BS: thoughts on change

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:26 PM

would it however kill a human being

Oh, absolutely - its a common military round; hence the NATO designation. "Sporting" rounds can also be had with expanding/hollow-point bullets wch are more deadly.

Sad fact is, compared to most animals, human beings are quite easy to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:41 PM

So Greg, if the ammunition is too small for hunting, would it however kill a human being? If not, then whatever do people actually do with these guns? Just wave them about a bit?

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

Can just anyone in US buy these items from the catalogue and have them delivered by post

Not since the Kennedy assassination.

But one can walk into a gun store and pick one up, no problem. & if the store hasn't one in stock, they can order one from the manufacturer or a distributer for you.

You surely wouldn't need to let loose 30 rounds on one animal (even a bear)

They're 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington calibre - way too small to hunt animals much bigger than woodchucks - certainly not deer or bear, and are illegal to use for large game in must states.

They actually look like overgrown small boys having a game of soldiers.

Spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 12:44 PM

I had a long look at that Bushmaster website, but the other one is banned from being accessed sadly.
I know absolutely nothing about guns whatsoever, but I did wonder what exactly are these guns intended for? I thought perhaps for hunting, but the catalogue includes bayonets (!) and cartridge thingies that have 30 rounds in them. You surely wouldn't need to let loose 30 rounds on one animal (even a bear) And all the people modelling the items look more like terrorists than sportsmen. They actually look like overgrown small boys having a game of soldiers. But it isn't a game is it?
Very chilling for an elderly Brit to peruse.

But look at what happened to poor Jo Cox MP. Actually gunned down in the street. In Yorkshire. (I believe the killer is mentally ill, but even so, where did he get the information and the materials to make the gun?)
Can just anyone in US buy these items from the catalogue and have them delivered by post Joe? Or does one need Police clearance first?

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

it's cool to play soldier.

Ya mean it isn't?

Bushmaster is hardly the only outfit pushing that message, Joe. Its become pretty deeply ingrained in a substantial segment of the U.S. population.

See Here

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

The weapon used to kill students at Sandy Hook was a Bushmaster AR-15. At the time, the Bushmaster Website was really in bad taste. Doesn't seem quite so bad now, but it still is clear that the company wants to tell civilians that it's cool to play soldier.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:21 AM

THIS is germaine to the gun discussion.

RE: This is verging on a civil war in some of the southern states.

The Civil War 1861-1865 never ended in some of the Southern states. I would recommend Douglas R. Egerton's book "The Wars Of Reconstruction" New York, Bloomsbury Press 2014 and Douglas A. Blackmon's "Slavery By Another Name" New York, Doubleday, 2008 to anyone who would like more perspective on this.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 07:44 AM

I'm sure it isn't representative Stu. A documentary shows a limited, tiny vignette of a small area/section of the society of a country.
One might imagine that the UK was populated solely by drunks and football hooligans if one merely watched documentaries.

And this particular programme was principally concerned with investigating the KKK in some of the southern states. The gun angle was a side-issue in a way. America is absolutely enormous, and there must be a myriad of different people and environments there.
My husband is desperate to visit the States, so hopefully we may arrive there one day!

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: maeve
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 07:06 AM

Thank you, Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

I would say that a lot of what you see isn't representative of the Americans I know. With one exception, I've never met anyone who in the US who was a 'gun nut', although this might be to do with the demographic as most of my friends are palaeontologists or interested in palaeontology. In most of the US that I've visited I didn't give the presence of guns much thought as they weren't in the open even in N. Carolina and Virginia (although the museum had a 'no guns' sign on the entrance doors).

Whist out in the field we found evidence of gun use though, including 9mm rounds from an automatic weapon, and shot up objects like plastic bins etc.

I love the US, and outside of the cities the people are brilliant, always very welcoming, chatty and refreshingly polite and it hurts to see the country suffering the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM

Wasn't it depressing Stu, as you say? I felt so sorry for the children. What a life. I compared it to our village children enjoying the summer in freedom and safety and felt very sad.

I have never visited the USA, and I fondly imagined that the southern states had changed over the years regarding racism. On the contrary, it appears that there is a situation of almost war between the whites and the blacks. Just as in South Africa, whereas at one time the blacks were subjugated and treated abominably (ie apartheid) they have now rebelled and become highly dangerous, fuelled by the fear, attacks and aggression of many of the white population. There are quite a few parallels between the two countries actually.

The ignorance was astonishing. A white racist American actually declared on camera that the black people were inferior genetically and should have stayed in the jungle sitting under a tree, and wished they'd 'go home'. (I imagine he'd forgotten that their ancestors had been forcibly abducted in Africa and brought unwillingly to America to become slaves.) If he'd said that on camera in UK he'd have been arrested.

I can't see a way out of all this.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:21 AM

"I watched the second part of a documentary on BBC 1 last night, in which Dan Murdoch (British) was exploring Black Power in USA."

I saw this documentary too, and it was profoundly depressing. I really have no idea how this entire situation can be tackled, although I was disturbed by the chap in the kevlar vest with the gun, who was showing all this stuff in front of his little kids. It can't be a good thing to expose them to weapons and such fear at an early age... it was heartbreaking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:14 PM

Where are you "safe from gun violence"? Sadly, the places I can think of are the places where it has already happened. First of all, only copycat shooters would head for an existing mass-killing site. Secondly, where it has happened, some survivors would be about, and between them and the changes that would be made (as in a school setting), they would be too well prepared to respond in order to be attractive to a shooter.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:27 AM

I think we have to distinguish between 'mass shooters' who are likely to be mentally ill, bear a huge grudge or have been brainwashed by some lunatic fringe group, and the everyday killings of individuals by Police, gang members, drug dealers and their clients etc. The former do cause large numbers of deaths in one attack, but the latter (I should imagine) are responsible for far more deaths in total.

The first step I suppose is to outlaw semi-automatic rifles (not sure of the correct term, but those that fire lots of bullets in quick succession) and restrict ownership to simple pistols. But nobody would agree to that. Most folk would hang on to their fancy weapons and hide them carefully from the Law. They seemed so proud of their huge guns on that documentary; they were obviously a status symbol and nobody would willingly relinquish that, no matter how one legislates.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

IF he could not have acquired a rapid fire assault weapon, he might have killed 'only' 3-4 with his handgun...

I think it goes a step beyond that:

Most mass shooters do not delude themselves that they are going to walk away. They either accept the fact that they're going to be killed by the police or plan on killing themselves at the end of their sprees. So, they must ask themselves, "If I'm going to die, how many people do I need to take with me for it to be an 'even trade'." I daresay that, for most shooters, the figure is in the range that can only be achieved by using high-capacity semi-automatic weapons. So, removing such weapons would not merely have the effect of reducing casualties during shooting incidents, it would eliminate many such incidents from occuring at all. A deranged person who is willing to trade his own life for the lives of thirty people may well not be willing to make such a trade for the lives of three or four.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM

I agree, Jim. Rampant racism is obviously a huge catalyst in both countries.
Racism occurs in UK too of course, and the weapons of choice are usually knives, as I understand it. The thing is, while dangerous, knives, although illegal in UK, haven't the same killing power as automatic rifles.
I have watched an interview with black young men in London on TV, and they too stated they carried knives for 'protection'. They were basically very afraid.
But it could just as easily be Catholics v Protestants (as was the case in Northern Ireland)
It all boils down to Hatred and Fear. The only remedies are Love and Reassurance. But someone has to make the first move, thus making themselves vulnerable. I don't think I'd be brave enough to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:18 AM

"(white) South African couple.... (black) thieves"
Situations like this I find the most worrying of all, when people of one colour, religion whatever arm themselves against a problem they identify as caused by somebody "different"
That moves gun violence onto another plane altogether, with one racial group arming itself against another and calling it "defence".
I can understand why that happens in a country like South Africa which has not long emerged from a State of being divided oppressively on racial grounds, but I hope this isn't the case in the U.S. or is it.
The disturbing number of killings of blacks by police suggest that it might be.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 02:34 AM

I forgot to add, I made friends with a (white) South African couple with four children who were in UK for a year. They described to me a situation very similar to that in USA, one of fear and self-defence. They lived in the countryside and were afraid of attacks from (black) thieves and killers. Their arsenal of weapons sounded phenomenal but they assured me it was 'necessary'. My own cousin in SA (a nursing sister) actually carried a pistol in her handbag at all times!

The thing is, if everyone is terrified of a gun attack by everyone else, they will want to be armed, and will use their weapons without hesitation if startled or confronted. I can't see how this vicious circle can be broken. No-one would agree to go about unarmed in these dangerous circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM

I watched the second part of a documentary on BBC 1 last night, in which Dan Murdoch (British) was exploring Black Power in USA. (The first part dealt with the KKK) It was horrifying how trigger-happy the (white) policemen are when apprehending a black person. There were several video clips of officers gunning down unarmed black men for a traffic offence or for running away, and one in which a mentally ill young man was shot dead at his front door. The black people have (somewhat understandably) armed themselves to the teeth. This is verging on a civil war in some of the southern states.

The most chilling scenes were of a black father of ten who had five of his young children in his people-carrier, while he drove along wearing a bullet-proof jacket and with an automatic rifle (I think, I don't know the names of guns, but it was huge, like a Kalashnikov) on his lap. He was, he said, defending himself and his children against the white Police.

The whole thing is escalating, with each side arming themselves with more and more weapons. Everyone is terrified and angry. However can a solution be found to this utter lunacy?

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Janie
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:28 AM

I realize I did not say why I found them so scary. What was so scary to me was their absolute certainty. I and others could understand and respect their point of view. Even though we did not share their view we understood it as valid. But they could not acknowledge the validity of our/my points-of-view as also valid, and were absolutely and rationally, though not reasonably, closed to compromise. Arrogant and paternalistic. Absolute.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Janie
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 12:00 AM

Last summer I participated for a couple of months in a moderated discussion/project by invitation from the Public Insight Network aka PIN as part of a News21 project. Google News21 and the Public Insight Network for more information about those entities if you are interested and in the USA.

It was an eye-opening experience for me. I came away from it much more educated about guns, much more educated about what informs, or doesn't inform peoples positions on guns in the USA, and also came away from it, for awhile, with some sense of despair.

There were some small subset of people at the extremes of each side who were primarily irrational thinkers. Not irrational in the sense of being mentally ill, but their positions were primarily based on emotional thinking. There was a large subset of people who were not anti any firearms and were not anti any regulation of gun ownership or types of guns. But that subset, while deep, was also very wide with respect to what and who and how regulations related to guns make sense, or are even acceptable to them.

The people who ended up really ultimately scaring me, however, in terms of whether or not some kind of meaningful gun regulation is possible in the USA during my lifetime or the lifetime of my son, were some few very articulate, very bright, very well trained in how to handle guns who were first amendment ideologues and who see themselves as protectors of others, with a tiny edge of paranoia and mistrust. Plus more than a little arrogance. A very tiny edge of what I view as paranoia, but I am generally oblivious to risk in 'everyday' circumstances. Folks not 'looking for trouble' or paranoid in a pathological sense, but have perhaps lived lives either in the military or living on ranches where self-sufficiency is very important and some natural risks are common, and this has shaped their over-all view. For the most part very libertarian. And nearly all from the West. Most were gun safety instructors.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:39 PM

"The National Rifle Association calls the AR-15 "America's rifle."" NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:00 PM

The cover story from Sports Illustrated about Frank Hall intervening in the Chardon High School shootings in Ohio, if I can find it here, gave this exchange within his own family of origin.

Quote:
He finally had to say something to the men in his extended family, a comment that he knew might not go down well.
"Why does anyone need a semiautomatic weapon?" he asked one day at a gathering.
"You can't convince me that a civilian needs a weapon like that with all those bullets in a clip."
A family member started to say something about the possibility of a dictator, taking over the country; but then fell silent along with everybody else.
Endquote

http://www.si.com/vault/2013/06/24/106336753/frank-hall-american-hero

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 09:45 AM

Not sure which his sicker - him and his policies or those who would even consider him as a possible President.

Those who would even consider him as a possible President win hands down. And there's millions of the brain-dead assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

I did not mean to suggest that this nut job was associated with ISIS, only inspired by their call to arms, and I see no connection to Islam, other than from a propaganda point of view on both sides, theirs and Trumps. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

I see that Trump has already leapt on this tragedy to use the dead as a platform for his election campaign with his call to ban all immigartion from Muslim Countries.
Not sure which his sicker - him and his policies or thos who would even consider him as a possible President.
"Nurse - the screens - we appear to have a very sick society on our hands!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:51 AM

I hope a president is elected who decides to take action and to at least limit gun ownership to weapons that can't be used for mass killings. we had a huge buy back of weapons in Australia, in 96, so people with too many were required to give back their surplus. But we don't have a constitution here that enshrines the right to bear arms.

I think Bill's comment is good - "As one expert said: IF he could not have acquired a rapid fire assault weapon, he might have killed 'only' 3-4 with his handgun... we have to start somewhere limiting the firepower. "

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM

"So you've proved he was an ISIS terrorist and not some bloke with guns who went out of his mind."
He was described on the news last night as being very mentally disturbed.
To some people, anybody who believes in invisible beings are mentally disturbed, in which case, there are a lot of nutters out there, but it's quite likely that this feller is genuinely mentally ill.
There are those of course who will use this tragedy as a chance to take a pop at a religion that is not theirs or that they don't approve of, but then again, they might be mentally ill too.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Janie
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:18 PM

I don't know how change might happen, or what direction any change may take.

Because of our very different histories, what has worked and is politically possible in the UK is not a sociopolitical option in the USA.

There is a vast 'middle' of people in the USA that support some regulation of gun ownership, but it is a remarkably diverse middle with little focus, and therefore ineffective politically.

The NRA is a very strong, on-message, and well-financed lobby that plays to fears of 'slippery slope, has a terrific propaganda machine that has proved effective for many years, and deep pockets that can pretty much insure sufficient fear mongering, targeted political marketing, and either distribution or withholding of campaign contributions such that they control, and will continue to control, the conversation about guns for a very long time.

The NRA has a very clear and unambiguous agenda. No restrictions on who may own guns at all, and no restrictions on types of guns available for sale to the general public.

That is not a view shared by most citizens, including, probably, some significant number of dues paying NRA members. However, there is little uniformity among the vast middle regarding what and who should be regulated or restricted. Not surprising, given whst a huge landmass we encompass with large, urban areas and also broad swathes of very rural areas, and everything in between.

It is not surprising to me that people in the UK, and possibly all of western Europe, don't get the complexity around guns in the USA. I can't say I 'get it' myself, but I do know that history, geography, vast rural spaces, etc. all contribute.

More later. Mebbe. Stopping in mid-stream of consciousness cuz I have to get to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:31 PM

A work colleague, who now feels overwhelming guilt that he didn't see the signs, described him as a man who was not happy with life and who was constantly and obsessively railing against Jews, homosexuals and other groups in highly-abusive terms. His ex-wife described him as violent, controlling and abusive. The FBI has interviewed him twice but not followed up. The US President says that there is no evidence that he has been guided to this action from outside. He is a US citizen. No- one can argue that this wasn't an act of terrorism. But this is not the time to indulge in kneejerk attacks on Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:09 PM

paraphrased from John Oliver

A Gay night club celebrating Latin nite in the city of ultimate theme parks epitomizes the free spirit of love and freedom itself in America.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:55 PM

There is a man who got a lot of attention for the school-shooting response in Chardon, Ohio, the coach Frank Hall; he ended up on the cover of Sports Illustrated magazine. As I recall, he comes from a family where the men conventionally talk about the right to bear arms to defend yourself against tyranny, and they mean the governmental, federal sort. They have a hard time preaching that gospel when Frank is around, because he will say, "What are we doing with guns like THESE?" Frank Hall didn't have a gun when the shooter came to the school, and he didn't kill anybody; but he stopped worse things from happening, and when he had chased the shooter out of the building, he went back for the paralyzed and the dying, and stayed with them until the ambulance and the paramedics arrived.

Frank Hall is a foster father as well as a biological father; and at his job, coaching students, he regards the team as a family, with one father and many brothers. He talks about service, and he walks his talk.

And he doesn't even let his players "shoot their mouths off" without consequences: this is described on "Sixty Minutes" in the interview they did with him when he left Chardon for a school in Ashtabula County and put himself at the service of its student athletes. Now he is teaching them how to serve.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hero-coach-frank-hall-on-ohio-school-shooting-at-chardon-high       -- a transcript of the episode.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:31 PM

he did call 911 before the shooting began and pledged support to ISIS

Doesn't mean ISIS had anything to do with it - this guy made the choice and the statement all by himself. He could just as easily pledged support to Cthulhu.

From above:

I just hope it doesn't provoke a backlash against law-abiding Muslims.

Too late.....

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM

So you've proved he was an ISIS terrorist and not some bloke with guns who went out of his mind. Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 12:13 PM

Stu, I agree wholeheartedly, but we have our faif share of defective minds. What is a terrorist? One who causes terror. I realize we've co-oped the term, but still. And Steve, he did call 911 before the shooting began and pledged support to ISIS. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:20 AM

Why weapons like this, that are solely designed to kill as many people as possible as easily as possible are for sale to anyone is beyond me. Baffling.

I don;t know how a society combats this, but looking at the US from the inside out it seems to be a sizeable part of the population is reverting to religious fundamentalism, the lauding of demagogues, permanent and pervasive fear and an acceptance of the sort of brutality the Camorra would be proud of.

Such a fantastic country with resourceful, intelligent people needs to get a grip and admit that on guns, it is very, very wrong.

5,967 deaths by shooting so far this year. For crying out loud, this is slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

A combination of 'moral' beliefs from his interpretation of his religion,his documented mental instability... and easy access to guns.

No one should be surprised.

As one expert said: IF he could not have acquired a rapid fire assault weapon, he might have killed 'only' 3-4 with his handgun... we have to start somewhere limiting the firepower.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:05 AM

Nice try for rationality, Steve, but the usual Islamophobes won't have any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

We need to be very careful to avoid using that baggage-infested word "terrorist" in this context until we know more. The fellow was a Muslim and he went berserk and shot fifty people dead. He had been investigated by the FBI and was not regarded as imminently dangerous. It has yet to become clear, in spite of ISIS claims, whether the attack was motivated by Islamic extremism (not a phrase I enjoy using, actually). ISIS encourages lone wolf attacks and would, naturally, want to claim this as their work. Even if he was not so motivated, yes, terrorism might be a word to use, but let's not forget the baggage that comes with it.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:46 AM

Donuel, sadly, you're safe in the grave.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:42 AM

In America the one place you are entirely safe from gun violence is...?

Go ahead, you tell me where.



It may ironically exist in a nuclear underground silo, but I doubt it.


There is much controversy in what determines a legal shooting especially in light of the NRA legislation of Stand Your Ground law.

There is seldom a peep about the legal purchase of the murder weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:33 AM

It's interesting to learn that the man who killed 50 people in Florida

Well, Jim, A man under FBI investigation for terrorist activities, with a history of mental instability, was allowed to buy numerous guns legally, thank you very much Republican party and NRA.

See: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/senate-gop-votes-terrorist-gun-bill-article-1.2454448

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:18 AM

God isn't going to help anyone. People need to fix this themselves, but I fear there isn't enough blood and gore in the world to shock some people to see sense, especially when they are scared witless.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

I was confident this topic would be broached here, and I was unsure how to respond. I own two firearms, two 120yr old single shot 12 gauges and a 75yr old .22 bolt action. The shotguns are more a danger to the shooter than the shootee, but I'd hate to have someone confiscate them. I fear that a certain percentage of our population is sick and depraved, and no amount of laws or education will change that. Do I think assault rifles should be obtainable by average citizens? Of course not, but I'm done debating with people who say they are "sorting weapons" This tragedy in Orlando sickens me. I don't believe it has much to do with sexual prejudice or Islam or politics. These are just excuses. I despair, and I know that is no help to anyone. May God be with us all. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM

People who know better enable the NRA


"Something makes me think the National Rifle Association intentionally practices techniques of building convincing logical fallacies. Intentional logical fallacy has a long and sordid history. The people who intend to mislead, ain't dummies. They do that stuff on purpose."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:57 AM

Who are NRA enablers?

People like me who make strongly worded posts or display bumper stickers and anti NRA posters and sit on my hands when it comes to actually doing something.

People like Congressmen whose constituents are 90% in favor of gun registration but take the 25 grand to vote exactly as the NRA dictates.

People like folks here who give the NRA money to be members.

People who are pro life and lower their flag half mast for mass shootings like Sandy Hook for 5 days.

People who smugly say there will always be guns like there will always be wars.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:42 AM

The NRA uses atrocities like the Orlando massacre to promote their agenda that there would have been fewer casualties if more of the victims had been armed. They believe Americans need more, not less, guns.

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:22 AM

The NRA will pray today for the families and victims but staunchly defend their right to sell guns to anyone including foreign and domestic terrorists.

The motivation for profit by merchants of death is understandable.
The gun user on average does not go hungry without military weapons.
The average gun owner does not use guns to defend against enemies t mass shootings. They defend their right to have fun with guns.

In this time of moral crises, people will sit on the sideline and defend gun ownership because they know a respondsible owner.

They do not look in the mirror and see themselves as part of the problem or solution. There are people here who are intelligent and compassionate who are deeply part of this moral crises but feign neutrality or openly support gun use.


There is no hell hotter than those who sit silently on the sidelines with closed eyes in the midst of moral crises.
MLK

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM

It's interesting to learn that the man who killed 50 people in Florida did so with a handgun and a semi-automatic assault rifle he purchased legally a few days ago and was known by the F.B.I. - surely that has to say something to those who think there isn't "something seriously rotten in the State of....." as far as being able to obtain weapons?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: thoughts on change
From: Andrez
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM

Sadly, I'm inclined to agree Joe. So not not take away for one minute from the current tragedy in Orlando, but it needs to be asked how many people in the US are going to have to die as a result of ready access to guns before people and communities say enough is enough!

If the Civil Rights movements in the 1960's protesting against racial discrimination and segregation was able to promote change who is to say a national movement on that scale couldn't overcome resistance by the NRA and allies given time?

I don't for one minute suggest this would be any easy process but if the alternative is to do nothing then the US needs to take a long hard look at the human toll and suffering that has been and is a result of its foreign policy and military interventions around the world. In the immortal words of Marvin Gaye:

Mother, mother
There's too many of you crying
Brother, brother, brother
There's far too many of you dying
You know we've got to find a way
To bring some lovin' here today, eheh

Father, father
We don't need to escalate
You see, war is not the answer
For only love can conquer hate
You know we've got to find a way
To bring some lovin' here today, oh oh oh

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Re the latter, Australia is little or no better as we seem to be happy to follow US foreign policy but at least we have better (but not perfect) control over access to guns in community settings.