BS: Trump again

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

Well that's the long and short of it I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:26 PM

For UK Catters, I've just noticed that "Michael Moore in Trumpland" is on Channel 4 at 10pm tonight (Saturday).

I see Trump has tried sticking out ads with a chunk of the film where Michael is imagining how great pissed off workers might feel when voting for Trump, and why they might feel that way. Leaving out the next bit where he goes on about how bad they will feel if he gets elected and they rapidly find out all his promises have been lies, because that's what he does.

Big mistake, since the ads are only too liable to steer people seing them into looking at the film itself.

But I imagine Trump may be assuming his voters are too stupid to realise that they can do that. Even bigger mistake - just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:38 PM

I heard Mr Moore being interviewed by Andrew Neil and Portillo on BBC TV.....I was amazed at his lack of knowledge regarding the situation in Syria and politics in general.

The guy is a hot air balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:01 PM

But surely anyone with the least regard for Trump has to have a degree of partiality to hot air ballons.

Anyone who claims to have a real understanding and adequate knowledge of the situation in Syria has to be regarded as deluded. I think I missed the interview you mentioned aken, but I doubt very much if Michael Moore would have claimed to having those things, though I can perhaps imagine the other two doing so. Claiming I mean, not having.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

I see they've switched Michael Moore on Chennel 4 to 11pm Maybe they got confused, what with the clocks going back one hour tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:10 PM

Although I had no time for Mr Portillo's policies, I doubt that anyone could questions his intelligence.
I listen to radio quite a bit and follow his contributions on "The Moral Maze"
Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:30 PM

"Equanimity?" 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

I didn't say either Neill or Portillo were stupid, which would b a stupid thing to say. I said I'd not be surprised if they might think they knew more about the Syria situation than they actually do. A good few clever people seem to delude themselves that way. After all, unless I'm very much mistaken, both those people backed the Iraq War at the time. (Which Michael Moore did not - much more unpopular position in tye States than it was in the UK.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:53 PM

just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Thjey don't HAVE to be, Kevin, but most of the Trumpists most assuredly ARE.

Don't forget that Trump "loves the poorly educated" (direct quote) and they love him as well.

God Help AmweriKKKa.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:05 PM

"Equanimity"............"mental or emotional stability or composure, especially under tension or strain; calmness; equilibrium."

I think Mr Neil is an extremely good and composed interviewer, even when tackling the most difficult "subjects"

Wouldn't IT BE EASIER FOR YOU JUST TO BUY A DICTIONARY?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

"Poorly educated" doesn't mean stupid. No more than poorly fed or poorly dressed or poorly housed. All things which are true of a lot of people who are expected to be likely to vote for Trump from what I have read and seen.

And they won't be doing so because they are stupid but for the kind of reasons Michael Moore eloquently explained in that film. They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned, and angry and desperate to do something to get back at the system that has betrayed and abandoned them.

And true enough there are also a lot of people who don't fall into that category who are also planning to vote for Trump for very different and much nastier reasons. Which is what Hillary Clinton presumably meant when she made that ill-advised crack about half of the Trump supporters as being "deplorables". Ill advised, but accurate.

But "stupid" is a pointless insult to throw around in politics. Stupid people are just as likely to be on the right side as clever people, and clever people are just as likely to be on the wrong side as clever people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

Nice post Mr McGrath, but it you believe sections of society have been abandoned by a corrupt political system, why vote for a continuation of establishment politics?

I'm sure that you agree foreign policy is at the present time of the utmost importance.

Mr Trump speaks of drawing closer to the other major world powers in an attempt to stamp out terrorism, especially the obscene scourge of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Mrs Clinton advises a return to the blame game and Cold War threats

Our society is about to change and our political system must also change.....the West no longer controls the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

"Poorly educated" obviously doesn't mean stupid, but it can very well mean illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed.

Trump loves the "poorly educated."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

"Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings."

That's what you said. You clearly meant "equally," "fairly," "in the same way" or "even-handedly." You misused "equanimity." That much is certain. I care not a jot, to be honest (which is more than what you're being), and it's entertaining to watch you try to wriggle out of it, but I would be obliged if you could refrain from trying to belittle me while you're at at.

Actually, I care not a jot about that, either, come to think of it, as it's you. Isn't life amusing?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:46 AM

Lighter....That description could just as easily be levelled at supporters of Mrs Clinton...given her record in office.

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Why on earth would I misuse the word Steve, you are the one who habitually does that.

In the interview "equally" would have been completely out of place as there was only one interviewee?
Don't even think about telling me what I meant to say, you cannot even control your own posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:18 AM

"Mr Trump speaks of..."

Whatever Trump chooses to say in the course of the election campaign is only relevant if you believe him. The test for that is to look at what he has said at other times, and what he has done in the course of his life. And he doesn't pass that test.

I could let you have the Eiffel Tower for an incredibly low price, aken. How can you afford to turn down a bargain like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

But you were talking about interviewees generally...oh, never mind...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned,

Indeed they have been, Kevin - by rich buggers like Trump and the Republicrap Party which they are falling over each other to vote for so thay can be more effectively betrayed and abandoned yet again.

That's where the stupidity comes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

They've been betrayed and abandoned by the whole political establishment, Democrat every bit as much as Republican. There's no good result on offer in November. It's just that one of the outcomes is a great deal worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:55 AM

Democrat every bit as much as Republican

More of Ake's false equivalency, Kevin. I expected better.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

The trouble, the distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic. When the party grassroots erupt and pur Corbyn in place, the establishment gangs up to destroy him. The same for Bernie Sanders.

Voting for Clinton is marginally better than for Voting for Tony Blair, or George Bush, but margins matter. And Trump is something else.

Here is the most accurate portrayal of Trumpery I've seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

No, you're describing yourself, Ake, when it comes to the Democratic Party in general and Hillary Clinton in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:48 PM

If you base your choice simply on gender or imagine everyone who opposes your choice is a misogynist, you would certainly qualify as "illogical and dogmatic"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:03 PM

In fact it was pretty evident that those who would term themselves feminists in the US were on the whole more likely to be for Bernie Sanders than for Hillary Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic.

In the U.S. - NOT. You're falling into the Amenhotep Trap.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton (or Bill for that matter - best Moderate Republican president we've had in the last 50 years) but they're not representative of the core values of the Democratic Party.

Perhaps this current debacle will have the positive result - ably assisted by Bernie Sanders - of reminding the Dems what they historically stand for.

One can hope, anyway-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 PM

That's really the point I was making - as in the UK with the Labour Party, the core values of the Democratic Party do not appear to be the values of the those who front it and run the party machine. That was demonstrated by what happened in the primary campaign, with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

It's fascinating to imagine how the present contest would be working out if Sanders was the candidate. I Imagine Trump would have dropped his friend-of the-workers stuff, and be going all out as the defender of the American Way against this Commy. He'd probably have a lot more media support than he has against Clinton. I suspect he'd have more chance of winning too - and no need to offer phoney promises about upsetting the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:15 PM

I agree Mr McGrath, I have always said that Mr Sanders had more chance than Mrs Clinton of beating Mr Trump.....the early polls confirmed that and played into the disgust of the people towards the political establishment.

Unfortunately, for many reasons the media and the Democratic party conspired against Mr Sanders and people here who aught to know better were taken in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:33 PM

with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

That's just practicality and realpolitik, Kevin. While I fervently wish it were otherwise, in the U.S, Sanders had no chance whatsoever of winning the election with the "socialist" albatross around his neck, and President Trumpshit is too horrible an eventuality to be thought of.

Now, why "socialist" shouldbe the kiss of death ( Eugene Debs from my home town never did better than 6% of the popular vote) is a whole other question, but it is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

And as usual, Ake is apparently living somewhere in a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:14 PM

The polls did actually suggest that Sanders stood up better against Trump than Clinton. But I suspect in the actual campaign the media demonisation of him would have kicked, much the same way as it has against Corbyn.

Still, what with Pussgate and all Sanders might have made it. Probably the only chance of a socialist president they'll have. Though making any headway against Congress would have beenn pretty unlikely. As it is, with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a mocement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:16 PM

with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a movement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Niow you're talking sense!!! ( Whatever nonsense Ake may come up with.)

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:53 AM

Unfortunately it looks to me that Mr Sanders will be given a token job in a Clinton administration and will be bound to silence.

"Money doesn't talk.... it swears." RZ

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

"Silenced"?? Looks to your fevered imagination, you mean, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:23 PM

Trump, golf, Scotland and lawsuits

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:17 PM

"It looks to me" means "I predict"   We'll see. It could well be he might be offered a job, and it might be he'd take it, and use it. But silenced and coopted? I doubt it. Aside from everything else, what's he got to gain by turning into a tame hamster?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:24 PM

I suspect Buddha could likely beat Trump, as could Abe Lincoln.
But, none of these folks are in the current USA vote, and neither is Bernie.
Case closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:43 AM

The main point to come out of Mr Sanders defeat.....or capitulation, was the corruption at the heart of the Democratic party.

That in itself would stop me voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM

Regardless of world wide perspectives/opinions/personal preferences, only USA citizens actually get to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM

And not all them are allowed to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM

Michael Moore: Donald Trump will win the election, and it'll be a big 'f--- you' from voters

Paul Schrodt,
Published 9:46 am, Wednesday, October 26, 2016



Michael Moore has argued since the summer that he thinks Donald Trump will win the 2016 presidential election, and his stance hasn't changed.

The Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker has a new movie out, "Michael Moore in TrumpLand," in which he essentially makes an argument for why people, especially those on the fence, should vote for Hillary Clinton instead of the Republican nominee.

Despite that case and polling that suggests Trump has lost ground to Clinton in the race, Moore told an audience at a recent "TrumpLand" event that he believes Trump will win largely because of how the middle and working classes in America feel at the moment.

"I know a lot of people in Michigan that are planning to vote for Trump, and they don't necessarily agree with him," Moore said, according to Salon.

Whether voters agree with Trump, or if he would deliver on promises to them, Moore says he believes they'll choose the real-estate mogul on Election Day to send a signal to elites in the country about the state of government.

"Trump's election is going to be the biggest 'f--- you' ever recorded in human history — and it will feel good," Moore said.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:11 AM

Obviouisly you don't have a clue where Moore is coming from, do you Beardie?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 11:47 AM

Obviously you do not have a clue, GregtrF.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM

USA Felons, state by state restrictions 

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:11 PM

Michael Moore has warned that Trump is quite likely to win. In his movie Trumpland, which can be seen on youTube, he explains why a lot of decent people are likely to vote for him, and deeply regret doing so when they find out what the reality of a Trump presidency actually means.

Well worth watching the film, which is Michael Moore's desperate attempt to prevent the nightmare he sees coming.

Trump is a conman, and conmen often succeed in conning people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:26 PM

McGrath,

Yes, but when I said the same thing GregtrF calls it BS.... A pity that he is now the "offical MUDCAT Voice of the Left"

Makes the rest of you look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM

why a lot of decent people are likely to vote for him

Contradiction in terms.

Were they indeed "decent people" with any regard for facts or for the inevitable consequences thereof, they would NOT vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:55 PM

I think Michael Moore very effectively explains why there will be decent people voting for Trump. It comes out of desperation and justifiable anger.

That often makes people do objectively stupid things. It's a reason why adolescents go in for cutting themselves, and why many people of all ages drink and drug themselves into a stupor. "Without any regard for facts or the inevitable consequences thereof."

There's a horrifying hangover and worse up ahead for such voters if Trump wins. But of course, it won't just be them who'll suffer. Nor will it just be Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:59 PM

What absolute bullshit!   I don't agree with the guy's domestic politics, but he has come through a gruelling primary campaign in spite of the Republican establishment trying to undermine him and the "liberal" media campaign of digging up historic character flaws.

OK he says things the "liberal left" don't like but that does not make him a monster or an abuser like previous US presidents.
The fact that he is still there with a chance of winning against the whole of the corrupt US political establishment demands a degree of respect even from the most undemocratic and ideologically driven among us.

Should we also kill him because we think he's a "bad man", like Saddam and Gadhafi?