BS: Labour party discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 12:29 PM

I have friends who live in Bude, my great grandfathers family lived for some time in one of the Canal Cottages, my neighbour here in Argyll had immediate family who lived next door to my Great grandfather in Captains Cottage. I am well versed on the carpetbaggers who reside there now.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 11:31 AM

"Of course employers decide what wages to offer, but market forces will encourage them to pay less if there are large numbers of people willing to work for less.
It is an established fact that immigration drives down wages, and blaming employers does not change that fact."

But having laws to stop employers from being unscrupulous would change "that fact." But don't worry, the Tories will now see to it that employment protection laws are degraded. Those are precisely the ones they hate, but which they kept rather quiet about in the campaign. It isn't actually a "fact" at all, is it? Not one spud-digger, not one care-home bottom-wiper, not one daffodil picker, not one chambermaid has the slightest say in what they get paid. The statement that "immigration drives down wages" is just one more sorry part of the racist narrative that hoodwinked so many people in the referendum.

To our resident bollocks-talker akenaton, Cornwall has the poorest economy of all the counties in England. Huge numbers of people in the main industries here, tourism and agriculture, are on part-time seasonal work on the minimum wage. Housing costs are among the highest in the country. Only couples who are both working full-time can remotely afford to rent a two-bed house in Bude or Truro. Buying is out of the question, not least because there are few affordable homes being built. Plenty of food banks here too, and rotten transport links coupled with high fuel prices. If Cornwall were a country its economy would be poorer than that of Hungary or Lithuania. I'm lucky - I've been here a very long time and we moved here to work as two teachers. We are in a small minority but, unlike you, I go around with my eyes open. So I suggest that you check your facts and engage your brain in future before you decide to open your big mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:43 AM

Do you believe that more immigration would be even better for the country, and there could never be a point of diminishing returns however many arrive?

There are both pros and cons, but the cons bite hardest on the poorest.

Of course employers decide what wages to offer, but market forces will encourage them to pay less if there are large numbers of people willing to work for less.
It is an established fact that immigration drives down wages, and blaming employers does not change that fact.
We have a massive and long standing housing crisis, and it is impossible for any government to build houses and infrastructure, and extend services at the same rate as our population increases.
You just can not build the equivalent of a small city every year.

(BTW, Cornwall voted 56% for Brexit)

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM

One confusion is that, while most peple will nod at the comment that there are things wrong with the EU, often they will be talking about different things. That's the problem with talking about "reforms" - the changes which Cameron was trying unsuccessfully to get the rest of the EU to agree to were mostly things many of us would be wholly against, and the changes many would want would be the kind of things Cameron would have opposed.
.............

We should recognise that, while immigration, for all the problems which arise when we fail to make appropriate arrangements for newcomers, is a benefit to this country, that is not so for the countries from which the emigrants come, even though in the short term it can be convenient. Emigration has long been spoken of in Ireland, for example, as "the plague of emigration".

When people who have been born, raised and edicated in other countries immigrate to Britain, those countries, which is most cases are much poorer than us, are in effect subsidising Britain. That is particularly true in the case of qualified and skilled people. There should be some method by which that anomaly can be rectified, with appropriate per capita payments, which could be used to improve employment opportunities - which would reduce the pressure on people to emigrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:11 AM

Had we stayed in the EU, when would we has been able to change the "free movement of labour"; the one issue above all others which persuaded huge numbers of Labour voters to vote out.

Why was this the case? Because poor working class ex industrial areas are always hosts to the most massive influx of immigrants.....not the leafy suburbs of Kent nor the wild and windy cliffs of middle class Cornwall.


But all that is about to change, as they say in Glesca......Stevie!...."Yer tea's oot"! (Peter McDougall.."Just a boy's game")

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

It may have escaped your attention, Teribus, that we actually NEED the people who come in. Go into the next care home you pass and listen to the accents of the staff. Go into any large hospital and do the same. Try motorway service areas at eleven at night when only your cup of Costa will keep you going. Come down to Cornwall in March and see who's picking the daffs that you buy for a quid a bunch, bogof, from Morrisons (you can buy me a pint while you're at it). Find out who's bringing in the spud and cauliflower harvest in Lincolnshire in August. Then go down to JobCentrePlus and ask if you can have have the claimant figures for true Brits versus immigrants. You'd be amazed. Immigrants are here TO WORK. They are doing insecure, unpleasant and low-paid work, quite often. At the other end of the spectrum they are keeping the NHS afloat, in spite of the best efforts of this scumbag administration to quietly dismantle it. "Control who comes in" if you will, but have you actually HEARD how long it takes to train a hospital doctor from scratch, as if we actually had the training facilities in the first place? I'm not as old as you, but neither you nor I will live to see the day when net immigration falls significantly from today's numbers by dint of any "control mechanisms" we might contrive. It's only the economy, stupid, as it is now and as it always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

Glad I'm not going on holiday this month

Well I go on a business trip in two weeks and the costs are now a good bit above budget...

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 09:32 AM

The EU, thoroughly corrupt, totally unaccountable, spendthrift and inefficient. We have been in it for 43 years continually bleating about things being wrong with the EU as MGOH has done on this thread. The argument put forward by the politicians is that we are better off as members of the EU as we can change things from the inside. In the course of those 43 years we have managed to change S.F.A. - How long do want to give it? The EU continues to be - Thoroughly corrupt, totally unaccountable, spendthrift and inefficient.

Well I've been in this country for 65 years, and, for at least 43 of 'em, I've been bleating about our own corrupt and inefficient, self-serving and money-wasting governments. I've seen Polaris, then Trident, then Concorde, then the M25, then plans for HS2, more bloody runways, allowing irresponsible and unregulated bankers to run amok to wreck the economy, cash for questions, cronyism, not to speak of expenses claims cheating on an industrial scale, ignoring tax avoidance and evasion on an eye-watering scale - I won't go on. Oh yes, I can vote them out (though, irrelevantly I admit, I've never actually lived in a constituency in which the bloke I voted for got in), but just consider how few people even know who their MEPs are, let alone bother to vote for them. We are part, quite a big part at that, of the setup that makes and changes all the EU laws, so this pretence all the time that it's all done by a distant bunch of unaccountable and unelected bureaucrats is simply not true. Over 95% of EU laws have our full and enthusiastic consent, and, given that we are stuck with the bloody Tories, the only ones of those likely to be discarded are the ones that protect working people from exploitation. Of the very few laws that we don't agree with, we have modified many and had to reluctantly accept very few indeed. That's what being in a club of 28 means. We HAVE changed things by being at the table when undesirable things might otherwise have got through unmodified by our influence. No more of that, eh?. You don't just "change things" once there's a fait accomplis. You "change things" mostly by ongoing negotiation during processes.

Anyway, the IMF are sounding the alarm bells and we might just "achieve" parity with the dollar and the euro by the end of about next week. Four or five months ago I bought my euros at €1.40. Glad I'm not going on holiday this month. That's how much confidence the world has in our brexiting. As Kevin says, the man halfway to the ground from the roof of the skyscraper hasn't noticed any pain as yet. You are that man.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 08:35 AM

They won't if your xenophobic government carries on like this. Friends from the EU and the US who live and work here at the moment are feeling very unhappy and unwelcome in the current climate in the UK. This might not matter to a couple of right-wing little Englanders like you and Ake, but not does to those of us who value our diversity and common heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:15 AM

Stu - 05 Oct 16 - 06:54 AM

"People have been coming and going to and fro these islands for thousands of years, including people from asia, africa and closer to home of course."

Good heavens Stu you mean that"People have been coming and going to and fro these islands for thousands of years" before we became members of the EU - WOW!!!!! - Staggers back in amazement - Guess what Stu they still will continue "coming and going to and from these islands" after we leave, only then we will have a say in who comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:10 AM

Sorry Stu, but the inability of some people who should and do know better, to grasp the point, is just as sickening.

Never in our history have we had to absorb immigrants at such a high level and over such a limited timespan....at a juncture where our public services are under such extreme pressure.

You know that very well, yet harp on about racism and xenophobia as if you were personally the moral arbiter.

I have seen neither on this forum and very little in real life from thinking people.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:54 AM

People have been coming and going to and fro these islands for thousands of years, including people from asia, africa and closer to home of course.

This petty nationalism and xenophobia is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 03:38 AM

I'm sorry if my last post came across as grumpy and ill tempered Mr McGrath....I wasn't referring to you personally, and I know that you are a decent and thoughtful person, but surely the issue of "free movement of labour" is the crux of the problem.

In the future, no matter what government is in power, all our citizens will have to contribute to the best of their abilities. We will be unable to keep millions on benefits, the health service will be shaken to its roots and will be taken back to what was visualised by the founders. In short we will be forced to live within our means.

I hope this will also mean a change in our economic system to allow us to concentrate more on building a society in which every last one of us has a real stake.

Short term confidence tricks like "free movement" will not sustain our country for any length of time, while, as I said earlier denuding other countries of the labour required to service their own infrastructure.

The mantra of financial aspiration must not be the only driver, surely humanity is better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:13 AM

The EU, thoroughly corrupt, totally unaccountable, spendthrift and inefficient. We have been in it for 43 years continually bleating about things being wrong with the EU as MGOH has done on this thread. The argument put forward by the politicians is that we are better off as members of the EU as we can change things from the inside. In the course of those 43 years we have managed to change S.F.A. - How long do want to give it? The EU continues to be - Thoroughly corrupt, totally unaccountable, spendthrift and inefficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 06:20 PM

No I wouldn't, aken. I hope I'm wrong in thinking those kind of things are only too likely.

I didn't like quite a lot of things about the EU. I just thought it was the better choice. And there are some things I valued, such as some built-in protection for workers' rights, and against any attempt to bring back the death penalty. And also the guarantee of freedom of movement between countries.

On the other hand I don't like the restrictions on public ownership and so forth. I'd like an extension of democracy, which in some cases would mean an element of federalism, and in others the reverse, a reduced role for Brussels.

But that,s done and dusted. We're out (possibly not you, aken, up in Scotland, because I suspect you might well end up back in the EU, either in an independent Scotland, or in some kind of deal).

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 04:32 PM

Grow up the lot of you....you lost (emphasis mine)

Aha! Ake is adopting The Professor's Mantra!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

Grow up the lot of you....you lost, what about your precious democracy which you just love to spread around the globe?

Wouldn't you just love it if the economy collapsed, we all went back on a three day week and the kids were starving?

Might just give you all a smidgen of credibility back.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM

I'm reminded of a post I made about how some people were remarking that the fears about Brexit had been exaggerated, about a man jumping from a skyscraper overheard ib the course of the fall ro be sying "Well, it's all right so far." We ain't seen nothing yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 08:08 AM

And now the pound is plunging to long-time lows against the dollar over fears about brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 07:58 AM

My point wasn't that all those voting for Brexit were racists, but that much of the campaign was racist, and that opposition to racism was a very good reason to vote against it, in anticipation of the likelihood that a Brexit victory would encourage racists - which has turned out to be true, with a significant increase in attacks on immigrants, including killings, one in my home town.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 06:49 AM

Wanting to regulate the numbers coming into the country is not racist per se. But, in the referendum campaign, the leave side's narrative on this was very racist. A poster depicting a long line of refugees, mostly black and nowhere near the UK border, had the leading light of the leave campaign, Farage, standing proudly in front of it. The message of the poster was that we had to get back "control of our borders." Well we already have cast-iron control of our borders apropos of refugees. Ask the thousands in the Calais jungle or the millions in camps in Turkey or Lebanon how easy it is to get across our borders. The poster was deliberately conflating the refugee crisis with the perfectly legitimate movement of EU citizens in order to come here to work, who are not mostly black and who don't form long snaking lines. A racist lie. It's also lies to claim that EU citizens come here to live on benefits. Overwhelmingly they do not. Pro rata, the numbers of immigrants who are on out-of-work benefits are minuscule compared with the numbers of UK citizens in that position. Immigrants are blamed for "driving down wages," when the reality is that wages are always decided by their UK employers. Immigrants are blamed for the housing crisis, when the reality is that successive governments have, for decades, failed to build anything like enough houses. Immigrants are blamed for putting a strain on the NHS, when the reality is that the Tories are letting the NHS go to the dogs (compare waiting times now with waiting times pre-Coalition, for example). Next time you visit a hospital have a quick butchers at the staff in every department, then still tell me that immigrants are "putting a strain." Yes we don't train enough doctors and nurses (along with lots of other skilled workers). Oh yes, you can bet your arse that there'll be plenty of exemptions for them to come here to work when we finally "take back control" (though, of course, we'll never see the day...)

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:56 PM

Bobad's post is based on his complete misunderstanding of earlier exchanges. I'm not surprised, but don't blame me please, Kevin!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Do you seriously think Mr McGrath that "racism" was the driver for the thousands of Labour voters who voted for Brexit?

I cant believe that you are amongst those who see any attempt to regulate the numbers of immigrants coming into this country as simply "racism".....that is an extremely insulting position to adopt.

As a socialist, I would have thought that the infrastructures of the countries from which the mass immigrants originate would be a concern to you? Do you think that our parasitical use of immigrant labour which leaves these countries short of people to run their public services and maintain their infrastructure is in line with socialist thinking?
I think that we and they should be training our own people so that they can contribute fully to each society.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

The value of PMs is that they allow personal squabbles to be carried out without messing up threads. They don't belong here. When they take place in a thread beyond a certain level, that's generally a signal for moderaters to close things down.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:21 AM

As ever, you don't know what you're talking about. There's a nice thread that Keith started where you can go and say your stupid things to your heart's content. Leave this one alone is my advice until you can say something constructive and of substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM

They'd have done precisely what they did do. I see no reason whatsoever not to believe Jeremy Corbyn meant every word he said in the Brexit campaign. Whatever the failings of the EU leaving was the wrong choice, he repeatedly said, and as someone who like Jeremy voted to get out in the previous referendum, I agree with him, and I believe he meant it.

Aside from annything else, the vote gave the Green Light to the racists who infest this country. That would have been quite enough to determine my vote. When Brexit actually kicks in, rather being on the horizon that's going to get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:16 PM

Some of us are trying to have a grown-up conversation here, akenaton. So do consider toddling off to Keith's toxic Whither Labour thread, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:55 PM

Come on Mr McGrath what would the "Blairite" MP's have done with him if he had voted with his conscience? He would not have lasted two minutes.

Still think he made the wrong choice though, the EU is a capitalist construct designed to keep those rusty old wheels turning to give an impression of economic growth etc.

He wants to "wipe clean" the wrong slate.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

"Only thing about that GSS Corbyn in all probability voted "Leave"

Prove it. You have absolutely no call for saying that. Bloody prove it, charlatan.

So where are we today? Tories breaking every promise on the economy they ever made. Six years on, they can't fix the deficit but still have to screw the poor. They have to borrow billions, the Tory bête noir. "Paying off the deficit" won't happen by 2020 or anything like, as if we didn't already know it five years ago. Osborne, flavour of the month last summer, is yesterday's man. The pound is plummeting day by day. We have a million on zero-hours contracts. Six million on less than the living wage. Job security demolished. Millions on "self-employed," basically so that employers don't have to pay their stamps. Millions on bogus "apprenticeships" which means that, unless you're bloody lucky, you'll be spending your days sweeping the floor and making the tea, on precisely the same pay as you get on jobseekers, only they won't let you have that, will they. Foreign companies threatening to leave. Hard talk from the EU. Up shit creek without a bloody paddle. But never mind. Teribus and his little Englanders will sort us out. It's just that they haven't told us how, yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:43 PM

I think he was telling the truth. Why not? So far as the EU is concerned I don't know anyone who voted to Remain who doesn't see it that way - plenty wrong with the EU, but the right thing was to stay.

If David Mameron had had a minimal grasp of tactics Brexit would have been defeated. For example votes for 16 and 17 years would have done, and there'd very likely have been a majority for that in the Commons. He could have accepted calls by the Scots, the Welsh and Northern Ireland for any result to be dependent on all the nations agreeing, on the basis of holding the UK together. He could have pushed for a minimum winning margin for any change.

The Brexit victory was down to David Cameron, not Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:35 PM

Self interest surely. As Mr T says Mr Corbyn has always been anti EU and against Labour Party policy, but to say so in the circumstances which prevailed would have meant instant crucifixion(in the political sense of the word).

I think the issue was important enough for Mr Corbyn to make a stand over it.....he may yet regret not doing so as Old Labour votes haemorrhage to UKIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:04 PM

No, he was not "a lover of the EU", in common, I am sure, with most Remain voters. The EU as it stands is flawed - but in the choice between Remain and Leave, it was the better choice.

If the Remain vote had just been "lovers of the EU" the gap would have been far far wider.

Corbyn set out to get people who questioned the wisdom of staying in the EU to vote to do so. And with 63% of Labour voters going for Remain, he helped make it a narrow victory for Brexit. If Cameron had managed to persuade only a bit more than 42% the Brexiters would have been beaten.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:31 PM

So Kevin, on the 21st June this year Corbyn did not lash out at EU on tax, migrants and sovereignty on a Sky News Q&A?

No lover of the EU direct quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:24 PM

claim that a criticism of Israel should be defined as antisemitism?

But no-one does claim that!
It would be ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

It's actually pretty clear that Jeremy Corbyn voted to stay, as he called for people to do. Like Corbyn, most Remain voters believed that the EU is far from perfect, but that for all that it was a better choice than Brexit.

The fact that Corbyn was actively saying this probably influenced many wavering Labour voters to opt for Remain. If he'd come out as an uncritical fan of the EU it would very likely have pushed many the other way. Aside from anything, he would have been seen as another lying unprincipled politician. Critical support of the EU made sense. If the choice had been between Brexit and EU adoration, the margin for Brexit would have been far wider.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

Only thing about that GSS Corbyn in all probability voted "Leave". Just how much of a hypocrite do you want him to be - he has always been anti-EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

But what about when other Jews say the same thing, and criticise claim that a criticism of Israel should be defined as antisemitism?

It's as if criticism of Poland or Ireland was defined as necessarily being motivated by anti-catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

it is my opinion, that if Corbyn, took a mandate for a remain in europe or remain in EEA, He could win the next uk general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

Kevin,
My point there,Keith, wasn't whether Jackie Walker knew that Holocaust Day is, officially at least, about all genocides.

My point was that she should not have asserted publicly that it is not, based only on her own prejudice which was proved false.

To make that false statement was a slander against Jews and her wilful ignorance does not excuse it.

It would be equally wrong to denigrate Nakba Day for not commemorating other comparable events without checking first.
(I have checked, and it does not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

"Leave this one alone is my advice until you can say something constructive and of substance." - Steve Shaw

Was that last bit directed at Smeg F.?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:21 AM

As ever, you don't know what you're talking about. There's a nice thread that Keith started where you can go and say your stupid things to your heart's content. Leave this one alone is my advice until you can say something constructive and of substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 10:41 AM

.....they are predicated on a false definition of antisemitism

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:53 AM

Bobad's link and Rich's book don't mean a thing as they are predicated on a false definition of antisemitism. Until the pro-Israel lobbies can get that right, which they show no intention of doing, pursuing this in this thread is pointless,

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

are you ever going to actually contribute anything to a thread

OK, how about THIS, T-Bird? Just more "self-hating Jews", I suppose?

-------------

Israel Quietly Legalizes Pirate Outposts

By Isabel Kirshner, Aug 30, 2016

The retroactive legalization is seen by anti-settlement groups as a methodical effort by the government to change the map by entrenching the outposts that spread across the West Bank.

Today, more than 40 Orthodox Jewish families live in Mitzpe Danny, one of a string of outposts on a strategic ridge with breathtaking views southwest to Jerusalem's Mount of Olives and east all the way to Jordan. They are part of an expansive network of about 100 outposts established mostly over the past two decades without government authorization.

Ziv Stahl, the research director at Yesh Din, one of the left-wing advocacy groups, said "they are authorizing them in disguise."
Pointing to other Israeli measures, including the demolitions of unauthorized Palestinian structures in the West Bank, she added, "We see it as a very gradual move toward annexation."

A government-commissioned 2005 survey by Talia Sasson, a former state prosecutor, counted at least 105 outposts that were established in "blatant violation of the law" and called for "drastic steps," including the immediate removal of those on private lands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-outposts-mitzpe-danny.html

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:52 AM

Now then: let's discuss Bubo's "Jewish Problem".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:46 AM

There are "quite a lot of different Lefts," says Rich, "and there are still a lot of people on the Left who want to combat anti-Semitism. I don't think we should concede the idea that the 'Stop the War' Left and the Momentum [Jeremy Corbyn's inner circle activists] Left is the only true Left, and that anyone else is a right-winger. That's the insult they use. There is an assumption of bad faith and dishonesty on all sides."

Rich's bottom line, however, is that extreme anti-Israel advocacy and rhetoric "will always impact on British Jews in a way that is anti-Semitic." It is definitely the case, he writes, "that some on the Left do not recognize anti-Semitism even when it comes from their own mouths."

And he adds that Labour is going to have to decide how — and if — to win back disaffected Jews, whose relationship with the party has "collapsed" in the past 12 months.

"I'm fed up with hearing Jeremy Corbyn saying he condemns all forms of anti-Semitism and then not seeing any action," Rich says. "Commissioning a fairly superficial report [the Chakrabarti report] and then not really implementing any of its findings, doesn't count.

"A charitable interpretation is that they [Corbyn's inner circle] just don't get it," he says. "A cynical interpretation is that they get it, and they find it quite useful. I don't feel in a position to say which of those interpretations is correct."

The Left's Jewish problem

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:02 AM

Oh dear yet another unsubstantiated accusation - in what way "sour" pray tell.

You could of course start by pointing out anything of worth that ol' Smeg has contributed, but I think that you'd be hard pressed, still should keep you gainfully employed for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:32 AM

We could say the same about you. You are getting nastier and more pointlessly aggressive by the day. Whatever "valid" contributions you think you're making, they're going down the plug with some pretty foul bath water. And no, I will not trade insults with you in this thread that you are doing so much to sour.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:03 AM

As you appear to be in name calling mood Smeg - the truth can often be "boring" and "predictable".

One question for you though, are you ever going to actually contribute anything to a thread on this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM

Yup. Same old BooSpew. Predictable & boring.