Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)

Subject: Obit: Jo Cox
From: mkebenn
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:58 AM

I waited for someone from across the pond to post this, and I see mention in the EU debate thread, but I feel she deserves her own space. As a yank, I'd never heard of her before her death, shame that that is. From what I have learned, she was a lady after my own heart. I believe, with not much background, that she died more for her compassion for refugees than her views on the EU. I could be totally wrong here. whatever the reason, a terrible waste and travesty. My heart goes out to her husband, children and extended family. This , of course, has echos for me, in the hauntingly similar attack on Gabby Giffords, an Arizona representative, in 2011. May she rest in peace, and may her memory keep her causes alive. Mike

Subject: RE: Obit: Jo Cox
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM

She did wonderful work for desperate people in the worst places, before she became an MP.
There is no doubt that she was genuinely loved and respected by the people she represented.

We do not know what "she died for."
Probably just a nut with a gun who would have killed someone someday anyway. No point in speculating just yet.

Thanks for the thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: Jo Cox
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:49 AM

Just a few miles from where I live, what a tragic waste of a beautiful life, a woman who never did anything but help other people.

I can't find the words to express my feelings.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Obit: Jo Cox
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 12:24 PM

Heartbreaking. She was the kind of MP we'd all like to have.

It seems pretty clear that whatever kind of stuff in the background of the killer and motives in his head, what triggered the attack will have been the heat and building nastiness of the campaign round the referendum campaign.

The way her husband has responded to the loss on behalf of himseelf and their two young daughters is impressive.

Subject: RE: Obit: Jo Cox
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 01:18 PM

My sister is Jo's mother's friend, having worked with her in the school where Jo's mother was the school secretary. She saw Jo grow up from childhood, through her teens until she went off to university. Everything you've read about her is true. She was one of the most generous, dynamic and giving of people. The last couple of days have been truly horrible. Leave a note of condolence on the Labour Party's website if you're moved to do so.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM

My condolences to you folks in the UK. Tragic indeed.

what triggered the attack will have been the heat and building nastiness of the campaign round the referendum campaign.

Very much like the garbage coming out of Trump's campaign this side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: mkebenn
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:20 PM

Thanks to what ever clone propered up the thread title. Mike

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:58 PM

"We do not know what "she died for.""
She died for speaking her mind and she was killed by an extremist right wing terrorist who objected to her doing so.
He had connections with right wing groups in America and he shouted "death to traitors freedom for Britain" as he was charged,
If this had been a killing by a Muslim extremist there would be no doubt whatever why she died.
She deserves at least to be recognised for what she died for and what her killer represented.
I thought that needed saying and have no intentions of entering into a debate over it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:11 PM

We do not know what "she died for."
Probably just a nut with a gun who would have killed someone someday anyway.

Rubbish. The killer made it absolutely clear at his arraignment that he stood for exactly what you stand for.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:56 PM

That was a remarkably clumsy intervention, Keith.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:58 PM

I must admit that I was slow to comment as at first it was all hearsay on social media but it is now clear it was politically motivated. The witness on the news bulletins was adamant that the attacker shouted "Britain First" twice when she was attacked. Then when asked what his name was in court he again said twice "death to traitors, freedom for Britain". And no matter how BF are now belatedly trying to distance themselves from the murder lets not overlook their deputy leaders own words just a a few weeks ago

"They think they can get away with ruining our country, turning us into a Third World country, giving away our homes, jobs and heritage, but they will face the wrath of the Britain First movement, make no mistake about it! We will not rest until every traitor is punished for their crimes against our country.And by punished, I mean good old fashioned British justice at the end of a rope!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/10/britain-firsts-london-mayor-electoral-campaign_n_9425424.html

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:10 PM

An exceptionally valuable human being brutally murdered by a worthless piece of shit...

..Yet as hard as it is for the hate fueled arseholes like Britain First to understand,
Jo Cox represented the best of humanity,
who would most likely have even shown some some concern and compassion for the kind of person who killed her...???

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:10 PM

Her mum and dad, and her brave sister who gave the eulogy and in whose face, despite the sadness, you could see Jo's irrepressible smile, were on the news tonight. Fantastic family, lovely people, salt of the earth. Decency personified. I just can't get my head round any of this.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 12:35 AM

An utter tragedy.

And the greater tragedy is that we will never know what greatness this amazing, dynamic, caring, funny and, dare I say it, beautiful, young woman would have gone on to.

A terrible loss for her husband and children, her wider family and friends, but also a dreadful loss for her constituents, and the nation as a whole.

RIP, Jo.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 03:44 AM

Well said Backwoodsman!

I was discussing this with friends yesterday, and we all said the same.
She was one of the few politicians one feels one could have trusted, whose motives were pure and who had the good of her constituents at heart. She had enormous empathy and humanity for all.

One of my friends even said she might have become Prime Minister in due course. But now she's gone and we shall never know. Tragic.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:52 AM

horrifying--unspeakable tragedy. Someone whose voice and message we needed so much-- now assassinated. R.I.P.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:14 AM

A light equal to Bobby Kennedy snuffed out for the same reason, illogical ideology. Will hatred always hold sway? Mike

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 02:50 PM

Sorry if my contribution seemed clumsy and angered some.
Not my intention to be in anyway controversial.

I said, "We do not know what "she died for."
" No point in speculating just yet."

Others may know more about the killer than I do, but he appears deranged to me.

Deranged or not, he has deprived us of a worthy politician, and her family and friends of much more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:14 PM

I'm OK with that, Keith.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:34 PM

If a deranged killer holds deranged political views, how far do we put that killing down to personal derangement or political motivation?

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:43 PM

I would say that any 'political motivation' that results in the horrendous murder of a pleasant and honourable young woman is deranged anyway, and so is the perpetrator.

But this thread is in my view an Obit, and as the case is still under legal process, it might be rather out of place here to speculate.

From Jo's family and friends' angle, I'm sure they're feeling intense loss and grief, which is difficult enough to bear, and the motives of the man would be a secondary issue.

Later perhaps, answers will be found to many questions, and conclusions drawn, for example that MPs need more effective protection when going about their public duties.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:59 PM

As hollow as it would be, it might be easier for me to get my head around if there was a reason, not totally insane as with say John Lennon's murder. Then I could blame something, not a sick individual whom I would naturally and normally pity. Mike

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:49 AM

From this morning's (English) Times.
Jim Carroll

FAR-RIGHT GROUPS 'ARE INCITING HATE ON SOCIAL MEDIA'
Gabriella Swelling, Fiona Hamilton, Georgie Keate
Police are being urged to investigate extreme right-wing groups and their incitement activities after a series of hateful messages were published on social media in the wake of Jo Cox's murder.
Nationalist groups have been accused of glorifying Thomas Mair, Mrs Cox's accused killer, crowing about the attack and making excuses for it.
It comes amid concern about the rise of the far right in pockets of the UK, notably in Yorkshire, with violence at anti-immigration marches and in¬creasing anti-Muslim hate crimes.
In the days since Mrs Cox's death scores of members of far-right organisations have taken to social me¬dia to make threats to other MPs and to crow about the fate of the 41-year-old mother, who was a prominent cam¬paigner for remaining in the EU.
The northeast unit of National Action, which has campaigned for Britain to leave the EU, tweeted: "VoteLeave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain. Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans."
The police northeast counterterrorism unit confirmed they were probing a number of "offensive messages on social media and extreme social media content". A spokesman said: "We are conducting checks on this material to establish whether or not any criminal offences have been committed."
There have been numerous other disturbing messages from far-right supporters in other areas of the coun¬try, resulting in calls for police to moni¬tor and investigate online hatred.
A member of the English Defence League, another far-right group, posted on Facebook: "Many of us have been saying for years that sooner or later "SOMEONE" was going to get killed. No one thought it was going to be one of "them" (left-wing) who was going to be the first victim of the coming civil unrest heading towards Europe... BUT he had reached his breaking point (like many of us) and snapped."
One Twitter user described Mrs Cox as a "traitor" while another said she was a "threat to the UK" and described Mr Mair as an "Aryan warrior". Another group, linked to a news story of Mrs Cox's calling itself the Notts Casual Infidels, murder and posted on Facebook: "We knew it was only a matter of time before we take it to the next level. We have been mugged off for too long."
A man associated with Pegida UK, an anti-Islam group, posted on Facebook: "From today the game changed as a good friend said have a look at today's date 16/06/2016. Next time the government must listen to its people."
Matthew Collins, head of research at Hope not Hate, a charity that seeks to defeat the politics of extremism within British communities, said he was con¬cerned that "there are a number of tiny, right-wing organisations that are taking great glory and satisfaction from Jo's death".
He added: "I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division."
Mr Collins said that although there were many people who did not agree with or vote for Mrs Cox, "they had the decency to recognise the contribution she made to wider society".
Referring to hateful messages posted on social media, he said: "These people are so on the margins of society that they no longer have any sense of moral decency or moral codes. I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division and are well aware of what such words have led to. These people are engaged in a whole network of tearing down the moral fabric of society."
Stephen Kinnock, the MP who shared an office with Mrs Cox, was subjected to "particularly venomous" online abuse last week after an article about his family's support for the Re¬main campaign. One email threatened violence and has been reported to the police, he said.
Mr Kinnock said the far right were a "shady bunch" who had many of their "views legitimised by the referendum and the choice of the Leave campaign to go hard on immigration".
"I get the sense that a lot of rhetoric around the Leave campaign would have been classified as far right only five years ago but now' it's more mainstream. For example, I don't think any political party would have put up that poster of Nigel Farage's then.
"There seems to have been a drum beat over the years for venomous rhe¬toric. A lot of this referendum would have been classified as pretty extreme.
"Many MPs have a siege mentality because of the abuse, so I do think something needs to be done about it, but the question is what. You've got to get a balance between free speech and protecting people's security. The last thing we'd want to do is never hold surgeries, then the bad guys have won."

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 06:57 PM

All kinds of jobs involve being vulnerable to attack by individuals, who for whatever reason, see the victims as the enemy. Teachers, doctore and nurses, social workers, police - the list goes on for ever. MPs are not alone in this. There are sensible ways of reducing risk - eg alarm buttons in interview rooms - but it can't be eliminated.

It would be good to bellieve that this tragedy could lead to a longterm change our political culture. That seems too much to hope for, but for a spell at least it might give a pause to some of the nastiness, so that it doesn't get so easily accepted.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: mkebenn
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

Too much to hope for indeed, McGrath. Our congress just shit caned four of the most menial of gun control measures that almost 90% of ALL Americans are in favor of because of one very powerful yet small lobby, after the senseless slaughter in Orlando. Mike

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:04 AM

True enough, and pretty disgraceful. Fortunately, when it comes to dealing with guns, our political culture works differently. If there is any loophole in our gun laws that made it easier for the killer having that gun, they will certainly be blocked.

But whether there will be less toleration for hate speech and general nastiness in political discourse is a lot less certain.

Subject: Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:44 PM

In very recent news, the Commission on Loneliness, part of Jo Cox's legacy,
has received an appointment of Tracey Crouch as minister,
to carry on Cox's work.

quotes the late Jo Cox and her widower Brendan

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:11 AM

Nice piece of joined-up thinking HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM

so young!

1974, i was in my mid twenties, when she was born.

you can't really join up the thinking about an incident like that. its bereft of all decency....its a victory for the arseholes, whatever their political thinking.

farage has many faults but he gave no one a mandate or approval for a monstrous act like that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 01:37 PM

"but he gave no one a mandate or approval for a monstrous act like that."
Racism like his opens the door to it - the rest comes easy to some people
jIm Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:44 AM

This was an obit thread about Jo Cox and was brought back to the fore because of her legacy. Don't spoil it trying to score political points.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM

Jo Cox's death was a political assassination by the extremist right Dave
Her killer had links with some of those due to go to trial for provoking racial hatred
The link I put up was to a statement by her widower who obviously understands the cause of her death is very much a part of what is happening today
It would be a waste of her life to ignore the facts surrounding her death and its wider implications
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM

It was Jim and that discussion needs to take place. But not on an obit thread.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:02 AM

"But not on an obit thread."
Where better Dave
I've been to too many anodynely conducted, lip-service funerals to realise that they are a waste of time unless they celebrate the life of the deceased in order to carry on their work
I'll tell you about the lasting effect my father's funeral had on my life sometime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM

I'm not sure, Jim. I don't feel that in this case. I wouldn't mind crossing swords over whether, someone who initiates a thought is responsible for all the hell that is attributed to it.

Was Marx responsible for the Gulags. Nietzsche responsible for Auswitz. Christ responsible for the Spanish Inquisition....Is the best thing to think and say nothing just in case some arsehole with limited intelligence is listening?

But I don't think this thread of overwhelming sadness is the place.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:48 PM

I find I'm with you on this, Jim.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:29 PM

well maybe i'm wrong then.
all i know is i don't want to argue here.
from what i've seen - its not easy to influence and change opinion.


if you think you're in with a chance - go ahead. if you just want to shout the odds...

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:12 PM

I'd suggest the time is now right to open up a new thread dedicated to Jo Cox's legacy;
and the impact of her cruel murder on how left and right can interact more positively
to find common ground amidst all the usual combative insults...

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:45 PM

well i trust her legacy is a positive one.

someone of great decency, who dedicated herself to paying an active role in the democratic process.

we should have great reverence and respect for the memory of such a person.


what is being proposed is a graveside slanging match about sodding brexit. this tererible murder was probably a byproduct of just such 'debate' - though i personally refuse to dignify the exchanges of abuse that were around at the time with the term 'debate'.

i find the prospect distasteful in the extreme. if you have a talent for abuse and long to exercise it, take it somewhere else than the obituary of this lady.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 07:14 AM

"Was Marx responsible for the Gulags. "
No the Tsarist regimes were - a long time before Marx
The Bolsheiks took over what had been long established - some of them had done time in the Gulags
Re Jo Cox
She was a victim of the right wing extremism she gave her life fighting - she deserves to be remembered for that fact - not by crocodile tars and lip-service
Even Keith went through the motions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:37 AM

This is not the place to start a political argument Jim.
Why use my name?
I did not correct your claim that the killer had "links" to any organisation.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

I accept the point that politics may have relevance in an obituary and you could well be right that it has its place here. I am with Al on his point though. There is no place for bickering and personal point scoring at the gragveside. For that reason I shall leave it there.

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:43 PM

I think we can all feel sad that our society is producing creatures who perpetrate this sort of thing...cut off a life, lived so worthily; a young life full of promise and achievement, without necessarily agreeing about everything.

if that's crocodile tears - a simple request.
Leave this thread me and my fellow reptiles.
Go and name call somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM

"This is not the place to start a political argument Jim."
Because you are a prime example of what I am talking about
No argument - there is no need for one so 'nuff said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM

There is a great deal of lip service being payed to the death of Jo Cox, unfortunately some of it being paid by people who, I know, really should know better ans do, if they think about it.
This 'obituary' was made political in the secong posting to this thread when somebody wrote "We do not know what "she died for." Probably just a nut with a gun who would have killed someone someday anyway."
It was obvious then why Cox died and has become more obvious as time has passed
To attempt to separate her death from the reason she died is the greatest disrespect you could possibly pay to a good, dedicated person
People die every day and are missed by those who knew them - this is not the case here
Cox died because she fought for decency and a better world, and that needs to be acknowledged
She died a year and a half ago; until Keberoxu reopened the thread, the last comment on her death on this thread was - a year and a half ago
So much for opening another thread - she had been forgotten, including by those who are now urging that we shouldn't discuss why she died.
As THIS ARTICLE points out, there is more to the death of Jo Cox than the passing of a fine young woman
She is one in a long list of people that stretches back centuries, who have attempted to make the world a better place: Jo Cox, Blair Peach, Victor Jara, Rachel Corrie, George Jackson... how far do you want to go back? - Joe Hill, Sacco and Vanzetti - all people to be remembered with love and respect, alongside those who didn't die but just suffered for a better world, like Mandela and Mordechai Vanunu, still subject to persecution and constant threats after over thirty years - for telling the world what it needed to know.
There is a WONDERFUL SONG that commemorates people like Jo Cox - if it included everybody who should be remembered in this way it would have a thousand verses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:01 AM

Theres another tradition - much more powerful that stalks the land.

Much more relevant to most people . More feared than the evils of Brexiteers and assorted right wing nutters. And Jo Cox more obviously to most people belongs in that group.

The victims of nutters in a sick, semieducated society.

The kids in a Warrington MacDonalds, the people of Hungerford, the children at a Manchester concert hall, the children of Dunblane... most of them anonymous.

All of them victims of sick bastards who felt they had the right to take the future of other people and blight their families with grief.

Okay you want to hi-jack this lady's name to sling shit at the people who voted who voted against membership of the EU. Go ahead. But 'debate' at that temperature is what dumb fuck who killed her was brooding about. You might be comfortable with it, but the thought of it turns my stomach.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:31 AM

"Okay you want to hi-jack this lady's name to sling shit "
That's more than a little beneath you Al
The people you mentioned were victims of the people who slaughtered Jo Cox
Nobody here has mentioned Brexit other than you, who have brought it up twice
We get your message - Cox doesn't deserve recognition for why she died and who killed her   
Your view - your choice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:16 AM

I'm sorry if I offended you.

but why did she die. Was it because the campaign she was waging was against people who are inherently evil?

I don't think so. The temperature of the public debate was raised to hysterical levels, by demagogues who were indulging inflated rhetoric, because the facts were in short supply.....and some people simply didn't have the education and political sophistication to divine the situation.

do i want to jump into the same stinking bullshit fest.

no i bloody don't and i don't think to do so would be much of a way to remember Jo Cox.

Frankly her death was a triumphant vindication of nothing. just a bloody shameful day for English society.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:42 AM

"but why did she die. Was it because the campaign she was waging was against people who are inherently evil?"
In my opinion it was because of the rcism that was incited by those who pushed through Brexit - the reports pointed out that the killer actually shouted the Brexit slogan about Britain standing alone, but he also made a statement about Syrian refugees
Cox's widower says he didn't believe it had anything to do with Brexit - I didn't claim it did in deference to him, but we're all entitled to our opinions
You really can't separate the rise of racism in Britain from the way the Brexit campaign was conducted - it doesn't mean all those who voted to leave were stupid or evil - that's reserved for scumbags like Farage and his type
The killer had links with the 'Britain Alone' group who are due to go on trial for racial incitement in Belfast in the near future
"English society."
English politics maybe, most people, even those who hold racist views, are fairly tolerant?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

i admit i don't know enough about britain alone, or the killer to argue.
or syrian refugees.

i suppose if you're convinced, you must do what you think is right.

get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu.

if you think that is what will honour Jo Cox's memory.

I can see its a sincerely held view. go ahead.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:20 PM

"get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu"
I just pointed out my position on this Al - don't YOU stary misinterpreting my position - we already have enough of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM

"In my opinion it was because of the racism that was incited by those who pushed through Brexit"

Jim if that's the opening statement and its not intended as insulting....well its not exactly a compliment to call someone a racist.

still. look, if that's what you honestly think. fire away! pay no attention at all to me.

I'm old and I'm not in the swim of things. I'm probably wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:41 AM

I'm with PFR on this one, and will quote him:
I'd suggest the time is now right to open up a new thread dedicated to Jo Cox's legacy; and the impact of her cruel murder on how left and right can interact more positively to find common ground amidst all the usual combative insults...

Perhaps a mud-elf would consider closing this thread, as it has served for an obituary, but is no longer serving that purpose.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:04 AM

"Perhaps a mud-elf would consider closing this thread, as it has served for an obituary, but is no longer serving that purpose."
Isn't it somewhat arrogant of you to take it on yourself to decide when a thread is finished, especially when your only posting on the murder of a young woman politician by a right-wing thug is that the subject is over as far as ytou are concerned
Remind me again which side of the political spectrum you represent Nigel
Big Brother is watching us indeed!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:25 AM

Jim,
Unlike your invective laden posts, I merely suggested that a mud-elf might like to consider closing the thread.
There is already a new thread discussing the legacy of Jo Cox, and I don't feel that an obituary thread is the place for some of the more strident comments now being placed here.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM

For what my feeble contribution may be worth, I wholeheartedly agree with both Nigel and Big Al in their modest and measured responses to some of the (usual) vitriol on this thread. They have apologised if anyone has been offended, made their views known without nastiness and deserve merit for their restraint.

I also agree that this started as an Obit thread, and it has now become an undignified mud-slinging match.

Lastly, I voted for Brexit and still want it to go ahead. I vote Conservative. I am not racist.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:48 AM

"Unlike your invective laden posts, I merely suggested that a mud-elf might like to consider closing the thread."
On a subject you didn't care enough to contribute to - not even to acknowledge the death of the victim of a political assassination
If you believe that discussing the reasons for killing of a British politician has no place in her obituary, we inhabit different worlds - but we already knew that
It has not become a mud-singing thread Sen - it was dealing with the life and death of a young woman - a tribute to her.
What has caused this furore was a link to an interview with her widower
Should we allow the passing of such a human being as Jo Cox go without an attamept to discuss why she died?
As I said to Nigel - not in my world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

As I've already made clear, I don't believe an obituary thread is the place for mud-slinging and invective.
I've made my opinion clear, as an obituary I believe this discussion has run its course.

To avoid further comment I will withdraw from this thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM

"As I've already made clear, I don't believe an obituary thread is the place for mud-slinging and invective."
There has ben no mud-slinging here - unless you consider Mr Cox's statement and the American article to be that
To claim that a discussion you took no part other than to attempt to close it has "run its course".... lost for words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM

i haven't slung mud. but i haven't been reverent. if you feel Jim, its a fitting sort of thing - you go ahead. and pay no attention to what I've said. just go ahead and say what you think needs to be said, and I apologise to you, and everyone else, for being a contrary old git.

it was my birthday this week. (intimations of mortality!)

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM

" if you feel Jim, its a fitting sort of thing - "
What sort of thing exactly Al?
I haven't slung mud and you are the one who brought Brexit into this
The American article I produced may have been headed Brexit but in fact it was pointing out how racism had become part of British politics which played an essential part in the killing of Jo Cox
Her widower's article made the same comparisons, pointing out the similarities between Britain and what is happening in Trump's America - you may have noticed that American politics have been brought to a standstill because of the racist politics of the world's most powerful head of state
If we can't discuss issues such as this on a thread which was set up to pay tribute to a young politicians who was assassinated by a racist we may as well restrict these threads to cable-stitch and macrame
You are accusing me of something here - have the decency to say what exactly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM

i don't know how to be any more conciliatory.

you have drawn links between Brexit, racism and the murder of Jo Cox.

I have said if this seems appropriate - dip your bread in, go for it. speak your mind and heed not for an instant the reservations that i expressed on this thread.

i am sure you are being true to yourself and your deepest beliefs and feelings, and no one should disrespect this.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM

"racism and the murder of Jo Cox."
Do you have a problem with that Al?
As for Brexit - I have studiously avoided making an issue of it - I stated my position in passing, but at no time have I made an issue of it
Read what I said, not you appear to wish me to have said
"Cox's widower says he didn't believe it had anything to do with Brexit - I didn't claim it did in deference to him, but we're all entitled to our opinions"
If we can't discuss these things on a thread about a politician who has been murdered by a racist who shouted out Pro-Brexit slogans, where the **** will you give us permission to do so Al
Maybe you think Jo Cox shouldn't hasve involved herself in an Anti Brexit campaign the way she did?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:46 PM

I have made it quite clear that I think that the expression of your passionately held beliefs should be respected.

so go ahead - say your piece with all the vehemence and eloquence that I know you have.

Its not mandatory for me to share your beliefs. Or to state my disagreement and debate the point you raise.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 02:57 PM

"I have made it quite clear that I think that the expression of your passionately held beliefs should be respected."
We're not here top "respect" each other's views - the term itself exudes disapproval
We're here to discuss each others views - that's the point of these forums
You have made your disapproval of my views obvious, without having the courage to tell me why - fine by me Al, but don't try to stop me putting them forward nad when you haven't, you have distorted them - "get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu"
I have "insulted" nobody and I do not blame those who voted for Brexit - my gripe is with the Nigel Farages of this world who pushed through by turning people against one another on the basis of their color, their religion and where they come from
America is now in the midst of the results of such divisive racism, and Britain is heading the same way
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-racism-hate-crime-figures-rise-white-british-being-attacked-a7360836.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:40 PM

i just don't think its the place.
but you must act by your own lights.

Ignore me. I am unimportant, and not very bright. And you are in all probability right about everything. Including the total suitability of your comments.
Just say what you think needs to be said.

here is your link


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-racism-hate-crime-figures-rise-white-british-being-attacked-a7360836.html Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:25 AM

"Ignore me. I am unimportant, and not very bright."
Not true, on either count Al.
You are one of the few people I have argued with regularly, whose opinions I value
I was brought up to hate and fear racism - shortly after I was born Jews were beginning to be sent to their deaths for being Jews
The racism that is most worrying in Britain today is not the organised kind - the National Front self destructed, the BNP disappeared up its own Hatefest, Ukip is now tearing itself apart with somewhat entertaining internal struggles, the Britain First scumbag is due to be put on trial in Belfast....
The real problems in the world today are the politicians who are happy to use race to cover up their own inadequacies by blaming immigrants for the situation their greed and incompetence has created
Powell started it and now his ghost is haunting British politics
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM

That is bollocks Jim, but this is not the place for an argument.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

"this is not the place for an argument."
Thankfully, not the decision of you or yours Keith - if it were, none of us would ever get a chance to discuss right wing maniacs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM

yes politicians come in all shapes and kinds.

obvious villains like Trump and Thatcher; wily and unfathomable like Blair and Corbyn (you tell us what he ACTUALLY thinks about Brexit); queer and creepy like Keith Joseph and Michael Howard; determinedly in opposition like Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner.....

Its bloody sad we will never know how Jo would have developed in her mature years.

I was a teacher for a few years Jim. You can spot the kids with a predisposition for violence - due always to the environment they are brought up in. I think the tragedy of Jo, is probably more to do with the way we don't attend to folks with mental health problems. i think those people are attracted to and find avenues of expression in extreme political and religious groups.

at least we don't supply the buggers with guns like they do in America. but that's small comfort.

My Dad was a nurse in a mental hospital after his main career as a policeman. (Phil Beer's Dad was his boss). He once said to me - you'd be terrified to walk the streets if you knew how many walking time bombs were out there, (This was after the great Care in the Community campaign degenerated into the Couldn't Give a Shit in the Community.)

There have always been nutty political groups - everything from flat earthers, nudists, lords day preservationists, SPUC, the IRA......but the killers. They're something else. That's the dot recurring factor.

I think the concern for loneliness and mental health is the best way to remember Jo and celebrate her life.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM

No-one can stop you Jim.
Enjoy a free hit and fill your boots because no-one will argue with you here.

While here I will just say again how much I admire the work she did even before she was a politician and that the world would have been a better place had she been allowed to live.

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 11:39 AM

"I think the concern for loneliness and mental health is the best way to remember Jo and celebrate her life."
Unfortunately she will be remembered for being the first (at present, the only) Labour politician to be assasinated
Hopefully a lesson will be learned from that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:38 PM

I hadn't considered that. Were there no Labour politicians killed before?

Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:49 AM

"Were there no Labour politicians killed before?"
So they reckon Al
Jim Carroll

---

When an obituary thread becomes more about some sort of personal squabble, than it is about the person who died, I think it's time to close the thread and let the dead rest in peace.
-Joe Offer-