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Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin

DigiTrad:
AILEEN A ROON 7
AILEEN AROON
AILEEN AROON 3
AILEEN AROON 4
EILEEN AROON
EILEEN AROON 5
EILEEN AROON 6
EILEEN AROON NOTES


Related threads:
Eileen Aroon 2016 true translation of lyrics (18)
Lyr Req: Eileanor a Ruin / Eileen Aroon / etc. (12)
Lyr Add: Aileen Aroon (9)


keberoxu 17 May 16 - 05:00 PM
michaelr 17 May 16 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 17 May 16 - 07:23 PM
michaelr 17 May 16 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 17 May 16 - 08:19 PM
keberoxu 18 May 16 - 02:36 PM
keberoxu 18 May 16 - 02:58 PM
keberoxu 01 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM
keberoxu 02 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM
keberoxu 12 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM
michaelr 13 Jun 16 - 01:11 AM
keberoxu 03 Jul 16 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 16 - 05:49 PM
Felipa 03 Jul 16 - 06:12 PM
Felipa 03 Jul 16 - 08:32 PM
leeneia 04 Jul 16 - 12:25 PM
leeneia 04 Jul 16 - 12:28 PM
Felipa 04 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM
leeneia 05 Jul 16 - 11:18 AM
keberoxu 05 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM
leeneia 06 Jul 16 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 06 Jul 16 - 03:13 PM
keberoxu 06 Jul 16 - 05:53 PM
keberoxu 06 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 12 Jul 16 - 07:48 PM
keberoxu 13 Jul 16 - 01:56 PM
michaelr 13 Jul 16 - 03:25 PM
mg 13 Jul 16 - 04:01 PM
mg 13 Jul 16 - 04:34 PM
leeneia 13 Jul 16 - 11:03 PM
leeneia 16 Jul 16 - 09:46 AM
keberoxu 16 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 20 Sep 16 - 04:56 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: EIBHLIN A RUIN
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 May 16 - 05:00 PM

Although this subject is well outside my expertise -- my interest stems from listening to sound recordings of Irish musicians singing in Gaelic, and I am not schooled in either words or music in this tradition -- I want to get this little quest underway and to specify what is missing and what I am looking for.

Let's begin with the melody, the music. Two fairly well-known melodies have lyrics referring to the following:
Eibhlín a Rúin
Aileen Aroon
Eileen Aroon

Only ONE of the two melodies interests me. So, let me describe the song that I wish to eliminate from this thread. The tune itself is linked to and referenced with "Robin Adair" and "Lady Keppel." Again: this is the one I DON'T want here. The reason I eliminate this version, is that Mudcat's Digital Tradition, along with several Mudcat threads, already document the melody, the Gaelic/Irish lyrics, and the English translations for this version. There is no need to duplicate, on this thread, what is already well represented at Mudcat.
I have yet to locate any file, be it printed sheet music or a MIDIfile, with the other melody for Eibhlín a Rúin, which is modal and highly ornamented as in sean-nós tradition. This is the song I am looking for.

Now, the words?
If you pull up DigiTrad files with "Duca tu non vanna tu, Tuca me sni anna me," you are a little closer to the lyric that is missing. I say it is missing because the sung lyrics in quotes here are actually Gaelic taken down by a listener who has no clue how to spell Gaelic. Now, I ask you: are you aware of a DigiTrad file at the Mudcat Cafe which contains
"Dtiocfaidh tu nó 'n bhfanfaidh tú, Tiocfaidh me 's ni fhanfaidh me" ?
because I have searched in vain for this lyric with this spelling in a DigiTrad file --
and there are SEVEN Eileen-Aroon/Aileen-Aroon DigiTrad files at Mudcat.

In conclusion, one of the oldest of traditional Irish songs needs a little more loving care and attention here, and I hope you all will come to this song's aid. Many thanks.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: michaelr
Date: 17 May 16 - 06:58 PM

I don't know why you think there are two different airs for this song. The recording by Maire Ni Scolai you referred to on the other thread is quite obviously the same tune used for "Robin Adair". There are a number of clips of it on YouTube, including this Uillean pipes version by Tomas O Cannain.

In her book A Song for Ireland, Mary O'Hara gives the lyrics as follows (I won't try to to the diacritics):

Do chaith me mo bhroga leat, Eibhlin a run
Do chaith me mo bhroga leat, Eibhlin a run
Do chaith me mo bhroga leat,
Do ghearr sios na scorthai leat,
Mar shuil `sgo mbeinn posta leat, Eibhlin a run.

`A' dtiocfaidh tu no bhfanoidh tu, Eibhlin a run?
`A' dtiocfaidh tu no bhfanoidh tu, Eibhlin a run?'
`Tiocfai me `sni fhanoi me
Bi romham agus leanfad thu.'
O gra lem' chroi fe run is tu, Eibhlin a run.

Cead mile failte romhat, Eibhlin a run
Cead mile failte romhat, Eibhlin a run
Cead mile failte romhat
Failte `gus fiche romhat
O naoi gcead mile failte romhat, Eibhlin a run.


Does this satisfy?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 May 16 - 07:23 PM

much better


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: michaelr
Date: 17 May 16 - 08:03 PM

That's all you have to say? I spent an hour on that post ;-)

Do you still maintain there are two distinct airs?

Mary O'Hara also gives a translation, which I could type out if you're interested.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 May 16 - 08:19 PM

I'm not going to tell you how many hours I have spent on this quest; only that the song is worth every minute.

Where I particularly hear two different tunes, is, speaking relevant to the text, the melody that goes with
"Tiocfaidh me 's ni fhanfaidh me,/Bi romham agus leanfad tu"
and
"Do cheath me mo bhroga leat,/Do ghearr síos na scorthai leat"
and
"Cead mile failte romhat,/Failte agus fiche romhat" (Mary O'Hara sings this verse, Maire Ni Scolai omits it)

That phrase has what I would describe (classical music theory betrays itself here) as a flatted seventh, in which the seven of the eight notes in the scale points downward to the note before it instead of being a "leading tone" to the tonic above it. NOT present in any of the "Robin Adair" melodies I have seen printed or heard played. To me it makes a great difference, but that's only me talking.

Translation? The more, the merrier. Many thanks, michaelr.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:36 PM

Okay! THIS comes from the Foclóir na Nua-Ghaeilge archival project under the aegis of the Royal Irish Academy, a page on the RIA website, so this is online if you can dredge it up.

EIBHLÍN A RÚIN

[traditional Irish/Gaelic: Munster ("Tuadh-Mhumhain"), O'Harman (collector??)]

Do sheólfainn féin na gamhna leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do sheólfainn féin na gamhna leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do sheólfainn féin na gamhna leat
Amach fé(s) na gleanntaibh leat
D' fhonn ag dul i gcleamhnas leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin

Do raghainn-se go dtí an aonach leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do raghainn-se go dtí an aonach leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do raghainn-se go dtí an aonach leat
Is do tiochfainn abhaile i n-éinfheacht leat
D' fhonn go mbeinn im' aonar leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin

Do raghainn-se thar sáile leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do raghainn-se thar sáile leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Do raghainn-se thar sáile leat
I gcontabhairt mo bháidhte leat
D' fhonn me bheith páirteach leat
    a Eibhlín a rúin

An dtiocfaidh tu nó'n bhfanfaidh tú
    a Eibhlín a rúin
An dtiocfaidh tu nó'n bhfanfaidh tú
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Tiocfaidh me a's ní fhanfaidh me
Sáthuigh romham is leanfad tu
Grád lem' chroidhe a gan fhios tu
    a Eibhlín a rúin

Ceud míle fáilte romhat   
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Ceud míle fáilte romhat   
    a Eibhlín a rúin
Ceud míle fáilte romhat
Fáilte agus fiche romhat
?? ?? ceud míle fáilte romhat
    a Eibhlín a rúin


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:58 PM

Regarding the Digital Tradition database:

Aileen/Eileen Aroon, files 1 through 7, do not contain the Gaelic/Irish lyrics properly spelled out, as they have been submitted in posts on this thread. Files 2 and 3 (spelled Aileen) do have the evidence, printed centuries ago, of an ear-witness who had no Gaelic and who wrote down the lyrics he heard, in a kind of Italianate dictation-by-ear; even then, the verses are somewhat incomplete. File Aileen-Aroon4 has an English translation. None of the files are spelled Eibhín a Rúin.

Joe Offer has explained to me that presently the Digital Tradition is kind of suspended; access to the files continues, but no submissions to the database at this time. For updates on song lyrics and the research and publication of same, we Mudcatters must rely on the threads in the forum.   Thanks everybody.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM

Dear me, this thread still needs a little more care and attention.

Okay: the Gaelic text from FNG at RIA. The collector/editor's name is Anglicized to James Hardiman, he is the editor of "Irish Minstrelsy", a landmark book of Gaelic lyrics with English translations published in the 19th century (1800's); in this book, there are no less than two texts for "Eibhlín a Rúin," the first of which is just labelled "Eibhlín a Rúin" and corresponds to the Robin Adair/Lady Keppel melodic line ( this is made clear, by Hardiman, in copious footnotes). Hardiman titles the second text "Old Eibhlín a Rúin" , and this second text is clearly the one that the non-Irish listener erroneously spelled "duca tu non vanna tu / Tuca me sni anna me," and has been sung by Mary O'Hara and Máire Ní Scolaí in the recording studio.

I did not print "Hardiman" in the earlier post, for the simple reason that the post documents a lyric on a webpage, at the FNG/RIA online database, which is in Gaelic, and so the name "Hardiman" is instead given in Gaelicized form which confused the heck out of me. As the first post states, I am in over my head here. My apologies.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM

"Quite obviously the same tune..."
I ought to qualify my response to the response early in this thread.
That the two "Eibhlín a Rúin" melodies are similar enough to be closely related, is an argument with which I agree, actually. There are noteworthy similarities between the two tunes throughout, and I have no quarrel with any statement that says as much.

Calling them the same tune, however, with that I beg to differ. The differences between the two melodies are as striking as the things they have in common.

In the end, it seems to me, this also comes down to the lyrics, which after all was why I started the thread to begin with -- the emphasis on the Gaelic words. And honestly, the specific Gaelic text that has my attention, while I have seen it linked to both "Eibhlín a Rúin" melodies, seems to be most strongly associated with the "older" tune that does not contain a "leading tone." Okay, that's enough discussion from me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM

James Hardiman's "Irish Minstrelsy," the 19th-century anthology, has been referenced here for its version of "Old Eibhlín a Rúin." In the 1920's, the Irish Folk-song Society, in its journals, took on the challenge of this song, listing it under the title
"Eylín a Riúin." More interesting are the Society members' remarks, published in the journal.

"L.E.B." notes:
Hardiman in Irish Minstrelsy (pp. 210, 264, 328, 356) gives older and newer Irish texts with translations. In his voluminous notes, he quite solemnly assigns a thirteenth-century origin to this piece, supporting his opinion by means of arguments which ought long ago to have been allowed to rest in oblivion. [endquote]

"A.M.F." notes:
As to the air, the controversy about its Irish or Scottish origin might become profitable if the disputant musicians would apply themselves to the discovery of the finest FOLK version. [endquote]

Also indexed for their versions of the song:
Bunting, 1840; Petrie, no. 814; Moffat, Minstrelsy of Ireland; Joyce, Irish Music and Song; Daly/Sigerson, Poets and Poetry of Munster, Second Series.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:11 AM

Still talking to yourself, I see.

Have you found more evidence for the tune being different?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 02:26 PM

Mudcat's Digital Traditions files, as previously posted, document the efforts of people to record the older of the lyrics. These historical published printings demonstrate obstacles to accurate documentation of the text. One, people who speak Gaelic but have never been taught to write it down. Two, people who neither speak nor write Gaelic who attempt, regardless, to take dictation by ear.

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=155
http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=154

The preceding URLs link to the Digital Tradition files which give the text that I was looking for from the beginning. These files include bibliography for their historical sources. The drawback to these versions is that when they were printed, nobody bothered to spell the Gaelic as it is correctly spelled/written.

While the following quote is not about "Eibhlín a Rúin," the remarks confirm the problem of documenting Irish Gaelic during a period when, for several reasons, proper written publishing of and instruction in this language were discouraged.

Douglas Hyde's endnotes, on page 417 of Volume II,
Abhráin Diadha Chúige Connacht /
The Religious Songs of Connacht, 1906
referring back to page 397, line 3.

"What a misery that the Galway people of fifty years ago were driven into writing this jargon! As the National Schools refused to teach them how to write their own language, and yet were not able to teach them how to express themselves in English, the poor people tried to write according to the analogy of the English letters and sounds, the only thing which they had ever been taught. Their letters home from America used to be written in this frightful hotch-potch, everyone spelling for himself. It ruined all literature in Mayo and Galway, But Munster never lost its Irish traditions."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 05:49 PM

Another song to Eileen Aroon ( which tune I'll leave to problematic people to discern). My mother used to sing it (to the tune of Eileen Aroon). That doesn't make it any better than it is.

Robin Adair
by Lady Caroline Keppel

What's this dull town to me
Robin's not near
What was't I wish'd to see
What wish'd to hear
Where all the joy and mirth
Made this town heaven on earth
Oh, they're all fled with thee
Robin Adair
What made th' assembly shine
Robin Adair
What made the ball sae fine
Robin was there
What when the play was o'er
What made my heart so sore
Oh, it was parting with
Robin Adair
But now thou'rt cold to me
Robin Adair
But now thou'rt cold to me
Robin Adair
Yet he I loved so well
Still in my heart shall dwell
Oh, I can ne'er forget
Robin Adair
printed in Cole


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: Felipa
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 06:12 PM

also called
Eibhlín a Rún aka Eilín a Rún is also called Eileanór or Eleanór A Rún
Tune attributed to Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh

I'm with Michael R. To my mind the sean nós singing of this song uses the same basic tune as Robin Adair, but treats the tune differently. As some traditional singers even change a tune just slightly from verse to verse, I don't think the "same tune" is different from the "identical tune". And often musical notation for a song just gives us the bare bones of the tune.

You can listen to recordings of the song and pick the tune variant and style you prefer. So I don't really understand what you are looking for Keberoxu.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: Felipa
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:32 PM

18 May lyrics - approximate translation

I would herd cattle with you, Eibhlín my intended [or - my secret love]
I wish to make a match with you [to marry you], Eibhlín

I would go to a fair with you ...I would like to be alone with you

I would go overseas with you ... in danger [modern spelling contúirt] of drowning with you, I wish to be together/involved with you

Will you come or will you stay
I will come, I won't stay - I will follow you, love of my heart without you knowing (Gradh - modern spelling grá]

A hundred thousand welcomes to you, Eibhlín, a welcome and twenty to you, 100,000 welcomes to you, Eibhlín my love


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:25 PM

Hello, Keberaxu

If you are looking for a tune, here's a good site to know about:

abc.notation.com

I went to it and searched for Eileen Aroon. The site brought up 17 known tunes, and most of them fell into two categories. One is a tune which starts with two eighth notes and hops up and down some. The other starts with quarter notes and climbs straight up. There are 17 versions of two tunes because they are in different keys or have slight variations in the notes.

On the first or second page, there is a little player which lets you listen to the piece.   

I think if you go to the site and do the search, you will find the tune you are looking for.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:28 PM

The first tune, in four flats, is just #6 ornamented within an inch of its life.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: Felipa
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 01:50 PM

yes, the Gaylick spellings of DT #154 and 155 are rather useless. I've also added some lyrics now to to the Eileanór a Rún/Eileen Aroon discussion at http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=72299#1243622


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:18 AM

Keberaxu, you said you were looking for a tune. I gave you some tunes. Where art thou?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 12:01 PM

Gnashing my teeth, wherever I am. Let me be specific here.

I started this whole thing because of the Máire Ní Scolaí recording. This thread already has a link to her 1938 HMV recorded performance of "Eibhlin a Ruin"; you can find it in the thread's second post/message, it is the blue clicky link on Máire Ní Scolaí's name in the post's opening sentence.

Every suggestion that is made to me, I refer back, right or wrong, to THAT recording, because that is the performance that got my attention in the first place. So, the deductive way to proceed, is to go through all the variants, by lyric or by melody or both, and match them to the recording. Sound simple?

I don't know why I am failing in my attempts here, because I know how to read music and I have a trained ear. I ought to be able to match things up.

When I look at all the abcnotation files, I find the first part of the tune, or close enough to it: the melody set to the words

A' dtiocfaidh tu nó 'n bhfanfaidh tú, a Eibhlín a rúin
or, as in the DigiTrad files,
Duca tu non vanna tu, Aileen Aroon

But the melody that stumps me, is sung with THESE words in the lyric.

Tiocfaidh me a 's ní fhanfaidh me
or
Tuca me sni anna me

This latter phrase is extremely distinctive from the melodic standpoint, most particularly when played on the pipes.
Now, why can't I find that distinctive phrase in the music notation files?!

so, that's my problem....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 11:19 AM

That blue clicky opens a video of Eileen Aroon taken from what looks like a vinyl LP called Amrain Ghra. (sp) It has a beautiful cover with cosmos flowers on it. Recordings from 1938 don't look like that. And I don't hear a special phrase in it -just a variant of the hoppy tune from abc notation.com

Abc notation site will give you the whole tune. Just keep clicking. Given the bulk of the tune, you can probably work out the phrase from 1938 which tickles your fancy.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:13 PM

When I finally locate what I hear in the recording, the descending flatted-seventh passage, printed in a music-notation version of "Eileen Aroon" by whatever name, this thread will be the first to hear about it; until then, I will keep looking.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:53 PM

This is just to confirm that I have been through the search results on the suggested website.

By the way the address is abcnotation.com because when I attempted abc.notation.com as offered in the July 4 post, that URL failed to get me to the website.

I went through all seventeen pieces of printed music that were search results for Eileen Aroon/Aileen Aroon/Eibhlin A Rúin/Eilionóir a Rúin song titles.

Sixteen out of seventeen of these printed songs failed to show that melodic flatted seventh on the first syllable of the word "fhanfaidh," which by my calculation would be in the tenth bar/measure of the tune. What they showed was simply something different, I don't say that the printed songs were incorrect, not at all -- they just had melodies with phrases that are different than the phrase which I hear in recordings.

Number 15, "Eilionóir a Rúin," in measure 21, of the seventeen search results, was the only version which came anywhere close to the descending melodic passage with a flatted seventh on the first syllable of "fhanfaidh."

As stated in an earlier post, uillean pipers make much of the flatted seventh. Perhaps I ought to give up looking at publications for singers, and look at piper's music publications instead. But that still doesn't tell me where Ní Scolaí, and O'Hara a generation later, found that melody for
"tiocfaidh me 's ní fhanfaidh me."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM

Regarding the "Amhráin Ghrá" anthology from which the YouTube "video" of "Eibhlín a Rúin" was copied.

"Eibhlín a Rúin," recorded by mezzo-soprano Máire Ní Scolaí and pianist Duncan Morrison, is track number 3 on "Amhráin Ghrá."
The Gael-Linn recording company issued "Amhráin Ghrá," number CEFCD 201, on compact disc in 2011. The anthology songs have these things in common: all tracks are songs; all the lyrics are Gaelic; all the singers are women; and every recording either was acquired by Gael Linn from some outside source and re-released by Gael Linn, or else was Gael Linn's property from the beginning having been recorded at some time in the Gael Linn studios.

With the exception of the three songs sung by Marjorie Courtney on the "Amhráin Ghrá" compact disc, the performances are re-releases, having been previously issued by Gael-Linn on earlier publications. As all of the recordings are before 1990, generally their earlier issues were on a format other than compact disc, with a few exceptions.

Reg Hall's recently published "A Few Tunes of Good Music," which lists the discography of numerous recordings of traditional Irish music over a limited period of years, includes a page or two documenting recordings made by Máire Ní Scolaí with pianist Duncan Morrison. The list of songs on these recordings includes "Eibhlín a Rúin."

Gael-Linn first released Máire Ní Scolaí's recorded performance of "Eibhlín a Rúin" along with her recordings of twenty other songs on a vinyl LP in 1971, as Gael-Linn number CEF 029. At that moment, Ní Scolaí, whose dates are 1909 - 1985, would have been sixty-two years old. The sleeve notes to Gael-Linn's 1971 LP disclose that the tracks on the LP's Side Two, including "Eibhlín a Rúin," are re-issues of HMV singles originally recorded in the 78 RPM format.

In "A Few Tunes of Good Music," Reg Hall's discography confirms that six songs, including "Eibhlín a Rúin," were recorded in London for HMV by Ní Scolaí and Morrison on 20 August 1938, when the singer would have been twenty-nine years old.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:48 PM

Don't know why "chuck" won't let me log in to Mudcat, but a guest posting will have to do for now.

From the original post, this thread had two objectives, stemming from one recorded performance. As detailed in my 06 July 2016 post, this is a recording that was first released as an HMV 78 RPM vinyl single, and has since been subject to more than one re-release, the most recent on Gael-Linn's CEFCD201, a compact disc published in 2011. This thread's second post has a link to a "video" containing this recording sung by Máire Ní Scolaí.

Working from the recording of "Eibhlín a Rúin," the first objective was an accurate version of the song lyrics. In this regard, Mudcat's Digital Traditions disappoints, because the lyric as given in more than one "Eileen/Aileen Aroon" file is inaccurate, spelled out phonetically rather than with the correct Gaelic spelling. Later posts to this thread improved the matter, without changing what is in the Digital Traditions files, by contributing more accurate lyrics for what James Hardiman's "Irish Minstrelsy" called "Old Eibhlín A Rúin." Thus the first objective is attained.

The second objective was the tune as recorded by both Máire Ní Scolaí and uillean piper Tomás Ó Canainn.

If you have an allmusic.com account, which I have not, you can listen online to a tune as follows:

title: Robin Adair / folksong arrangement
first words: O had I a cave
poet: Robert Burns
composer: traditional
arranger: Franz Josef Haydn
composition: no. H.31a/202
arrangement: voice, violin, violoncello, keyboard

http://www.allmusic.com/performance/robin-adair-o-had-i-a-cave-folk-song-for-voice-violin-cello-keyboard-h-31a-202-mq0000870845

This latter song, the melody of which I have referred to by such names as "Robin Adair" and "Lady Keppel," also has Gaelic lyrics. It is often heard with an English translation. Is Robert Burns' lyric independent of this tune originally? That's a question in itself.

From the original post on this thread, my position has been that the Haydn/Robert Burns/Lady Keppel/Robin Adair melody is distinct from the melody in which Tomás Ó Canainn so clearly plays what would be called, in the American vernacular, a "blue note."

To each his own judgment, and from that post to this, I still hear two distinct, albeit related, melodies.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 01:56 PM

I feel discouraged that this thread has been a disappointment to the musicians who respond. Here, and on a related thread, I am accused of "a kind of monologue" and "talking to yourself," and of the suggestions of the other posters being "generally ignored." This is very different than what I had in mind with my opening post.

What, michaelr et alia, would you have preferred me to say instead?

Perhaps you wanted me to post:
Thank you michaelr for pointing out that the song recorded by Mary O'Hara, Tomás Ó Canainn (pipes, no lyrics) and Máire Ní Scolaí is "quite obviously the same tune," as it is a fact that all three recordings perform the same tune. I apologize for not bothering to agree with that fact before now, as it is certainly true. I did respond to that particular post and then you objected to my response as if you expected, what, applause? How did I disappoint you, michaelr?

Instead, we have arrived at a kind of impasse. There are different contributing factors to the impasse. One such factor is a stalemate between stubbornness -- mine -- and impatience -- someone else's. This is an old familiar challenge for me. When faced with impatience in someone else's response, my stubbornness becomes more instead of less, I can certainly admit to that.

Is my stubborn adherence to the investigation, still ongoing, introduced in my first post, the thing that is meant by "talking to yourself?"

As to my stubborn inclination, I may confess that what I most fear about meeting a challenge, is to be ill-prepared or even unprepared altogether. When I opened this thread with the original post, I tried to demonstrate that I was prepared in the way that I laid out my argument. Approval and agreement, much less applause, was a secondary concern at best: I had set myself a task to complete, I was having trouble doing it by myself, and I welcomed the attempts and efforts of others. If you disagreed with my position, or expressed dislike about the way that I set about my mission or the results that I report back, such a comment would change my position under one condition only: that my position had been proved wrong.

My argument in the original post, perhaps I have phrased it poorly somehow. Just as I think that "quite obviously the same tune used for 'Robin Adair' " is at best a misleading statement, and perhaps implies haste, which haste I associate with impatience.

It is interesting that, of all the recordings online of "Eibhlín a Rúin," that of Tomás Ó Canainn should be singled out, considering that the published, printed collection of "Slow Airs" containing "Eibhlín a Rúin" was collected and edited by Ó Canainn himself; so this musician has committed himself to actually spelling out and disseminating a specific written-out version of this tune, which may then be compared and contrasted with, say, the seventeen tunes at abcnotation.com or with the tunes at, what's that other site, tunearch at Wiki or something.

I'm really sorry if my approach gives offense, as no offense is intended.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:25 PM

Jeez, keb, which part of ";-)" don't you understand?

Your posts of the past few months concerning songs in Irish do suggest a certain obsessiveness on your part. That does not bother me. Sorry if I came across as flippant.

That said, I really disagree with your assertion that the two tunes have as many differences as they have elements in common.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: mg
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 04:01 PM

I was just in the process of looking for decent words to this tune. Love the tune, hate the words I have seen, about maidens fair etc. Although I do like the verse about love is a fixed star...

One person on an Irish board translated it as herding cows in one of the verses...

From everything I read Eileen precedes Robin...

The two lyrics I think most commonly used and found on you tube etc. are grating and are hardly translations...just new words to an old tune.

Great story that the song was written in 1386 for an Eleanor Cavanaugh..lover came to her wedding, played her this song, which includes lines will you come or stay..something like that..she supposedly got her father et al drunk and eloped with writer of said lyrics. Those are the lyrics I want, true story or not.

Well, I shall start a separate thread so as not to confuse people further.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: mg
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 04:34 PM

As stated in an earlier post, uillean pipers make much of the flatted seventh. Perhaps I ought to give up looking at publications for singers, and look at piper's music publications instead. But that still doesn't tell me where Ní Scolaí, and O'Hara a generation later, found that melody for
"tiocfaidh me 's ní fhanfaidh me."

--------

Probably because it had been in the musical tradition for hundreds of years already...it is like one of us looking for a written version of yankee doodle. we think we know the definitive version and there is a very standard version we mostly keep to...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 11:03 PM

If you want to play flatted notes such as Maire Ni Scolai sings, then do this. Go here:

http://www.oldmusicproject.com/AA3Sheet/Sheet-0301-0400/0392-EileenAroon1st.gif

See the F#'s in measures 8, 9 and 10? Change them to F naturals.
The rest of it won't be exactly the same, but have at it. It will be fun.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: A oganaigh an chuil cheangailte
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 09:46 AM

Hello, keberoxu. Last week you were looking for music to Eileen Aruin with flatted 7th notes. Did you ever see my post (the last on the thread) which explained how to play them?

You can bring the thread back using a box near the top of the home page.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: A oganaigh an chuil cheangailte
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM

Glad for the post in question, leeneia, for future reference. At present my search will be confined to music in print which explicitly notates the mixolydian mode with its flatted seventh, documenting the less diatonic version of the melody. Not done looking yet. While Máire Ní Scolaí was noted for song collecting herself, she also relied often on written printed arrangements for performing, especially with accompaniment written out, as for the piano. In truth her "Eibhlín a Rúin" is a voice-piano arrangement which, to my ear, sounds as if it has been executed exactly as the arranger wrote it down, as one would do in the concert halls where Ní Scolaí and her pianist often performed (Jim Carroll's reference to the Oireachtas is apropos here). When I am satisfied that my search through editions of printed music is as comprehensive as is practical all these years after the date of the recording, then your post on the other thread will be useful.


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Subject: Lyr Req: Eibhlin a Ruin
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 04:56 PM

In a sense, my work here is done. The original post that started this thread, describes my dilemma then: a studio recording introduced me to this song. The mezzo-soprano singing "Eibhlín a Rúin" was Máire Ní Scolaí, and the vinyl 78 RPM single was recorded and issued by HMV just before the Second World War. I was struck by the combination -- a pleasant combination for a classically trained pianist/accompanist like myself -- of the traditional song, with its fluid rhythms, highly ornamented melody, and Gaelic lyrics, with an interpretation on voice and piano by two musicians who were obviously not traditional musicians in any sense but two concert artists bringing a traditional art form to the concert platform and recording studio. My dilemma was that the lyrics which I could find in print, for the most part did not at all match what Ní Scolaí was clearly singing. What were those lyrics, and where was the text preserved?

I also wondered where the melody, with its orientation toward modes rather than diatonic/leading-tone classical scales, was preserved.

That this thread has posed these questions for all to consider, is half the battle. Posts on this thread demonstrate some disagreements as to how to answer the questions, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not completely satisfied with the results of the searches I have made myself, and will probably keep my unanswered question in the back of my mind, to recall on occasion.


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