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Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016)
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:49 AM "Were there no Labour politicians killed before?" So they reckon Al Jim Carroll
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:38 PM I hadn't considered that. Were there no Labour politicians killed before? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 11:39 AM "I think the concern for loneliness and mental health is the best way to remember Jo and celebrate her life." Unfortunately she will be remembered for being the first (at present, the only) Labour politician to be assasinated Hopefully a lesson will be learned from that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM No-one can stop you Jim. Enjoy a free hit and fill your boots because no-one will argue with you here. While here I will just say again how much I admire the work she did even before she was a politician and that the world would have been a better place had she been allowed to live. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM yes politicians come in all shapes and kinds. obvious villains like Trump and Thatcher; wily and unfathomable like Blair and Corbyn (you tell us what he ACTUALLY thinks about Brexit); queer and creepy like Keith Joseph and Michael Howard; determinedly in opposition like Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner..... Its bloody sad we will never know how Jo would have developed in her mature years. I was a teacher for a few years Jim. You can spot the kids with a predisposition for violence - due always to the environment they are brought up in. I think the tragedy of Jo, is probably more to do with the way we don't attend to folks with mental health problems. i think those people are attracted to and find avenues of expression in extreme political and religious groups. at least we don't supply the buggers with guns like they do in America. but that's small comfort. My Dad was a nurse in a mental hospital after his main career as a policeman. (Phil Beer's Dad was his boss). He once said to me - you'd be terrified to walk the streets if you knew how many walking time bombs were out there, (This was after the great Care in the Community campaign degenerated into the Couldn't Give a Shit in the Community.) There have always been nutty political groups - everything from flat earthers, nudists, lords day preservationists, SPUC, the IRA......but the killers. They're something else. That's the dot recurring factor. I think the concern for loneliness and mental health is the best way to remember Jo and celebrate her life. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM "this is not the place for an argument." Thankfully, not the decision of you or yours Keith - if it were, none of us would ever get a chance to discuss right wing maniacs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM That is bollocks Jim, but this is not the place for an argument. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:25 AM "Ignore me. I am unimportant, and not very bright." Not true, on either count Al. You are one of the few people I have argued with regularly, whose opinions I value I was brought up to hate and fear racism - shortly after I was born Jews were beginning to be sent to their deaths for being Jews The racism that is most worrying in Britain today is not the organised kind - the National Front self destructed, the BNP disappeared up its own Hatefest, Ukip is now tearing itself apart with somewhat entertaining internal struggles, the Britain First scumbag is due to be put on trial in Belfast.... The real problems in the world today are the politicians who are happy to use race to cover up their own inadequacies by blaming immigrants for the situation their greed and incompetence has created Powell started it and now his ghost is haunting British politics Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:40 PM i just don't think its the place. but you must act by your own lights. Ignore me. I am unimportant, and not very bright. And you are in all probability right about everything. Including the total suitability of your comments. Just say what you think needs to be said. here is your link http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-racism-hate-crime-figures-rise-white-british-being-attacked-a7360836.html Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 02:57 PM "I have made it quite clear that I think that the expression of your passionately held beliefs should be respected." We're not here top "respect" each other's views - the term itself exudes disapproval We're here to discuss each others views - that's the point of these forums You have made your disapproval of my views obvious, without having the courage to tell me why - fine by me Al, but don't try to stop me putting them forward nad when you haven't, you have distorted them - "get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu" I have "insulted" nobody and I do not blame those who voted for Brexit - my gripe is with the Nigel Farages of this world who pushed through by turning people against one another on the basis of their color, their religion and where they come from America is now in the midst of the results of such divisive racism, and Britain is heading the same way http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-racism-hate-crime-figures-rise-white-british-being-attacked-a7360836.html Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:46 PM I have made it quite clear that I think that the expression of your passionately held beliefs should be respected. so go ahead - say your piece with all the vehemence and eloquence that I know you have. Its not mandatory for me to share your beliefs. Or to state my disagreement and debate the point you raise. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM "racism and the murder of Jo Cox." Do you have a problem with that Al? As for Brexit - I have studiously avoided making an issue of it - I stated my position in passing, but at no time have I made an issue of it Read what I said, not you appear to wish me to have said "Cox's widower says he didn't believe it had anything to do with Brexit - I didn't claim it did in deference to him, but we're all entitled to our opinions" If we can't discuss these things on a thread about a politician who has been murdered by a racist who shouted out Pro-Brexit slogans, where the **** will you give us permission to do so Al Maybe you think Jo Cox shouldn't hasve involved herself in an Anti Brexit campaign the way she did? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM i don't know how to be any more conciliatory. you have drawn links between Brexit, racism and the murder of Jo Cox. I have said if this seems appropriate - dip your bread in, go for it. speak your mind and heed not for an instant the reservations that i expressed on this thread. i am sure you are being true to yourself and your deepest beliefs and feelings, and no one should disrespect this. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM " if you feel Jim, its a fitting sort of thing - " What sort of thing exactly Al? I haven't slung mud and you are the one who brought Brexit into this The American article I produced may have been headed Brexit but in fact it was pointing out how racism had become part of British politics which played an essential part in the killing of Jo Cox Her widower's article made the same comparisons, pointing out the similarities between Britain and what is happening in Trump's America - you may have noticed that American politics have been brought to a standstill because of the racist politics of the world's most powerful head of state If we can't discuss issues such as this on a thread which was set up to pay tribute to a young politicians who was assassinated by a racist we may as well restrict these threads to cable-stitch and macrame You are accusing me of something here - have the decency to say what exactly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM i haven't slung mud. but i haven't been reverent. if you feel Jim, its a fitting sort of thing - you go ahead. and pay no attention to what I've said. just go ahead and say what you think needs to be said, and I apologise to you, and everyone else, for being a contrary old git. it was my birthday this week. (intimations of mortality!) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM "As I've already made clear, I don't believe an obituary thread is the place for mud-slinging and invective." There has ben no mud-slinging here - unless you consider Mr Cox's statement and the American article to be that To claim that a discussion you took no part other than to attempt to close it has "run its course".... lost for words. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM As I've already made clear, I don't believe an obituary thread is the place for mud-slinging and invective. I've made my opinion clear, as an obituary I believe this discussion has run its course. To avoid further comment I will withdraw from this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:48 AM "Unlike your invective laden posts, I merely suggested that a mud-elf might like to consider closing the thread." On a subject you didn't care enough to contribute to - not even to acknowledge the death of the victim of a political assassination If you believe that discussing the reasons for killing of a British politician has no place in her obituary, we inhabit different worlds - but we already knew that It has not become a mud-singing thread Sen - it was dealing with the life and death of a young woman - a tribute to her. What has caused this furore was a link to an interview with her widower Should we allow the passing of such a human being as Jo Cox go without an attamept to discuss why she died? As I said to Nigel - not in my world Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM For what my feeble contribution may be worth, I wholeheartedly agree with both Nigel and Big Al in their modest and measured responses to some of the (usual) vitriol on this thread. They have apologised if anyone has been offended, made their views known without nastiness and deserve merit for their restraint. I also agree that this started as an Obit thread, and it has now become an undignified mud-slinging match. Lastly, I voted for Brexit and still want it to go ahead. I vote Conservative. I am not racist. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:25 AM Jim, Unlike your invective laden posts, I merely suggested that a mud-elf might like to consider closing the thread. There is already a new thread discussing the legacy of Jo Cox, and I don't feel that an obituary thread is the place for some of the more strident comments now being placed here. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:04 AM "Perhaps a mud-elf would consider closing this thread, as it has served for an obituary, but is no longer serving that purpose." Isn't it somewhat arrogant of you to take it on yourself to decide when a thread is finished, especially when your only posting on the murder of a young woman politician by a right-wing thug is that the subject is over as far as ytou are concerned Remind me again which side of the political spectrum you represent Nigel Big Brother is watching us indeed!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:41 AM I'm with PFR on this one, and will quote him: I'd suggest the time is now right to open up a new thread dedicated to Jo Cox's legacy; and the impact of her cruel murder on how left and right can interact more positively to find common ground amidst all the usual combative insults... Perhaps a mud-elf would consider closing this thread, as it has served for an obituary, but is no longer serving that purpose. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM "In my opinion it was because of the racism that was incited by those who pushed through Brexit" Jim if that's the opening statement and its not intended as insulting....well its not exactly a compliment to call someone a racist. still. look, if that's what you honestly think. fire away! pay no attention at all to me. I'm old and I'm not in the swim of things. I'm probably wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:20 PM "get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu" I just pointed out my position on this Al - don't YOU stary misinterpreting my position - we already have enough of them Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM i admit i don't know enough about britain alone, or the killer to argue. or syrian refugees. i suppose if you're convinced, you must do what you think is right. get on with insulting everyone who voted to leave the eu. if you think that is what will honour Jo Cox's memory. I can see its a sincerely held view. go ahead. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:42 AM "but why did she die. Was it because the campaign she was waging was against people who are inherently evil?" In my opinion it was because of the rcism that was incited by those who pushed through Brexit - the reports pointed out that the killer actually shouted the Brexit slogan about Britain standing alone, but he also made a statement about Syrian refugees Cox's widower says he didn't believe it had anything to do with Brexit - I didn't claim it did in deference to him, but we're all entitled to our opinions You really can't separate the rise of racism in Britain from the way the Brexit campaign was conducted - it doesn't mean all those who voted to leave were stupid or evil - that's reserved for scumbags like Farage and his type The killer had links with the 'Britain Alone' group who are due to go on trial for racial incitement in Belfast in the near future "English society." English politics maybe, most people, even those who hold racist views, are fairly tolerant? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:16 AM I'm sorry if I offended you. but why did she die. Was it because the campaign she was waging was against people who are inherently evil? I don't think so. The temperature of the public debate was raised to hysterical levels, by demagogues who were indulging inflated rhetoric, because the facts were in short supply.....and some people simply didn't have the education and political sophistication to divine the situation. do i want to jump into the same stinking bullshit fest. no i bloody don't and i don't think to do so would be much of a way to remember Jo Cox. Frankly her death was a triumphant vindication of nothing. just a bloody shameful day for English society. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:31 AM "Okay you want to hi-jack this lady's name to sling shit " That's more than a little beneath you Al The people you mentioned were victims of the people who slaughtered Jo Cox Nobody here has mentioned Brexit other than you, who have brought it up twice We get your message - Cox doesn't deserve recognition for why she died and who killed her Your view - your choice Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:01 AM Theres another tradition - much more powerful that stalks the land. Much more relevant to most people . More feared than the evils of Brexiteers and assorted right wing nutters. And Jo Cox more obviously to most people belongs in that group. The victims of nutters in a sick, semieducated society. The kids in a Warrington MacDonalds, the people of Hungerford, the children at a Manchester concert hall, the children of Dunblane... most of them anonymous. All of them victims of sick bastards who felt they had the right to take the future of other people and blight their families with grief. Okay you want to hi-jack this lady's name to sling shit at the people who voted who voted against membership of the EU. Go ahead. But 'debate' at that temperature is what dumb fuck who killed her was brooding about. You might be comfortable with it, but the thought of it turns my stomach. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM There is a great deal of lip service being payed to the death of Jo Cox, unfortunately some of it being paid by people who, I know, really should know better ans do, if they think about it. This 'obituary' was made political in the secong posting to this thread when somebody wrote "We do not know what "she died for." Probably just a nut with a gun who would have killed someone someday anyway." It was obvious then why Cox died and has become more obvious as time has passed To attempt to separate her death from the reason she died is the greatest disrespect you could possibly pay to a good, dedicated person People die every day and are missed by those who knew them - this is not the case here Cox died because she fought for decency and a better world, and that needs to be acknowledged She died a year and a half ago; until Keberoxu reopened the thread, the last comment on her death on this thread was - a year and a half ago So much for opening another thread - she had been forgotten, including by those who are now urging that we shouldn't discuss why she died. As THIS ARTICLE points out, there is more to the death of Jo Cox than the passing of a fine young woman She is one in a long list of people that stretches back centuries, who have attempted to make the world a better place: Jo Cox, Blair Peach, Victor Jara, Rachel Corrie, George Jackson... how far do you want to go back? - Joe Hill, Sacco and Vanzetti - all people to be remembered with love and respect, alongside those who didn't die but just suffered for a better world, like Mandela and Mordechai Vanunu, still subject to persecution and constant threats after over thirty years - for telling the world what it needed to know. There is a WONDERFUL SONG that commemorates people like Jo Cox - if it included everybody who should be remembered in this way it would have a thousand verses Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM "This is not the place to start a political argument Jim." Because you are a prime example of what I am talking about No argument - there is no need for one so 'nuff said Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:43 PM I think we can all feel sad that our society is producing creatures who perpetrate this sort of thing...cut off a life, lived so worthily; a young life full of promise and achievement, without necessarily agreeing about everything. if that's crocodile tears - a simple request. Leave this thread me and my fellow reptiles. Go and name call somewhere else. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM I accept the point that politics may have relevance in an obituary and you could well be right that it has its place here. I am with Al on his point though. There is no place for bickering and personal point scoring at the gragveside. For that reason I shall leave it there. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:37 AM This is not the place to start a political argument Jim. Why use my name? I did not correct your claim that the killer had "links" to any organisation. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 18 - 07:14 AM "Was Marx responsible for the Gulags. " No the Tsarist regimes were - a long time before Marx The Bolsheiks took over what had been long established - some of them had done time in the Gulags Re Jo Cox She was a victim of the right wing extremism she gave her life fighting - she deserves to be remembered for that fact - not by crocodile tars and lip-service Even Keith went through the motions Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:45 PM well i trust her legacy is a positive one. someone of great decency, who dedicated herself to paying an active role in the democratic process. we should have great reverence and respect for the memory of such a person. what is being proposed is a graveside slanging match about sodding brexit. this tererible murder was probably a byproduct of just such 'debate' - though i personally refuse to dignify the exchanges of abuse that were around at the time with the term 'debate'. i find the prospect distasteful in the extreme. if you have a talent for abuse and long to exercise it, take it somewhere else than the obituary of this lady. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: punkfolkrocker Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:12 PM I'd suggest the time is now right to open up a new thread dedicated to Jo Cox's legacy; and the impact of her cruel murder on how left and right can interact more positively to find common ground amidst all the usual combative insults... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:29 PM well maybe i'm wrong then. all i know is i don't want to argue here. from what i've seen - its not easy to influence and change opinion. if you think you're in with a chance - go ahead. if you just want to shout the odds... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:48 PM I find I'm with you on this, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM I'm not sure, Jim. I don't feel that in this case. I wouldn't mind crossing swords over whether, someone who initiates a thought is responsible for all the hell that is attributed to it. Was Marx responsible for the Gulags. Nietzsche responsible for Auswitz. Christ responsible for the Spanish Inquisition....Is the best thing to think and say nothing just in case some arsehole with limited intelligence is listening? But I don't think this thread of overwhelming sadness is the place. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:02 AM "But not on an obit thread." Where better Dave I've been to too many anodynely conducted, lip-service funerals to realise that they are a waste of time unless they celebrate the life of the deceased in order to carry on their work I'll tell you about the lasting effect my father's funeral had on my life sometime Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM It was Jim and that discussion needs to take place. But not on an obit thread. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM Jo Cox's death was a political assassination by the extremist right Dave Her killer had links with some of those due to go to trial for provoking racial hatred The link I put up was to a statement by her widower who obviously understands the cause of her death is very much a part of what is happening today It would be a waste of her life to ignore the facts surrounding her death and its wider implications Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:44 AM This was an obit thread about Jo Cox and was brought back to the fore because of her legacy. Don't spoil it trying to score political points. DtG |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jan 18 - 01:37 PM "but he gave no one a mandate or approval for a monstrous act like that." Racism like his opens the door to it - the rest comes easy to some people jIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM so young! 1974, i was in my mid twenties, when she was born. you can't really join up the thinking about an incident like that. its bereft of all decency....its a victory for the arseholes, whatever their political thinking. farage has many faults but he gave no one a mandate or approval for a monstrous act like that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:11 AM Nice piece of joined-up thinking HERE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness From: keberoxu Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:44 PM In very recent news, the Commission on Loneliness, part of Jo Cox's legacy, has received an appointment of Tracey Crouch as minister, to carry on Cox's work. quotes the late Jo Cox and her widower Brendan |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:04 AM True enough, and pretty disgraceful. Fortunately, when it comes to dealing with guns, our political culture works differently. If there is any loophole in our gun laws that made it easier for the killer having that gun, they will certainly be blocked. But whether there will be less toleration for hate speech and general nastiness in political discourse is a lot less certain. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974-2016) From: mkebenn Date: 21 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM Too much to hope for indeed, McGrath. Our congress just shit caned four of the most menial of gun control measures that almost 90% of ALL Americans are in favor of because of one very powerful yet small lobby, after the senseless slaughter in Orlando. Mike |
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