BS: If you gotta P

Subject: BS: If you gotta P
From: Donuel
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:32 PM

In America the unchristian right has devised a plan to punish the new civil rights laws for the LGBT community.

Of course the new state laws requiring birth certificates to use public rest rooms would cost millions to enforce by hiring police or special genital inspectors. As new job programs go this one blows.

It is defended as a need to keep transsexuals out of the ladies room and away from 14 year old girls.

These are Trump's people who want to fight civil rights.




to the tune by mamas&papas 'San Francisco"


If you gotta go in Carolina
Be sure to bring your birth certificate
If you're going to pee or poop in Texas
You'll find some strange new State laws there

For those who go in Public Rest rooms
You will have to prove your gender there.

In the streets of New York City
The urine flows in the alleys thick and free.
Now across the nation such a strange vibration
People waiting cross legged to pee.

There's a whole generation with a new explanation
People in motion, people in motion
For those who go in Carolina
Be sure to wear some Depends to avoid commotion

If you gotta pee in Christian Country
You gotta prove your gender there

If you poop in Texas country
You gotta prove you're not a queer.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:44 PM

Well said, mate. Mrs Steve and I were bloody furious when we saw this in a news item tonight. You'd think that peeing and shitting were all about sex, according to these bloody stupid yanks. These self-righteous Christian bastards can go to hell as far as I'm concerned if they don't want to treat human beings like human beings. Gits.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:39 AM

It has nothing at all to do with anyone's religion. It is all about hate and discrimination. The religious right is about money, power and political gains. Sadly people can't see that the same people would deny minorities their rights to exist if they could. Look at all of them, your will see blond hair, blue eyes and a seek Heil.
This shit been going on for 300 years. The kkk claims they are a white benevolent Christian group. The difference is what. I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush but look hard and there is nothing to do with religion under the hood. Trumps group had a white supremacy organization making robo calls. They appointed a kkk leader as a California delegate until the press caught it and they asked him to resign and claimed an error occurred. It is really easy to hide under the cloak of religion for all of them. They have nothing to do with God

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:45 AM

And I only use trump as an example of the religious right backing him. Kudos to trump for saying they would be welcome to pee whereverthey choose in his businesses. However the religious right backing of him on all the racist deportation shit says it all

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Here in California, there's a bill before the state legislature that proposes to make all one-toilet restrooms into unisex bathrooms. I'm sure the bill will pass, because it makes a lot of sense. Can't imagine it would get through the North Carolina legislature.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:48 AM

Donuel, I suspect you meant Scott Meckenzie, not Momas and Papas. That said lol. Please remember that the "stupid yank" president has offered an edict that will deny funding to any state that goes forward with this b/s. Texas is calling that blackmail. I'm almost sorry to have lived to see these days. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 May 16 - 10:30 AM

As I said on another forum, only someone who HAD to use a "male" facility would do so. The state of many of them, especially in boys' schools, would make anyone of a sensitive nature (and sense of smell) run away screaming!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 10:38 AM

Roger, in some cases, in my expierience, the ladies are worse, so I don't think it's gender biased. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 16 - 10:42 AM

Well said, mate. Mrs Steve and I were bloody furious when we saw this in a news item tonight. You'd think that peeing and shitting were all about sex, according to these bloody stupid yanks. These self-righteous Christian bastards can go to hell as far as I'm concerned if they don't want to treat human beings like human beings.

...

[olddude]

It has nothing at all to do with anyone's religion. It is all about hate and discrimination.


Declaring an interest here: I am, as I've made clear from previous posts a practicing Catholic. I also have an erstwhile brother who is now my sister, who also runs an LGBT group.

I'm more with olddude on this one: it is everything to do with hate and power, yes, but there's a good old dose of fear stirred into the mix. While there's undoubtedly a significant number of self-righteous Christians involved, that is at least as much to do with the number of Americans who identify themselves as Christians. This is much wider than that.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 10:53 AM

Being an old dude myself, seems logical to agree. Can you really picture a TV preying on a young member of the sex they have identified with? Makes no sense. It is fear of the "other" Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 May 16 - 11:58 AM

Seems to me that if you identify so closely with a certain sex you'd go all the way and get your plumbing rearranged. That would solve the problem of equipage. Transvestites have been around for centuries and some are quite heterosexual...and they become another problem entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:05 PM

Wouldn't matter, unless you somehow paid to have your birth certificate altered. What incredible bull. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:07 PM

Under North Carolina law, transgender man Buck Angel would be required to use the women's room because he has a vulva. What do you suppose most women would think if he walked into an occupied women's room? I suspect a few would call the cops.

On the other hand, if he were to use the men's room, (closed stall, obviously, because he doesn't have the requisite equipment to use a men's urinal) nobody'd think a thing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:35 PM

Well speaking personally I would not like to use a public lavatory if women were admitted.....whether THEY think they are men or not.

I am sure most women would feel the same way about men using their public lavatories.......some things demand a bit of privacy.

I only know of one transgender person locally, he is over six feet, sports a bushy beard and wears boots and working cloths. He is down to have an operation to remove his male genitalia shortly.
He already upsets local women by insisting on using female changing rooms.........if he walked into the female public lavatory he would be arrested.   This guy is seriously disturbed, and to encourage him in his delusion is a form of abuse.

Has the world really gone mad?......The Roman Empire all over again?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:39 PM

I can't imagine what The Fearful think might happen to them if a transgender person (or anyone for that matter) enters a public toilet. Surely they merely wish to relieve themselves, not carry out mass rape or murder? If,say, a man really intended to rape a woman in a loo, he could burst in and do so notwithstanding the sign on the door or the 'rules' about who may wee therein.

People can be very cruel and ignorant about these matters. They should remember that we're talking about real people with feelings and pride, not some species of monster from Mars. I personally don't care who is allowed in a toilet. As long as there is a cubicle and a door for each stall, what more need one wish for?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:46 PM

What Sen said. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:47 PM

In parts of France it is common to reach the women's lavatories ny walking past the urinals. In other parts of France and indeed London there are "open air" urinals on the streets. Other parts of the world have other arrangements.

As a rule what people acceptable is what they are used to. But that's just habit in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:57 PM

In W Africa (which I'm always harping on about) you have to get used to people just using the roadside or a handy tree in full view. No-one thinks anything of it, as there are no public lavatories to be found. I certainly didn't mind. DMcG is quite right: it's just cultural habits.

I had to smile about the 'Genital Inspectors'. Just imagine exposing oneself at the entrance to a toilet in order to gain lawful entry. It would be like an episode of Monty Python!

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:21 PM

When I was much younger. I wanted to write a pamphlet titled "the Art Of Pissing In Public" Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:32 PM

If akenaton is permitted by the powers that be here to post such vile nonsense, I hope I can be permitted to say that he is demonstrating bigotry and ignorance. And if I owned a public toilet I'd make him prove he was a human being first. It could be an uphill struggle.

In the footage I saw on the telly there were religious placards being waved. Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:35 PM

Be ease on him,Steve, he sounds 'publican and might be from N. Carolina. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:42 PM

Rapparee says: Seems to me that if you identify so closely with a certain sex you'd go all the way and get your plumbing rearranged.

True, but what does a transgender person do in the meantime? Or in betweentime? The process of an actual, physical sex change takes more than one operation, hormone treatments, and whatnot. And doctors are reluctant to do it on school-age children. And then, of course, will the Great State of North Carolina issue a person a changed birth certificate after the surgery is completed?

By the way, I went to the Catholic Religious Education Congress in Los Angeles this spring. One of the workshops was about being transgender in the Catholic Church. Two transgender young people spoke. So many people wanted to hear the presentation, that it was standing room only. And the audience was amazingly supportive. The two young people gave very moving presentations. They also told us of the prejudice they had encountered within the Catholic Church - and also the support they have received from their church. So, attitudes are changing, at least in some places. This congress wasn't a gathering of Catholic radicals - it was sponsored by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:51 PM

Joe, how much of this attitude is due to His Holiness Pope Frances Mike ( Epis. Catholic Lite)?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 16 - 04:53 PM

In the footage I saw on the telly there were religious placards being waved. Just sayin'.

As long as we agree this attitude isn't confined to the religious - it isn't - and that not all religiously inclined people hold that view - they don't


Just clarifyin'

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:32 PM

A woman posted recently on Facebook about this. She was concerned that any man could enter a ladies convenience for whatever reason and was not comfortable with this. To the best of my knowledge she is not a practicing Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:47 PM

"As long as we agree this attitude isn't confined to the religious - it isn't - and that not all religiously inclined people hold that view - they don't "

Fine. Now can we also agree that not all Labour Party lefties are antisemitic?

Oops - wrong thread. Or is it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:49 PM

Quite right Pete, this issue has little or nothing to do with religion and everything to do with what sort of society we are constructing.

Steve, you have the right to say whatever you please here within certain limits. We are discussing an issue which is in the news, my views are as valid as yours or anyone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:02 PM

Odd response, Steve. I haven't been involved in the lefty-antisemitism discussion, so why you chose to reference my post is baffling.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:03 PM

To the best of my knowledge she is not a practicing Christian.

No, she's just a practicing idiot. I suppose she's also concerned about "Obabacare "death panels".

BNy the way, pete, how the hell would you know WHAt she is, on FarceBook?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:08 PM

What does it matter what she is? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:23 PM

Ake says: Well speaking personally I would not like to use a public lavatory if women were admitted.....whether THEY think they are men or not.

Well, ake - if you come to California, you're just gonna have to hold it...

Mkebenn, I suppose Pope Francis has helped some Catholics improve their attitudes toward transgender people, but I think a lot of that tolerance was present before Francis was elected. It didn't change overnight with the election of a new Pope.

And yes, Steve Shaw, there are people who use their religion as an excuse for their bigotry. And there are people who use their religion as a reason for their tolerance.



-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:15 PM

On this occasion, Joe, there were religious placards proclaiming hurtful things like God made boys boys and girls girls and never the twain shall meet. I didn't see any opposition placards from religious people showing their disagreement with that. I know that they exist. But it's a bit like all that illiberal nonsense about contraception and AIDS in Africa. The biggest voices are always the naysayers, and the good guys are silent. If you only speak up when challenged in threads, that isn't going to help transgender people very much, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 16 - 08:14 PM

Now, that's where we differ, Steve. Yes, there are people out there shouting all sorts of bigotry, and I know that a number of other Mudcatters feel obliged to get right out there and shout them down. And they show a tendency to show disdain for us who don't join in the shouting. If fact, they seem to think that since we don't join in shouting at the bigots, that we may well be supporting the bigotry.

Well, I've never found shouting to be very effective, so I refrain from it except in very rare situations where I find shouting to be effective. I've found that if I shout too often, people stop listening to me.

Most of the time, I find that if I attack bigotry directly, I only serve to strengthen the cause of the bigots. The supporters of Donald Trump are profiting heavily from this phenomenon.

So, instead of attacking or condemning bigots, I work hard to spotlight the positive side of the objects of bigotry. I don't spend much time opposing anti-Hispanic bigotry here in California, although I am bitterly opposed to it. Instead, I do everything I can to support the dignity of Hispanics in California, and to demonstrate to people that Hispanics were here before we were and have a historic right to be here.

In my community, there is a strong and organized opposition to homeless people. And yes, I do have to knock heads with those anti-homeless bigots on occasion. Most of the time, though, I work to show how our homeless people come from right here, and have often lived here longer than the people who are complaining about them. I also work hard to support the shelter we've built to help solve the problem of homelessness.

Direct opposition to bigotry has its place, no doubt. But for the most part, the bigots express themselves in ways that are far less than what most people would consider to be "intelligent.' So, if all you can do is match the performance of the bigots, my fear is that you will destroy the credibility of the cause.

So, better to use logic, persuasion, and good example to promote one's cause. Shouting does work, but only if used sparingly. In the long run, positive efforts are far more effective than strident opposition.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 08:38 PM

That is far too black and white. People who oppose the homeless may not be bigots. You start from a standpoint of calling them bigots, when they are probably not, then you wonder why it's so hard to oppose them. Homeless people can appear to be a genuine threat to local people. The locals may feel that they are threatened in the streets or threatened with burglary. That is not bigotry. You use that word way too loosely. I would also add that I do not show "disdain" for people who are slow to openly oppose bigotry. I challenge people to oppose it. I challenge you in this forum because you've been keen to tell me you have powers that I don't have. With power comes responsibility. I've been fighting a long-time bigot in another thread now for a couple of weeks, who not only calls people hateful names and trolls at least every other post but who also posts under secret multiple identities. Every day when I open Mudcat, the first thing I do is to find out whether those that have the power have tackled this charlatan. Unfortunately, any tackling I see is directed at people who lack diplomacy, lack tactical nous, lack the desire for outcome but who are, generally speaking, right-minded. We are the usual suspects. They have the shelter of some weird, American form of free speech no matter how hateful. No amount of logic, persuasion and good example works with them. Try it and see, instead of telling us the theory. Or simply let Mudcat be the haven where bigots are unchallenged, yet bad-tempered good sorts are thrown off. It's your gig, as I always say.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 16 - 09:49 PM

The particular people who oppose homeless people in our community ARE bigots, Steve. They blame our shelter for causing the problem of homelessness, and are unable to appreciate it as an attempt at a solution. They lie and say the homeless are newcomers to our community, and most of our homeless have been here far longer than they have. They are hysterical and unreasonable.

Now, even bigotry has its basis in reasonable fear, at times. Parents have reason to fear perverts attacking their children in school bathrooms. But is that fear reasonable? And if they fear perverts, is it reasonable for them to fear transgender people?

Bigotry is at least partly based on fear. If we are to defeat bigotry, then we must use reason to dispel the fear. Same goes for all forms of bigotry. A positive, non-threatening approach is usually far more effective than aggression that just exacerbates the fear.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 02:14 AM

then we must use reason to dispel the fear.

Sort of. Such fears are being driven by emotion, in the main, and emotion doesn't really respond to reason very well. And it responds really badly to being shouted at. But is you mean we act in a way that shows there is no reason to fear, I'd agree.

And as for what banners are shown at what events: I have been to quite a number of rallies and things that made the news. It is always worth remembering that what is shown is the decision of the film makers and editors and may not fully reflect what was there. Maybe it does, maybe not. I don't have the information to say in this case. Same with talking heads and facebook pages. The loudest voices are not always the most representative.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 02:38 AM

I'll put that another way. I was told decades ago that when a journalist is interviewing someone it is part of their training to be constantly thinking "Why is the bastard telling me this?" (Probably the perjorative term has changed these days) It is a good habit to get into when watching news reports. It is not the same as being cynical, and claiming the broadcasters are just out and out liars. Much of the time they are genuinely trying to show the truth as they see it. But because of their attitudes, experiences, and the sheer limitations of time in the news report, it is invariably partial.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:28 AM

Journalists and TV News broadcasting have one goal in mind, which is to stir up interest, so they select provocative images and contentious remarks, rather than a measured and fair commentary. Even the revered BBC does this from time to time. The Daily Mail does it all the time.

'Bigotry is at least partly based on fear' (Joe). I agree. But also ignorance has a part to play. Most folk don't know any transgender people, and probably demonise them in their minds. (Although I must say, I don't know any either, but I wouldn't turn a hair if toilets were 'open to all'.)

What annoys me very much is when a group of a particular religion takes it upon itself to dictate to the rest of us. Muslims are often decried because of this, but most fundamentalist-type religions do the same. It's ironic that Christians, whose tenets include loving one's neighbour, can be cruel and insulting to a section of society merely because of their sexual orientation. They seem incapable of empathising with these people's difficult situation.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:59 AM

Well, I meet a lot of people during the day and have discussed this matter with people from my own area. I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.
All see it as an invasion of privacy.

Now even if these TG people believe they are women, they certainly are not, even after the surgery which is now available.

Removal of male genitalia does not make one "a woman".......being a woman is immensely more complicated than that.
What is meant, is that they wish to be regarded as a woman......that wish is hard to quantify, where is the line drawn etc, it is wide open to abuses of all sorts. best to draw the line at birth gender.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:04 AM

It is ironic that Christians ...incapable of empathising...

I couldn't agree more. But it very much boils down to whether people are pharasical-rule-followers or trying to follow the over-arching principles. It be amongst the first to agree there are far too many of the former.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:09 AM

"Best to draw the line at birth gender" - but do we have to draw a line in the first place? We have managed a great many centuries without feeling the need to introduce a law, being content with common sense by all parties most of the time, and the various laws about harassment and assault for the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:19 AM

But akenaton, one doesn't 'share a lavatory' with anyone. There is a toilet for each person, behind a door which closes and even locks. I doesn't matter who comes into the main entrance. They aren't actually watching proceedings are they? It's quite mad to wonder if they have a willy or not, or whether surgery has changed their body. It's nobody's business. One is there to wee, not to speculate about someone's genitals or lack of.
I think the key word is 'compassion'. It must be very difficult and upsetting for a transgender to have to navigate the prejudice and antagonism of others while coping with his/her own adjustment to their life. They aren't going to infect us with Ebola. They just want to wee.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:39 AM

Genital anomalies are estimated to occur in 1 in 4,500 births...

That's what comes of drawing lines at birth - nature doesn't, always. In fact, quite often compared to some other genetic problems.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:03 AM

"Well, I meet a lot of people during the day and have discussed this matter with people from my own area. I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.
All see it as an invasion of privacy."

And I wonder how many of these lots of people you discuss it with regard you as something as a weirdo obsessive for constantly bringing it up?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:27 AM

As this is leaving discussion and developing into the usual series of personal insults, by the usual person, I will leave it until heads become cooler.
Sorry D McG and others, perhaps I will return to the debate later.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 16 - 11:11 AM

Anyone who wants to go into the stall next to me does so at their own risk, especially after I ate Mexican food Lol

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 11:34 AM

I'd fully expect you to turn to the person next to you to tell them how cold the porcelain is, Dan 😉

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: John P
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:22 PM

The ironically tragic part is that transgender people have always been among us, and have always used the bathroom that matches their internal identity. And hardly anyone noticed.

School children, of course, have a much harder time, since the school administrators and many of their classmates know what they were physically born as. And so many high school hetero boys are sexual pigs. The real problem isn't with transgendered people in the loo, it's "normal" people getting violent if they find out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:51 PM

That's it, John. I'm ashamed to say that, as a teacher of 25 years' standing, I never heard the issue raised even once. Jaysus, that does not make me feel good. But the signs are that awareness is increasing and that times are changing. Today we embrace and celebrate gay people. Maybe in thirty years' time we'll all be the same about transgender people. There will be plenty of akenaton-style obstacles along the way, no doubt. I stopped finding jokes about transgender people funny several years ago. Life's a work in progress, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 16 - 01:37 AM

Ake says: I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.

I guess, ake, that I have to admit that I might be uncomfortable sharing a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex. But I consider a transgender man to be a man, because that is the life he is living. And I consider a transgender woman to be a woman. I wouldn't dream of trying to dictate to them who they're supposed to be, and I'm appalled at the thought of somebody having to provide a birth certificate to get permission to use a lavatory.

Let the people pee.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:51 AM

Joe, I'm sure you sincerely believe what you say, but that does not alter the fact that wishing to be regarded as a "man" or a "woman" is very different from actually being a man or a woman?

Everyone may not share your views on the issue and the issue is not really about "peeing" as I am sure you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:58 AM

Thus speaks our self-styled gender expert. What a ridiculous post.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:27 AM

Old dude,
I am blonde, blue eyed and for all intrinsic purposes had relatives who hailed heil. Lets say that an American GI Jewish clerk did some magic with some paperwork in 1948 Europe and saved me from a Liebensborn orphanage. Growing up in America I heard the hateful or suspicious post war remarks in the barber shop and from relatives and neighbors. That my Dad had black hair and looked very Jewish and I had white hair was common question I received. Looking like a little storm trooper in 1951 made initial enemies of potential friends and unwanted friends of potential enemies. For these reasons I understand what immigrants feel in a unique way.

It is always about what you are taught. In this Shindleresque case its all nurture and no nature.

Teach your children well.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:06 AM

This smacks to me of the days of segregation of blacks and whites in USA. Toilets for 'Blacks Only' and those for 'Whites Only'. And in South Africa during apartheid, blacks and whites couldn't mix. But they had a bit of difficulty with people of mixed race. Were they 'Non-Whites'? Or 'Almost Whites'?? Or 'A Slightly Off-White'?? One needed a shade card, or DNA profile, in effect, to prove exactly what one was. And actually, they were all Human Beings. Couldn't the same conclusion be reached about transgender people too? Just human beings like every one of us.

After all, we all choose how to present ourselves in public. I'm elderly, but I could dye my hair and have Botox, and go about looking 20 years younger. No-one would dream of asking me for my Birth Certificate to prove my actual age in, say, a teenage dress-shop. As long as I'm not carrying a Kalashnikov, I'm not toxic to society.

If a person feels happier and more in tune with their inner self by changing their sexual appearance and body form, nobody needs to challenge them. Same thing with transvestites. If they want to wear certain clothing why ever not? If a gay person wants to walk down the street hand-in-hand with their partner, it's lovely to see.
This daft terror of going into a loo and (shock! horror!) finding a transgender person walking in too is silly. They are NOT dangerous. They are NOT sexual predators.

I get so cross at some folk's discriminatory attitude. Relax. No-one will die. The most dangerous and worrying people in our society at present are the racist, homophobic and fundamentalist bigots. It's they who threaten our peace and our happiness.

I can honestly and truthfully say I wouldn't feel at all ill at ease if a man who had become a transgender woman entered a public toilet while I was washing my hands, and proceeded to comb their hair or go into a cubicle. It really really doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:36 AM

What Americans need are genital-specific, rather than gender-specific, bathrooms for children. The whole thing for kids is Americans are afraid they'll see something different - so fine, have what I've heard labelled as Pointers and Setters, and let it be.

Where I go camping there are group showers for men, women, or anybody; most people use the anybody one but it's the all-male one that gets frisky in the evenings, and the anybody one stays normal. The all-women one seems mostly for the fundies. The anybody one is open to the sky, too, great place for hot water.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:22 PM

I tend to agree that people are either one or the other, though I know there have been some irregularities at birth. It is because scripture says that he created us male and female. However, I don't know enough to say whether there are special cases or not. At sing around and open mic I have met apparently men identifying as women or cross dressing and I get on fine with them. And they with me. I don't make an issue of it or discuss it , though I might if they broach the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:56 PM

"I tend to agree that people are either one or the other..."

Then I suggest that you do some research. Ignorance, intolerance, ridicule and bullying apropos of this serious issue are causing suffering to millions of people. Best to look into it a little before sounding off with unsupportable opinions. I suppose, looking at your post, I should at least credit you with showing some tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:50 PM

It is because scripture says...

Now THERE'S your problem!

So much for Ake's "this issue has little or nothing to do with religion", eh?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM

When the gals toilets got lined up at busy taverns in Quebec, Canada, (where I used to live) smart thinking gals used the guys - with no complaints from the guys that I ever saw.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 16 - 11:01 PM

I suppose that like the conservatives, I see this as a privacy issue. Challenging or questioning a person's sexual identity is a gross invasion of privacy, a far more serious violation than having to share bathroom facilities.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:27 AM

no one is challenging their right to believe what they wish Joe.
Legislation on that belief which affects the whole of society is something completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:20 AM

I'm a Christian. The trouble is, when adhering strictly to the words in the Bible, one comes up against a perennial problem. Jesus lived over 2000 years ago. There was no surgery, genetic profiling, understanding of psychology and so on. Even healing the sick (which occurs in our hospitals daily as routine) was considered a miracle. One just can't apply 'Bible regulations' to today's world.

I hope that in time, people with 'differences' will just be seen as 'people'. Full stop. It's happened with gay folk. It's illegal now to discriminate and rightly so. There may still be stubborn prejudice, but gradually things are settling down. Eventually, we will all stop getting ourselves terribly worked up about who can or can't use a toilet, and concentrate on the far more serious issues in our world such as wars, refugees, poverty, famine and natural disasters.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:43 AM

An intolerant and ignorant post followed by a lovely one filled with humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:52 AM

Ake, you're just not using logic here. A transgender male believes that he is a male, and does his best to act and live like a male - including using the men's bathroom. If you are going to stop him at the bathroom door and challenge his sexual identity, that is grossly offensive and likely to cause him great embarrassment. And yes, that certainly is preventing him from "believing what he wishes." Your position is downright cruel.

Do you know any transgender people? I guess you don't. If you did, you certainly wouldn't talk like that. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:24 AM

We can either emphasize those aspects of our traditions, religious or secular, that speak of hatred, exclusion, and suspicion - or work with those that stress the interdependence and equality of all human beings. The choice is yours." 
Karen Armstrong

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:01 AM

No lectures please Joe, I think you know me better than that and if you care to read my posts to this thread you will see that I do know one person who says he believes he is in the wrong body.

He has been offered the operation, but most people who know him are of the opinion that he is simply psychologically disturbed.

Should we change society's rules to accommodate such people even if it causes real distress to other women?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:20 AM

I suppose
THIS is what you mean by your last group of platitudes Ed.

The problem with "liberalism" is that it never knows where to stop.
It will keep rolling until society has been completely dismantled...family life....the Church....any sort of social order.

Before anyone jumps in, I am not a believer in an afterlife, but see the Christian Church as a movement for good in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:08 AM

Oh dear akenaton that poor man! How awful that everyone who knows him thinks he's psychologically disturbed! So not only does he have to contend with feeling he's in the wrong body, but also that people are convinced he's mentally unwell? It reminds me of old attitudes to homosexuality; people were offered 'treatment' or even aversion therapy consisting of electric shocks to shake them out of their 'perversion'. Dreadful.

And I do so hope that liberalism will continue rolling, at least until equality is achieved, and freedom to be who and what one wants to be.
There are many forms of 'family life' and many types of sexuality. All are equally valid.

I know a really lovely couple of gay men. They're devoted to eachother and have been extremely kind to me and my husband. I also know a transvestite man, very stylishly dressed. He is often to be seen in the main city where we live. Everyone loves to have a chat with him and he too is kindly and a very nice person. He once gave me a hug when I told him I'd been ill. I knew a lesbian couple who were the parents of one of my pupils. They were excellent parents and their child was flourishing. I see no reason why any of these folk should be looked at askance, controlled, limited or discriminated against.

You just CAN'T challenge anyone in a toilet about what bits of their bodies are missing or have been added on. It's preposterous!

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:13 AM

Legislation...which affects the whole of society

How, precisely, Ake? Sure as hell don't effect ME.

Now you're whining just like the moron bigots in N. Carolina who passed the recent idiotic legislation. Now THAT legislation affects the whole of society - negatively.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:38 AM

".. you will see that I do know one person who says he believes he is in the wrong body."

He "says" he believes, eh? Claims he believes? Do you believe that he believes, or do you think he's lying?

"He has been offered the operation, but most people who know him are of the opinion that he is simply psychologically disturbed."

Can you provide a slightly more accurate diagnosis of his psychological condition? When I looked it up in a medical dictionary, "simply psychologically disturbed" wasn't in the index. And can you give us the medical qualifications of all these people who know him who you say have reached this conclusion about him?

I think we know you all too well, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:40 AM

Gosh people are people. Who cares if they pee next to you. We all do it.
Don all I was saying is history repeats itself and we have to be careful who we follow.. Nothing more. My grandbabies have blond hair. Geezh sorry

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:02 PM

Ake, please remember our Lord is all about loving one another no matter their path.
That you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me.

Ok people are born how ever they are. It is not us to judge others as to how God made other people

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:32 PM

It is not us to judge others as to how God made other people

Ah, Jeez, Dan - you're taking all the fun out of it! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Nope, Ake, you did not get it, again, as indicared by your blue atrachment. . Oh well, at a minimum, you are showing consistancy, and predictability on related topics (my Mom taught me to search out the good light in dark corners of folks).

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:46 PM

the good light in dark corners of folks

Always assuming that there is any.......

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:31 PM

Greg F says: Now you're whining just like the moron bigots in N. Carolina who passed the recent idiotic legislation.

North Carolina used to be known for being a very progressive state, the most progressive in the South. Something tipped the political balance in the state. The progressives have tried hard, but they haven't been able to tip it back. The Moral Monday movement that started demonstrating in Raleigh in 2013, is a very impressive example of grassroots community organizing.

North Carolina is a wonderful state, known especially for its excellent educational institutions, its historic importance, and its natural beauty. I hope the progressives win it back.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 16 - 06:48 PM

Most of these well thought out understanding of the people involved in this issue should include the Texas politician who is pushing this thing for votes, cash and notoriety.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: gillymor
Date: 17 May 16 - 07:56 PM

Joe, this article from the New Yorker in 2011 might give you some idea of what happened to North Carolina. It's one my favorite states, or used to be anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 08:26 PM

North Carolina is a wonderful state,

North Carolina WAS a wonderful state, Joe - been there many times in the past & loved it. But they've been electing a gang of idiots for some years. As for its "excellent educational institutions" the same idiots are in the process of doing away with those as well.

I too hope the progressives win it back, but I wouldn't bet a great deal of money on it happening any time soon, if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Janie
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:18 PM

I've lived in North Carolina for 30 years now. Not inclined to leave.

Not inclined to comment. Pointless here.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 18 May 16 - 04:39 AM

Dan, you are a lovely guy, the goodness shines out of you, but in constructing a viable society everyone cannot get everything they want. "Society" is a control mechanism and a serious and valuable one.
Just imagine what sort of world we would inhabit if everyone was given the right and the means to do exactly as they please regardless of the effect on other members.

There are many huge decisions to be made concerning the future of society, regarding how much medical treatment we can actually afford, not what is actually available. What is to be done about the ever increasing number of old people who have to be kept alive regardless of their quality of life. How our population is to be given some purpose as technology takes over.......Dozens of important problems which require serious thought, not just love to solve.

Of course I am sorry for those who for whatever reason are forced to function on the fringes of society, but in the real world big decisions need to be made and a workably society created. Destruction of the template which has served us well for many years is insanity.

Eliza, I know you and I disagree strongly on this issue please don't be so bloody patronising.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 16 - 04:53 AM

Janie, I still love N.C. and I think that it's government's going to right itself (or left itself, as it were).

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 18 May 16 - 06:13 AM

"Once a man gets a fixed idea, there's nothing to be done." 
― Anton Chekhov

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 16 - 06:40 AM

regardless of the effect on other members.

And what, precisely, are these horrific & dastardly effects regarding the specific case under discussion, Ake?

By the way: How are those supposedly "effected" to know the gender of the supposed offender in the first place? Is it obligatory upon entering the loo in question to wave one's private parts around for all to inspect?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Er, akenaton, I don't think we've ever met, so how can you say 'I know you'? And please don't swear at me, there's no need for that.
I was not being patronising at all, merely expressing my views on a forum, as does everyone else on here.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:02 AM

My room mate envisions x-ray scanners as at airports that you walk thru to verify any or detect any biological clues before gaining entry to facility of choice. Good thing we don't have any serious issues to deal with. Mike. ps, this is sarcasm not suggestion

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:30 PM

As I said above, my sibling is transgender, so here's a few points based on my experience.

1) The only difficulty I had was with pronouns. When you've been using 'he' for decades its is damnably easy to say that instead of 'she'. It is worth getting an understanding that this is stupidity on my part, not a statement of a viewpoint.

2) It is especially difficult when discussing the past. I tend to use 'he' for before the operation and 'she' after, but that does depend on the exact situation.

3) His/Her concern was very much about how people would react. This meant the whole thing took decades, including times afterwards when she dressed as male. No-one should underestimate what has to be gone through while finding your way.

4) Everyone *I* know who has been told had precisely one reaction - sorrow for the pain he/she went through without letting anyone know.

5) I am sure there are some she knows who didn't have that attitude.

6) And there is one person who not a close relative of hers who I would not tell, because I think that relative would react badly. It may be mistaken on my part, but I am not raising the matter with them.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:25 PM

Apparently, schools in California meet with the parents of transgender kids when they enroll, and work together to smooth out any difficulties they can foresee. I don't know much at all about how they handle it; but it appears that the attitude they try to foster is one of compassion, not control and regulation.

-Joe-