Same verses in same song

Subject: Same verses in same song
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:46 AM

I just posted on the thread about repeating first verses, and it occurred to me that some songs just keep repeating the same verse , though maybe not in folk, except some that have minor changes throughout ...takes a worried man ....where have all the flowers...!    Do you think this is laziness, lack of creativity, or just got nothing to say !?

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:52 AM

No, it's literary technique to reinforce a point.

Goodness, you must be really dim...

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:23 AM

I think some songs are meant to be sung communally - the repetition (perhaps with variations) being there to extend the communal feeling. So, at the end of a singaround, you might get something like "Mama Don't Allow", where various instruments get the chance to play together and the sung chorus allows everyone to join in without much need to remember different words.

(Interestingly enough, it's fun to sing, at some point in that song:

"Mama don't allow no silence in here - Mama don't allow no silence in here.
Who cares what Mama don't allow, let's have that silence any old how,
Mama don't allow no silence in here"

and then see what happens... all in the spirit of John Cage, of course).

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:04 AM

Repetition of lines or even verses is a feature of ballads, it's known as incremental repetition.
One of its uses is to indicate that the action has moved on in either time or distance.
I think the phrase "they rode on and further on" occurs in the version of Earl Brand that appeals to me.
Tam Linn uses the same technique, using the same phrase to open the ballad and later, when she goes out to look for the father of her unborn child - I seem to remember it's repeated yet again when she goes to rescue her lover from his spell.
The Baron of Lys is made up of such repetitions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Marje
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM

As Will says, one function of the repetition in the examples you give is that they can serve as a refrain, which other people can join in and feel that they are carrying or engaging with the song. (E.g. "The answer, my friend...." or " Long time passing.... ").

In ballads, there's often a set of several answers to riddles, attempts at some feat, etc, and the repeated words emphasise that the struggle and determination required to achieve the right outcome.

Such lines can also serve to give the singer time to remember what comes next, but perhaps that's just my personal take on it.

Marje

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:55 PM

Among the many things it does, repetition works very well for getting people to sing, so it appears in many forms. Song choruses are probably the best known. Other songs repeat the bridge and the last verse as a form of conclusion, and yet others repeat the first verse. "Zipper" songs follow an outline that changes only a few words in every verse - such songs make it easy for people to make up their own verses.
And some verses are used in a variety of songs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM

Last point of Joe's, tho -- the 'floating verse' is surely a different phenomenon. Can be very forceful in contexts where used: as I've remarked before, the familiar sequence of "riverside - breast & swam - other side - heels & ran" is one of the most effective epitomes of an urgent journey in great haste.

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Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 03:33 PM

Joe is making a general point that repetition, familiarity, formulae etc., can all serve a variety of functions.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:04 PM

To add to the functions of repetition already discussed here… In songs that are composed orally, repetition provides a kind of structure for the singer to be able to recreate it.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: CupOfTea
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:53 PM

I was recently thinking about the phenomenon of repetition in songs, particularly ballads, and comparing it to the same device in traditional storytelling. Emphasis, surely: " what I tell you three times is true" but also to built tension. It moves the action in a story on, but at a measured pace. Traditional structures in songs is such a great framework. In the OP, Pete wondered at "laziness" as a possible reason. In any creative endeavor, it is much more difficult if you are working without structure or parameters. It's not a shortcut, it's a focus.

Chorus and zipper songs have repetition functioning in a much different way - with the intent to have participation be open to all. The ballads that have incremental repetition manage to work both ways. It's all good, sez I, as long as I can skip the John Cage level of endless repetition.

Laying the bent to the bonny broom,

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 01:05 AM

I have a teacher friend who says that I repeat things in stories I tell her classes, to make them boring and annoying to the teacher...

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

Thank you for the ...constructive...comments. It does seem that I was unclear though in the OP . I was referring to songs that consist of only one verse ,that just repeats maybe three times. Buy some good observations expressed none the less.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Western Trails
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM

I think repetition is useful since it makes the songs easier to remember when they are being passed down orally.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:37 PM

Pete, can you give us an example or two?

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 04:40 PM

Anyone wanting to go deeper into this subject should read Roger de V Renwick's chapter on The Anglo/American Catalogue Song in 'Recentering Anglo/American Folksong' where he identifies 5 main types, enumeration, iteration, incrementation, cumulation and dialogue.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:15 PM

One example is fire by R E M.   There was another by buddy holly I think. Sorry to be a bit vague.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: mkebenn
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM

Rag Mop, Innagodidavida, Henry the eighth,Don't Worry. And "Guest" ED, is an insult really called for? Mike

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:18 PM

We usually ignore trolls, Mike.
Pete, your queries were perfectly valid. There are many songs of this type in practically all cultures. We usually refer to the technique as incremental repetition. It certainly isn't due to laziness or lack of creativity and these songs often make a very good point effectively and are amongst our most popular. Many have nowadays been pushed into the realms of children's songs but that does not mean they are any less useful or valid or for that matter entertaining.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 08:20 PM

Same message in every verse....

Give Me The Roses While I Live


Wonderful things of folks are said
When they have passed away
Roses adorn the narrow bed
Over the sleeping clay

Give me the roses while I live
Trying to cheer me on
Useless are flowers that you give
After the soul has gone

Let us not wait to do good deeds
Till they have passed away
Now is the time to sow good seeds
While here on earth we stay

Kind words are useless when folks lie
Cold in a narrow bed
Don't wait till death to speak kind words
Now should the words be said

Give me the roses while I live
Don't wait until I die
To spread the roses over my grave
To see as you pass it by

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 04:22 AM

"songs often make a very good point effectively"
.,,.,
Indeed. And a final slight departure from the incremental repetition that has become anticipated can have a profound and telling dramatic effect -- like that "Yes I have brought you gold", instead of the "No I have not brought you gold" from all the other relations, when "my true-love" at last appears at the end of Child #95 to Free the Maid from the Gallows. I have literally known non-folkie audiences sigh with relief at that point - tho admittedly not that often! (I would also remark that the title is a pity; a spoiler for the punchline, innit!)

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Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:46 PM

Hi Mike,
Are they sighing with relief because it's the final verse or because she's reprieved?

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:10 PM

all repetition is anti spritual ..oscar wilde, discuss

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:30 AM

A good sentiment in that song , bill. Lion, would what you quoted be where gallows pole came from, as sang by led zeppelin ?       GSS, being as their is a lot of repetition in spirituals, I would say he was Wildely off the mark! But you have thereby reminded me of that genre and it's use of repition , though with variations on the theme.

Subject: RE: Same verses in same song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:21 PM

Yes, Gallows Pole is an American version of Child #95. It's one of the most widespread of ballads, & despite the generic Child title, it's as often a man as a girl being hanged.

I didn't ask, Steve!


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