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BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 03:49 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM
Les in Chorlton 29 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 09:28 AM
bobad 29 Apr 16 - 10:40 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM
bobad 29 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 08:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM
akenaton 30 Apr 16 - 01:35 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 02:04 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM
DMcG 30 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM
SPB-Cooperator 01 May 16 - 04:24 AM
SPB-Cooperator 01 May 16 - 04:33 AM
Les in Chorlton 01 May 16 - 04:45 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 05:26 AM
akenaton 01 May 16 - 06:05 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 06:14 AM
akenaton 01 May 16 - 06:16 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 06:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 May 16 - 12:47 PM
bobad 01 May 16 - 07:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 May 16 - 07:26 PM
akenaton 02 May 16 - 03:00 AM
Acorn4 02 May 16 - 03:54 AM
bobad 02 May 16 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 09:23 AM
bobad 02 May 16 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 11:42 AM
bobad 02 May 16 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 02:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 03:26 PM
bobad 02 May 16 - 06:41 PM
bobad 02 May 16 - 07:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 03:22 AM
Backwoodsman 03 May 16 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 04:28 AM
Richard Bridge 03 May 16 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 06:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 12:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 May 16 - 12:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 02:16 PM
MGM·Lion 03 May 16 - 05:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 12:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 May 16 - 12:51 PM
bobad 04 May 16 - 01:55 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 May 16 - 03:03 PM
bobad 04 May 16 - 03:24 PM
bobad 04 May 16 - 03:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 May 16 - 04:18 PM
bobad 04 May 16 - 04:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 May 16 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 04 May 16 - 09:36 PM
bobad 04 May 16 - 09:49 PM
Steve Shaw 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 12:04 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 12:09 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 12:10 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 12:17 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 12:22 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 04:15 AM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 04:48 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 05:15 AM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 06:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 May 16 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 07:12 AM
bobad 05 May 16 - 08:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 May 16 - 08:55 AM
bobad 05 May 16 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 10:22 AM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 02:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 02:28 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 02:38 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 02:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 03:01 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 03:14 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 04:06 PM
bobad 05 May 16 - 04:37 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 16 - 05:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 05:27 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 16 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 07:27 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 16 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 09:44 AM
bobad 06 May 16 - 03:35 PM
bobad 06 May 16 - 03:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 May 16 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 16 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 16 - 06:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 May 16 - 07:07 PM
bobad 06 May 16 - 07:31 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 16 - 07:43 PM
DMcG 07 May 16 - 02:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 May 16 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 16 - 01:12 PM
bobad 07 May 16 - 01:46 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 02:27 PM
Paul Burke 07 May 16 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 07:37 PM
Richard Bridge 07 May 16 - 07:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 02:59 AM
Paul Burke 08 May 16 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 04:02 AM
MGM·Lion 08 May 16 - 04:12 AM
SPB-Cooperator 08 May 16 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 05:04 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 16 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 16 - 05:47 AM
DMcG 08 May 16 - 08:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 08:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 08:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 08:21 AM
MGM·Lion 08 May 16 - 10:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 01:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 02:01 PM
Paul Burke 08 May 16 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 16 - 07:40 PM
bobad 08 May 16 - 10:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 01:44 AM
Paul Burke 09 May 16 - 04:05 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 04:20 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 08:04 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 08:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 10:07 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 10:31 AM
Backwoodsman 09 May 16 - 10:52 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 10:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 10:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 11:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 11:49 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 11:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 12:06 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 12:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 01:01 PM
bobad 09 May 16 - 01:36 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 01:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 02:14 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 02:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 03:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 03:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 03:46 PM
bobad 09 May 16 - 05:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 16 - 05:49 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 16 - 06:51 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 01:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 03:13 AM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 08:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 16 - 08:35 AM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 08:39 AM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 08:46 AM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 08:48 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 10:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 16 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 10:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 16 - 11:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 16 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 11:53 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 12:17 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 12:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 16 - 01:15 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 02:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 02:46 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 06:38 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 16 - 07:00 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 07:41 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 16 - 09:38 PM
MGM·Lion 11 May 16 - 12:32 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 04:56 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 09:38 AM
bobad 11 May 16 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 10:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 May 16 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 11:39 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 02:53 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 03:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 16 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 16 - 05:11 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 16 - 06:33 AM
bobad 12 May 16 - 08:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 16 - 08:29 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 16 - 09:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 04:29 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 16 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 05:17 AM
bobad 13 May 16 - 06:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM
bobad 13 May 16 - 07:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 07:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 07:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 07:40 AM
bobad 13 May 16 - 07:42 AM
bobad 13 May 16 - 07:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 07:59 AM
bobad 13 May 16 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 08:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 16 - 01:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 01:23 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 16 - 01:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 16 - 02:05 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 16 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 06:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 16 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 12:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 16 - 01:09 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 01:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 01:58 PM
bobad 14 May 16 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 02:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 16 - 02:26 PM
bobad 14 May 16 - 03:31 PM
bobad 14 May 16 - 03:52 PM
bobad 14 May 16 - 04:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 16 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 05:34 PM
bobad 14 May 16 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 07:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 16 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 16 - 07:25 PM
Richard Bridge 15 May 16 - 04:28 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 04:59 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 05:31 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 05:56 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 06:57 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 07:47 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 07:54 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 08:09 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 08:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 16 - 08:32 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 08:39 PM
bobad 15 May 16 - 09:14 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 16 - 09:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 05:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 05:33 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 06:17 AM
bobad 16 May 16 - 07:33 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 08:06 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 08:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM
bobad 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 16 - 08:45 AM
bobad 16 May 16 - 09:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 16 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 16 - 08:27 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 16 - 09:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 16 - 04:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 16 - 09:11 AM
akenaton 17 May 16 - 09:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 16 - 10:32 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 16 - 11:16 AM
akenaton 17 May 16 - 01:02 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 16 - 03:10 PM
bobad 18 May 16 - 09:02 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 16 - 10:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 16 - 10:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 16 - 10:51 AM
bobad 18 May 16 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 16 - 01:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 16 - 02:08 PM
bobad 18 May 16 - 03:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 16 - 03:30 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 16 - 05:38 PM
bobad 18 May 16 - 08:04 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 16 - 09:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 16 - 06:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 07:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 07:14 AM
bobad 19 May 16 - 08:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 09:18 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 16 - 09:51 AM
bobad 19 May 16 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 10:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 10:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM
bobad 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 11:25 AM
Jeri 19 May 16 - 11:43 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 16 - 11:45 AM
bobad 19 May 16 - 12:28 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 16 - 12:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 01:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 01:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 16 - 01:32 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 16 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 04:19 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 04:36 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 09:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 May 16 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 10:16 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 10:18 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 10:33 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 16 - 10:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 May 16 - 11:16 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 20 May 16 - 04:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 16 - 04:29 AM
bobad 21 May 16 - 08:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 May 16 - 09:10 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 16 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 16 - 09:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 May 16 - 10:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 16 - 10:45 AM
bobad 21 May 16 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 16 - 11:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 May 16 - 11:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 16 - 11:44 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 16 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 21 May 16 - 10:09 PM
Steve Shaw 21 May 16 - 10:12 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 16 - 04:20 AM
Steve Shaw 22 May 16 - 06:17 AM
Steve Shaw 22 May 16 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 16 - 11:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 May 16 - 11:37 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 16 - 11:49 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 16 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 16 - 03:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 03:36 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 07:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 08:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 08:46 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 09:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 09:23 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 09:28 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 09:29 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 09:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 11:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 11:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 11:38 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 11:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 01:46 PM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 02:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 06:25 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 07:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 May 16 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 16 - 03:37 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 04:29 AM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 04:41 AM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 04:46 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 05:59 AM
bobad 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 07:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 16 - 07:39 AM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 08:32 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 08:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 16 - 08:50 AM
Backwoodsman 26 May 16 - 09:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 16 - 09:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 16 - 02:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 03:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 04:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 16 - 11:38 AM
Steve Shaw 27 May 16 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 16 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 16 - 03:07 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 16 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 05:44 AM
Raggytash 28 May 16 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 06:08 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 10:12 AM
Raggytash 28 May 16 - 10:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 11:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 12:10 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 12:31 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 07:13 AM
bobad 29 May 16 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 16 - 08:27 AM
bobad 29 May 16 - 08:40 AM
bobad 29 May 16 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 09:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 May 16 - 09:40 AM
bobad 29 May 16 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 04:54 PM
bobad 29 May 16 - 06:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 May 16 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 07:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 May 16 - 07:23 PM
DMcG 30 May 16 - 02:43 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 06:44 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 06:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 09:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 09:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 10:02 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 01:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 01:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 02:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 02:19 PM
bobad 30 May 16 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 02:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 02:56 PM
bobad 30 May 16 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 05:56 PM
bobad 30 May 16 - 06:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 07:00 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 16 - 07:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 07:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 16 - 04:37 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 16 - 06:24 AM
bobad 31 May 16 - 08:34 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 16 - 09:13 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 10:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 16 - 12:39 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 01:12 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 03:12 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 03:30 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 04:49 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 05:14 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 05:25 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 06:42 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 07:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 08:10 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 16 - 08:12 PM
bobad 31 May 16 - 08:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 08:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 08:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 16 - 09:43 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 16 - 07:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM
bobad 01 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 11:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 16 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 03:33 PM
bobad 02 Jun 16 - 04:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 16 - 06:01 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 16 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 16 - 06:12 AM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM
Allan Conn 03 Jun 16 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 16 - 10:52 AM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 11:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 06:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 16 - 08:07 PM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 08:14 PM
bobad 03 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 16 - 08:36 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 06:27 AM
bobad 04 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 07:22 AM
bobad 04 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 08:35 AM
bobad 04 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 09:11 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 16 - 09:12 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jun 16 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jun 16 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jun 16 - 02:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 16 - 04:01 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 16 - 04:04 PM
Greg F. 04 Jun 16 - 05:42 PM
bobad 04 Jun 16 - 06:50 PM
Greg F. 04 Jun 16 - 07:02 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 16 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM
Greg F. 05 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM
Greg F. 05 Jun 16 - 06:01 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 16 - 06:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jun 16 - 06:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jun 16 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 16 - 07:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jun 16 - 10:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 16 - 03:49 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 16 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM
bobad 06 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 16 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM
Greg F. 06 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 16 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM
bobad 06 Jun 16 - 05:04 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 16 - 05:44 PM
Greg F. 06 Jun 16 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM
Greg F. 06 Jun 16 - 08:00 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 16 - 02:13 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 16 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM
Teribus 07 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM
akenaton 07 Jun 16 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 05:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM
bobad 07 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM
bobad 07 Jun 16 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 08:30 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 16 - 09:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 16 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 10:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 10:32 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 16 - 02:43 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 05:09 PM
Teribus 08 Jun 16 - 03:09 AM
Teribus 08 Jun 16 - 03:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 16 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 16 - 03:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 16 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 04:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 08:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 01:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 16 - 06:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 16 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 16 - 03:52 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 16 - 08:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 05:32 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 16 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 16 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 11:07 AM
bobad 11 Jun 16 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jun 16 - 01:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jun 16 - 01:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 16 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 06:13 AM
bobad 12 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM
bobad 12 Jun 16 - 09:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 16 - 10:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 16 - 01:14 PM
bobad 12 Jun 16 - 01:20 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 02:19 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM
bobad 12 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 16 - 06:02 PM
bobad 12 Jun 16 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 04:18 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 16 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 06:40 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 08:58 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 16 - 09:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 16 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM
Greg F. 13 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 12:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 01:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 16 - 02:49 PM
akenaton 14 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM
akenaton 14 Jun 16 - 05:38 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 16 - 06:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 16 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 16 - 10:07 AM
Teribus 14 Jun 16 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 16 - 12:17 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 16 - 01:09 PM
akenaton 14 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 05:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 16 - 06:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 16 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 07:34 PM
bobad 14 Jun 16 - 09:11 PM
Greg F. 14 Jun 16 - 09:25 PM
bobad 14 Jun 16 - 11:00 PM
Teribus 15 Jun 16 - 01:33 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 07:28 AM
bobad 15 Jun 16 - 07:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jun 16 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jun 16 - 01:09 PM
Teribus 15 Jun 16 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM
Teribus 16 Jun 16 - 02:38 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jun 16 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 10:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 12:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 16 - 04:19 AM
Raggytash 26 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 08:35 AM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 11:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 12:28 PM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 16 - 02:26 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 03:09 PM
bobad 22 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 16 - 06:12 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 07:40 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 04:47 AM
Raggytash 23 Jul 16 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 06:36 AM
Stu 23 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM
Raggytash 23 Jul 16 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM
Raggytash 23 Jul 16 - 07:24 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 16 - 07:47 AM
bobad 23 Jul 16 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 16 - 08:37 AM
Stu 23 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 16 - 10:36 AM
Stu 23 Jul 16 - 11:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM
Raggytash 23 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 16 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 16 - 12:05 PM
Raggytash 23 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 04:07 AM
DMcG 24 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 04:28 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 04:30 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 05:02 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 06:14 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 07:25 AM
bobad 24 Jul 16 - 07:43 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 07:45 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 08:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 08:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM
bobad 24 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 09:46 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 10:06 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 12:53 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 01:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 02:05 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 16 - 04:24 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 05:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 04:29 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 05:23 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 07:34 AM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 08:29 AM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 08:56 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 10:21 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 02:14 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 03:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 08:16 PM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 08:48 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 16 - 09:33 PM
bobad 25 Jul 16 - 09:46 PM
Teribus 26 Jul 16 - 12:45 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM
Teribus 26 Jul 16 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 08:24 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 26 Jul 16 - 09:08 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 09:27 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 11:58 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 12:51 PM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 01:51 PM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 16 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 16 - 03:16 PM
Donuel 26 Jul 16 - 03:28 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM
Teribus 26 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 05:54 PM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM
Raggytash 26 Jul 16 - 07:19 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 16 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 03:16 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 03:19 AM
Teribus 27 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 04:58 AM
Raggytash 27 Jul 16 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 AM
Raggytash 27 Jul 16 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 06:15 AM
bobad 27 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 01:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 01:52 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 02:08 PM
bobad 27 Jul 16 - 02:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 16 - 03:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 03:22 PM
Raggytash 27 Jul 16 - 03:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 16 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 05:13 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM
bobad 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 05:47 PM
bobad 27 Jul 16 - 06:05 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 06:40 PM
bobad 27 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 16 - 07:49 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 16 - 08:19 PM
Teribus 28 Jul 16 - 02:18 AM
Raggytash 28 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 05:01 AM
Raggytash 28 Jul 16 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 16 - 07:02 AM
Raggytash 28 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM
Teribus 28 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 16 - 12:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 16 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 16 - 01:52 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 16 - 02:25 PM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM
Raggytash 28 Jul 16 - 04:21 PM
Teribus 28 Jul 16 - 04:46 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 PM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 06:07 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 16 - 06:15 PM
bobad 28 Jul 16 - 06:28 PM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 04:24 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 04:45 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 06:45 AM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 06:54 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 16 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 07:20 AM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 16 - 07:57 AM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 16 - 09:23 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 16 - 10:05 AM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 11:14 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 16 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 16 - 03:03 PM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 04:00 PM
Teribus 29 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 04:13 PM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 04:58 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM
Raggytash 29 Jul 16 - 05:54 PM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 06:34 PM
bobad 29 Jul 16 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jul 16 - 07:43 PM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 01:49 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 16 - 02:38 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 16 - 06:06 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 06:24 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 16 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 07:07 AM
bobad 30 Jul 16 - 08:14 AM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 16 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 09:19 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 16 - 09:59 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 16 - 01:44 PM
Raggytash 30 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 05:08 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 05:52 PM
Teribus 30 Jul 16 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 03:14 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 16 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 07:05 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM
bobad 31 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 16 - 10:21 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 10:44 AM
Raggytash 31 Jul 16 - 10:56 AM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM
bobad 31 Jul 16 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 16 - 02:06 PM
Raggytash 31 Jul 16 - 02:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 16 - 02:33 PM
Raggytash 31 Jul 16 - 02:57 PM
Greg F. 31 Jul 16 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 16 - 03:51 PM
Teribus 31 Jul 16 - 05:40 PM
Greg F. 31 Jul 16 - 05:57 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 16 - 06:59 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 03:47 AM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 04:26 AM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM
Raggytash 01 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Aug 16 - 07:36 AM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Aug 16 - 07:53 AM
Raggytash 01 Aug 16 - 08:06 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM
Raggytash 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 12:34 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 01:03 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Aug 16 - 01:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Aug 16 - 02:01 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 02:09 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 02:31 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 03:18 PM
Raggytash 01 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 16 - 03:36 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 03:48 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 04:07 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 04:29 PM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 05:24 PM
Teribus 01 Aug 16 - 05:29 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM
Greg F. 01 Aug 16 - 09:33 PM
bobad 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 PM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 01:47 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 05:08 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 05:29 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 06:57 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 10:13 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM
Greg F. 02 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 10:56 AM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 11:18 AM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 11:23 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 11:40 AM
Greg F. 02 Aug 16 - 11:59 AM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 12:36 PM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 12:40 PM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM
Stu 02 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM
Teribus 02 Aug 16 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 02:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Aug 16 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 PM
Raggytash 02 Aug 16 - 03:06 PM
Greg F. 02 Aug 16 - 03:33 PM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 02 Aug 16 - 06:03 PM
bobad 02 Aug 16 - 06:35 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 16 - 07:38 PM
Teribus 03 Aug 16 - 03:19 AM
Teribus 03 Aug 16 - 03:36 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 03:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 04:02 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 04:51 AM
Stu 03 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM
Teribus 03 Aug 16 - 05:29 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 06:50 AM
Teribus 03 Aug 16 - 06:59 AM
Stu 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM
Teribus 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 07:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 08:25 AM
Greg F. 03 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM
Greg F. 03 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 10:21 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 16 - 03:17 PM
Raggytash 03 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 16 - 04:44 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Aug 16 - 05:00 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 01:59 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 04:50 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 05:17 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 06:38 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 07:06 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 07:13 AM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 09:10 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 09:22 AM
bobad 04 Aug 16 - 09:22 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 09:58 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 10:10 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 11:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 11:44 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 12:00 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 12:37 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 12:53 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 12:54 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 01:11 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM
bobad 04 Aug 16 - 01:32 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 16 - 01:46 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM
Raggytash 04 Aug 16 - 02:42 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 02:48 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 16 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 03:54 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 03:56 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 16 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 04:13 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 06:02 PM
bobad 04 Aug 16 - 06:38 PM
Greg F. 04 Aug 16 - 08:32 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 16 - 08:43 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 02:13 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 02:24 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 03:50 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 04:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 04:27 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 05:43 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 06:04 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 06:46 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 07:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 07:24 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 07:42 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 07:58 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 08:24 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 08:30 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 09:06 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 09:49 AM
Greg F. 05 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 10:34 AM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 10:44 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 10:51 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 11:01 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 12:27 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 12:35 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 12:41 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 16 - 02:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 02:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 16 - 03:00 PM
Raggytash 05 Aug 16 - 03:34 PM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 04:54 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 05:26 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 16 - 05:28 PM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 05:34 PM
Greg F. 05 Aug 16 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 06:03 PM
Greg F. 05 Aug 16 - 06:41 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Aug 16 - 07:07 PM
bobad 05 Aug 16 - 10:43 PM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 01:35 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 16 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 05:30 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 05:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 16 - 06:42 AM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 07:23 AM
Raggytash 06 Aug 16 - 07:38 AM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 08:01 AM
Raggytash 06 Aug 16 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 16 - 08:28 AM
Greg F. 06 Aug 16 - 09:30 AM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 09:53 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 11:28 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 16 - 12:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 16 - 02:21 PM
bobad 06 Aug 16 - 02:33 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 02:53 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 16 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM
Raggytash 06 Aug 16 - 04:15 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 16 - 04:38 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 16 - 05:12 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 16 - 06:44 PM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 10:58 PM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 11:06 PM
Teribus 06 Aug 16 - 11:10 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 16 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM
Raggytash 07 Aug 16 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 16 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM
bobad 07 Aug 16 - 07:51 AM
Teribus 07 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 16 - 09:20 AM
Donuel 07 Aug 16 - 09:31 AM
Greg F. 07 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM
Raggytash 07 Aug 16 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 16 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 07 Aug 16 - 03:57 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 16 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 16 - 04:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 16 - 04:20 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 16 - 04:48 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 16 - 05:21 PM
bobad 07 Aug 16 - 08:40 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 16 - 11:29 PM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 04:34 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 04:36 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 05:02 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 05:10 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 05:43 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 06:21 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 06:29 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM
bobad 08 Aug 16 - 07:51 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 08:17 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 08:46 AM
Greg F. 08 Aug 16 - 09:10 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 09:32 AM
bobad 08 Aug 16 - 10:24 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 11:11 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 11:26 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 11:27 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 11:37 AM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 11:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 11:46 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 11:53 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 16 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 16 - 03:34 PM
Raggytash 08 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 16 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 16 - 07:08 PM
Teribus 08 Aug 16 - 07:45 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 16 - 09:23 PM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 01:37 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 01:50 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 03:56 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 04:32 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Aug 16 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 16 - 07:54 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 09:19 AM
Raggytash 09 Aug 16 - 10:25 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 10:27 AM
Stu 09 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 10:33 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 10:44 AM
Greg F. 09 Aug 16 - 10:47 AM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 11:05 AM
Raggytash 09 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 16 - 11:54 AM
Raggytash 09 Aug 16 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 12:28 PM
Greg F. 09 Aug 16 - 12:44 PM
Teribus 09 Aug 16 - 01:49 PM
bobad 09 Aug 16 - 02:02 PM
MikeL2 09 Aug 16 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 16 - 02:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 16 - 02:19 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 02:57 PM
Greg F. 09 Aug 16 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM
The Sandman 09 Aug 16 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM
bobad 09 Aug 16 - 08:31 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Aug 16 - 04:22 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 16 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Aug 16 - 05:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Aug 16 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 16 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 06:56 AM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 09:51 AM
Teribus 11 Aug 16 - 09:57 AM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 11:08 AM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 12:57 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 16 - 01:06 PM
Teribus 11 Aug 16 - 01:11 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 16 - 03:03 PM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 16 - 03:58 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 04:05 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 16 - 04:23 PM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 05:01 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 05:05 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 05:11 PM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 16 - 05:23 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 06:00 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM
bobad 11 Aug 16 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 07:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Aug 16 - 07:09 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 16 - 08:02 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 02:09 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 04:46 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 05:57 AM
bobad 12 Aug 16 - 07:29 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 07:30 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM
Raggytash 12 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 07:56 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 09:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 09:57 AM
Greg F. 12 Aug 16 - 10:02 AM
bobad 12 Aug 16 - 10:08 AM
Raggytash 12 Aug 16 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 11:42 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 11:57 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 12:24 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 01:20 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM
Raggytash 12 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM
Raggytash 12 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 01:52 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 02:30 AM
Raggytash 13 Aug 16 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM
Raggytash 13 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 16 - 06:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM
Raggytash 13 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 07:48 AM
bobad 13 Aug 16 - 08:04 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 10:20 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 16 - 11:49 AM
DMcG 13 Aug 16 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM
bobad 13 Aug 16 - 01:47 PM
Greg F. 13 Aug 16 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 16 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 16 - 06:16 PM
bobad 13 Aug 16 - 06:58 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 07:22 PM
Teribus 14 Aug 16 - 01:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 16 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 16 - 04:21 AM
Raggytash 14 Aug 16 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 16 - 07:22 AM
Raggytash 14 Aug 16 - 08:03 AM
Greg F. 14 Aug 16 - 08:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 16 - 11:36 AM
Raggytash 14 Aug 16 - 01:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 16 - 03:46 PM
bobad 14 Aug 16 - 05:20 PM
Teribus 14 Aug 16 - 06:32 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 16 - 06:48 PM
bobad 14 Aug 16 - 07:06 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 16 - 08:14 PM
bobad 14 Aug 16 - 09:18 PM
Greg F. 14 Aug 16 - 09:28 PM
bobad 14 Aug 16 - 09:50 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 16 - 09:11 AM
Raggytash 15 Aug 16 - 09:26 AM
Teribus 15 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM
Greg F. 15 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Aug 16 - 11:14 AM
Teribus 15 Aug 16 - 11:26 AM
Raggytash 15 Aug 16 - 12:35 PM
Raggytash 15 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Aug 16 - 12:47 PM
Teribus 15 Aug 16 - 12:55 PM
Raggytash 15 Aug 16 - 03:59 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 16 - 04:55 PM
Teribus 15 Aug 16 - 05:36 PM
Raggytash 15 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM
bobad 15 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM
bobad 15 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 16 - 07:59 PM
bobad 15 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 02:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 03:04 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 04:00 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 04:56 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 05:15 AM
bobad 16 Aug 16 - 06:47 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 08:07 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 08:22 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 10:45 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 11:00 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 16 - 11:06 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 16 - 11:21 AM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 06:20 PM
Greg F. 16 Aug 16 - 06:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 06:51 PM
Raggytash 16 Aug 16 - 07:11 PM
Greg F. 16 Aug 16 - 08:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 08:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 08:29 PM
Greg F. 16 Aug 16 - 09:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 04:08 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 07:29 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 16 - 08:56 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 09:41 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 09:45 AM
Greg F. 17 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM
Greg F. 17 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 10:18 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 11:31 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 16 - 01:39 PM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 16 - 03:40 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 16 - 06:09 AM
Greg F. 18 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 16 - 09:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 05:37 AM
Raggytash 19 Aug 16 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM
Raggytash 19 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 08:35 AM
Greg F. 19 Aug 16 - 09:37 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 19 Aug 16 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 16 - 12:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 16 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 16 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 16 - 03:59 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 16 - 07:33 AM
bobad 20 Aug 16 - 08:30 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 16 - 09:39 AM
bobad 20 Aug 16 - 10:29 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 16 - 10:37 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM
bobad 20 Aug 16 - 10:54 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 16 - 11:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 16 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 16 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Aug 16 - 11:27 AM
bobad 21 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 16 - 12:31 PM
Greg F. 21 Aug 16 - 12:54 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 16 - 01:09 PM
Greg F. 21 Aug 16 - 01:55 PM
bobad 21 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 21 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 16 - 02:08 PM
bobad 21 Aug 16 - 02:16 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 16 - 02:21 PM
bobad 21 Aug 16 - 05:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 16 - 04:36 AM
Raggytash 22 Aug 16 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 16 - 08:41 AM
Greg F. 22 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Aug 16 - 09:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 16 - 12:16 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM
Raggytash 22 Aug 16 - 01:22 PM
bobad 22 Aug 16 - 01:40 PM
Raggytash 22 Aug 16 - 02:25 PM
bobad 22 Aug 16 - 04:40 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Aug 16 - 05:28 PM
Greg F. 22 Aug 16 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Aug 16 - 07:04 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Aug 16 - 07:12 PM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 01:49 AM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 02:02 AM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 16 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 16 - 04:16 AM
Raggytash 23 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Aug 16 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 16 - 09:17 AM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 09:29 AM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 09:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM
Greg F. 23 Aug 16 - 10:16 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Aug 16 - 10:19 AM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 11:35 AM
Greg F. 23 Aug 16 - 11:46 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Aug 16 - 12:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 01:13 PM
Teribus 23 Aug 16 - 01:17 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Aug 16 - 02:28 PM
Greg F. 23 Aug 16 - 06:15 PM
Teribus 24 Aug 16 - 12:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 16 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 16 - 03:53 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Aug 16 - 07:23 AM
bobad 24 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 24 Aug 16 - 12:16 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Aug 16 - 12:26 PM
Teribus 24 Aug 16 - 07:47 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Aug 16 - 08:42 PM
Teribus 25 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 07:45 AM
Greg F. 25 Aug 16 - 08:57 AM
Teribus 25 Aug 16 - 09:35 AM
Greg F. 25 Aug 16 - 09:42 AM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM
Teribus 25 Aug 16 - 12:57 PM
Greg F. 25 Aug 16 - 01:00 PM
Teribus 25 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM
Greg F. 25 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 05:01 PM
Teribus 25 Aug 16 - 06:16 PM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 07:06 PM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 07:30 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 08:03 PM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 08:13 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 09:06 PM
bobad 25 Aug 16 - 09:17 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 09:19 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Aug 16 - 09:23 PM
ripov 25 Aug 16 - 09:30 PM
Teribus 26 Aug 16 - 02:28 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 05:34 AM
Teribus 26 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM
bobad 26 Aug 16 - 08:18 AM
Donuel 26 Aug 16 - 08:42 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 09:01 AM
Donuel 26 Aug 16 - 10:43 AM
Greg F. 26 Aug 16 - 01:10 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 04:11 PM
Teribus 26 Aug 16 - 04:24 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 04:49 PM
bobad 26 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM
Greg F. 26 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 05:41 PM
Teribus 26 Aug 16 - 07:31 PM
Teribus 26 Aug 16 - 07:40 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 16 - 08:56 PM
bobad 26 Aug 16 - 09:21 PM
Greg F. 26 Aug 16 - 09:39 PM
Teribus 27 Aug 16 - 02:37 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 06:24 AM
Teribus 27 Aug 16 - 06:40 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 07:12 AM
Donuel 27 Aug 16 - 08:37 AM
Greg F. 27 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM
bobad 27 Aug 16 - 10:26 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM
Teribus 27 Aug 16 - 12:11 PM
bobad 27 Aug 16 - 12:50 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 12:52 PM
Greg F. 27 Aug 16 - 01:16 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 16 - 07:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 04:10 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 05:23 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM
bobad 28 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 08:40 AM
bobad 28 Aug 16 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 09:18 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 09:39 AM
bobad 28 Aug 16 - 10:10 AM
bobad 28 Aug 16 - 10:13 AM
Teribus 28 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM
Teribus 28 Aug 16 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 12:03 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 12:38 PM
Greg F. 28 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 02:18 PM
Greg F. 28 Aug 16 - 02:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 16 - 04:12 PM
Greg F. 28 Aug 16 - 05:09 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 16 - 05:13 PM
bobad 28 Aug 16 - 10:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 16 - 05:09 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM
bobad 29 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 16 - 06:59 PM
Greg F. 29 Aug 16 - 09:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 16 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 16 - 04:30 AM
bobad 30 Aug 16 - 08:27 AM
bobad 30 Aug 16 - 08:34 AM
Greg F. 30 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM
bobad 30 Aug 16 - 09:19 AM
Greg F. 30 Aug 16 - 10:09 AM
bobad 30 Aug 16 - 05:18 PM
Greg F. 30 Aug 16 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Aug 16 - 08:12 PM
bobad 30 Aug 16 - 09:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 08:42 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM
Teribus 31 Aug 16 - 11:31 AM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 02:45 PM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Aug 16 - 03:04 PM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 04:52 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 16 - 05:22 PM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 05:41 PM
bobad 31 Aug 16 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 16 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 16 - 05:57 PM
Greg F. 31 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Aug 16 - 08:04 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 16 - 09:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Sep 16 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Sep 16 - 05:30 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 08:38 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 16 - 09:35 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 16 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Sep 16 - 03:49 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 05:06 PM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 06:47 PM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 06:55 PM
Greg F. 01 Sep 16 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 07:11 PM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 07:18 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 07:20 PM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 07:32 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 07:42 PM
bobad 01 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 16 - 08:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 16 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 08:11 AM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 16 - 12:08 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 06:01 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 06:29 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 06:30 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 16 - 06:38 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 06:48 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM
bobad 02 Sep 16 - 10:36 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 16 - 04:18 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 16 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 08:58 AM
bobad 03 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM
Greg F. 03 Sep 16 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 16 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 10:50 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 16 - 12:12 PM
Greg F. 03 Sep 16 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 12:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 16 - 01:26 PM
Greg F. 03 Sep 16 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 16 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM
bobad 03 Sep 16 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 16 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 06:28 AM
bobad 04 Sep 16 - 07:37 AM
bobad 04 Sep 16 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 08:15 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 08:24 AM
bobad 04 Sep 16 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 09:04 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 16 - 11:39 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 01:15 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 03:44 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 16 - 03:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Sep 16 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 05:35 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 05:40 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Sep 16 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 01:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 07:17 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 07:24 AM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 07:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 08:32 AM
Uncle Tone 06 Sep 16 - 08:55 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 09:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM
Uncle Tone 06 Sep 16 - 10:27 AM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 11:01 AM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 11:02 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 12:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 01:41 PM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Sep 16 - 03:01 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 05:18 PM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 07:12 PM
Greg F. 06 Sep 16 - 08:00 PM
bobad 06 Sep 16 - 08:47 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 09:19 PM
Teribus 07 Sep 16 - 02:24 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 04:24 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM
Raggytash 07 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 06:09 AM
Raggytash 07 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 06:52 AM
Raggytash 07 Sep 16 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM
Raggytash 07 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 10:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 16 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 03:34 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM
Greg F. 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 02:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 16 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 04:59 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM
Raggytash 08 Sep 16 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 16 - 11:11 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 01:01 PM
Greg F. 08 Sep 16 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 02:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 16 - 03:32 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM
Greg F. 08 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM
Teribus 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM
Teribus 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 16 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 16 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 16 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 09 Sep 16 - 09:15 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM
Raggytash 09 Sep 16 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM
bobad 09 Sep 16 - 04:38 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 05:26 PM
bobad 09 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM
bobad 09 Sep 16 - 05:48 PM
Greg F. 09 Sep 16 - 07:05 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM
bobad 09 Sep 16 - 08:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 16 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 16 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM
Greg F. 10 Sep 16 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM
Teribus 10 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM
Greg F. 10 Sep 16 - 01:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 16 - 02:06 PM
Teribus 10 Sep 16 - 05:11 PM
Greg F. 10 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM
Teribus 11 Sep 16 - 01:56 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 16 - 08:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 05:52 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 16 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 07:38 AM
Raggytash 12 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM
bobad 12 Sep 16 - 08:07 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 16 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 09:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 01:22 PM
bobad 12 Sep 16 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 16 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 16 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 16 - 03:53 PM
bobad 12 Sep 16 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 16 - 08:49 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 03:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 16 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 16 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 16 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 16 - 01:27 PM
Teribus 13 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 16 - 05:42 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 16 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 16 - 06:17 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 16 - 07:21 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 16 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 16 - 08:02 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM
Teribus 15 Sep 16 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM
Teribus 15 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM
Teribus 15 Sep 16 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 16 - 03:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 16 - 09:27 PM
Teribus 16 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM
bobad 16 Sep 16 - 07:30 AM
Greg F. 21 Sep 16 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 16 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM
Greg F. 21 Sep 16 - 12:18 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 16 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 16 - 01:08 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM
bobad 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM
Greg F. 21 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 16 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 16 - 03:21 PM
bobad 21 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 16 - 04:28 PM
Teribus 22 Sep 16 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 06:47 AM
Teribus 22 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM
Teribus 22 Sep 16 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM
Greg F. 22 Sep 16 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 16 - 02:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 16 - 03:00 PM
Andy7 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 05:04 PM
Andy7 22 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 05:41 PM
Andy7 22 Sep 16 - 05:53 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 06:26 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 06:49 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 16 - 07:16 PM
bobad 22 Sep 16 - 07:27 PM
Teribus 22 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM
Teribus 23 Sep 16 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 02:53 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Sep 16 - 03:45 AM
Teribus 23 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM
Teribus 23 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM
Teribus 23 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 03:26 PM
Andy7 23 Sep 16 - 07:50 PM
Teribus 24 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM
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Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 03:41 AM
Teribus 24 Sep 16 - 09:38 AM
bobad 24 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 12:36 PM
Teribus 25 Sep 16 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM
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Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 04:12 AM
Teribus 25 Sep 16 - 04:24 AM
Teribus 25 Sep 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 05:29 AM
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Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 07:06 AM
Teribus 25 Sep 16 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM
Teribus 25 Sep 16 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 16 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 16 - 03:13 AM
Teribus 26 Sep 16 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM
Teribus 26 Sep 16 - 01:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 16 - 01:17 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 04:13 PM
bobad 26 Sep 16 - 05:02 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 16 - 06:35 PM
bobad 26 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 04:10 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 02:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 02:20 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM
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Teribus 29 Sep 16 - 01:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 10:35 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM
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bobad 02 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM
bobad 05 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM
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Subject: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:49 AM

Only a few months into JC's leadership and they are in real trouble.
What is it with the hard left and anti-semitism?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM

Dunno Keith, do tell....


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

It's partly about the slippery slope between criticism of the State of Israel which is sometimes called Anti-Zionism and criticism of all or most Jewish people which is sometimes called Antisemitism.

The first is generally regarded as legitimate, the second as racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM

The Labour Party has fallen victim to the Israeli campaign to implicate the Jewish people in their terrorism - to them, anybody who criticises Israel is "Antisemitic".
By definition, the Israeli regime is Antisemitic and has caused the current rise in Antisemitism - they have painted a target on the backs of every Jew on the planet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

So its all Israel's fault!
Thanks for clearing that up Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM

Yet another cynical contrived opportunistic attack on Corbyn from enemies within the party, and the right wing media..

[ not so much from the tories this time as they need his support on EU ]

The BBC news was shamefully biased yesterday
- shows how much The Beeb has been tamed and shackled by the corporate right in the last few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

"Thanks for clearing that up Jim."
You are very welcome.
Is it not part of the European definition that an attempt to equate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People as a whole is "antisemitic"?
Is it not true that the knee-jerk response of the Israeli regime is to describe any criticism as "Antisemitism", even to describing the Untied nations as such and attempting to have the International Criminal Court closed down to avoid standing trial for the mass killings of civilians and destruction of hospitals and homes of Palestinians?
Yes ort no will do, but I would prefer 'no' to be qualified with facts rather than just denials.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

Not just the right wing media.

Labour antisemitism crisis: party deals with fallout of Livingstone suspension – live
The Guardian‎ - 23 mins ago
Ken Livingstone leaves his home in London after being suspended from the Labour party.
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national press

The Guardian‎ - 4 hours ago
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his last second chance
The Guardian‎ - 1 hour ago
More news for guardian livingstone
Ken Livingstone | Politics | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/politics/livingstone
Live Labour suspends Ken Livingstone over Hitler and antisemitism row - Politics live ... Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks.
Is this self-ignited firestorm the end for Ken Livingstone ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Ken Livingstone
15 hours ago - This could be it for Ken Livingstone and the Labour party. To be cast into the wilderness by his party once, as he was before winning the ...
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national ...
www.theguardian.com › Media › Ken Livingstone
4 hours ago - As the Guardian said: "With singular crassness, instead of clearing the air ... The Times viewed Livingstone's "grotesque analogies" and ...
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Labour
1 hour ago - London Mayor Ken Livingstone at the Labour party conference in 2005. 'As in all groups ... Photograph: Dan Chung for the Guardian. Contact ...
Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour has suspended the former London mayor Ken Livingstone "for bringing the party into disrepute" after MPs accused of him of ...
Ken Livingstone's Hitler remarks spark Labour calls for ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour is facing numerous calls to suspend the former London mayor Ken Livingstone after he was accused of antisemitism and making ...
Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspensi


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

Last time I was a daily Guardian reader was over 30 years ago...

I presume it's perhaps even more comfy liberal middle class these days.. hardly socialist worker / morning star ....???

So these out of context extracts don't exactly do much but demonstrate reasonably neutral objective reporting.

The unattributed "grotesque analogies" quote might veer towards opinionated reporting.. perhaps..????


In the bigger game of 'divide and rule' the Guardian is surely of not much consequence...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM

"Not just the right wing media."
Where does any of this contradict anything I have put up about Israeli Antisemitism in implicating the entire Jewish population in Isreli atrocities - is the press now made up of "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops"?
The Israeli have devised a technique of dismissing criticism of all their atrocities as anti-Semitic and to a degree, they have been successful
Doesn't make the Israeli regime any less Antisemitic.
If to criticise Israel is Antisemitic - Erinstein, Haaretz, the former heads of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families are Antisemites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:28 AM

Nicely deflects any media criticism away from the present government for a day or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 10:40 AM

Just like here the shit always rises to the surface.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

The assertions of antisemitism (in the usual meanings of the word) in the Labour party are conjurations. The criticisms of Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone are part of a concerted attempt by two interest groups to undermine the Labour party (with the local elections coming), to undermine Jeremy Corbyn (who seeks to defend the Palestinians from Zionist oppression) and to weaponise the assertion that criticism of Israel and its vile government and its murderous armed forces are antisemitic. One such group is the Zionists, and the other is the bitterites, who would rather see Labour lose an election than accept that the Labour has roundly rejected con-servative lite policies such as those of Tony B.Liar.

There have been attempts since at least 2005 to insert criticism of Israel into conventional definitions of antisemitism.

The Naz Shah meme most complained of was a witty rejoinder to the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948, and has at least recently been subsidising the Israeli military (and thus the US weapons manufacturing sector) with vast sums of money. Israel has nuclear weapons modern warplanes and white phosphorus. Palestine in general and Gaza in particular have none. The Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by Palestinians. Some of the people the Israeli armed forces summarily execute are children with their hands tied behind their backs.

Ken Livingstone was and remains historically accurate - and the quite remarkable thing is that the loathsome Netanyahu made exactly the same point about the Haaretz agreement.

Another fascinating thing is that the hasbara have also claimed the scalp of a young aide appointed by Sanders to improve his Jewish vote.

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

Bridge defending antisemites......is anyone surprised by that?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:15 PM

" the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948"

Absolutely dying to hear the substantive evidence that backs that statement up. Great Britain relinquished and gave up its League of Nations Mandate precisely when it should have done. Nothing whatsoever to do with the USA or any bullying. The floor is yours Bridge let's hear the detail.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM

Has Livingstone been proven by any decent sensible reasonable standards to be any kind of racist ?

He may be a bit of a dick with a tongue in cheek sense of humour that is deliberately misconstrued by enemies determined to find things to be offended by..

but a racist ?????

This whole pernicious poisonous "I call you that thing, so therefore you are that thing" tactic employed by the labour traitors over the last few days
just shows some of them them up to be desperate pathetic shites.

Then there are all the cowards who fail to back up Livingstone for fear of being called that thing themselves...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 01:35 AM

I rather like Ken Livingstone and think he has been rather naïve over this, but surely the "liberal" left including Richard indulge in this sort of behaviour all the time?

It is becoming impossible to discuss controversial subjects anywhere without being attacked verbally.

Discussions on immigration become "racism", health rates "homophobia", support for anyone but Mrs Clinton "misogyny".
Take your pick.......Political Correctness rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:04 AM

Thanks to Israeli efforts, criticism of Israel and Antisemitism have become indistinguishable.
This campaign has become a knee-jerk reaction of at least one regular contributor to this forum who has disappeared since the new rule of allowing only members to post to BS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM

Sorry - didn't finish.
Having said that, it is the responsibility of politicians and others in the public eye to choose their words carefully - the social network can be a bit of a pain in the arse, especially after closing time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

I noted that when Ken was suspending the charge was not directly anti-Semitism but 'bringing the party into disrepute', and if that related to a somewhat intemperate row in front of the media, Mann is every bit as guilty.

Like Richard, I was pretty convinced what Ken actually said was historically accurate (unlike Mann's comments), so I looked them up and I think his case is solid, providing you interpret wanting the Jews to go to Israel to be supportive of Zionism (and remember the accusers are repeatedly saying that only means "having the right to a self governing state of Israel") But since when has being historically accurate mattered much against emotional appeals?

As to headline question: whither the Labour Party? Much depends on how the May 5th elections turn out. The bitterites will stress every loss of a seat and ignore every win; the Corbynites will do the reverse. That is, politics as normal. It will only differ from this if there is a complete collapse of one side or the other, which isn't very likely.

As an aside, I heard a clever parody of "Benjamin Bowmaneer" at the club last night "I'll tell how the wars began, Anthony Blair-i-o.."
That still has a huge impact on the 'whither Labour' question.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:24 AM

Why cant Livingston And Mann shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done. Does Mann care if Goldsmith wins the mayor election and ordinary Londoners face increased fares, and are finally kicked out of the capital because of house prices, or forced to live in 3 x 3 metre homes with shared bathrooms and cooking facilities and pay over £1,000 for the privilege. But why should he give a toss, he has a safe seat and he gets his face in the Daily Mail.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:33 AM

Sorry for the missing apostrophe in can't. I will be back out canvassing and leafleting for the next 9 hours


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:45 AM

I am with SPB:

"Why cant Livingston And Mann (and loads of others) shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 05:26 AM

Why can't I help but feel it was a set up.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:05 AM

Because you're a conspiracy theorist? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:14 AM

Ah ......... there may be an element of truth in that, but who told you that I was.

On a more realistic note Akenaton just happening to be were he knew Ken Livingstone was going to be and just happening to have a TV crew at hand and to behave as he did in front of a TV instead of in private you have to ask yourself some questions about the validity of the whole scenario.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:16 AM

Just joking Raggytash.....I'm sure you have a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:21 AM

I know you were Akenaton and thank you for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 12:47 PM

Conspiracy theory....???

This current rancid attack on Corbyn's allies and leadership stinks so obviously of a strategically timed orchestrated smear campaign
to ferment divisive internal disruption and hostilities within the Labour party.

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

This shoul be a good conspiracy guessing game over the bank holiday...

The outrage being generated is so over exaggerated and phoney
that the stooges in the frontline of the media attack
are just making themselves look very stupid...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:02 PM

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

Definitely a conspiracy instigated by Jews/Zionists in order to discredit Corbyn and the Labour party. They tricked Labour party members into making antisemitic comments so that they would reveal themselves as being antisemites. The Jews/Zionists, besides controlling world banking, governments and the media, have extraordinary powers to effect people into saying things that they don't really mean. This is but only one way these nefarious people exert their will upon the unsuspecting.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:26 PM

"extraordinary powers"... what.. like supernatural super hero mesmerising mind controls powers...???

that'd be well cool....!!!

I'll have to ask my mum if anyone on her side of the family could do that and can let me in on the secrets..... 😎


Though in reality, it's probably less fantasy sci fi conspiracy theory explanation
and more likely just plain old mundane covert intelligence agency influence & interference with UK political parties and media...??? 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:00 AM

I think the real point is that Mr Corbyn is unlikely to survive as leader of a socialist party with no socialist representatives.
Skeletons will continue to be unearthed by a disgusting, dirt delving media, and a system which sees any alternative to jungle law as enathema

The contradictions are starting to show once again. The movement needs to go back to the grass roots, forget about government and concentrate on education; which is difficult when political representation is equated to a career opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:54 AM

Going back a bit, anyone who said anything bad about Jimmy Saville, or about police/government behaviour over Hillsborough would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:07 AM

According to a report issued by the Campaign Against Anti-semitism    the number of hate crimes against Jews in Britain has reached a shocking high. Police recorded almost 1,000 anti-Semitic offences in 2015 - up 25 per cent. The findings also revealed that the growth in anti-Semitism is a core part of far-Left ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:23 AM

Interesting article here from this morning's Irish Times.
Jim Carroll

Anti-Semitism claims are used for political End
David Landy and Ronit Lentin
Opposition to Israel must not be confused with the evil hatred of Jewish people.

The recent calls to expel former London mayor Ken Livingstone from the British Labour Party have created a worrying alliance between those who use accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israel and those who use them to attack supporters of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn. The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism.
In response, Livingstone cautioned against "confusing criticism of the Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism", and defended Corbyn, who had been accused of not taking firm enough action against anti-Semitism in the party, which, he said, was part of a smear campaign against the party leader.
Europeans need to face their history of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. Ireland has its own part in that history, the Irish government only admitted 60 Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution between 1933 and 1946. Anti-Semitic sentiments continue - this was clear during the attack on the Hyper Casher supermarket in Paris after the Charlie Hebdo murders.
Israel vs Jews
However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism.
Such efforts to equate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism follow the state of Israel in conflating Jews with Zionists, even though not all Jews are Zionists or Israel supporters.
Growing numbers of Jewish people in and outside Israel - international groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, as well as Israeli groups such as Boycott from Within - oppose Israeli policies, do not define themselves as Zionists and support the BDS movement. The growing accusations of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel are aimed primarily at discrediting the successful BDS movement.
Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being "self-hating Jews" is a central element of this campaign.
Accusations as weapons
Returning to the Labour Party, the Jewish Socialist Group has attacked the "weaponising" of accusations of anti-Semitism by forces intent on undermining the leadership of Corbyn.
Likewise the group Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods worries that "the pro-Zionist lobby - Jewish and non-Jewish - deliberately and maliciously seeks to associate Jew-hatred with criticism of Israel in the public mind", despite the insistence by Corbyn's team that "anti-Semitism is a vile prejudice that is not permitted in the Labour Party" and its pledge to expel anyone found guilty of it.
The expulsions have taken on the character of a witch hunt. For instance, Jewish activist Tony Greenstein who has long campaigned against anti-Semitism in Palestine solidarity circles, has been accused of anti-Semitism and suspended from the Labour Party. The collection of scalps has emboldened supporters of Israel with the Britain Israel communications and Research Centre seeking to whip up animosity and tweeting followers to "save your pitch fork for Corbyn".
Such cynical political acts cheapen the grave charge of anti-Semitism. In this atmosphere where such allegations are used to silence political opponents, it is tempting to reject any and all accusations of anti-Semitism. This too must be guarded against - anti-Semitism needs to be tackled wherever it exists. In this battle, there is an urgent need to resist conflating
opposition to Israel with anti-Jewish racism.

David Landy is an assistant professor of sociology and Ronit Lentin is a retired associate professor of sociology at Trinity College Dublin


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:50 AM

Campaign Against Antisemitism issues report on British Muslims and antisemitism

12th April 2016

For at least twenty years, the British Jewish community has been out in front when it comes to interfaith work. As Britain's Muslim population has grown, British Jews assumed that interfaith models that led to huge advances in relations with British Christians, could apply just as well to relations with British Muslims. Indeed building bridges with British Muslims has become the focus of outreach work by British Jews.

Today, our analysis of the ICM survey of British Muslims for Channel 4 and Juniper Television shows that the gradual buildup of understanding and friendship between Britain's Jews and Muslims has been utterly eclipsed by growing antisemitism amongst British Muslims.

On every single count, British Muslims were more likely by far than the general British population to hold deeply antisemitic views. It is clear that many British Muslims reserve a special hatred for British Jews, rating Jews much less favourably than people of other religions or no religion, yet astonishingly British Muslims largely do not recognise antisemitism as a major problem.

It has long been suspected that sections of the British Muslim population harboured hatred towards British Jews. This survey goes some way to identifying pockets of prejudice, but it also shows that the prejudice is horrifyingly widespread.

From the ICM survey data made available by Channel 4 and Juniper Television, we have been able to identify some of the worst pockets of prejudice. Antisemitic British Muslims are more likely to be men, to be older than 35, to be social renters, to be in employment, to have been born outside Britain, to live south of the Midlands in England, or in Scotland, and they are overwhelmingly likely to sympathise with terrorism, violence and extremism.

The data is frustratingly limited in one some respects, and one in particular: it does not delve into the various political and religious movements that comprise the British Muslim population.

This data shows that Jews remain the 'canary in the coal mine', as they have been throughout history: those who harbour hatred of Jews also hate British society and sympathise with our most deadly enemies. Britain must confront rampant antisemitism within its Muslim population, but also amongst the general population, whose shocking views should be no less concerning simply because the views of British Muslims are worse.

Read the Report


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 11:42 AM

"Read the Report"
It's worth noting that The Campaign Against Antisemitism is an organisation that was set up specifically in 2014 to offset of the condemnation of Massacres, atrocities and potential war crimes carried out by Israel in Gaza, (avoided as being judged such by the efforts of the Israelis to have the International Criminal Court, also accused of "Antisemitism" discontinued)
Basically,the C.A.A. is an Israel support group which has co-operated with Israel to change the definition of 'Antisemitism' to include any criticism of Israel - making it virtually impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and condemnation of War crimes and atrocities by Israel.
Equating Israeli policy with The Jewish People as a whole is in itself Antisemitic by definition.
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Accepted definition by the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism
Anybody who accuses critics of Israel of being Antisemitic are, in fact Antisemitic - this includes the present Israeli regime.
Read the Irish Times article
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 01:30 PM

Campaign Against Antisemitism has analysed research undertaken by ICM Unlimited for Channel 4 and Juniper Television. We were not involved in the production of the research, and have not influenced its methodology.

Two surveys were undertaken: a survey of a representative sample of British Muslims and a representative survey of a sample of the general British population. ICM conducted face-to-face interviews of 1,081 British Muslims aged over 18 between 25th April and 31st May 2015. They then conducted telephone interviews of 1,008 members of the general British public aged over 18 between 5th June and 7th June 2015. In both cases, the data was weighted by age, gender, region and work status, to ensure that it was as representative as possible. The data was released in April 2016 in advance of a Channel 4 television programme based on the data.

The analysis in this document does not make up part of the Channel 4 programme; it represents a close reading of the ICM polling data with a view to better understanding the specific issue of Muslim antisemitism in Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 02:54 PM

As I said, the Israelis have deliberately made it damn near impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and criticism of their crimes
They even describe Jews who critice their crimes ( Einsteing - the holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for Peace) as "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:26 PM

Jim's Irish Times artical states,
" In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism."

That appears not to be true.
it is still current on the EUMC site.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 06:41 PM

Keith, it's the Irish Times, no more needs to be said.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 07:49 PM

No surprise that, this is what the regressive left has become.

"Over 50 members of the British Labour Party have been suspended over anti-Semitic and racist remarks over the last two months, the Telegraph reported on Monday, nearly 40 more than publicly admitted by the party.

Labour suspended up to 20 members in the last two weeks alone, according to the report, which cited an unnamed senior source within the party, who added that the suspensions made public were just the "tip of the iceberg."

Haaretz


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 03:22 AM

David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel.
Electronic Intifada.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:01 AM

Why, at a time when Labour members in general, and the Parliamentary Labour Party in particular, should be uniting and waging non-stop war on the vilest, most deceitful and damaging Tory government ever inflicted on the United Kingdom, are they wittering on, attacking their own members and their leader, and wasting their combined energy over some perceived 'anti-semitism'?

Labour MPs were elected to oppose the Self-Servatives in Parliament. Time they got on with it, or found a different job. There's considerably more than enough to keep them fully occupied fighting Tory mis-rule, without indulging in stupid playground-games trying to unseat their own leader (who, incidentally, was elected in a landslide, by Labour Party members).

They should do what they were elected to do, or Foxtrot Oscar.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:13 AM

"David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel."
So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
Ronit Lentin, the other author, is Jewish, born in the newly-formed State of Israel
What's your point Keith?
Do you actually have anything to say on the points made by the article or would you rather nit-pick possible errors?
It suggests that Israel is using "Antisemitism" as a catch-all defence of its criminal behaviour and goes to great pains to suggest why.
How about dealing with that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:28 AM

So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
They do.
What is your point.
We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all.

They did say, " The EUMC has since abandoned this wording" but that exact wording is still on their site.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:42 AM

Keith, the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition except by those who want to muzzle criticism of Israel and its oppressive conduct - for example but not by way of limitation see - https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-lobby-uses-discredited-anti-semitism-definition-muzzle-debate/11716


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:27 AM

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as in the past in an expanded form
Jim Carroll

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:34 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all."
So being Palestinian presumes they are incapable of being neutral or objective, no matter who they are?
Bit racist doncha think?
You decline to comment on the co-author being an Israel - is that because the fact she was born in Israel makes her "objective and reliable"
To all articles have to undergo you racial purity test before we can take them seriously?
bit of a blast from the past, eh what!!
The Nazis were defeated, South Africal Apartheid is Dead and the Good ol' South is emancipated - hopefully, their ideologies went with them, but not here apparently.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:56 AM

Richard, that is produced by representatives from all counties of the EU as indicative of antisemitism.
I would hardly expect the antisemetic site "Electronic Intifada" to agree.
Is that your only evidence for saying,
"the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition?"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:00 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. "
So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.
You decline to comment on the co-author - is that because she is Israeli and therefore "neutral or objective"?
Bit racist, doncha think?
I pointed out the fact that the article by 'The Campaign Against Antisemitism' was questionable not because its authors were Jews, but because the organisation was actually set up to defend Israeli atrocities and war crimes - not the Jewish people but the behaviour of the Israeli Regime - who contributes to its upkeep.

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as the old one in an expanded form
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:10 AM

So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.

No, but anti-Israel Palestinian activists are by definition not neutral.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Where does it suggest that either of these authors are "anti-Israeli"
Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?

You would not accept the view of such a person as objective and neutral about the motivation and tactics of the Palestinians.
You always challenge anything quoted from such people as being inadmissible to the discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:42 PM

Not true Keith - I have questioned their opinions - I have never rejected their views on the basis of their race, as you have here.
No more dialogue Keith - once again, you have plainly demonstrated your attitude to other races.
Bye-eee
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:48 PM

Keith - ok.. you're the OP.. it's your thread... but weren't we supposed to be discussing the Labour party...??? 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 02:16 PM

Yes.
I was not going to pursue it any further either.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 16 - 05:46 PM

Trouble is that, for all his undoubted virtues, Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel: it's a King Charles's Head of his. As that character in Shaw's You Never Can Tell might have said: 'He thinks it isn't but it is'. Admittedly Israel was intro'd by Les in 3rd post: but just look at the truculent tone of Jim's instant rejoinder in the 4th, & the way the thread inevitably progressed thereafter!!

Didn't mean to maintain the drift. Just saying

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:12 PM

A prominent British Jew's explanation for the party's problems.

"Why the Labour Party Won't Confront British Muslim anti-Semitism

Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community."

Baroness Deech is an independent peer in the House of Lords. A lawyer, she was formerly Principal of St Anne's College Oxford, a governor of the BBC, chair of the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Authority and a trustee of the Rhodes Scholarships.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:38 PM

"Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel:"
This subject is about how Israel is using the accusation of 'Antisemitism' as a defence or their behaviour and how that has affected British politics - and all because the lady doesn't like.... The International Criminal Court.
A little difficult to ignore that fact and all your somewhat pretentious waffle really doesn't alter that fact.
You may be happy to see the Jewish people blamed for Israeli crimes - personally, I find it offensive enough to comment on, but then again, that's me.
Perhaps you would like to respond to the article I put up - no/
I paid a flying visit to Manchester last week - you wouldn't believe what the "self-hating Jews" (quote) are saying there.
Thought not.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:51 PM

I'm only quarter jew.. so I can only hate an arm or a leg...

But it's probably still enough to have won me a train ride to a n@zi 'work' camp...

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israeli govt & military,
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning any racism within the Labour party..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in criticising aspects of the Jewish & Muslim & Christian religions..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria
to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 01:55 PM

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

So I take it you are in agreement with the Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler, for stating that Israel funds ISIS and for calling for the "relocation" of Israelis.

Baroness Deech hits the regressive Left's nail on the head:

"Yes, there are right-wing anti-Semites and there are Holocaust deniers, but they have for long been treated as buffoons of no importance — which is true — and being of the "Right" they are not taken seriously, whereas to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

"it's curious how many anti-Zionists cannot refrain from bringing Hitler and Nazism into every discussion, as a way of coloring perceptions of Israel"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM

"I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israel"
Amen to all that PFR
"Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler"
As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:03 PM

"So I take it you are in agreement with ....."


Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..
You can also rightly or falsely continue to imply accusations of guilt by association..
or imagine any thing you like,
if you are that intent on undermining and discrediting your perceived opponents ..
You can also be completely wrong and talk as much as you like out your arse.. it's all entirely your prerogative....

Btw.. the word "zionist" has never existed in my vocabulary for any purpose...

This might even be the first time I have ever written it...????

.. and back on topic of crazy conspiracy theories..

"Israel funds ISIS" might not be totally too far fetched to be the basis of a pop culture fictional satirical paranoid political thriller movie...

Then again... neither would "Covert Mossad agents fermenting a proxy political war between Jews & Muslims on UK soil, irrespective of collateral damage"...

Add Russell Crowe, John Hurt, Helen Mirren, Benedict Cumberbatch.. and maybe Ridley Scott directing.....

Producers would be throwing $$$$$ to green light the project



Take your pick of conspiracies.. or imagine some more...

Any ideas can exist in an over fertile paranoid imagination..... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:24 PM

As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course



Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:

"That in itself is an anti-Semitic conclusion, one that collapses the ability to call out anti-Semitic comments by virtue of its 'Jewish' imprimatur. If one black person were to defend slavery would that make it acceptable? Would that person immediately be perceived as the spokesperson for all black people? Of course not. It is only when some renegade Jews can be found to attack Zionism and Jewish history that they become the representative Jewish voice — Gerald Kaufman, Norman Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, Gilad Atzmon — too many, regrettably, with their own reasons for what they say."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:33 PM

Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..

So, do you believe it's all staged hysteria whipped up by reactionary arseholes or not, I am confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:18 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

I consider reasonable possibilities / probabilities as objectively as I can based on available reliable/unreliable media sourced information..
and my own experiece and judgement.

Therefore, I consider it not impossible that 'unknown' agencies acting on their own agendas
may have quite possibly ignited the sparks of this recent strategic smear attack on Corbyn's leadership.

Feeding the frenzy of right wing media exaggerated outrage and hostile anti Corbyn Labour stooges.

As a consequence drawing in very credible commentators whose well intended comments & involvement
are fanning the flames and helping perpetrate a fake high profile scandal.
Way out of proportion than these issues deserve at this precise time so close to elections..

It's as if 'some people' 'somewhere' desperately need the UK public's minds to be more focused on Israel / Jew versus Muslim issues,
than our own immediate shared communities social welfare / Health / Education / etc / problems...????


Distract, Divide and Rule...

.. weird old world... innit...!!!??? 😕


Hopefully not too unrealistic an appraisal...???


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:35 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

Pardon me for taking your use of the word condemning in your statement I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn..... to mean that you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria rather than you are questioning that fact. The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 05:23 PM

"you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria

Yes.. that much to me is highly probable.. to such an extent I find it hard to disbelieve...

But not all those playing a part are reactionary arseholes..

Some are otherwise respectable credible figures, getting swept up in this hysterical smear campaign..
and opening themselves up to being manipulated by the arseholes
to be used to fit in with be seen to add support to their arshole agendas.....


"The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic"

My excuse is even simpler.. I'm just not very good at writing these days....

It's quarter of a century since I was a post grad student of 'concepts of belief and ideology' .. or some such clever dick humanities field of education..

.. analysis of media and propaganda being a key element...

But that was then....

Now I'm older, worn out by all the negativity and disappointments life throws out and rarely get much free quality time for stimulating thinking...

Though I still trust my judgement to smell attacks intended to destabilise a party
that exists to at least try to fight the odds stacked up against ordinary folks having a fair safe decent standard of living...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:36 PM

I'm a very simple man. You're an antisemite if you demonise a person because he is a Jew. You are not an antisemite because you criticise his country, his actions, his government or his dad. In the latter cases, you may well be wrong, but you are not being antisemitic. Israel wishes to be regarded as a Jewish state. Personally, I don't think that's wise, when a quarter of its population are not Jewish. Equally, I don't think it's wise to criticise "Israel." Far better to be specific and criticise the Israeli regime, specifying the actions it takes that you see as objectionable, which are manifold. If you state that Israel should be wiped off the map, you're a fool, because that is neither possible nor desirable, but it isn't an an antisemitic statement if you mean that you object to the creation of the state of Israel after WW2. If you mean that Jews should be wiped off the map, that's different. If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic. You are being antisemitic if you say that Jews are like Nazis. Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't think Ken Livingstone said anything that was technically wrong, but I do think that his timing was execrable. I sort of like Ken, but Christ knows what he was thinking of when he said what he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:49 PM

Ha, ha, ha Shaw defining what makes an antisemite for us.

What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

She must be an avid reader of Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

Er, I said, "Anyway, that's how I see it." And thanks for falling into the trap and revealing yourself to be that obnoxious anonymous Guest-troll that suddenly disappeared when the no-guest rule was brought in. Funny how you've suddenly reappeared, isn't it. I didn't quite expect it to work so quickly. Naturally, you'll deny it. Which is what cowards do. 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

"What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof.
"

I would hazard a guess that the Baroness knows f@ck all about the realities and families of ordinary hard working grass roots labour voters and supporters
living in provincial council estates like the one I grew up on... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:04 AM

Baroness Deech She was a member of the Jewish Leadership Council until 2010.

She is the daughter of the late historian and journalist, Josef Fraenkel (b. 1903, Ustrzyki Dolne, Poland) who fled Vienna and then Prague from the Nazis. Several other members of her family were murdered in Nazi concentration camps during World War II. Her first cousin is Maurice Frankel, Director of the UK Campaign for Freedom of Information.

She is not an inertial observer. Her remarks cited are over a year old. On the other hand, it is a fact that over the last day of so, Israeli F16s have been pounding Gaza - while those in Gaza have scarcely a bow and arrow to defend themselves with. The IDF summarily execute Palestinians including teenagers, manhandle women, and arrest children under 10. Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by a Palestinian. Israel continues to annex land, even past its war gains of 1967.

Do you realise that in 1910 around 90% of those living in the land that is now occupied by Israel were non-Jewish?

Finkelstein and Walker are quite right.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:09 AM

From 2013 - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/all-6-former-israeli-secret-service-chiefs-slam-occupation-of-palestine.html


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:10 AM

Today the 5th May - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:17 AM

Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition. http://www.antisem.eu/advisory-board/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 AM

"Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:"
Where does the Baroness's make the many thousand of Jews, Israelis and throughout the world, who have openly criticised Israeli policy, including high-ranking members of the Israeli security forces, soldiers, politicians, churchmen, scientists, writers, intellectuals, medical workers........ "Antisemitic".
To accuse anybody who criticises Israeli of being Antisemite is not only an Antisemitic act, but it puts the Jewish people as a whole in danger.
Israel's behavior in adopting this as a tactic to avoid being tries for war crimes and atrocities is a major contributor to the present rise in Antisemitism - it has also contributed to the fact that terrorists who target Jewish establishments and people have been told that the atrocities carried out by Israel are the fault of the Jews.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:15 AM

Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition (of antisemitism).

The only vested interest I see is that many are Jews.
Is that what you meant?

Steve,
If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic.

You are according to the EUMC working definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:48 AM

I don't care really, Keith. My view is that it is wrong-headed and unconstructive in the extreme to say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, basically because it isn't, and because the remark is likely to inflame. It is fairly likely to be said by someone who has antisemitic sentiments, but it is in itself antisemitic only if the context of the remark is that Israel acts that way because Israelis are Jews. Antisemitic means anti-Jew, not anti-what politicians happen to decide to do. That's my opinion, Keith, along with the reasoning. As ever, your opinion is not your own but that of a higher authority to whom you're appealing.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Can you not read, Keith - "Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/"

And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain. It's not rocket science. And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims - or even seek to defend Arabs or Muslims. It is you who is a racist.

As to offensive behaviour - I repeat - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:05 AM

And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims -

I would point out that I have never done any such thing.


And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain.


Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:15 AM

"I would point out that I have never done any such thing."
Worse than that
"Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site" and that aspect of the defintion has never been challenged.
Israel claims there is no currently accepted official definition of Antisemitism so blaming the Jews for Israeli terrorism seems a pretty fair one as a rule of thumb.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:00 AM

"Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?"

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith? Would it have helped had he said "those representatives of Israel's interests" or "those who were pro-Israel?" Your manner of debate is disingenuous and dishonest.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:44 AM

So it's ok and acceptable then to admire and promote the Baroness's smug dismissive disparaging prejudiced sweeping statements about 'the left'...

..whilst sweeping negative published statements putting down any other whole classification of diverse people
can justifiably get the culprit in a huge mess of trouble and condemnation in the news media....?????? 😕

funny old world... innit... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 07:12 AM

The Israeli Embassy in Ireland had been systematically targeting critics of Israel, on occasion, reaching the level of hysteria following particularly vicious acts of atrocity by its regime.
They have gleefully jumped on the Anti-Labour bandwagon and Israeli are now mounting a campaign to debunk Landin and Ronin's relatively non-confrontational article.
This interesting letter appeared in the Irish Times this morning:

Criticism of Israel v anti-Semitism
Sir, - The current crisis facing the Labour Party in the UK over Ken Livingstone's comments have brought anti-Semitism into focus.
In this light, the piece by David Landy and Ronit Lentin (Opinion, May 2nd) is a timely insight into the lengths the Israeli state will go to in order to tarnish critics of its policies.
Europe has a troubled record on anti-Semitism and thus it is vital that, on any occasion it manifests itself, it needs to be dealt with abruptly and forcibly. However the accusation of anti-Semitism, when abused, is a powerful one which can ruin a career and render solid arguments impotent.
In recent times the Israeli government and its supporters, under pressure from the success of the BDS (boycotts, divestment and sanctions) movement, have begun to throw the accusation of anti-Semitism liberally at anybody who dares question its policies and stands up for justice for the Palestinian people. Not only does this apply to non-Jews but also to the many Jews who are vocal critics of the Israeli state, such as the noted US academic Norman Finkelstein who lost many family members in the concentration camps.
This is a dangerous precedent as it not only diminishes the fight against anti-Semitism but also undermines rational arguments for a just and peaceful solution to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There is a serious vacuum in the peace process into which extremism is rushing on both sides. Creating an atmosphere whereby critical analysis of the behaviour of the Israeli state is subject to accusations of anti-Semitism does nothing to help find a secure future for Israel or Palestine.
-Yours, etc,
BARRY WALSH, Blackrock, Cork.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:02 AM

But there is antisemitism on the left. The campaign to exclude Israelis, and only Israelis, from the global academic, sporting, artistic and economic community is antisemitic. It singles out Israel for unique punishment and it finds all Israelis, and the Jews who are said to support them, guilty of the crimes, real or imagined, of their state. Huge and emotional hostility to Israel creates antisemitic discourse and fosters an institutional antisemitism of norms and practices in the left. This has been manifested recently in a number of clear examples.

    The election to leader of the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn:

       Presented a show on Press TV, Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel.
       Was Patron of the "Palestine Solidarity Campaign" which fights for a boycott of Israel and which tolerates antisemitism within its ranks.
       Says that Hamas and Hezbollah are dedicated to the good of the Palestinian people and to social and political justice.
       Jumped to the defence of antisemites, Raed Salah who indulged in medieval blood libel and Stephen Sizer who said that Israel was behind 9/11.
       Does not say anything when a 911 truther and associate of David Duke, who he's sharing a platform with, defends Palestinian suicide bombing.
       Continued to support "Deir Yassin Remembered" even when it was well known that it was run by a Holocaust Denier.
       Agreed to speak alongside Carlos Latuff, 2nd prize winner in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial cartoon competition.
       Agreed to speak alongside Azzam Tamimi, who said that he'd like to have been a suicide bomber against Israel.
       Addressed a LaRouche front organisation in Australia.
       Called for an official inquiry into "pro-Israel" influence in the Foreign Office.
       Celebrated the anniversary of the Iranian revolution at an event called to "commemorate the auspicious anniversary of the victory of the Islamic Revolution in Iran".

    Norman Finkelstein's cartoon depicting the ethnic cleansing of Israel and the 'transportation' of all Jews there to America was shared on Facebook by Naz Shah, who was to become a Labour MP and also by a number of Labour councillors including Blackburn mayor Salim Mulla, who also said that Israel was behind ISIS, and Ilyas Aziz who also posted images appearing to call for Jews to "stop drinking Gaza blood".

    Ken Livingstone:

       Said that Hitler supported Zionism. What better way to bait Jews than to compare them to Nazis?
       In 1982 the paper that Livingstone edited ran a cartoon depicting the Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a straight-arm salute, standing on a pile of skulls.
       Hosted Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi at City Hall. Qaradawi says that Hitler put the Jews in their place; he described the Holocaust as both exaggerated and also as divine punishment.
       On March 21 2012, a group of Jewish Labour supporters reported that at "various points in the discussion Ken used the words 'Zionist', 'Jewish' and 'Israeli', interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner." Livingstone told the group that Jews are rich and so are not likely anyway to vote Labour.
       Ken Livingstone was paid to present a programme on Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel, Press TV.
       Persistently put down a Jewish journalist by accusing him of being like a German war criminal.
    A co-chair of Oxford University Labour Club resigned, saying that a 'large proportion' of members had 'some kind of problem with Jews'. Jews were belittled by the epithet 'Zios' and taunted by the song: 'Bombs over Tel Aviv'.
    The election of Malia Bouattia as President of NUS. She supports the campaign of murder against Jewish civilians in Israel. She refers to a university with a strong Jewish society is a 'Zionist outpost'. She talks about "mainstream Zionist-led media outlets". She supports a boycott of Israel but of nowhere else.
    John Mann, Chair of the All-Party Group against Antisemitism: "I've had a number of highly precise threats of violence. I'm going to report this to the police. They are threatening me with physical assault — 'when I see you I will be punching you' and worse than that. This shows the mind-set of the mob."
    Muhammed Butt, who is the Lead for Equalities at London Councils, shared a clip on social media that appeared to show a young girl from the Palestinian Authority in a conflict with an Israeli soldier. The clip was captioned at the bottom with the words, "Israel is a terrorist state like ISIS."
    Shah Hussain, a Labour councillor in Burnley, tweeted at Israeli footballer Yossi Benayoun: "you are a complete and utter plonker, you and your country doing the same thing Hitler did to ur race in ww2".
    Khadim Hussain, a Labour councillor and a former Lord Mayor of Bradford, resigned from the party after sharing a Facebook post that said: "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists that were killed by Hitler."
    John McAuliffe: "The Holocaust has been the most useful political tool of the Zionist government in Israel to establish a financial racket in the West, whereby Israel receives an unlimited sum for the duration of its existence."
    Gerry Downing called for Marxists to 'address the Jewish question'.
    In 2011, Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman turned to a neighbour on the Commons benches as pro-Israel MP Louise Ellman rose to speak and muttered: 'Here we are, the Jews again'. He has a record of talking about the influence of 'Jewish millionaires' in UK politics and how the Israeli government exploits Holocaust guilt as justification for their murder of Palestinians.
    In 2014, Vicki Kirby, a Labour Parliamentary candidate, was warned by the party for posting antisemitic tweets. 'We invented Israel when saving them from Hitler, who now seems to be their teacher,' she wrote. She also asked why ISIS was not attacking the 'real oppressor', 'evil' Israel. She also tweeted that Jews have "big noses" and "slaughter the oppressed".
    In 2011 Labour MP Paul Flynn had said that Matthew Gould, Britain's first Jewish ambassador to Israel, had "divided loyalties".
    In 2003, Tam Dalyell, accused the Prime Minister Tony Blair of "being unduly influenced by a cabal of Jewish advisers".
    There are press reports that Labour has secretly suspended fifty more Labour members for issues connected with antisemitism.
    Labour's Murad Qureshi, who has already served 12 years on the London Assembly, re-tweeted the claim that Katie Hopkins "is proof positive you can get away with deeply offending anyone in this country as long as they're not Jewish."

It is wrong to say that there is no antisemitism in the Labour Party, and that this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by Jews, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

These are not random bad apples in a Labour barrel. They are important because they are manifestations of a way that many people, including the leader, thinks about Israel and the Jews who relate to Israel.

David Hirsh


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:55 AM

First of all - I haven't a clue who David Hirsh is - and why should I... ???.

Secondly it's not clear if any of that is you talking Bobad, or if it's entirely the words of Hirsh.

But most significantly, it actually serves to deepen my suspicions that
" this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.


It's seriously wrong that a bunch of organized vociferous intellectual pro Israeli zealots
may be so maliciously intent on discrediting and punishing the UK Labour Party.
Not giving a shit about the callous harm that will be caused to many thousands of ordinary hard pressed hard up Labour voting families....

Right I'll be away for the rest of the day taking my elderly mum to see a Doctor at an provincial health centre,
which is under resourced and under staffed, and at near crisis breaking point.
I expect we will be queuing for some time.

Not that the Baroness and Mr Hirsh probably care that much for our day to day living conditions.... 😫


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:09 AM

this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

David Hirsh (born 29 September 1967) is a Lecturer in Sociology at Goldsmiths College, University of London, and the founder of Engage, a campaign against academic boycotts of Israel.[1]

Hirsh is a graduate of City University, London. He holds an M.A. in Philosophy and Social Theory and a PhD from University of Warwick. He wrote his dissertation on Crimes Against Humanity and International Law.[2]

Hirsh won the Philip Abrams Prize for the best first book in sociology from the British Sociological Association in 2004 for his book Law Against Genocide: Cosmopolitan trials. The book, an argument concerning the significance of "cosmopolitan law", also contains a full account of the trial of Anthony Sawoniuk in Britain in 1999 for crimes committed as part of the Holocaust in Belarus in 1942.

As a student of contemporary antisemitism, Hirsh is known for coining the term "Livingstone Formulation," after its effective use by the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. In Hirsh's formulation, when an individual like Livingstone, with alleged antisemitic attitudes is confronted with this allegation, he immediately reverses the charge, accusing his accuser of "playing the antisemitic card" to stifle debate


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:43 AM

David Hirsch is an activist for Israeli policy, particicularly opposing the boycott of Israeli goods)
"But there is antisemitism on the left"
All those points have been answered and have nothing to do with The Left, which basically adherse to an anti-racist policy (exceptions to every shade of political opinion, of course)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:22 AM

Those are not the words of bobad. Google any selection from his post and you'll find that he's copied and pasted stuff from all over the place with just a bit of light editing. He has form, both as bobad and as the anonymous former guest who plagued any thread remotely connected to Israel/Palestine/Islam with bigotry and slurs. It's either copy and pasting a load of stuff or else it's the kind of sniping we've seen from him in this thread. The style, the content and the modus operandi are exactly the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:40 AM

From his posts


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith?


He said, "And the vested interest of the members of that board ..."

The board was made up of Jewish groups.
Those were the Jews he said were using it for "more influence."

Jim,
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site"

Does it?
It also remains on the EUMC site, which suggests it is still current.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:10 PM

"It also remains on the EUMC "
Don't get your point
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:28 PM

EUMC should not leave it on their site if it is not in force.
What was your point about some "Zionist" site?

Why are you and Steve making this personal against Bobad?
Can we not just discuss the issues like he does?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:38 PM

Bobad/anonymous ex-Guest does not "discuss issues," Keith. He copies and pastes and he snipes. If you disagree, give me an example of his "discussing issues," please. I'm not exactly surprised that you ally yourself with him, by the way. Speaks volumes, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:47 PM

Do you ever wonder professor why many people on this site have such a low opinion of you.

How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Shhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:50 PM

Steve, look at this post of Jim's.

Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM

He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation.

Why pick on Bobad?

He is using quotes to argue his case on the issues.
He does not make personal accusations against anyone.
Please stop doing it yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Rag,
How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Because thes are the groups that comprise the board.
All Jewish except the first one.

INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Richard said,
"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

What vested interest could the non-Jewish group have?
None.
He was accusing those Jewish groups of using the board to increase Jewish influence.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:04 PM

Are you really THAT thick ??

Don't bother to answer we already know the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:14 PM

More personal attack without reference to the issues.
Please stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 PM

The issue was mentioned in my previous post. Perhaps if you didn't try and twist other people words we wouldn't have this problem. The ball in this case is firmly in your court.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:06 PM

Keith, bobad calls people Jew haters. Open your eyes, please. No-one is picking on him. Just look at his posts in this thread. Bobad/Guest picks on anyone who even remotely criticises Israel or defends Palestinians. That is not debate, Keith. As I said, knowing you, it's hardly surprising that you side with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:37 PM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism, and blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world.

The Times of Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:16 PM

Yeah,sure. You're sussed. A period of silence from you would be nice. How about five years, Guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:27 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:48 AM

Wonderful irony - the tag team here, the one that supports Israel's expansionism and oppression of others - hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded - but loves it when the same newspaper supports baseless allegations of antisemitism (for example those against Jackie Walker - not my late wife of the same name, obvs, but a lifelong antiracist).

In the meantime, in the elections, Labour is doing FAR better than the fash, the MSM, the con-servatives, the bitterites and fellow travellers predicted.

Remember "Jeremy Corbyn must resign if Labour loses 200 seats (or 150 seats)"? Looks like Labour will lose 50 seats or fewer, and the bellwether seats in the UK (for example Crawley) show significant swings to Labour.

I'd prefer to wipe the con-servatives out (although I have no AK47, so I speak figuratively or electorally) but this looks very like steady true Labour progress under a true and honest man. This may well accelerate when the battlebus prosecutions really bite.

Must go and rest - I have strep throat again and it was NOT a good night. Back on the prescribed Class As.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:05 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:54 AM

Jim, I stand by my description of your post.
Do you deny that you merged a Wiki paste with your own text without quotes or accreditation?
If you do you are revealed as a liar.

Richard, you have chosen not to defend what appears to be an antisemitic claim that those board members had a "vested interest" in broadening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Such a statement would lead to your expulsion from Labour if you were a member.

Richard,
hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded

I think that is just me.
I do not hate the fact of ToI report, I just point out that there has been no change to reflect that on the EUMC site.

If it has been discarded, how would anyone know?
Few read the ToI after all.
I don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:27 AM

"Jim, I stand by my description of your post."
And I stand behind by my description of your behaviour - this has no place here - you want to make it on the relevant thread where I can treat it with the contempt it deserves, feel free - not behind my back elsewhere
You behaviour is beyond description
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:05 AM

Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about. You do not get to dictate that to me or anyone else. I have better things to do than walk into your silly booby traps. Bobad, together with his anonymous alter ego, is a long-standing troll here, as he has ably demonstrated in this thread. Were I to be an Israeli citizen I would absolutely hate to think that people like him were "on my side." Jim is spot on when he describes the attitudes of people like him as antisemitic. People in power who are like him simply put Jewish people, especially the ones in Israel, in harm's way. They are certainly not angling for the peace and security that the Jewish people and all the other people in the Middle East deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:44 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:35 PM

This was posted by my friend Fred Maroun, an Arab originally from Lebanon (for those who are Googling to see if he is a Jew in order to discredit him). Fred is an unapologetic supporter of Israel.

"This is heart-wrenching real-life story that says volumes about what is going on in the world today while the world's leaders look elsewhere - a growing and blind hatred that uses Israel to revive old anti-Semitisms. Please read this ESPECIALLY if you are not Jewish."

On becoming un-assimilated


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:53 PM

If you think this is astonishing, hang around at Mudcat for a while and you will not only see Zionism defined by non Jews but antisemitism as well. This the regressive Left justifying their bigotry.

"It is astonishing to see figures on the hard Left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists. The likes of Ken Livingstone and Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that it is purely political; that it is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist.

It is unclear why these people feel qualified to provide such an analysis of one of the axioms of Jewish belief. But let me be very clear. Their claims are a fiction. They are a wilful distortion of a noble and integral part of Judaism. Zionism is a belief in the right to Jewish self-determination in a land that has been at the centre of the Jewish world for more than 3,000 years. One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain."

Ken Livingstone and the hard Left are spreading the insidious virus of anti-Semitism: The Telegraph


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:36 PM

If I can be bothered googling, it's not to find out anyone's religion or race,
but to trust my own judgement to consider if they are reactionary right wing arseholes or not.

Whether they be under educated brutal street thugs, or upper class academic tossers in ivory towers..

A right wing arsehole, is a right wing arsehole..... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:48 PM

Absolute blinkered rubbish. Zionism and faith-based Judaism have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Why, "Zionists" can't even agree among themselves what "Zionism" actually means. And please don't assume that "non-Jews" are always totally blind as to what goes on. We are just as capable as watching and reading the news and looking up sources as anyone else. As ever, your post is full of bilious, hateful nonsense. And I note that you have failed to deny that you were the troll-Guest who called us Jew-haters. Cor, I'll bet you're dying to call us that again, aren't you. But what a giveaway that would be, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:50 PM

That was to bobad, aka anonymous Guest-coward, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:07 PM

Bobad - the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

At least mudcat single-issue religious/political zealots are only trying to bore us to death... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:31 PM

the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

By extremist zealots I presume you are referring to Islamist terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah, IS, Al Qaeda etc. I would have to agree with you on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:43 PM

Beware of the troll, pfr. Engage him and you're on a hiding to nothing, believe me. He's been playing us along for ages, but has only now been forced out of the woodwork by the new members-only rule. Until Max changed the rule, you didn't see bobad in these threads, just the vile anonymous Guest. Funny that he's suddenly crawled out, now that he can't be a Guest any more, innit?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:44 AM

"One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain"

I'm not sure you appreciate are many people who strongly support Great Britain but think the City of London is a major problem for the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 16 - 11:45 AM

well... London backfired on the tories aggressive divide and rule race campaign strategies... 😀


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:12 PM

Steve,
Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about.

And I can not stop you Steve, but I will still remind you when you break the rules by attacking the person instead of the issues they raise.
You have continued your personal attacks on Bobad.
Please stop.

Re the issue of antisemitism and the left, this Labour supporting Jew has some thoughtful comments.
Here is an extract, but please read her whole piece.

"There is principled opposition to Israeli policy on the Left. But there is also group-think, bald anti-Semitism – calling Jews Nazis; claiming Jews control the media; calling for Israel, in any form, to be destroyed as a legitimate state – and terrible ignorance, as Ken Livingstone displayed on Thursday.

The intensity of the loathing for Israel – the Jewish state – in parts of the far Left is curious. Where is the similar loathing for hosts of countries who observe no human rights whatsoever, including Israel's Arab neighbours? Say this and you will be accused of changing the subject.

It does not answer the question. To answer the question, you must travel to early Christian Europe: to the Christ-killing. When does anti-Zionism become anti-Semitism? For me, when you call Israel an 'illegitimate state'. I would love to know if Jeremy Corbyn believes, like Naz Shah, that Israel should not exist."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:46 PM

"Like too many Jewish Londoners, I know from personal experience how it feels to be discriminated against because of your faith. Shamefully, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are both on the rise in London. Synagogues have to hire private security guards – as do Jewish schools. It's simply not acceptable that this is happening in 21st century London." -- SADIQ KHAN


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:27 PM

Bobad under both his name and his anonymous alter ego has attacked and sniped at me and many others for years, Keith, including calling me a Jew-hater. I note your deafening silence when that happens. I don't call you a hypocrite, but you sometimes sound awfully like one.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:09 PM

Reely Weered: Steve Shaw take notice> I posted to thios thread, a fairly innocuous thing about antrisemtism not being peculiar to Labour, and bugger me it ain't here any more. Someone with An Agenda is "moderating" this forum (not surprising, since if I ndon't sign in IU get barred). The arseholes are in charge here!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:37 PM

You have to play the game to an extent, Paul. I have a feeling that a large number of my posts irritate the mods but not quite sufficiently enough. Lately, Joe has developed this thing about being "on-topic," as if we've ever managed to achieve that around here ever. 😂 That gives the mods the excuse to zap us unpopular types - unless, of course, we manage to sneak some on-topic point into our invective. Also, it's a very good idea to say "your point is disappointingly disingenuous and relatively remote from the truth" rather than "you're a bloody liar." That helps. I fear that more hints and tips from me at this juncture would only get up the mods' noses, so I'll desist for now. Suffice to say that I agree that antisemitism is not peculiar to Labour, in fact I think that there's far less of it writ large than the pro-Israel camp would have us believe. If you want to see antisemitism embedded, look no further than the Catholic Church, which has a lot to answer for when we look at the history of antisemitism over the last two ot three hundred years or more. They make today's Labour Party look like a collection of benign fluffy bunnies by comparison. Thankfully, the Church is successfully addressing the issue these days, not before time.

Let's see if this one survives...

You see, Paul? Annoying, but on-topic!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:56 PM

It is fairly silly to suggest that only Jews or Zionists should define Zionism.

It is also fairly silly to suggest that there is any more than a microscopic amount of antisemitism in the Labour party.

What is pretty obvious though is that a cry of "antisemite" goes up when anyone tries to defend the inhabitants (for about 2,000 years) of lands now claimed by the Israeli state from Israeli brutality. Those inhabitants try to defend themselves with sticks and stones while the IDF have F16s white phosphorus and if push comes to shove nuclear weapons.

On the other hand, the conservatives have been a byword for racism of all types for decades, at least since Enoch Powell, and still are judging by the attacks on Sadiq Kahn orchestrated by the Lizard of Oz.

Now the next thing is the MSM. the BBC in general, Kuenssberg in particular, and even papers that are purportedly left of centre have been consistently recycling conservative or bitterite propaganda for months (one example of which has been the "antisemitism" campaign). Despite this and however you spin it JC has done great things and True Labour now has an impressive slate, starting with four mayors, with fewer council seat losses than the con-servatives, a crushing majority in the London Assembly, and a respectable second place in Wales. Scotland will have to wait - the Blairities did so much damage up there that it may take years to heal. Imagine what could be done with fair media (or an effective new media platform).


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM

Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:59 AM

So basically then, everyone is 'antisemitic' to some extent
unless they publicly declare they agree the israeli govt & military regime are absolutely brilliant and the best regime ever...!!!??????? 😕


Btw... ever since i was a teenager, I've been extremely wary of, if not absolutely despised,
people who rely on the "if your're not with us, you're against us" mentality of belligerent cohersive argument... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:51 AM

So let's make a few important points:

(1) There is antisemitism in the Labour Party
)2) It ought not to be there, and has been allowed to creep in through laziness and political opportunism.
(3) It is no more prevalent than in society in general - it ought to be much less prevalent because members should be more aware.
(4) It is not confined to Corbyn supporters
(5) Criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic (it can be), and no community can be immune from criticism.
(6) Many Jews are not zionist - now and historically. They are not antisemitic either.
(7) To claim special status for any so- called racial group- whether negatively or positively- is racism
(8) If you justify any form of racism, you implicitly justify all - including against youself. Racism is indivisible.
(9) Remember that there is a powerful force operating in politics- spin. This "antisemitism" episode bears all the marks of a political ambush, in its timing and biased application. It's a bad idea to tie important principles to ephemeral events.

I would have thought it unnecessary to emphasise these points, but some people seem determined to try to make the issue simplistic. You will also note that the term "racism" is too restrictive, and we really need a different word to cover the whole complex of religion, ethnic history, DNA heritage, and cultural tradition. For example, Muslim Bosniacs are genetically indistinguishable from Christian Serbs. The only difference is their ancestors' cultural response to the 15th centuray OIttoman invasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:02 AM

PFR, no government is above criticism.
Unlike many countries including its neighbours, Israel allows dissent and criticism of its government in its free media and parliament.

There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:12 AM

An observation for attention of PFR -- Heavy sarcasm is usually counterproductive.

This pertinacious drift has reminded me of a conversation with my father in my teens, soon after the 1948 declaration of the state of Israel. He was an influential longtime political Zionist — back when that term simply applied to a specific political movement with specific aims & had not yet acquired its, comparatively recent, highly pejorative overtone of aggressive nationalism.

"You will have to realise" I said "that the Arabs are your Red Indians" (another term one could use then but now for some idiotic reason tabu & non-pc). "Nonsense," he replied, "they are nothing of the sort."

But I thought, and still think, I was right. One analogy -- settlements established where treaty agreements have previously stated that they wouldn't.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:13 AM

Well, the election is done and dusted, my feet and legs are recovering, and we won the London Mayor and kept our GLA rep in spite of the stupidity of some of those who, in the public eye, represent the Labour Party, and don't know when to shut up.

The media in the UK is so screwed and biased that all it takes is Labour representatives to say one word out of place they pounce upon it, sidelining the real issues that are impacting on people's lives day by day - Vilification of people with disabilities and long-term conditions, housing (particularly private rented, and attacks on social rented sector), NHS (pushing Junior Doctors to take industrial action), reductions on front-line local services, etc etc. Virtually all the things that matter ignored in the run-up.

Labour has a lot to do. We have a government that sneers at scrutiny, and hostile press. Our membership of EU is under threat - a threat that is led by those who do not want to be fettered by a consensus obligation towards social responsibility.

Anyway, I need a break from campaigning for a week or two.


We


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:04 AM

SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election.
Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses.
You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on."

It is not an indication of a conspiracy that the media refers to this.

You refer to a hostile press.
Most people do not read papers anymore, and anyway there is a left wing press but few people subscribe to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:45 AM

"Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

That is not antisemitism. The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition, even though many of its supporters are not Jews. Get it into your skull, Keith: antisemitism is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Attacking Jews for their political stance or machinations is not antisemitism.


There is nothing antisemetic in criticising Israel, unless you hold it to standards not expected of other states.

Israel has a specific responsibility apropos of its place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US. yes we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way. And Israel itself does not uphold the standards that it purports to expect from its neighbours. We can squabble about that 'til kingdom come, but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic. Attacking Israelis BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS is antisemitic. You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity. And it isn't a very honest agenda either.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 05:47 AM

Is never antisemitic, and that wasn't the only glitch. It's the small print.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:05 AM

Well, Keith, of course all Labour supporters would like it to have been better, and one would have to be blinkered not to recognise more needs to be done. But it is worth knowing Conservatives lost twice as many seats as Labour and that if you look at the first set of council elections after Blair and Cameron became leader, Corbyn has done better than either.

As always there are many ways to look at the set of results, but claims it was a disaster are a deliberate careful selection of viewpoint on someone's part.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:08 AM

MGM - sarcasm, counterproductive...???

A sad sense of humour born from despair at the stupidity of human existence....

At least i seem to have stirred you into posting a seriously interesting anecdote founded in your authentic personal historic perspective... 😎




As for Keith and his 'hidden' agenda...

I'm only 25% jew..

I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜


Not that it matters, any misguided fool can side and identify with aims of a hostile repressive ideological regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Btw.. Keith - "SPB, Labour has done much worse than previous leading opposition parties in mid term elections, presaging a very low result in the general election.
Labour should have made large gains and the government large losses.
You should also have expected a boost from a new leader, from a government civil war on Europe and a budget that is an ongoing fiasco, yet Labour barely "held on."


..so.. regarding predictions of how well or badly labour lead by Corbyn have done...

At this point in the early 21st Century, the world is such an entirely different mess of complex reactionary conditions...

.. and Corbyn does not exist in a vacuum...

Any sensible observer / participant should be very wary of making predictions...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 08:21 AM

oops.. "Corbyn should have done"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:43 AM

PFR -- Yay OK, see what you mean. But I try in the main to avoid sarcasm/irony/whevs: a notoriously double-edged weapon - however bitterly despair-inducing the provocation...

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 01:45 PM

That is not antisemitism.

That is your opinion Steve, but I think you are wrong.

. The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,
Can you support that assertion?
And, the groups on the EUMC board were not part of any pro-Israel lobby.

its (Israel's)place in the Middle East as the only Western nation there that is propped up by special deals with the West and a huge unconditional subsidy to its military by the US.

No it is not.
You must come up with some other reason to single out the only Jewish state.

we can apply standards we don't expect from nations we don't treat the same way.

EUMC says you are antisemites then Steve.

but the obstinate fact that that criticising Israel for its regime's actions are never antisemitic.

It is if you ignore other regimes with an worse record.
Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world?

You have an agenda, Keith, that prevents you from seeing this with any clarity.

Me, and the EU.

Pfr,

I haven't a clue about Keith's degree of jewishness on a sale from 0 - 100...??? 😜

I am a little shocked that you ask.
Is my ethnicity an issue?
(The answer is zero)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 PM

"on a sale from 0 - 100...???"....

sale...???

Seing as this is primarily a music website..

...Gimme a 'C'...!!!




Please don't be that shocked... it's not like I asked you to show us all your wedding tackle... 😜


Of course it don't matter... I said that before you did...


.. no big deal either way if we all get our cards out on the table or play with the royals and aces hidden up our sleeves....


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:22 PM

"Why else would you single out the only Jewish state in the world?"

Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position- when Putin invades Ukraine, there's no answer. Israel colonises occupied territories, so why shouldn't Russia?

Because no state should be "Jewish"- it's exactly as bad as being "Muslim" or for that matter "Aryan" and for the same reason. States should be non- religious and non- racist (and avoid other forms of discrimination too) and when they are either it's totally justified to oppose them.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:40 PM

Just telling me that you don't agree with two of my points, then failing to explain why, is a bit lame in a discussion forum, Keith, don't you think?   I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith. It is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Not because of their politics or what their regime gets up to. It's so simple. People like you and the pro-Israel lobby expend a great deal of energy dishonestly trying to expand that very simple definition. If I say that Jacob Zuma is a prick and that it's regrettable that so many ANC members support him, that does not make me a racist. If I say that Jacob Zuma was bound to fail because he's black, and managed to take so many black people with him, that's racist. Keith, you want a broader definition of antisemitism so that you can then use it to suppress debate about the evils of the Israeli regime, which you unconditionally support no matter what injustices they perpetrate on Palestinians. By the way, Keith, it wasn't my idea to call Israel a Jewish state. One quarter of the people who live in Israel are not Jews. To me, that makes Israel a state with a predominantly Jewish population, but not a Jewish state. To call it that is inaccurate at best and racist at worst. My view is that Israel receives special and privileged treatment from the West, therefore we should expect high standards of behaviour in return. As much of that aid is military, I think we should expect at the very least the quest for peace and security for its own people and for its neighbours, built on a position of strength, precisely the opposite of what actually happens. We can't expect anything as particular from countries that we don't aid in the same way, though we may hold them to certain international standards when it comes to human rights. In other words, Keith, there should be conditions attached to that massive aid. The fact that it doesn't happen in the case of Western aid to Israel is the very reason why, for decades, peace talks involving Israel have been a sham. Israel knows that it can do what it likes but the aid will keep going in. They never need to give a single inch. Now all that is my opinion. If you think a single word of it is antisemitic, you'd better give a clear explanation as to why you think so. And, for a change, let's hear what YOU think, not some higher authority. Think for yourself for a change, Keith. It would be quite refreshing.

Can I support my assertion that the pro-Israel lobby tries to broaden the definition of antisemitism in furtherance of its interests? Why yes, I can. This is from wiki, Keith.

Zunes [Professor of Politics at the University of San Francisco and specialist in Middle East politics] writes that "assaults on critics of Israeli policies have been more successful in limiting open debate, but this gagging censorship effect stems more from ignorance and liberal guilt than from any all-powerful Israel lobby." He goes on to explain that while "some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism", it is his opinion that some members of the Israel lobby cross the line by labeling intellectually honest critics of Israel as antisemitic. Zunes argues that the mainstream and conservative Jewish organizations have "created a climate of intimidation against many who speak out for peace and human rights or who support the Palestinians' right of self-determination." Zunes has been on the receiving end of this criticism himself "As a result of my opposition to US support for the Israeli government's policies of occupation, colonization and repression, I have been deliberately misquoted, subjected to slander and libel, and falsely accused of being "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorism"; my children have been harassed and my university's administration has been bombarded with calls for my dismissal."

In an opinion piece for The Guardian, Jimmy Carter wrote that mainstream American politics does not give equal time to the Palestinian side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that this is due at least in part to AIPAC. George Soros pointed out that there are risks associated with what was in his opinion a suppression of debate:

"I do not subscribe to the myths propagated by enemies of Israel and I am not blaming Jews for anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism predates the birth of Israel. Neither Israel's policies nor the critics of those policies should be held responsible for anti-Semitism. At the same time, I do believe that attitudes toward Israel are influenced by Israel's policies, and attitudes toward the Jewish community are influenced by the pro-Israel lobby's success in suppressing divergent views."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:27 PM

Ah yes, Jimmy Carter, the long time anti-Semite and Israel basher bought and paid for by the Saudis to parrot their racist, Jew hating agenda. It is no surprise to see Shaw quoting this despicable, senile old bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 AM

Steve,
I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith

No. You stated your opinion, and I stated the considered opinion of the 28 states of the European Union which flatly contradicts yours.

Your Wikle piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism"

Have you anything else that does?
It does say,"some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism"

Paul,

Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position


Nonsense.
There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:05 AM

"There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored. "

I'm sure you're right Keith. The occupation of South America by the Iberian powers since the 16th century, North America by (notably) the British and French from the seventeenth, and Australia by the British since the eighteenth spring to mind. Though it's possible that you have better examples to share?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:20 AM

Ireland 1170 to 1922?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:47 AM

I was honest enough not to edit the balance out of that passage, Keith. You have simply chosen to edit the relevant bits out in your head. Your modus operandi, of course. One more thing. I don't give a stuff about what you've dug up from some EU document you keep droning on about. We all know that you can't even read a simple sentence in a newspaper article without wilfully misinterpreting it, so that game isn't worth the candle. If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not. Of course, if I use that opinion to denigrate those people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, I may be. But I don't. It's really simple, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:04 AM

steve,
Your Wikie piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism")

My highlighting the "balance" does not change that.

If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not.

You are if you ignore worse offenders and always and only criticise Israel.
It means you are singling out Israel, and holding it to a different standard to its neighbours and enemies.

You need to explain why it is not antisemitc to single out Israel for attack while ignoring worse offenders.
If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?

Paul,
More recent occupations.
Tibet. Kashmir. Japanese islands occupied by Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:19 AM

"If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?"

In this instance possibly because the thread mentioned anti-Semitism in the first post .............. by yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:07 AM

This is Keith's thread, it's his football, and he can move the duffel coat and anorak goalposts any where and whenever he likes... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:31 AM

And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state," knowing as I do that at least a quarter of its citizens are not Jewish and that a good number of the rest do not adhere to the Jewish religion? Keith, the reason that you and Israel refer to Israel as the Jewish state is so that you and they can protest that we're attacking "the Jewish state," when all along we are attacking the Israeli regime's abuses towards the Palestinians. You want us to look antisemitic when we are no such thing. You are trying, dishonestly, to widen the meaning of antisemitism, which can only be attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. When we attack the actions of a state, or at least of its regime, we are doing so because we think that they are doing bad things. Not because they are Jewish. We can discuss other states' bad behaviour in a different context. We often do: in the "Rising" thread I attacked the US for its foreign policy abuses. But this thread revolves around questions of antisemitism, therefore it tends to be in large part about Israelis, Jews and people who may seem to oppose them. I don't see why I should have to balance my accusations against the Israeli regime and the Israel lobby by cataloguing the abuses of other nations every time just to keep you happy. You are the first to moan and groan about thread drift, remember? As for holding Israel to different standards, we treat them to a different, more privileged standard, especially in providing massive military aid. I'm saying that that should come with conditions attached. I also think we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia, and training their military, until they stop their human rights abuses. If I give a child a toy, only to find that he then uses it to beat his little sister over the head, I won't let him him keep the toy. Are you happy now?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:52 AM

It's like working with a nail in yer boot....


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:53 AM

Nice one Punkfolkrocker !!!! Very succinctly put.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:56 AM

International politics made easy: more schoolyard analogies...

Little Israel is a spoilt brat rich kid bully protected by even richer, bigger, older bullies.

The UK Labour party is a nice decent thoughtful considerate kid, maybe a bit too much of a do gooder,
who is pen pals with some poor kids who Israel is not friendly with and tends to pick on.
Israel and those poor kids keep getting in tit for tat scraps.

Israel does not like the UK Labour party being too friendly with those poor kids,
so has started to troll internet social media anonymously bullying the Labour party....

This will only end in tears.

Israel needs to be told off and sent to bed early without it's favourite pudding... 😜

[or some more appropriate telling off in the grown up real world....]


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state,"

Your whims are irrelevant to the actual facts Steve.

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:25 AM

From your earlier Wiki piece Steve,

"in his book, The Deadliest Lies, Abraham Foxman referred to the notion that the pro-Israel lobby is trying to censor criticism of Israel as a "canard."[85] Foxman writes that the Jewish community is capable of telling the difference between legitimate criticism of Israel "and the demonization, deligitization, and double standards employed against Israel that is either inherently anti-Semitic or generates an environment of anti-Semitism." Jonathan Rosenblum expressed similar thoughts: "Indeed, if there were an Israel lobby, and labeling all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic were its tactic, the steady drumbeat of criticism of Israel on elite campuses and in the elite press would be the clearest proof of its inefficacy."[86]

Alan Dershowitz wrote that he welcomes "reasoned, contextual and comparative criticism of Israeli policies and actions."[87] If one of the goals of the pro-Israel lobby was to censor criticism of Israel, Dershowitz writes, "it would prove that 'the Lobby' is a lot less powerful than the authors would have us believe."[87] Dershowitz himself, claims to have written several critical pieces on specific Israeli policies.[citation needed] Dershowitz disagrees with those who believe that the media is uncritical of Israel and cites the frequent New York Times editorials and even an editorial in The Jewish Daily Forward against some of Israel's more right of center policies as proof.[citation needed] Dershowitz also denies that any significant, mainstream leader in the American Jewish community equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:49 AM

Anyone anything to say about the Labour Party and its current problems including antisemitism.

Simple denial is not useful.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:52 AM

Could I suggest you cite your sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:06 PM

Who has denied the probability of a minority of racists in the labour party ?

But probably far fewer than in the other parties....
and wider society a whole...

I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...

Strategically timed for the recent elections.

Genuine racists within the Labour movement must be identified and dealt with.

.. but of course, if all this is really about the Labour party attracting an influx of new muslim supporters
it's certainly easier for the rabid detractors to accuse Labour of antisemitism
rather than publicly exposing themselves to be islamophobes.... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:45 PM

The soi-disant Jewish state (which is precisely what it is) is no such thing. It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state. It's absolutely clear why it would want to do so: anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews. A clear attempt to broaden the definition of antisemitism. Keith, you never have a thought of your own. You think you can prove points by telling us all the time what other people think, whether it's some EU committee, selected historians or Israeli politicians. Well I'm telling you what I think, and I think there is no justification on earth for Israel's calling itself the Jewish state, and I've given you my reason, which you can't refute, as it happens to be a fact. Israel already has a name, Israel. That'll do me. Let me ask you what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel. If you were asked where you came from, would you cheerfully reply "from Israel, the Jewish state, of course!"? A true Jewish state would contain hardly anyone except for Jews. No such country exists. And some of those non-Jews, or their ancestors at least, were living in the area long before it became Israel. All of a sudden, without being consulted, the ones who weren't actually expelled were told they now lived in a Jewish state. You really can't see this, can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:01 PM

.. like how it winds me up everytime I see a a high ranking tory or UKIP buffoon on TV declaring Britain is a christian nation upholding christian values..

..excuse me... I'm a 25% genetic jew 75% Scrumpyshire agnostic/atheist humanist punk hippy if you don't mind... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:36 PM

"The reason Britain's hard left refuses to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionism is because it utterly rejects the notion of Jewish peoplehood."

U.K. Labour's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 PM

Hmm. Click and you can get the convoluted one-liner, as in the post above, but you have to pay to read any more. Perhaps our poster would care to explain it to us carefully. Sorry, mate, you'll have to be bobad this time, not an anonymous sniping Guest...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:03 PM

Bobad / Keith - sorry but when I'm consumed with worry about my old mum's health care,
how long we wait for appointments, how reliable the diagnosis by an overtired and stressed Dr might be,
if the medication will be the correct one, how the hell we will cope if and when the dementia worsens
and we need to find any remaining affordable day care... etc.. etc.. etc..

.. under such circumstances.. the theoretical academic concerns on the finer points of anti-anything-ism will not be our families greatest priority...

Now, I'd hate to sound like a petty minded insular nationalist xenophobe..

... plenty enough real ones of those to point at in UKIP and the tories..

but our votes for the UK Labour Party are for fairer Health, social welfare and working conditions that are more immediately relevant to our needs...

I'd guess the same counts for most other ordinary Labour supporters...

We can't be oblivious to what is happening on the other side of the world, and how it might impact us at home,
but it can't be pragmatically as important to us as it is to the over vociferous zealots obsessed with making a meal of it for their own self absorbed ends...

Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:14 PM

'Trouble in Paradise'
From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

Netanyahu says army general's Holocaust remarks "unacceptable'
MARK WEISS
in Jerusalem
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu has launched a scathing attack on the eputy Israel Defence Forces (IDF) chief of staff Maj Gen Yair Golan for "disrespecting the memory of the Holocaust".
Gen Golan sparked controversy last week when, during a speech honouring Holocaust remembrance day, he said he identified trends in contemporary Israel similar to those in pre-war Europe.
"If there is something that frightens me about the memory of the Holocaust, it is seeing the abhorrent processes that took place in Europe, and Germany in particular, some 70, 80 or 90 years ago, and finding manifestations of these processes here among us in 2016, " he said.
Not a comparison
After a public outcry, the general clarified that he hadn't intended to compare Israel to Nazi Germany.
"I had no intention of making that comparison - it is absurd and unfounded, " Gen Golan said. "There was no intention of creating that impression or to criticise [Israel's] political echelon. "
However, Mr Netanyahu said Golan's comments were "unacceptable".
"The comparison implied is outrageous and baseless. These remarks should not have been made at all, and certainly at the time they were said. These remarks wrong Israeli society and disrespect the memory of the Holocaust. " Culture minister Miri Regev, from Mr Netanyahu's ruling Likud party, called on the general to resign, saying he had joined those who delegitimise' Israel.
Retired generals along with politicians came to the general's defence, most notably defence minister Moshe Ya'alon, who issued a statement in support of Golan, saying his words were twisted in an attempt to "politically damage the IDF and its officers".
Israel's opposition leader Yitzhak Herzog praised Gen Golan as a courageous commander. "The crazies who will now start screaming against him should know: this is what morality and responsibility sound like. "
Former IDF chief of staff Benny Gantz said: "Golan's statement was poignant and brave. Neither the left nor the right have a monopoly on ethics. "

"Simple denial is not useful."
It's served you well enough for as long as I can remember
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:47 PM

"Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????"

Probably because he didn't realise it wasn't free, and almost certainly because he hasn't read it. One thing that's clear about this bloke is that he debates by soundbite and sniping.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:58 PM

Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece.

Re Bobad's link, I was able to read the whole article earlier though not a subscriber. not sure what is going on.
The article is by a former Labour member who was on the NEC of the NUS in 2008.

Steve,
It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state.

That is how it was set up and that is what it is, notwithstanding your whim Steve.

anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews.

Ridiculous. Of course not.
Israel's policies are attacked every day in its parliament and by its free media.
Any country's policies can be attacked and of course that is not racism.

what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel.

You could make the same point about "Islamic states" and "Arab States."
Why don't you?
Why single out the Jewish state again?

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.

You are entitled to your whims Steve, but they are irrelevant to reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:01 PM

PFR
I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,


That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:04 PM

"Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece."
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour - they have accused all Jews who criticise as "self-haters".
They have accused Livingstone of Antisemitism on the same basis, even though there are top figures in the Israeli establishment of saying exactly the same thing - there always have been.
Former heads of Mossad accused the Israeli regime of acting as did the Nazis.
When those at the top say these things the accusation is validadted on both sides.
Not surprised I had to spell it out for you but I'm grateful for the opportunity to make that clear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:11 PM

Jim
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour -

Why Jim?
This is about the problems of the Labour Party!

(It is bollocks BTW but I will not discuss it here.)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:14 PM

You do not have to pay to read the Haaretz article if you arrive via Google.
Google "Labour anti semitic"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:16 PM

"That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.


I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals
they regard to be anti israeli...

Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections..... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:46 PM

"This is about the problems of the Labour Party!"
In your opinion maybe - it is about Israel using the accusation of Antisemitism against anybody who criticies their terrorism - inluding the Labour Party as far as I am concerned.
You are once again attempting to avoid the awkward bits by squaeling "thread drift".
We will debate this and every topic in whatever way we see fir - it's called 'freedom of speech' - look it up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:10 PM

Labour Party's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion

I left the U.K. Labour Party when I received my Green Card. I felt it was odd to continue to be part of a British political party when I had officially moved overseas for good. Yet, watching the party miserably fail to deal with anti-Semitism over the past ten days, and Ken Livingstone's unending obsession with Hitler and the Jews, took me back to my days on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students, an organization that has been a feeder to the front lines of left-wing national politics in Britain for decades.

In 2008, I was elected as one of the 27 national executive members of the NUS. As Sam Lebens, a friend and mentor who served there two years before me, wrote in the Forward, the NUS was often a tense place for Jewish students, especially when they tried to get the majority to accept that anti-Semitism should be taken seriously.

During my own year on the NEC the first Gaza war, Operation Cast Lead, took place. We debated motions about whether NUS would march with the Palestine Solidarity Campaign or condemn the usage of anti-Semitic imagery at the rallies. At another point during that year, I had to confront the hard left on the National Executive Committee about a leaflet that was being handed out that claimed that the Holocaust killed thousands of trade unionists, disabled people, gays and communists. While these groups were indeed victims, the pamphlet omitted one key group: Jews. Here we had dedicated anti-racists educating about the Holocaust while airbrushing out its Jewish victims.

In-between votes on theses issues, I would engage those who were part of the hard left — those who saw themselves as belonging to the same leftist faction as Ken Livingstone — on how they could possibly justify their anti-racist credentials when they were doing things that were so offensive to the Jewish community.

It all came down to their inability to understand why Jews were anything more than a religious group.

They felt that assigning Jews a peoplehood status would be to agree with the eugenics of the Nazis that Jews were "different" or "other;" that only the far-right fascists could see Jews in this way, rather than as just normal white folk. By reducing the Jewish experience into a religious dogma, the hard-left concurred, they were doing Jews a favor.

Jews did not have a place in the traditional liberation campaigns of the NUS. Being Jewish was not the same as being black, LGBTQ, female or disabled. Jews were hated by fascists; the hard left just wanted them to assimilate. According to the hard left in the NUS, being particularist about your Jewish ethnic background was to buy into a racism that was forced upon you.

The hard left was simply incapable of learning the lessons of why Jews felt that the enlightenment did not go their way (read: the Dreyfus affair) and insisted on "flattening" what it means to be a Jew into a solely religious experience.

The utter refusal of the hard left in Britain to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from the traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionist discourse stems from its rejection of Jews as a people. It is an unfortunate fact that Judaism comes from a time before census surveys began separating the "religion" box from the "ethnicity" box. In their worldview, Jewish peoplehood is a categorical error.

The core problem will not be solved until the hard left in Britain recognizes that the Jewish people are more than just a religious community. But the hard left is finding it hard to see that modern anti-Semitism exists beyond the far right, and in fact extends into its own territory.

Therefore, their obsession with Israel — and their inability to distinguish anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism — is based in their rejection of the concept of the Jewish people. The nation state was never a construct that the hard left liked in the first place. When coupled with a people that the hard left denies exists outside a religious context, Zionism becomes for them the embodiment of everything they oppose. The Jewish state reminds them that a Utopian view where a leftist emancipation will heal all wounds fails the test of history, and that demography and territory is something that oppressed people do aspire to.

The personalities within Britain's Labour Party who are being accused of having an anti-Semitism problem are of the same political bent as the hard left that I came into contact with during my time on the NEC of the NUS. It's therefore clear that Labour's anti-Semitism problem won't go away until the hard-left elements within the party accept that Jews are more than a religious group. It won't matter how many people are suspended from the party if its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, can't bring himself to say "anti-Semitism" without qualifying it alongside other forms of racism.

Without recognizing the particular challenge of modern anti-Semitism, the new inquiry into anti-Semitism that the Labour Party has launched will — I fear — achieve nothing.

Joel Braunold is the Executive Director of the Alliance for Middle East Peace. He served on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students in 2008.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:49 PM

.. well.. that seems to emphasise just how divorced from reality student politics still are...

Nothing seems to have changed much since I was a mature student back in the 1980s....

Nor my opinion that young relatively well off middle class students who adopt a fashionable leftist political identity
and later end up as careerist Labour party MPs and admin employees, or 'leftist' academics
have anything but a theoretical book learned concept of what the core values of Labour policies really mean,
and what families like mine experienced in factories and council estates.

.. and no, a gap year slumming with the chavs & oiks doesn't really count... 😜

Of course, students struggling to cope with tuition fees, and juggling studies with long hours of minimum wage part time jobs
deserve full consideration and respect...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Well there you have it. Thank you for publishing that without our having to pay, and proving once again that your obsession is seeking out the rantings of unbalanced, near-lunatics to prove that we're all Jew-haters if we ever raise the slightest criticism of Israel. I also note your total lack of comment about the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 06:51 PM

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state..."


Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself. Barely three-quarters of its citizens are Jews. Is this the third or the fourth time I've mentioned that rather inconvenient fact? What do YOU think, Keith? Do YOU think that a quarter of the population of a country should be excluded on racial grounds from its soi-disant definition? Yes or no, Keith? Can you answer just this one question on your own without resorting to what some document, declaration, guru or selected historian has said? Antisemitism is racist, yet, without irony, you are defending the right of a country to define itself solely on racial grounds, excluding millions of its people, turning them in effect (and in practice in many cases) into second-class citizens. That isn't very nice, Keith. I have heard it called racist...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:31 AM

The locution "Jewish state" in fact probably derives from the influential late C19 book called The Jewish State, in which Theodor Herzl, a non-observant Jewish reporter who had covered the Dreyfus trial, argued the necessity of such an entity, having been shocked by the widespread antisemitism revealed by the case of which he had previously been unaware. Herzl is thus widely regarded as the actual progenitor of the Zionist* movement.

≈M≈

*in the erstwhile merely political sense, rather than the oddly tendentious recent pejorative application, with its overtones of nationalistic belligerence. I belonged in my early teens, eg, to an organisation called the Federation of Zionist Youth, whose aim was simply to establish that state which ultimately came about when I was 16, and not to kill anyone or commit any other atrocities -- 'Zionism' then constituting a 'house', as the Good Book sez, of 'many mansions' [which we nowadays would call 'rooms'].


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 03:13 AM

Steve,
Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself.

Exactly not!
It was the UN that created israel as the "Jewish State."
A homeland for Jews.
Why do you deny the Jews alone the right to a state?

Yes there were some Arabs living there.
Should the Jews have expelled them all?
Instead they gave them citizenship and full citizenship rights.
Those Arabs who chose to leave in 1948 were denied citizenship by their Arab hosts, denied the right to settle, denied citizenship or employment rights, and forced into camps where their descendants live to this day.
The Arabs in the Jewish State are the lucky ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:25 AM

Indeed. Is it not a disgrace to the entire Arab world that an entity like Shatila Refugee Camp should still exist nearly 70 years after such Arabs as chose to leave then-Palestine were herded there by their refuge-hosts: a third or fourth generation of interned refugees of all things! — in glaring contrast to the number of Jewish immigrants to Israel since then who have been entirely integrated and absorbed! What is wrong with the Lebanese & their allies, to allow such an enormity to persist for so long, for purely [counterproductive, it might well be said] propaganda purposes!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:30 AM

Another Labour member speaks,
"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself: it is a denial of agency over our own ideas and methods of political organisation.

So far, the centrist plan to 'tackle antisemitism' in the Labour Party has amounted to a heavier reliance on internal party bureaucracy – more investigations and more powers to a 'Compliance Unit' to root out activists far beyond the pale of any democratic accountability.

But antisemitism is a problem with faulty ideas, not individuals; it corrupts our solidarity with foreign peoples and estrange one of the world's most historically oppressed minorities from the cause of labour. There are better ways to build internationalism – and better ways to 'criticise Israel'.

Labour's left flank has had some astounding victories over the past few months – now we need the intellectual integrity to be worthy of them. If we do not call out our own prejudices, then those who would return us to the footnotes of history will do so on our behalf.

They may very well succeed, and perhaps they would be right to try."

Mark Crawford is a postgraduate student at UCL and a member of the Labour Party
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/antisemitism-is-built-on-flawed-thinking-the-labour-left-can-call-it-out/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:09 AM

"Another Labour member speaks,"
The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.
Antisemitism is traditionally the domain of the Right
It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews, it was Industrial right-wing capitalism in Germany which herded six million Jews into the extermination chambers.
Unsubstantiated accusations
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:43 AM

It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews,

No, but the IRA cheered his armies for "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Britain and Empire stood alone in 19140.

The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.

Who is qualified to have an opinion, and why not a postgraduate of UCL?
Tanya Gold?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:03 AM

The term Jewish State was invented by arch-Zionist Theodot Herzl, as Michael said. It was pounced on with glee at the time of the Declaration in 1948 by Israel's founding fathers, who mentioned it five times in the document. The UN did not demur, but the term was not theirs. And you have not answered my very simple question yet, Keith. Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.

As for this gem:

"The Arabs in the Jewish state are the lucky ones."

Why, I suppose the house-boys who lived with their wives and kids in tiny shacks at the bottom of my uncles' gardens in Rhodesia were also "the lucky ones." And how "lucky" to be an Arab in Israel, if you've had your land and water supply stolen, your family olive groves slashed in half by an apartheid wall, when you're waiting for three days to get through a road block, to be stuck for months or years in an Israeli jail without charge. Gosh, I'm so jealous! Were that I should come by such good luck! Citizenship and full rights, eh? Well let's have a look at how far that has got the Arabs who are so lucky to live in Israel. Arab men twice as likely to be jobless. Arab women three times as likely. Arab men on half the pay of Jewish men. Far less funding for Arab schools leading to twice the Jewish dropout rate. Hardly any industrial investment in mainly-Arab areas. Buses that go around Arab areas instead of through them, making getting to work and school difficult. Israel almost at the bottom of OECD equality ratings because of this ghettoisation of Arab areas. Equality laws largely unenforced. All this is in a report funded by the Bank of Israel in 2014 called "The labour market of Israeli Arabs." I can't do links.

My uncles said that the house-boys were basically lazy and feckless, like the blacks in Rhodesia in general, and were lucky to have such kind employers. What's your excuse for why those lucky Arabs in Israel aren't even luckier, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Well I'm a member of the Labour Party, and not only was I a postgraduate student (once I'd got my degree from Imperial College) but I passed the postgrad course too and got the letters. That puts me one up on your source, Keith, but you don't bloody listen to me, do you? 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.


It was set up by the UN as a Jewish State and it remains the only one in the world, so yes.
Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland.
That the only Jewish State should be expunged from the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:51 AM

"Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland"
Nobody has ever claimed that here - it is Israeli expansionism that is the problem, and that is opposed by many Israeli and non-Israeli Jews alike - are you claiming they they believe Israel should be expunged from the map?

Israelis Against Settlements
Britain and Empire stood alone in 1940.
When it had no alternative
During the rise of "Herr Hitler" Britain was happy to let it happen and criminalised those who opposed fascism as "premature Anti Fascists".
Some right wing IRA members did have contact with the Nazis, but on the other hand, the British Monarch and his wife were supporters of the Nazis, as was the proprietor of the leading Bristish right-wing newspaper, the Daily Mail - support for Hitler in Britain lasted throughout the war.
DAily Mail's friendship with Herr Hitler

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:22 AM

I have said in these threads until I'm blue in the face that I oppose people who want to wipe Israel from the map, kill Jews because they are Jews or move Jews out of Israel. That is a bloody stupid post, Keith, and you know it. In fact, it's a troll post containing defamatory remarks. "Presumably," eh? On what grounds do you "presume" it? To complete the picture, you support a situation in which Arabs are turned into second-class citizens in their own country. You have failed to address any of the points I made. Do you or do you not justify the clear discrimination against Arabs in Israel that is staring you in the face? Did you know that the Israeli national anthem contains only strongly Zionist sentiment with reference to Jews only? Would you like to be an Israeli Arab soldier, singing that anthem, or with others singing it around you, Keith? Do you really understand the regime you so blindly and unconditionally support? It doesn't sound much like it from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:35 AM

"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself"

No one has quite got round to calling me an 'antisemite yet.. but seem to be slowly inching ever closer....


I was 18 in 1977 - the peak punk rock year - I, along with best mates, had studied Govt & Politics / Brit constitution at FE college..

We were already en route to becoming politicized towards socialism,
when at that time "Rock Against Racism" and the "Anti N@zi League"
emerged as popularist crusades that inspired and educated youth all around the nation;
crucially in backwater provincial towns like mine,
where the non white population was near zero
and jewish school mates had been segregated for morning assembly at our grammar school....

I moved to Leeds / Bradford at 19, it was an imense culture shock, but one I revelled in.

Rock against Racism and The 2 Tone multiracial ska movement was in full swing.

My generation has that foundation

It was a most culturally progressive of learning times for all teenagers involved in music and arts.

It is at my core and in my bones...

These pro Israeli academics that are being quoted here are theorising themselves so far up their own arseholes
they are a divisive menace to the UK multi cultural Labour movement... 😠


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:39 AM

Steve -- This is, as often averred, tho less so perhaps than whilome, "a Christian country"; in that it has its own Established Church, recognised as such by statute, whose senior clergy are ex officio members of the legislature, and whose membership is by statute enjoined on the country's Head Of State &c &c &c ···   The fact that actual practising churchgoing members of the Church of England are now a small minority does not in itself invalidate that designation.

In the sense that Judaism is its recognised state religion (tho notionally without prejudice to the rights of belief of any of its citizens who choose to follow other faiths, or none, in what is a free society), Israel remains a "Jewish state" by the statutory status within its establishment of the religion named...

It is admittedly an unfortunate fact that the principles of such a free society are not being practised as might be wished by many of the country's erstwhile supporters — who now, like me, find themselves unhappily unable to maintain that support in view of many of the actions of its current administration — does not of itself undo the principle on which the designation is based: any more, I reiterate, than the fact, that so few UK citizens are nowadays active churchgoers, prevents this from being accurately called "a Christian country", both by tradition & by various statutory enactments.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:46 AM

Apologies for the anacoluthon at the beginning of my 2nd para above; but I think my drift is clear enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:48 AM

3rd para, bugger·it!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:07 AM

Judaism is not the state religion of Israel. It doesn't have one. Anglicanism is not the state religion in the UK because it is not the religion of Scotland or Wales, which, last time I checked, are still in the UK. De facto may be another matter, of course. When discussing Israel it is important not to unconsciously conflate Judaism with Jewish ethnicity. In many regards that is the problem when it comes to these spats over antisemitism, which, to me, means attacks on Jews as an ethnic group BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. The right of Jews to be regarded as an ethnic entity, not a religious grouping, is to be respected in my view. Ethnicity within Christianity is a far more diffuse issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:33 AM

....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:42 AM

I can't make my mind up if Nationalists or Religious zealots are historically the worst blight on the peace and safety of mankind..

But when both pernicious traits are combined in in a big bunch of loud mouthed dogma blinded power mad sociopaths..

Then the world truly knows fear... 😱


.. just speaking generally.. not pointing at any one particular group of dangerous nutters...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:52 AM

Guardian correspondent. Extract here but please read the rest.

" Corbyn has developed some strange tic that compels him to say "and all forms of racism" every time he is obliged to condemn antisemitism, even though none of his old friends or MPs are being racist against anyone but the Jews. Diane Abbott insisted that the whole thing was a "smear", as though Livingstone was a figment of our collective imagination. When Livingstone announced that he couldn't possibly be antisemitic because he'd slept with Jewish women, the country wished he was. George Galloway, another old pal of Corbyn's, appeared with the inevitability of dry rot, insisting that this was "an entirely synthetic crisis", perhaps confusing the crisis with his hat. Others insist the whole thing is a plot against the Labour leader, which makes me wonder if perhaps all antisemitism is actually, secretly, about Corbyn. Honestly, you could have powered the National Grid with the amount of energy the left was expending on telling Britain's Jews they were wrong to feel grossed out by all this.

Like I said, no one ever thinks they're the bad guy.
So the new NUS president Malia Bouattia claims her stance against Zionism is purely political, even while using decrepit antisemitic tropes such as "mainstream Zionist-led media", which is about as political as a joke about hooked noses."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/hadley-freeman-labour-party-hitler-antisemitism


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:10 AM

.. yet more quotes about well off privileged careerist politicians and cloud cuckoo land student politics...

Seems the media and other storm in a teacup shit stirrers have forgotten that the millions of ordinary grass roots labour voting families have ever even existed... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:36 AM

ok.. I bit... I googled...

So that'll be Guardian correspondent Hadley Freeman, author of such weighty socio political tomes as..

"The Meaning of Sunglasses: A Guide to (Almost) All Things Fashionable"

"Be Awesome: Modern Life for Modern Ladies"........ 😬


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:53 AM

"I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."
then you are an Antisemite - the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.
You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
You are the only one making that assumption - nobody else.
The Israelis are entitled to a homeland - their own but not anybody else's
The Arabs have as much right to their land, including that confiscated by aggression, as the Israelis have.
A reminder of the real world outside of that created by Israeli propaganda
Ongoing settlement policy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:17 PM

"Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."

Not once, in all the thousands of posts in this forum, nor inside my brain, in all of my three score years and four, have I EVER expressed or alluded to the notion that Jews should not have their homeland. You betray once again your utter lack of any interpretive powers whatsoever. What I do say is that referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate. Further, it is likely to lead to discrimination against non-Jews. That discrimination certainly occurs, the name they give their state may have little to do with that, but it can't be helping. I'll not be accused of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

As for this:

"....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end."

Well there you are. Fight to the end. That's exactly the way to make ordinary Israelis feel happy and secure, isn't it, not to speak of the people who live in neighbouring states. No talk of making peace, of compromise, of getting round the table. Of course, as the military aid from the US is unconditional, they don't have to do any of that. But, by God, they can fight, fight, fight, right to the end, with all that mighty weaponry. And they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:58 PM

"...referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate," gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain.

Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish, which I dealt with some posts back. Is Spain not a Catholic country because a number of Anglicans have taken up residence there? Does the presence of a sizeable Druze minority stop Syria from being a Muslim state? England is a Christian country because it has an established church by statute & tradition. But that doesn't mean that everyone who lives in it has to be a member of that one establishment, does it? — or why do Bradford & Leicester look so different from so many other of our cities?

Similarly, Israel is a state with an official national religion, so it is a Jewish state, properly called, having been declared and established as such -- which doesn't in any way deprive members of any other religion {or none} domiciled there of citizenship.

I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point!

Thank you!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:15 PM

Am I suffering false memories...???

But back in the 70s going to Israel to spend a summer working in a kibbutz was seen as a really cool admirable thing for young Brit counter culture students to do...

... like in some regards back then Israel was being portrayed as progressive almost communist utopia...??? 😕


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:41 PM

Michael, keep up. Read any article on this matter penned by a Jewish person and they will tell you that the question of the Jewish state is one of ethnicity, not religion. There is no Christian ethnicity to speak of. As for "Muslim states," well they are just that only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state. You are falling into the usual pro-Israel trap of thinking that anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam. Well I'm not, any more than I'm a wholehearted supporter of Christianity (not much doubt where I stand on that, is there?)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:43 PM


Am I suffering false memories...???


No Pfr. Back then Israel was recognised as a David fighting for its very survival against a Goliath.

Jim,
then you are an Antisemite
Huh??
- the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.

There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored.
Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism.

You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of " war crime and ats of terror."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:46 PM

only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.

Except that you never have Steve!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:15 PM

Steve -- Do keep up right back 2U! Leaving aside that boring whiskery old "How far is it a religion or an ethnicity or an itsy·bitsy·ickle·bit of both?" bit, please, in particular, specify anything I have said which can possibly be interpreted as implying that I think that "anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam".

I do not think that; & I challenge you to quote back to me any statement of mine, on this thread or elsewhere, which could possibly be so construed by any person of reasonable intelligence.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:34 PM

"There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."

Define unfairly. Define worse crimes. Tell us when we ignore what "its enemies and other neighbours" do. Tell us why we should always be obliged to catalogue the wrongdoings of other nations when we are discussing what Israel does. Little Jimmy was being told off by his teacher for pushing a girl. He complained that it wasn't fair because his friend Peter was worse because he'd been looking up girls' skirts. Hands up those of us who think the teacher should have let Jimmy off just because he wasn't telling Peter off at the same time. If you want to discuss the worse crimes of the other Middle East nations, start a thread on it. You could start with Saudi Arabia, which perpetrates human rights abuses that make most other countries look like fluffy bunnies. And I have said so many times. No ignoring by me.


"Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism."

It isn't. I for one have criticised Hamas (not a state, but hey ho) many times. You haven't noticed because it would be inconvenient for you to notice. I think my most recent attack on Hamas may have been in the last 24 hours. Saudi Arabia, see above.

"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"

Define decent. The US? Would you like me to repeat my litany of foreign policy abuses I made the other day? The U.K., which colluded in the invasion of Iraq, helping to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and misery for millions? That kind of decent country? Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes? Should we ask the Lebanese children whose limbs were blown off by Israeli cluster bomblets left in hundreds of thousands all over their countryside about war crimes and acts of terror, or was that OK because their mums and dads were to blame? Or does collateral damage to children not count?   

"'only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.'

Except that you never have Steve!"

OK, tell me who qualifies, Keith. You know me. I hate religion and I'll take no prisoners! I hold no candle for Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc. Not a one of them. They have one thing in common with Israel: I feel sorry for the ordinary people who live in all of them for their lack of security and guaranteed peace. We in the West have fuelled their conflicts and propped up their dictators and we should be ashamed.

To be honest, I don't know why I bother with you. Your take on the Middle East is simplistic, one-sided and argued from a position of wilful ignorance, especially in relation to Israel, and you don't have any original thoughts, resorting only to higher authorities. You set out to confirm your prejudices and shun any information that gets in the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:38 PM

A civil response from you, Michael, might have received a riposte from me. Try again. I await.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:00 PM

Sorry, Steve; but can't identify what you find in the least uncivil in my last post addressed to you, whose tone seems not dissimilar to your last addressed to me --

"Michael, keep up. Read any article..." Sounds pretty peremptory to me; and the word 'please' appears nowhere within it -- tho it does in mine:- "please, in particular, specify anything I have said..."

What more do you want? I do not take kindly to being accused of incivility when I have clearly been considerably more civil in my response to you than you were to me in the post to which I was replying.

What on earth has got into you -- PLEASE!? Never seen such a blatant & pusillanimous cop·out! Surprised at you! You should be ashamed of yourself.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:41 PM

...gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain...

...Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish...

...I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point...


I have far better things to do than respond to this flowery nonsense. As it appears to be your birthday, why don't you toddle off and have another vat of wine.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:38 PM

Grr. I just realised that my latest denigration of Hamas was on another website, not here. Here's what I said.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza without supporting their ludicrous stated intent to wipe Israel off the map. I've vehemently opposed nuclear weapons all my life, but I've still voted for a party* that embraces them. I vehemently opposed the Iraq invasion but I still voted for the party that took us in, knowing that the alternative was far worse. If I lived in Northern Ireland I would vote for Sinn Fein, in spite of the bloody history of the IRA. That's how the world is. It is not antisemitic to say that I support Hamas in resisting the IDF abuses if I make it clear that I oppose the targeting of Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. To me, that's what antisemitism is, nothing else.

*Voted tactically in their favour, to be accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 16 - 12:32 AM

My birthday happens to be tomorrow.

I do not drink alcohol as has oft been stated here.

Can't get even the slightest thing right can you, Steve?, you poor little fellow!

Off this silly thread now so do not fash yersel' to rejoin.

Adieu...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 04:56 AM

"Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."
Which is happening where exactly, unless you are referring to say the crimes of the west against the Third World, which I'm sure you're not?
Israel is mounting a propaganda campaign in defence of its aggressive actions, acts of terror, crimes against humanity and expansionism by claiming that any criticism of those actions is "Anti-Semitic".
Nobody here has blamed "the Jews" for Israel's proven behaviour other than people like you who have consistently defended Israel's every action, every massacre, every aggressive invasion, and are now suggesting that someone who is criticising Israel is Antisemitic - you've done the same to me in the past.
Who here has ever suggested that the Jews should not have a homeland?
Nobody – then why make such a claim unless you have decided to be part of Israel's propaganda campaign?
This has now become a standard defence of Israeli terrorism and, as far as I am concerned, anybody who resorts to it is an Antisemite - welcome to the club.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 05:59 AM

Agreed, Jim. It's just upping the ante and potentially putting Jewish people, in Israel and elsewhere, in harm's way via polarisation. Now that's real antisemitism, Keith. Examine your conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 06:13 AM

Each time one of these people make these statements it's an attack on the Jewish People, many of whome are far more critical of Israel than we are.
Despicably, the Israeli authorities have branded all Jewish critics of their policy, "Self-hating Jews" about as low as you can sink I would have thought, but early days yet, I suppose.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:38 AM

An excellent letter in today's Guardian, signed by over 80 British Jews. Note the insistence on the separation of Zionism from religion. Spot on. And, Keith, as you always seem to want balance when we discuss Israel, how about the point in the letter about the serious anti-Muslim racism in our politics? Never seems to come up much, does it? In your perpetual attempts to make Jews sound like victims, what price your sense of unfairness and lack of balance now? These are British Jews calling for fairness, balance, and a sense of proportion with regard to history. Are they all misguided, Keith?

Anti-Zionism does not equate to antisemitism

In his Daily Telegraph article on which you report (Chief rabbi: Labour has severe problem with antisemitism, theguardian.com, 4 May), Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the antisemitism crisis engulfing Labour had "lifted the lid" on bigotry.
He joins in the sensationalist allegations of antisemitism in the Labour party, where the headlines' decibel level is in inverse proportion to the evidence supporting them. Ignoring the more serious anti-Muslim racism in electoral politics, Rabbi Mirvis attacks the Labour party by launching a defence of Zionism which turns it from a political ideology (that can be supported or opposed) into a religion that is beyond question. We British Jews reject this categorically.
Mirvis attacks as "antisemitic" those who separate Judaism from Zionism. Yet most Jews who perished in the Holocaust were indifferent to Zionism and many opposed it. In the last municipal elections in Europe's largest Jewish community, in Poland, just before the second world war, Poland's Jews voted overwhelmingly for the secular, anti-Zionist, socialists of the Bund, while Zionist parties got derisory votes. Is Rabbi Mirvis recasting those victims of the Holocaust posthumously as enemies of Judaism and therefore as antisemites?

Alexei Sayle, Leon Rosselson, Les Levidow, Michael Rosen, Mike Leigh, Miriam Margolyes, Moshe Machover, Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and 80 others (full list at gu.com/letters)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:57 AM

"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious, because it denies not only the right of the Jews to a state, but their very identity as a people. Very few anti-Zionists hold that Judaism as a religion should be eradicated. That distinction is, at the same time, their fig leaf and their weapon. By "tolerating" Judaism as a religion, they can try to shake off the designation of anti-Semitism, a curious attempt since they are trying to lecture the Jewish people about the nature (the negation, actually) of our own identity. The claim is that Judaism is a legitimate religion, but that the Jews are not a legitimate nation—just a collection of people of other nationalities who practice the religion of Judaism, who, therefore, are not entitled to a nation-state. This desire to dictate the parameters of Jewish identity to the Jewish people may be worse than traditional Christian anti-Semitism, or even than some forms of racial anti-Semitism, neither of which deny the Jews our place among the nations, hate us though they may."


Anti-Zionism Is Indeed a Form of anti-Semitism


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Can't pay, won't pay, won't read. And again, no comment from you. Not debate really is it, ex-Guest? And what bit you've posted is a pack of lies and distortions, all of which have already been addressed in the thread. I'll leave it brief.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Until this thread the words "anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism" have never been included in my vocabulary

I knew the words existed, but had, and still have no practical use for them.

Back out in the real world I will continue to rely on the word "Racism"

It's powerful in it's strength of meaning, and well understood.

Yes, I am aware fruitcake academics and activists will have prefab pre-scripted pejorative 'accusations'
prepared for anyone like me who is content and assured in remaining to consider anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism
as sub classifications within the umbrella heading "Racism"...

but sod 'em, that's their egocentric problem..
I've got more important issues & priorities to be concerned about.... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:06 AM

Can't open your link to read the full article Boo-boo, as I am not longer a subscriber to Haaretz, but I did find related article on the debate.
Describing criticism of Israeli policy as Antisemitic is Antisemitic - can't get around that one.
Einstein's Group letter directly suggesting the rise of Zionist Fascism was probably the earliest one linking the terms.
Jim Carroll

Jewish community must 'welcome' anti-Zionist, pro-BDS Jews, Beinart says– but Shavit says, Excommunicate them

Peter Beinart called on the Jewish community last week to admit anti-Zionist and pro-BDS Jews. These young Jews are supporting BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions of Israel) because they hear "the voice of Sinai," he said.
Ari Shavit, the Israeli author who has become a celebrity in American Jewish spaces, sharply contradicted Beinart. He said that these young Jews must be kept out of community spaces because BDS is an "evil, sophisticated" campaign that is filled with anti-Semitism.
The difference between the two men reflects differences over the definition of Judaism and what Jews owe to their community. Shavit described Judaism as support for Israel. Beinart described Judaism as an ancient and living religion that has often contained anti-Zionist strains.
The two writers spoke June 12 on an all-Zionist and mostly-right-wing panel about "What's Next for Israel?" at the 92nd Street Y, an organization that has censored Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices. They were introduced by Thomas Kaplan, a billionaire who has supported Israel and has investments that could profit from a war with Iran.
At the end of the discussion, Beinart challenged the hall filled with 500 mostly older folks (and surely almost all Jews, and paying $40 a head) to include anti-Zionists at the table:
"And the last thing I'll say and this is the most challenging I think maybe for most people, including for me: Our tent, our Jewish community, our proverbial Seder table, is going to have to include the Jewish kids who are not Zionists, including the Jewish kids who are involved in the BDS movement. Because Jewish kids are overrepresented in the BDS movement. You may find that frightening beyond belief, you may find it terrifying. And I understand why you do, but it's true."
Beinart then related an anecdote of a campus meeting of Students for Justice for Palestine where most of the group was Jewish, and continued:
"Every generation hears the voice of Sinai anew. This generation– one way it is hearing it makes us radically uncomfortable. We cannot afford to tell them that they are not welcome in Jewish spaces, because then we alienate them not only from Israel but from being Jews as well. We need to welcome them in, we need to argue with them, we need to challenge them, we need to be challenged by them. We may be entering– I take no pleasure in this, I find it a terrifying reality– We are entering, An era in which there is no longer going to be a Zionist consensus in the U.S. Especially if Israel continues on its current path. We will have to remain a Jewish community in that environment and we will have to be welcoming even to those people on the far left or the far right whose views we find deeply, deeply upsetting."
Shavit responded sharply. He disagreed with Beinart because of his experiences touring campuses in the 18 months since his book My Promised Land came out.
"I've been there. I've been listening to them," he said of the BDS supporters. "I'm for free discussion… but BDS in so many places has serious anti-Semitic dimensions….I've seen young liberal Jews in such a state because they are aware of that." (Many Jewish students have said that BDS makes them fearful.)
Shavit said what was needed was a new partnership between American Jews and Israeli Jews that would change Israel's image in the world. He called it the David challenge: "We have to convince ourselves and others that we are the David. We cannot be perceived as the Goliath."
How will Israel pull that off? If young American Jews and Israeli Jews worked to bring social justice in Israel and helped Palestine too, it would put Israel on "the right side of history" and show the world, "we are right and we stand for the right kind of things."
He called it a "Martin Luther King Zionism": because Martin Luther King fought for his people and for universal values too. "We are the universal tribe," Shavit explained.
American Jews will want to participate in this partnership because they face an "existential" challenge: they depend on Israel to maintain their Jewish identity. So this is the partnership:
"You help us survive there, we help you survive here."
(I must say here, I cannot imagine a more dispiriting view of religion and affiliation than Shavit's.)
Throughout the conversation, Beinart stood up for a view of Jewish religion that was based on ancient traditions and texts– and is therefore very conservative (and not my cup of tea)– but that is freed of the burden of Zionism. He said movingly that it upset him to see gleaming new Holocaust memorials in cities where the Jewish school doesn't have a gym or a science lab, and people can't afford to send their kids there without getting a second mortgage. Our community cares more about the dead than the young, he said. He said that the only place he can find translated Torah portions from Genesis and Exodus to give to his children is from ultra-Orthodox publishers in Borough Park, Brooklyn.
Shavit seemed to hold it over Beinart and Dan Senor, a second panelist, that they send their children to the Heschel school in New York. His children do not need a Jewish education to know that they are Jewish; no, that is "easy" for them.
"My 11 year old and 6 year old– they don't go to the shul in their life. Don't go to Heschel. They're Jewish." But American Jews "have to choose to be Jewish every day."
Really he was talking about Jewish nationality, and the definition of Israel as a Jewish state. Throughout his comments about Israeli political life, Shavit never included Palestinians as equal members of that society.
It was Beinart who stood up for universal rights. He said that Israel has a "security subcontractor in the West Bank" – the Palestinian Authority – "which allows them to pretend that the West Bank doesn't exist in the elections"—a point you hear at SJP meetings all the time. And he said that only conservatives really participate in the Israeli elections because Palestinians are the left and though they compose 20 percent of Israeli society they are written out of the governing coalitions (a point I have been making for many years).
He said that because older American Jews never speak to Palestinians, they have little idea why Israel's image is shifting. He knows why. The BDS movement is growing because young Americans are attracted by Palestinian-Americans' message. These advocates are "very impressive, very articulate, deeply American," and they don't believe in a Jewish state.
"I never met a Palestinian who believed that Israel's existence is anything but a tragedy and a disaster. Who in their fantasy world would have Israel not exist."
By deeply American, he said he meant that they don't have "thick accents," they don't see America as a foreign world. They are particularly effective with LGBT and non-white audiences. And when they say all they want is "one person, one vote" and equality, young people agree with them. Meanwhile, the pro-Israel coalition on campus is "Hillel and the college Republicans."
Beinart was repeatedly applauded for his remarks.
He struggles openly with his tribal affiliation. Shavit does not. The Israeli is surely an excellent writer who composes ideas in an elegant compelling manner. That is why his book did so well here, why he is feted by synagogues across the country. He is a storyteller who knows how to place himself in the edge of the frame; and he has been honest about the ethnic cleansing of Lydda during the Nakba, the chapter the New Yorker published.
But his politics left me cold, and will surely leave a lot of young Jews cold. They are essentially tribal politics. And the real point of his remarks was that the audience must maintain the Israel lobby so that Jews can carry on their society in Israel (because Israel utterly depends on a superpower's support).
Shavit began the evening by saluting the miracle of American Jewish life alongside the miracle that is Israel. He didn't know America before he came for the publication of his book, he said. That was a huge emotional event for him: the launching of his international career, with "my beloved friend" the editor of the New Yorker doing downfield blocking for him. He told a story of seeing his book being sold as a Hanukkah gift on the Upper West Side and being so moved that he sat down in a cafe to have a glass of wine and make "my first and last tweet."
Often that night his understanding of US cultural and political life struck me as self-involved and provincial. Certainly his view of religion is.
BTW, all the panelists at the Y wrung their hands over the young Jews. The hall was filled with older ones. A social revolution is taking place inside Jewish life, in which those who feel true solidarity with Palestinians are the primary movers. There can be no doubt of the truth of Beinart's statement, the era of Zionist consensus is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:39 AM

"You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no even accuses Israel of " war crime and acts of terror."
Where have I ever done that - I make a point of referring to The Israeli regime - you, on the other hand defend the unchallenged atrocities and war crimes of that regime without exception.
Parsonally, I don't give a shit what the politicians of your "decent democratic countries" condemn and don't condemn - many of them support and sell arms to terrorist states (another thing you have defended in the past) and countries like the U.S. have proved capable of committing war crimes and atrocities .
I accuse the Israeli regime of committing war crimes and atrocities - you say that is Antisemitic, which makes you an Antisemite.
By the way, your claim that equating Israeli behavior with Nazism is Antisemitic comes from the European definition which you have said is invalid and outdated.
You can't pick the bits you like as valid and reject the bits you don't
Oh - you Antisemites are silly!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 01:15 PM

We've had this "decent countries" malarkey from Keith before. Come on, give us a list of them, Keith. Start with your top twenty...

(Blimey, Keith's even got me trying to set Keithly booby traps now...)


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 02:53 PM

"Come on, give us a list of them, Keith."
Sorry to be critical Steve, but you're usually much quicker on the uptake than this - you really don't appear to have grasped Keith's rule-book.
When Israel commits an act of terror you wait to see which politician of which "decent country" (carefully vetted, of course) condemns it as a war crime.
If one does, they cease to be a "decent country" because they have condemned Israel, which makes them "Anti-Semitic".
If the politicians of no (carefully vetted) "decent country" condemns it, no matter what it is, (the massacre of women and children, the facilitating of the mass slaughter of 3.500 unarmd refugees, the use of chemical weapons of fragment missile like flechettes), it can't possibly be described as a war crime.
As Keith doesn't believe in Human Rights organisations such as Amnesty or mercy organisations such as Médecins Sans Frontières, you can't possible take their word that war crimes have been committed - ergo, Israel has never committed a war crime.   
Are you 'fick or what Steve - have you never read 'Catch 22'?
The fact that war crimes and acts of state terrorism are defined by what it is, not by which State's politicians says nothing about it seem to be beyond the comprehension of 'humanists' like Keith.
Wake up there boy!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 03:09 PM

Ah, shite, Jim - you may consider my botty well and truly smacked... 😳🔫


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:02 AM

Steve,
"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"
Define decent.


Shorthand for liberal democracies such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scandinavian and other EU states,.....
None accuse Israel of war crimes or acts of terror.

Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes?

Because they are unsubstantiated accusations made only by enemies of Israel.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

What Israeli aggression against Gaza. The aggression has always come from Hamas and Israel has just responded to it.

Steve, this is not a thread to rehash all those old arguments.
I acknowledge that it is legitimate to criticise Israel and any other state.

I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:11 AM

Once again Bobert's Haaretz article can be read for free if you arrive via Google.
Just Google part of the text in quotes.
I used
"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious,"

Worth a read because it argues the opposite case to Steve's Guardian piece.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 06:33 AM

It was not a "Guardian piece." It was a letter signed by over 80 British Jews. Kindly refrain from misrepresenting just for once. The person who referred to the article in Haaretz was bobad, not Bobert, who may not be overjoyed to be associated with it. You have my opinion already on the Haaretz article. It was biased, twisted, pro-Zionist nonsense of the worst kind. Even you should be able to come up with something more considered and challenging than that. The "points" it raises have all been dealt with in this thread.

"What Israeli aggression against Gaza" - you really are having a laugh, aren't you.

What's an "enemy of Israel," Keith? The same thing as a "critic of Israel," perhaps? How many countries have waged war on Israel lately? Well I'm most decidedly not an enemy of Israel, I'm making those accusations, so your assertion is woefully off the mark.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:21 AM

Israeli aggression against Gaza.

This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:29 AM

"I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites."

thank you Keith.. because as we all should know by now, appearances can be deceptive...

And can most certainly be intentionally distorted, manipulated, misconstrued, misrepresented, etc.. etc..

That's the cynical nature of media & politics, and a propaganda strategy for malicious opponents with hostile agendas... 😫


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 09:26 AM

"This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ."

Well, ex-Guest, how can we help it if you never read the news? 😂😂😂

It's quite interesting to do some Google-doodling about the attitudes of some of Keith's decent and democratic countries towards the Israeli regime's aggression towards Palestinians. Try things like Sweden's/France's attitude towards Israel, or just "other nations' attitudes towards Israel." Go on, have an investigative Google for an entertaining half hour, like I did this morning. There's tons of stuff out there to have you shifting uncomfortably from one buttock to the other, Keith and the article formerly known as Guest. Cor, fancy the Swedes, for example, publicly suspecting the regime of extrajudicial killings (nice euphemism, eh?) Last time I looked, Sweden was a decent and democratic country. Of course, you may prefer to stay in your comfort zone. I'm sure you'll find succour in some more Haaretz articles, or on the Jewish Chronicle website, or on AIPAC's website. Keep 'em coming, guys, but just remember that some of us are more than up for confronting unpalatable truths, unlike you deniers.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:29 AM

The extra judicial killing concern was raised by Sweden's Foreign Mister, Margot Wallstrom.
Some Swedish politicians said this about her.

"The statement provoked a strong reaction across the political spectrum with deputy foreign minister Tzipi Hotovely declaring Wallström persona non grata, stating that her Swedish colleague was "de facto supporting" terrorism via "a terrible combination of foolishness and diplomatic stupidity."

Science, Technology and Space Minister Ofir Akunis went further, suggesting that, instead, there should be an investigation into "how a woman who so bluntly hates Israel was elected and still holds the role of foreign minister of Sweden."

Swedish Government,
"Economic relations between Sweden and Israel are in a positive stage of development and we see a clear increase in the numbers of business-related visits and inquires.

The Swedish Government actively promotes such contacts. Lately Israel has received several delegations from Sweden with businessmen and senior officials to develop co-operation in a wide range of fields, including hi-tech, IT, telecommunications, biotech, environmental technology, infrastructure and consumer goods.

We want to develop trade – in both directions "

"Embassy of Israel, Stockholm
As part of the Ministry of Industry and Trade and in close association with the Israel Export Institute, the Commercial Departments can offer a variety of free services to companies and individuals wishing to trade between Israel and the Nordic countries."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns. Thanks for the perfect illustration. Now we know why US presidents daren't take on the Israeli regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 05:17 AM

"Some Swedish politicians said this about her."
And Wiki says this about her
A truely remarkable woman with a track record to prove it, no matter what some politicians say about her.
Tzipi Hotovely (Hebrew: ציפי חוטובלי‎, born 2 December 1978) is an Israeli politician who currently serves as a member of the Knesset for the Likud, and as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2015.
Hotovely is a doctorate student at the Faculty of Law in Tel Aviv University. Hotovely practises Orthodox Judaism and is a self-described "religious rightwinger"
Wiki
Ofir Akuni is an extremist Israeli right-wing politician.
Akunis is opposed to relinquishing the Occupied Territories and supports settlement in all parts of the country "with no disparity between the Golan, the Galil, the Negev or Yehuda and Shomron". Akunis believes that Israel has the historical and moral right to the territory under Israeli control, according to the teachings of Jabotinsky, "All Mine".
Wiki
Another attempt to smear opponents of Israel by the extreme right.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:21 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns.

Surely, Keith, you must know by now that Jews control everything in the world, even Swedish government officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM

bobad - you may think you are being cleverly ironic / sarcastic...

.. and whilst genuine neo n@zi halfwits would agree with you without any doubt in their thick thug skulls;


..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

Israeli intelligence agencies have never [allegedly] been too restrained in taking their covert fight onto the soil of other friendly nations...???


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:07 AM

..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..


And so another one outs himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:28 AM

Sweden...???

reminds me...

A comical aspect of the Israeli propaganda machine...

In Sweden last night at the semi final of the Eurovision Song Contest.
The Israeli entry [not a bad young singer, hugely expensive stage costume & presentation, but dull song]
somehow gained enough votes to win a place in the finals..

A member of the jubilant Israeli team barged forward through the line up of finalists to the front,
desperately waving his full size flag centre stage at the cameras, almost knocking the Swedish star presenter out of the way..

Kinda illustrates how Israel, tiny nation that it is, desperately seeks attention on the world stage.
For instance hijacking the run up to the recent UK elections
to make it all about antisemitic 'hard left' Labour critics of The Israeli Regime...????

[it's the weekend - time to have fun with entertaining conspiracy theories... 😜 ]


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:33 AM

"And so another one outs himself."

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!! 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:36 AM

The Independant, 22 hours ago,

"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan

He added: "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

"In an article for The Observer, Mr Khan had already criticised Mr Corbyn's electoral strategy, writing: "It should never be about 'picking sides', [or] a 'them-or-us' attitude,"

"Our aim should be to unite people from all backgrounds as a broad and welcoming tent – not to divide and rule.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-failing-to-call-out-antisemitism-in-labour-sadiq-khan-a7025696.html


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:40 AM

Pfr please note, that although I said "appeared antisemitic" Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic,"


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:42 AM

Labour Party Suspends Member for Accusing Jews of 'Genocide' Against British

In the latest in a long series of suspensions of members of the British Labour Party for anti-Semitic comments, the party has suspended Musabbir Ali, of the Tower Hamlets branch of the party in East London "pending an investigation," the London Jewish Chronicle reported Thursday.

Ali's suspension followed his tweet of a blatantly anti-Semitic blogpost that alleged that Jews have committed genocide against the British people. Britain's Jewish News website reported that the suspicion followed a complaint on the matter to the Jewish Labour Movement, which is affiliated with the British Labour Party.

Ali is said to have posted a link to the blogpost, entitled "Timeline Of The Jewish Genocide Of The British People," on Tuesday. The timeline runs from the year 1066 to the present. Among the distortions of history in the blogpost is a description of 1933, the year in which the Nazis took power in Germany, stating: "International Jewry declared all-out war on the German People and swear to destroy them after they threw off the shackles of Jewish oppression."

Among the British leaders which the blogpost dubs "Jewish puppets" are 17th century British leader Oliver Cromwell and 20th century British prime ministers, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Edward Heath and Tony Blair, the Jewish Chronicle said. The newspaper added that after more than 100 people were killed in the Turkish capital, Ankara, in a terrorist attack in October, Ali tweeted: "I think it's must be work evil #Israeli."

Haaretz


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:49 AM

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!!

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:59 AM

Tech Query: Keith - I've been having problems all week with this thread opening very slowly and frequently crashing half way.
It's a pain in the arse trying to follow and keep up with this discussion.
As you are in the UK as well [not abroad or using a VPN - as others often might be]
are you having similar problems ?

I just assumed it's mudcat server problems again...???

=================================================================

ok back on topic...

Sadiq Khan - he's high in the public spotlight, and presumably not a big fan of Corbyn.
And uniquely for a UK muslim, in such a position of power he has to tread extra carefully on multi cultural issues...

fair play to him... and well done for winning London.


Musabbir Ali - sounds like a complete fukwit arsehole,
if all that is true then he needs to feel the full clout of Labour Party discipline...

Sad fact of life, all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics.... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:07 AM

all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics....

Some more than others it would appear.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:10 AM

The Israel regime and its supporters are continuing to equate criticism of Israel with Antisemitism to the extent that the former European definition has now been called into question.
I was quite interested to read the American State Department's definition, part of which reads:

"The fifth trend is the blurring of the lines between What I hear from our diplomatic missions, and from non-governmental organizations alike, is that this happens easily and often. I want to be clear – legitimate criticism of policies of the State of Israel is not anti-Semitism. We do record huge increases in anti-Semitic acts whenever there are hostilities in the Middle East. This form of anti-Semitism is more difficult for many to identify. But if all Jews are held responsible for the decisions of the sovereign State of Israel, this is not objecting to a policy – this is hatred of the collective Jew or anti-Semitism. "
So in fact the Israeli regime are still guilty of Antisemitism in claiming that all criticism o Israel is Antisemitic - in other wortds, it is The Jews who are committing the atrocities and war crimes, not the Israeli regime.
They have certainly blurred the lines between opposition to the policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, and deliberately so.
The piece also includes:
"The sixth trend is the growing nationalistic movements which target "the other" – be they immigrants, or religious and ethnic minorities – in the name of protecting the identity and "purity" of nations"
which is, of course, what Israel is in the process of doing in ejecting Palestinians and replecing them with Israeli settler, thereby creating an Apartheid State (an accusation widely made by Israeli Jews and Jews elsewhere throughout the world.
It seem, despite its herclean efforts of propaganda, Israel cannot avoid being recognised as what is it a terrorist state defending its terrorism by blaming The Jewish People as a whole.
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:12 AM

oh yeah.... Keith - ""Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""

Errrmmm.. don't you remember you initially posted that Khan quote
with the magic big difference word "if" at the start of it...

ie..""If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""......


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:13 PM

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?

And Keith, if you want to do a really useful piece of calling out, how's about calling out your mate bobad, name-caller-in-chief (which you profess not to like) and posting secretly under multiple identities, a form of dishonesty (which you profess not to like) - or is it OK because he thinks we're all antisemites? I've called him out already, but it doesn't get me anywhere...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:23 PM

Pfr, yes Mudcat is not running well recently for me either.

Khan says "if" but he does call it, so he clearly accepts it.

"If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

Steve,

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?


I do not speak for Khan, but I assume he means that the response has been inadequate. No expulsions yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:40 PM

So who should be expelled for antisemitism, Keith, and can you give precise details of what they've done to deserve expulsion? Keith...?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:05 PM

I see 2 subtexts to Khan's statement..

1.. He's a muslim being very cautiously diplomatic in needing to appease and not alienate various factions of supporters and potential enemies..

1.5.. He is a successful politician after all... 😜


2.. He's politically ambitious and basking in new found power and glory,
and making clear his position on Corbyn, whatever may happen regarding Labour Leadership rancour in the coming months..

I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..
though, as a muslim he's bound to be over sensitive to insinuations and accusations, and inference of 'guilt by association'
that will no doubt continuously be pointing his way.. ???


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:23 PM

I think politically ambitious nails it, pfr. Where would we be without 'em! Interesting that people like Keith find solace in lefties like him, innit, when they happen to "say the right thing." I think we call it expediency on their part.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 AM


I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..


No-one is suggesting that.
Many people inside and outside the party are saying that there is a problem, and an enquiry is being set up.
Khan seems to think that it is self evidently a fact.

You two seem to be in denial that there is any issue at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:24 AM

I am not in denial at all. I'm asking you to tell me who has not been outed who hasn't already been dealt with, who in your opinion is antisemitic in the Labour Party and what's your evidence, and who do you think should be expelled? You know summat, Keith, you're very good at asking us "challenging questions" but you appear to be congenitally incapable of answering them yourself. I asked you a question and instead of answering it you've twisted it into a "Steve's in denial" fib. My opinion is as follows, Keith. As in any larger organisation, there may be antisemitism in the Labour Party. However, it is not endemic or institutionalised - there is no evidence for that. The woman who suggested that Israel should be moved to the US is a bloody idiot, but it was not an antisemitic remark. She did not say that JEWS should be ethnically-cleansed out of Israel. Now that WOULD have been antisemitic. Ken Livingstone was a bloody fool for saying what he did, but what he said was technically accurate and not antisemitic and the remark was not intended to demonise or disadvantage Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. They both deserve a good bollocking and should be made to promise to not make such remarks again, at the very least.

Be honest, Keith. You are a sycophantic supporter of Israel and its regime. They can do no wrong in your eyes. Like that regime and its ardent backers, you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion in order to wrong-foot your political enemies and divert attention from the gross misdeeds of the Israeli regime. I get that you support Israel. As a matter of fact, I support all the citizens of Israel regardless of ethnicity or religion and wish them peace, prosperity and security, and anyone who says Israel should be wiped off the map is insane. But I do not support their regime. You take the whole package, without trying to think for yourself. That's great, but don't pretend to come here with your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda. That just makes you a mouthpiece. As we know, a mouthpiece is too easily separated from the brain six inches above it.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:44 AM

I may not know much about the Labour party, but Khan and all those other members do.
Khan says, "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out."

Ask him who those "somebodies" are who are "clearly anti-semetic" and if they are do you want them in the membership?

you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion

No I did not. It was pounced on by other Labour members and became a national issue.

your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda.

This is not about israel, but on threads that are I have put Israel's side of the argument.
Why does that make you angry?
Why should not both sides be heard?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 09:47 AM

Keith - it's a long time since I was a technically accurate writer of 'correct' English..
but even I can tell you are wrongly understanding Khan's isolated statement..

He is first and foremost a politician - it is a politician's statement in the idiomatic coded language of Politicians...

Khan is acutely aware that every word he utters in public will be over scrutinised without mercy.

He is carefully appearing to please everyone who might be listening..

He is addressing the public at a time of intense strategic media magnified discrediting of the Labour party.

This is the context for his statement.

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...

It's your misperception that he is appealing to what you think you are reading into it...


..and btw.. I am absolutely not in denial..

I am too cautiously objective and rigorously self disciplined a thinker to allow that to happen on any issue....

please remember and respect that !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:38 PM

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...


He DOES call it out, and he accuses Corbyn of "failing to call it out."
That was in the Indy headline and the text,
"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:09 PM

Keith - obviously Khan can't pop up here to explain precisely what he meant...

sorry...

But we could waste all our time and attention applying the intellectual tools of critical analysis to the 'meaning'
of quickly dashed off headlines by hack reporters working to pressing deadlines...


PS.. I appreciate it's one of your key debating methods,
but I personally try my best to NEVER DO emphatic assertions of opinion or conjecture as statements of fact..

Which I was long ago educated to consider as not a particularly intelligent or honest approach to discussion
That's a discipline ingrained in me since Grammar School,
and reinforced by the nature of my long time ago cultural ideology field of degree and post grad studies...


NOTE: but I do understand how that is a valuable tool for propaganda and cynical amoral dogmatic political activists... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:48 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things, Keith. And of course it became a national issue, not because the people who made it into an issue give a stuff about antisemitism or the Jews but because they gleefully pounced on a perceived split in the Labour Party, a time-honoured ploy by the media.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:58 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,
It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,


That is why I asked whither the party?
Also, it is hard not to conclude that among the hard left there is an issue about anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:10 PM

among the hard left

I find the term "regressive left" as coined by Maajid Nawaz, a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, to better describe this subset of "leftists" who give the progressive left a bad name.

Regressive left


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:25 PM

Well he must be very proud that people like you appreciate his road to Damascus conversion, I'm sure. To think, but a few years ago you might have been branding him a murderous Jew-hater (I hope you don't mind if I borrow your language), yet now he's your guru. Well I never! Now would you be so kind as give me a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:26 PM

"regressive left"


It's actually no more than a fashionable new buzz word to beat up an element of the left that has always existed or been imagined to exist to a greater extent....

In the 1980s the popular reactionary media insult employed to marginalise, discredit, and divide, fringe factions within Labour
was "The Looney Left"...

Older mudcatters may remember the equivalent term back in the 1960s and 50s...???


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:31 PM

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

Is a perfect example of pandering to Islamists.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:52 PM

a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...

I guess you've never heard of Jeremy Corbyn who counts Islamist terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah among his friends or George "I glorify the Hizbollah national resistance movement, and I glorify the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah." Galloway.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 04:05 PM

I would also place into the category of "regressive left" those who while posing as being critical of all religions reflexively scream "Islamophobe" at anyone who is critical of Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 PM

I just reflexively mumble "Arsehole" at at any and all fanatics and extremists.... 😩


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:34 PM

Quite right, pfr. Note the total lack of intellectual depth in any of bobad/anonymous coward-Guest's posts in this thread. Received wisdom, right-wing websites, blind Islamophobia, lies, pro-Zionist claptrap, kneejerk cries of antisemitism, sniping, bitterness. Apart from that, isn't he wonderful. He's probably lost the location of his hole (the one he needs to crawl back into, not the other one).

And, mods, that's me exercising free speech. Take a peek at every post of bobad's in this thread, then tell me who's the villain (you might like to take into account that some of us at least don't need to resort to secret multiple identities).


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:35 PM

Ah, ha, ha.....mods, mods help, save me, I'm losing the battle of wits.

Boy, have I got your number. Just like a schoolyard bully you can dish it out but you can't take it.

Go hide in your safe place behind the mods now so you won't be traumatized.

Suckhole Shaw....... what a freaking baby.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:06 PM

Which one of you is losing the battle of wits? The anonymous Guest who called us Jew-haters, pretending that we "should attack the issue, not the man" whilst simultaneously calling us names if we so much as ever so slightly demurred from agreement with the Israeli regime's activities? I don't need to hide in any safe place, unlike you. Why, two minutes after reading this, you could be ringing my house phone. That's how much I hide. I'm Steve Shaw, proudly in the open and living here in north Cornwall, and always have been. As a matter of fact, the mods love you far more than they love me. I've been threatened for being a pain in the arse, yet they leave you alone even though you post under secret multiple identities, post bigotry as a matter of routine and call people vile names. Boy, you haven't got my number, but I have both yours, and schoolyard bullies love to hide behind a wall of anonymity, if they can get away with it. Which you can't, any more. Go on, deny it. I note that you haven't, despite a number of challenges from me, which speaks volumes. You know you can't, because I'm not the only person around here who knows who you were and are. And mods, you should know from his ISP who he is. As I say always, mods, it's your gig. I shrug in your direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:09 PM

This is fun - Saturday night - Watching Eurovision Song Contest - a one night in a year festival of diversity and togetherness...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:25 PM

Just for once, my two favourite songs of the whole evening came first and second, though I might just have edged it in favour of the Aussie lass. Plenty of fun as usual along with plenty of buttock-clenching. And you wouldn't think that the UK is the nation that produced the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Animals, Dusty, Amy Winehouse...😢


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:28 PM

I see the customary intellectual dishonesty of the small coterie of far right posters here. I identified the exact nature of the self interest that I mentioned. It did not involve conflating any of the four distinct things - Israel, Zionism, Judaism, or being Jewish. That was ignored. I have shown conclusively that the cited definition of "antisemitism" has been abandoned and is wrong. That was ignored too. It is also by now wholly clear that Khan will do or say anything at all to undermine Corbyn, with an eye to his own main chance and taking the Labour party back to the failed and dishonest Blairite philosophy. Yet the intellectually dishonest use his statements as a statement of Labour policy and at the same time ignore their plain meanings.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:59 PM

"One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all. Anti-Zionism is merely the new anti-Semitism. The old classic anti-Semitism declared that equal rights belong to all individuals within the society, except the Jews. The new anti-Semitism says that the right to establish and maintain an independent national sovereign state is the prerogative of all nations, so long as they happen not to be Jewish."

Abba Eban


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:31 PM

Lovely man, Eban. He defended Israel's part in the Six Day War by lying about it. He worked with that arch-dove Ben Gurion. He dissed the Palestinians, saying that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" after they backed out of a totally bogus round of "peace talks" in 1973. Oh yes, bobad The Anonymous Guest. You choose your sources so carefully, don't you? Not what honest people do exactly, is it? But how would you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:50 PM

Ah yes, the opinion of someone who admits to being a member of a party teeming with anti-semites. We wouldn't expect different.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Of course you wouldn't. Care to name names of members of my party who are antisemitic? If we're teeming, it should be easy enough. Don't forget to give reasons, though. There are laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:27 PM

Maybe you should target The Telegraph with your inane threats: "Labour has secretly suspended 50 members for anti-Semitic and racist comments".

Oh yeah, I forgot, this is nothing but a conspiracy by the Jewish controlled media against the glorious leader who counts Jew hating terrorist groups among his friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:57 PM

How pathetic is that, bobad/Guest-liar. You dig up a two-week-old article in a arch-right-wing paper that STILL doesn't manage to name names. Total tired old news. You're a desperado, aren't you. And a double-dealing, multiple-identity desperado at that. God knows why you're still here, but that isn't my choice, unfortunately. Name those names if you dare. Piss or get off the pot. You bring Mudcat into disrepute and you bring every Jew on earth into disrepute, which is as wicked as it gets. I bet you couldn't find a single one who would come here and back you up.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:09 PM

I bet you couldn't find a single one who would come here and back you up.

All the Jewish members that I knew, except for MGM, have left Mudcat precisely because of the stench generated by people like you and your fellow regressive left travellers. Their noses are keen.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:47 PM

Name them.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:54 PM

Piss off.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:09 PM

No, really. You've gone on and on about these antisemites but you daren't name a single one. You don't know any, do you? And that is not tempting you to name Mudcat members, before you go off half-cock. Labour Party antisemites if you don't mind, please. If you don't want to respond with names, and as I can see that you're getting all frustrated and sweary, I don't mind if you don't answer. I'm like that, you know. Generous to those with delusions of adequacy.

By the way, have you decided to come clean and post only as bobad from now on? Make an honest man of yourself at long last? Cor, that new rule's a real pisser, no? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:23 PM

I guess you haven't been following the news. Try Googling "labour party anti semites". Plenty of names in the articles.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:32 PM

Bobad - errrmmm... just so I understand exactly what's making you so apoplectic...

Are you only this enraged by the thought of left wing antisemites...???

Are the innumerable truly nasty real ones on the right not that much bother to you...???? 😕


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:39 PM

Nope, sorry. YOU name them please. Hey, don't forget to give us your sources! Come on now. We thought you were a coward when you were posting as the anonymous name-calling Guest. Surely you don't want to confirm the impression now that poor ol' bobad has been outed? Names, old chap, names! Those Labour Party antisemites if you please! The Telegraph daren't do it, and now YOU want us to dig up your partisan websites. Sod that, old bean. Name names! Be a devil! Be like me! 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 09:14 PM

Oh, go and play your silly little games with your fellow party members, I'm sure they'll be happy to play with you. Off with you now sad, little man.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 09:20 PM

So, no names then! 💤 Nighty night! Don't let the sword of truth bite! 🗡🗡🗡


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:08 AM

I do not know the names of any Labour antisemites, but Khan clearly does.
He has accused Corbyn of failing to call them out.
Corbyn has at least set up an enquiry into the issue of antisemitism in the party, so he is not in complete denial.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:54 AM

So if you don't know any, why did you start this thread? Let me guess: you and bobad have seen an opportunity, anything will do, to dish the dirt on the Labour Party. Never mind that you haven't got a single name to support the antisemitism smear. I've given you the searingly honest answer, that, like any large organisation with thousands of members, there will be the occasional rotten apple and a few people who open their mouths before engaging their brains. But antisemitism is neither endemic nor institutionalised in the Labour Party, and is opposed by the leadership. Now put up or shut up. Either you can name names, and if you're right you can do that fearlessly, or you're just interested in joining the shit-stirrers like the Mayor of London and others of the Blairite tendency (two-time losers who handed us a decade of Toryism, lest we forget) in doing what they can to undermine Jeremy Corbyn at every opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:15 AM

Steve, are you not aware that a number of members have been suspended over this?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:33 AM

The Militant,

"BY JONATHAN SILBERMAN
LONDON — A rise of Jew-hatred as the capitalist crisis deepens, combined with years of the left's repetition of anti-Semitic slander — often under the guise of supporting the Palestinian struggle — is fueling turmoil in the British Labour Party."

"But anti-Semitism is no "side issue." And Labour's turmoil is not the product of a smear campaign, but of its toleration over years of anti-Semitic slanders and the promotion of open Jew-haters, along with demonization of Israel and campaigns for Israel's destruction.

Shah shared a Facebook posting in 2014 that read, "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict — Relocate Israel into United States." The posting stated the "transportation cost" would be less than three years' worth of Washington's support for Israeli defense spending."

" Left-wing papers, including Morning Star, Socialist Worker and Socialist, have joined the denial chorus."
http://www.themilitant.com/2016/8020/802050.html


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:17 AM

Well, that may be your kind of paper, but it ain't mine. Ridiculous and desperate, Keith. Jesus, what will you resort to next. The article you link to is full of unsubstantiated smears and out-of-context remarks, even calling Livingstone's remarks antisemitic, which they are clearly not. "Promotion of open Jew-haters and campaigns for Israel's destruction" my arse. You chose to quote those bits, Keith, so presumably you think they have substance. So can you name me an open Jew-hater or two in the Labour Party, or give me details of a Labour campaign to destroy Israel? And yes, I am aware of suspensions. But are they antisemites, Keith? Can you tell us which ones (names, please), and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description? Clearly you're a scholar of these things. I want to hear what YOU say, Keith, not some disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper, your Islamophobic trolling ally or some wacky ultra-left nitwits. Or are you just going to remain a member of the smear brigade? Stop looking for dirt for a minute, Keith, and just for once confront these challenges to your credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:33 AM

Keith, don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide. The legitimate sources are only those that see the charge of anti semitism as a conspiracy by the Jew controlled media, banks and governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:06 AM

Bobad, dear boy, do look at Keith's "source," then tell us truthfully whether it's your kind of thing. Please do. Google yer man's name. I did! Laughable. Written by a bloke who wants a Cuban-style revolution in the UK. Che's numero uno fan. He's also, well, rather a little too pro-Palestinian for your taste, I imagine. You OK with that? Always worth a quick bit of research before you wade in, eh? Up the revolution, comrade! 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:08 AM

Incidentally, Guest-misreader, I did focus closely on the content Keith quoted. Have a look. Or maybe go to Specsavers first!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:25 AM

The Militant is no "disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper!"
It is an international socialist magazine linked to the Socialist Workers Party.

Can you tell us which ones (names, please)
No.
and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description?
No.
Clearly you're a scholar of these things.
No, but there is plenty of testimony from people who are, that this is a real issue, and I do not believe it is all a conspiracy against lefties.

You clearly do believe that, and you have closed your mind to the obvious truth of it, so let's leave it there.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

"don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide"


So basically then, it's unfair for us to query the validity of propaganda being used by enemies to discredit your 'own side'...???

.. so goes the logic of unreasonable embittered old fanatical dogmatists.... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

Corbyn is so determined to have an independent investigation into the charges of anti semitism in his party that he appointed a labour party member as chairman of the inquiry.....lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:45 AM

" our 'own side' " - oops.. hit submit instead of preview


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:02 AM

From an NPR interview with Jonathan Freedland, columnist for The Guardian on the question of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

"So I've been really clear that criticism of Israel is completely fine. And as you say, I've dished it out myself and do. So that's not what's being discussed here. Rather, what's being discussed are two things. First is criticism of Israel that comes dressed in the garb of traditional anti-Jewish language or imagery that would be familiar to any anti-Semite long before there even was an Israel, so notions of Jewish conspiracy or Jewish control of the media or Jewish responsibility for all the world's problems and misfortunes. So that's one form.

And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate. And there was always a tradition of anti-Zionism among Jews too. But nevertheless is framed in such a way that is applying to Israel a standard (ph) that would not and is not applied to any other country. And there too by making this exception of Jews saying they are the only people in the world who are not allowed the right of self-determination, then too there can be a question of whether a line has been crossed. So I think those are the two areas. And in this recent controversy about figures within the Labour Party, it has been both of those that have come up."

NPR


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:50 AM

There is the world as it objectively 'is'.

There is the world as it is 'understood' and theorised by multivarious opposing fundamentalist factions.

This is a world of endless conflict and cruelty........

There are the millions of ordinary families who only long for a peaceful productive safe and secure life for themselves and their future generations.....

These are always the first to suffer
when old men blinded by hatred and vengeance unleash their young indoctrinated testosterone & adrenaline crazed fighters for the cause....


... apart from all that, it's quite a nice sunny day here in south west england.. 😎

Got to go get a train to sort out the problems caused by overworked Drs and clinic admin workers
who have left my old mum with incorrect medications for the next 4 weeks.. 😣

No Labour party will ever attain perfection, but at least I'd hope the NHS would be in better shape
under a Labour Govt inspired by Corbyn's positive social welfare legacy...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:29 AM

You still haven't been to Specsavers, have you, cowardly-trolling-outed-ex-anonymous Guest? Jonathan Freedland is explaining to the interviewer WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED. He is not saying that the Labour Party is antisemitic. He says what I've said from the start, that there may be a few rotten apples. As for who should investigate, well who would you suggest? The police? An all-party committee? No crime has been committed as far as we know. So who? Come along, I want to know! Oops, sorry, I forgot that neither you nor Keith are ever capable of answering questions or backing up your assertions. I like Jonathan Freedland a lot. But when he says "And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate" I profoundly disagree with him. Israel is a reality that has been with us for almost seventy years and no-one has the right to suggest that we dismantle it. The state of Israel consists of millions of Jewish, Arab and neither-of-the-above families who are largely blameless for the political situation. Our aim should be to make it a secure, peaceful and fair homeland for everyone who lives there. The policies of the latest and previous regimes militate against that, sadly. I don't care what my allies in these threads think about that, to me that discussion is destructive and should be off the agenda. I want the Israeli regime to behave much better, to stop its racism towards Palestinians and to have its military aid made conditional on that. Once that happens, the threats from outside will cease. Everyone has an interest in peace, security and prosperity that trumps war and human rights abuse every time. These constant, perverted attempts by supporters of Israel to turn Jewish people back into victims are deplorable and they get in the way of a peaceful solution. They actually hurt the people they are supposed to be supporting. And you two are the worst offenders on that score here by a country mile. And at least one of you calls US "Jew-haters."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 02:41 PM

I always back my assertions Steve.
If I have missed one, please point it out.

My only case here is that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

It came to my attention because it was a leading story in all the broadcast media at the time.
I do not believe it is all a conspiracy.
You believe what you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:13 PM

You are anti-Labour and you are very much pro-Israel, a sycophant in fact. You've made a Big Thing of this in this forum because you want to have an opportunistic dig at the Labour leadership, just like the Israeli regime, their lackies in the media, bitter Blairites and the right-wing press over here. Nothing seems so sweet to you right-wingers as an apparent split in the Labour Party and you are going to make hay. As with any major organisation, Labour, the Conservatives, UKIP, the Beeb, the executives of multinationals, the Catholic Church, the NHS, the armed forces, the police, you name it, there are likely to be a few extremely misguided souls who may either harbour antisemitic sentiments or operate their vocal cords on the matter while their brains are still at home. When you sat in your pew last Sunday, you can bet your life that a bloody good smattering of those around you hated Jews/Muslims/blacks/immigrants. Maybe all four in some cases. Christian religions have been institutionally antisemitic for centuries. Let's hear you having a go at THEM, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM

That would be lackeys. My spelling was lacking accuracy as I was proceeding lackadaisically with too much alacrity, alas and alack.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:27 PM

That reminds me, repeats of "The Good Old Days" have started on BBC4...

We're watching 2 from the early 70s on catch up

Georgia Brown is excellent.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:51 PM

The term "Georgia Brown" has never been the same for me since I heard Sweet Georgia Brown played on YouTube by a chugging tractor...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:59 AM

I did not make a big thing of this Steve, and I am not impressed with your resorting to nasty personal attack instead of discussion.


My only case here was that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

Vent your spleen on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:11 AM

You made a Thread of it, at a time of heightened Media boosted Labour bashing...

Which is an open invite for all sorts of reactionary anti labour nutcakes to vent their spleen and the entire contents of their bowels and intestines..

Honestly, that's not exactly a tiny thing now... is it...???? 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:35 AM

PFR.....do you not think that you are way off beam here?

Keith's remarks were correct, this is really about an internal war in the Labour Party turn your guns on them. They really are a heap of shit......Ok I gave Jeremy Credit for trying to change things, but how can we respect someone who has spent his life railing against the "undemocratic" EU and now stands with Osbourne and Cameron to save it.
This should be a "red line" for him if anything is.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Ake - have I ever said I expect Corbyn to be the next Labour Prime Minister...

I was as surprised as anyone else that he won the leadership contest, and immediately stated at the time
the blairites would be out for any opportunistic excuse to undermine and discard him...

That much is an obvious negative divisive undercurrent in the Labour party

Whether that amounts to an 'internal war' or just antagonistic business as usual for cynical egotist careerist politicians..
it's open for debate...

[Personally, I think Corbyn is too much of a quiet tolerant gent with the bitterites..
He should have been tougher and kicked some of the ring leaders out..]

What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,
and anyone else who fancies a chance to get a sly kick in to Labours head, to force as big a destabilising division as they could get away with
in the run up to elections.

So, I do think I'm as close enough to the beam as any well informed and experienced observer of the political shit heap can be...


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:16 AM

I am not resorting to personal attack, and that is simply your way, as ever, of sidestepping the challenges I put to you at 03.13 pm yesterday. You ARE opposed to Labour, you DO resort to quoting from right-wing media and pro-Zionist sources, you ARE a sycophantic supporter of the Israeli regime - and I would add also that you have very little understanding of what antisemitism actually entails, hardly surprising when one considers your sources of propaganda. Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread, so far to no avail as you, and your friend bobad while we're at it, have failed to answer a single question or rise to a single challenge put to you. And it is sheer hypocrisy to jump on this dogged anti-Labour bandwagon when there is so much racism, often of the institutionalised kind, far worse than anything in the Labour Party, in some of the organisations you've spoken up for in the past, UKIP and the Christian churches, for example. Your agenda in this thread is all too transparent, and we are not fools.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 01:02 PM

" Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread"

Is that some kind of joke? Straightforwardness and honesty are bigotry and ignorance when they don't fall in with your way of thinking.   You are the hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:10 PM

You don't understand this issue. And just wait until the next time you pontificate about how you never stoop to calling people names.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:02 AM

No surprise that they still invoke that old anti semitic trope.

SUMMARY: "Almost half of members in Britain's Labour party think the organization has no problem with anti-Semitism and believe a recent row on the issue has been confected by the media."

[read Jew controlled media]

Newsweek


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:19 AM

Almost half who think there's no problem means that more than half do think so. I'm a member and I do think there is an issue that needs to be investigated and resolved. I wonder what the pollsters would have made of that response. We'll never know because they didn't ask me. And why "read Jew-controlled media?" Can you justify that extrapolation by referring to any remark you've read anywhere that could have had truckloads of Labour members thinking "yeah - the only media who blew this lot up were the media controlled by Jews"? You told us to read that into it - now justify it. Carry on like that and you'll be an embarrassment even to Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:40 AM

Bobad - why are you so obsessed with jews controlling everything.. ???

.. because you're the only poster to this thread who has repeatedly and consistently resorted to dragging up this old over simplistic prejudiced 'myth'...????? 😕


FACT: the entire world does not revolve around the real or imagined problems of Jews and Israel..
no matter how much you might like it to be;
or how many decent folk you accuse and attempt to discredit as antisemitic,
because they do not acquiesce to your ideologically bigoted fundamentalist doctrine.


I don't think I've ever encountered you before this thread, so I started off with an open mind as to what kind of person you could be.

Now after several days, and many posts, I can't help thinking you might be more than a touch irrational and deluded...????????

I certainly am no longer able to take you seriously.



To put this into perspective:

Ake is a man who I very often disagree with.
I am aware he is intensely disliked by other 'left wing' mudcatters for his purported views on certain important issues.
Yet, I still find aspects of him that I can't help respecting, and almost admire.

Keith, is on a completely different wavelength to me,
We rarely if ever agree at all.
But he is one of our traditional British reactionary 'eccentrics' and at heart probably a fairly decent chap.


You on the other hand now seem to me to have no redeeming characteristics, or credibility whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Btw.. It took me about 20 minutes to preview and post due to mudcat [server ?] availability probl