BS: Labour party discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:32 PM

she couldn't possibly know what was happening because she was inside the hospital -

She was marched from the hospital through and out of the camp.
She saw a single bulldozer working, but saw no bodies being buried.
She saw no Israelis in the camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:09 PM

You have yet to answer.

Yes I have, reread for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

The laws of Israel are one thing, bobad, but what actually happens on the ground is another matter, and is what actually matters. We've been here before. There are massive disparities in schooling, in school transport, in employment opportunities, in housing, in unemployment and in pay, not to speak of mistreatment at checkpoints and the existence of forbidden areas for non-Jews to live in. No doubt you'll be telling me that it's all lies and propaganda. Unfortunately, as I've posted here before, it's all rather well-documented. I asked you whether or not you believed in full equality in Israel for Arab-Palestinians. I didn't ask you for Chomsky's opinion or what the law says. You have yet to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 01:12 PM

I have alwas had absolute contempt for the likes of David Irving - the Nazis slaughtered Jews, Gypsies, trades Unionists, the medically or mentally "unfit".... anybody who didn't measure up to the aspirations of The Reich - Irving took away the dignity of the dead by defending the actions of their killers.
You and your mates fit into this category perfectly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:41 PM

For christs sake Keith (I thought believing in him meant not telling lies) - she couldn't possibly know what was happening because she was inside the hospital - she couldn't possibly see from the top of the hospital - I think you tried to claim the map showed it.....
A whole string of excuses for why her testimony was unbelievable.
As I have just pointed out - she has dedicated her life to proving what happened - you have dedicated your life to proiving she isn't telling the truth.
"The dead were buried by the ICRC."
Nobody knows who buried the dead nor where they are buried - the Israelis made sure of that.
You have been given a dozen accounts of this fact - you have only offered denials based on the Israeli claim that they didn't do it.
"What eye witness have you found for dozers burying bodies?"
Eye witness accounts from the survivors, which of course don't count as they are not Israelis and they contradict their claims.
Piss of Keith - we're finished here
I sincerely hope for your sake that there is no God.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:30 PM

Jim,
Yes you have - she couldn't possibly ave seen what she said she could see - remember?

I have never said that about her.

The bulldozers have been verified as being used to bury the bodies - over and over again.

No they have not. You made that up.
The dead were buried by the ICRC.

You have only offered denials
I have offered the eye witness accounts of Siegel and Fisk.

I have researched reports - where is your witness

Siegel and Fisk.
What eye witness have you found for dozers burying bodies?
None Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:20 PM

"If you mean Ellen Siegel, I have not dismissed her testimony."
Yes you have - she couldn't possibly ave seen what she said she could see - remember?
She had dedicated her life to proving what happened - you apparently have dedicated yours to proving she is telling lies.
The bulldozers have been verified as being used to bury the bodies - over and over again.
You have only offered denials
I have researched reports - where is your witness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

You and your friend has dismissed Jewish nurse, Ellen Shapiro as a liar, ignored all the eye witness statements

If you mean Ellen Siegel, I have not dismissed her testimony.
Likewise Robert Fisk.
They both saw only one bulldozer, neither saw bodies being buried, and neither saw Israelis in the camp.
Who is your eye witness?
That 50s pop singer Helen Shapiro?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 11:42 AM

You're going to have to come up with something better than self-promoting propaganda to dispute the facts you are studiously ignoring.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Do you deny that the laws of Israel guarantee civil and political liberties for all citizens, regardless of race, religion, gender or creed? Or are you rejecting it because it comes from a Jewish source - and we know what those Jews are like - right?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 10:36 AM

The Jewish Virtual Library -"one of whose "principal objectives is to enhance Israel's image by publicizing novel Israeli approaches to problems" (unquote" you need to ne joking!!
Did you never hear the saying "self praise is no recommendation"?
You're going to have to come up with something better than self-promoting propaganda to dispute the facts you are studiously ignoring.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 09:19 AM

In a region of autocracies and theocracies, Israel shines as a beacon of freedom and hope in the Middle East. Its diverse culture, open society and guaranteed civil and political liberties for all citizens, regardless of race, religion, gender or creed, follows closely to Western democratic tradition. It's liberal democracy, in fact, is the main reason that Israel has been able to have remarkable economic development despite being in a neighborhood surrounded by uncompromising enemies.

Israel's Liberal Democracy

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:59 AM

Sorry - didn't link that
Hopes and strategies for a future in Palestine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:57 AM

"Arabs, as do all ethnic groups in Israel, have full equality "
INEQUALITY REPORT
ETHNIC CLEANSING of BEDOUINS
DATABASE of 50 DISCRIMINATORY LAWS
"They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel"
How ******* unreasonable of them!!
"What Norman Finkelstein actually believes"
BDS says it's a nonviolent form of resistance, which is absolutely true, and it is not objectionable on those grounds. However, if the ends of BDS are seen as unjust, however nonviolent its means are, they will never get international support, it's never going to happen. Both the means and the ends have to be conceived by public opinion as being just.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:07 AM

Clear it up in a sentence. Just tell us that you believe in full equality for Arab Palestinians in Israel. Easy!

Arabs, as do all ethnic groups in Israel, have full equality so why would I not support it? That is the opposite of what is demanded for Jews by the BDS movement. Chomsky, like Finkelstein, must at least be given credit for recognizing the hypocrisy and anti-Semitism inherent in BDS which demands the right of return and equality for all Arabs in Israel knowing full well that the realization of their demands would mean the end of Israel.

To quote Norman Finkelstein:

"I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuousness. They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result? You know and I know what the result is. There's no Israel!"

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:45 AM

He was not an eye witness"
The only eye witnesses were those who were there
You and your friend has dismissed Jewish nurse, Ellen Shapiro as a liar, ignored all the eye witness statements and the Israeli soldiers' evidence, particularly thet which led to the making of "Waltz With Bashir"
The only evidence you are prepared to accept is from those faithful to the man who was indicted as being responsible and dismissed but later became Prime Minister
Or maybe you have a hot-line to the god you claim to believe in but who you show no signs of keeping his faith
Twisted or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:18 AM

Finishes with this as far as you pair of sickos are concerned Keith
Tou are doing for israel what Irving has done for Nazi Germany -the only difference is that he has had the nouse to fake his evidence whereas you just take the side of the perpetrator and deny anything that contradicts it.
Sabra Shatila was mass murder instigated and facilitated by the Israeli regime - end of story
WORST of JEWISH POGROMS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

Jim,

I deliberately linked you to the author of the bulldozers facts -

He was not an eye witness and does not say who was.
Well known eye witnesses, the nurse, the doctor, Fisk the journalist, just saw the one bull dozer and no Israelis in the camp.

Remember that your propaganda sites lied to you about what Morris said.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:17 AM

You are getting somewhat boring with your arrogance Teribus - at least you once used to be entertaining.
You have the facts - live with them or choke on them - your choice.
We are well aware that all these people are either liars and ignoramuses and that you have all the answers - you really are one of our unappreciated national treasures.
I well know what bulldozers are capable from personal experience - my father operated one for Wimpey's for the first twenty years of my life - he even tried (unsuccessfully) to teach me the basics once).
One of his jobs was to level out the dredgings from The Manchester Ship Canal and BURY the harder, larger stuff.
True - I wasn't there to see him do that, so it's quite possible he was lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:01 AM

Bulldozers Jim? You have in the past provided "links" that put widely varying numbers of bulldozers being used (Think the highest number was something like 13 of them). Pretty high density of bulldozers considering the footprint of the Sabra-Shatila refugee camp in 1982 was something like one square kilometre.

That Franklin Lamb, is he the same one who said he was there but wasn't. You'll introduce the American Nurse next, you know the one who stated quite clearly that IDF troops dragged Palestinian and Lebanese doctors and nurses out of the hospital she was in, took them away and they were never seen again - yet at the end of the massacres carried out solely by Lebanese Christian Falangist Militia forces - ALL DOCTORS AND ALL NURSES in the hospital were unharmed and accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:12 AM

Clear it up in a sentence. Just tell us that you believe in full equality for Arab Palestinians in Israel. Easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:03 PM

Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel

You seem to be having a problem with comprehension. No one has said that Chomsky doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel. It was stated that he rejects BDS because it has that as one of it's demands which he believes is untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:58 PM

If anyone can give me a quote from Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel, I'd be both interested and severely disappointed to read it.

Just give Bubo or possibly CowFartBruce a bit of time, Steve, and they'll invent a quote for you out of whole cloth, gratis.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:01 PM

Well I haven't had all night, but as far as I can make out Chomsky is out of sympathy with the BDS movement on several grounds, though not all. Now you'd think from bobad's post, quoted by me just then, that Chomsky has abandoned any idea of a fair and equal society in Israel with Arab Palestinians enjoying equal rights. This is just not the case. He does think that BDS is not the right way to go in that regard. Now you wouldn't think that, would you, reading bobad's post. It's a dishonest post and it contains a monster slip-up in that he clearly casts himself as racist. If anyone can give me a quote from Chomsky in which he clearly states that he doesn't believe in equality for Palestinians in Israel, I'd be both interested and severely disappointed to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 07:39 PM

"I agree with Chomsky's rejection of BDS which he bases on the grounds of it's support of UN General Assembly Resolution 194 and it's demand for recognition of the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality."

That's what you said. No demurring, no qualifying. You gave us the grounds on which you think he rejects BDS and your post clearly, clearly, CLEARLY means that you agree with those grounds. Otherwise you would have said you didn't, or you wouldn't have posted them at all. You are bang to rights. Tell us you made a mistake or failed to clarify and we'll drop it. As it stands, and if you don't back down, it makes you racist, no messing about. It means that you want to see Arab-Palestinians continue to be second-class citizens in Israel with no rights to equality. All your posts on Israel suggest to us that this is indeed the kind of sentiment you cling to. Calling us names is no way to go. A careful, calm clarification is what's needed, should your hubris allow. Let's see how you get on with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:16 PM

Bubo, one more time grab a dictionary and look up "projection".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:47 PM

Smeg, I suggest you look up "smear" and "slander".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:22 PM

Bubo, grab a dictionary and look up "projection".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:21 PM

Bubo, best enroll in a review course in English composition, grammar, syntax and English comprehension. You apparently don't understand what you are saying/posting.

Oh, I understand it perfectly well, I also understand perfectly well what you are trying to do just like what you tried to do with associating me with Trump. You showed us what you are made of.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:17 PM

You agree with his rejection.

That's all what I said - the rest is from Chomsky.

Nice try though.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:16 PM

"Once again you are using extreme propaganda sites.
They tell lies Jim."
I deliberately linked you to the author of the bulldozers facts - just as you deliberately ignored it
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon. Lamb earned his Law Degree at Boston University and his LLM, M.Phil, and PhD degrees at the London School of Economics. Following three years at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Lamb was visiting fellow at the Harvard Law School's East Asian Legal Studies Center. Lamb is the author of Israel's 1982 War in Lebanon, International Legal Responsibility for the Sabra-Shatila Massacre, The Price We Pay. His latest book, The Case for Palestinian Civil Rights in Lebanon, is due out shortly (february 2014). Dr Lamb is a visiting Professor of International Law at the Faculty of Law, Damascus University and volunteers with the Sabra-Shatila Scholarship Program."
Now you go and find someone other than Israel or its supporters to prove it wrong.
AND ONCE MORE YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE ANOTHER ARTICLE - THIS TIME FROM THE ISRALI PAPER, HAARETZ
Further as promised
ETHNIC CLEANSING in ISRAEL
Keep it up, you're doing fine!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:01 PM

Jim, no eye witness is identified in that article as seeing that.
Once again you are using extreme propaganda sites.
They tell lies Jim.

Please find something on a reputable site, or identify the eye witness concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:53 PM

"it is wrong to suggest he disagrees with everything Chomsky says."

I agree with Chomsky's rejection of BDS which he bases on the grounds of it's support of UN General Assembly Resolution 194 and it's demand for recognition of the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

There you are in black and white. What you said. You agree with his rejection. You give us the grounds. No demurring or qualification from you. Racism. I'll check Chomsky later (you do have a habit of mischaracterising) but you don't need any checking. Very clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:51 PM

Bubo, best enroll in a review course in English composition, grammar, syntax and English comprehension. You apparently don't understand what you are saying/posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:50 PM

Dave, there is no danger of us falling out over such a minor misunderstanding.
Let us sort it out.
If you are unable to answer the questions I just put to you again, let us start again.

Someone used the word "rampant" in a linked article.
I absolutely accept that fact.
What point would you have liked me to address? I promise to thoughtfully and honestly address that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:45 PM

Whoops - forgot my promise
ETHNIC CLEANSING or DEMOCRACY HAARETZ
By the way
"That is a lie Jim. A single bulldozer was loaned to the militia, but no Israelis were involved."
You have been supplied with an eyewitness account that up to ten bulldozers were seen on the site
There were certanly more than the one Israel claimed.
"On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982 Israeli Mossad agents inside the camp actually were observed driving three of the bulldozers in a frantic attempt to assist the Christian militia in covering up evidence of the crime before the exported international media arrived on the scene."
By FRANKLIN LAMB
TWENTY NINE YEARS LATER
Can you hurry up with your denials and refusals to respond - I have a list of links as long as your arm ready for posting?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:41 PM

I think it started further back than that when you pulled me up for using the word endemic but, honestly, there is absolutely no gain in continuing down this path. It does not matter how it started. It finishes here.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:31 PM

LOL........somebody has totally lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:31 PM

"According to the IHRA definition, "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." is anti Semitic"
Avvording to all definitions of antisemitism, it is antisemitic to associate the Jewish People with the actions of Israel
You do it, Bodad does it, Israel does it......
While you people continue to do it you will make shit of any definition and you will continue to expose the jEwish People to attacks
If you think I in any way concerned at being described as an antisemite by someone who has accused the Jewish politicians, as a body, of refusing to identify the antisemitism that is claimed to exist in the Labour Party for the love of that party - think again - that is probably the most antisemitic statement that has ever been made on this forum - AND YOU MADE IT
"Just over 27 percent of those surveyed in September said they agreed with the idea that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians was no different than Nazi persecution of Jews during the Holocaust."
I'm sure that was not intended to confirm what I have just said, but that is exactly what it does do.
Israel has branded the Jewish People as being responsible for their crimes - in doing so, they make shit of any definition.
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
Leading
Israelis, ex Prime Ministers, Military men, ex heads of security, the liberal Israeli press, Jewish intellectuals, Holocaust survivors and their families..... and many many more Jews, are making just this claim
You once described the phrase "Self hating Jew" as applied to modern Jewish critics of Israel, as having been made up by me - it is now a standard knee-jerk defence of all Israeli crimes
I'm not Jewish, but these are the people I identify with, not the ethnic cleansers of Israel and certainly not people like you and Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:23 PM

We are telling it to YOU.

You are trying to use your friend Carroll's tactic of Made Up Shit® to smear me. It is cheap and dirty.

I said I agree with Chomsky's rejection of BDS. I then posted Chomsky's rationale for his rejecting it. I didn't say I agreed with his rationale only his rejection. But you know that, don't you. You are a lying prick.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:23 PM

Dave, I have not changed anything, but I may not have explained clearly enough what I meant.
Sorry for that.

Your original question was "why are people saying it is rampant within the Labour party I wonder?"
Why expect us to answer for other people? It is reasonable to point out that none of us here have argued that, and to wonder why you ask us.

Is it "people" anyway? So far, in the whole world, you have only identified one person who said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:18 PM

Keith, I am not going to fall out with you over something so trivial but if you cannot understand what I am trying to say there is no point in continuing. You will only end up changing something else and I will end up frustrated. Please feel free to claim a victory as I consider it a loss when I fail to communicate so severely!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:11 PM

We are telling it to YOU. You said you agreed with Chomsky and you made it clear that you oppose the fundamental right to equality in Israel for Palestinian Arab citizens. That is an explicitly racist viewpoint by any measure.

That's what you said. I'll check out Chomsky later. The chips are in the oven.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:03 PM

Absolutely, Bubo, Yahweh forfend that anyone should extend fundamental rights and equality to the Palestinians.

Tell it to Chomsky.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:01 PM

the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

Absolutely, Bubo, Yahweh forfend that anyone should extend fundamental rights and equality to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:56 PM

Jim,
According to the IHRA definition, "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." is anti Semitic.

In posts to this thread on 8 October you did just that.

Also you knowingly lie about Israel.

The Israeli Army assisted in digging the mass graves in order to hide their participation in this massive war crime,
That is a lie Jim. A single bulldozer was loaned to the militia, but no Israelis were involved.

the Israelis have skulked behind the Jewish People to keep themselves from being tried for crimes against humanity
Another lie Jim. You are just consumed by hatred and will say anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:56 PM

From Carroll's link:

Just over 27 percent of those surveyed in September said they agreed with the idea that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians was no different than Nazi persecution of Jews during the Holocaust.

So, that would reflect the number of anti-Semites in the survey as Germany is one of the 31 countries adopting the IHRA definition.

Comparing Israel to Nazis is anti-Semitic, 31 Western states declare

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:43 PM

Good to see you admit your racism at last.

Idiot!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:32 PM

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/51687-141120-poll-israel-s-treatment-of-palestinians-similar-to-nazi-persecution-of-jews

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:27 PM

Jim, by the definitions of anti Semitism long used by UK police and now being enshrined in UK law, you are guilty of anti-Semitism."
I have never attacked Jews in any shape or form - by any definition, your accusation is antisemitic.
All your denials have been dealt with a thousand times - the only evidence you have ever offered are denials by Israel - by your own admission "I'm just putting the other side"
You are now confirming your dishonesty on this by refusing to even respond to the proved ethnic cleansing that is taking place
As promised - I will continue to provide further evidence of those crimes and

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:12 PM

Good to see you admit your racism at last.