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recognise this Sally Sloane jig?

Ian Hayden 26 Jun 16 - 07:49 AM
leeneia 26 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 26 Jun 16 - 11:20 PM
leeneia 27 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 16 - 03:39 PM
Ian Hayden 27 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM
Sandra in Sydney 27 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 16 - 09:07 PM
leeneia 28 Jun 16 - 11:55 AM
Helen 28 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM
Ian Hayden 28 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM
Sandra in Sydney 28 Jun 16 - 08:02 PM
Helen 29 Jun 16 - 03:12 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 16 - 07:09 PM
Sandra in Sydney 29 Jun 16 - 09:41 PM
Bruce D 13 Jul 16 - 02:16 AM
Sandra in Sydney 13 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM
Ian Hayden 13 Jul 16 - 06:24 PM
Ian Hayden 13 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM
Sandra in Sydney 13 Jul 16 - 09:48 PM
Ian Hayden 14 Jul 16 - 08:09 PM
Sandra in Sydney 15 Jul 16 - 04:39 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 16 - 09:36 PM
DaveJohnson 17 Nov 16 - 04:00 AM
Sandra in Sydney 17 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM
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Subject: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:49 AM

Does anyone recognise the jig played by Sally Sloane on fiddle at http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-214815261/listen/0-1289~0-1363

Title was given as 'Nicky Nick-Nack'. My transcription in abc is:

X:1
T:Nicky Nack-Nack
S:from the playing of Sally Sloane
L:1/8
M:6/8
K:D
A,|:D2D (CB,A,)|F2F E2G|F2A, A,2B,|=C3 (CB,A,)|
|D2D (CB,A,)|F2F E2G|F2A, (A,B,C)|1D3-D2A,:|2D3-D2G|]
|:A2A A2F|GGG G2G|F2A, A,2B,|=C3 (CB,A,)|
|D2D (CB,A,)|F2F E2G|F2A, (A,B,C)|1D3-D2G:|2D3-D2A,|]

thanks, Ian


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM

Hello, Ian. I copied your abc abc converter at Mandolin.net. Your tune is quite similar to a jig I have heard somewhere, but I can't remember where or what its name is. The jig I've heard doesn't go from C# to C natural, like yours.

I hope this means that the tune is famous enough that another Mudcatter will be inspired to listen and identify it.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 11:20 PM

I should add some context for my interest in this jig.
Sally Sloane was born in the 1890's and lived all her life in country NSW. She picked up her songs and tunes by ear from her Irish grandmother and itinerant workers in the area during the early 20th century. She had a very good ear for recalling and playing this music when she was recorded in her sixties by John Meredith.

When I heard this jig and couldn't find a match in my usual traditional tune sources I began to wonder where it might have originated. And I'm still wondering!


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM

so am I. You posted on a weekend, Ian, and on weekends not many people are on the Mudcat. Now that it's Monday, perhaps someone will be on who recognizes the tune.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 03:39 PM

It resembles the song "I care for nobody, no not I, and nobody cares for me" but it's not the same.

Does she really play it that low? I'd expect this:

X:1
T:Nicky Nack-Nack
S:from the playing of Sally Sloane
L:1/8
M:6/8
K:D
A|d2d (cBA)|f2f e2g|f2A  A2B |=c3 (cBA)|
  d2d (cBA)|f2f e2g|f2A (ABc)| d3- d2 :|
g|a2a  a2f |ggg g2g|f2A  A2B |=c3 (cBA)|
  d2d (cBA)|f2f e2g|f2A (ABc)| d3- d2 :|


I've cleaned up your notation a bit - no need for variant repeats if you make the repeat start on the upbeat.

Afterthought: I looked it up in Charles Gore's "Scottish Fiddle Tune Index", which gave me the "official" title.

X:2
T:The Miller of Dee
B:Sabine Baring Gould, 1895, Old English Songs from English Minstrelsie, 1895 
F: http://www.folkinfo.org/songs 
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:GMin
D     |G2G ^F2  D|B2B  A2c| B2 G A2^F|G3- G2 
w:There was a jol-ly mil-ler once Liv'd on the riv-er Dee, 
D     |G2G ^F2  D|B2B  A2c|(BA)G A2^F|G3- G2 
w:He work'd and sang from morn till night, No lark_ more blithe than he.
(B/c/)|d2d  d2  B|c2c  c2A| B2 G c2 B|(B3 A2) 
w:And_ this the bur-den of his song For-ev-er us'd to be,_
 D    |G2G ^F>=ED|B2B HA2c| B>AG A2^F|G3- G2|] 
w: I care for no-bod-y, no not I, If no-bod-y cares for me.


England's new national anthem.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM

Thanks Jack, have a listen to this recording and you'll hear how she pitched the tune. During the same session she played dance tunes on her fiddle in a higher range and played song melodies in lower pitches, which reinforces your suggestion that it was originally a song melody.

The purposely flattened long note (which I notated as a C natural) is a distinctive aspect of the tune which doesn't feature in the songs mentioned so far.

And thanks for the hint regarding writing repeats more tidily, which I'll do in future.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

Sally Sloane biography

Sally Sloane in concert, 1980


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 09:07 PM

I still think it's basically the same tune as "The Miller of Dee", but arrested in mid-evolution between minor and major. Her intonation is pretty indecisive - you'd have to listen to a lot of her playing to work out whether she really meant the neutral thirds you hear there.

A rummage round Sam Henry's Songs of the People or the Greig-Duncan Collection might produce more versions to compare it with.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: leeneia
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:55 AM

Thanks, Jack. I'm glad you recognized it as similar to the Miller of Dee.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

Hi Ian,

Do you know whether the Sally Sloane jig is mentioned in either of the two books by John Meredith and Hugh Anderson?

Folk Songs of Australia and the Men and Women Who Sang Them

Folk Songs Of Australia Book 2

There may be more information there. I can find my copy of book 1 but I have to do a little search for book 2. I had it out a few weeks ago so it can't have gone far, but I just have to find out where it is hiding.

These two books are little short of amazing. Meredith and Anderson travelled around parts of Australia, or maybe just in the state of New South Wales - I'll have to check on that - talking to the old time musicians with the aim of collecting as many songs and tunes they could find. They also interviewed the musicians, and quite often there will be information about where they learned the tune. The most interesting thing for me is that, because of the relative isolation of many of the musicians from each other, the tunes and songs evolved separately according to how they were transmitted and interpreted by the different musicians.

The link above, given by Ian, to the sound recording of Sally Sloane, is the original recording by Meredith and Anderson. Book 1, back in 1967, was responsible for initiating my love of folk music. I used to borrow it from the library.

Jack, I definitely hear similarities to The Miller of the Dee, which we used to sing at school. When I first listened to the recording I knew it reminded me of something, but I couldn't pinpoint it in my jumbled brain. (That was so, so long ago - singing that in school!)

Helen


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM

hi Helen, its good to hear that Merro's collecting work has had the same impact on you. His tapes are a rich motherlode with many rare, unpolished gems waiting to be played.

I've checked in his 1st book and didn't find any mention of this tune but I don't have the 2nd title. It would be great if you could look through your book too. I'm wondering if Meredith's notes held in the NLA might shed more light on his recordings of Sally's tunes and I might take a drive down to Canberra once I've completed transcribing her known tunes.

BTW, I can hear the similarity to the Miller of Dee - its definitely in the same 'family' as that tune.

thanks, Ian


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:02 PM

Helen, if you can't find vol.2 easily, I can check the BMC library & archives on Friday

I also only have vol 2. I had a chance to buy the last copy held by BMC a few years ago, but took it to the National where we sold it to some lucky muso for only $10. I just looked on a couple of websites & can't see any for sale.

Strangely enough the BMC library does not have copies of most of Merro's books, but I'm planning to look for those we don't have - when the library & archives are sorted - when the renovations are finished & we have a wall of lockable library cupboards.

for those who don'y know about John Meredith pioneer role in collecting Australian traditional songs & tunes - articles by & about Merro on BMC's blog and wikipedia on John Meredith

sandra


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:12 AM

Hi Sandra,

I found it after repeated searches all over the house, and it was hiding behind another music book on the usual shelf. Naughty, mischievous book!

There are no contributions by Sally Sloane in book 2.

Ian, I think the jig being "in the same family" as The Miller of the Dee is a good description.

I just read the brief bio of Sally Sloane and her mother and grandmother. I didn't realise that she and her husband Fred lived in Lake Macquarie, near Newcastle.

Helen


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:09 PM

Thanks Sandra for the links to the old photos and biographical info on Sally's life. Did you ever meet her?

I've heard from musos who knew her in later years that she was quite a formidable woman with strong views on how her songs and tunes should be performed (which is only natural, of course). I'd like to get a better understanding of her personality etc. She had a good friendship with John Meredith, which comes out in some little asides on his tape recordings.

cheers, Ian


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 09:41 PM

Ian, she is one of the many early members I wish I had known. I joined BMC in the mid 90s & could have met Merro & other early members but I was "just" dancing in those days & they were musicians, often retired so not spending time in Sydney. I met Chris Kempster in 2000 & in the past 10 years have become friends with members from the 50s & 60s. I learn so much from them.

I';m currently scanning early archival material & putting it up on the blog. Larger items will eventually be put on our website. If you are interested in history of the early days of the revival check out the blog articles under History, Singabout (journal of Australian folksong, 1956-1967), Maher collection, Woodland collection (Chris was a friend of Merro & went on collecting trips with him), individual members & events.

sandra (secretary BMC)


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Bruce D
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 02:16 AM

Sandra, you might like to check with Dave Johnson about the Sally Sloane tunes. Its a pity that Bob Bolton isn't avaliable to check up on it.

Bruce D


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

Bruce, I've emailed him


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 06:24 PM

g'day Bruce

Dave has been very helpful with info on Sally and her tunes. I'm in the process of compiling a website of all her recorded tunes and have made some interesting discoveries along the way.

cheers, Ian


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM

bugger ... I stuffed up the website address. It is https://sallysloane.wordpress.com


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:48 PM

stuff up = not including http in address, the first lesson learnt on Mudcat, which is full of such stuff ups followed by apologies.

congratulations, it's a great website, I'll put it BMC's August eLIST.

Are you a member of the folklore network? folklore network facebook page


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Ian Hayden
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:09 PM

Cheers Sandra,

Rob Willis added me to that interest group on facebook. And he's provided great support and encouragement for my little project.


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 04:39 AM

another good bloke


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 09:36 PM

Sally Sloane sang a song to the same melody as this jig during the recording session with John Meredith. She called it the Chandler's Wife and it sounds like she used the 'nicky nick nack' to substitute for some bawdy words. I can't make out the lyrics to the song but you can hear the original recording at http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-214815261/listen/0-862~0-911   (if using Chrome browser)


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: DaveJohnson
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:00 AM

Just revisiting old emails and decided to respond albeit belatedly.
Lyrics for The Chandlers Wife are here http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/Chandlers_Wife(2).htm
(couldn't find a (1) or one without a number)


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Subject: RE: recognise this Sally Sloane jig?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

Lyrics for The Chandlers Wife


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