BS: Labour party discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:01 PM

Jim, no eye witness is identified in that article as seeing that.
Once again you are using extreme propaganda sites.
They tell lies Jim.

Please find something on a reputable site, or identify the eye witness concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:16 PM

"Once again you are using extreme propaganda sites.
They tell lies Jim."
I deliberately linked you to the author of the bulldozers facts - just as you deliberately ignored it
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon. Lamb earned his Law Degree at Boston University and his LLM, M.Phil, and PhD degrees at the London School of Economics. Following three years at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Lamb was visiting fellow at the Harvard Law School's East Asian Legal Studies Center. Lamb is the author of Israel's 1982 War in Lebanon, International Legal Responsibility for the Sabra-Shatila Massacre, The Price We Pay. His latest book, The Case for Palestinian Civil Rights in Lebanon, is due out shortly (february 2014). Dr Lamb is a visiting Professor of International Law at the Faculty of Law, Damascus University and volunteers with the Sabra-Shatila Scholarship Program."
Now you go and find someone other than Israel or its supporters to prove it wrong.
AND ONCE MORE YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE ANOTHER ARTICLE - THIS TIME FROM THE ISRALI PAPER, HAARETZ
Further as promised
ETHNIC CLEANSING in ISRAEL
Keep it up, you're doing fine!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:17 PM

You agree with his rejection.

That's all what I said - the rest is from Chomsky.

Nice try though.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:21 PM

Bubo, best enroll in a review course in English composition, grammar, syntax and English comprehension. You apparently don't understand what you are saying/posting.

Oh, I understand it perfectly well, I also understand perfectly well what you are trying to do just like what you tried to do with associating me with Trump. You showed us what you are made of.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:22 PM

Bubo, grab a dictionary and look up "projection".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:47 PM

Smeg, I suggest you look up "smear" and "slander".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:16 PM

Bubo, one more time grab a dictionary and look up "projection".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 07:39 PM

"I agree with Chomsky's rejection of BDS which he bases on the grounds of it's support of UN General Assembly Resolution 194 and it's demand for recognition of the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality."

That's what you said. No demurring, no qualifying. You gave us the grounds on which you think he rejects BDS and your post clearly, clearly, CLEARLY means that you agree with those grounds. Otherwise you would have said you didn't, or you wouldn't have posted them at all. You are bang to rights. Tell us you made a mistake or failed to clarify and we'll drop it. As it stands, and if you don't back down, it makes you racist, no messing about. It means that you want to see Arab-Palestinians continue to be second-class citizens in Israel with no rights to equality. All your posts on Israel suggest to us that this is indeed the kind of sentiment you cling to. Calling us names is no way to go. A careful, calm clarification is what's needed, should your hubris allow. Let's see how you get on with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:01 PM

Well I haven't had all night, but as far as I can make out Chomsky is out of sympathy with the BDS movement on several grounds, though not all. Now you'd think from bobad's post, quoted by me just then, that Chomsky has abandoned any idea of a fair and equal society in Israel with Arab Palestinians enjoying equal rights. This is just not the case. He does think that BDS is not the right way to go in that regard. Now you wouldn't think that, would you, reading bobad's post. It's a dishonest post and it contains a monster slip-up in that he clearly casts himself as racist. If anyone can give me a quote from Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel, I'd be both interested and severely disappointed to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:58 PM

If anyone can give me a quote from Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel, I'd be both interested and severely disappointed to read it.

Just give Bubo or possibly CowFartBruce a bit of time, Steve, and they'll invent a quote for you out of whole cloth, gratis.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:03 PM

Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel

You seem to be having a problem with comprehension. No one has said that Chomsky doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel. It was stated that he rejects BDS because it has that as one of it's demands which he believes is untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:12 AM

Clear it up in a sentence. Just tell us that you believe in full equality for Arab Palestinians in Israel. Easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:01 AM

Bulldozers Jim? You have in the past provided "links" that put widely varying numbers of bulldozers being used (Think the highest number was something like 13 of them). Pretty high density of bulldozers considering the footprint of the Sabra-Shatila refugee camp in 1982 was something like one square kilometre.

That Franklin Lamb, is he the same one who said he was there but wasn't. You'll introduce the American Nurse next, you know the one who stated quite clearly that IDF troops dragged Palestinian and Lebanese doctors and nurses out of the hospital she was in, took them away and they were never seen again - yet at the end of the massacres carried out solely by Lebanese Christian Falangist Militia forces - ALL DOCTORS AND ALL NURSES in the hospital were unharmed and accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:17 AM

You are getting somewhat boring with your arrogance Teribus - at least you once used to be entertaining.
You have the facts - live with them or choke on them - your choice.
We are well aware that all these people are either liars and ignoramuses and that you have all the answers - you really are one of our unappreciated national treasures.
I well know what bulldozers are capable from personal experience - my father operated one for Wimpey's for the first twenty years of my life - he even tried (unsuccessfully) to teach me the basics once).
One of his jobs was to level out the dredgings from The Manchester Ship Canal and BURY the harder, larger stuff.
True - I wasn't there to see him do that, so it's quite possible he was lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

Jim,

I deliberately linked you to the author of the bulldozers facts -

He was not an eye witness and does not say who was.
Well known eye witnesses, the nurse, the doctor, Fisk the journalist, just saw the one bull dozer and no Israelis in the camp.

Remember that your propaganda sites lied to you about what Morris said.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:18 AM

Finishes with this as far as you pair of sickos are concerned Keith
Tou are doing for israel what Irving has done for Nazi Germany -the only difference is that he has had the nouse to fake his evidence whereas you just take the side of the perpetrator and deny anything that contradicts it.
Sabra Shatila was mass murder instigated and facilitated by the Israeli regime - end of story
WORST of JEWISH POGROMS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:45 AM

He was not an eye witness"
The only eye witnesses were those who were there
You and your friend has dismissed Jewish nurse, Ellen Shapiro as a liar, ignored all the eye witness statements and the Israeli soldiers' evidence, particularly thet which led to the making of "Waltz With Bashir"
The only evidence you are prepared to accept is from those faithful to the man who was indicted as being responsible and dismissed but later became Prime Minister
Or maybe you have a hot-line to the god you claim to believe in but who you show no signs of keeping his faith
Twisted or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:07 AM

Clear it up in a sentence. Just tell us that you believe in full equality for Arab Palestinians in Israel. Easy!

Arabs, as do all ethnic groups in Israel, have full equality so why would I not support it? That is the opposite of what is demanded for Jews by the BDS movement. Chomsky, like Finkelstein, must at least be given credit for recognizing the hypocrisy and anti-Semitism inherent in BDS which demands the right of return and equality for all Arabs in Israel knowing full well that the realization of their demands would mean the end of Israel.

To quote Norman Finkelstein:

"I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuousness. They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result? You know and I know what the result is. There's no Israel!"

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:57 AM

"Arabs, as do all ethnic groups in Israel, have full equality "
INEQUALITY REPORT
ETHNIC CLEANSING of BEDOUINS
DATABASE of 50 DISCRIMINATORY LAWS
"They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel"
How ******* unreasonable of them!!
"What Norman Finkelstein actually believes"
BDS says it's a nonviolent form of resistance, which is absolutely true, and it is not objectionable on those grounds. However, if the ends of BDS are seen as unjust, however nonviolent its means are, they will never get international support, it's never going to happen. Both the means and the ends have to be conceived by public opinion as being just.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:59 AM

Sorry - didn't link that
Hopes and strategies for a future in Palestine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 09:19 AM

In a region of autocracies and theocracies, Israel shines as a beacon of freedom and hope in the Middle East. Its diverse culture, open society and guaranteed civil and political liberties for all citizens, regardless of race, religion, gender or creed, follows closely to Western democratic tradition. It's liberal democracy, in fact, is the main reason that Israel has been able to have remarkable economic development despite being in a neighborhood surrounded by uncompromising enemies.

Israel's Liberal Democracy

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 10:36 AM

The Jewish Virtual Library -"one of whose "principal objectives is to enhance Israel's image by publicizing novel Israeli approaches to problems" (unquote" you need to ne joking!!
Did you never hear the saying "self praise is no recommendation"?
You're going to have to come up with something better than self-promoting propaganda to dispute the facts you are studiously ignoring.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 11:42 AM

You're going to have to come up with something better than self-promoting propaganda to dispute the facts you are studiously ignoring.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Do you deny that the laws of Israel guarantee civil and political liberties for all citizens, regardless of race, religion, gender or creed? Or are you rejecting it because it comes from a Jewish source - and we know what those Jews are like - right?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

You and your friend has dismissed Jewish nurse, Ellen Shapiro as a liar, ignored all the eye witness statements

If you mean Ellen Siegel, I have not dismissed her testimony.
Likewise Robert Fisk.
They both saw only one bulldozer, neither saw bodies being buried, and neither saw Israelis in the camp.
Who is your eye witness?
That 50s pop singer Helen Shapiro?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:20 PM

"If you mean Ellen Siegel, I have not dismissed her testimony."
Yes you have - she couldn't possibly ave seen what she said she could see - remember?
She had dedicated her life to proving what happened - you apparently have dedicated yours to proving she is telling lies.
The bulldozers have been verified as being used to bury the bodies - over and over again.
You have only offered denials
I have researched reports - where is your witness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:30 PM

Jim,
Yes you have - she couldn't possibly ave seen what she said she could see - remember?

I have never said that about her.

The bulldozers have been verified as being used to bury the bodies - over and over again.

No they have not. You made that up.
The dead were buried by the ICRC.

You have only offered denials
I have offered the eye witness accounts of Siegel and Fisk.

I have researched reports - where is your witness

Siegel and Fisk.
What eye witness have you found for dozers burying bodies?
None Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:41 PM

For christs sake Keith (I thought believing in him meant not telling lies) - she couldn't possibly know what was happening because she was inside the hospital - she couldn't possibly see from the top of the hospital - I think you tried to claim the map showed it.....
A whole string of excuses for why her testimony was unbelievable.
As I have just pointed out - she has dedicated her life to proving what happened - you have dedicated your life to proiving she isn't telling the truth.
"The dead were buried by the ICRC."
Nobody knows who buried the dead nor where they are buried - the Israelis made sure of that.
You have been given a dozen accounts of this fact - you have only offered denials based on the Israeli claim that they didn't do it.
"What eye witness have you found for dozers burying bodies?"
Eye witness accounts from the survivors, which of course don't count as they are not Israelis and they contradict their claims.
Piss of Keith - we're finished here
I sincerely hope for your sake that there is no God.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 01:12 PM

I have alwas had absolute contempt for the likes of David Irving - the Nazis slaughtered Jews, Gypsies, trades Unionists, the medically or mentally "unfit".... anybody who didn't measure up to the aspirations of The Reich - Irving took away the dignity of the dead by defending the actions of their killers.
You and your mates fit into this category perfectly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

The laws of Israel are one thing, bobad, but what actually happens on the ground is another matter, and is what actually matters. We've been here before. There are massive disparities in schooling, in school transport, in employment opportunities, in housing, in unemployment and in pay, not to speak of mistreatment at checkpoints and the existence of forbidden areas for non-Jews to live in. No doubt you'll be telling me that it's all lies and propaganda. Unfortunately, as I've posted here before, it's all rather well-documented. I asked you whether or not you believed in full equality in Israel for Arab-Palestinians. I didn't ask you for Chomsky's opinion or what the law says. You have yet to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:09 PM

You have yet to answer.

Yes I have, reread for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:32 PM

she couldn't possibly know what was happening because she was inside the hospital -

She was marched from the hospital through and out of the camp.
She saw a single bulldozer working, but saw no bodies being buried.
She saw no Israelis in the camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:47 PM

Yes I have, reread for comprehension.

What you choose to believe, Bubo, and what actually is are two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:00 PM

I hought you just said "I have not dismissed her testimony." - damn, must have been someone else
You have never learned to put a sensible gap between making a statement and claiming you never made it, have you
Finished here Keith - you've had the facts and your denials prove nothing
You contribute nothing other than a bad taste in the mouth.
G'night
Sleep as well as your conscience will let you - probably pretty well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:55 PM

No, bobad, you've actually been evasive. As you sounded rather racist when this first cropped up, I ask you again for clarification. Do you agree that Arab-Palestinians in Israel should enjoy full equality with Jews? In every regard: jobs, wages, housing, education, transport, freedom of movement, freedom of where to live, treatment by the authorities? Not just equality according to what the law says (which doesn't happen), but in reality? Simple question, a simple "yes" without caveats would nail it. Are you up for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 05:49 AM

Jim, I have not dismissed her testimony, I have put it in front of you.
She saw and reported nothing that contradicts Israel's version of events.

You have been shown repeatedly that your anti-Israel sites tell lies.
Will you not explore the possibility that Israel is telling the truth?

It is not just me. Decent democratic governments are all on friendly terms with Israel and would not be if they believed all that stuff.
They know it to be just lying propaganda.
Open your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 06:19 AM

Are people really this naïve?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 06:44 AM

By the same token Saudi Arabia must be a paragon of virtue because we are on good terms with it. They cannot be involved in any of the human rights abuses there are accused of or we would have said something. Right?

:-S

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 06:47 AM

"Jim, I have not dismissed her testimony, I have put it in front of you."
Over the course of these arguments you have disputed everything she has said and everything she has now dedicated her life to.
You have done this by dismissing or ignoring facts and you have accused those who disagree with you by criticising the israeli regime of anti semitism.
The details of Sabra Shatila, the part Israel played in it, the transport, weapons, illumination, bulldozers used for mass burials.... are all a matter of history, disputed only by Israel and those who would defend such atrocities.
This is all repetition - nothing new and no point in prolonging, unless some miracle provides fresh insight.
There is no point continuing - everything has been said and you have provided nothing or proved nothing.
Perhaps you are referring to the decent democratic governments who stood by and watched the people of Homs being massacred, doing nothing, and are now standing watching the same thing happening to the people of Aleppo
Piss on your decent and democratic governments if that's how they behave - you have the facts and the fact that you have to fall back on this dishonest excuse once again is proof that you are unable to challenge them
Stop haunting this forum with your dishonest extremism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

"The details of Jenin, the part Israel played in it, the transport, weapons, illumination, bulldozers used for mass burials.... are all a matter of FICTION Deliberately presented, promulgated and broadcast by Palestinians to further their agenda.

10 years prior to Jenin they pulled exactly the same stunt in Beirut, and Jim Carroll and many others swallowed it "hook-line-and-sinker".

No-one can substantiate the 3,500 supposed victims.

Jim Carroll talks of "secret mass graves" hidden beneath the Camille Chamoun Stadium - the largest sports stadium in Lebanon - A stadium that was completely rebuilt and redeveloped after 1982 - Guess what? - No mass graves found, they found no human remains whatsoever.

Jim Carroll produces reams of paperwork and he presents them as "eye-witness" testimony. On examination what was produced was nothing of the sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 11:06 AM

"No-one can substantiate the 3,500 supposed victims."
Nobody can deny them either - the Israeli bulldozers made sure of that
So Ellen Siegel, Robert Fisk, the McBride Commission all the survivors who gave evidence - were all part of a Lebanese plot?
That took longer than it should to emerge.   
"Jim Carroll produces reams of paperwork"
And you have produced not a single scrap - all personal, agenda-driven opinion.
"he presents them as "eye-witness" testimony."
Yet another lie to add to the list
Please produce one scrap of evidence I have produced and claimed as "an eye witness account" that wasn't - waste of time asking for this, of course.
In fact I have avoided most eye witness accounts as they are not as readily available as the researched reports that were based on interviews.
While you are at it, you might produce an alternative account of the massacre that is not personal opinion or the official line put out by the perpetrators
Jim Carroll

SOME EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNTS HERE - all lies of course!!
"On Thursday, there was shelling when the Israelis came, then it got worse so we went down into the shelter. (…) We learned on Friday that there had been a massacre. I went to my neighbours' house. I saw our neighbour Mustapha Al Habarat; he was injured and lying in a bath of his own blood. His wife and children were dead. We took him to the Gaza hospital and then we fled. When things had calmed down, I came back and searched for my daughter and my husband for four days. I spent four days looking for them through all the dead bodies. I found Zeinab dead, her face burnt. Her husband had been cut in two and had no head. I took them and buried them. Samiha Abbas Hijazi (3)

".. they had put the men on one side and the women on the other… The armed men ordered us to walk in front, and the men behind. We walked like this until we got to the communal grave. There, the bulldozer started digging. Among us was a man who was wearing a white nurse's shirt; they called him and filled him with bullets in front of everyone. The women started screaming. The Israelis posted in front of the Kuwaiti embassy and in front of the Rihab station requested through loudspeakers that we be handed over to them. That's how we found ourselves in their hands. They took us to the Sports Centre, and the men were supposed to walk behind us. But they took the men's shirts off and started blindfolding them. At the Sports Centre, the Israelis submitted the young people to an interrogation, and the Phalangists delivered 200 people to them. And that's how neither my husband nor my sister's husband ever came back." Sana Mahmoud Sersawi (3)

… some Israelis and some Phalangists… placed us against the wall and … shot at the men. I was hit and I pretended to be dead. Three or four others fell on top of me. They were dead…. They then resumed their task, 5 or 6 times. They fired more shots to make sure that everyone was dead. At about five in the morning… I heard an Israeli on a microphone saying, "Give up your weapons, you will have your lives spared and those of your family." I tried to climb up the slope in order to give myself up like they said… I looked and I saw them placing the men on one side and the women on the other. Then I saw them shooting them. That's why I went back to hide… I stayed there until the evening. They were sitting around a table drinking alcohol, there was only a wall separating me from them. The wall was cracked; I could see what was happening. They were saying to each other, "don't leave anything that moves." Hamad Mohammed Shamas (3)

"The Israeli Army surrounded the camps, providing the murderers with all the support, aid and facilities necessary for them to carry out their appalling crime. They supplied them with bulldozers and with the necessary pictures and maps. In addition, they set off incandescent bombs in the air in order to turn night into day so that none of the Palestinians would be able to escape death's grip. And those who did flee – women, children and the elderly – were brought back inside the camps by Israeli soldiers to face their destiny."

"What will always stick in my memory is of a little boy that had come from the camps & his little body had no limbs. I can remember just holding him, holding his little body close. He was covered with blood and the life was running out of him. He was crying for his mother..They had also bulldozed buildings with people still inside, families still watching television, or having dinner. They bulldozed these people. They massacred these people. I saw bodies, piles of bodies, heaped up, mutilated & believe me they hadn't been shot. It was like a scene from what I would have imagined happened in WWII to the Jews. They had been executed. Children, women, animals, anything that moved-they had massacred…It was horror in there, it was horror. The stench, the massacre. They are war crimes. But I shall certainly never forget. Of all the horrors & atrocities & of the many things that have happened to me when I was in Beirut, nothing can come close to what I witnessed in these camps. Nothing." Deborah Thornton-Jackson (4)

"At noon on Friday, the second day of the terrorist massacre, and with the approval of the Israeli Army, the kata'ib forces began receiving more ammunition, while the forces which had been in the camps were replaced by other, "fresh" forces."

One of the journalists who went into the camps after the massacre reports what he saw, saying, "The corpses of the Palestinians had been thrown among the rubble that remained of the Shatila camp. It was impossible to know exactly how many victims there were, but there had to be more than 1,000 dead. Some of the men who had been executed had been lined up in front of a wall, and bulldozers had been used in an attempt to bury the bodies and cover up the aftermath of the massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:06 PM

Another piece of gullible, lying propaganda
"'NOW CAME THE ISRAELI ARMY BULLDOZERS. "PLOW EVERYTHING UNDER THE GROUND. DON'T LET ANY WITNESSES STAY ALIVE." BUT DESPITE OUR EFFORTS THE AREA WAS STILL TEEMING WITH PEOPLE. THEY RAN ABOUT AND CAUSED AWFUL CONFUSION. THE ORDER TO "PLOW THEM UNDER" DEMANDED TOO MUCH.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 09:03 PM

The UK Adopts Modern Definition of Anti-Semitism

the IHRA makes clear that modern anti-Semitism may involve a certain excessive demonising and hate-filled discourse about the Jewish state "conceived as a Jewish collectivity." Some so-called "criticism of Israel" is anything but, having strayed into a dark place, where anti-Semitism is updated for our times. Some of that discourse, such as the Holocaust Inversion—in which Israel is depicted as The Third Reich, the IDF as the SS, Netanyahu as Hitler, and the Star of David twisted into the Swastika—positively luxuriates in those dark places.

The UK government is calling time on all that. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust, or of being more loyal to Israel than their own nations is now defined as anti-Semitism. The denial of the Jewish peoples right to self-determination, requiring of Israel a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation, the application to Israel of the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism, such as the blood libel, all this too, is now defined as anti-Semitism. The "[Ken]Livingstone Formulation"—i.e. the claim that no attack on Israel or Zionism is ever anti-Semitic, while every objection to an attack on Israel is always a bad faith dirty 'Zionist' affair—has had its day.

The Left is comfortable fighting classic anti-Semitism, especially if it comes wearing a skinhead haircut and Dr Martens boots. But when it comes to the anti-Semitism aimed at Israel, the anti-Semitic anti-Zionism highlighted by the IHRA, parts of the Left have lost their way. Too many turn the world upside down until support for Israel's enemies—whatever these enemies stand for, however they behave—is a left-wing duty. For example, Judith Butler, a leading US academic, said Hamas and Hezbollah, two of the most murderous anti-Semitic organizations in the world, must be understood as "social movements that are progressive, that are on the left, that are part of a global left, is extremely important."

Good news then, that the Labour Party has announced that it too will accept the government's new definition. If Jeremy Corbyn's staff have also read the IHRA guidance notes, then that really would be a breakthrough.

World Affairs


Reporting Anti-Semitic Incidents

Incidents can take several forms, including physical attacks on people or property, verbal or written abuse and threats, or antisemitic graffiti, leaflets or posters.
Incidents can also include social media postings if they involve a UK-based offender or victim.

Online:
Report the incident here.

By phone:
For a non-emergency, call the Police on 101
and CST London 0208 457 9999
Manchester & northern regions 0161 792 6666

Report by email:
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 03:47 AM

Jim,
Over the course of these arguments you have disputed everything she has said

Not true Jim.
I have NEVER disputed ANYTHING said by Siegel.

Dave, we are not talking about human rights abuses or we would have no relations with the whole Arab world.
We are talking about massacres of civilians.

Jim again,
So Ellen Siegel, Robert Fisk, the McBride Commission all the survivors who gave evidence - were all part of a Lebanese plot?

Nothing there that contradicts Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 03:53 AM

Jim, your link has harrowing pictures of massacre victims.
No-one denies a massacre occurred.
It also contains Fisk's account which entirely supports Israel's version of events.
It does not show Fisk's video of Palestinian fighters engaged in a fire fight inside the camp.

The link is to an Israel hating propaganda site.
If you want to convince anybody, use respected and reputable sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:41 AM

The UK Adopts Modern Definition of Anti-Semitism
HOLDING JEWS COLLECTIVELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL
So there you go
Every individual who describes criticism of Israel as "Antisemitic" is an antisemite.
While Israel continues to ADOPT THIS POLICY , no definition in the world will have a shred of meaning
Keith
Quite honestly, I couldn't give two shits what you are now claiming you said -it's all on record
The fact that you are still claiming Israel was not responsible for what she says they are makes you diametrically opposed to what she has dedicated her life to telling the world about - you are contradicting what she said even to the point of saying she didn't see it or was told abot it by those she was treating.
Typically you reduce my link to "harrowing pictures", totally ignoring the information implicating Israel that comes with it - rather makes my point.
I really think you should get together with David Irving - he might give you some tips.
Your crude denials in defence of the indefensible are just that - crude denials.
Pl;ease go away and live with your conscience in silence - you really have no more to say on this matter
You really have disgraced yourself for long enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:09 AM

Too many turn the world upside down until support for Israel's enemies—whatever these enemies stand for, however they behave—is a left-wing duty. For example, Judith Butler, a leading US academic, said Hamas and Hezbollah, two of the most murderous anti-Semitic organizations in the world, must be understood as "social movements that are progressive, that are on the left, that are part of a global left, is extremely important."

Well, "leading US academic," classic weasel words, enshrines both an appeal to authority and a straw man argument. The extract quoted is wilfully out of context and misrepresents her views on Hamas and Hezbollah. Not only that, the unqualified description of Hamas and Hezbollah in that sentence is nakedly Islamophobic. We may not like what Hamas and Hezbollah do but we bloody well know how they started and why they're there, and what we know doesn't exactly cast successive Israeli regimes in a good light. Their supporters calling Hamas and Hezbollah "murderous" are applying a double standard that, in terms of outrage, trumps anything in that confounded "definition."

To put the record straight for bobad and others who like to be highly selective in what they quote and who clearly can't read anything that is more that the length of a Daily Mail headline, here's the real lowdown on Judith Butler, who is actually an outstanding campaigner for non-violent resistance. Shame on you, bobad. From wiki.

Butler was criticized for statements she had made about Hamas and Hezbollah. She had described them as "social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left".She was accused of defending "Hezbollah and Hamas as progressive organizations" and supporting their tactics.

Butler responded to these criticisms by stating that her remarks on Hamas and Hezbollah were taken completely out of context and badly, if not wittingly, distort her established views on non-violence. She has repeatedly condemned the violence and non-democratic actions of these groups while clearly advocating for a politics committed to non-violence. In a recent interview she explained that Hamas and Hezbollah are "progressive" insofar as they do address infrastructural needs that are quite acute under occupation. Precisely because such groups are supplying important social services, it becomes harder—yet more urgent—to find ways of persuading people not to support their violent tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:50 AM

In a recent interview she explained that Hamas and Hezbollah are "progressive" insofar as they do address infrastructural needs that are quite acute under occupation.

So Gaza and Lebanon are under occupation eh? Typical lies and distortion of the truth such as are the tools of the likes of Shaw and Carroll. The only occupiers of these two places are the terrorist groups that operate out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:57 AM

Both have been constantly uber attack and have had atrocities committed against them
Gaza has been reduced to little more than a ghetto by Israel, with many of the historical comparisons that implies.
"Typical lies and distortion of the truth "
Is really all you have to offer, the rest is vitriolic, antisemitic abuse.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:35 AM

Why don't you learn to read, bobad? Hezbollah arose as a direct consequence of the occupation of southern Lebanon by Israel. Hezbollah had been in existence for eighteen years before Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon. Hamas arose as a direct consequence of the occupation of the Gaza Strip by Israel. Hamas had been in existence for nearly twenty years before Israel withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza. Even Ariel Sharon, the instigator of that withdrawal, used the word "occupation" in relation to Gaza. One might have thought that you of all people would hang on every word that the thuggish Sharon uttered. Check your facts before you accusing others of lies and distortion. It's you doing that here, not us, and I'll indulge you by assuming that you are doing it out of ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:14 AM

Nice attempt at distorting again Shaw. Butler was speaking of the present not the past like you are trying to infer. Here's her entire quote in context, we'll just put it here and let everyone draw their own conclusion as to whether she believes that those two terrorist groups are progressive social movements of the Left.

Similarly, I think: Yes, understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important. That does not stop us from being critical of certain dimensions of both movements. It doesn't stop those of us who are interested in non-violent politics from raising the question of whether there are other options besides violence. So again, a critical, important engagement. I mean, I certainly think it should be entered into the conversation on the Left. I similarly think boycotts and divestment procedures are, again, an essential component of any resistance movement."