BS: If you gotta P

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:25 PM

Apparently, schools in California meet with the parents of transgender kids when they enroll, and work together to smooth out any difficulties they can foresee. I don't know much at all about how they handle it; but it appears that the attitude they try to foster is one of compassion, not control and regulation.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:30 PM

As I said above, my sibling is transgender, so here's a few points based on my experience.

1) The only difficulty I had was with pronouns. When you've been using 'he' for decades its is damnably easy to say that instead of 'she'. It is worth getting an understanding that this is stupidity on my part, not a statement of a viewpoint.

2) It is especially difficult when discussing the past. I tend to use 'he' for before the operation and 'she' after, but that does depend on the exact situation.

3) His/Her concern was very much about how people would react. This meant the whole thing took decades, including times afterwards when she dressed as male. No-one should underestimate what has to be gone through while finding your way.

4) Everyone *I* know who has been told had precisely one reaction - sorrow for the pain he/she went through without letting anyone know.

5) I am sure there are some she knows who didn't have that attitude.

6) And there is one person who not a close relative of hers who I would not tell, because I think that relative would react badly. It may be mistaken on my part, but I am not raising the matter with them.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: mkebenn
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:02 AM

My room mate envisions x-ray scanners as at airports that you walk thru to verify any or detect any biological clues before gaining entry to facility of choice. Good thing we don't have any serious issues to deal with. Mike. ps, this is sarcasm not suggestion

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Er, akenaton, I don't think we've ever met, so how can you say 'I know you'? And please don't swear at me, there's no need for that.
I was not being patronising at all, merely expressing my views on a forum, as does everyone else on here.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 16 - 06:40 AM

regardless of the effect on other members.

And what, precisely, are these horrific & dastardly effects regarding the specific case under discussion, Ake?

By the way: How are those supposedly "effected" to know the gender of the supposed offender in the first place? Is it obligatory upon entering the loo in question to wave one's private parts around for all to inspect?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 18 May 16 - 06:13 AM

"Once a man gets a fixed idea, there's nothing to be done." 
― Anton Chekhov

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 16 - 04:53 AM

Janie, I still love N.C. and I think that it's government's going to right itself (or left itself, as it were).

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 18 May 16 - 04:39 AM

Dan, you are a lovely guy, the goodness shines out of you, but in constructing a viable society everyone cannot get everything they want. "Society" is a control mechanism and a serious and valuable one.
Just imagine what sort of world we would inhabit if everyone was given the right and the means to do exactly as they please regardless of the effect on other members.

There are many huge decisions to be made concerning the future of society, regarding how much medical treatment we can actually afford, not what is actually available. What is to be done about the ever increasing number of old people who have to be kept alive regardless of their quality of life. How our population is to be given some purpose as technology takes over.......Dozens of important problems which require serious thought, not just love to solve.

Of course I am sorry for those who for whatever reason are forced to function on the fringes of society, but in the real world big decisions need to be made and a workably society created. Destruction of the template which has served us well for many years is insanity.

Eliza, I know you and I disagree strongly on this issue please don't be so bloody patronising.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Janie
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:18 PM

I've lived in North Carolina for 30 years now. Not inclined to leave.

Not inclined to comment. Pointless here.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 08:26 PM

North Carolina is a wonderful state,

North Carolina WAS a wonderful state, Joe - been there many times in the past & loved it. But they've been electing a gang of idiots for some years. As for its "excellent educational institutions" the same idiots are in the process of doing away with those as well.

I too hope the progressives win it back, but I wouldn't bet a great deal of money on it happening any time soon, if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: gillymor
Date: 17 May 16 - 07:56 PM

Joe, this article from the New Yorker in 2011 might give you some idea of what happened to North Carolina. It's one my favorite states, or used to be anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 16 - 06:48 PM

Most of these well thought out understanding of the people involved in this issue should include the Texas politician who is pushing this thing for votes, cash and notoriety.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:31 PM

Greg F says: Now you're whining just like the moron bigots in N. Carolina who passed the recent idiotic legislation.

North Carolina used to be known for being a very progressive state, the most progressive in the South. Something tipped the political balance in the state. The progressives have tried hard, but they haven't been able to tip it back. The Moral Monday movement that started demonstrating in Raleigh in 2013, is a very impressive example of grassroots community organizing.

North Carolina is a wonderful state, known especially for its excellent educational institutions, its historic importance, and its natural beauty. I hope the progressives win it back.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:46 PM

the good light in dark corners of folks

Always assuming that there is any.......

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Nope, Ake, you did not get it, again, as indicared by your blue atrachment. . Oh well, at a minimum, you are showing consistancy, and predictability on related topics (my Mom taught me to search out the good light in dark corners of folks).

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:32 PM

It is not us to judge others as to how God made other people

Ah, Jeez, Dan - you're taking all the fun out of it! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 17 May 16 - 12:02 PM

Ake, please remember our Lord is all about loving one another no matter their path.
That you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me.

Ok people are born how ever they are. It is not us to judge others as to how God made other people

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:40 AM

Gosh people are people. Who cares if they pee next to you. We all do it.
Don all I was saying is history repeats itself and we have to be careful who we follow.. Nothing more. My grandbabies have blond hair. Geezh sorry

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:38 AM

".. you will see that I do know one person who says he believes he is in the wrong body."

He "says" he believes, eh? Claims he believes? Do you believe that he believes, or do you think he's lying?

"He has been offered the operation, but most people who know him are of the opinion that he is simply psychologically disturbed."

Can you provide a slightly more accurate diagnosis of his psychological condition? When I looked it up in a medical dictionary, "simply psychologically disturbed" wasn't in the index. And can you give us the medical qualifications of all these people who know him who you say have reached this conclusion about him?

I think we know you all too well, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:13 AM

Legislation...which affects the whole of society

How, precisely, Ake? Sure as hell don't effect ME.

Now you're whining just like the moron bigots in N. Carolina who passed the recent idiotic legislation. Now THAT legislation affects the whole of society - negatively.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:08 AM

Oh dear akenaton that poor man! How awful that everyone who knows him thinks he's psychologically disturbed! So not only does he have to contend with feeling he's in the wrong body, but also that people are convinced he's mentally unwell? It reminds me of old attitudes to homosexuality; people were offered 'treatment' or even aversion therapy consisting of electric shocks to shake them out of their 'perversion'. Dreadful.

And I do so hope that liberalism will continue rolling, at least until equality is achieved, and freedom to be who and what one wants to be.
There are many forms of 'family life' and many types of sexuality. All are equally valid.

I know a really lovely couple of gay men. They're devoted to eachother and have been extremely kind to me and my husband. I also know a transvestite man, very stylishly dressed. He is often to be seen in the main city where we live. Everyone loves to have a chat with him and he too is kindly and a very nice person. He once gave me a hug when I told him I'd been ill. I knew a lesbian couple who were the parents of one of my pupils. They were excellent parents and their child was flourishing. I see no reason why any of these folk should be looked at askance, controlled, limited or discriminated against.

You just CAN'T challenge anyone in a toilet about what bits of their bodies are missing or have been added on. It's preposterous!

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:20 AM

I suppose
THIS is what you mean by your last group of platitudes Ed.

The problem with "liberalism" is that it never knows where to stop.
It will keep rolling until society has been completely dismantled...family life....the Church....any sort of social order.

Before anyone jumps in, I am not a believer in an afterlife, but see the Christian Church as a movement for good in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:01 AM

No lectures please Joe, I think you know me better than that and if you care to read my posts to this thread you will see that I do know one person who says he believes he is in the wrong body.

He has been offered the operation, but most people who know him are of the opinion that he is simply psychologically disturbed.

Should we change society's rules to accommodate such people even if it causes real distress to other women?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:24 AM

We can either emphasize those aspects of our traditions, religious or secular, that speak of hatred, exclusion, and suspicion - or work with those that stress the interdependence and equality of all human beings. The choice is yours." 
Karen Armstrong

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:52 AM

Ake, you're just not using logic here. A transgender male believes that he is a male, and does his best to act and live like a male - including using the men's bathroom. If you are going to stop him at the bathroom door and challenge his sexual identity, that is grossly offensive and likely to cause him great embarrassment. And yes, that certainly is preventing him from "believing what he wishes." Your position is downright cruel.

Do you know any transgender people? I guess you don't. If you did, you certainly wouldn't talk like that. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:43 AM

An intolerant and ignorant post followed by a lovely one filled with humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:20 AM

I'm a Christian. The trouble is, when adhering strictly to the words in the Bible, one comes up against a perennial problem. Jesus lived over 2000 years ago. There was no surgery, genetic profiling, understanding of psychology and so on. Even healing the sick (which occurs in our hospitals daily as routine) was considered a miracle. One just can't apply 'Bible regulations' to today's world.

I hope that in time, people with 'differences' will just be seen as 'people'. Full stop. It's happened with gay folk. It's illegal now to discriminate and rightly so. There may still be stubborn prejudice, but gradually things are settling down. Eventually, we will all stop getting ourselves terribly worked up about who can or can't use a toilet, and concentrate on the far more serious issues in our world such as wars, refugees, poverty, famine and natural disasters.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:27 AM

no one is challenging their right to believe what they wish Joe.
Legislation on that belief which affects the whole of society is something completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 16 - 11:01 PM

I suppose that like the conservatives, I see this as a privacy issue. Challenging or questioning a person's sexual identity is a gross invasion of privacy, a far more serious violation than having to share bathroom facilities.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Ed T
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM

When the gals toilets got lined up at busy taverns in Quebec, Canada, (where I used to live) smart thinking gals used the guys - with no complaints from the guys that I ever saw.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:50 PM

It is because scripture says...

Now THERE'S your problem!

So much for Ake's "this issue has little or nothing to do with religion", eh?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:56 PM

"I tend to agree that people are either one or the other..."

Then I suggest that you do some research. Ignorance, intolerance, ridicule and bullying apropos of this serious issue are causing suffering to millions of people. Best to look into it a little before sounding off with unsupportable opinions. I suppose, looking at your post, I should at least credit you with showing some tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:22 PM

I tend to agree that people are either one or the other, though I know there have been some irregularities at birth. It is because scripture says that he created us male and female. However, I don't know enough to say whether there are special cases or not. At sing around and open mic I have met apparently men identifying as women or cross dressing and I get on fine with them. And they with me. I don't make an issue of it or discuss it , though I might if they broach the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:36 AM

What Americans need are genital-specific, rather than gender-specific, bathrooms for children. The whole thing for kids is Americans are afraid they'll see something different - so fine, have what I've heard labelled as Pointers and Setters, and let it be.

Where I go camping there are group showers for men, women, or anybody; most people use the anybody one but it's the all-male one that gets frisky in the evenings, and the anybody one stays normal. The all-women one seems mostly for the fundies. The anybody one is open to the sky, too, great place for hot water.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:06 AM

This smacks to me of the days of segregation of blacks and whites in USA. Toilets for 'Blacks Only' and those for 'Whites Only'. And in South Africa during apartheid, blacks and whites couldn't mix. But they had a bit of difficulty with people of mixed race. Were they 'Non-Whites'? Or 'Almost Whites'?? Or 'A Slightly Off-White'?? One needed a shade card, or DNA profile, in effect, to prove exactly what one was. And actually, they were all Human Beings. Couldn't the same conclusion be reached about transgender people too? Just human beings like every one of us.

After all, we all choose how to present ourselves in public. I'm elderly, but I could dye my hair and have Botox, and go about looking 20 years younger. No-one would dream of asking me for my Birth Certificate to prove my actual age in, say, a teenage dress-shop. As long as I'm not carrying a Kalashnikov, I'm not toxic to society.

If a person feels happier and more in tune with their inner self by changing their sexual appearance and body form, nobody needs to challenge them. Same thing with transvestites. If they want to wear certain clothing why ever not? If a gay person wants to walk down the street hand-in-hand with their partner, it's lovely to see.
This daft terror of going into a loo and (shock! horror!) finding a transgender person walking in too is silly. They are NOT dangerous. They are NOT sexual predators.

I get so cross at some folk's discriminatory attitude. Relax. No-one will die. The most dangerous and worrying people in our society at present are the racist, homophobic and fundamentalist bigots. It's they who threaten our peace and our happiness.

I can honestly and truthfully say I wouldn't feel at all ill at ease if a man who had become a transgender woman entered a public toilet while I was washing my hands, and proceeded to comb their hair or go into a cubicle. It really really doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:27 AM

Old dude,
I am blonde, blue eyed and for all intrinsic purposes had relatives who hailed heil. Lets say that an American GI Jewish clerk did some magic with some paperwork in 1948 Europe and saved me from a Liebensborn orphanage. Growing up in America I heard the hateful or suspicious post war remarks in the barber shop and from relatives and neighbors. That my Dad had black hair and looked very Jewish and I had white hair was common question I received. Looking like a little storm trooper in 1951 made initial enemies of potential friends and unwanted friends of potential enemies. For these reasons I understand what immigrants feel in a unique way.

It is always about what you are taught. In this Shindleresque case its all nurture and no nature.

Teach your children well.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 04:58 AM

Thus speaks our self-styled gender expert. What a ridiculous post.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:51 AM

Joe, I'm sure you sincerely believe what you say, but that does not alter the fact that wishing to be regarded as a "man" or a "woman" is very different from actually being a man or a woman?

Everyone may not share your views on the issue and the issue is not really about "peeing" as I am sure you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 16 - 01:37 AM

Ake says: I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.

I guess, ake, that I have to admit that I might be uncomfortable sharing a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex. But I consider a transgender man to be a man, because that is the life he is living. And I consider a transgender woman to be a woman. I wouldn't dream of trying to dictate to them who they're supposed to be, and I'm appalled at the thought of somebody having to provide a birth certificate to get permission to use a lavatory.

Let the people pee.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:51 PM

That's it, John. I'm ashamed to say that, as a teacher of 25 years' standing, I never heard the issue raised even once. Jaysus, that does not make me feel good. But the signs are that awareness is increasing and that times are changing. Today we embrace and celebrate gay people. Maybe in thirty years' time we'll all be the same about transgender people. There will be plenty of akenaton-style obstacles along the way, no doubt. I stopped finding jokes about transgender people funny several years ago. Life's a work in progress, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: John P
Date: 15 May 16 - 08:22 PM

The ironically tragic part is that transgender people have always been among us, and have always used the bathroom that matches their internal identity. And hardly anyone noticed.

School children, of course, have a much harder time, since the school administrators and many of their classmates know what they were physically born as. And so many high school hetero boys are sexual pigs. The real problem isn't with transgendered people in the loo, it's "normal" people getting violent if they find out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 11:34 AM

I'd fully expect you to turn to the person next to you to tell them how cold the porcelain is, Dan 😉

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: olddude
Date: 15 May 16 - 11:11 AM

Anyone who wants to go into the stall next to me does so at their own risk, especially after I ate Mexican food Lol

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:27 AM

As this is leaving discussion and developing into the usual series of personal insults, by the usual person, I will leave it until heads become cooler.
Sorry D McG and others, perhaps I will return to the debate later.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 16 - 06:03 AM

"Well, I meet a lot of people during the day and have discussed this matter with people from my own area. I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.
All see it as an invasion of privacy."

And I wonder how many of these lots of people you discuss it with regard you as something as a weirdo obsessive for constantly bringing it up?

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:39 AM

Genital anomalies are estimated to occur in 1 in 4,500 births...

That's what comes of drawing lines at birth - nature doesn't, always. In fact, quite often compared to some other genetic problems.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:19 AM

But akenaton, one doesn't 'share a lavatory' with anyone. There is a toilet for each person, behind a door which closes and even locks. I doesn't matter who comes into the main entrance. They aren't actually watching proceedings are they? It's quite mad to wonder if they have a willy or not, or whether surgery has changed their body. It's nobody's business. One is there to wee, not to speculate about someone's genitals or lack of.
I think the key word is 'compassion'. It must be very difficult and upsetting for a transgender to have to navigate the prejudice and antagonism of others while coping with his/her own adjustment to their life. They aren't going to infect us with Ebola. They just want to wee.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:09 AM

"Best to draw the line at birth gender" - but do we have to draw a line in the first place? We have managed a great many centuries without feeling the need to introduce a law, being content with common sense by all parties most of the time, and the various laws about harassment and assault for the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:04 AM

It is ironic that Christians ...incapable of empathising...

I couldn't agree more. But it very much boils down to whether people are pharasical-rule-followers or trying to follow the over-arching principles. It be amongst the first to agree there are far too many of the former.

Subject: RE: BS: If you gotta P
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:59 AM

Well, I meet a lot of people during the day and have discussed this matter with people from my own area. I have yet to meet one who would be happy to share a lavatory with a person of the opposite sex.
All see it as an invasion of privacy.

Now even if these TG people believe they are women, they certainly are not, even after the surgery which is now available.

Removal of male genitalia does not make one "a woman".......being a woman is immensely more complicated than that.
What is meant, is that they wish to be regarded as a woman......that wish is hard to quantify, where is the line drawn etc, it is wide open to abuses of all sorts. best to draw the line at birth gender.