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Help: History of Children's Folk Songs
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Help: History of Children's Folk Songs |
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Subject: History of Children's Folk Songs From: M-- Date: 07 Dec 99 - 09:08 PM I am looking for historical and social background on a few children's folk songs for my music education class. The songs that I have to choose from include Polly Put the Kettle On, Mary Wore Her Red Dress, No one in the House but Dinah, Golden Ring Around the Susan Girl, Old Brass Wagon, Tideo, All Through the Night, Thanks for the Food, Alouette, Betty Martin, Miss Mary Mack, Music Alone Shall Live, The Colorado Trail, Pourquoi, Happiness Runs. I have found some information on The Colorado Trail, Music Alone Shall Live (a German round called Himmel und Erde), and Tideo. Any information would be greatly appreciated! It's been really difficult to find the background on these songs. Any different versions of lyrics or stories behind the characters or songs can be included in my paper. Thanks everyone for your help! I'll post all of my information after I gather it if you're interested. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 07 Dec 99 - 09:48 PM I found "All Through the Night" here This is Lesley Nelson's site. Just go to the search engine at this site and enter each individual song. There probably aren't many children's songs here...sorry. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Lotusland Date: 07 Dec 99 - 09:52 PM All through the Night is Welsh. The DC area group Iona has recorded it in Welsh and English. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 07 Dec 99 - 10:29 PM Most childrens' songs didn't start out as childrens' songs, e.g.: "Polly/Molly put the kettle on" appeared shortly before its tune appeared as "Jenny's Bawbie", in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #496, 1797. A late copy "Polly put the kettle one" is on the Bodley Ballads website, Search/Shelfmark Harding B 11(4332) Somewhere I've seen an old copy of "Hey Betty Martin, tiptoe fine", but can't recall where. It's not "My Eye and Betty Martin" in 'The Universal Songster', I, p. 360, 1825.
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Subject: Tune Add: JENNY'S BAWBIE From: Bruce O. Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:12 AM Wm. Chappel (Popular Music of the Olden Time, II, p. 795) contended that "Polly put the kettle on" was popularized in England in 1794, before the tune appeared as "Jenny's Bawbie" in 'Scots Musical Musical Museum, #496', 1797. "Jenny' Bawbie" without music is in Herd's 'Scots Songs', II, 204, 1776. John Glen, 'Early Scottish Melodies', 1900, tried to refute Chappell without any real evidence. Neither were aware of the following copy of the tune:
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:57 PM The Opies in 'The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' give "Polly put the kettle one", with references, and cite an earlier copy of the tune, 1778, "Jenny's Bawbie". |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: M-- Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:31 PM Thanks for your help everyone. This paper has been very difficult considering the shortage of resources in our libraries. Thanks so much! If you come up with anything else, keep posting!!! :) |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:59 PM I've put "Jenny's Bawbie" (with tune) in Scarce Songs 2 on my website. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Murray on Saltspring Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:37 PM "Alouette" is a Canadian version of an old French (of France) folksong--I can give you references if you like--which was taken over here by the early voyageurs and transmogrified a wee bit. It's become a "typically Canadian" song, and has been exported back to France, wher one can hear it sung with gusto in cafes (mostly for the anglais visitors, bien entendu!), as I heard it in 1959. Do you want notes on the French versions?? |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:41 PM Sorry, I misread John Glen's note in 'Early Scottish Melodies' on the tune. He mis-cites the tune as in Aird's Airs, III, 1788, but does note that it is in Campbell's 'Reels', 1778. [He had earlier published the tune in 'The Glen Collection of Scottish Dance Music'.] |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:55 PM Don't let this subject die, M---. I'm sure there's all sorts of stuff we can help on, but you might get more if you give specific questions instead of a long list. Don't have time now, but I'll post some stuff later. Be sure to explore Lesley's site that was cited above (click), and also Bruce Olson's site, http://www.erols.com/olsonw/ (click). Another great resource is the Traditional Ballad Index (click). You can also check our links (click) page for all sorts of good resources. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 08 Dec 99 - 04:26 PM Don't forget all the Scottish ones contributed by Murray on Saltspring in DT, search on 'MS'. Through some book-keeping error some of them got put under my initials, 'WBO'. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: M-- Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:22 PM Hey everyone. I am going to focus in one Polly Put the Kettle On, All Through the Night, Alouette, and if I can get any more information, I would like to include the German round Himmel und Erde or Music Alone Shall Live. Thanks for all your help and the links to the websites. Those will come in handy in the future as well. Thanks! Murray, could you give me references and words for Alouette? |
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Subject: Lyr Add: ALOUETTE From: Murray on Saltspring Date: 10 Dec 99 - 01:28 AM ALOUETTE Alouette, gentille alouette, Alouette, je t'y plumerai. [bis] Je t'y plumerai la tete, je t'y plumerai la tete. Et la tete, et la tete [rep. as necessary] Alouette, alouette, Oh— [Sorry I can't manage accents on this thing] Succeeding verses substitute for "tete" various other parts of the bird: le bec, le nez, les yeux, le cou, leas ailes, le dos, les pattes, la queue; and in the repeat bar all of these are enumerated in reverse order, the music being repeated ad libitum. [The "e"s at the ends of words are mostly omitted when sung.] The song belongs to the class of "Enumeartive Songs", a British example being "The Tree Down in the Valley O" (or "Rattling Bog" etc.). It appears in print quite late: in Canada, in 1879, and in France, 14 years later, published by Julien Tersot (Revue des traditions populaires VIII, p. 586). A rather similar song is "La Randonne du Merle" (begins "Mon mere a perdu son bec"), which is in several collections (cf. William Parker Greenough, Canadian Folk-Life and Folk-Lore, N.Y., 1897, p. 144, and two versions, including another tune, collected by E.-Ez. Massicotte, in Marius Barbeau's article "Chants populaires du Canada" in Journal of American Folklore XXXII, 1919, pp. 71-2). Here the blackbird loses its head, beak, eyes, neck, etc., exactly like the lark, but the reason is not stated. This song is found (to the tune of "Bonhomme, bonhomme!") as "Le merle n'a perdut le bec" in Achille Montel and Louis Lambert, Chants populaires du Languedoc (Paris, 1880), p. 458, along with several variants (cock, ass, etc.), in a complete section of enumerative songs. another of which is a version (without tune, unfortunately) of our "Alouette", called "L'Alauseto plumado": 1) Ai plumat lou cap de l'alauseto. — La ploumaren, l'alauseto; La ploumaren, l'alauseto, tout de long. 2) Ai ploumat lou cap, las alos, de l'alauseto. — La ploumaren, etc. A French translation shows the high degree of similarity: "J'ai plume la tete de l'alouette. - Nous la plumerons, l'alouette; nous la plumerons, l'alouette, tout au long. 2) J'ai plume la tete, les ailes" - etc. At each repetition, another part is added: lou fafat, la cresto, las cambos, etc. The Tiersot version noted above is actually much closer to the Provence one quoted than the Canadian, and may represent a midway type. The 1879 printing mentioned is in "A Pocket Song Book for the Use of the Students and Graduates of McGill College" (in Montreal); and in 1885 in "The McGill College Song Book", called "an old French-Canadian song". Hope this works. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Bruce O. Date: 10 Dec 99 - 01:55 AM I had overlooked the fact that Murray contributed "Jenny's Bawbee" to DT, with notes. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Murray on SS Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:24 AM As for "Polly Put the Kettle On", Fuld (Book of World-Famous Music) quotes Chappell re the Dale printing of 1794, adding "but no publication by Dale has been located before ca. 1809-1810 under the title Molly Put the Kettle On or Jenny's Baubie. Jenny's Baubee or Jenny [NB] put the Kettle On was published by McDonnell, Dublin, ca. 1790-1810, and Molly Put the Kettle On was published by Paff, New York City, 1803-7." Also, he notes that the melody is used for the game song "Did you ever see a lassie?", whose first known printing is in Bancroft, Games for the Playground (N.Y., 1909). We can pursue Augustin and co. if you like. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Sian Date: 10 Dec 99 - 06:17 AM Here's the entry (in translation) on Ar Hyd y Nos (All Through the Night) from "Canu'r Bobl" by Huw Williams (the authority on this stuff): ****** First published by Bardd y Brenin (the King's Bard, ie. Edward Jones) in Musical Relicks of the Welsh Bards (London 1784) under its present name, and the following year (1785) a tune very similar to it ... in the opera *Liberty Hall, or the Test of the Goodfellowship* (London 1785) by Charles Dibdin. Bardd Alaw (Bard of the Tune, ie. John Parry) in The Cambro-Briton (January 1820) that it was the most famous Welsh tune in England in the early years of the previous century, becoming quite popular due to the words set to it ('Here beneath a willow sleepeth poor Mary Anne') by Mrs. Opie (words sufficiently 'pathetic' as he put it). The Welsh words most commonly connected with the tune are "Holl amrantau'r ser ddywedant' by Ceiriog published in 'Songs of Wales' (Brinley Richards; London 1873). 'Jydsk Vise' was the name of a Jutland folk song very like it sung at the beginning of this century. ***** Hope that helps? Sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: John in Brisbane Date: 09 Feb 00 - 09:26 PM Prompted by the newer thread, Songs Of The North Vol II notes that the tune to Jennie's Bawbee as an "Old Scottish dancing air". No further information is givem, but I will post the lyrics here ASAP because they are somewhat more expanded than the DT version. I haven't checked Bruce O's site. Regards, John |
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Subject: Lyr Add: JENNIE'S BAWBEE^^ From: John in Brisbane Date: 09 Feb 00 - 09:53 PM JENNIE'S BAWBEE
I met four chaps yon birks amang, |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Feb 00 - 11:05 AM A bawbee was a very small Scots coin. I've been told that it was customary for a girl to keep a bawbee in her underclothing. If she allowed a boy to get that far, to get the bawbee, he was in effect getting her. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Crowhugger Date: 13 Feb 00 - 01:23 AM Spotted this in "Links:" http://www.german-usa.com/gedichte/index.html described as includings poems and fairy tales. Worth a look? Alouette tells a grim *grin* story. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM "Brass Wagon" was one of the songs sung by pioneers who first settled in Osbourn County, Kansas in the late 1840's. One settler's family was headed by John Isa. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: GUEST,Mike B. Date: 20 Mar 07 - 05:15 PM Until a few years ago, I actually thought the term 'Child Ballads' referred to story songs written for children. |
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Subject: RE: Help: History of Children's Folk Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Mar 07 - 06:41 PM This old thread has little to do with children's songs. One of the better books on the subject is Iona and Peter Opie, 1985, "The Singing Game," Oxford Uniiversity Press. |
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