BS: Trump again

Subject: BS: Can We Discuss Trump Or Not
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 06:38 PM

I don't see what the problem is here - please elucidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Discuss Trump Or Not
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 06:54 PM

What's to discuss about the ass-clown?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 07:41 PM

Well, we could discuss why the last two threads initiated & posted about The Trumpshit were killed out of hand in their infancy by the mods.....

And then we could get on with discussing the latest asshole pronouncements by himself and why he is totally unfit to be a high school custodian, never mind the Prez. of the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 08:31 PM

Greg go to age: at top of page and select 7 days, find original trump thread and post there.

do not start threads by same name.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 09 Aug 16 - 11:59 PM

Akenaton camps out on these threads and makes them worse than they need to be. He insists on contributing every third or fourth post to argue with people in the US about American candidates. If he stays away - or his posts are deleted before everyone starts arguing with him - then maybe this one will stick around.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 12:36 AM

So, the other two Trump threads are closed. Might be an idea to talk about Trump on this thread, hey?

Did I hear Ake say that most of the liberals at Mudcat supported the Bush invasion of Iraq? I have to say that I was surprised and disappointed that Hillary voted for it. I don't think she'd do it now, although she is more "hawkish" than I would like.
But I think most U.S. Mudcatters were against the invasion of Iraq. I certainly opposed it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 02:45 AM

Well I remember it well Joe and you did oppose it....but to most people here at the time Saddam was the real villain and had to be removed.....the likely repercussions were rarely discussed by US ers.

I agree with Greg 100% over the blocking of these threads(sorry Greg :0)).

None of the threads were personally abusive and I don't see how we can discuss Mr Trump without also discussing the election as a whole.

I may be wrong, but I don't see it as the business of the mods to impose political censorship on the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 03:07 AM

" He insists on contributing every third or fourth post to argue with people in the US about American candidates."

To be fair, if the US appoints itself 'leader of the free world' then those of us in the free world have a stake in these elections too, and we're as entitled to comment on it as anyone else. The influence of the US across the world for good or bad means everyone has an opinion, and everyone is affected.

Also, your president came over here with a stick rather than a carrot during the run up to the EU referendum and gave his two penneth (making things worse for us remainers), so if we are to suffer direct interference in our affairs then a few folk commenting on a forum thread is the least of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:24 AM

When someone doesn't contribute to the various threads, but changes the subject to his hatred of one candidate, he isn't furthering the conversation. And saying it over and over and over suggests that he thinks repeating a lie often enough will make it become the truth.

And now he has managed to turn the thread from Trump to himself. That is an old troll trick.

It was horrifying that Bush started a war in Iraq, and wretched to see how anyone who opposed it was immediately pounced upon as unpatriotic if they didn't get behind Baby Bush right after 9-11. Cheney lied. Many people were fooled.

But you haven't seen nothin' yet, if Trump were to be elected, the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court will have to spend all of their time keeping him in line and acting to correct his judgement errors. He doesn't have a clue what the Constitution is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 08:07 AM

Er, well I wasn't so much supporting your views Ake (which I disagree with strongly) as defending your right to air them, and more to the point I was taking issue with Vashta's post which implied only US citizens have an interest or perhaps even a stake in this election, even if only they have the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 08:57 AM

"If Hillary wins the election our loyal 2nd amendment militias will save our guns by killing her" sic.
Donald Trump

This is the rhetoric I always expected from trump. Fascism requires violence nd murder.

Now if Ake or his ilk takes pride in his might is right philosophy, he is no longer a human o me. If he is happy as a powerful murderous bully,

he is my sworn enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 09:41 AM

Ake, I remember in one Trump thread, you only seemed to want to talk about Hillary. That is what I believe Acme is talking about. Also, if it turns into personal battle and the "arguments" target a specific other poster, there's a good chance the post or the thread will get deleted.

Don, that's not what he said. That's just how a lot of people (including me) heard it. It's good, though, because the more shit comes out of his mouth, the more of his followers see the light. Let's just hope he doesn't manage to knock down any dominoes while he's talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM

There are times when I miss the plain-speaking of the Muskets.

Trump is a demagogue and bully and we want to talk about him in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 09:59 AM

Fascists are falling over each other to parse what trump said.

At the end of the day the one thing no one can take back now
is the fact that Permission has been given!

Permission to point 3/4 of a million guns at Hillary's head and triggers squeezed.

Its not hardball anymore, its government by gun, by people who smile at the prospect but claim "I didn't do anything".

Yes, you did't do anything.
That's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 10:02 AM

My wife was telling me about a series of experiments undertaken by behavioral scientists. Young children watched puppets performing short vignettes, after which they were allowed to choose one of the puppets to play with. When shown one puppet acting politely and another acting badly, the children almost uniformly chose to play with the "nice" puppet. When shown a puppet who liked the type of breakfast cereal the children themselves liked and another puppet who liked something else, the children almost always chose the puppet who liked their own favorite cereal. But when shown the cereal vignette and the good puppet/bad puppet vignette sequentially, the children almost always chose to play with the puppet who liked their favorite cereal, even if it was the bad puppet.

My interpretation of this is that the children identified puppets who like their own favorite cereal as members of their own "tribe". They formed tribal identities based on a very basic commonality: food preference. They were willing to ignore bad behavior on the part of other tribe members, but not in non-tribe members. Tribal identity trumps morality.

This says a lot to me about Donald Trump's appeal and, most importantly, why he's able to get away with the outlandishly offensive comments he makes. He has established himself as a member of the "disaffected white people" tribe by appealing to base level wants and needs, like economic (in)security, and ignoring higher level concerns like morality, wisdom, and rationality. Other disaffected white people are willing to ignore, even applaud, comments and behaviors from Trump that they'd never find acceptable coming from a non-tribe member.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 12:45 PM

No, Donald Trump did not say that the 2nd Amendment supporters should kill Hillary. However, his implication was clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 02:15 PM

Joe there are times in life when moral outrage and grief are appropriate. I daresay you missed this particular opportunity. Now that the nation is openly discussing the assassination of Hillary Clinton no one can put the genie back in the bottle. The damage is done. The gun of Damocles is loaded, and Trump merely made an implication?

BEE W, I have watched the good/bad puppet experiments. Point well taken. Perhaps you see my perspective of Trump using what I call, in this case of insinuating permission to shoot, oblique hypnotic suggestion?
Every discipline has its own language.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 02:23 PM

Is it possible that remarks like these, which seem to be "off the cuff" ad libs, are actually carefully calculated and scripted?

His recent remark about the "second amendment folks" may have been designed to suggest to his followers that he actually approves of assassinating Hillary while still providing plausible deniability when others interpret it that way.

Could he be that clever?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 03:39 PM

Don, Joe didn't miss the opportunity. You misunderstood what he said.

Is it just me, or are many of us just looking for offensive things?

Bev and Jerry, it was a fairly obvious hint. That can't indicate the slightest smidgen of cleverness. It was ham-handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:15 PM

Missed this - has it been discussed that Trump has suggested the use of ncler weapons on three occasions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:23 PM

Trump again,
Trump again,
jiggety-jig

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:34 PM

The Chicago Tribune (click) has a good article about The Donald and The Nukes. It's similar to his quip on 2nd Amendment people and Hillary - he says it, and then he denies it, but he leaves the thought there. And so he has succeeded in issuing a horrible threat while retaining some degree of deniability. It's insidious.

This sort of practice is common among lecherous men who make sexually-threatening remarks toward women and then immediately deny that they said anything of the sort. Such veiled threats may be even more damaging than direct threats, because the culprits often succeed in escaping culpability. Like I said, it's insidious.

Of course, the entire Republican Party has been doing this to Hillary since 1992, to the point where even Bernie Sanders supporters believe them. They have well-nigh destroyed the reputation of a good woman, and they deny culpability. They made Trump their candidate, and now they deny culpability. Need I say it again? It's insidious.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 04:36 PM

Surely in America the idea of presidential assassination is always present, even when unspoken?

For a presidential candidate to impliciitly invite it for an opponent is however a new departure, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:19 PM

... he actually approves of assassinating Hillary while still providing plausible deniability when others interpret it that way. Could he be that clever?

No, He's a moron - but his handlers - especially Roger Stone - ARE that clever and unprincipled.

For a presidential candidate to impliciitly invite it for an opponent is however a new departure, I believe.

Yup, that's The Trumpshit and his followers in spades. HEIL TRUMP!!! Brownshirts R Us.

Is it possible that remarks like these, which seem to be "off the cuff" ad libs, are actually carefully calculated and scripted?


Absolutely. The Trumpshit- although he's an absolute moron and a crook into the bargain - is well aware of what he says.

This is a man who described his "romantic escapades" (i.e. indiscriminate rutting)in the 1980's as his "personal Vietnam" because he put himself at risk of sexually transmitted diseases. He stated that this made him feel "like a great and very brave soldier". (see Howard Stern interview). He's a real 14 karat piece of shit.

Of course, the entire Republican Party has been doing this to Hillary since 1992

Not just Hillary, Joe - ALL women.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:19 PM

I'm thinking the election is going to be a landslide like we've never seen before. Then, think about this, what happens after that?

I think this is what it looks like when a whole country jumps the shark.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 05:27 PM

I'm thinking the election is going to be a landslide like we've never seen before.

Not necessarily, if the die-hard Bernie Folks and Greenies persist in throwing their votes away & thereby electing The Trumpshit...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 06:18 PM

Does Trump exaggerate extravagantly ?
yes
Does he lie eloquently?
No,
it always has a ham handed quality done in incomplete sentences.

When deal making can this technique be used with plausible deniability?
Yes.

Can one be so clever?
Yes

Most people here can read between the lines.
Its just as easy to speak between the lines.

Greg drank the kool aid and thinks trump is a stupid bumbling moron gaffe giraffe with no idea what will come out of his mouth.

Truth is Donald does know. This a guy who anonymously pretended to be a public relation expert for himself. Do you think that was an accident?

If you still have your doubts, fine, but do not apologize for Donald. You will regret it. I have had experiences which leaves me without a shred of naiveté' . Life is nice when you remain naïve, like a happy delusion, but it is escapist.

In a political campaign all you need to do is deny a particular meaning while your opponent is put in a position or quandary of having to deny something absurd.
"I know he didn't ruck a pig, I just want to hear him deny it!"
L.B.J.
To control the 24/7 news cycle just keep outraging people.   

Landslide or not the suggestion will live on.




Or as amos might succinctly say
"Its all Brand BS"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 06:54 PM

Greg drank the kool aid and thinks trump is a stupid bumbling moron

Drank the Kool-Aid ??? - gimmie a break, that'd a standard Republicrap talking point .

The Trumpshit IS an ignorant narcissistic moron (and a crook into the bargain if anyone wishes to check his business history of stiffing workers and contractors and refusing to rent to Black folks)- and he continually lies out of both sides of his mouth at once - but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to engage OTHER ignorant morons and solicit their support to his ignorant, fascist cause.

He's a complete piece of shit.

Full stop.

But the folks that would vore for him and who support him and shout out at his rallies RE: President Obama: "F**K THE NI**ER" are .......... somethimg else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 07:26 PM

Being half deaf I could at least hear you this time Greg.
You know I am open to the possibility that a smiling Hitler does better than an angry one. It is possible Trump is simply a natural
mother .......
It is trump supporters, not me, who claim in their defense that trump does not know what he is saying. Greg do not do their job.

Joe it is now apparent with one added adjective (insidious) that you did not let Trump sneak under the radar recently. Good for you buddy.


Every outrageous piece of tripe will now be thrown by FOX and Repukians for the next 89 days with fairly tepid Hillary commercials, in response.







"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"

(insidious insinuation)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 07:29 PM

The danger for everyone is that too many Americans are going to assume that Trump has no chance of winning.

That means no need to vote for Hillary (and an awful lot of people clearly don't particularly want to vote for her) - staying at home, or voting for fringe candidates - and also people, who don't actually fancy Trump as president, feeling a vote for him is a risk-free way of registering a protest, or even just having a joke. The Monster Raving Loony Candidate.

And you get the Monster Raving Loony President. Which isn't funny any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 07:48 PM

The danger for everyone is that too many Americans are going to assume that Trump has no chance of winning.

That means no need to vote for Hillary (and an awful lot of people clearly don't particularly want to vote for her) - staying at home, or voting for fringe candidates - ...

Amen, Kevin. A vote for "none of the above" is a vote for The Trumpshit.

And the Trumpshit is way beyond the Monster Raving Looney Party. The last thing he is is "funny".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 08:47 PM

Jeri says: I'm thinking the election is going to be a landslide like we've never seen before.

I sure hope that's true, Jeri - and that the landslide will favor the Democrats. It will take a Democratic landslide to reform the Republican Party and cleanse of all the Trump and Tea Party nonsense. [Damn! I almost used that puerile "Trumpshit" moniker...] The United States needs two rational political parties, to balance things out and keep things honest. The Republican Party has been dominated by extremists for far too long.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 09:11 PM

Joe listening to cable news (which I'm getting fairly sick of), the polls favor Clinton, often in double digits. Plus, a lot of Repub former Trump supporters are bailing. I hope a lot of people vote, but I'm also thinking many X-Trumpers are going to refrain from voting, or will vote for someone else.

I also think the Republican party as it is, is finished. They'll have to re-shape the whole party.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 09:47 PM

oversimplified but clear:

The 2 parties in America have roughly been the rich party and the poor party. Neither are essentially rational all the time.

The rich party has achieved rulings to abolish half of the voting rights act, citizens united has made independent multi national corporations to spend unlimited money on our lections, and the Court ruled that money is free speech to be used to out shout people with no money. The rich party has created more billionaires than anytime in history.

The poor party has legalized unions, abolished child labor, made a new deal safety net for the needy, established safety and protection agencies, established a civil rights act and promote the health and welfare of the people.   

Both parties can over do it or become addicted to the access to power and money. The skeleton or infrastructure is one of neglect by both parties.

-----------------------


In answer to McGrath, The percentage of American Presidents who have narrowly survived actual assassination attempts along with those have died from attacks is 10%. Surely that can not be an excuse to dismiss inciting people to commit murder.

Historically there are a couple of bad actors who can be compared to Trump like Aaron Burr and Andrew Jackson.

--------------------------

The path to victory by Trump can only be by nefarious/tragic means or by a historic extra large voter turnout.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 11:25 PM

Ignore the polls - who knows what tiny fraction of the population can be reached to answer those questions.

Don't ignore the poll - the voting booth. Go Vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 16 - 11:30 PM

I never would have thought of that... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 03:36 AM

every time he shoots himself in the foot

would that make him an air-sole ?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 07:48 AM

It will take a Democratic landslide to reform the Republican Party and cleanse of all the Trump and Tea Party nonsense.

Unfortunately Joe, a Dem landslide will most assuredly NOT "reform the Republican Party" OR the Trumpists, OR the "Tea Party">

The Repubs, beginning with Reagan, have over the last quarter-century created, Dr. Frankenstein-like, a monster they can no longer control.

It will take at least another quarter-century to "reform" the party, if its susceptible of reform at all at this point.

As for "reforming" the howling mobs of brain-damaged Trump supporters, I wish you luck with that as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 12:02 PM

This is the Trump campaign. Just substitute "Trump" for "Malkovich." And he does not care how he gets us to say it.

The Trump Campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 01:29 PM

And yet more spew from The Trumpshit:

***
Mr. Trump defended his portrayal of the president as a "founder" of ISIS, despite criticism that the claim was both inaccurate and inflammatory. In a rally on Wednesday night in Sunrise, Fla., Mr. Trump suggested that the Islamic State "honors" Mr. Obama, and he went out of his way to refer to "the administration of Barack Hussein Obama," emphasizing the president's middle name.

On CNBC's "Squawk Box" on Thursday morning, when an interviewer pressed Mr. Trump on the propriety of his claim about Mr. Obama's responsibility for the rise of the Islamic State, Mr. Trump said it was "absolutely" the case and added: "Is there something wrong with saying that? Are people complaining that I said he was the founder of ISIS?"
***

Unbelievable. Even for a turd with legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 04:06 PM

Bush, Obama and Clinton certainly contributed to the rise of ISIS
US intervention in Iraq Libya and Syria provided the ideal breeding ground for Islamic terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 04:24 PM

Un Hunh, Ake - emphasis on George Dumbya Bush and his contrived war. Also thank Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz - and for that matter war criminal Henry Kissinger- God Damn Them All

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 06:21 PM

At the Indiana Trump rally sitting right behind Donald was the ultimate power couple. Sauron and Voldemort.

Subject: BS: Short Conversations
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Aug 16 - 09:16 PM

From banal to life changing the short conversation is condensed as haiku and sometimes remembered for a life time.
It could be in a grocery line or rarely at a stop light when the weather is fine.
Maybe you talked up or you talked down but the memory of the words shared still grows like a vine. I love those short conversations that leave both smiling as you walk, drive or fly away.
Still they can be a few terse words you never want to hear.
There is an honesty among strangers that can go beyond fear, ascend with joy or extend the wisdom of the ages.

I had one at a stop light the other day while npr was on. It was real wonky defense security council stuff but the common chord that harmonized the conversation before the light turned green was that
Trump was a SOB

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:20 AM

I suppose that like him or loathe him, Mr Trump has come through the primaries against all odds to take his place as Republican presidential candidate.

That position itself, in a democracy, deserves a degree of respect if we really imagine ourselves to be democrats.
These threads have turned into a series of puerile insults rather than providing any insight into the man or his opinions and flags up the crazy partisan nature of US politics which I continue to see as the game of "Good cop Bad cop"......a game that guarantees no societal change in the foreseeable future.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 08:46 AM

A subtle reminder this political season:

Don't feed the trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 09:11 AM

Respect for a position does not imply any kind of respect for the individual filling it. That's a rule in all circumstances.

But I agree t hat just making cracks about Trump is a bit of a waste of time.

More interesting is speculation about whether the Republicans could find a way of dumping him. I gather there's a provision for removing a candidate for "being of unsound mind" - but since that's what was what got him his position, rather than something that has happened to him subsequently (such as a stroke), it might be a bit hard to justify that. And it would suicide for the Republicans - though that seems likely in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 09:49 AM

These threads have turned into a series of puerile insults rather than providing any insight into the man or his opinions

You've got that exactly backwards, Ake.

These threads have provided and are providing facts about the man, his past history and business practices, his ludicrous opinions, his assinine statements, his general ignorance, his buffoonish antics and his insane policies, which YOU perversely choose to see as "puerile insults".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:59 AM

"rather than providing any insight into the man or his opinions"

To be fair Ake, we have plenty of insight into the man and his opinion. He's a lair, fantasist and narcissist; not puerile insults but conclusions based on the actions and comments of the man himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 12:51 PM

Respect is an odd word. Everybody deserves respect, including those who we rightly despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 03:52 PM

more oversimplified US politics:


The rich party is obviously outnumbered by the poor so they had to coddle a base that would be loyal to them. They decided to be the religion and patriot party to the masses while keeping a grip on their monopolies and corporate welfare policies.

The poor party is portrayed as godless lazy takers by the rich party

A rich party TV network was started and radio conservative spokesmen kept up a steady drumbeat against the poor party..

As the parties have become more strident, acerbic and out right hateful of one another since Gingrich introduced obstructionist politics, a breakaway Tea Party of no nothing reactionaries were funded by the Koch bros for Congressional seats.

Now out of control critics of all government has their hero in Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 05:18 PM

Who exactly is the "Poor Party" Don?

The Clinton campaign has three times as much money to spend as the Trump campaign and most of it comes from rich bankers and corporations.......they will expect their dividends.

As far as I can see there is no Rich and Poor Parties.....just Rich and Richer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:03 PM

That's right, Ake - Trump, the Great Socialist Hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:14 PM

Trump again

This thread is about Trump - his strengths, his weaknesses, his absurd statements. How difficult is that to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:52 AM

The only reason Mr Trump's name is even mentioned on these pages is that he is a candidate for President of the US.....it is impossible to have a discussion discussing or insulting Mr Trump outwith that context.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:09 AM

After the race-baiting and buffoonish, blatantly unpresidential behavior the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign is his hollow promise to bring back manufacturing jobs to rust belt states that had been made obsolete by automation and more efficient methods of production before NAFTA was even enacted. He's given his followers in those areas a false hope of regaining jobs that are never coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:44 AM

Normally, one would think that it would be able to carry on an intelligent discussion of the pros and cons of the candidates in an election. One might expect some on one side to make weird accusations against the other candidate, but such accusations can be safely ignored.

But this time, there is one candidate who really is as weird as people say he is. And since people point out his oddities and expect to believe, there arises the belief that the accusations against the other candidate must be valid, too.

Who in his right mind could believe the barrage of accusations flying in the current Presidential race? Well, I do believe most of what is said against Trump. So, I suppose, why shouldn't others believe what is said against Clinton?

It's a crazy contest this year.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:09 AM

Many here maintain that Mr Trump is unfit for office due to his lack of experience in politics or Foreign affairs, they think electors votes should go to Mrs Clinton, but this argument does not stack up.

Acme says "It was horrifying that Bush started a war in Iraq, and wretched to see how anyone who opposed it was immediately pounced upon as unpatriotic if they didn't get behind Baby Bush right after 9-11. Cheney lied. Many people were fooled.".....Well I was not fooled and neither were the 500,000 citizens of Glasgow who marched against Mr Bush's war.....or the 1000,000 who marched in London.

Why then was the other candidate for the coming election so easily fooled......it says little for her political acumen that she supported an obvious wrong, and repeated the mistake twice subsequently?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:50 AM

I think it's fair to maintain Trump is unfit for office due to his past actions. This man would be responsible for sending people into war, asking them to lay down their lives and their relatives to suffer this loss. He is way too reactionary, impetuous and petulant to be entrusted with this incredibly important responsibility.

Trump does't care for people, is cruel and vindictive towards them when they disagree with him and above all is a demagogue; I doubt he really cares what anyone thinks as long as they vote for him.

He is utterly bereft of any personal or professional integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:44 AM

Can't this all be over? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM

Trump's veiled threats against Clinton's life are disturbing, and the trouble is I wouldn't put it past an NRA nutter to put his suggestion in action. Maybe it would be for the best for Clinton and the Democratic party to pull out of the presidency, and give America a chance to learn something from giving Trump unfettered power.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

"Who in their right mind could believe all these accusations"

The extreme right minds.

It only takes one to obey Trump's threats.

We are still living in an H.G. Wells future of automated war by air, land, sea and space. A nation of science and government against shot gun hoards with more in common with the Taliban than they could bear to believe.

The irony that the Republican party nourished a base that will destroy them simply because they needed numbers to balance the unequal distribution between rich constituents against the poor, is not lost on anyone anymore.

I will leave this line of reasoning here and not prophesize further Mr. Wells.


Now for something completely different;

As shown on the Daily show, the next time you see Donald watch as though he is a struggling stand up comic. Keep your eyes on his hands
gesticulate the jokes. It is entertainment for sure but with th potential for dire consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:52 AM

the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign...

Almost. But the REALLY worst aspect of Trump's campaign are the millions of imbeciles that believe his utter bullshit.

why shouldn't others believe what is said against Clinton?

Perhaps because while the things said about Trump are in 95% of the time TRUE and documented and provable, while a similar percentage of the things said against Clinton are blatant lies & BS and are easily proved as such?

Of course, one needs to possess at least minimal intelligence to make that distinction. Therein lies the problem.

Why then was the other candidate for the coming election so easily fooled

Read And Learn, Ake

Read And Learn

[Trump] is entertainment for sure

More like black comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:55 AM

Once again, Ake, your almost total ignorance of the actual situation is showing. And you have it backwards, again, into the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:34 PM

Well I've read it Greg, but when does the learning kick in?
A typical whitewash job by a nonentity hack who doesn't seem to have any provenance whatsoever. A "human rights activist" and flag waver for the Democrats......If you are going to link, link to something worth reading, not sycophantic tosh.

The gist of it was that Mrs Clinton made a mistake, .....which she regretted....then went ahead and made the same mistake in Libya, then Syria!!!.......well who would have believed it? What a strange set of coincidences.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:10 PM

the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign is his hollow promise to bring back manufacturing jobs to rust belt states that had been made obsolete by automation and more efficient methods of production before NAFTA was even enacted. He's given his followers in those areas a false hope of regaining jobs that are never coming back.

The jobs, or equivalent jobs, could indeed come back. Most of them are still being done, but relocated to places where wage costs are dramatically lower. Reestablishing manufacturing industry would need some way of addressing that. High tariffs has been the historic way, but that backfires badly, hefty wage subsidies is another - but that means high taxes, while of course Trump promises tax cuts, especially for the rich of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM

As for Iraq, Donald Trump only indicated any doubts about the war until well after it had started and ground into the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM

A typical whitewash job by a nonentity hack......

Well, Ake, ya can't teach a pig to sin nor can you educate stupid. May you revel in your abysmal ignorance and seemingly inexhaustable store of misinformation from here on out, without (at least major) interference from me.

As for Iraq, Donald Trump only indicated any doubts about the war until well after it had started and ground into the sand.

Don't waste your time confusing Ake with the facts, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM

The jobs that Trump is promising to restore don't exist anymore in significant numbers. Manufacturing jobs are even on the decline in Asia, losing out to improving robotic production techniques. The days when you can walk out of high school and get a good paying job in a factory, coal mine or steel mill in America are over but Trump is still trying to sell his bill of goods to these folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:46 PM

"teach a pig to sin..."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:57 PM

Come on Greg, don't get huffy, I admire your straight talking and your sincerity....I just don't have much faith in the writer of that particular article.....no reflection on you or your views.

I do agree with Mr McGrath that jobs must come back, if not we are truly shafted.......but we need to change our motivations and start to live less wasteful lives. This applies not only to the US, but to all developed Western economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:23 PM

I just don't have much faith in the writer of that particular article.

OK, Ake, I'll break my promise in liew of your latest nonsense:

1. There were TWO articles "clickified", not one.

2. Of the authors you summarily dismissed as "hacks"- did you check their biographies, experience & reputation & other writings prior to your slander? Or are you just averse to "civil rights activists" out of hand?

3. Precisely what information and/or satements in those two articles - be specific - can you SUBSTANTIATE as incorrect?

Or is this just another example of your irrational entrenched hatred of Clinton not being susceptable to fact or argument?

As for Trump's qualifications in Foreign Policy, the dumb fuck has advocated the use of nuclear weapons among other idiocies - and you maintain that CLINTON is a threat to world peace?

You're lately sounding as monomaniacal, delusional & irrational as our "friend" Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:26 PM

"teach a pig to sin..."

Well, as they don't possess souls or free will, it would follow that they can't sin, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:38 PM

Please vote for one of these 3rd Party candidates to stop Trump!

Evan McMullen, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Morgan Freeman, Tom Hanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:46 PM

Mkebenn says: Can't this all be over? Mike

Sorry, Mike. Not until November. I can hardly wait.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:47 PM

Trump is still trying to sell his bill of goods to these folks.

Correction, Gilly- Trump HAS sold this bill of goods to these folks with remarkable success. Of course, he sold degrees at "Trump University" too...........

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:05 PM

Not quite. They may have been convinced so far, but they don't pay for the bill of goodstill it' s time to vote in November. And for the rest of their lives if he gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:08 PM

I don't see anything coming along that will disabuse them, Kevin- & I've talked to some of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:13 PM

Kevin give THIS a listen. Ma ygive you a whole new perspective on Trumpists.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:48 PM

The thing is, within a year of his being elected, nine out of ten people who voted for him would swear, and probably believe, they didn't.

And the same would apply if a Clinton presidency turned out to be a roaring success.

The really nasty lot are always there, damaged people looking to damage others. But they aren''t the main danger. The bigger danger are the ordinary folk standing around feeling embarassed, but going along with it. But in the quiet of a voting booth a lot of them are liable to get scared at the thought of President Trump actually winning.

But there aren't all that many Trumpists anyway. The biggest danger is people getting pissed off with the whole thing, and not voting. If all the people who despise Trump vote effectively against him, he hasn't a chance. And effectively means Clinton, even reluctantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:53 PM

There have always been shrill and irrational voices in the political discussion, but nowadays it seems that these voices have come to the forefront. Maybe it's caused by the proliferation of "social media," allowing and even promoting people saying things that once were only said in barrooms. There was a time when the "legitimate press" would never allow such things to be published, but then came FoxNews. And the logical result is Donald Trump.

Greg's link above (6:13 PM) is to the New York Times video of the hateful things reporters have seen and heard at Trump rallies. It is indeed horrifying to hear what is said by Trump's troops. But Greg, your usual response to all this is to use scatological references (potty talk), which makes our side sound just as irrational as the other side.

I would like to see this election defeat the Voices of Trump once and for all, and bring down the Tea Party nonsense along with it. We need to bring the political conversation back to a higher plane, so that people can discuss such things rationally.

But how do we accomplish this? By reciting "Trumpshit" over and over again?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:59 PM

Up above, Donuel says:

Please vote for one of these 3rd Party candidates to stop Trump!
Evan McMullen, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Morgan Freeman, Tom Hanks.

These are indeed some interesting candidates, Donuel, but how does dividing the anti-Trump vote serve to defeat Trump? Ralph Nader tried that in 2000, and we ended up with George W. Bush.

These third-party candidates are truly frightening to me. If they get a significant number of votes, Donald Trump wins.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:18 PM

Noam Chomsky's advice on that was, go for the one you like best if it'snot a swing state. Otherwise go for Clinton.

Throuble with that is, no one really knows whether any state Turn out to be a swing state this year.

First past the post is a lousy and anti-democratic system in any country. But you seem to be even more wedded to it in the States than back here in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:47 PM

McGrath says: First past the post is a lousy and anti-democratic system in any country. But you seem to be even more wedded to it in the States than back here in England.

Kevin, you've pointed out the fundamental flaw in the American system: whoever gets 51%, calls all the shots - and the 49% are mostly forgotten until the next election.

But there's another, even more insidious flaw in our system: each party nominates one candidate, and that candidate is often selected by a plurality vote. In this way, a guy like Trump who never had good support from more than 20% of the electorate, beats out others and suddenly becomes his party's candidate and automatically gets close to 50% of the votes.

There's close to a 50-50 split between Republicans and Democrats in the U.S., and it's well-nigh impossible to get most Republicans to vote for a Democrat (especially a lackluster candidate like Hillary). So, Trump has a good chance of being elected.

I'm scared.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:57 PM

I've always rejected the "Nader nag" - the meme that says if you vote your conscience you're helping to elect the enemy - but this time it's different.

It's different because during the next president's first term, three Supreme Court justices are likely to retire or die. A president is only in office for eight years at most, but SC justices are appointed (by the president) for life. This, and only this, is the reason why progressives MUST help elect the odious HC.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

But how do we accomplish this? By reciting "Trumpshit" over and over again?

Can't hurt. That's what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:00 PM

the odious HC

And she's "odious" because.....? Have you been listening to Ake?

And if she's "odious", what does that make Trump & his minions?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:22 PM

"whoever gets 51% calls the shots" No, it's worse than that- whoever gets the largest number of votes calls the shots, even if they get far less than 51 %. Except that's not even true - Gore got more than half a million votes than Bush, when he lost. (with nearly three million going to Nader.)

In the UK the present government got a ruling majority though 64% of those voting voted for other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:36 PM

Gore got more than half a million votes than Bush

That's the wonder of the Electoral College, Kevin - another rather strange colonial institution to thwart the will of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:45 PM

I can't understand how people on the left describe Hillary as "odious" and "the lesser of two evils."

In a real world, Hillary Clinton would be an perfect candidate for President. She's extraordinarily intelligent, and she believes that government is really supposed to serve the people - and she's proved that belief all through her life.

But the Republicans have worked to defame her since 1992, and now even liberals speak of her as "odious." Trump says she and President Obama are the founders of ISIS, and people actually believe that.

It's really distressing to see how the Republicans have worked so hard for so long to smear the reputation of a good woman - and to see that they have succeeded to the point where even liberals now call her "odious."

God help us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:34 PM

Too many people accept the lie and don't bother to do the fact checking. It's as simple as that. Richard Scaife set the lies in motion against the Clintons in the 1990s and others like the Koch brothers keep it going.

Now Trump is the beneficiary - billionaires supporting billionaires against the individuals who want to share the wealth and make the rich pay their fair share of taxes.

He makes it up as he goes - apparently confident that his followers won't do any fact checking.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 11:17 PM

Joe, "but how does dividing the anti-Trump vote"...?

It's called sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 12:11 AM

"but to most people here at the time Saddam was the real villain and had to be removed"

Utter utter fucking bullshit.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
We marched against the invasion and posted about it here.
We predicted hundreds of thousands of dead innocent Iraqis and were ridiculed by the local Bush apologist assholes.
We were fucking right. Fucking fucking right. So STFU Akenaton.

Look up some comments from that time by me, Bobert, Donuel, and many others. Oh, and STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:16 AM

The fact that I called HC odious is beside the point. Please re-read my post to get the important part.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 02:55 AM

"Now Trump is the beneficiary - billionaires supporting billionaires against the individuals who want to share the wealth and make the rich pay their fair share of taxes.

He makes it up as he goes - apparently confident that his followers won't do any fact checking."

You may be right Acme, but if that really is the case why does the Republican establishment hate him so much?   They must see the danger to their nasty little system.

Secondly, don't blame Mr Trump for the situation which has arisen, you all had the chance to work and vote for a real reformer in Mr Sanders who could have united what you see as the "left", but it seem that gender politics and liberal posturing are more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM

What's STFU?   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:49 AM

I don't think I understand you, michaelr. Is your calling Hillary "odious" another form of so-called "irony"? Well, what people think of as irony, often does not come across clearly on the Internet.

If you say something you think ironic and people don't understand it, don't blame them.

The fact of the matter, is that Hillary Clinton is an excellent candidate for President and deserves to be elected on her own merits, not merely because she's not as bad as Trump.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:30 AM

why does the Republican establishment hate him so much?

Because he's liable to mean a landslide victory for the Democrats, and the wreck of the Republican party that will last a generation or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:41 AM

It's good to see you post here again, TIA, and in fine form as well.
STFU, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:44 AM

I don't believe that Mr McGrath, they hated him even when he was ahead in the polls.....they are afraid of him, a populist who is unwilling to toe the party line......Anything that breaks the partisan two party system must be "progressive"?

Oh! I found out what STFU means and I don't think it has any place in an open discussion forum like Mudcat.

You have some audacity TIA, pissing off in a huff in September 13 then turning up here today screaming hysterically and telling long term member to shut up.

Now that is irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:48 AM

What's STFU?

Take your pick, aken:
STFU        Shut the Freak Up (polite form)
STFU        Star Trek Federation University
STFU        Scrawny Two-Faced Underling
STFU        Sir, That's Freakin Ugly (polite form)
STFU        Samurai Training Finished Unsuccessfully
STFU        Show Them Fury Unleashed
STFU        Save the Flying Unicorns
STFU        Southern Tenant Farmers' Union
STFU        Short-Term Follow-Up (pharmaceutical study)
STFU        Say, Thanks for Understanding

Copyright 1988-2014 AcronymFinder.com, All rights reserved.

I rather like the last one. I'd suggest you might try taking that as the intended meaning next time someone says it to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:57 AM

Victory for Trump would indeed risk destroying the Republican party, and replacing it with something even worse. Either way they lose. Trump wins and everybody loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:00 AM

It took me less than a minute to find this thread:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=55999

Completely refutes your revisionist "memory" Akenaton.

Want more?

If I did not have real world activities today, I would so enjoy burying you in a pile of similar links.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:02 AM

Yes Mr McGrath, but recent events have shown that Both Parties are corrupt

Thank you for your translation.....the last one suits you admirably.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM

TIA, I don't normally have much in common with Akenaton but on the link you provided there is not one post from him unless he used a different name then.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM

Trump loses and America wins. We come away with what will likely be a solid left of center SCOTUS for at least a generation or more, a very possible Democratic majority in the Senate, the GOP grip on the House severely weakened and a second major party that will have to shun the influence of it's extreme elements if it wants to survive as a major party. We could actually start functioning much better as a nation again.Donald gets to go on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC and continue to draw attention to himself, which is, I'm convinced, all he's really after and whine about how he was cheated.

Not quite sure how it will play out yet but this Trump candidacy could be a boon for the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

Still waiting on 13 Aug 16 - 05:23 PM, Ake. Nothing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM

The assumption being that whatever happens the Republicans retain control of the House, gillymor. As they did in 2012, while getting significantly fewer votes than the Democrats. You really need to find some way to sort that kind of thing out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:16 AM

Raggytash,
No post from Akenaton, but the sentiments universally expressed refute his revisionist and/or flawed recollection.
After so many of us protested so long and loud, and were proven correct, I will not let such BS go unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:18 AM

To be clear, this is the BS quote:

"but to most people here at the time Saddam was the real villain and had to be removed"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:30 AM

No question about that, McG. Citizens United has enabled wealthy conservative Republicans to go into blue states like North Carolina, and red states as well, and buy up the state legislatures and thereby control the makeup of voting districts (i.e. gerrymandering) and enact voter suppression legislation directed at minority voters, much of which has been recently declared unconstitutional by appellate courts.

CU will very likely be overturned by the Supreme Court if a President Clinton, who strongly advocates its repeal, is able to fill seats on the bench. If a President Trump (shudder) appoints the kind of conservative justices he claims he will, CU will stand. Getting that big, dark money out of elections is the first step to reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 09:41 AM

I'm just a young girl who knows little of war but: Seems to me that Trump has done just about all he can do to lose this election, and the real adversary here is complacency. If we don't vote, Trump could win, and God help us. If we do vote, he will do as much damage to the GOP as JBJ did to the Dems in '64 in the south. Seems like they owe us one. VOTE. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 10:12 AM

There was no irony in my statement. This is what I said (and it would be great if folks could address it, because it is important):

I've always rejected the "Nader nag" - the meme that says if you vote your conscience you're helping to elect the enemy - but this time it's different.

It's different because during the next president's first term, three Supreme Court justices are likely to retire or die. A president is only in office for eight years at most, but SC justices are appointed (by the president) for life. This, and only this, is the reason why progressives MUST help elect HC.

As for that adjective: Clinton is a career politician who has long since sold out her youthful idealism. She is a hawk and a Wall Street shill. It is odious to me to see her courting Bernie Sanders supporters by flip-flopping on long-held stances on things like the TPP and education costs. There is no doubt in my mind that, once elected, she will flop right back. Yes, she is qualified, intelligent and hard-working, but that's not enough to earn my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 10:14 AM

Quite right, Mike, it's way to early to do victory laps.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:18 AM

courting Bernie Sanders supporters by flip-flopping on long-held stances

Uh- that's what's called "moving the platform to the left" Mike. One of the things Bernie entered the race to do.

the "Nader nag" - the meme that says if you vote your conscience you're helping to elect the enemy {emphasis mine]

Which is exactly what happened, Mike.

NB: realpolitik noun

A system of politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:26 AM

It isn't idealism that's youthful, as demonstrated by the likes of Noam Chomsky, Jeremy Corbyn, Pete Seeger, Bernie Sanders and a lot more. It's naivete, maybe. People get more pragmatic. That can work different ways.

Sometimes getting older can mean getting more impatient rather than settling down and accepting that defeat is inevitable.

Give Hillary a strong mandate, and an effective Sandersite contingent breathing down her neck, and who knows how the flip-flops might turn out? Franklin Roosevelt had never been all that "progressive" till he found himself in a situation where radical action became realistic politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:30 AM

Sorry Greg, Didn't realise that you wanted a response.
I only read the first link and that was so full of bullshit that I couldn't be arsed reading the other I did look up the author of the first and he was attached in some way to the Obama propaganda squad, obviously a hack looking for a job in the Clinton administration.
Clintons record in office is all that is required , no "hatred" or "misogyny" involved.

Iraq, Libya and Syria were not just small mishaps...they were the biggest Foreign Policy disasters ever and Mrs Clinton has been heavily involved in ALL of them, even Mr Bush's war as her support helped sway American Democrats including many on this forum.

Mr trump's words on nuclear weapons were in fact a means of opening the argument as to whether these weapons will ever be used.....we vshould ALL be working towards the banning of these weapons in every country.......interesting article
From "Politico"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:40 AM

Donuel, not sure why the question arose, but your assertion that 10% of US presidents have either been assassinated or "narrowly escaped" assassination--I dont know how one statistically defines the latter--is exceedingly conservative. Almost 10% of US presidents have been assassinated, period--4 of 43 men who have held the office.

Wikipedia, fwiw, identifies "over 20" known assassination attempts or serious plots. This includes five against Obama, four against Clinton, the shooting of Reagan of course, and the hapless Ford's being shot at twice in a single month. Every president since Hoover is listed as the object of at least one assassination plot except for LBJ--personal (un)popularity doesnt seem to be a factor, oddly enough.

Then of course the shooting of presidential candidates Robert Kennedy and George Wallace--I apologize for lumping them together--are part of contemporary electoral history as well.

It is beyond reprehensible for anyone with influence to kinda, sorta, kid around that maybe someone oughtta shoot their political opponent, let alone suggest it without qualifiers then deny meaning what they said.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 12:37 PM

**Sorry Greg, Didn't realise that you wanted a response.

I would think, Ake, that someone reading my post in question, consisting of a series of specific interrogatories, might surmise that I wanted responses - which, if you re-read the post in question, you will see (or perhaps not) that you have still not supplied them.

**that was so full of bullshit that I couldn't be arsed reading the other

Apparently bullshit[sic] that you can't identify and or refute.

**attached in some way to the Obama propaganda squad

Attached in WHAT way?

**obviously a hack looking for a job in the Clinton administration

Obvious on the basis of what evidence? or just on the basis of your personal anti-Clinton monomania?.

**even Mr Bush's war as her support helped sway American Democrats including many on this forum.

vide TIA: 14 Aug 16 - 08:00 AM , 14 Aug 16 - 09:16 AM, and especially 14 Aug 16 - 12:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

I must believe that Trump (Trump/Pence=Tuppence)will not win- he won't IF we vote- but that doesn't mean the trouble is over. I hesitate to repeat the equation but someone said "Trump just turned on the light, the cockroaches were already there". My question is: What will the Trump supporters do when Trump loses? Do they go quietly back into the woodwork?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:52 PM

"Trump just turned on the light, the cockroaches were already there."

Absolutely BRILLIANT!!

What will the Trump supporters do when Trump loses? Do they go quietly back into the woodwork?

Absolutely NOT!

As I've said before, the problem isn't Trump, its his army of half-wit supporters. Joe Offer seems to think that a Clinton victory will reform the Repugnicant Party, destroy the Tea Party loonies, & make everything okey-dokey once again. This is a delusion, and a dangerous one.

You ain't seen nothin' yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 02:30 PM

I imagine there'll be some kind of outbreak of gun-nut terrorism. What's new? This is America, with well over 30,000 gun deaths a year.

I doubt if it'll amount to a Know Nothing version of Isis, but who can tell?

Best way to limit is to make sure Trump isn't just beaten but buried in the landslide. A narrow victory 2000 style would be asking for trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 02:42 PM

Wonderful, Ebbie. Yes the roaches were here, but perhaps we can hide them again, like spots on a favorite tie. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 09:29 AM

"Crooked Hillary"???

Yeah, right.....

Secret Ledger in Ukraine Lists Cash for Donald Trump's Campaign Chief

By ANDREW E. KRAMER, MIKE McINTIRE and BARRY MEIERAUG. 14, 2016


Records show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Paul Manafort, the campaign manager for Donald J. Trump, from a pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012.

Investigators assert that the disbursements were part of a corrupt network they say was used to loot Ukrainian assets and influence elections.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM

Are you shocked? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

Shocked? I'm not even surprised. 'Course it'll ruin Ake's day.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 11:19 AM

I imagine Trump's spin doctors will say this is a fake cooked up by the Russians to undermine Trump's campaign.

Must be a rough job being a Trump spin-doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 03:43 PM

Up above, TIA challenged Ake with a link to a 2003 thread titled BS: US & British war plans blocked. People wondered about the relevance of the link, since no posts from Akenaton appeared in the thread. Ake has stated many times that Mudcatters supported the invasion of Iraq and are now whistling a different tune.

The 2003 thread proves that a large number of Mudcatters opposed the invasion of Iraq at the time it was happening - not as an afterthought like Mr. Trump. At the time and still today, I couldn't understand why so many Democratic members of Congress supported Bush's dirty little war.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 04:51 PM

Well Joe, how many active members did we have in those days?
There are a large number of posts in that thread, but only a handful of committed posters, some totally opposed, some who have doubts, and some who are in favour....the majority are sitting on the fence.
I certainly don't think that you can make a valid claim that "most of the membership" were opposed......"most of the membership" couldn't be bothered to join the discussion.

I remember being involved in later threads where many justified the war by claiming that Saddam was a "bad man"

The consequences of the war and the attack on Libya, which we see today(the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism), were recognised by only a very few. In Fact very few here will even now condemn the Obama Clinton govt for its disgraceful and idiotic actions in Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 04:57 PM

Give it up, Ake - your memory, such as it is, is faulty - and its hardly the only thing of yours that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:09 PM

Ake, there was serious opposition to the invasion of Iraq on the part of most folkies I know. Say what you want, but them's the facts. I'm sure a poll here in 2003 would show overwhelmingly strong opposition to the Bush invasion of Iraq. And at the time, we had many more active Mudcatters than we have now.

The Libya thing was different. It was tied to the "Arab Spring," and many of us had the hope that multiple Arab nations would end years of tyranny - and Libya was viewed as the worst of those tyrannies. Turns out our hopes were misguided.

I don't know what Europeans thought at the time of the Arab Spring, but we here in the U.S. believed that U.S. military intervention was minimal and was intended to support freedom-seeking rebels who would otherwise be murdered by Ghaddafi.

Now we're stuck in a worse conundrum in Syria, where at lest three sides are fighting. Many voices are calling for the U.S. to intervene and stop the slaughter, but which side should we join? So, we're hesitant in Syria and are condemned for it; and we intervened in Libya and are condemned for that, too.

There are no easy answers, except for those who see in hindsight.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:28 PM

Doubling down on an easily refuted falsehood. Kind of reminds me of someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 06:42 PM

Akenaton, you commit every logical fallacy you can muster in your parody of debate. Someone offers you evidence of members' opposition and you dismiss it as insufficient and thrash around in your unsupported memories to make your case. You only want to keep bashing Hillary, undeterred by facts. I see you trying to make it sound like you're actually interested in the thread, when each time you simply want to get in one more dig.

This thread is about Trump. And people get tired of continually pointing that out to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 06:53 PM

There has been essentially no change in the destructiveness of US foreign policy towards most people in the Middle East for my whole lifetime. It isn't relevant to Trump - the American machine will carry on grinding up whole nations and civilizations by proxy and direct warfare no matter who its figurehead is.

What I don't quite get about Trump: in what way is he stupider or less marketable than Reagan was? From this far away, there doesn't seem to be a flea fart's difference between them, but Reagan got away with it and it looks like Trump won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:02 PM

Life's too short to analyse the posts in those Iraq threads. (They are still there if anyone has the time and endurance), but a glance through a couple seem to confirm my memory that there were pretty few voices supporting the war. And to confirm my memory that those that were tended to be from people who would be very unlikely to call themselves liberals or be so described by others.

No doubt there were exceptions, be aken's generalisation on this point just doesn't hold water.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:04 PM

What I don't quite get about Trump: in what way is he stupider or less marketable than Reagan was? From this far away, there doesn't seem to be a flea fart's difference between them

Reagan was suffering from dementia all thru his presidency - his "cold, dead brain" & all that, so he has a bit of an excuse. Not so his handlers.

Trump? He's just an ignorant imbecile buffoon.

That's the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 09:24 PM

Christian Terrorism?

Two days after an imam and his assistant were gunned down after afternoon prayers in Queens, city officials sought to reassure members of the Muslim community in New York on Monday, saying that a "strong person of interest" was in police custody.

"I don't feel safe anymore," Mr. Hossain said. "All of this hatred being propagated, especially by Donald Trump, it puts us at risk. People sometimes pass me on the street and call me Bin Laden. I just try to keep my head down and keep walking."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/16/nyregion/fatal-shootings-queens-mosque.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 09:42 PM

I provided a link to a thread in which most Catters, if not all, opposed the invasion of Iraq.   Akenaton, it is now incumbent upon you to provide a link to a thread wherein any Catters justify the invasion of Iraq by saying that "Saddam was a bad man".   I would especially like to see a link to a thread where someone says that Hillary convinced them that the invasion of Iraq was a good idea.
Provide the link, or shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:30 AM

Mr McGrath, most of the liberals here supported the removal of Saddam in the cause of "freedom and democracy".....how was that to be accomplished without the policy of military intervention?
The two issues are indivisible.

President Bush's biggest negative where most of the Mudcat membership were concerned was that he was a Republican, a fiscal conservative.

As we learned in the UK a "liberal" govt are just as likely to go to war in what they see as their own interests as a conservative one.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:22 AM

I'd question whether that is actually true, aken. It just doesn't match with my memory, nor with the cursory look at a couple old threads I've made.

I'm pretty sure that the main arguments I had at that time with people who favoured the invasion (and there were a good few) were with people who would not see themselves, or be seen by others, as "liberal". In real life too - about the only "liberal" I can remember talking to who favoured the war was our then Labour MP.

I'm sure there were plenty of people indicating they didn't like Saddam, but that's not the same thing. And of course, in both the UK and the US the supposedly "liberal" opposition was mostly in favour of the war. (Not the Liberal Party itself, which makes for confusing terminology.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:23 AM

The Guardian: a history of Trumpism

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:42 AM

President Bush's biggest negative where most of the Mudcat membership were concerned was that he was a Republican, a fiscal conservative.

I rest my case. That remark illustrates Ake's difficulty understanding American politics - he ignores the facts. That summary is made of whole cloth - go look at Amos' long running thread about Bush if you want to see all of the various permutations of that guy's puppet presidency, with the nasty Dick Cheney moving his mouth and talking.

But we were speaking of Trump. Whose brain and mouth are connected without a filter, and he pays no attention to any of his advisers. But let's just let him talk - he's his own worst enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

Mr McGrath, most of the liberals here supported the removal of Saddam in the cause of "freedom and democracy

Yet another lie, Ake. Please review the various posts by Tia, which completely disprove your nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:44 AM

I believe after Trump gets his butt handed to him in November he will found TTV (Trump T.V.) to propagate his mean spirited bull shit as a way to keep his name front and center in the "crooked media". I foresee a cross between Limbaugh, Hannity and Jerry Springer. Think of the guest he could have!!! It's a logical followup to the "Apprentice". Maybe this is wishful thinking, what ever, I most certainly won't be viewing. I'll get the highlights on "Morning Joe", along with Cobert, Fallon, Marh, etc. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM

Breaking News - Another Moron For Trump!

NEW YORK (Associated Press) — 14 August 2016

Rudolph Giuliani [ mayor of New York City on 11 Sept. 2001], promoting Donald Trump's national security plan, said Monday that in the "eight years before (President Barack) Obama came along, we didn't have any successful radical Islamic terrorist attack in the United States."

"Under those eight years, before Obama came along, we didn't have any successful radical Islamic terrorist attack in the United States. They all started when Clinton and Obama got into office," Giuliani said ahead of Trump's speech on national security.


(he sounds rather like Ake.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM

Ironic that Guiliani should forget 9/11 when he invoked it ad nauseum while trying to launch a national political career that never went anywhere.
Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:35 PM

Two interesting articles on HC:

Published in the current Rolling Stone, whose publisher endorsed Hillary over Bernie some time ago, thereby removing any lingering vestiges of the magazine's progressive past, Sean Wilentz's puff piece of a love-fest made me wonder if he's angling for a blowjob (or any kind of job) from Hillary.

Today's New York Times column by Maureen Dowd is by contrast a more clear-eyed reminder of who the Clintons really are - Washington insiders and Wall Street darlings who offer clear proof that there isn't much of a difference between the two parties where ordinary working Americans are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:20 PM

clear proof that there isn't much of a difference between the two parties

Please, please, not THAT old lie again! You and Ake should team up in a vaudeville act; you both have that same bug up your a**.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:21 PM

There may only be a few inches difference between parties, but those inches can mean the difference between life and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:32 PM

Oh, and Michael:

In 2014, an analysis of 21 years of Maureeen Dowd's Columns about Hillary Clinton entitled 'The Numbers Behind Maureen Dowd's 21-Year Long Campaign Against Hillary Clinton', found that of the 195 columns by Dowd since November 1993 containing significant mentions of Clinton, 72 percent (141 columns) were negative towards Clinton. [43] Numerous other commentators have criticized Dowd for having an obsession with Bill and especially Hillary Clinton.[44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51]

-----
43.http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/06/18/the-numbers-behind-maureen-dowds-21-year-long-c/199752
44.http://wonkette.com/597979/maureen-dowd-is-high-again
45.http://crooksandliars.com/2016/02/when-maureen-dowd-lost-hillary-clinton
46.http://www.nationalmemo.com/maureen-dowds-decades-long-campaign-against-hillary-clinton-gets-even-nastier/
47.http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/4/22/1203943/-Maureen-Dowd-From-respected-columnist-to-Mean-Girl
48.http://www.salon.com/2015/04/24/maureen_dowd_vs_hillary_clinton_mras_and_the_honey_badger_brigade_the_dazzling_glare_of_sexism_and_the_alluring_gender_blind%E2%80%9D_lie/
49.http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/07/10/new-york-times-maureen-dowd-writes-yet-another-anti-clinton-column/211474
50.https://bluenationreview.com/maureen-dowd-calls-hillary-crazy/
51.http://www.anitafinlay.com/is-maureen-dowd-necessary-defanging-a-hillary-basher-via-a-chapter-from-dirty-words-on-clean-skin/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:59 PM

Yeah, well, Maureen's had Hillary's number for longer than most. That doesn't mean she's wrong, does it? Similarly, just because you despise Ake for being a homophobe or whatever else, that doesn't mean he's wrong about everything, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:01 PM

Greg,
Christian Terrorism?

Probably not Greg.
CNN 2 hours ago,
"There is no indication that it was a hate crime, police said."

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/15/us/new-york-imam-shooting/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:12 PM

That doesn't mean she's wrong, does it?

By the same token, Don't mean Dowd's right, either, particularly since she's prejudiced against HC and has been since day one. Read that footnoted info and get back to me.

And I don't "despise" Ake- he's simply wrong a good portion of the time and especially with the BS he continually spouts about Trump & Clinton.

Now Trump I DO despise - he's the most dispicable candidate for president of the last 125 years, and I remember George Wallace. Trumps followers remind me of Tailgunner Joe's acolytes.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:16 PM

Ah, Professor, you should have read the REST of the CNN article, which Clearly states:

"No motive in the killings has been determined, Boyce said."

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM

"No motive in the killings has been determined, Boyce said." but they do not suspect a hate crime.

Perhaps they will be proved wrong, but you were jumping to conclusions in suggesting "Christian terrorism."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 05:06 AM

Trump loses and America wins. We come away with what will likely be a solid left of center SCOTUS for at least a generation or more, a very possible Democratic majority in the Senate, the GOP grip on the House severely weakened and a second major party that will have to shun the influence of it's extreme elements if it wants to survive as a major party.

It would make sense for the GOP to organize Trump's assassination (preferably by a patsy from one of the groups he's demonized) and get Pence elected on the sympathy vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:25 AM

"There is no indication that it was a hate crime, police said."

But I'll be very surprised if it doesn't turn out to be. Which doesn't in itself necessarily imply "Christian terrorism".   

I always feel there's something weird about the term "hate crime" in relation to murders, which seems to imply that hate isn't a feature of most murders. If anything a murder of a stranger, where there's nothing personal about it is less about hate than a murder of someone close to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:54 AM

As noted by a National Public Radio commentator this morning, Trump is now throwing "red meat" to his voter base by removing his top adviser and adding two new ones.

Trump shakes up campaign, demotes top adviser. Of particular note is Steven Bannon, with the Breitbart organization, eponymously named after the nasty political operative whose company (via James O'Keefe) set up sting operations to bring down ACORN. His job is to be strident, ignore what the president's job actually is, and whip up the lowest-common-denominator of the GOP base with whatever fabrications will work. Because that is what Breitbart does.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM

but they do not suspect a hate crime.

Hey, Professor:

"First-Degree Murder Charge Added in Killing of Queens Imam and Aide

By RICK ROJAS, NOAH REMNICK and EMILY PALMER, NY TIMES AUG. 16, 2016

Although investigators said they had not determined the motive for the attack, Peter McCormack, an assistant district attorney, described it as "a most horrendous and despicable act." Officials said prosecuting the case as a hate crime remained possible."

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:17 AM

Which doesn't in itself necessarily imply "Christian terrorism".

Agree 100% Kevin.

However, it IS a curious thing that when a person who happens to be of the Muslim faith murders someone, its "Islamic Terrorism!!" but when a person of the Christian faith does likewise its always "some nutter".

No?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:07 PM

Good point,Greg F. If you stir up enough hate, someone will die, most likely an innocent. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:09 PM

Not always. Killings associated with the Troubles were not generally put down to "nutters". Nor was Tim McVeigh seen as a nutter rather than a fanatic. It depends very much on the context.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:13 PM

A fine point, McGrath: I understand that not all nutters are fanatics, but in what way is a fanatic not a nutter?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:37 PM

Motivation. A fanatic will be motivated by a cause which is also supported by others who are not fanatics, for example nationalism or politics. What makes them fanatics is that they are more extreme in their action. The motives of a "nutter" are much more personal - and of course their actions might not even be extreme, just out of the ordinary.

It's perfectly possible to be both at the same time. There have been several episodes recently where those involved, while having sort of rational motivation, have had significent mental problems.

It's not a clear distinction with some "causes" that most people would see as pretty crazy, such as racism and some kinds of religious fundamentalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 01:17 PM

Michael Moore spills beans

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 02:52 PM

Suggestion for Trump Campaign Song

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:36 AM

Akenaton continues to assert;

..."Mr McGrath, most of the liberals here supported the removal of Saddam in the cause of "freedom and democracy"."...

Originally, we could not fairly judge whether this was innocent lapse of memory or dishonesty. With the record presented, and not refuted, we can now be sure that it is willful dishonesty.

Please consider this in responding to any further contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:56 AM

Not necessarily. Aken's memory on this is different from mine, and that of a lot of other people. I think mine is more accurate, but who knows? There were a great number of posts about this at the time, and I can't imagine any sensible person bothering to check them all. I suppose if you were engaged in some kind of research about that kind of stuff doing that might be part of it.

Though I remain pretty sure my memory on this is more accurate, I am also aware that there may be people around who are honestly but inaccurately sure they opposed the war. Rather the same way pollsters find far fewer people admit to having voted for unpopular governments than actually did.

And there are also those who lie about it, like Donald Trump, but that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

Poppycock, McGrath, anyone who wants to examine the discussions can type Iraq into the filter above, select All and scroll down the page and read for themselves. The only people defending the invasion were 3 or 4 and easily identified conservative members. Ake has altered the facts to suit his narrative. He's indulging in more and more trollery and is often called out for it by the moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 05:42 PM

Yes, of course you can write Iraq in the filter, and set it for "All". And up comes about 250 threads. I've no intentiin of checking through them. (I counted them, but it was tricky keeping count. It might have been a few more than 250.)

As I said, I'm sure enough of my memory here, but for all I know there may be some threads where Clinton type "liberals" might have been in evidence, defending the war, along with aken attacking it. Or perhaps it's his memory letting him down, which I think is more likely.

There were definitely left-of-centre people promoting the war out in the big world, if not too much on the Cat. For example in Parliament and Congress, and in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 02:30 AM

As I remarked to Joe, there was only a tiny minority of the membership actually involved in the threads, it tended to be the same small group with an interest in politics.....most could not be bothered, and even amongst the small group there were many who hated war as we all do, but reckoned Saddam had to be removed regardless of the consequences......which we, all knew.

Tia you really do amaze me, leaving the forum for three years then diving straight back in to attack people.
Or perhaps you were one of the "trolling" guests who have been recently deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 04:28 AM

"...reckoned Saddam had to be removed regardless of the consequences....."

Please do find anyone who voiced this.

I recall (and linked to) many people who opposed the invasion precisely *because* of the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM

Well it seems we are in agreement Tia....so what's all the fuss about?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM

The "tiny minority of the membership" that gets involved in these thread is the group of people that can stomach (or take part in) the co-dependent any-excuse-for-a-disagreement, frequently off-topic hate-fest that happens once certain individuals start humping the thread.

So what's up with Trump today, or are we still just talking about other posters here, and who thought GWB and the US military should invade Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:50 AM

"Crooked Hillary" ?? Yeah right, Trump.

Trump adviser orchestrated covert campaign : Manafort worked for Ukraine ruling party.
Jeff Horwitz and Chad Day, Associated Press
Thursday, August 18, 2016

A firm run by Donald Trump's campaign chairman directly orchestrated a covert Washington lobbying operation on behalf of Ukraine's ruling political party, attempting to sway American public opinion in favor of the country's pro-Russian government, emails obtained by The Associated Press show.

Paul Manafort and his deputy, Rick Gates, never disclosed their work as foreign agents as required under federal law.

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Trump-adviser-orchestrated-covert-campaign-9172118.php

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 11:39 AM

Trump is going to exit this race before the election, I suspect there is money on that in Las Vegas. And he'll keep his fund-raising war chest as a payoff for all of his work - for his personal use or organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:13 PM

Oh come on Jeri, Tia's not that bad.....OK he/she has been a deserter but the disagreement seems to have been dealt with and I don't bear grudges......and stop "trolling" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:31 PM

Just for the record this is what all the fuss was about:

Ake- "Mr McGrath, most of the liberals here supported the removal of Saddam in the cause of "freedom and democracy"

A ridiculous assertion with absolutely no substantiation, just more trollery. That's the last I'll write of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:33 PM

the disagreement seems to have been dealt with

In a pig's ear, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:42 PM

I like being the spoiler and have been proved right many times but Donald is in it to win it.

Mannifort is gone. Brietbart.com under Bannon satisfies the populist conspiracy instincts in Trump and Kelly Ann can brook any stream of consciousness for all potential Trump supporters who expect and respect a modicum of maturity.

Trump may be asked by Maureen Dowd of the NYT "Will the approbation of the American people rectify your record by November?"

Trump responded "I have never been on Probation in my life and my record can never be wrecked! "

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:48 PM

And Another Crook Bites The Dust:

New York Times, 19 Aug 2016

Paul Manafort, installed to run Donald J. Trump's operation after the firing of his original campaign manager, handed in his resignation on Friday, signifying the latest tumult to engulf the candidate, whose standing in the polls has steadily dropped since the Republican Party's convention in July.


Note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 01:02 PM

An interesting anti-Trump demonstration: The Emperor's New Clothes (Washington Post)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 01:16 PM

I think it was actually "The Emperor Has No Balls"
And the tweet from the NYC Parks Department: "NYC Parks stands firmly against any unpermitted erection in city parks, no matter how small."

Maybe it's just me, but the face on the statues look too masculine and not pouty enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM

They even got Donald's recent "pivot" right, from orange hair to yellow.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 02:08 PM

Woody's take on the Trump family:

    I suppose
    Old Man Trump knows
    Just how much
    Racial Hate
    he stirred up
    In the bloodpot of human hearts
    When he drawed
    That color line
    Here at his
    Eighteen hundred family project ....


Beach Haven ain't my home!
    I just cain't pay this rent!
    My money's down the drain!
    And my soul is badly bent!
    Beach Haven looks like heaven
    Where no black ones come to roam!
    No, no, no! Old Man Trump!
    Old Beach Haven ain't my home!


http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/01/25/woody-guthrie-sang-of-his-contempt-for-his-landlord-donald-trumps-father/

https://theconversation.com/woody-guthrie-old-man-trump-and-a-real-estate-empires-racist-foundations-53026

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:35 PM

Aug. 19 2016 Rachel Maddow

Eugenics and American master race founders are at the heart of the extreme right wing for Trump. In fact the first Trump for President TV ad cites the Center for Immigrant Studies. It appears at the bottom of the screen. Johm Tantum leads this eugenic group among special sperm banks and crazier eugenic racist programs.

Lest you think I am kidding or exaggerating I refer you to the source. It should be available via Maddow's nbc website WITHIN DAYS.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 09:54 AM

"Honest Don" Trump, "financial genius":

On the campaign trail, Donald J. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, has sold himself as a businessman who has made billions of dollars and is beholden to no one.

An investigation by The New York Times into the financial maze of Mr. Trump's real estate holdings in the United States reveals that companies he owns have at least $650 million in debt — twice the amount than can be gleaned from public filings he has made as part of his bid for the White House. The Times's inquiry also found that Mr. Trump's fortunes depend deeply on a wide array of financial backers, including one he has cited in attacks during his campaign.

For example, an office building on Avenue of the Americas in Manhattan, of which Mr. Trump is part owner, carries a $950 million loan. Among the lenders: the Bank of China, one of the largest banks in a country that Mr. Trump has railed against as an economic foe of the United States, and Goldman Sachs, a financial institution he has said controls Hillary Clinton, the Democratic nominee.

Beyond finding that companies owned by Mr. Trump had debts of at least $650 million, The Times discovered that a substantial portion of his wealth is tied up in three passive partnerships that owe an additional $2 billion to a string of lenders.

Trump's opaque portfolio of business ties make him potentially vulnerable to the demands of banks, and to business people in the United States and abroad, said Professor Painter, rthe chief White House ethics lawyer under President George W. Bush


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/donald-trump-debt.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM

The White House ethics lawyer under GWB?

Streuth.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 16 - 10:17 AM

Yeah, Stu - if Painter sez that Trump is a piece of crap, guess you'd better believe him!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 06:02 PM

The puzzling thing to outsiders is that most time politicians manage to present themselves in a superficially appealing way. You might not like them yourselves, but with a bit of imagination you can see how other people might. Not necessarily personally likable sometimes, but impressive.

But Trump, you'd run screaming down the street if you met him. He's so obviously a wrong 'un. The old question people ask of politicians is "would you buy a used car off this man?" Forget the politics - would any sane person buy a used car from Donald Trump?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 06:28 PM

would any sane person

Therein lies the problem. Insanity would be necessary in order to believe 99% of what Trump spews. Yet millions do.........

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 08:14 AM

Millions of white people, Greg. Thank God we're no longer a majority. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM

What a great incentive for non-whites to vote for Trump:

"What Have You Got to Lose"

Inspirational!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

I believe they are intelligent enough to know. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 06:11 PM

I believe they are intelligent enough to know.

Err.... but who then are "they"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 02:46 AM

Interesting program on today's Fresh Air program on National Public Radio today:

Trump Off Camera: The Man Behind The 'In-Your-Face Provocateur'

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 08:45 AM

Greg. Everybody else, regardless of race or greed who can see that Trump is a caricature of a candidate, not a real person. He belongs in the barnyard of "Animal Farm" Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 09:51 AM

It IS an interesting program, Joe. Looks like Trump was an asshole from about age 6 (and possibly earlier) and spent the rest of his life perfecting that role.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 02:18 PM

Greg are you calling Rudolph Giuliani insane?

According to Rudy, Hillary is sick. She is in stage 4 of Multiple Sclerosis evidenced by her anti double vision glasses and frequent collapses. Hillary is holding on by a thread with young blood transfusions and fetal pineal gland infusions (66 fetuses per dose). Cabbalistic and ancient Chinese cures proved fruitless. According to the Protocols of Zion, when she passes the PRESIENCY WOULD NOT PASS TO Tim Kane but to Satan.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 02:40 PM

Greg are you calling Rudolph Giuliani insane?

Absolutely.

And he's also an obnoxious asshole - not in Trump's class, of course, but close.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM

Multiple Sclerosis? Spreading a suggestion like that might make people think of her as a real life President Bartlett from West Wing, who was revealed as having that - and that's rather a positive image for a hostile prropaganda machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:05 PM

"most the time politicians manage to present themselves in a superficially appealing way. "

This is what drives much of political cartooning. Trump defies this model, he really is deeply unappealing on the surface all the way to the bone.

Doonesbury had the strange inside joke of depicting all Bush family members as invisible. My inside joke is that my IQ is 50 or below, ergo invisible. Never mind the reason.

Trump can be depicted as the invisible dog doo stink on the bottom of your shoe. Godlike, Trump is everywhere and follows every step you take.



Greg good songs about a bad man.
Can you perform them?


PS:
the new white US Nazi party today is going by the name of Alt Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:22 PM

I forgot about West Wing but the hypnosis propagandists working for Trump obviously did not. It adds subliminal believability. This smacks of real black hat think tank crap.

If you missed my early posts about there being a time when the CIA wanted to cultivate/employ my 'expertise' regarding propaganda and nefarious hypnotic deeds, they were all true.

The cats out of the bag in more than one way.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 04:25 PM

But I'd rather doubt the people who will vote for Trump wouldn't have watched the West Wing. A bit left wing for a lot of Democrats I have been led to believe. Closer to Bernie than Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 05:17 PM

Greg good songs about a bad man. Can you perform them?

Once upon a time, but no longer. Sliced a tendon in my left hand 10 years back & guitar & dulcimer have been on the shelf ever since. Life is a succession of compromises.

But thanks for asking!!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 10:25 PM

I sliced the left index and middle finger tendon and nerve from canoeing into a lake whirlpool. When first severed it made a sound in my brain. It went Boing! After micro surgery it was strengthened but not the same.


Re: Trump - After the great F*ck up, comes the great softening.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 06:31 AM

"After the great F*ck up, comes the great softening"

You can sprinkle powdered sugar on a turd but that don't make it a jelly doughnut.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM

I've seen flip-flops during a presidential campaign but never one as extreme as Trump"s on his hard-line immigration policy, which was the centerpiece of his primary campaign.
This from an article in Commentary yesterday:

'Donald Trump is shifting to an illegal immigration policy that is a complete echo of the proposals by Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio he condemned as "amnesty" during the primaries—which by definition means he won't be forcibly deporting 11 million people if he becomes president. Those forcible deportations were one of the few clear policy positions he's taken, and he was screaming about them at his rallies as late as last week.

This gobsmacking flip-flop means two things. First, Trump's brazen contempt for his own supporters is so thoroughgoing he thinks he can say anything without risking their votes. (It will be up to them to prove him wrong by reacting with anger. If they don't, his contempt is deserved.) Second, he has finally come to understand he is heading for a defeat so unimaginably humiliating he's willing to do just about anything to forestall it.

But let's be clear about what this is not. This is not a play for Hispanic votes, any more than his talk on the campaign trail about the lives of African Americans being so terrible is a play for black votes. This is about generating votes among whites—and likely white women—by talking more nicely.

Call it "compassionate alt-conservatism."'


Article here

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 08:51 AM

Surreal indeed. You couldn't make this shit up.

"Hillary Clinton is a bigot who sees people of color only as votes, not as human beings worthy of a better future," the GOP presidential nominee declared at a rally here [Mississippi] Wednesday night. "She's going to do nothing for African-Americans. She's going to do nothing for the Hispanics. She's only going to take care of herself, her husband, her consultants, her donors. These are the people she cares about."

Trump's accusation, delivered before a overwhelmingly white audience in a heavily Republican state, was a variation of a line he's been using over the last week.

The sharp jab punctuated an unusual and somewhat surreal rally here in the Deep South, where the celebrity businessman was joined onstage by Nigel Farage, the outgoing leader of the United Kingdom's Independence Party. Speaking to audience members who appeared somewhat baffled at his presence, Farage spoke of how he and allies overcame opposition from the political establishment and even a set of foreign leaders that included U.S. President Obama.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-clinton-bigot-rally-nigel-000000682.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 10:50 AM

And the hits just keep coming! Bizarre just doesn't cover it...

Donald Trump's new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live.

Bannon is executive chairman of the rightwing website Breitbart News, which has for years aggressively claimed that voter fraud is rife among minorities and in Democratic-leaning areas. The allegation has been repeated forcefully on the campaign trail by Trump, who has predicted the election will be "rigged" and warned supporters that victory could be fraudulently "taken away from us".


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 04:35 PM

It is Alt Right with little or nothing to do with conservatism.

After the current immigrant hate campaign runs its course the old stand by hate quake will rattle and bury blacks, Jews, Gay and Catholics in that general order...If Trump wins.

Hearing the hired political female blonde squad for Trump rail against the truth is very Bush like.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM

And yet ANOTHER crook for Trump!!

Donald J. Trump's campaign has hired Bill Stepien, a former top aide to Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, whose role in the Bridgegate scandal led to his firing and denied him the central role he was expected to play in the governor's presidential run.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 16 - 06:24 PM

Now HERE'S the guy that should be Trump's running mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 16 - 11:10 AM

Ake, a few more interesting facts about that piece of human garbage you think so much of:

'No Vacancies' for Blacks: How Donald Trump Got His Start

......excerpts......
Over the next decade, as Donald J. Trump assumed an increasingly prominent role in the business, the company's practice of turning away potential black tenants was painstakingly documented by activists and organizations that viewed equal housing as the next frontier in the civil rights struggle.

The Justice Department undertook its own investigation and, in 1973, sued Trump Management for discriminating against blacks. Both Fred Trump, the company's chairman, and Donald Trump, its president, were named as defendants. It was front-page news, and for Donald, amounted to his debut in the public eye.

Looking back, Mr. Trump's response to the lawsuit can be seen as presaging his handling of subsequent challenges, in business and in politics. Rather than quietly trying to settle he turned the lawsuit into a protracted battle, complete with angry denials, character assassination, charges that the government was trying to force him to rent to "welfare recipients" and a $100 million countersuit accusing the Justice Department of defamation.

When it was over, Mr. Trump declared victory, emphasizing that the consent decree he ultimately signed did not include an admission of guilt.

But an investigation by The New York Times — drawing on decades-old files from the New York City Commission on Human Rights, internal Justice Department records, court documents and interviews with tenants, civil rights activists and prosecutors — uncovered a long history of racial bias at his family's properties, in New York and beyond.

That history has taken on fresh relevance with Mr. Trump arguing that black voters should support him over Hillary Clinton, whom he has called a bigot.

Complete article HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 09:29 AM

Yo, Ake!

The Real Clinton Foundation Revelation

By RICHARD W. PAINTER      AUG. 31, 2016


When I was the chief White House ethics lawyer for President George W. Bush, I asked many prospective administration officials if they would sell stock in companies, give up stock options, step down from nonprofit boards or make other painful choices to enter public service. Some balked. I told them that someone more important than I was, perhaps the president or the White House chief of staff, would ask them, "Do you want this job or don't you?"

I know about the difficult questions, and entanglements, that crop up in public service. I believe that Hillary Clinton has asked and successfully answered those questions as they pertain to the Clinton Foundation. There is little if any evidence that federal ethics laws were broken by Mrs. Clinton or anyone working for her at the State Department in their dealings with the foundation. Unfortunately, the foundation is still fuel for Mrs. Clinton's persistent critics.

These critics have yet to point to any provision of the federal statutes or ethics regulations that was violated by Secretary Clinton or her staff in their dealings with the foundation and its principals, agents and donors. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/opinion/the-real-clinton-foundation-revelation.html?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:04 PM

For those of you who know what the October surprise is all about be assured that Trump has a tri pronged surprise that is already set in motion.

With mission impossible aplomb the hot sauce bottle in Hillary's purse will be removed, Carfentanil added in trace amounts and returned.

Fake e mail from Snowden to Hillary is revealed that implicates Hillary tied to Isis contributors.

Clinton Foundation linked to payments to the FBI.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:10 PM

" If we don't watch it we could have Taco trucks on every corner."

NOW THAT AN AMERICA I CAN BELIEVE IN.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:22 PM

Hey Ake!

READ THIS !

It might just save your arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:12 AM

Trump Putince 2016
Make America Russia again.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 03:27 AM

It seems that Mr Trump may be correct in his assessment of Mr Putin's leadership credentials, as the US have just announced that they are to share security and work with Russia to defeat ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:56 AM

While I do not wish to contribute to more free airtime for yoo-no-hoo, Andy does it again. (A little while ago.)


WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—President Barack Obama defended his decision on Wednesday to issue a payment of five billion dollars to Mexico to compel that nation to retain custody of Donald J. Trump.

The payment, which will be delivered to the Mexican government in hard American currency by Wednesday afternoon, will insure that Trump will remain in Mexico for the rest of his natural life.

"I have been assured by the government of Mexico that Mr. Trump will be well taken care of and, if he proves to be a productive member of their society, will be provided a pathway to Mexican citizenship," Obama said.

While the transfer of funds to Mexico sparked howls of protest from some Trump supporters, it was hailed by congressional Democrats, as well as by over a hundred Republicans currently running for reëlection, including Arizona Senator John McCain.

The President bristled at the suggestion that paying Mexico to keep Trump was "reverse ransom" and an extravagant use of taxpayer money. "There is only one accurate word for this payment: a bargain," he said.

Andy Borowitz is a New York Times best-selling au

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 09:51 AM

It seems that Mr Trump may be correct in his assessment of Mr Putin's leadership credentials

Same old BS, eh Ake? Well, wait a minute - no, on rflection that's more egregious than usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 10:43 AM

Saul, That was an original hysterical take that never crossed my mind.

If the taxes of the Donald are ever reviewed it will become abundantly clear that Trump is one of the biggest pornographers in the world second only to Vladimir Putin. They both collect money as clearing houses for individual porn studios. The silent partners and shadow companies handle the rest.

Along with his immigrant models indentured servants and the lure of is miss universe scams he is respondsible for an abuse of women that is deeply a part of his soul. Donald shares a common attitude with Mr. Ailes.

None of this should be unbelievable to anyone.

Subject: RE: IS GOD CORRUPT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 11:05 AM

The final proof if God is corrupt will be written in stone if Donald Trump WINS the election.

We will finally know if the God fix is in even if Donald wins the popular vote but loses the electoral college.

To allow a racist hate baiting pornographer film flam liar despot loving narcissistic egomaniacal creep who is globally ignorant to become President of the USA is proof GOD was paid off.

Trump says his all time favorite best seller is the Bible.
>2 Corinthians walk into a bar and God said to hell with that.<

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:01 PM

Here's a surprise from the Harvard Republican Club, and I'm not being sarcastic. I usually stay away from political threads, but a Facebook Friend posted this and I thought it belonged on this Mudcat thread. I am not going to defend the content of this article but am posting to add to information. http://democraticreview.com/index.php/2016/08/07/harvard-republican-club-just-did-this-for-the-first-time-in-their-history-and-t

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:26 PM

No surprise at all. Most Harvard students/graduates are literate and intelligent.

They can recognize a slimy piece of shit when they see one.

Congratulations to the Republican Club are in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:16 PM

So no comment on the US govts decision to work with people whom Mrs Clinton reckons are a menace to world peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:47 PM

Ake, tell your story walking. And get over your monomaniacal anti-Clinton delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 07:36 AM

You can pretty much stick a fork in the Donald after the release of the Access Hollywood video and his half-assed video apology last night.

Video and link to article here.

We still have to get to the polls though and encourage others to as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

"These words do not reflect who I am". I don't know how many politicians I have head say that. But let's be quite clear: if they were not taken out of context, they do reflect who you are. They are exactly how you behave and think when you are not challenged about it.

You may rethink it later and apologise, either because you genuinely think you were a dolt or because it is expedient to do so, and either says something about who you are as well. But spare us this "It's not who I am" guff.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 08:51 AM

I have prayed for his political demise many a time and been disappointed. May be this time? Sunday's debate should be entertaining, to say the least. He wants to attack HRC for hubbies behavior? BRING IT. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 09:39 AM

You can pretty much stick a fork in the Donald

No such luck. The cochroaches still love him, and WILL vote for him.

"It ain't over till its over".

And even when it IS over, we'll still have millions of pissed-off cockroaches.

Should be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 10:12 AM

Interesting?

In the Chinese sense of the word, I presume.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 10:17 AM

Eggs-zackerly.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM

Maybe he can go back to reality TV. Some desperate cable channel might go for "Celebrity Apprentice Groper".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 12:34 PM

Only in America could talking about it be deemed worse than actually doing it.   Have you forgotten Bill Clintons cigar butts or the Kennedy's serial womanising?....I don't think it made them worse presidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:00 PM

That's the thing to do - obfuscate when your candidate has been caught being as smarmy as possible:

Blame everyone else.

Suggest that talking about it doesn't have any correlation to his actions.

Keep it up, Ake. See how far you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Ake, tell your story walking. And get over your monomaniacal anti-Clinton delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:06 PM

"But Billy did it too"
Most people get past that excuse by the 3rd or 4th grade.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

Quite a few people around here don't, gillymor, and one's even called Billy.

Moving swiftly on...

What is it with these "famous" people that makes them feel so invulnerable?? They're living in a bubble. I've been a bloke who's indulged in a bit Iof locker-room banter in my time but none of my mates would ever have put up with anyone else talking about women in that manner. The fact that he thinks it's ok to do it betrays a massive character defect. We saw it with Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile, arrogant to a fault, and the behaviour simply shows that he's not fit to be let loose in a fish and chip shop, let alone the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

Will he no come back again
aaaaaaaawill he no come back again
Oh so well, loved was he
Will he no come back again.


Meanwhile the Hillary Oct surprises by WikiLeaks are yawn worthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: meself
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:32 PM

Okay, apart from the politics and the misogyny - does anyone else find Donald Trump's manner of speech seriously weird? The way he puts words together makes this whole thing so much creepier ....

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:41 PM

You want a diagnosis?

He has little or no empathy just like a social psychopath.
He objectifies the people around him like a social psychopath.
He lies without self knowledge like a social psychopath
Is he a narcissist?
That is the least of it.

I diagnosed organic brain disease in Reagan on TV 6 years before his admission. I was not invited back.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:42 PM

I've said all along he doesn't want to win, he wants to make a ton of money running. Seems like he's right on track.

I am officially no longer worried that he might win.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:59 PM

Meanwhile in Nottingham (England)...

pub urinal

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 08:38 PM

I also am no longer worried that Trump may win.

But I'm still worried about what his supporters are going to do when he loses. The day after the 2012 election, even his supporters were already saying, "Mitt who?" Don't bet on that happening this time around. There are too many hot-heads among loyal Trumpers.

And I'm worried about the longer term effects of his candidacy and its implicit message that outward expressions of intolerance, even hostility, are acceptable and bear no consequences. The Trump message and style are logical extensions of the lack of civility already inherent in Internet chat rooms and unscripted television. Trump has made it part of politics as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 08:50 PM

Tender is the foot of civility as it limps through the land of tweets.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 07:49 AM

Well at least you ladies over 35 know now that you can sleep safely in your beds at night. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:31 AM

We are left asking

what did people expect?

The Trump SS (shit show) never fails
to entertain.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

I've said all along he doesn't want to win, he wants to make a ton of money running. Seems like he's right on track.

I am officially no longer worried that he might win.

Whether he wants to win isn't the issue, unless he actually pulls out. Or resigns after being elected, as happened with Ukip last week.

The big danger is that if everyone starts seeing him as dead in the water, and stays home or votes Green or something, he could still get elected. It doesn't matter how few people vote for him, so long as Hillary doesn't get the votes to beat him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:00 PM

You're right, Steve. Trump is too stupid to see how attractive older women are.

Like BWL, I am worried about his followers. They may have said "Mitt who?" in 2012 but his supporters in the House declared they would work single-mindedly to block everything that Obama wanted and in 2008 declared they would try to make him a one term president. They were pretty effective with that first part. Mindlessly banding together to subvert the legislative process, regardless of merit, simply because they wanted to send a message to an uppity Black man who was elected to the highest office. Anyone set the odds they'll try to do the same thing to the uppity woman who is elected to the highest office?

Fingers crossed the "down ballot" elections clear out some more of the Tea Party riffraff. (About 1/3 of them have already picked up their balls and headed home because being a politician is hard work, it isn't much fun, and they didn't know what the fuck they were doing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

Greg, I love the image of millions of pissed off cockroachs!

Check out you tube.. he's still here/trump Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:24 PM

A lot of these gutless Republican politicians who are jumping ship on Trump (why now and why not the very first day of his campaign when he characterized Mexicans as rapists and murderers when any decent person would have repudiated him) are turning toward Mike Pence who is about as extreme a right winger as you will find. He makes Ted Cruz look like Ted Kennedy.
Guardian article here

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 04:31 PM

And then I give you Rudy Giuliani - who is - tho its hard to credit - an even slimier piece of shit than Trump hisself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

The battle of little big hands is about to begin aka 2nd debate,
and may be known in the future as Cusswords last stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 07:50 PM

GREG this one is for you

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 08:11 PM

Thank's Donuel - and THANK YOU ROBERT! that sums it up pretty succinctly.

But I'm still worried about the millions of cockroaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:24 PM

The man is a life-size dick walking around without a condom over his head.

DeNiro said it.

"If you care about your future, vote for it."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

I think Hillary handled the matter of Trump's Access Hollywood sex-talk video just right. She took the high road, and spoke of it as just one thing on a long list. It was fun to watch Trump squirm when he talked about the video.

Trump's "because you'd be in jail" line was totally without support, but I think it pleased his supporters.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 06:37 AM

A friend once described this latest Trumpgate type scenario, succinctly.

"No one corrects them, they are too valuable to disagree with them"

Well, IMNSHO, there is a huge correction going on, but Trump is too focussed on himself to take much notice.

Learn from the UK and maybe Austria. Just because Trump isn't going to win, doesn't mean you can be re-assured. Shit happens.

Don't forget - Nigel Farrage has been advising Trump. Be afraid!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 08:37 AM

"Pussygate" appears to have been addressed to the satisfaction of the debate audience. Perhaps a bit more concentration on foreign affairs would be more germane, as world war three is a distinct possibility if Mrs Clinton wins the presidency.
Her stance of removing President Assad at ALL COSTS is extremely short sighted even for her.

Mr Red, you are right once more. I listened to the whole debate as it happened and I remarked to my son this morning that I heard definite echo's of Mr Farage in Mr Trumps delivery.
Another performance like last night may just be enough to tip the balance.
To me the most salient point in the debate was Mr Trump's statement that both parties are corrupt ....Democrat and Republicans.....and there is no chance of change while the Two Party system has control.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 02:55 PM

Just one question then, ake. Do you think it acceptable to talk about women that way when you are in the locker room?


I don't, so saying "it is just locker room talk" doesn't cut a lot of ice with me.

Of course? I have no vote either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:27 PM

Shits of a feather flock together:

""Nigel Farage, interim leader of the UK Independence Party, was also in the spin room to defend Trump and attack Clinton as a threat to democracy. "If you value democracy and if you value being in control of your own destiny then you have to reject Hillary Clinton's ideas. Simple," said Farage.""


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/10/debate-donald-trump-threatens-to-jail-hillary-clinton

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:28 PM

Of course I don't think it's acceptable D and I never converse in that manner, but such intercourse does go on in all types of society and politicians seem to be drawn to that sort of thing....I and I suppose you, have heard it many times.

Is Acme's description of Mr Trump so much different? Would it have been acceptable if directed at a woman?

President Clinton actually engaged in the sexual abuse of young interns, he was supported by Mrs Clinton who verbally attacked the victims   THAT is different.

In saying that many of our best politicians have been sexually, or rather, morally flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:33 PM

To me the most salient point in the debate was Mr Trump's statement that both parties are corrupt

Once more, your delusional false equivalence.

Ake, tell your story walking. And get over your monomaniacal anti-Clinton delusions.

Trump's "because you'd be in jail" line was totally without support, but I think it pleased his supporters.

Yep, Joe, the cockroaches - who inhabit a fact-free dimension- love him.

Just wait till he loses & the cockroaches take to the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:46 PM

Of course I don't think it's acceptable D and I never converse in that manner, but such intercourse does go on in all types of society and politicians seem to be drawn to that sort of thing....I and I suppose you, have heard it many times.

Quite so, Ake. You are free to hear such things and as a sentient and free person can choose not to follow suit. As can I.

As could Donald Trump, but he chose to demean women instead. And as I repeat, it is no sort of excuse to say other people do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:50 PM

such intercourse does go on in all types of society

Ake, see 08 Oct 16 - 01:06 PM . And tell your story walking.

Cockroaches On Parade

Scroll down to "Trump Twitter Loved It" by Zeynep Tufekci

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM

I would add that as far as we can tell from the recording, he was not reacting to other people making remarks like that, he was initiating them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:01 PM

I'm also wondering what his followers, if he still has any, will do when he loses. Obama should have the National Guard on alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:01 PM

Poor old Donald, Paul Ryan bailed on him today. When it rains it pours.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:14 PM

his followers, if he still has any

He has, ans will have, millions. Be afraid, be very afraid......

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:18 PM

I think the actions of the Republican establishment will be of benefit to Mr Trump in the country.
The Republican establishment hate him even more than the equally corrupt Democrats do.

Anything which frightens the political establishment must be good for America.   Mr Farage engineered a famous victory overran out of touch establishment, Mr Trump can do the same.

It is imperative for world peace that Mrs Clinton is defeated and that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she is female.

Neither should that fact influence how people vote........policies, especially foreign policy are especially important at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:23 PM

You're whipping a dead horse, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:27 PM

And, available for viewing just now: videos of Trump, at the time of Bill Clinton's sex debacle, 1: expressing sympathy for what Hillary was subjected to, and 2: demeaning the women who brought accusations against Bill. Ya can't make this stuff up...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:28 PM

No, Ake is whipping a dead fallacy (or fallacies), as he has been since the outset.

Anything which frightens the political establishment must be good for America

Said like a true fascist. (or simply an idiot) Seig Trump! Seig Trump!! Seig Trump!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:39 PM

I worry a bit about the women who had that press conference with Trump before the meeting. If any money changed hands they will suffer greatly, and Teump will brush it off. And I am sure lots of press are examining waste bins and having drinks with their friends trying to find that out. Even if no money changed hands, there could be libel changes to face after the votes are in. Then at least one had a payment as part of an agreement not to pursue charges. She may be in breach of that agreement. All in all, these women could find they have drawn very short straws. And they are entirely dependant on the Clintons deciding pursuing such actions would do more harm than good.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

As none of the accusations against Clinton were ever proved and the majority simply thrown out of court, I hope the Clintons will file defamation suits PLUS initiating a criminal suit for conspiracy including the women, Trump, and Trump's handlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 07:23 PM

Nigel Farage's support isn't necessarily entirely helpful to Trump. He commented that Trump in the debate prowling around made him think of a silverback gorilla.

That was presented as a compliment, but I think any gorilla lover would call it a libel on gorillas.

Looking at that "debate" the thing that stood out for me was not so much the stuff that was said, it was Trump's body language. It was the stuff of nightmares the way he lurched around leaning menacingly over Hillary as she ignored him. It was like something out of a horror movie. His constant gurning made things worse. He doesn't even make any effort to avoid looking like a monster - as he said in that tape, and he's said in public speaking, he thinks get can get away with anything. I'm reminded of the way Jimmy Savile said the same thing, boasting of his invulnerability and in a way daring the world to recognise what he was, secure in the knowledge it wouldn't dare to join up the dots.

I too get frightened at the thought of President Clinton moving into action to sort out Syria with American military might. But the thought of President Trump and what he might decide to do is even scarier. Nothing he says gives any reliable hint of what he might do. I seriously think he is literally unhinged.

I just hope that the situation in Syria might have moved on to a stage where adventurism isn't an option by the time Hillary gets to run things.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 09:18 PM

he thinks get can get away with anything

Its not something he THINKS, Kevin, its a fact - as the millions of morons and worse who still love him at this point in time clearly demonstrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 09:36 PM

The relevant thing is that it's what he thinks. It may well be true, at least at this tine, but that's another matter. Even if it weren't true, he'd think it. I don't know whether he fits the criteria to be diagnosed as a psycopath - I suspect he well might - but that kind of belief in being invulnerable is a characteristic of psycopathy.

Here is a checklist of psycopathic qualities ( the Hare Psychopathy Checklist Revised, or Hare PCL-R.) A lot of it these to fit remarkably well with what we have seen of Trump

Glibness/superficial charm

Grandiose sense of self-worth

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom

Pathological lying

Conning/manipulative

Lack of remorse or guilt

Shallow affect

Callous/lack of empathy

Parasitic lifestyle

Poor behavioral control

Promiscuous sexual behavior

Early behavior problems

Lack of realistic, long-term goals

Impulsivity

Irresponsibility

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Many short-term marital relationships -

Juvenile delinquency

Revocation of conditional release

Criminal versatility

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 09:50 PM

Of course he's a narcissistic psychopath, Kevin - was in the beginning, is now & ever shall be, Trump (and Trumpist's - who are also largely psychopathic) without end, Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 10:01 PM

I'm a gorilla lover and I agree with your assessment, Mac. I came face to face with a silverback mountain gorilla in Rwanda in 2005 and he seemed to have a far more imposing intellect than Donald.

Last night he kept looming up behind Ms. Clinton like a thug and I imagine that in light of his groping remark in the Access Hollywood video women viewers all across the nation were cringing. It's showing up in the polls.   

Florida voters will have at least until Wednesday to register to vote. A federal judge overruled our jackass governor (Rick Scott scored big with the GOP by reducing early voting days in 2012 here for no other reason than that it benefits Democratic voters) who refused to extend the registration deadline due to Hurricane Matthew and the subsequent flooding and evacuations. There's to be a hearing tomorrow that might extend it further.

Article here

From the artlcle:

"It has been suggested that the issue of extending the voter registration deadline is about politics. Poppycock," Walker wrote. "This case is about the right of aspiring eligible voters to register and to have their votes counted. Nothing could be more fundamental to our democracy."

Article here

So if you live in Florida and haven't registered to vote better shake a leg.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 03:34 AM

The biggest problem facing the world at the moment is Islamic Fundamentalism, removing president Assad from power will ensure Syria goes the way of all the other interventions with which Mrs Clinton has been deeply involved....Is there anyone here who disagrees with that?

The defeat of IS cannot be achieved without the involvement of Iran, Russia and the Syrian govt. That is a fact that most serious commentators accept.
Mrs Clinton is basically a Neo Con who has said that she is dedicated to regime change in Syria, as she was in Iraq and Libya.

As a socialist, I would never in a million years have voted for someone with Mr Trumps ideas on running the economy, but the very real threat of a world war over a discredited ideology like illegal regime change should make even the most blinkered ideologues of Mudcat pause for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 08:42 AM

I totally disagree with your "biggest problem" premise. If we don't start taking climate change as our foremost concern, all the rest of humanity's bullshit will be meaningless. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 09:05 AM

"If we don't start taking climate change as our foremost concern, all the rest of humanity's bullshit will be meaningless. Mike"

I quite agree with that.
Perhaps the most dangerous thing about Trump is that he's a climate change denier and lies about it to boot.
From the Huffington Post

Be sure to scroll down and read his tweets.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 09:46 AM

We crush Islamic Fundamentalism bu supporting "illegal regime change" in the form the Arab Spring protests took.
The U.N. was made impotent by the Russian/Chinese veto and the fact that the West continue to support "legal" regimes such as Assad and the Saudis have meant that the protesters turned to Isis to fill the gap was both inevitable and predictable.
The terms "legal" and "illegal" are totally irrelevant in States like Syria and Saudi Arabia, given the leader they have got.
Britain voted not to become militarily involved in this conflict, not we are up to our arses in it - on the same side as the despots.
We are feeding future fundamentalism
Surely there is a lesson to be learned there?
I suspect that, given the West's overall attitude to Climate Change, it seems more than a little daft to point the finger at Trump and ignore what has gone before - stable doors and bolting horses, and all that!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:05 AM

but the very real threat of a world war

Oh, PLEASE Ake! Get over your monomaniacal anti-Clinton delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:08 AM

By the deficits we may know the talents, by the exceptions we may know the rules, by studying illness we may model good health, by watching the psychopathy we can build mental health , by summing up the fear, lies, hatred, all things deemed failures and disasters we can bring goodness into focus, by the disposable relationships we know true friendships, by what comes out of a person we know what goes in.

By the length of a run on sentence we may know the vehemence.




(A Few of my Worst Things by Donuel.)

Ego and self worth and need for attention
LOVE TO CAUSE ANGUISH with evil intention
Grandiose sense of self worth here on Earth
These are a few things that're worst of the worst

When abuse stings, when a lie clings, when the creep wants more
Donald feels good like he knew that he would
Because psychopath Trump is bored.


Callous and shallow with gold plated showers
feeding his gross whims and snorting for hours
Pretending he's smarter and better than you
With him as your boss you would rather have flu.

When abuse stings, when a lie clings, when the creep wants more
Donald feels good like he knew that he would
Because psychopath Trump is bored.


abridged

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:12 AM

Perhaps the most dangerous thing about Trump

Trump is not dangerous - he's an ignorant narcissistic buffoon.

His followers and supporters are dangerous - and numerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:21 AM

"Climate change" is another bye product of "wealth creation" another symptom of both private and state capitalism.

if we want to halt and perhaps reverse climate change, we must stop the search for ever increasing living standards and personal financial aspiration
Real socialism contains the answers to all these problems, but is it already too late?

Neither Mr Trump or Mrs Clinton will have any effect on the rate of climate change......it is long since out of their hands

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

Useful idiots are not a danger by themselves but with Bannon fascists and Russian mobsters by Trumps side the danger/corruption intensifies.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM

Jim: "...it seems more than a little daft to point the finger at Trump and ignore what has gone before - stable doors and bolting horses, and all that!!"

Who was doing that? What would be daft, given the preponderance of evidence, would to be to elect a president who would ignore global warming and even go as far as to resurrect the coal industry. This is just one item on a long list of issues that disqualify the orange buffoon from becoming POTUS but, to me, it's the most important.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:36 AM

Jim, the vote in the UK parliament was to bomb the Syrian govt into submission and remove their president.

If that had happened Syria would now be Libya, Russia and America would possibly be at war. Isis would control the whole of Syria, Iraq and Libya.

We should be in unison with Russia in crushing IF wherever it rears its ugly head.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

"If that had happened Syria would now be Libya, Russia and America "
Assad was at the height of massacring his own people
It would have been an act of humanity to stop him doing so.
To suggest that the Arab Spring would only bring changes for the worse is to condemn those living under the regime we count as our friends (Assad included) to eternal oppression.
Had we coupled active support for Arab Spring with the winning of the hears and minds of the people, Isis would have remained a weird isolated sect - instead, we chose to pursue our own interests and sell weapons and equipment to the oppressive regimes - that is why the protests turned sour - Isis was the result.
Even after his own establishment men fled from Syria and begged Britain to exert economic and political pressure on Assad, Britain turned a deaf-ear and did s.f.a. - he still owns untouched millions worth of property in London.
If we continue supporting these monsters, we'll be bringing our grandchildren home in body-bags.
Defeating Isis is totally useless without a back-up plan.
"we must stop the search for ever increasing living standards and personal financial aspiration"
Nothing to do with an economic system based on profiteering from the Planet's natural resources, of course.
All the fault of Joe Public.
My, my, my - you really are an establishment 'cap-doffer' aren't you?
The planet is being raped for profit by big business - not by the man in the street.
No system of ecological change will ever be adopted while it is profitable to exploit nature - from the use of wing and sea power to the everlasting light bulb.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM

"Wind and sea power" of course - bloody keyboard
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:31 AM

Jim, is it possible to at least TRY to stick to the subject, and not take off like dog after a bitch in heat when Ake merely shows up in a thread?

We have enough "wrecking crew" Brit-centered thread fuck-fests here without subverting discussion about America's most prominent sociopath.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:44 AM

Developing alternate fuel, solar wind geothermal heat will make carbon based fuel sources less profitable and therefore limited. Natural gas is proof of that, witness the decrease of oil prices. Fracking, however, is not a viable solution, anymore than atomic power for obvious reasons. We can't go back, we must find ways to sustain ourselves without poisoning ourselves at the same time. Even Greg's cockroaches should understand that. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:47 AM

A few of the worst things


Ego and self worth and need for attention
LOVE TO CAUSE ANGUISH with evil intention
Grandiose sense of self worth here on Earth
These are a few things that're worse than the worst

Callous and shallow with gold plated showers
Feeding his gross whims and snorting for hours
Pretending he's smarter and better than you
With him as your boss you would rather have flu


When abuse stings, when a lie clings, when the creep wants more
Donald feels good like he knew that he would
Because psychopath Trump, is bored.


Muslims are ALL bad but I'm not a racist
Global warming is fake shit Latinos are rapists
Pussy's expensive and women are whores
These are Trump favorites he loves to adore

The faithful are suckers and so are the red necks
Republican ******* did not give me respect.
When the big election , finally came in,
"I told you its rigged" but the Trump did not win.


When abuse stings, when a lie clings, when the creep lies more
Donald feels good he did not feel the blow
Because psychopath Trump , has a show.

end

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

There is no reason believe anything Trump says. He could block any USA involvement in Syria, or he could launch a nuclear war. There's no way of predicting what he'd do.

I share aken's apprehension about the possibility of President Clinton and Syria, and agree with him in seeing the Assad-must-go line as wrongheaded, and playing into the hands of Isis and it's fellow jihadists who are the most effective fighting force among the rebels.

The only sane position is to push for an end to fighting, with free and open elections. If people were to choose to vote for Assad or for Assadists, that is down to them. If the jihadists were to pull out from Aleppo (about 9,000 strong) and go to Isis controlled territory an effective ceasefire could probably be arrived at, leading to elections. The trouble is, they won't, and the other rebels aren't strong enough to compel them, even if they wish.

But this is a very unstable situation - there is every prospect that by the time Clinton were to become President in January things may have dramatically changed. Clinton in the White House is indeed a worrying thought in some ways. But the thought of having Trump in the White House is completely terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

He still has riches of embarrassments to come
as well as an embarrassment of riches.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:06 AM

I see Trump has given his supporters some very sensible advice - to go to vote for him on 28th November.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

He did say that in a clear voice.
He rigged the election himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:19 AM

Trump = Moron. But he's "good for Amerika" - Ake will explain it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

Trump Again - like we did last summer...?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:36 AM

Trump, Trump, Trump, the boys are marching...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 11:06 AM

"Make America Grope Again"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM

"Jim, is it possible to at least TRY to stick to the subject,?"
I answered a point Ake was making - nothing to do with his "appearing on the thread"
Jeri
If it is off topic, it was made such by others, not me
Please be kind enough to mind your own business regarding how I make my postings.
By the way - th prospect of your home-grown sociopath becoming the head of the world's powerful country has us all running for our shelters - perhaps you might remember that before you start slinging your ""wrecking crew" Brit-centered thread fuck-fests" about and instead, try to work out what sort of country allows such an individual to become such a threat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 11:45 AM

"We have enough "wrecking crew" Brit-centered thread fuck-fests here without subverting discussion about America's most prominent sociopath."

See what we have to put up with in this country? Have some sympathy for the rest of us; our country is now a fuck-up-fest thanks to these wrecking crews and their myopic belligerence.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:21 PM

Jim, if you post it publicly, it IS my business.
The "sort of country that allow such an individual to become such a threat" is the same one that gives you the opportunity to devote your time to the reams of crap you write here. You can say mostly everything you want here.

Guess, what--so can the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:35 PM

You don't specify which country is "this country", Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:00 PM

"Jim, if you post it publicly, it IS my business."
The idea of public debating forums is that anybody can debate what they wish, hopefully without interference.
I say what I believe and don't expect to be told not to - I wouldn't do it to you.
"The "sort of country that allow such an individual to become such a threat" is the same one that gives you the opportunity "
Not sure I understand your point about (free speech maybe???)
Are you seriously suggesting that a nation that gave us Joe McCarthy, Nixon, Reagan, Dubya and now possibly Trump, poured burning petrol and carcinogenic 'Agent Orange'on Viet-Namese peasants for a quarter of a century, set up such examples as Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib.... actually added to our access to free speech.
In your dreams
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

I'm not doing trolls today, Jim, but nice try with the hatred of America angle.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

I can't speak for Jeri, but I can tell you what I would have meant if I had said, "...the same (country) that gives you the opportunity to devote your time to the reams of crap you write here. You can say mostly everything you want here."

I would have meant:

"This forum is hosted in the US and is owned by a US citizen who, in the spirit of The First Amendment to the US Constitution, has chosen to allow pretty much unfettered discussion of almost any subject. He does not have to do so. He could just as easily have a policy of 'No political discussion', or 'No religious discussion', or even 'No non-musical discussion'. He could run this place with an iron fist if he chose to, but he doesn't. His life would probably be easier if he'd simply eliminate the BS section all together, but he's probably not going to. Because he believes in free speech."

Now, back to Trump....

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:58 PM

The Florid CNN story about dibold vendors and Russian Hackers is about 5 minutes old and should appear on the internet momentarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:18 PM

"with the hatred of America angle."
Sighhhhhhh!!
Just like another country I could name - point out some bad eggs and you hate us all.
I certainly don't hate Americans, but living within thirty miles of an airport which regularly allowed planes carrying manacled, illegally held untried prisoners on their way to cages in the baking hot sun and long-term separation from their families, tends to give you a somewhat jaundiced view of their various administrations.   
Back to Trump indeed.
If I went in for that sort of thing, I would be praying that this product of America privileged society gets the kicking he deserves in the election, but if anything good is to come out of all this, it must be that your country needs to take a serious look at how such a vicious cretin got as near as he did to The White House.
Something in this particular state is pretty rotten.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:54 PM

Your airport story reminded me of when Bush was President. I used to watch the dead fly low and slow lumbering over my head in C-5 cargo planes when they would make their last pass over the capitol and monuments on their way to Andrews AFB.
Sometimes there would only be one plane but at the height of the Iraq war their could be as many as 5 airplanes full of the dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:42 PM

But ya don't count the dead when God's on your side.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:49 PM

Actually Jim it was anger at the established political system and how it works which produced Mr Trump and made him a viable candidate.

Look all over the developed world and you will see the same phenomenon, Mr Corbyn is also a product of public dissatisfaction with establishment politics.

The Republican establishment hates Trump Just as the Democrat establishment hated Bernie.......they see the danger signs ....not to America, but to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:06 PM

No, Ake - the danger signs are for the US and potentially for the entire world if that turd with legs that calls himself Trump is elected.

And, as Jim rightly says, its a disgrace to the U. S, that such a vicious cretin got as near as he has to The White House.

Tell your story walking, and get over your ridiculous anti-Clinton delusions.

Delenda est Trumpolo.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:57 PM

Trump Again Whittington, Lord Mayor of London...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:18 PM

Actually Jim it was anger at the established political system and how it works which produced Mr Trump and made him a viable candidate.

True enough - it would be equally true to say the same of Mussolini and Hitler.

I read that Citizen Kane is a favourite movie of Donald Trump. Makes sense. He probably switches off the last reel.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

I read that Citizen Kane is a favourite movie of Donald Trump.

I'm sure that the 1915 "Birth Of A Nation" (a.k.a. 'The Klansman') is also.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:13 PM

Where there's Trump,there's grope

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:40 PM

One would almost expect Trump would feel an "ownership" of women in his pageants, imported Trump modeling agencies and women on his show.

Sick, compulsive, bullying, controlling, narcissistic
but as he would say
"its good to be the King."

He even made comments about toddlers and Tiaras (beauty contests for 4 yr olds through 9 yr olds.


One could imagine to themselves he is an ideal candidate for 8 mm snuff films.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:46 PM

The account Trump gave, of just groping women because he was attracted to them - it sounds like a bad ride on a crowded subway in New York. I hazard the guess that most women have run into these cretins (I did, a couple of times) and were not impressed. At. All.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:41 AM

"You don't specify which country is "this country", Stu."

The UK. Good old blighty. Once more the home of nationalism, the little Englander mentality, the deluded, misinformed, hatful, xenophobic, homophobic, uncompassionate, misogynistic,short-termist, empire-loving, retrogressive, myopic, bullying boorish oafs we thought we'd consigned to mumbling at their pints in the corner of pubs whist the rest of the world at least tries to advance society in some way, shape or form. Instead of "taking back control" they're handing it lock stock and barrel to the Chinese, cuddling up to the Saudis and any other nasty regime they can make a quick buck off.

This is what America has to look forward to is Trump wins. Demagogues and ideologues having free reign over everyone in the country, turning the clock back and plunging us into a new age of ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:55 AM

"Actually Jim it was anger at the established political system and how it works which produced Mr Trump"
The Republicans were happy to back Trump whn he looked like a winner - any hatred that may now exist only showed its head when he became an embarrassment.
It was not anger that produced him - it was wealth.
Trump has no visible political skills; he has no record in politics - he bought his candidature.
In a way, he is an incidental in this discussion and making him the centre of attention misses the point.
A system which allows anybody to buy access to an office that places a finger such as Trump's on the nuclear button is terrifyingly dangerous and very much in need of repair.
Trump is, in fact, our near neighbour here in the West of Ireland - he owns a golf course just fifteen miles from here.
His club is still part of the long-running fight to make a stretch of our coast unavailable to public access - he's just been beaten in court, but I have no doubt that he'll be back.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:21 AM

The upper house of the New South Wales parliament in Australia has unanimously passed a motion calling Trump a "revolting slug" unfit for public Office.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:16 AM

And a Scottish court has ruled it's ok for women to pee on his golf course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-37642639

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:20 AM

"And a Scottish court has ruled it's ok for women to pee on his golf course."
I'll see if I can't get our local ladies 'in motion' as soon as possible
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:24 AM

Trump now being openly accused of sexual assaults on four women.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

plunging us into a new age of ignorance

Too late, Stu. And there's no need for a new age of ignorance.

Trump is the result of the old age of ignorance; the Republican War On Objective Reality waged since Reagan by Fox news, Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, Jones, Koch & etc. aided by massive cuts to education funding and the Republican War Against Teachers (and Teachers' Unions) by the same crew.

Recall Trump's own comment: "I love the poorly educated".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

"The UK. Good old blighty. Once more the home of nationalism, "
Nicely put Stu.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

To be fair, once you cut through all the crap, detritus, meaninglessness excrement and shitty lies you will find Trump is indeed the actual crap you just cut through.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:11 PM

Its too soon to call just like another time in history when the morning paper said CLINTO DEFEATS TRU
MAN

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Dewey, I think...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM


The Republicans were happy to back Trump whn he looked like a winner - any hatred that may now exist only showed its head when he became an embarrassment.

Wrong - he wasn't accepted happily by mainstream moderate Republicans (there are still a few). But as the momentum grew the Duck Dynasty trailer court crowd piled on, and there you have it. Many of the rest of the party members decided they had to settle for this candidate, how bad could it be; many of them still absurdly support this cretin because they can't imagine voting for another party.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:14 AM

I think the real reason such a large number of the US electorate support Mr Trump is that the opposing candidate is so obviously untruthful and hawkish regarding foreign policy.

Another reason of course is the proven corruption of both political parties, both of whom are heavily financed by and represent corporate interests. They make a mockery of the democratic system.

How long can the US voters continue to ignore the leaked e mails which prove the political corruption at the core of the establishment and the Clinton Foundation.
They no longer even attempt to deny the validity of these e mails, but instead "blame the messenger"
While diverting attention to the personal flaws of the opposition.

The situation is complete madness......A Clinton victory means a return to a "cold war mentality" and probably hot war just down the line.
If that happens, the UK's nuclear weapons are stored only a few miles from my house.....right against the highest centres of population in Scotland ......we will be one of the first targets, so I and the Scottish people have a vested interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:18 PM

Michelle Obama's speech last week was the perfect riposte to the blatant misogyny and emotional and intellectual immaturity of Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:23 PM

Ake, your anti-Clinton delusions appear to be unhinging you completely. You make less and less sense, and make increasingly fantasist and irrational statements as time goes on.

As for your nuclear war fantasy I think you really should seek psychological help.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:44 PM

I agree, Stu. Mr. Obama is a fine orator but he may be only second best in his own family.
Here it is

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:09 PM

Somehow, I don't see the logic in trying to combat "the proven corruption of both political parties" by attempting to elect someone as personally corrupt as Mr. Trump.

It's a bit like trying to clean up a corrupt police department by replacing crooked cops with hit men and dope dealers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

I think the real reason such a large number of the US electorate support Mr Trump is that the opposing candidate is so obviously untruthful and hawkish regarding foreign policy.

Any supporter of Trump has to have a remarkably high level of tolerance for untruthfulness. Including on foreign policy, where he still persists in the claim that he opposed the Iraq War, in face of cast iron evidence that he did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

The idea o fTrump commanding service men and women, sending them into battle is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM

Trump to Howard Stern in 1997:

"[Avoiding venereal disease] was my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier."


Trump at Fort Dodge, Ia., Nov. 12, 2015:

"I'm really good at war. I love war, in a certain way, but only when we win."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM

"The idea o fTrump commanding service men and women, sending them into battle is sickening"......of course it is, WAR is sickening.
It would be just as sickening and much more likely that they be sent into battle by Hillary the Hawk.

Mr Trumps ideas on Foreign policy in the middle east and North Africa would ensure co-operation between the great powers to defeat Islamic Terrorism which may yet destroy Western civilisation, Mrs Clintons ideas take us back three or four decades to a time when a nuclear holocaust looked imminent. Her record in making war is second to none.

The US electorate seem to be moving towards the "least worst" option....I agree with them, but my priority would be to avoid mutual destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:48 PM

Ake.

The Trumpshit HAS no ideas worth the name on Foreign policy in the middle east and North Africa. He's an ignorant idiot. See http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/08/politics/republican-national-security-letter-donald-trump-election-2016/

As for "Islamic Terrorism which may yet destroy Western civilisation"(emphasis mine) please do get that psychiatric help which you desperately need.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:33 AM


"I'm really good at war. I love war, in a certain way, but only when we win



This immediately reminded me of:

On the quilted battlefield.of soldiers
Dazzling, made of toy tin,
The big bomb, like a child's hand
Can sweep them dead just so to win.


Putting someone.who behaves like a petulant child in charge of the big bomb who likes winning wars is not an encouraging thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:00 AM

Both candidates have severe flaws, but that is a reflection on the US political system.

Regarding foreign policy ,Mrs Clinton has much previous form for doing extremely stupid things when in office. Her stance on Iraq, Libya and Syria being typical examples.
I fear the proven warmonger's finger on the nuclear button more than I do the finger of a "social illiberal", which is the reason for most of the hatred we see on these pages.

I'm sorry to say the "liberal" media rule the US and to a lesser extent the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:48 AM

Trump is an ignorant buffoon who I'm certain couldn't pass an 8th grade Civics class and is totally unfit to serve in any political office I can think of, let alone POTUS. I come to that conclusion not due to any mythical "liberal media conspiracy" but from a trail of readily available audio and video images that he's left,and still leaves, since the eighties when he first started to promote himself as a media star. The depth of his shallowness is easy to perceive for anyone whose judgment isn't tainted by extreme right wing bloggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:34 AM

And as for Trump's boast, recently reiterated by his pathetic stooge Chris Christie, that he's the only one who can fix the U.S. tax system because he knows how to screw it so effectively, does anyone believe that he has the attention span to read and understand our very complex tax code. He just turns it over to a bevy of tax lawyers and accountants and says do your best (or worst, as far as people who actually pay U.S. taxes are concerned).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:04 AM

I wonder how Trump knows he's "really good at war."

Of course, he also "knows more about ISIS than the generals do," so that might explain it. He's probably also seen "Inglourious Basterds."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:06 AM

I fear the proven warmonger's finger on the nuclear button more than I do the finger of a "social illiberal"

We know you do, Ake - but that fear is based on fantasy, bullshit, and delusion.

the "liberal" media

Thank you Tricky Dick Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:10 AM

Here's the latest from your hero, Ake:

PORTSMOUTH, N.H. — Escalating his criticism of Hillary Clinton's debate performances, Donald J. Trump came to a state battling a drug epidemic and suggested without any evidence on Saturday that his opponent had been on drugs during their second debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 01:09 PM

When it comes to which candidate is more likely to destroy us, I'd sooner trust the judgement and relevant experience of Noam Chomsky than yours, aken. And of course Chomsky is strongly critical of Clinton - but he sees her as a far better choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:48 PM

More Republican cockroaches ginning up the Trumpist cockroaches:

WASHINGTON — Donald J. Trump on Sunday intensified his claims that the presidential campaign is "rigged" against him, sowing doubts about the integrity of the country's democratic process even as his own running mate and other Republican leaders sought to assure voters they viewed the election as legitimate.

"The election is absolutely being rigged by the dishonest and distorted media pushing Crooked Hillary — but also at many polling places — SAD," Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter on Sunday.

Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House, and former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani of New York, both advisers to Mr. Trump, used television interviews on Sunday to suggest that Democrats tend to cheat in elections, accusing them of counting votes from dead people. And Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama, Mr. Trump's closest congressional supporter and a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has warned "they are attempting to rig this election."

Other supporters at Trump rallies have gone even further, attacking the political system as a whole and even threatening violence. To Democrats and a growing number of concerned Republicans, the gestures of intimidation, just over three weeks before Election Day on Nov. 8, are an ominous sign of how Mr. Trump and his backers might conduct themselves.

NY TIMES, OCT. 16, 2016

HEIL TRUMP! HEIL TRUMP!   HEIL TRUMP!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

Well Greg, we all KNOW that the Democrat establishment rigged the Primaries.....so it is not beyond belief that they would combine with the Republicans to rig the presidential election.
The media has been arse licking Mrs Clinton for the whole campaign, especially trying to bury her misdemeanours in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:16 PM

Michael Moore also suggested, sort of half seriously, Trump actually had no thought of winning, and doesn't want. He said it was about making sure his TV career didn't go down the drain.

I think he was watching Citizen Kane, one of his favourite movie. Kane of course run a populist campaign to get elected, and doesn't win, so Trump thought he could do better.

It's got nothing to do with politics. I doubt very much if he had any notion it could get this far. It's a kind of joyride that got out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:14 PM

Well Greg, we all KNOW that the Democrat establishment rigged the Primaries

No, Ake "we" don't.

so it is not beyond belief that they would combine with the Republicans to rig the presidential election.

Yes, Ake, it is.

The media has been arse licking Mrs Clinton for the whole campaign,

Actually, no, Ake, they've been giving The Trumpshit more coverage and the benefit of the doubt all along- until very recently.

Your ridiculous bullshit, fantasy nonsense and ignorance of the facts is getting really tiresome and annoying.

From above:

Other supporters at Trump rallies have gone even further, attacking the political system as a whole and even threatening violence.

Rather like our own Ake, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:26 PM

To rig a national election, there first has to be a national election. There's no such thing. US elections are strictly local affairs, run by local officials. About half of those officials are Democrats and half are Republicans. Rigging the election in Clinton's favor would require rigging thousands of local elections, many of which are run or overseen by Republican officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:13 AM

The possible "rigging" that I am referring to BWL is much more subtle than that and involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.......as Rap says its really all about power and money..........democracy comes a pretty poor third.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

It amazes me that after what was done to Mr Sanders in the Primaries and the role of money in the process, anyone can believe in the "integrity of the US political system".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:18 AM

Ake, tell your story walking. And get thee to an alienist.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:46 AM

What's an alienist? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

Of course it's a ramshackle and gerrymandered system. That's why a minority of Republican voters can control both houses of Congress, though the Republicans get more votes.

But if Trump goes down in flames, and drags the Republican Party down with him, that's his doing, through what he has done and said.

As for Bernie Sanders and the Democrat establishment, equally obviously they will have done everything they could to stop, as their opposite numbers in tge British Labour Party did, and are still doing, to Jeremy Corbyn. But what else could you expect? That's done and dusted, and the only way the movement backing him will get anywhere is with a victory against Trump, and a running battle with Clinton's administration.

Trump winning offers nothing but a kind of national auto-da-fe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

It amazes me that Ake doesn't have the sense to just shut up after he has painted himself into such a ridiculous corner. The nonsense and paranoia he presents is easily as bizarre as the nonsense Trump spouts.

Silence is Golden (so shut up and be rich!)

Someone, take away his keyboard, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM

That must be the most inane post on this thread.....including Greg's
profound contributions :0)......only kidding Greg I know you are a sincere believer in the good ole USA's political system, and I respect that.

I don't respect cowardly trolls like V T, who make no effort to engage seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:49 PM

Whereas you are congenitally incapable of engaging seriously.

And it would be VN, not VT.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

It's VT to me ....numpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

Ake said: " involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.."

Oh indeed! Like stating clearly what 30 years of accusations toward HER have actually shown.... and what 20-30 years of factual, historical data on HIM have shown.

Not liking Hillary or agreeing with all her policies & decisions are one thing (there's seldom a political figure with a perfect record or universal appeal)... but treating months of frantic mud-slinging by Repubs who simply want another Scalia or two on SCOTUS as grounds to vote for a slimeball egomaniac is a lame answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:01 PM

Second debate

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:19 PM

Jaysus, Jeri, you've cheered me up no end!😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:36 PM

Trump's tweets about that add a little bit more. He apparently hated it. Warms the cockles, it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:57 PM

The possible "rigging" that I am referring to... involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.....

That's not rigging an election. Rigging an election means precisely one thing: using fraudulent voting practices to alter the outcome of an election. It does not mean using less than scrupulous means to influence how voters perceive a candidate. That's called biased journalism or dirty politics, not election rigging.

If it doesn't have to do with the casting or counting of ballots, it's not election rigging. Period. Full stop. Mr. Trump is using the term entirely incorrectly to encompass entirely different areas of perceived political impropriety.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:09 AM

"Not liking Hillary or agreeing with all her policies & decisions are one thing (there's seldom a political figure with a perfect record or universal appeal)... ".......True, but Mrs Clinton is a proven Hawk who has supported military action in at least three abortive interventions, Iraq, Libya, and Syria and the last thing America or the world needs at this time is a warmonger.

"Foreign affairs" at this particular juncture are of the utmost importance.

PDL...I accept your assessment regarding the "Rigging" controversy, but the use of obscene amounts of money to buy most of the media is undemocratic to say the least.....here in the UK there is a cap on the amount of money which may be used for party political purposes during an election.
The actions of the Democrats in undermining one of the two Democratic Party candidates in the Primaries is in my view symptomatic of the corruption at the heart of US politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:12 AM

Sorry PWL!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:57 AM

the use of obscene amounts of money to buy most of the media is undemocratic to say the least.

I wouldn't disagree, but it is only part of the story. Particularly in the early stages of the campaign Trump got a lot of air time to present himself without being subject to criticism. The Guardian said this was estimated it would have cost 2 billion to buy that time, which is of course far far more than was actually spent. Then when it comes to media you need to look at how the time is being spend.   There has been a massive focus on Hillary's email but almost no mention of the huge volume of emails deleted or mislaid by Bush when he was in office. The republicans are not whiter than white when it comes to concealing things via emails.

So when it comes to media bias, I reckon there is more bias in Trump's favour than Hillary's. Oddly enough, he doesn't agree. Strange, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:02 AM

Trump is now insisting that the election will also be rigged "at the polls" by hordes of fraudulent voters in Hillary's employ.

Trump is urging his followers to show up in numbers at polling places (with their friends and families!) to challenge people they think look suspicious and keep them from voting.

Think about that one.

Marco Rubio and other Republican office-holders have denounced Trump's claims.

Eighty per cent of Trump's followers believe that the election may be rigged against him, and half say it *will* be.

More:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-stokes-fears-of-voter-fraud/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

D, I watch us politics very closely the main large news media have a huge bias towards the establishment even the ones who support the Republican Party.

I know they say that ALL publicity is GOOD publicity, but in Mr Trump's case that is certainly not correct. One only has to look at the political threads on this forum to see that even amongst so called progressives there is a bias towards the political status quo come election time, no matter how much they may chunter on about change when they only need to talk the talk.

The status quo is deep corruption and manipulation, personified by the Clinton Dynasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:49 AM

Trump was suggesting in early August that the voting would be "rigged" Even then he must have considered his chances of being elected were diminishing, if not actually none existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:21 AM

"A rigged election" is nothing more than Trump's preemptive excuse for the embarrassing loss he's about to suffer and his low-information supporters, who lack the intellectual vigor to think for themselves, just parrot his lunacy. These accusations of fraud are the most irresponsible, unpatriotic words I've ever heard spoken from a presidential candidate and it's all done to assuage his fragile ego. He doesn't give a FF about anyone but Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

Bernie Sanders is no hawk. Neither is Noam Chomsky. Both of them, in common with any number of people who have worked for peace all their lives agree that Trump would be a disaster,and Clinton has to be elected.

The only reason to imagine that Trump might be less likely to wage war is that on occasions he has said he would stay out of trying for regime change in Syria. On other occasions he's talked about waging total war. The pont is, nothong Trump promises means anything whatsoever. If his lips are moving it means he's lying.

Though maybe that's going too far. I think it likely when he promised that as President he would authorise a return to torture, and that water boarding was just a soft option , he probably meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 11:08 AM

" Mrs Clinton is a proven Hawk who has supported military action in at least three abortive interventions, Iraq, Libya, and Syria and the last thing America or the world needs at this time is a warmonger."

   That is a subjective interpretation of her actions and voting history, not a "proven fact".
In Iraq, G.W. Bush and his minions asserted that they had clear evidence that Saddam had WMDs and was prepared to use them! He was president and supposedly had CIA information as proof. That caused many senators who would NOT have otherwise to approve the invasion. She has since said she regrets having voted that way on falsified data.

In Libya, the evidence WAS clear that Khadaffi was brutally treating his own citizens AND that he was complicit in crimes against Americans.... Now, you may not consider those situations were serious enough to warrant military force, but unlike Iraq, Mrs. Clinton had direct access to the intelligence data on what was happening. It hardly make her a "warmonger" to decide to help.... and do remember: the basic decision was still Obama's.

   In last year's debate with Sanders:
HILLARY CLINTON:" Well, first, let's remember why we became part of a coalition to stop Gaddafi from committing massacres against his people. The United States was asked to support the Europeans and the Arab partners that we had. And we did a lot of due diligence about whether we should or not, and eventually, yes, I recommended, and the president decided, that we would support the action to protect civilians on the ground. And that led to the overthrow of Gaddafi.

I think that what Libya then did by having a full free election, which elected moderates, was an indication of their crying need and desire to get on the right path. Now, the whole region has been rendered unstable, in part because of the aftermath of the Arab Spring, in part because of the very effective outreach and propagandizing that ISIS and other terrorist groups do."

"Hawk" is not a precise term... it is merely an indication of a 'leaning' toward meaningful intervention when needed, but it gets tossed about as if it's the same as 'warmonger'....

ALL this is interesting, but practically irrelevant when comparing her with Trump, who has already used the term "bomb the shit out of them" as HIS simplistic approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:22 PM

Bill, if Mrs Clinton really believed President Bush's given reasons for taking your people to war, then she is too stupid to be president.
I marched on various demos against the war 100.000 people and not one of them believe what Bush or Blair were saying.
In all honesty, I don't think any of the politicians believed it either it was simply a bit of grandstanding by Blair and his cabinet... reflected glory...and for the minions the fear of being caught on the wrong side if the exercise had been any sort of success.

To do it once was bad enough but Mrs Clinton has done it three times the Libyan debacle being especially shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:48 PM

if Mrs Clinton really believed President Bush's given reasons for taking your people to war, then she is too stupid to be president.

You really are a goddamn ignorant fool, Ake. Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:15 PM

Bernie Sanders in an interview this week with NowThis "I think from a practical point of view, I would hope that all those people who worked with me on this campaign, who supported me, understand that Donald Trump would be a real, real, real disaster for this country."

"On the other hand, the day after the election, we don't sit back and say, 'well Clinton is president'," he added. "What we do is mobilize our people to make certain that hopefully President Clinton and hopefully a Democratic Senate moves forward with an agenda that helps transform his country."

"We are going to be introducing legislation piece by piece on trade, on raising the minimum wage, on making public colleges and universities tuition free on a medicare for all, on rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure"

"This is not trust, we're not here to trust," he explained. "It is the very opposite of what I am saying."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 03:23 AM

Mr McGrath, in my "subjective opinion" :0), Mrs Clinton will be in place to provide for her friends in Corporate America, not the underprivileged or preyed upon.

Mr Sanders understands the workings of a rogue capitalist system as well as any...and has obviously accepted the maxim....."If you cant beat them, join them".
I would not be surprized to see Mr Sanders in a token job in a Clinton administration. Unfortunately Mr Sanders has not the wealth or connections to big business to implement a "Trojan Horse" strategy as the Clintons did to against President Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM

Mr McGrath, in my "subjective opinion" :0), Mrs Clinton will be in place to provide for her friends in Corporate America, not the underprivileged or preyed upon.

I can only assume from that that you think Trump is for the underprivileged and preyed upon, or at least that the U+PO will feel less preyed upon after 4 years. Can't see it myself.

But given your previous posts about how the whole thing is corrupt and needs an overthrow, I would say electing Hillary is more likely to do that, given Trump's refrain to his supporters that they are about to be cheated. It only needs a fraction of one percent of his supporters to decide they have been cheated and must take action. A well armed militia against over powerful government and all that. Things could be bad, but fortunately the likihood of it being more than a few isolated incidents is low.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:29 AM

No D, I do not think the election of Mr Trump would be beneficial to the underprivileged, it's more subtle than that; it's really about the overthrow of the "Good cop/Bad cop" two party system which has been so ineffectual in respect of societal change.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:37 AM

I would add that it is vitally important that the West engages seriously with Russia and China......To oppose terrorism and encourage trade.   The days where America could dominate and at times terrorise the world have long gone.

A Clinton administration would ensure the erection of another political iron curtain between East and West which could only end in disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:48 AM

No D, I do not think the election of Mr Trump would be beneficial to the underprivileged, it's more subtle than that; it's really about the overthrow of the "Good cop/Bad cop" two party system which has been so ineffectual in respect of societal change.

Ah, so this is getting interesting. So you prefer to have Trump elected because it is more likely to lead to the overthrow of the system?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 08:27 AM

I was talking about the hideously corrupt US political system. (naughty D ) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:12 AM

What "good cop-bad cop system?"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:48 AM

Ignore him, Steve. He's becomming more unhinged and irrational by the hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:05 AM

Ake.. I provided a clear explanation for MY opinions about Clinton and her policies. You just repeat yourself and make sweeping statement declaring her to be a lying warmonger.

I don't care how you 'marched' and with whom. Obviously, anyone who is dead set against the war tends to not 'believe' the reasons for being there. Mrs. Clinton was no fan of Bush, but she was not the only Democratic senator to "give him the benefit of the doubt". When any president says he has clear evidence gathered by the CIA about a 'clear & present danger', it has to be taken seriously. That is not something one would expect a president to lie about... even a president you don't care for.

It is too bad Bush & his cronies did lie and lead us into the war, but Bush was the the stupid one if he believed Cheney.

It is the mark of a sane person to admit she guessed wrong about Bush and to change her position. Bush & Cheney continue to lie about their motives and information.....I'm not sure what Blair now thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:04 PM

But she didn't REALLY change her position Bill, as she repeated the same blunder in Libya and Syria.

Three times makes a warmonger and that's a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:19 PM

Ake, tell your story walking, and get over your ridiculous anti-Clinton delusions. One more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:58 AM

Although I am from the UK, I happen to be in Florida on business at the moment. That meant it was the first time I was able to watch the Presidential debate live and in its entirety; you would have to be very dedicated to do that in the UK, so we only really see the edited highlights as a rule. So I thought some people might be interested in how it struck me.

For quite a while, I was impressed with Trump's responses. From the edited highlights in the UK, we are shown a guy who is out of control and says the first thing that came into his head whether it bears any relationship to anything he has previously on not. And that was not the Trump on display. While I didn't agree with a lot he was saying, I could see it as a valid alternative viewpoint. So for example on the question of whether the constitution is a living document or one that needs to be constantly reinterpreted with the times, I can see why people could take each stance.

But then he started to slip; his self control was initially effective but seemed to be too much to maintain. People can pick on lots of different points but one that struck me was how several times when the moderator was attempting to ask the question that they were supposed to be debating Trump interrupted him and would not receive the question. There was a lot of evasion of questions on both sides, but the one which struck me from Trump was the one about putting us troops into Syria if Isis is driven out. Hillary gave a clear No, Trump basically said "we shouldn't start from here". The post debate spinners said he was just continuing the "don't advertise your plans in advance" but he wasn't. That would have been perfectly reasonable answer to the question but he chose not to use it, preferring a long rambling avoiding of the question.

As I say, Hillary avoided a fair share of points as well, one of which Trump drew everyone's attention to by saying something like "great dodge" (I forget the exact words, but it was two words with that sentiment.). He could have built on her avoiding the answer very effectively, but having highlighted it then dropped the ball and pretty much let her get away with it.

And as time wore on, there were all the things we in the UK get presented with: momentarily talking over an answer just saying "wrong", then long sections of half a minute or more just talking over Clinton's answers, dismissing all his accusers of being liars who were attention seekers or paid stooges, asserting things Hillary claimed he had said were made up when there are news recordings shown just afterwards of him saying it and so on.

And then the question of whether he would accept the result if it went against him. There were valiant attempt by republican commentators afterwards to cast this as being about individual contested results, or replays of the great hanging chad investigation, but that doesn't wash. Trump questioning of the result includes individual results, but puts as much emphasis on things like "media bias" so it would be quite consistent (if things fell out that way) if results showed Hillary had a big numerical lead for him still to insist the result should be contested because it was rigged by a biased media.

And overall? If Trump had maintained the self control I think - as a debate - they were roughly tied. Depending on whether you agreed with their stance or not already changes that of course, but each had valid criticisms of the other that could individually be chalked up as a 'won point'. But Trump lost that self control, and that cost him the debate, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

As Ake seems to wholeheartedly believe every piece of nonsense (polite term) and "scandal"[sic] ever levelled against Clinton from Whitewater to Vince Foster on down to the present day, its only fair to award him the Trey Gowdy Lifetime Achievement Award for sheer, single-minded, dogged ignorance, in service above and beyond the call for believing the unbelievable and for relentless pursuit of shibboleths.

Congratulations, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:07 AM

I can see why some Americans feel unhappy at the choice. It's a bit like having to choose between Tony Blair and Nigel Farage. Not too easy.

Except Donald Trump is several degrees nastier and more frightening than even Nigel Farage. And at least Hillary Clinton admits Iraq was a mistake, which Tony still won't do.

In some way what really matters is what happens in the Congress elections, as Bernie Sanders indicated in that interview I quoted.

As for speculating as to what they might do in foreign affairs, there are no reasons whatsoever to believe President Trump would be less likely to land us in war than President Clinton II. His words? You must be joking. His words are completely irrelevant to predicting his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:58 AM

If you keep answering Ake, you're letting him control this discussion. Since he doesn't understand US politics or, apparently, world politics, then it's best to NOT FEED THE TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

I think you are wrong Acme, the thread has come to life given the contributions of DMG and Mr McGrath,
At least people are starting to question the political system and discuss the issues.....Is that not better than a whole list of obscene name calling like we had in the beginning.
You like to imagine that you live in a democracy, well start living up to the principle.....there are many millions of Americans who will vote for Mr Trump and their views are as valid as yours even if you disagree with them; you insult my political comprehension, but you fail to show any understanding of the wider issues which will become apparent after the election, or of foreign affairs in general.

Your stance seems to be purely feminist and that is not a good way to decide who is to be the next president of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

many millions of Americans who will vote for Mr Trump and their views are as valid as yours

Bullshit. Their views are based on lies, buffoonery, ignorance, under-education, racism & misogyny. Their views have no validity at all.

Your stance seems to be purely feminist

On the contrary- its purely rationalist, whilst yours, Ake, is uninformed, bigoted nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

A very interesting Post DMcG.......but bias can be very subtle as I tried to explain earlier.
Now you are obviously a supporter of Mrs Clinton from your previous posts and I couldn't help but notice that you referred to Mr Trump as "Trump" and Mrs Clinton as "Hillary" throughout the post.
As UKer, that signifies bias to me though it may have been unintended, the media do it all the time a constant drip drip, be it against Mr Trump, "The Russians", President Assad, or Mr Corbyn, depending who is media "Monster of the Week"

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans.....Now that would make most thinking people believe that the US political establishment are closing ranks and attempting to subvert democracy....would it not?

The US political system is based on a sham democracy and the election of Mrs Clinton will ensure that sham is continued. Mr McGrath says that "at least she admitted to being wrong over Iraq", but she then compounded the mistake a further two times.....including her chortling response to the vicious murder of the Libyan head of State.

Was that the action of someone who understands foreign affairs...I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

ake: "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans....."

There is good reason for that bias, ake. MISTER Trump started out weird and loud and got only worse. Whyever in the world would there NOT be bias?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM

I do tend to refer to Hillary and Trump but I wouldn't read too much into that in terms of bias. It is simply the common terminology arising from the fact that since Clinton could mean either Bill or Hillary it is easier to use the first name. I have also seen almost no instances of Donald except in the negative form of "The Donald". Yes, I have a preference but I think I made it clear in my post I had criticisms of Mrs Clinton if you prefer that terminology. I also refer to Boris rather than Mr Johnson but I am no supporter of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:37 PM

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans.....Now that would make most thinking people believe that the US political establishment are closing ranks and attempting to subvert democracy....would it not?

Jesus wept.

No, you dumb bastard, it would not.

It would make most people with even a pretention towards intelligence that Trump was a piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:11 PM

It isn't always an indication of support to use a first name. Tony, Maggie, Nigel. Even Adolf.... Though I suppose when people scream "Hang Hillary" it does in a sense indicate they would atually like to support her.
................
The antagonism against Trump and Trumpism stretches a lot wider than Democrats and Republicans. Once again I cite Noam Chomsky, as a reminder that there's a left tradition in America too - and it's members recognise Trump as a quasi-fascist in another American tradition. When we talk of populism we should remember that lynch mobs are a kind of populism. In which context, a slogan like "Hang Hillary" does indeed fit very easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:24 PM

Absolutely, Kevin - the Ku Klux Klan, the Cultural Revolution, the Palmer Raids,the Tailgunner Joe McCarthy Show, and the Nazi Party were also "expressions of popularism".

However, Ake is impervious to all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:50 PM

Do the rules of debate on Mudcat include the option of cursing at one another?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

Mr McGrath, the rise of populism in this particular case can certainly be blamed, not on Mr Trump, but on the paucity and corruption inherent in the US political system.

In Europe the same populist movements have appeared mainly due to the failings of the EC.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:26 PM

Do not delude yourself that Trump's brand of populism is all that widespread. If Trump were running as an independent against Clinton and a more mainstream Republican (like Paul Ryan), he wouldn't get 20% of the vote. At least half of Republicans who will be voting for him will be doing so because they despise Clinton, not because they love Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM

Sorry Ebbie, I did respond to your last post, but my response seems to have vanished......spooky.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:09 PM

Failings of the economic and political sstem obviously generates anger and resentment, as an alternative to despair, or alongside it. Call that populism, but it can be channeled in very different ways.

There's a big difference between Spain's Podemos and France's Front National, or the nationalism of Nicola Sturgeon and Nigel Farage.

Trump's populism is in the tradition of the rightwing populists in Europe in the 30s, or the American Know Nothing movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:48 PM

Know Nothings, indeed. What about Mugwumps?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:08 PM

No, Keberoxu; the Mugwumps seem to be absent from this election cycle. Traditionally, they are the faction that refuse to make any decision, remaining perched on the fence with their mug on one side and their wump on the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:48 PM

Apparently, Trump bombed epically at the Al Smith dinner. He got booed at an event where people don't get booed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:20 AM

I also suggest Mr McGrath, that the rise of populism all over Western society is in answer to decades of "liberalism" and political correctness, where people are being herded into an ideology where there is no right and wrong.....where there is an excuse for any kind of social behaviour, where venal politicians and muck raking journalists set the agenda.

Most people like to have basic rules in society.....the new ideology attacks everything which demands a degree of personal responsibility, traditions are trampled over.....rights are available, but only the rights which have been approved by the leaders of the new order(the Pigs).
Try defending your right to practice Christianity on internet forums, you will be painted as degenerate.
Try offering alternatives to the huge societal changes which are taking place......"populism" is in many cases a defence against the Fascism of the media and the political elite.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 05:58 AM

Trump gave us a good example of what unpresidential looks like at the Al Smith dinner last night but I thought the funniest moment was when HRC served up a couple of zingers to Giuliani who just sat there like an old sour puss while everyone else had a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:47 AM

Recap of last debate, with smoke, wind machine, and autotune

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:48 PM

I wouldn't quarrel with quite a lot of what aken wrote there. But not with the suggestion populism is a defence against the fascism of the mass media. The mass media is the mother of fascism, and of the essentially fascist distortion of populism represented at this time byTrump, and before him by others who have played thesame game.

It's striking how similar Trump's story is to Berlusconi, and indeed to Mussolini before him. Both populists, but their populism was one which might have seemed to shake up society, but did so in suchaway that power disrrubution was undistured, and wealth inequalities were reinforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:16 PM

On BBC Newsnight tonight, US feminist Camille Paglia states that Mrs Clinton "is certainly one of the most incompetent and corrupt politicians of our time, and almost solely responsible for the destabilisation of North Africa".
"The very little that she has achieved in her career has been on the coat tails of her husband"

Camille must have been reading my mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

No, but she apparently has your respect for fact and reality, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:35 PM

"Your stance seems to be purely feminist and that is not a good way to decide who is to be the next president of the US."

Well, dammit, Acme and meself have had our moments, but this is one of the most stupidly offensive and patronising comments I've seen here for months, which is saying something.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:36 PM

You obviously have not been concentrating Steve, try reading the threads before illustrating your ignorance.
I have a very good reason for stating that Acme views the coming election from a mainly feminist perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM

And that very good reason is?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 08:41 PM

In the words of the slogan a few years back when France faced a similar choice, with le Pen senior versus Chirac "Vote for the Crook, not the Fascist."

Here again are the quotes I gave from a recent interview Bernie Sanders gave:

"I think from a practical point of view, I would hope that all those people who worked with me on this campaign, who supported me, understand that Donald Trump would be a real, real, real disaster for this country."

"On the other hand, the day after the election, we don't sit back and say, 'well Clinton is president'," he added. "What we do is mobilize our people to make certain that hopefully President Clinton and hopefully a Democratic Senate moves forward with an agenda that helps transform his country."

"We are going to be introducing legislation piece by piece on trade, on raising the minimum wage, on making public colleges and universities tuition free on a medicare for all, on rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure"

"This is not trust, we're not here to trust," he explained. "It is the very opposite of what I am saying."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 08:46 PM

You didn't say mainly feminist. You said purely feminist, and you intended it to be pejorative. You are back-pedalling. As a matter of fact, though please don't think I'm dignifying your stupidity by saying this, I think we could do with a bit more influence from feminism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:13 PM

Ake thinks he's being insulting to accuse me of being a feminist. He's being foolish. I am TOTALLY a feminist. Have been all of my life. It isn't a pejorative, though he would like to make it one.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 03:39 AM

No Acme, I have nothing against feminism, In fact I am a huge admirer of Camille Paglia, who is a clear thinker.

What I do think is that basing ones selection of president purely on gender is not a very sensible thing to do. Women can be at least as fallible as men regarding political issues and levelling charges of misogyny against any who disagree with your views, borders on the hysterical.

I have no thought of insulting you for holding feminist views and if you perceive that intension, I apologise. I love to hear and debate all manner of views and try my best to do so in an impersonal and civil manner. In fact I am happy to inform the membership that you have been a great help to my wife and myself during her on going illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:50 AM

Hmm. Well, in order to just check that I haven't finally gone insane, let me make the following observations. This election is between Trump and Clinton. Some crazy people are going to be voting for Trump. A much bigger number of less crazy people are, in large part reluctantly I should think, going to be voting for Clinton. If I were in the US I would be voting for Clinton. In doing so, the very last thing on my mind would be the fact that she is a woman. It would be very good to have a first woman president and I endorse that sentiment. But in making up my mind which way to vote, her gender would comprise approximately 0.05% of my considerations. And it's a good bet that the majority of people who vote for her would be with me on that, though that percentage would vary. I suspect that few people are going to be voting for her "purely on gender." Of course, in so-called democracies you can't stop people doing that, any more than you can stop people voting for Trump because he has nice hair. But if akenaton thinks it's a major issue, well he'd better have some facts and figures to hand. The cautionary note for us Brits would be that we have had two women prime ministers, both of them terrible. But we've had far more men prime ministers who have been just as terrible. Having more women at the top in politics would be a good thing, but, top priority when you look at the kind of people we keep getting, we need more good people at the top in politics. Men or women.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 08:17 AM

It's impossible to say how big a factor Mrs. Clinton's gender has been in this election cycle. To do that, one would have to compare her performance with that of a male candidate of similar political philosophy and credentials. Bernie Sanders, her only serious primary opponent, was an outsider who represented a very different philosophy. Her general election opponent is the worst candidate in the history of US politics. If a mainstream male Democrat like John Kerry or Joe Biden had run against her in the primaries, or if the Republican nominee were a human being, instead of Donald Trump, maybe the importance of her gender would be more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 10:52 AM

Or, to use a bit of an analogy, if you compare a female Labrador Retriever with a male Labrador Retriever, you can chalk up most differences to gender. But if you compare a female Labrador Retriever with a male weasel, gender has very little do do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 11:25 AM

basing ones selection of president purely on gender is not a very sensible thing to do

But basing it on ignorance, fantasy, lies, wishful thinking and crackpot theories as you and The Trumpists do IS?

And BWL, you owe a sincere apology to the mustelidae.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

And the cockroaches take to the streets!!!

***

Jared Halbrook, 25, of Green Bay, Wis., said that if Mr. Trump lost to Hillary Clinton, which he worried would happen through a stolen election, it could lead to "another Revolutionary War."

"People are going to march on the capitols," said Mr. Halbrook, who works at a call center. "They're going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there." "If push comes to shove," he added, and Mrs. Clinton "has to go by any means necessary, it will be done."

****

Mr. Swick, by his own estimation, also owns "north of 30 guns," and he said Mrs. Clinton would have trouble if she tried to confiscate the nation's constitutionally protected weapons. (Mrs. Clinton has said she supports the Second Amendment, but she favors certain restrictions, like tighter background checks for gun buyers.)

"If she comes after the guns, it's going to be a rough, bumpy road," Mr. Swick said. "I hope to God I never have to fire a round, but I won't hesitate to. As a Christian, I want reformation. But sometimes reformation comes through bloodshed."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/politics/donald-trump-voters.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

From the same New York Times article:

"You go through any neighborhood and see how many Trump signs there are and how many Hillary signs there are, and I guarantee you it's not even going to be close," said Bill Stelling, 44, of Jacksonville, Fla. "The only way they've done it is by rigging the election."

I would suggest to Mr. Stelling that it's more a case of Clinton supporters being cautious about overt displays of support for fear of Trumpers' reactions. Nobody wants their house burned down for the sake of a yard sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 03:54 PM

So the US political establishment is not corrupt?
Ever heard of "
Common Good"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 06:13 PM

And, yet another perspective 

"WHO will uphold the torch of openness in the West? Not America's next president. Donald Trump, the grievance-mongering Republican nominee, would build a wall on Mexico's border and rip up trade agreements. Hillary Clinton, the probable winner on November 8th, would be much better on immigration, but she has renounced her former support for ambitious trade deals. Britain, worried about immigrants and globalisation, has voted to march out of the European Union. Angela Merkel flung open Germany's doors to refugees, then suffered a series of political setbacks. Marine Le Pen, a right-wing populist, is the favourite to win the first round of France's presidential election next year."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:01 PM

I imagine the fact that Hillary is a woman is one major reason a number of people will be voting for Trump.

It works both ways I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:33 PM

McGrath, I'm sure "a number of people" won't vote for Hillary simply or largely just because she is a woman, but all the thoughts and reactions I'm hearing first hand indicate to me that it will be so small a number as to be of little or no significance. I do think she will gain substantially more "gender card" votes than she will lose. {And please, I'm not meaning to imply that women will, wholesale, be voting for gender; certainly not with the comparison between these candidates).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:52 PM

That crap Ake posted is a bunch of statements but there isn't a straight line between any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

FBI reopen the Clinton e mail enquiry.


Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:39 PM

Pussy Riot's video "Make America Great Again".

It's rude, but personally, I'm more offended by Trump than a music video.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lanfranc
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 06:41 PM

As Paul Simon wrote many years ago, "Every way you look at this you lose". We're it not for my atheist proclivities I would say "God help us". IMHO neither Trump nor Clinton is worthy of the mantle of Lincoln and Jefferson. In a world where we need giants all we get on both sides of the pond is pygmies.

When our grandchildren end up paying jizya it will be too late to regret the media bias and inadequate self-serving and/or deluded politicians who negated 1400 years of progress. I'm glad I'm 70 and not 17.

But I'm only an aged Brit, what do I know?

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

Lanfranc,
I believe it takes a 70 year old atheist to carry the mantle of moral authority with a foundation of wisdom based on history to teach candidate's and the public that domestic and foreign policy are separate from nasty bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

We need neither giants nor pigmies. Well-educated people don't need to be led by the nose. I doubt very much that either Jefferson or Lincoln were actually that great, though, of course, distance lends enchantment to the view. We can't hold our leaders to account because our system deliberately keeps us ignorant about politics (it would far sooner spend huge amounts of time telling us what to believe about irrelevancies such as God, etc.). The key to democracy is not to select charismatic leaders. If history has taught us anything at all, it's that. Instead, it's to have a well-educated, involved and vigilant electorate. Exactly what the current political systems in our countries are frightened to death of. That's why we have Tories in power and why Trump has any supporters at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:38 PM

Pygmies, damn you, spellchecker.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

Don't worry to much about the spelling Steve, concentrate a little more on the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:22 AM

I need your advice like I need a hole in the head, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:51 AM

"We need neither giants not pigmies" You're being a bit sizeist there, Steve, whatever way you spell pygmies. All sizes are needed.
.....................
I've just been watching Michael Moore's latest opus, "Michael Moore in Trumpland". It's basically an hour or so of him on stage rapping about Hillary and Donald and stuff. Right now it's available on YouTube. Amazing man. (No, he doesn't appeal to everyone, but then there are benighted souls who don't appreciate Marmite, there's no accounting for tastes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

Well that's the long and short of it I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:26 PM

For UK Catters, I've just noticed that "Michael Moore in Trumpland" is on Channel 4 at 10pm tonight (Saturday).

I see Trump has tried sticking out ads with a chunk of the film where Michael is imagining how great pissed off workers might feel when voting for Trump, and why they might feel that way. Leaving out the next bit where he goes on about how bad they will feel if he gets elected and they rapidly find out all his promises have been lies, because that's what he does.

Big mistake, since the ads are only too liable to steer people seing them into looking at the film itself.

But I imagine Trump may be assuming his voters are too stupid to realise that they can do that. Even bigger mistake - just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:38 PM

I heard Mr Moore being interviewed by Andrew Neil and Portillo on BBC TV.....I was amazed at his lack of knowledge regarding the situation in Syria and politics in general.

The guy is a hot air balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:01 PM

But surely anyone with the least regard for Trump has to have a degree of partiality to hot air ballons.

Anyone who claims to have a real understanding and adequate knowledge of the situation in Syria has to be regarded as deluded. I think I missed the interview you mentioned aken, but I doubt very much if Michael Moore would have claimed to having those things, though I can perhaps imagine the other two doing so. Claiming I mean, not having.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

I see they've switched Michael Moore on Chennel 4 to 11pm Maybe they got confused, what with the clocks going back one hour tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:10 PM

Although I had no time for Mr Portillo's policies, I doubt that anyone could questions his intelligence.
I listen to radio quite a bit and follow his contributions on "The Moral Maze"
Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:30 PM

"Equanimity?" 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

I didn't say either Neill or Portillo were stupid, which would b a stupid thing to say. I said I'd not be surprised if they might think they knew more about the Syria situation than they actually do. A good few clever people seem to delude themselves that way. After all, unless I'm very much mistaken, both those people backed the Iraq War at the time. (Which Michael Moore did not - much more unpopular position in tye States than it was in the UK.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:53 PM

just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Thjey don't HAVE to be, Kevin, but most of the Trumpists most assuredly ARE.

Don't forget that Trump "loves the poorly educated" (direct quote) and they love him as well.

God Help AmweriKKKa.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:05 PM

"Equanimity"............"mental or emotional stability or composure, especially under tension or strain; calmness; equilibrium."

I think Mr Neil is an extremely good and composed interviewer, even when tackling the most difficult "subjects"

Wouldn't IT BE EASIER FOR YOU JUST TO BUY A DICTIONARY?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

"Poorly educated" doesn't mean stupid. No more than poorly fed or poorly dressed or poorly housed. All things which are true of a lot of people who are expected to be likely to vote for Trump from what I have read and seen.

And they won't be doing so because they are stupid but for the kind of reasons Michael Moore eloquently explained in that film. They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned, and angry and desperate to do something to get back at the system that has betrayed and abandoned them.

And true enough there are also a lot of people who don't fall into that category who are also planning to vote for Trump for very different and much nastier reasons. Which is what Hillary Clinton presumably meant when she made that ill-advised crack about half of the Trump supporters as being "deplorables". Ill advised, but accurate.

But "stupid" is a pointless insult to throw around in politics. Stupid people are just as likely to be on the right side as clever people, and clever people are just as likely to be on the wrong side as clever people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

Nice post Mr McGrath, but it you believe sections of society have been abandoned by a corrupt political system, why vote for a continuation of establishment politics?

I'm sure that you agree foreign policy is at the present time of the utmost importance.

Mr Trump speaks of drawing closer to the other major world powers in an attempt to stamp out terrorism, especially the obscene scourge of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Mrs Clinton advises a return to the blame game and Cold War threats

Our society is about to change and our political system must also change.....the West no longer controls the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

"Poorly educated" obviously doesn't mean stupid, but it can very well mean illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed.

Trump loves the "poorly educated."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

"Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings."

That's what you said. You clearly meant "equally," "fairly," "in the same way" or "even-handedly." You misused "equanimity." That much is certain. I care not a jot, to be honest (which is more than what you're being), and it's entertaining to watch you try to wriggle out of it, but I would be obliged if you could refrain from trying to belittle me while you're at at.

Actually, I care not a jot about that, either, come to think of it, as it's you. Isn't life amusing?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:46 AM

Lighter....That description could just as easily be levelled at supporters of Mrs Clinton...given her record in office.

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Why on earth would I misuse the word Steve, you are the one who habitually does that.

In the interview "equally" would have been completely out of place as there was only one interviewee?
Don't even think about telling me what I meant to say, you cannot even control your own posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:18 AM

"Mr Trump speaks of..."

Whatever Trump chooses to say in the course of the election campaign is only relevant if you believe him. The test for that is to look at what he has said at other times, and what he has done in the course of his life. And he doesn't pass that test.

I could let you have the Eiffel Tower for an incredibly low price, aken. How can you afford to turn down a bargain like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

But you were talking about interviewees generally...oh, never mind...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned,

Indeed they have been, Kevin - by rich buggers like Trump and the Republicrap Party which they are falling over each other to vote for so thay can be more effectively betrayed and abandoned yet again.

That's where the stupidity comes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

They've been betrayed and abandoned by the whole political establishment, Democrat every bit as much as Republican. There's no good result on offer in November. It's just that one of the outcomes is a great deal worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:55 AM

Democrat every bit as much as Republican

More of Ake's false equivalency, Kevin. I expected better.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

The trouble, the distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic. When the party grassroots erupt and pur Corbyn in place, the establishment gangs up to destroy him. The same for Bernie Sanders.

Voting for Clinton is marginally better than for Voting for Tony Blair, or George Bush, but margins matter. And Trump is something else.

Here is the most accurate portrayal of Trumpery I've seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

No, you're describing yourself, Ake, when it comes to the Democratic Party in general and Hillary Clinton in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:48 PM

If you base your choice simply on gender or imagine everyone who opposes your choice is a misogynist, you would certainly qualify as "illogical and dogmatic"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:03 PM

In fact it was pretty evident that those who would term themselves feminists in the US were on the whole more likely to be for Bernie Sanders than for Hillary Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic.

In the U.S. - NOT. You're falling into the Amenhotep Trap.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton (or Bill for that matter - best Moderate Republican president we've had in the last 50 years) but they're not representative of the core values of the Democratic Party.

Perhaps this current debacle will have the positive result - ably assisted by Bernie Sanders - of reminding the Dems what they historically stand for.

One can hope, anyway-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 PM

That's really the point I was making - as in the UK with the Labour Party, the core values of the Democratic Party do not appear to be the values of the those who front it and run the party machine. That was demonstrated by what happened in the primary campaign, with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

It's fascinating to imagine how the present contest would be working out if Sanders was the candidate. I Imagine Trump would have dropped his friend-of the-workers stuff, and be going all out as the defender of the American Way against this Commy. He'd probably have a lot more media support than he has against Clinton. I suspect he'd have more chance of winning too - and no need to offer phoney promises about upsetting the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:15 PM

I agree Mr McGrath, I have always said that Mr Sanders had more chance than Mrs Clinton of beating Mr Trump.....the early polls confirmed that and played into the disgust of the people towards the political establishment.

Unfortunately, for many reasons the media and the Democratic party conspired against Mr Sanders and people here who aught to know better were taken in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:33 PM

with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

That's just practicality and realpolitik, Kevin. While I fervently wish it were otherwise, in the U.S, Sanders had no chance whatsoever of winning the election with the "socialist" albatross around his neck, and President Trumpshit is too horrible an eventuality to be thought of.

Now, why "socialist" shouldbe the kiss of death ( Eugene Debs from my home town never did better than 6% of the popular vote) is a whole other question, but it is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

And as usual, Ake is apparently living somewhere in a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:14 PM

The polls did actually suggest that Sanders stood up better against Trump than Clinton. But I suspect in the actual campaign the media demonisation of him would have kicked, much the same way as it has against Corbyn.

Still, what with Pussgate and all Sanders might have made it. Probably the only chance of a socialist president they'll have. Though making any headway against Congress would have beenn pretty unlikely. As it is, with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a mocement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:16 PM

with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a movement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Niow you're talking sense!!! ( Whatever nonsense Ake may come up with.)

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:53 AM

Unfortunately it looks to me that Mr Sanders will be given a token job in a Clinton administration and will be bound to silence.

"Money doesn't talk.... it swears." RZ

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

"Silenced"?? Looks to your fevered imagination, you mean, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:23 PM

Trump, golf, Scotland and lawsuits

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:17 PM

"It looks to me" means "I predict"   We'll see. It could well be he might be offered a job, and it might be he'd take it, and use it. But silenced and coopted? I doubt it. Aside from everything else, what's he got to gain by turning into a tame hamster?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:24 PM

I suspect Buddha could likely beat Trump, as could Abe Lincoln.
But, none of these folks are in the current USA vote, and neither is Bernie.
Case closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:43 AM

The main point to come out of Mr Sanders defeat.....or capitulation, was the corruption at the heart of the Democratic party.

That in itself would stop me voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM

Regardless of world wide perspectives/opinions/personal preferences, only USA citizens actually get to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM

And not all them are allowed to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM

Michael Moore: Donald Trump will win the election, and it'll be a big 'f--- you' from voters

Paul Schrodt,
Published 9:46 am, Wednesday, October 26, 2016



Michael Moore has argued since the summer that he thinks Donald Trump will win the 2016 presidential election, and his stance hasn't changed.

The Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker has a new movie out, "Michael Moore in TrumpLand," in which he essentially makes an argument for why people, especially those on the fence, should vote for Hillary Clinton instead of the Republican nominee.

Despite that case and polling that suggests Trump has lost ground to Clinton in the race, Moore told an audience at a recent "TrumpLand" event that he believes Trump will win largely because of how the middle and working classes in America feel at the moment.

"I know a lot of people in Michigan that are planning to vote for Trump, and they don't necessarily agree with him," Moore said, according to Salon.

Whether voters agree with Trump, or if he would deliver on promises to them, Moore says he believes they'll choose the real-estate mogul on Election Day to send a signal to elites in the country about the state of government.

"Trump's election is going to be the biggest 'f--- you' ever recorded in human history — and it will feel good," Moore said.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:11 AM

Obviouisly you don't have a clue where Moore is coming from, do you Beardie?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 11:47 AM

Obviously you do not have a clue, GregtrF.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM

USA Felons, state by state restrictions 

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:11 PM

Michael Moore has warned that Trump is quite likely to win. In his movie Trumpland, which can be seen on youTube, he explains why a lot of decent people are likely to vote for him, and deeply regret doing so when they find out what the reality of a Trump presidency actually means.

Well worth watching the film, which is Michael Moore's desperate attempt to prevent the nightmare he sees coming.

Trump is a conman, and conmen often succeed in conning people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:26 PM

McGrath,

Yes, but when I said the same thing GregtrF calls it BS.... A pity that he is now the "offical MUDCAT Voice of the Left"

Makes the rest of you look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM

why a lot of decent people are likely to vote for him

Contradiction in terms.

Were they indeed "decent people" with any regard for facts or for the inevitable consequences thereof, they would NOT vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:55 PM

I think Michael Moore very effectively explains why there will be decent people voting for Trump. It comes out of desperation and justifiable anger.

That often makes people do objectively stupid things. It's a reason why adolescents go in for cutting themselves, and why many people of all ages drink and drug themselves into a stupor. "Without any regard for facts or the inevitable consequences thereof."

There's a horrifying hangover and worse up ahead for such voters if Trump wins. But of course, it won't just be them who'll suffer. Nor will it just be Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:59 PM

What absolute bullshit!   I don't agree with the guy's domestic politics, but he has come through a gruelling primary campaign in spite of the Republican establishment trying to undermine him and the "liberal" media campaign of digging up historic character flaws.

OK he says things the "liberal left" don't like but that does not make him a monster or an abuser like previous US presidents.
The fact that he is still there with a chance of winning against the whole of the corrupt US political establishment demands a degree of respect even from the most undemocratic and ideologically driven among us.

Should we also kill him because we think he's a "bad man", like Saddam and Gadhafi?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:02 PM

Jesus, Ake, are you really tht much of a idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:22 PM

Sorry, cross posted Mr McGrath, but what particular "horrific hangover" do you have in mind should Mr Trump be elected president?
In foreign affairs, war is more likely under a Clinton administration because of her bellicose attitude to Mr Putin and Russia.
Mr Trump favours co-operation amongst world powers to defeat terrorism. Mr Trump, should he win will not govern in isolation......remember how Mrs Clinton moulded President Obama's distorted legacy?
Somehow I think it is unlikely that Mr Trump will appoint a Trojan Horse!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:26 PM

Greg, I am no more an idiot than you are, or Bruce or Mr McGrath.
We just have differences of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM

Donald Trump has talked about using the nuclear weapons America has. There is no reason whatsoever to think he is less likely to bring about war. There's absolutely no point in quoting anything he says, because he has said just about anything.

I'm afraid I'd far sooner rely on the judgement of Noam Chomsky and Bernie Sanders. (and Michael Moore for that matter) about such matters than on yours, aken.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 06:09 PM

In foreign affairs, war is more likely under a Clinton administration

Ake,

only

in

your

farkin'

dreams (delusions)

Now, join up with BullshitBruce and y'all can get a few more useful threads closed by the mods (or perhaps the rockers).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:49 AM

"Sorry, cross posted Mr McGrath, but what particular "horrific hangover" do you have in mind should Mr Trump be elected president?"

The fact he will be in court accused of child rape in December? Has that ever happened to a President elect?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 12:44 PM

Where did you hear that Stu, and who accused him of such a thing?

There is nothing on Google and its very dangerous to make up stories like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:52 PM

Not difficult to find on DuckDuckGo.

Court case discussion with legal papers

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:25 PM

Well I Googled "Trump rape december" and got a lot of results including https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/12/donald-trump-jeffrey-epstein-alleged-rape-lawsuit

So Google did find it quite easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:45 PM

Do not attemot to confuse Ake with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:54 PM

It's an allegation rather than a conviction - but of course that wouldn't be a distinction Trump supporters give any weight to when it comes to Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:41 PM

Good to see you're paying attention Ake. Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:03 PM

It's an allegation rather than a conviction - but of course that wouldn't be a distinction Trump supporters

That's the advantage [?] of living in a fact-free, logic-antithetical universe.

vide Bearded-BS-Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:59 PM

As if Hillary supporters are not just as likely to think the worst of trump. Blinkered all round I reckon !

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:44 PM

I don't think it's only Hillary supporters who are likely to think the worst of Trump. From what I've read there are a lot of Trump supporters who do as well, but aren't too worried by that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:52 PM

And as opposed to the fanatical Hillary Haters (and I am no fan of Hillary) there are perfectly logical REASONS based on FACTS to think the worst of Trump, as he's a proven piece of shit many times over.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:00 PM

the good old days?

Just saying...............

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 09:56 PM

The Independent has just reported that the woman who claims Trump raped her at a party back in 1994 when she was 13 has cancelled her first public appearance at a press conference sceduled today. Her lawyer said that this was because she was terrified because of "terrible threats".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:19 AM

Can there FBI really afford to invest $1000s of dollars in investigating Clintons e-mails or is it being financed from elsewhere`?    Just askin'

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:54 AM

Leaving aside the details of the rape accusation for the moment, it does seem to me to be incredibly difficult to ensure a fair trial. Even if the trial (when it comes) is actually fair, how you convince such a divided electorate that is was fair is, to say the least, challenging. As that applies whatever the decision, or if the case is settled before it goes to trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 10:50 AM

5 Reasons to Vote Trump

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 11:01 AM

I'd LOL, Greg, if that orange-headed buffoon weren't so close to becoming Groper in Chief.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:40 PM

"Yes I can!"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:42 PM

And The Cockroaches Prepare

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:44 PM

Greg you finally convinced me to go with Trump.

Bob Roberts is so similar you should see the movie by the same name

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:57 PM

Donnie Get Your Gun.....

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:15 AM

As fire fighters say you have to fight Trump with Trump.
Basically we are dealing with the world's largest, most self adoring, ontological single cell life form that grows a little larger with every lie he repeats.


WHAT HAS THE MEDIA WANTED FROM TRUMP?

ratings


WHAT WAS MISSING FROM ALL COVERAGE?

A single question posed to Trump about American & World History. Arithmetic, the Constitution, the 'four' branches of government, Jesus and what is the difference between the 3rd Reich and Putinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 02:03 PM

Innuendo Politics:

It is not so much that Trump may have had a heart attack, suffice it say that he has popped his cardiac cherry.

There is not that much distance between Trump and the Republican party.
He has the useful imaginative recall of Reagan, the finality of Nelson Rockefeller's last hurrah and boldly goes where Goldwater did not.

Trump's inner child has grown an outer man able to withstand the bullying torment of outstanding leaders&sadists at military school.


Detached retinas, voyeurism and compulsive grabbing ...er gambling should not deny anyone the Presidency of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 07:55 PM

Abe Lincoln Brought Up To Date:

I am not a Trumpist – that is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Trumpists get control, it will read 'all men are created equals, except negroes and foreigners and Catholics and Mexicans and Muslims.' When it comes to that I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:15 PM

IF Trump wins and IF he goes through with his threat to ignore commitments to addressing climate change, the the rest of the world must immediate commit to zero use of non renewable energy to offset the increase in US carbon foot print.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 02:07 AM

We are fooked.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 04:21 AM

America's 11-9
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:50 AM

Trump International may get sued for corporate voyeurism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-38407005