BS: Labour party discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 06:30 PM

Of course calling it a "political weapon" is also used as a justification for anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 06:43 PM

Why? Just for once, try explaining yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

"The slur of "antisenite" is increasingly used as a political weapon against people who are in no way antisemitic. Using it in this way is disrespectful of real victims of antisemitism, both in the past and in the present. It devalues the very term to use it in this way" - MGOH

Now read again what I posted:

The "anti-Semitism" row continues to rumble on with calls from those within the Labour Party for the permanent expulsion of Jackie Walker.

So the problem as far as some within the Labour Party are concerned is that anti-Semitism exists and that "The Leader" is doing nothing about it. That is what has been pointed out to the loyal Labour members of this forum. Never ever having been a member or supporter of any political party in my life means that perhaps I am less "blinkered" in my political outlook than they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 02:06 AM


The "anti-Semitism" row continues to rumble on with calls from those within the Labour Party for the permanent expulsion of Jackie Walker.

So the problem as far as some within the Labour Party are concerned is that anti-Semitism exists and that "The Leader" is doing nothing about it.

That's a misreading, in my view. But let's clarify your view first. Do you think Jackie Walker is the one who is being anti-Semitic, or those calling for expulsion, or that none of them are but that some Labour people think expelling Walker is a way of stressing they won't tolerate anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 03:32 AM

As far as the Labour Party and the presentation of political parties in the UK is concerned what I personally think is beside the point. Address the message DMcG not the messenger.

Goes back to what was said earlier in this thread, it would appear that everybody gets a say in what constitutes "anti-Semitism" except the Jews who can have absolutely no say in the matter, apparently because their views are by nature biased and controlled by the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:13 AM

"So the problem as far as some within the Labour Party are concerned is that anti-Semitism exists "
Depends oon who the "some" are
So far, they have turned out to be Israeli supporters campaigning to halt the boycott and right-wing opponents of Corbyn
o evedence of a serious problem has been found, unless you accept the "guilty by accusation" style of justice.
The Jackie Walker nonsense just about sums up the quality of the evidence.
Her suggestion on Holocaust Day is spot on and long overdue
"it would appear that everybody gets a say in what constitutes "anti-Semitism" except the Jews"
The Jews, like the rest of us, have no doubt what Antisemitism is - a direct attack on the Jewish people
TheIsraelis have extended that to include criticism of Israeli political policy
Those Jewish People who disagree have been deemed "self hating Jews"
Many Jews are the harshest crittics of the present Israeli regime - "Antisemites all".
For the record, this is a rough total of those who died as a result of the Nazi policy of deliberate extermination.
Number of Deaths
Jews: up to 6 million
Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)
Soviet prisoners of war: around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)
Non-Jewish Polish civilians: around 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites)
Serb civilians (on the territory of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina): 312,000
People with disabilities living in institutions: up to 250,000
Roma (Gypsies): 196,000–220,000
Jehovah's Witnesses: Around 1,900
Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000
German political opponents and resistance activists in Axis-occupied territory: undetermined
Homosexuals: hundreds, possibly thousands (possibly also counted in part under the 70,000 repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials noted above)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:45 AM


As far as the Labour Party and the presentation of political parties in the UK is concerned what I personally think is beside the point. Address the message DMcG not the messenger

As I have said elsewhere, I am not going to enter into rows that I think are unnecessary. But what you think is crucial, since it is people's views that need to be understood before they can be addressed. It is of limited value if we completely eliminate what "we" see as antisemitism if "you" see something else entirely as antisemitic. We cannot decide what to do about anti-Semitism in any group unless we know what we mean by the term - and it is obvious there is disagreement here - and who we think is guilty of it. And here it is complicated by all sorts of issues that don't really have anything to do with antisemitism, like trying to sound the note "Corbyn is a weak leader" without caring too much about how you do that.

So, yes, I do think it is appropriate to ask you to clarify your views because that is what enables a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:57 AM

The accusations are not from enemies of Labour, or even enemies of Momentum.
BBC,
"But a spokesman for Momentum, the left-wing grassroots organisation set up in wake of Jeremy Corbyn's 2015 election as Labour leader, said: "Members of Momentum's steering committee are seeking to remove Jackie Walker as vice-chair of the committee." "


"Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA union, which backed Momentum and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, said on Thursday he was "deeply saddened that a fellow member of our Labour and trade union family holds such anti-Semitic views" and said she should not be allowed to "remain active within our party".
"I am asking Jackie that in the interests of unity she resigns at once from our party and also as vice-chair of Momentum.
"If she doesn't, both the Labour Party and Momentum need to act to get rid of her at once.
"We would seriously need to consider our union's support for Momentum if she is still in post by this time next week." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37513813

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 05:28 AM

"a fellow member of our Labour and trade union family holds such anti-Semitic views""
What a pity those views aren't Antisemitic - or are they?
Surely, if someone has been accused of expressing Antisemitic views, we have a right to know what those vies are.
Nothing produced so far come anything near that description - maybe Mr Cortes knows something we don't?
What is this "antisemitism" she ha#s advocated?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 05:43 AM

Jackie Walker's difficulty in finding a definition of Antisemitism she can work with seems to be one many people are having since Israel decided to move the goalposts to include criticism of Israeli policy in their own definition.
Most accusations seem to be related to criticism of Israel rather than attacks on the Jewish People
Mac of H put it in a nutshell above when he wrote:
The slur of "antisemite" is increasingly used as a political weapon against people who are in no way antisemitic. Using it in this way is disrespectful of real victims of antisemitism, both in the past and in the present. It devalues the very term to use it in this way,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 05:54 AM

If you express hostility towards Jews or discriminate against Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS you are antisemitic. You simply can't use that word for any extended definition, and the people who do so (who are far from all being Jews) are just as ignorant in their remarks as are the alleged Labour miscreants. It's fine in debate to try to defend the actions of the Israeli regime, (though be prepared for a good scrap if you do), provided you're honest enough to admit that that's what you're doing, and not doing it whilst hiding behind a false definition which you're using as your backstop. It is simply not right that those of us who disagree with the policies and actions of a regime have to constantly tread on eggshells lest our opponents lazily and ignorantly throw the antisemite slur at us. That is precisely what has happened in the Labour Party, and those who refuse to see why it happens are both disingenuous and blinkered. It's simple. The opponents of Corbyn want him out and the antisemitism ploy is just one tactic. There has been some pretty unprincipled behaviour, taking Ruth Smeeth's and John Mann's stage-managed and shabby charades as examples. And, DMcG, it isn't a debatable alternative definition they seek to use. It's false. To say that I'm "antisemitic" if I criticise the theft of land for settlements, or because I condemn the building of an apartheid wall, is both ignorant of the proper meaning of the term, dishonest and is absolutely NOT in the interests of Jewish people. In fact, degrading the definition makes it all the harder to attack real antisemitism where it does occur, which, sadly, it does, a lot. And it is simply a lie to assert that "the leader has done nothing about it." He is a lifelong opponent of racism, he publicly condemns antisemitism, he has criticised the members of his party who indulge in aggressive behaviour towards Jews and other minorities and he set up an enquiry which has reported but which, unfortunately, will never keep some people happy short of having mass executions in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM

And, DMcG, it isn't a debatable alternative definition they seek to use. It's false.

As it happens, I totally agree. But any form of progress in discussion depends on people recognising their shared ground and where they differ and then seeking a way forward. Peace processes, and all that. I don't think two groups simply declaring the other is wrong gets us very far.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:43 AM

Israel decided to move the goalposts to include criticism of Israeli policy in their own definition.

They have done no such thing Jim. They have a free press that criticises Israeli policy every day, and an opposition whose very purpose is to criticise Israeli policy.
Why are you always making false claims against Israel Jim?

The slur of "antisemite" is increasingly used as a political weapon against people who are in no way antisemitic.

Is it? Should antisemitism not be challenged and attacked because it might harm the political careers of the antisemites?
I think antisemites have no place in politics, and I do not believe it is all a conspiracy against Corbyn.
That is a delusion and proved so by the statements of pro Corbyn people like those in my BBC link.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 07:02 AM

"They have done no such thing Jim."
Israeli Justice Minister
Theyr have declared that Jews who criticise Israel are "Self hating"
"Is it?"]
If it is applied to critics of Israel, it most certainly is
If it is applied as a means to defend Israel it is Antisemitic, as it implicates all Jewish people in acts of terrorism, human rights abuses and possible war crimes carried out by the Israeli regime.
Anitsemitism certainly does have a place in politics unfortunately - extreme right-wing politics.
So far, there is no evidence that it has a place in Labour Party politics, and never has had.
Historically. the Tory Party can't make the same claim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 07:32 AM

"But what you think is crucial, since it is people's views that need to be understood before they can be addressed"

As someone who is not particularly interested in any political party in the UK what I think is irrelevant, the people whose views you have had your attention drawn to are all members of the Labour Party who think that there is a problem, those are the "people's views that need to be understood before they can be addressed".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM

Surely it is essential to know what those complaints are before you can judge whether they are valid?
That is the missing ingredients in all these arguments
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM

Her suggestion on Holocaust Day is spot on and long overdue

There's a reason why those who co-opt the Black Lives Matter movement with White Lives Matter are racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM

Jim,
Theyr have declared that Jews who criticise Israel are "Self hating"

No they have not. You quoted one single person, who does not say that anyway.
Why do you keep making these false claims against Israel Jim?

So far, there is no evidence that it has a place in Labour Party politics, and never has had.

That is a really silly statement Jim.
There is lots of evidence in the form of statements from prominent members, MPs, officials and the entire NEC!


Surely it is essential to know what those complaints are before you can judge whether they are valid?

Yes, and those who have made that judgement do know.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM

Her suggestion on Holocaust Day is spot on and long overdue

There's a reason why those who co-opt the "Black Lives Matter" movement with "All Lives Matter" are racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 08:22 AM

Jim,
Theyr have declared that Jews who criticise Israel are "Self hating"

No they have not. You quoted one single person, who does not say that anyway.
Why do you keep making these false claims against Israel Jim?

So far, there is no evidence that it has a place in Labour Party politics, and never has had.

That is a really silly statement Jim.
There is lots of evidence in the form of statements from prominent members, MPs, officials and the entire NEC!


Surely it is essential to know what those complaints are before you can judge whether they are valid?

Yes, and those who have made that judgement do know.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 09:41 AM

"No they have not. You quoted one single person, "
I have quoted several, including a report that Neteyahu has endorsed it publicly
Why do you keep ignoring what you have been given over and over again?
You damn well know this is true - that is why you refuse to respond to the statement made by the Israeli justice Minister - if you can't answer i, ignore it, seems to be the way you work.
"There is lots of evidence in the form of statements "
If you mean accusations there are no such things from the NEC, who have examined the charges and found there is no case to answer.
They have treated the matter seriously and found there to be no major problem.
No-one here, or elsewhere has specified what exactly what those accusations are other than criticisism of Israel - these do not amount to Antisemitism by any definition
It is utterly Kafkaesque to accuse somebody of something and refuse to specify what you are accusing them of.
Unless you start answering these points, I am no longer going to respond to your dishonesty - there really is no point talking to someone who has defended every crime and atrocity Israel has ever committed.
Apart from anything else, it ***** up threads
Put up or go talk to someone else - I really am not interested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM

"And, DMcG, it isn't a debatable alternative definition they seek to use. It's false."

"As it happens, I totally agree. But any form of progress in discussion depends on people recognising their shared ground and where they differ and then seeking a way forward. Peace processes, and all that. I don't think two groups simply declaring the other is wrong gets us very far."

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 10:14 AM

Sorry about that. I'll try again.

"And, DMcG, it isn't a debatable alternative definition they seek to use. It's false."

"As it happens, I totally agree. But any form of progress in discussion depends on people recognising their shared ground and where they differ and then seeking a way forward. Peace processes, and all that. I don't think two groups simply declaring the other is wrong gets us very far."

It is not possible to find any shared ground with people who have a dishonest agenda. The efforts to broaden the definition of antisemitism to include attacks on the policies or activities of the Israeli regime come under that category, because they have nothing to do with defending Jewish people against attacks based on their ethnicity or perceived personality traits and everything to do with preventing criticism of the Israeli regime, no matter what they get up to. No-one is forced by such ploys to hold back on criticism of Britain's role in the Middle East or America's role in Vietnam, and we should likewise be free and unfettered in attacking the Israeli regime. The attempt to widen the definition degrades the proper definition and makes it harder to tackle the issue of real antisemitism. That actually disadvantages Jewish people severely, so when Jim accuses people like Keith,Teribus and bobad of antisemitism he's absolutely right, and it's time they ditched the dishonesty and got on the side of the ordinary Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 10:21 AM

Can we finish with some of this dishonesty once and for all?
Keith can work his way through this at his leisure
Not going to bother bllue clickying it

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4591891,00.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09/30/the-self-hating-jew-a-critique/

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.664162

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/criticising-israel-is-not-the-same-as-being-anti-jewish-1.2631721

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/211763/black-lives-matter-and-self-hating-jews

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Curbing-the-self-loathing-Jewish-defamers-of-Israel-403470

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/04/26/the-phenomenon-of-jewish-self-hatred/

http://www.wrmea.org/2009-november/israel-and-judaism-attempts-to-silence-critics-of-israeli-policies-as-self-hating-jews-a-failing-strategy.html

http://www.metroeireann.com/news/652/im-no-self-hating-jew.html

http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/anti-zionism-anti-semitic?print

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/No-holds-barred-Anti-Israel-speakers-and-Jewish-self-hatred-344156

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfbS2nubivI

http://jewishquarterly.org/issuearchive/article2366.html?articleid=432

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-political-zionist-accusation-of-self-hating-jew/5512218

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/self-hating-jew-antisemitism

https://www.bustle.com/articles/32836-is-jon-stewart-a-self-hating-jew-i-asked-the-daily-show-host-and-heres-what-he

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 10:22 AM

Jim, the headline on that article you linked to from an anti Israel propaganda site was,
"Israeli Justice Minister: It's Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel"

That was a lie. She has never said any such thing and nor has any minister.
The story was lifted from here,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/04/israeli-minister-criticizing-israel-is-the-new-anti-semitism/

She said that some antisemites had found that their attacks were more acceptable if directed at Israel instead of Jews.
That is not the same as saying that only antisemites criticise Israel, and certainly not "It's Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel" !!!

Neteyahu has endorsed it publicly
Let's see it then Jim!!

If you mean accusations there are no such things from the NEC, who have examined the charges and found there is no case to answer.

No. I mean this,
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

It is utterly Kafkaesque to accuse somebody of something and refuse to specify what you are accusing them of.

That is not me or Teribus. We are just the messengers.
Take it up with those prominent members, MPs, officials, the entire NEC and those pro-Corbyn activists I quoted today. They make the accusations, not us.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 10:29 AM

Steve,
The efforts to broaden the definition of antisemitism to include attacks on the policies or activities of the Israeli regime

What efforts by who Steve, or is this just another of your vacuous assertions?

Jim, Please identify one link that has evidence of an Israeli minister claiming, "It's Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel"

You know that no-one will spend an afternoon going through your silly list of web addresses.
Stop obfuscating and give us the killer evidence.
Confident prediction, you can't!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 10:47 AM

You've had it Keith and you will only ignore it again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 11:05 AM

http://themessinglink.com/Anti-Semite

Addressing increasing boycott calls, he called for Israel to "fight back" and "delegitimize the delegitimizers."
"I think that it is important that the boycotters be exposed for what they are, they are classical Anti-Semites in modern garb," Netanyahu said.
He said Israeli is fighting BDS both by exposing the boycotters and with its booming high-tech sector.
"The most eerie and disgraceful thing is that people on the soil of Europe are talking about the boycott of Jews. That is outrageous," he said. "The boycotters make their goal clear: to end the Jewish state."

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 11:56 AM

Are you going to respond to those "self-hating Jews" links Keith?
You claimed I made the phrase up, now you have claimed I only produced one.
You will now refuse to acknowledge both - it's what you do
Your dishonesty appears t have no limits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

"The efforts to broaden the definition of antisemitism to include attacks on the policies or activities of the Israeli regime..."

"What efforts by who Steve, or is this just another of your vacuous assertions?"

Quite possibly your silliest post to date.

Not much chance of common ground with this bloke, eh, DMcG? See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:31 PM

That should be "by whom".

Are there no depths to this man's ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:38 PM

You've had it Keith and you will only ignore it again

If that is true, shame me by repeating it.
How can I ignore it in front of all the contributors on this thread.
You are just squirming and wriggling because your claim is ridiculous and you are unable to support it.

In your quote of Netanhahu, he does not claim that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, only that some critics of Israel are motivated by antisemitism.

You claimed I made the phrase up, now you have claimed I only produced one.

I did not claim that you invented the phrase, and you did initially quote one person, now two, neither of whom have claimed that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel.

And, why are we even discussing Israel Jim? You are obsessed!

Steve, I only asked you to justify your assertions.
That is a reasonable request. If you are incapable of supporting your wild claims, that needs to be exposed, and yet again it has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:13 PM

"How can I ignore it in front of all the contributors on this thread."
Pretty much the same as you are ignoring the facts of the "Self Haring Jews" statement now, which you originally describd as "made up shit"
THread drift - you have to be joking!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM

Looking at that Washington Post articcle quoting the Israel Justice Minister does seem to confirm that she was seeking to identify those who criticise Israel as anti-semitic

"In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews. Now, we see them speaking against Israel. It is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews," Shaked said in an interview with The Washington Post.

She said supporters of movements such as BDS, which, according to its website, calls for putting economic and political pressure on Israel in a bid to force it to comply with international law and gain rights for Palestinians, are "using the same kind of anti-Semitism but instead of saying they are against the Jews, they say they are against Israel."

Even something as elementary as boycotting Israel is seen as anti-semitic. Was it anti-white to boycott South Africa?

Antii-semitism is a vile thing. But to identify it with boycotting a regime in an attempt to influence it to cease breaking the law is to santitize the term. It's inviting people to say "Well, if that's anti-semitism, I must be an anti-semite".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM

So the Israel Justice Minister is saying that criticism of Israel is antisemitic. No caveats, no ifs, no buts. That is pretty clear evidence that the new definition, enshrined in her argument, is fully intended to proscribe all criticism of Israel. Which is what Jim and I and others have been saying all along. Perhaps our opponents would like to distance themselves from the Justice Minister...

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 02:28 PM

Hear, Hear, McGrath. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM

McGrath conveniently leaves out one of the principle goals of the BDS movement, that is "Israel ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands" which to them includes the present state of Israel. That is delegitimization of the legal state of Israel which is considered by most fair minded people as being anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:07 PM

23 reasons why BDS is antisemitic

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM

The minister was not limiting her comments to any particular organisation, but to the very principle of boycotting Israel.

A few years ago any time I was buying oranges, for example, I'd check they weren't South African. Now I always check they aren't from Israel. My reasons are precisely the same. They are in no way expressions of antisemitism.

The illegitimacy of apartheid South Africa was undermined by the fact that it's formal democratic structure - general elections, parliament etc - was founded on the exclusion of the African population, and the system under which they were said to be citizens of Bantustans.

Those who challenge the legitimacy of the present South Africa do so on the basis of a different but parallel narrative. While Palestinians who were able to stay on the territory of what became Israel, have been allowed to vote, the far larger number who fled into exile have at all times been refused permission to return - which is not consistent with international law. This is the justification for the view that the existing state of Israel lacks legitimacy. In spite of what it is so frequently accused of being, it is not an inherently antisemitic position,

There is an alternative position held by many critics of Israel which involves treating the question of the legitimacy of Israel as being settled. It is seen as a historical matter, analogous to the history of other countries such as the USA or Australia, an injustice to the previous inhabitants that cannot now be reversed. These critics focus on the two-state solution, and their criticisms of Israel are founded on the way in which progress towards that has been reversed, notably by such things as the continued establishments of settlements, in defiance of international law.

But even criticisms and actions such as boycotts based on this position position is in practice denounced as antisemitic. The Israeli minister of justice appears to endorse that accusation, in the light of that article.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:06 PM

Sorry - spot the unintentional slip in that post - here is the corrected version.

The minister was not limiting her comments to any particular organisation, but to the very principle of boycotting Israel.

A few years ago any time I was buying oranges, for example, I'd check they weren't South African. Now I always check they aren't from Israel. My reasons are precisely the same. They are in no way expressions of antisemitism.

The illegitimacy of apartheid South Africa was undermined by the fact that it's formal democratic structure - general elections, parliament etc - was founded on the exclusion of the African population, and the system under which they were said to be citizens of Bantustans.

Those who challenge the legitimacy of the present State of Israel do so on the basis of a different but parallel narrative. While Palestinians who were able to stay on the territory of what became Israel, have been allowed to vote, the far larger number who fled into exile have at all times been refused permission to return - which is not consistent with international law. This is the justification for the view that the existing state of Israel lacks legitimacy. In spite of what it is so frequently accused of being, it is not an inherently antisemitic position,

There is an alternative position held by many critics of Israel which involves treating the question of the legitimacy of Israel as being settled. It is seen as a historical matter, analogous to the history of other countries such as the USA or Australia, an injustice to the previous inhabitants that cannot now be reversed. These critics focus on the two-state solution, and their criticisms of Israel are founded on the way in which progress towards that has been reversed, notably by such things as the continued establishments of settlements, in defiance of international law.

But even criticisms and actions such as boycotts based on this position position is in practice denounced as antisemitic. The Israeli minister of justice appears to endorse that accusation, in the light of that article.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 09:07 PM

Again, thanks Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM

Two threads on the Labour Party and both now hijacked and turned into yet more threads about Israel.

Kevin and Steve,
It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, and no-one here or in Israel's government has ever claimed that it is, and it has not been an issue in Labour antisemitism.

Antisemitic bigots will obviously be hostile to Israel, but not all critics of Israel are antisemites.

"In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews."
So they were antisemites.
"Now, we see them speaking against Israel."
Yes, because they can not get away with blatant antisemitism any more.

When BDS began, Assad's regime had an infinitely worse human rights record, so why not boycott him?
Russia and Iran have appalling civil rights records, and are daily committing atrocities in Syria. Any boycott planned.
China? N.Korea?
Why is Israel singled out as if it was the worst place in the world, and why can we not discuss our Labour Party in threads dedicated to that subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:27 AM

Why was South Africa boycotted? There were and are worse regimes in some ways.

Basically the difference is that countries which aspire and claim to be democracies by virtue of that invite a special kind of criticism, one which tries to hold them to the standards they claim to accept. In addition the fact that there is significant mainstream for these countries in our society invites critics to respond to that. There is very little support for North Korea in our society, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

"It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, "
"Now, we see them speaking against Israel."
"Yes, because they can not get away with blatant antisemitism any more."
So it is antisemitic to speak against Israel - or not?
Which is it to be Keith - you've just said it is?
"Two threads on the Labour Party and both now hijacked and turned into yet more threads about Israel."
Links have been proven to exist which connect the Anti-boycott campaign to the accusation of (unproven) Antisemiitism in the Labour party - how dare you or anybody attempt to prevent us discussing those links, where do you think you are - Israel?
"and no-one here or in Israel's government has ever claimed that it is"
Israel's Justice minister did and it is the knee-jerk reaction of supporters of Israeli to describe criticism as ANTISEMITISM - you have accused me of it; Bobad's frothing-at-the mouth postings do nothing else.
"so why not boycott him?"
Why not indeed but what's that got to do with anything - nobody here supports Assad other than you when you said it was OK to sell him arms and equipment to put down the Arab Spring protesters.
When he was murdering the citizens of Homs, You described attempts to stop him as "invasion and "fascism"
You have never at any time opposed the selling of arms to these despots, on the contrary, you have defended arms sales.
Israel is singled out because she is a war criminal and human rights abuser who continues those crimes and abuses, has carried on a ten year long blockade of the Palestinian People in order to starve them into submission, and continue to seize their land - along with attempting to create an Apartheid State and ethnically cleanse non Jews from the Area.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 07:35 AM

The thread was diverted from talking about the Labour Party's current situation to talking about antisemitism because people opposed to the changes which have led to Jeremy Corbyn being reendorsed by the membership have levelled accusations of antisemitism against those supporting him.

These accusations have invited posts seeking to show them to be unfair and misdirected. And those posts have led to responses by people trying to show that they are justified.

At the same time in the real world stuff like suspensions of people accused of antisemitism is succeeding in focusing attention on this and keeping the issue very central. Those who see this as a cynical and manipulative tactic that seeks to exploit the natural revulsion against antisemitism to attack political opponents unjustly see it as necessary to say so.

I think it would be far better to return to more genuine issues around left wing politics in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM

Jim,
So it is antisemitic to speak against Israel - or not?

No it is not, and none of those mentioned or quoted in either thread has ever claimed that it is.

Antisemites will obviously be speaking against Israel, but all who speak against Israel are not antisemites.

Links have been proven to exist which connect the Anti-boycott campaign to the accusation of (unproven) Antisemiitism in the Labour party

No they have not Jim.

When he was murdering the citizens of Homs, You described attempts to stop him as "invasion and "fascism"

Here we go with the untrue smears. I have never said any such thing. I started the first of only two threads on Syria, calling mine "Homs horror."
I was one of the very few Mudcatters who spoke in support of Obama's plan to launch reprisals for Assad's chemical attacks. We agreed on that Jim, and so did Cameron.

You have never at any time opposed the selling of arms to these despots,
There were no arms sales to oppose.

Israel is singled out because she is a war criminal
No decent democracy believes that.

Kevin,
The thread was diverted from talking about the Labour Party's current situation to talking about antisemitism because people opposed to the changes which have led to Jeremy Corbyn being reendorsed by the membership have levelled accusations of antisemitism against those supporting him.

No. Antisemitism in Labour was always part of the discussion.
I question why issues relating to Israel and Middle East, including events over thirty years old, have displaced the subject in the thread titles!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

The piece about the Israeli minister of justice very clearly showed her seeking to identify significant criticism of Israel as essentially antisemitic.

The fact that there were at one time European leaders who were antisemitic was presented as provng that when different European leaders today criticise Israel, this had to be seen as antisemitic.

She identified protests against killings of noncombatants by the IDC as "blood libels" as if there could be no grounds for objecting to such bloodshed unless it was motivated by fantatical prejudice against all Jews.

Antisemitism is something quite different from criticism of the actions of the state of Israel, or even from a refusal to accept the legitimacy of that state as established on the basis of massive ethnic cleansing. I would suggest that identifying such criticism as antisemitic, and identifying Jews everywhere with Israel risks causing critics to accept this identification. And it seems to me that identifying Jews as such with the Israeli regime and State is in fact antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM

What "massive ethnic cleansing" Kevin?

Where and when has the state of Israel ever been indicted for war crimes or for crimes against humanity? In seeking a reply to this question I am not interested in what anyone on this forum thinks is a war crime, or thinks is a crime against humanity I am looking for specific charges brought before an international court and successfully prosecuted, charges, places and dates of the trials would be good as well as sentences handed down as a result of the guilty verdicts having been given.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM

What "massive ethnic cleansing" Kevin?

Where and when has the state of Israel ever been indicted for war crimes or for crimes against humanity? In seeking a reply to this question I am not interested in what anyone on this forum thinks is a war crime, or thinks is a crime against humanity I am looking for specific charges brought before an international court and successfully prosecuted, charges, places and dates of the trials would be good as well as sentences handed down as a result of the guilty verdicts having been given.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:48 AM

U.K.'s Labour Party Suspends Member Over Holocaust Remembrance Day Comments

Jackie Walker also questioned the need for security at Jewish institutions, during a workshop on how to confront anti-Semitism and engage Jewish voters.


A senior activist in Britain's Labour Party who is close to controversial party leader Jeremy Corbyn was suspended from the party late on Friday after she questioned why Holocaust Remembrance Day is only about Jews.

Jackie Walker also questioned the need for security at Jewish institutions, suggesting that anti-Semitism is not behind any attacks, during a workshop organized by the Jewish Labour Movement at the annual party conference on how to confront anti-Semitism and engage Jewish voters.

Recordings of her comments were published Wednesday on the Huffington Post.

Walker, a vice chair of Momentum — an organization formed to help Corbyn and Labour win the next national election — was suspended from the party in May for making anti-Semitic remarks. She was later reinstated.

"I was a bit concerned … at your suggestions that the Jewish community is under such threat that they have to use security in all its buildings," she said during the workshop, according to the Huffington Post.

Walker also told workshop participants that she still had not heard "a definition of anti-Semitism that I can work with."

She later apologized if her comments caused any offense, The Independent reported.

"Having been a victim of racism, I would never play down the very real fears the Jewish community have, especially in light of recent attacks in France," Walker said. "I would never play down the significance of the Shoah. Working with many Jewish comrades, I continue to seek to bring greater awareness of other genocides, which are too often forgotten or minimized. If offense has been caused, it is the last thing I would want to do and I apologize."

"I … utterly condemn anti-Semitism," Walker said.

Jeremy Newmark, the chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, called for Walker to resign over the comments.

"To denigrate security provision at Jewish schools, make false claims about the universality of National Holocaust Memorial Day and to challenge recognized definitions of anti-Semitism is provocative, offensive and a stark example of the problem facing the Labour Party today," Newmark said.

Gideon Falter, chairman of Britain's Campaign Against Antisemitism, also called for Walker to be expelled from the party and Momentum, and "condemned in the strongest possible terms."

"Until Labour matches its rhetoric with action, we remain of the view that the Labour Party is not safe for Jews," he said.

Holocaust Memorial Day does also honor the victims of other genocides and the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust's website includes information on atrocities in Rwanda and Cambodia, according to the U.K. Jewish News website.

The Labour Party is poised to take disciplinary action against Walker over the comments, the Jewish News reported, saying she has been told to "show contrition or resign." The report did not cite any sources.

Corbyn has faced allegations that his pro-Palestinian politics and endorsement of radical anti-Semites has encouraged hate speech against Jews. He been accused of doing too little to curb rampant anti-Semitism among party members and lawmakers, some of whom have been suspended for making racist and anti-Semitic statements on social media and in other public forums