these songs without the accompanying music.

3. OVER HIGH HILLS AND LONELY MOUNTAINS - Recorded from Abie Shepherd, Bryson City, N. C. c. 1923

1. In seaboard town there was a merchant,
He had two sons and a daughter fair;
And prettiest boy was bounden to him
And to him he was the same.

2. Late one night they was silent a courting,
Her brother's heard what they did say;
"That long courtship shall soon be ended
By forcing you into your grave."

3. They rose next morning early starting,
Hunting these three men did go
Over high hills and lonely mountains,
And then into the place of woe.

4. Late that night while they was returning,
She asked, "Where is the servant man?
Oh Brothers, you seem to whisper lowly,
Oh, brothers, do tell me if you can."

5. "We lost him in some suits[1] of hunting,
The face of him you no more shall see;
What makes you seem so much affronted?
Why do you examine me?"

6. Late that night while she was returning,
His ghost to her bedside appeared;
His face was badly bruised and bleeding,
His cheeks all in his blood was smeared.

7. "Weep not for me, my dearest jewel,
To weep for me 'tis all in vain;
Go straight way to yon ditch of briars,
There you find me dead and slain."

8. She rose next morning early starting,
Hunting that dear boy of hers;
She went till she came to the ditch of briars,
And there she found him dead and slain.

9. His face was bloody as the butcher,
Tears in his eyes like salty brine.
She kissed his cold pale cheeks a crying,
Saying "This dear boy was a friend of mine."

10. "Now since my brothers have been so cruel,
As to force your dear sweet life away,
One grave shall serve us both together,
While I have breath with you I'll stay."

11. For three days she fasted o'er him,
Until her heart was filled with woe;
"I feel sharp hunger creeping o'er me,
Homeward, or die, I'm bound to go."

12. Late that night while she was returning,
Her brothers asked where she had been;
"Go way, go way, you cruel murderers
For this dear boy you have slain."

13. Now to get rid of the cruel murder,
Was to sail across the deep blue sea.
The wind did blow and it ain't no wonder
And they[2] blew them both into their graves.

1. sports
2. it (the wind)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 16 - 05:10 PM

Hi,

The following versions are at the LOC that I don't have. If anyone has access to any of them let me know:

1) The bramble briar
sound recording | Sung and played by Mrs. Dora Ward. (Statement Of Responsibility). Cf. Cox, No. 88. Elizabeth Lomax In seaport town lived a rich merchant (First Line). Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Ward, Dora - Lomax, Alan - Lyttleton, Elizabeth
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1938-04-10

2) The bramble briar
sound recording | Sung by Samuel P. Harmon. (Statement Of Responsibility). Cf. Henry, p. 161. Fragment. Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Halpert, Herbert - Harmon, Samuel P.
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1939-04-26

3) In seaport town (The bramble briar)
sound recording | Sung by Mrs. Lena Bare Turbyfill. (Statement Of Responsibility). Restricted. Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Halpert, Herbert - Turbyfill, Lena Bare
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1939-04-00

4) The rich merchant (The bramble briar)
sound recording | Sung by Joe Hubbard. (Statement Of Responsibility). Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Halpert, Herbert - Hubbard, Joe
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1939-04-00

5) The lonesome valley
sound recording | Sung by Gant family. (Statement Of Responsibility). Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Lomax, John Avery - Lomax, Alan - Gant Family
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1934-11-00

6) In Seaport Town
sound recording | Sung by Mrs. Maud Gentry Long of Hot Springs, North Carolina. (Statement Of Responsibility). Library of Congress. Recording Laboratory (Venue). Sound Recording (Form).
    Contributor: Library of Congress. Recording Laboratory - Long, Maud
    Original Format: Audio Recordings
    Date: 1947-00-00

We know Sam Harmon's version (above) because it is the same as his wife's (Henry collected it) which came from Council Harmon, his grandfather.

We know Maud Gentry Long's version (above) came from her mother Jane Hicks Gentry- only Sharp included only one stanza of Jane's text with the tune. Smith lists it but I can't access on google books- anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 16 - 05:38 PM

Hi,

Here's the Country and Western version Steve mentioned. It was collected for Parler:

Lonesome Valley- Sung by Tommy Doyle. Instrumental by T. Doyle at Hilltop Cafe between Diamond and Neoshe, Mo. Jan. 2, 1965.

She traveled over rocks and great tall mountains,
Through the hills and valleys below,
Till she came to the Lonesome Valley;
There she found him dead in the snow.

She went back home and saw her brother,
She said, "You done a terrible thing.
I'm going tell the local sheriff,"
Now her brother's a-gonna hang.

He was her love before he was killed,
In the Lonesome Valley below,
But she's gone from this Lonesome Valley,
His body's buried six feet below.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

Here are the 48 US versions I've put on my site.

    Bridgewater Merchant- Stevens (NY) 1820 Thompson
    Apprentice Boy- Lambertson (OH-MI) 1850s Gardner
    Merchant's Daughter- Mayhew (MO) 1870 Belden A
    Bamboo Briers- Hannah Ross (VA-WV) 1875 Cox A
    The Bramble Brier- Goon (OH) pre1876 Eddy
    The Bamboo Brier- Harmon (TN-NC) pre1880 Henry
    The Bramble Brier- (NY) Wehman's Songster 1890
    Jealous Brothers- Hammontree (AR) 1890s Randolph
    Lonesome Valley- Walker (OK-MO) pre1906 Moores
    Lonesome Valley- Pettit (KY) 1907 Kittredge
    One Evening as I Sat Courting- Churchill (TX) 1910
    The Apprentice Boy- (KY) pre1911 Shearin
    Lonesome Valley- Sol Shelton (NC) 1916 Sharp MS
    In Maple City- Banner Chandley (NC) 1916 Sharp MS
    In Seaport Town- Alfred Norton (TN) 1916 Sharp MS
    In Seaport Town- Hester House (NC) 1916 Sharp MS
    In Seaport Town- Stella Shelton (NC) 1916 Sharp A
    In Seaport Town- Martha Gosnell (NC) 1916 Sharp B
    In Boston Town- Rosie Hensley (NC) 1916 Sharp C
    In Seaport Town- Jane Gentry (NC) 1916 Sharp D
    Near Bridgewater- Eliza Pace (KY) 1917 Sharp E
    In Transport Town- Broghton (KY) 1917 Sharp F
    In Seaport Town- H. Smith (KY) 1917 Sharp G
    In Newport Town- Nora Haynes (NC) 1917 Sharp MS
    Bamboo Briars- Minnie Doyel (MO) 1917 Barbour
    A Ditch of Briers- Wheeler (VA) 1918 Sharp H
    In Seaport Town- Sina Boone (VA) 1918 Sharp I
    In Seaport Town- Julie Boone (NC) 1918 Sharp MS
    Lonesome Valley- F. Richards (VA) 1918 Sharp MS
    Jealous Brothers- Sutterfield (AR) c.1918 Wolf A
    Over High Hills- Abie Shepherd (NC)1923 Carter JAF
    The Hunt- Frank Proffitt (NC) 1924 Brown A
    Brandberry Briars- Frances Sanders (WV) 1924 Cox C
    Bomberry Brier- Moore (WV) pre1925 Cox B
    The 'Prentice Boy- Becky Gordon (NC) 1928 Brown B
    The Bamboo Briars- Hopkins (IN) 1935 Brewster
    The Bridgewater- Graham (CA-IO) 1938 Cowell REC
    The Ditch of Briars- Yorks (NC) 1940 Brown C
    Late One Sunday Evening- Gore (TX) 1941 Owens
    Branbury Briars- Elizabeth Jensen(UT) 1947 Hubbard
    Two Lovers Set Sparking- High (AR) 1951 BK REC
    Lonesome Valley- P. Brewer (AR) 1958 REC Parler B
    In the Seaport- Dillingham (AR) 1959 REC Parler A
    Jealous Brothers- Armstrong (AR) 1962 REC Wolf B
    Jealous Brothers- Hays (AR) 1962 REC Wolf C
    In Zepo Town- Lisha Shelton (NC) 1963 Cohen REC
    Lonesome Valley- Tommy Doyle (AR) 1965 Parler C
    Two Jealous Brothers- Gilbert(AR) 1969 Max Hunter

I've also created an appendix for "Constant Farmer's Son" which is now 3A.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 09:40 AM

Hi,

I've started writing the US versions headnotes here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-3-the-bramble-briar.aspx

Even tho it's a bit long I'm including it below. Comments and corrections welcome:

US & Canada Versions: 3. The Bramble Briar

[The Bramble Briar, the location where the servant is "killed and thrown," is known by a number of different names in the United States[1] but ironically only two versions[2] have "Bramble Brier" or "Bramble Briar" in them. Three have "Bamboo Briar(s)"[3] and there are several other variations- two have "Branberry" and one "Bomberry." Several have "Ditch" or "Ditch of Briars"[4] while many others simply call the burial place, "The Lonesome Valley[5]."

Many titles are fashioned after the location residence of the merchant, his sons, daughter and servant. This location usually appears as Bridgewater[6] and the longest and perhaps oldest complete version it titled, "The Bridgewater Merchant[7]." In the versions that have Bridgewater the ballad begins, "Near Bridgewater" or "At Bridgewater" which is very similar to the only early extant British version[8] which begin "Near Tunbridge Waters." It's easy to conjecture that Bridgewater may in fact be a derivative of Tunbridge Waters.

Cecil Sharp titled his Appalachian versions, "In Seaport Town" as seven of the seventeen versions he collected begin with that title while other of Sharp's versions begin: "In Maple City," "In Transport Town," "In Newport Town" or "In Boston Town." Later collected versions in the Appalachians begin similarly and titles include: "In the Seaport" or "In Zepo Town[9]."

Other versions named after the murdered servant titled "The Apprentice Boy" still have Bridgewater in the opening line: 'Twas near Bridgewater a rich man lived[10]. Another group of names use the opening line: "Two Lovers Set Sparking[11]" or "One Evening as I Sat Courting." The last group of names, recently collected, are titled, "The Jealous Brothers."

The ballad has been disseminated in two main areas: 1. New York/New Jersey and 2. The Virginia Colony. This ballad didn't come with the early settlers since it's origin is estimated to be the early to mid-1700s[12] but it was likely here by the late 1700s since it was found in the early 1800s[13] in NY and reached isolated regions in the Appalachians where it was later collected[14]. The New York/New Jersey versions are the closest to the missing broadside[15] and include one print version[16] that was arranged from oral circulation[17]. One traditional version was taken to Michigan from New Jersey[18], another to Ohio and another Indiana.The westward migration could include an Iowa to California version and the version from Utah. The Virginia Colony was well established in the 1600s. By the late 1700s the ballads were brought to remote Appalachian regions like Beech Mountain, NC (Hicks/Harmon lines), Madison County, NC (Shelton line/Sodom-Laurel singers) and Flag Pond, TN. In 1775 Daniel Boone began blazing The Wilderness Trail into Kentucky and middle Tennessee paving the way for the settlement of those areas. The Bramble Briar was known in Kentucky and Tennessee as well as the earlier settled states of North Carolina and Virginia. The westward southern migration includes Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas. The southern versions, in general, are sometimes missing: 1. the inheritance awarded to the daughter when her father dies; 2. the location is Bridgewater; 3. the revenant visitation, or it has changed to a dream visitation 4. the father is a merchant; 5. the bramble briars, or the briars, instead they have been replaced by a generic location such as The Lonesome Valley.

As pointed out by Belden[19] the versions are corrupt, due inherently to the lack of existing print versions. There are certain phrase identifiers which have remained consistent in enough versions that we can understand the missing broadside or ur-ballad. These phrases include "wallowed in a gore of blood;" "she found him killed and thrown" which rhymes with "unknown;" her brothers were both "rash and cruel" and lastly "dearest bosom friend of mine." These identifiers can help sort out and give meaning to the mangled texts from oral transmission.

Although the ballad is rare and does not appear in a number of collections[20] the number of US versions totals nearly sixty[21]. The ballad tradition in the US never died out completely and although the method of recreation has changed the ballad has been sung traditionally at least until the 1970s[21].

_______________

Footnotes:

1. No versions of the ballad have yet been found in Canada.

2. The Bramble Brier- Goon (OH) pre1876 Eddy/ The Bramble Brier- (NY) Wehman's Songster 1890

3. Bamboo Briers- Hannah Ross (VA-WV) 1875 Cox A
    The Bamboo Brier- Harmon (TN-NC) pre1880 Henry
    Bamboo Briars- Minnie Doyel (MO) 1917 Barbour

4. A Ditch of Briers- Wheeler (VA) 1918 Sharp H
    The Ditch of Briars- Yorks (NC) 1940 Brown C
    Bridgewater Merchant- Stevens (NY) 1820 Thompson ("In a dry ditch")

5. This title is possibly derived from this text:
          5. They traveled over hills and mountains;
               Through lonesome valleys they did go,
    [The Bamboo Briars- Hopkins (IN) 1935 Brewster]

6. Bridgewater Merchant- Stevens (NY) 1820 Thompson
   Apprentice Boy- Lambertson (OH-MI) 1850s Gardner ('Twas near Bridgewater)
   Bamboo Briers- Hannah Ross (VA-WV) 1875 Cox A (Across Bridgewater )
   Near Bridgewater- Eliza Pace (KY) 1917 Sharp E
   The Bridgewater- Graham (CA-IO) 1938 Cowell REC

7. "The Bridgewater Merchant," from New York MS taken from a great-aunt of Douglas; dated circa 1820, part of Douglass/Stevens MS from A Pioneer Songster- Thompson, 1958.

8. "Near Turnbridge Waters" found in Chapter 18 in Tales About Christmas by Peter Parley (Samuel Griswold Goodrich) London 1838.

9. In Zepo Town" sung by Lisha Shelton of Madison County, NC; 1963.

10. "The Apprentice Boy" from Ohio/Michigan taken MS book (c. 1852) of Mrs. Elsie Clark Lambertson.

11. "Two Lovers Set Sparking" by Fred High (AR) 1951; learned much earlier. "Sparking" is another word for "Courting."

12. "The Bridgewater Merchant" by Steve Gardham; Dungheap No. 21: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/dung21.htm

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 11:33 AM

Hi,

I've started on the UK versions. I have a question:

Where is the location of the Peter Parley version?

It's in Tales About Christmas by Peter Parley (Samuel Griswold Goodrich) published in London, 1838.

https://books.google.com/books?id=UVcEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA147&dq=%22In+public+houses,+and+pot+houses+by+the+way+side,+at+times,%22&hl=

The location is not given Parley says: In public houses, and pot houses by the way side, at times, there are strange ditties to be heard. Having occasion to call on the landlord of a house of this description, I could see, through the glass door of the little parlour where I sat, a group of country people sitting with their mugs before them.

I assume since the location, given earlier in the book, is Redhill Grange, a small private housing area of just under 400 homes, located approximately a mile and a half north of the center of Wellingborough, the county of Northamptonshire.

Ty,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 02:49 PM

Hi,

I'm posting The Brake o' Briars. I'm not sure why it's attached to another song-(anyone?) so I'm just including the appropriate text. I assume both songs are sung to the same melody. (?) I have a copy of the Gillington's "Songs of the Open Road."

The Brake o' Briars- Sung by Miss Edith Sebbage, Trotton, Sussex, 1911. Noted by Miss D. J. Marshall

Then the match was made to go a-hunting,
Down in those woods where briars grew;
And there they did the young man murder;
In the Brake of Briars there him they threw.

Then they rode home the same night after,
They rode home most speedily;
"You're welcome home, my own two brothers,
But pray tell me where's your servant man?"

We lost him as we rode a-hunting,
Down in the woods where briars grow;
Where we lost him we could not find him,
And what became of him we do not know.

Then she went to bed the same night after;
She went to bed immediately,
She dreamt to see her own true loved one;
He was covered all over in great drops of blood.

She rose early the next morning,
To search the woods where briars grow;
And as she dreamed so there she found him;
In the Brake of Briars he was killed and thrown.

Then she pulled a handkerchief from her bosom,
And wiped his eyes as he lay as blind;
She oft time weeped in sorrow, saying,
"There lies a dear bosom friend of mine."

Then she rode home the same night after,
She rode home most speedily;
She poisoned herself and her own two brothers:
All four of them in one grave do lie!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 03:40 PM

Hi,

I'll post a few UK versions. This one is not online and compares favorably to the Overd version of 1904 by Sharp. This was collected by Hammond in 1907:

In Bruton Town- Sung by Mrs Baggs of Chedington, Dorset, in August, 1907 (Hammond Mss, D875).

1. In Bruton town there lives a farmer
Who had two sons and one daughter dear,
By day and night they was a-courting
To fill their parents' heart with fear.

2. "We think our servant courts our sister,
We think they has a mind to wed
We'll put an end to all their courtship,
And send [them] him silent to the grave."

3. A piece of hunting was provided,
Through woods and valleys where the briars grow;
And there they did this young man murder,
And into the pit his body throw.

4. Then these two villains returned from hunting
Not thinking what they had done,
"You're welcome home, my own true brothers,
Pray tell me, of my servant man?"

5 "We've a-left him where we've been a-hunting,
We've a-left him where he can't be seen.
To tell you plain you do offend us
You so quickly examined we."

6. Then she went to bed crying and lamenting,
Lamenting for her servant man;
She slept, she dreamed she saw him lie by her,
Covered all over in a pool of blood.

7. She woke up early, so early next morning,
And went to the brook where the briars grew;
And there she did behold her own true lover
Covered all over in a pool of blood.

8. She took her handkerchief out of her pocket
She wiped his eyes though they were blind
She kissed his tender sweet lips
'Here lies a bosom friend of mine."

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:01 PM

'It's easy to conjecture that Bridgewater may in fact be a derivative of Tunbridge Waters'???? Is this a typo, Richie? Overwhelming evidence points to the reverse.

Mrs Baggs' version should be online on the Full English website along with all the other Hammond-Gardiner, Sharp, Baring Gould etc material.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:10 PM

Just went on the Take 6/Full English website. 45 entries for Roud 18 and the first up is Mrs Baggs' version, the mss and a typed copy. If you want plenty of English versions I'd look here first, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:31 PM

Hi Steve,

TY for you help and it is overwhelming evidence that points to Bridgewater. I'll add to that. I already posted Mrs. Baggs version. Who is Jesse Cole and when did he sing this?

There Was A Farmer Lived Near Bridgewater [Bruton Town]- Sung by Jesse Cole of Oakley, Hampshire. (H. 1285)Collected by G.B. Gardiner, Charles Gamblin,

1. There was a farmer lived near Bridgewater
He had two sons and one daughter dear,
And they though fitting to plough the ocean
To plough the raging main so clear.


2. And through the woods as we was riding
And there we lost and never found
In seeking of it over fluttered [flattered],
In a brake of briar he was killed and thrown.

3. "Now a servant man's going to wed our sister,
Our sister for it is all in vain,
Yes, and their courtship shall soon be ended,
I'll send him to his silent grave."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 16 - 05:02 PM

The manuscript gives no date for Cole and he/she is not one of the singers on my list of bios for the book I'm writing. However there may be something on the Hampshire Voices website. They were recording stuff mainly from about 1904 to 1908.

I know you just posted the Baggs version, but you stated it wasn't already online and it is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:43 PM

Hi,

I guess I'll guesstimate the date and put date unknown. What I meant about the Baggs version is "it's not on google search" so it's not searchable, unless someone went to Vaughan Williams site --they couldn't find it, plus the text is not accessible unless you type it out from the MSS. So it's now something that is searchable online.

As far as Bridgewater, that is the best location, you are correct but there are more versions that are "In Seaport Town" or "In Bruton Town" or "In [ ] Town than Bridgewater. Still the possibility exists that the original broadside if it were found would be different. Certainly we should consider the oldest English version by 80 years "Near Tunbridge Waters" to hold more weight.

TY again,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:02 AM

Steve,

This is what I have so far:

    Near Tunbridge Waters- (Northants) 1838 Goodrich
    Lord Burling's Sister- Joiner(Herts)1914 Broadwood
    In Strawberry Town- Whitcombe (So) 1906 Sharp
    In Bruton Town- Overd (So) 1904 Sharp
    The Brake o' Briars- Sebbage (Sx) 1911 Gillington
    In Bruton Town- Baggs (Dor) 1907 Hammond
    There Was A Farmer- Cole (Hants) c.1908 Gardiner
    A Famous Farmer- Digweed (Hants) 1906 Hammond
    A Female Farmer- Randall (Hants) 1907 Gardiner
    Farmer's Daughter- Gardner (Oxon) 1915 Alfred Williams

Unfortunately I don't know the informants in the books you gave me in the earlier post, so please let me know what I'm missing. There's a version by an informant "Wiggs" I'm missing. I don't have the MacColl. I think Kennedy recorded Hughes singing Brakes of Briars and its on Topic not sure if it's a cover.

Other UK versions? Anyone?

Ty,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:38 AM

Hi,

I found Caroline Hughes version from "1963 and 1966 recordings made by Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger and Charles Parker . ." on Topic. This is different than teh version in Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland by Ewan Maccoll, Peggy Seeger. It has two extra lines and no missing lines- it also has a spoken version of the ballad first. I noticed that it's spelled "Bridgwater".

Apparently Kennedy recorded her later in 1968 and than version is different too.

The Bridgwater Farmer- spoken then sung by Caroline Hughes c. 1963

Spoken:

. . . near Bridgwater,
He had two sons and a daughter dear;
They feeled it fitting to plough the ocean
To plough the ocean that raged so clear.
Our servant man's going to wed my sister,
My sister she have got mind to wed.
They have soon courtship and their blood they have ... (slaughter?)
And send her to a silent grave
Well now hunting three days and three nights she lately dreamed
She dreamed, she dreamed of her own true love;
By her bedside there was tears like fountains,
Covered over with gores of blood.
She rose in the morning and come to her brothers
"Dear brothers, you're welcome home
And where's our dear servant man?
My brothers you killed him and ain't you cruel?"
She got hold of her horse, she saddled her horse;
Down through the copse as she was riding,
She heard a mournful, dreadful noise
She got off from her horse and she raised down on him
She pulled her pocket handkerchief and she wiped his eyes
With tears of salt like any bride.
My brothers have killed you and ain't they cruel?
That's just to send you to your silent grave.

Sings the tune. Then, sung:

Oh there was a farmer living near Bridgwater
Well he had two sons and one daughter dear;
Well she felt it fitting for to plough the ocean
Oh to plough the ocean, oh that raged so clear.
Surely, surely, they was deluded,
Which caused this poor farmer to live in fear.

Well, our servant man's a-going to wed my sister,
Yes, my sister she have got mind to wed.
You will soon courtship and it won't be longing
Surelye, surelye, that will drive me wild.

Well three days and three nights, oh she latelye mention,
Oh she dreamed, she dreamed of her own true love;
Oh by her bedside there was tears like fountains,
Covered over and over all by gores of blood.

She come dressed herself, she come down to her brothers,
A-crying tears like lumps of salt;
Dear brother, oh, tell, do tell me where he's?
You've killed my love, and you'll tell me too [true]

Down through the woods oh that she went a-riding,
Oh, she heard a mournfully bitter cry;
Surelye, surelye, that's my own dear true love,
In the brake of briars oh he's throwed and killed.

Oh she got off'n her horse and she looked down on him,
Wiping the tears from her eyes oh like any brine;
My brothers have killed you and ain't they cruel?
Surelye, surelye, that now would drive me mad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:52 AM

Hi,

The other Traveller version was sung by Nelson Ridley (1913-1975) who born in Kent, one of 16 children. He claimed he knew his repertoire by age 12. At the time of the 1974 recording he lived in Harlow new town in Essex, 20 miles outside of London.


There Was a Match of Hunting- sung by Nelson Ridley of Kent, Learned by 1925, recorded in 1974 at Harlow new town in Essex, 20 miles outside of London.

There was a match of hunting they was providing,
Down in the grove, that's where briars grow;
O, did ever you hear talk of the young man murdered?
In a bed of briars his body throwed.

There was a match of hunting they was patruling,
Down in the grove, that's where briars grow;
(For keeping of its secret being around two brothers)
In a bed of briars his body throwed.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 02:18 PM

Hi,

Here's another Traveller version sung in 2012 Freda Black, who is around 85 years old. You can hear her version here: http://songcollectors.org/tradition-bearers/freda-black/ see: right hand column last song.

There Were A Farmer- Sung by Freda Black, who was born a Somerset field near Chew Magna.

There were a farmer who lived near Bridgewater
who had two sons and one daughter dear
Now a servant man is going to wed their sister
Their sister she's got mind to wed.

"Now his courtin'[1] day will soon be ended
We'll take him to a silent grave."
Saw through those woods where they went riding
In the break of briars they killed and thrown

So he[2] said "You're welcome home,"
Replied the sister, 'but where is thou servant man?'
All through those woods where we went riding
We soon lost sight and were never more seen."

Three days and nights she laid a-dreaming
She dreamt her true love in the break of briars
Saw through those woods where she went riding
She heard a groan and most dreadful scream

She picks him up all in her bosom
And gave him kisses two and three
Said "My brothers killed you, now weren't they cruel
In the break of briars they killed and thrown."

1. sings "court"
2. transription has "she"

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 02:26 PM

Hi,

I read somewhere that all the UK versions that have "farmer" stemmed from a mishearing of "father." Once it was changed to "farmer" it remained "farmer."

Agree?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 02:53 PM

Hi,

After thinking about it, it seems that "farmer" could have been picked up from "Constant Farmer's Son" which not well known in the US. Why do none of the 60 versions have "farmer' in them?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 16 - 05:24 PM

I think the second explanation regarding infection from CFS is the more likely, but you can't rule out a simple change of occupation in one oral seminal version influencing the others. They all tend to be fragmentary later versions. Both oral tradition and broadside hacks changed characters' occupations at the slightest whim: Sailors become soldiers, colliers etc.

Tunbridge Wells is in Kent about 120 miles away from Bristol. I still say the evidence for Bridgwater is overwhelming.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:04 PM

Hi,

I think there may be an English version collected by Henry. (Henry collection No. 806) Anyone?

I don't know if this is printed:

It's of a farmer lived near Bridgwater- Collected R. Vaughan William 1913, no informant named. It begins:

It's of a farmer lived near Bridgwater,
He had two sons and one daughter dear,
And they thought it fitting to plough the ocean
To plough the raging main so clear.

Our servant man's going to wed our sister,
Our sister she has a man to wed,
But her courtship shall soon be ended,
I'll send him to his silent [bed]

It may be in Everyman's Book of English Country Songs (1979).

Don't have Danny Brazil version in Gwilym Davies Collection.

Don't have Daniel Wigg version "Female Farmer" 1907.

Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 05 May 16 - 11:18 AM

Hi,

I found 3 more US versions and several more I don't have.

I found the Wigg version:

A Female (Famous) Farmer- sung by Daniel Wigg, 83 years old, of Preston Candover by Abresford Hants, July 1907 noted by Charles Gamblin

1. A female farmer, as you shall hear,
There was two sons and one daughter dear
Her servant man she much admired,
None in this world she loved so dear.

2. One brother said unto the other:
"See how our sister's going to wed,"
"Their courtship shall soon be ended,"
"We'll hoist[1] him to some silent grave."

3. They asked him if would ride to hunting.
He went without fear or strife.
Then these two brothers began so cruel:
They took away this young man's life.

4. When they returned from the field of hunting,
She began to inquire for the servant man,
"Oh sister dear, we're much amaz-ed,"
To see how you examine we."

5. "We left him in the field of hunting
No more of him there could we see,"
It was near the creek[2], there was no water,
Nothing but bushes and briers grow.

6. . . .
. . . .
All for to hide their cruel slaughter
Into the bushes his body threw.

7 As Mary[2] lied all on her pillow.
She dreamt she saw her true love stand,
By her bedside, he stood lamenting,
All covered with the bloody stream. [4]

8. Then these two brothers they both were taken,
Bound down in some prison strong.
They both were tried, both found guilty,
For the same they both was hung.

_________Footnotes________

1. changed from "list" supplied from Digweed's version
2. changed from "grave" supplied from Digweed's version; the brothers probably wouldn't call it a grave since they are concealing the murder
3. Mary, from Constant Farmer's Son?
4. These stanzas are missing between 7 and 8:

    "Pray, Nancy[Mary] dear, don't you weep for me,
    Pray, Nancy[Mary] dear, don't weep nor pine,
    In that creek where there is no water,
    Go there you may my body find."

    Then she rose early the very next morning,
    With many a sigh and bitter groan.
    In that creek where her true love told her,
    There she found his body thrown.

    The blood all on his lips was drying,
    His tears were salter than any brine.
    Then she kissed him and then she cried:
    "Here lies a bosom friend of mine."

    Three nights and days she stayed lamenting
    Till her poor heart was filled with woe.
      Until sharp hunger came creeping on her,
    Then homeward she was forced to go.

    "Sister, we are so much amaz-ed
    To see you look so pale and wan."
    "Brothers, I know you knows the reason,
    And for the same you shall be hung."

Additional stanzas from A Famous Farmer sung by George Digweed.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:57 PM

'As Mary lied all on her pillow'. Yes, definitely picked up from CFS.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:13 PM

The Vaughan Williams collected version is in Palmer, Everyman's Book of English country Songs, No 59 p111. 'It's of a Farmer'

2 But their courtship......
I send him to his silent bed.

V3 onwards
One hunting day it was appointed,
To take this young man's life away;
They did this young man overflatter
To hunting unto go with them.

And through the woods as they were riding,
They saw a brake of briars grow;
They soon became and his blood they slaughtered,
And a brake of briars pulled him through.

'O welcome home,' then said the sister,
'But where is our young servantman?
I only ask because you whispered,
Dear brothers tell me if you can.

'Now through the woods as we was riding,
There we lost him and never him found;
But I tell you we are affronted,
You do hard and examine we.

Three days and nights she lay lamenting,
she dreamed, she dreamed her love she saw,
By her bedside the tears lamenting,
All over and over with gore.

'Lay still, lay still, my patient jewel,
It's all in vain for to complain;
Her brothers killed me, now weren't they cruel,
In such a place that you may find.

Then through the woods as she was riding
She heard such fearful dismal groans;
'Surely that is my own true love
In a brake opf briars killed and thrown.'

She kissed his lips that were all dry-ed,
His tears as salt as any brine;
She kissed his lips and ofttimes sighed:
'O here lays a bold young friend of mine.

Notes in plamer p245
Sung by an unnamed singer, Poolend, Ashperton, Hertfordshire; coll by RVW, Sept 1913 (MS 8vo E5)

I'm surprised this is not on the Full English website at least in MS form. It should be.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:15 PM

Whilst in places it is garbled it does contain some lines very close to the conjectured original.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:17 PM

Sam Henry's 806 is CFS.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:20 PM

I'll get Tradsinger to post Danny Brazil's version. I don't seem to have it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:10 PM

TYVM Steve,

R. Vaughan Williams MS was difficult to read, managed to decipher a bit of it. I noticed he had several he had several places with question marks, where he was unsure of what the singer sang. Need to check those places against the published version.

There are two West Virginia versions in Volume 3 of Michael E. Bush's short volumes. I went ahead and ordered all 5 since the last three are out of print and scarce (individual volumes 3,4,5 are not sold).

The few US versions I don't have I may be able to get from various libraries- which has been working of late.

Now if we can just find the missing English broadside :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:38 PM

Hi,

I found the quote by Lucy Broadwood but it was made in 1905 in the JFSS attached to Overd's 'Bruton Town':

"The word 'farmer' in the first verse printed above should no doubt be 'father,' he being thus mentioned in Sachs's poem."

Richie :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 16 - 12:25 AM

By the way, according to Google books, Belden's H M Belden's "Boccaccio, Hans Sachs, and The Bramble Briar" was first published in 1914 in Folk-song: England and America. (German publication) Edited by Archer Taylor(?)

Here's the link: https://books.google.com/books?id=698gAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Miss+Lucy+Broadwood+published+a+Hertfordshire+version,+Lord+Burling%27s+Sist

I wrote this about the location in footnote:

6. Bridgewater or more accurately "Bridgwater" likely refers to a market town located in Somerset, England. Although Bridgewater (Bridgwater) is the best choice for the location, it is not in the majority. There are nearly twice as many US versions titled "In Seaport Town" or similarly and almost as many US versions titled "Bramble Briar" or similarly. Bridgewater (Bridgwater) also appears in a number of English versions and I concur with Gardham that until the missing broadside is discovered it is my first choice for a location.

The unfinished article is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-3-the-bramble-briar.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 16 - 01:21 AM

Hi,

Mrs York's version from NC is in the James Carpenter Collection, the good news is now I can get the entire ballad, the bad news is they can't seem to put the versions on-line where they can be used. I'm waiting---!!!

I'm sorry Julia, but I don't get it. 5 years ago I thought the collection would be put online- where is it???!!!

I can't do the UK version of the Child ballads until this is done. So I sent an email to them volunteering to help them- anything to get teh moss off the stone,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:34 PM

Richie,
I too have been waiting with anticipation, but it is a massive collection and they are a pretty meticulous bunch. I would imagine there might also be problems with the flow of funding. All of the people working on this are relying on it for some of their income, not retired like me. Patience, my friend. I'm not sure who is currently working on the texts but an email to David might turn up what you want.

The missing broadside/chapbook is right at the very top of my wants list. The people I know who live close enough to Bristol are all very busy with their own important projects.

As soon as I get time a useful study would be which elements of the story have survived in English versions, or perhaps rather which elements haven't survived.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 16 - 08:13 PM

Ty Steve,

12,000 items, I'll do it just to help. i just can't imagine it taking that long, maybe because I work hard and fast and if it's sloppy that can always be corrected easily.

I found the Lemmy Brazil version from 1967 I'll post it here:

The Brake of Briars- From the singing of Lemmy Brazil, Gloucester 28 December 1966 and Danny Brazil, Gloucester on 5 January 1967. (Springthyme 66.9.3 & 67.1.33 ).

All for a farmer he lived - - - -,
He had two sons and one daughter dear;
Both day and night they were contriving,
To fill her heart with a good care.

This farmer also had a servant,
His only daughter that servant loved well;
By day and night he did salute her,
And to wed with her was his intent.

When the youngest brother saw his sister,
Walking out with the servant man;
Instead of keeping his secrets and telling no other,
Until his brother he told the same.

When the brother came to hear it,
- - - -
- - - -
- - - -

A match of hunting they provided,
They provided on the very same day;
There they did this young man murder,
In a brake of briars his fair body lay.

When her two brothers came home from haunting,
It was so dark that they could not see;
She said, "Welcome home my two own brothers,
And what's become of my servant man?"

"We left him behind where we've been a-hunting,
It was so dark that we could not see;
To tell you truly and not to defend you,
We have so strictly examined he."

She lay in the bed all that night lamenting,
And there she had a shocking dream;
She dreamt she saw him in a brake of briars,
All covered over with drops of blood.
He said, "You lay still my dearest jewel,
It is too late for to weep for me."

He said, "You rise early tomorrow morning,
And search the woods where the briars grow;
And in the valley you'll find my body,
All covered over with drops of blood."

She rose early the next day morning,
She rose up by the break of day;
And there she found her young man murdered,
In a brake of briars his fair body lay.

She pulled a pocket handkerchief from her pocket,
Wiping his eyes 'cos they were blind;
She was kissing his sweet cheeks oft times saying,
"There lays a bosom young friend of mine."

A dinner then the girls provided,
She provided on the very same day;
She poisoned herself and her two own brothers,
And the four of them in one grave lay.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 16 - 08:17 PM

Hi,

I wrote a 2 page intro to the English versions on my site rather than post it you can read it here. It's not finished but close to it:

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-3-bramble-briar.aspx

Comments and corrections are welcome as always,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 16 - 10:47 PM

Hi,

These are the English versions I have so far (in approximate chronological order):

    Near Tunbridge Waters- (Northants) 1838 Goodrich
    In Bruton Town- Overd (So) 1904 Sharp
    In Strawberry Town- Whitcombe (So) 1906 Sharp
    A Famous Farmer- Digweed (Hants) 1906 Hammond
    In Bruton Town- Baggs (Dor) 1907 Hammond
    A Female Farmer- Randall (Hants) 1907 Gardiner
    A Female Farmer- Daniel Wigg(Hants)1907 Gardiner
    There Was A Farmer- Cole (Hants) c.1908 Gardiner
    The Brake o' Briars- Sebbage (Sx) 1911 Gillington
    It's of a Farmer-- (Herts) 1913 R. V. Williams
    Lord Burling's Sister- Joiner(Herts)1914 Broadwood
    Farmer's Daughter- Gardner (Oxon) 1915 Williams
    A Match of Hunting- Ridley (Kent) c.1925 MacColl
    It's of a Rich and a Gay Old Farmer- Henry (Hants) 1938 Bonham-Carter
    Bridgwater Farmer- Hughes (Dorset) c.1962 MacColl
    The Brake of Briars- Lemmy Brazil (Glos) 1967 REC
    There Were a Farmer- Freda Black (So) 2012 REC

Am I missing any?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 16 - 04:32 PM

I have a version collected in 1938 which was published in English Dance and Song, from Henry Mitchell, Hants. I'll scan it and send you it when I've checked all the others.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 16 - 04:35 PM

You will then have all the English versions I have, but please do check Roud for any I haven't seen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:24 PM

A quick analysis of the English versions.

They preserve remnants of 17 of the 23 reconstructed stanzas. The best preserved version is that of Mrs Joiner which preserves 6 full stanzas close to the reconstruction despite losing 4 stanzas at the beginning. The best preserved stanza is the 16th of the reconstruction which is the description of his body and her kissing him. In general the English versions mainly preserve the middle block of stanzas 10 to 17 from the brothers' return to her lamenting over the body. Those English versions that have an ending telling of the brothers' punishment tell of them being tried and hung and there is no mention of them being drowned at sea in a storm. The English versions generally have their own autonomy and if pushed I'd say there was probably a shorter printed version following the original with a few alterations such as condensing the opening and changing the ending.

The next step is to compare the English shorter version with what is contained in CFS.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/Merch. Daught.
From: Richie
Date: 07 May 16 - 08:50 PM

Hi Steve,

I have the 1938 version which was published in English Dance and Song, from Henry Mitchell, Hants. However, I didn't add the last name in my title (see above)- which I've fixed.

I have checked Roud.

Thanks for your analysis,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 16 - 12:08 PM

Hi,

I've completed the preliminary headnotes (6 or 7 pages with 22 footnotes) for the "English version" and have 17 traditional version which may be close to the extant number. It can be viewed here:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-3-bramble-briar.aspx At the end I pose these questions. Anyone?

A number of questions remain about the ballad in British Isles and specifically England since the ballad has not be traced to Scotland or Ireland. If the ballad was created by a stall printer based on a translation of Boccaccio's "Isabella and the Pot of Basil" why has not print version surfaced? Why then is the end of Boccaccio's story not found in the ballad? Or is Boccacio's work just an Italian analogue of an older archetype? Except for the the fragment captured by Parley in the early 1800s, why has there been no other trace of the ballad in England until 1904? Why are some of the early American versions longer and fuller than the English ones?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 16 - 12:12 PM

Hi,

Gerald Porter has done a study of the ballad: SINGING THE CHANGES: VARIATION IN FOUR TRADITIONAL BALLADS, 1991. It was reviewed by Riewerts. Does anyone have a copy of that book or a way to access it online?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 16 - 12:18 PM

Hi,

I'm interested in symbolism of the "bramble briar" or just "briars" in conjunction with the story line. I've finished the beginning of main page headnotes. I've selected 27 traditional versions (A-W) out of the about 80 versions in America and England that have been collected. It's short so I'll post it here. Comments or suggestions welcomed.

Narrative: 3. The Bramble Briar

As a word, "Bramble Briar" is redundant. A bramble is a wild prickly bush and in England it usually refers to a blackberry bush. A briar (also brier) is a thorny plant that forms thickets. In this ballad the bramble briar is the place where the brothers throw the corpse of their sister's lover, who was their servant or apprentice boy. The location of the murder and the site of his body's disposal has also been sung as "a brake of briars" or "a ditch of briars[1]." In A Midsummer Night's Dream, (The Merchant Of Venice, Volume 5) Shakespeare writes, "Enter into that brake," which Kennett (MS. Lansd. 1033), defines as, "a small plat or parcel of bushes growing by themselves.[2]" It's called "A grounde full of bushes and brambles; a brake of briers; a thicket of thornes," in the Nomenclator, 1585[3].

The briar, well known in ballad lore from the "rose and briar" ending[4] where it grows on the man's grave, in this ballad represents the painful separation, revenge and death within this family[5] and painful death of the daughter's lover. The pain of the thorn and briar as a symbol is evident, for example, in the crucifixion of Christ. Porter[6], for example, refers the 'the bramble briar' as the "central symbol of the song." Even though the exact words, bramble briar, are missing in most versions of the ballad or distorted into "greenberry[7]" and the like, "The Bramble Briar" is the most powerful and symbolic title and far more revealing of the plot than "The Merchant's Daughter[7]."

The ballad story has been told as early as 1353 in "Isabella and the Pot of Basil" which is Philomena's story in the fourth day of The Decameron, a collection of short stories by Italian writer Giovanni Boccaccio (1313–1375)[8]. German poet Hans Sachs used the theme as the subject of his first narrative poem in 1515 and returned to it three more times over the course of the next thirty years and in 1818 John Keats wrote a narrative poem based on Boccaccio's story[9]. In 1905 Broadwood pointed out the similarity of the ballad story with Boccaccio's:

"This, apart from its fine tune, is a ballad of great interest, for we have here a doggerel version of the story, " Isabella and the Pot of Basil," that, though made famous by Boccaccio, was probably one of those old folk-tales, popular long before his time (1313-1373), of which he loved to make use. Hans Sachs (1494-1576) has put Boccaccio's story into verse, and his translation has much of the directness and homeliness which we find in this Somersetshire version. Both contrast curiously with Keats's flowery and artificial transcription, and certainly suggest better than his a primitive story of the people."[10]

Richie [footnotes not included]

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 16 - 01:51 PM

First of all, Richie, this reading symbolism into everything was discarded a long time ago by folklorists and anyone who follows that line nowadays without solid evidence is seen as a crank. A brake of brambles is just a good place to hide a body quickly without it being discovered. No-one is likely to enter the thicket without a machete.

As I've said many times, many of these flimsy pieces of print have not survived. We know that for definite because of printers' catalogues which have survived. The Bristol Tragedy (one of many of that name) is sufficiently close in wording to suggest that they were both produced by the same pen about the same time. There is also a strong possibility a later shortened version was in print that gave rise to the English versions, that has also not survived.

If you read my article on Mustrad you'll see my explanation for why the head in the pot motif was not included. It was simply too far-fetched for a mid 18thc audience. Ghostly visitations, fine, but severed heads in plant pots, 13thc maybe.

There are no other traces of the ballad between 1838 and the 1890s because very few people were collecting ballads in S England during that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:22 PM

Comparing 'Bramble Briar' with 'Constant Farmer's Son' there is little one can say conclusively. There are about 4-5 points of detail worth comparing other than the common plot and it's anybody's guess whether the writer of CFS took the inspiration from the original, from a later broadside or from an oral version of BB. All of the more detailed similarities are found in English oral versions. It is even possible, likely in a few cases, that CFS influenced some oral versions of BB, one noted above.

A summary of the similarities:
CFS Mary is in love with a farmer's son. In oral versions of BB her father is a farmer (a tenuous link at best)

In CFS Mary dreams about the death of her lover which is the case in some oral versions (instead of the ghostly visit)

CFS, like BB, mentions salt tears, gore, and her kissing the corpse.

In BB she hangs around his body 3 days and 3 nights. In CFS it's one day and one night. and when she has to leave, in both it's because 'hunger came creeping'.

What we do know about CFS is that it was written by George Brown about whom we know nothing other than he was one of the very few in the early 19thc who was allowed to append his name, like John Morgan' to the ballads he supplied. We also know the designated tune was 'Young Edwin in the Lowlands' on broadsides. Not only is it set in London but must have been first printed there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:11 PM

TY Steve,

Not trying to get too far out from the shore. I prefer facts. Gerald Porter apparently tried to reconstruct the ballad but I doubt he did it as well as you've done. Still, I'd like to see it.

Didn't know CFS was written by George Brown. It's good to know because I've listed CFS as an Appendix to Bramble.

The two early broadside I found are:

a. "The Merchant's Daughter and Constant Farmer's Son." Pitts broadside dated 1819-1844 with the imprint: "Pitts Printer and Toy Warehouse 6 Great St Andrew Street Seven Dials."
b. "Merchant's Daughter, or Constant Farmer's Son." Broadside printed by Taylor, 16, Waterloo Road, near the Victoria Theatre, London c. 1830-1840 (imprint features a woodcut with three squares; the first is a drum, a bird of prey and a horse)

Is Brown's name attached to these broadsides? What date do you surmise? I put a date of circa 1830.

So if Brown wrote it based on Bramble then it's probable that his print shop had access to a copy of Bramble. Or he knew it from tradition.

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:19 PM

Richie, I believe I can have Porter's book in a couple of weeks through my library.

Will be happy to order it and report back.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:28 PM

Ok ty Lighter, PM or remail me too,

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Bramble Briar/Bruton Town/MerchantDaughtr
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:22 PM

Jon,
Don't bother. I've got it. I'll scan it and send it to Richie.