Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:26 PM

That's the big problem for researchers; we have plenty of evidence that the ballads were sometimes edited/recreated/made up completely by the editors like Scott, but we have no way of knowing to what extent. You can get a good idea by reading carefully Child's headnotes, particularly in the first 3 volumes.

There's an awful lot of material in there that has no evidence whatsoever for oral tradition, and quite often the supposed oral extant versions come from only a few suspect sources.

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:33 PM

That's true.
I know how tempting it is to change something in a song to suit your liking (or support your own ideas of how the song should go).

I also know how hard it is to admit to your audience that the song you performed never was that epic in "real tradition" and that you added all of the fancy verses and supernatural references by yourself.

I guess we'll never know how much of the Scottish Daemon Lover was make-believe from Walter Scott and friends and what was really found in a traditional singers repertoire at the time.

As much as I like the song, I just find it hard to believe that the awful "A Warning for Married Women" broadside turned into something so grand purely by oral traition in such a short timeframe.

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:04 PM

Most people can separate the researcher cap from the singer cap, but for those of us who do both equally we have to make difficult choices. It leads to a mild form of schizophrenia.

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 02:54 PM

I assumed it was Bert too - though that doesn't stop me using it. There's a question mark over the 'cloven foot' verses in Child too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:52 PM

Thanks for the quick answer, Steve.
That's what I assumed, I just wanted to be sure.

It's a good verse and it bridges a small gap in the storyline, but it's not part of any traditional version, then.
Mr Loyd really had a knack for rewriting Folksongs without making it seem artifical.

I just wish he had been more honest about it.
But that would've destroyed the magic, I guess...

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:23 PM

If you read Dante's Inferno when he reaches the inmost circle of Hell, there is Satan, hugely monstrous, cased in ice. I suspect that Lloyd was trying to capture this image of the Demon in his text.

Subject: RE: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:27 PM

In all of the 145 versions given in Bronson the ship simply sinks to the bottom of the sea and there is no hint of this stanza at all. The most likely origin of this verse is Bert Lloyd who invented a whole folk scenario of his own. However in many people's opinions (me included) by and large his interventions are a vast improvement. To me this extra verse adds to the drama at the end of the ballad and is an extension of what is implied in some versions.

As a singer I applaud a great man, but as a researcher I regret he didn't leave us with any indication of which bits were his own creation and therefore his output for researchers into song history is worthless.

Subject: Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover'
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:07 AM

Hello,
I was wondering about a verse in certain versions of Child 243, "The Daemon Lover".
The verse in question is:

And as she turned herself round about,
So taller and tall he seemed to be.
Until the tops of that shining ship
No taller were than he.

In A. L. Loyd's recording(s) of the song.

Or:

And aye he grew and higher he grew
And sae tall he seemed to be
Till the tapmost mast a' that bonnie ship
Nae taller was than he.

In Ewan MacColl's version on Blood & Roses, Vol. 5.

The only other recording which has this verse is from Joe Rae, here:
http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/67188/2

Joe's version is almost word for word Child F, from Scott's Minstrelsy, except for three verses of unknown origin, including this one.

It doesn't appear in any of Child's texts. Nor is it in the Glenbuchat Ballads "Lady Jane" text.
So where does it come from?

Does somebody know of a traditional text that I might have missed?
I'm just curious if this is a modern invention or not.

By the way, I recently found out that the Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection has been digitized and is now available for public listening via the Internet Archive.
If you like this ballad as much as I do you might want to listen to this recording of Mrs. Edith Ballinger Price singing her unique version of it:
https://archive.org/details/HHFBC_tapes_D46A

It's the first track on Side B.

Whether this is traditional or learned from print I don't know, but I think it's absolutely beautiful.
I just wanted to share it with those who didn't know about it.

There are countless treasures in the Flanders Collection, including Child Ballads. It's always hit and miss with the audio quality though, it ranges from moderate to unlistenable...