Organisers. Why do we do it?

Subject: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 11:03 PM

I sometimes wonder why organisers of folk events bother.

I don't think there are many of us who get any financial benefit from it any more. Maybe back in the 60s and 70s they might, but in most cases, not now. They might recover expenses if they are lucky but that is about it. Those who try to make a profit from it are exposed by the very high prices they try to charge. I won't mention Whitby FF. Oops. I just did.

Talking on air to Mark Roger who organises Howden Live last night I asked him that question. 'Why do you do it?'

His answer? Well, it's a past-time. Some play golf. I organise events. I seem to have a talent for it.

I think we should be very grateful to people like Mark, because without them we wouldn't have the venues to perform in.

Roland Walls who looks after the Black Swan Folk Club in York is another one who deserves our appreciation and should get a medal for all he has done over the years.

I am sure you could nominate many others.

Throughout the country I'm sure there are dozens of others who get little rewards for their blood sweat and tears except the pleasure they get from seeing a club or event actually happening, because they put their faith, time and effort on the line.

Well done folks.

And thank you.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 02:40 AM

This is a very good question! The folk world could not really work without the countless hours donated by others of varying competence ~ goodwill is a terrific value/asset

Ray

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 03:31 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally folk music is my life.
It ticks all the boxes for me and sometimes if you don't do it no-one else will. Nowadays I do it to give something back and almost as a guilt trip for not encouraging the youngsters more when I was younger.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:03 AM

The world is divided between the majority who say "somebody should do something" and the minority who say "it should be done, lets do it".

Sometimes, when I end up working harder than I ever would when I had a day job, I do wonder why the hell I am doing it. Better not to wonder too much or I might end up giving up and getting a big chunk of my life back.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

For me, it has been a life-long exercise in self-indulgence.
I love the songs and down the years that love has almost reached obsession level.
I remember someone commenting on Sam Larner's singing 'Butter and Cheese and All', "He must have sung it every week (the The Fisherman's Return) for most of his life, but it still sounds as if he's only just discovered it".
Sums my feelings about folk song perfectly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:53 AM

This thread is nestling quite cosily next to one titled "Songs about Insanity"!

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: GUEST,Mr H
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM

Echoing the feelings of a few above, I am happy to organise folky events because I want them to happen for my enjoyment along with others.

I don't aspire to gain payment as it's enough that others acquiesce to join me in these endeavours to make them mutually satisfying.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: GUEST,John D
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 12:09 PM

For many years, I helped to run a folk club, including serving behind the bar almost every week.

Apart from my fellow organisers (we bought each other drinks in turn), only one person, in all that time, ever offered to buy me a drink. And that was the young girlfriend of a visiting guest artist, who'd never met me before.

I find that rather sad! I could afford to buy my own drinks, so I didn't go thirsty; but I would have appreciated the gesture, just once in a while, as a way of saying 'thank you' for all my hard work over the years.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 03:03 PM

Surely the only reward one needs is the smiling happy faces of the performers and the audience. I know what you mean by obsession, Jim.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 04:19 PM

there have been a few names mentioned, but for longevity those you have mentioned are greenhorns, John Taylor has been running a folk club for 50 years and festivals for over 30, Vic and Tina Smith ran a folk club for about the same time, Ted and Ivy Poole have run a folk club for 50 years, Clive Pownceby has been involved for over 40 years.Alan castle has run Tenterden for 24 years.
I used to play regularly at York folk club years before and in the early part of Roland Walls takeover of the club, I recently had a request for a cd from someone who had seen me there in 1986.
I have played in other clubs in Yorkshire and Festivals in that county on numerous occasions since 1993, but have yet to encounter Roland Walls at any of my gigs or at any of the festivals I have been booked at bo,so unfortunately I have been unable to pass on my felicitations, I might have even presented him with a FREE pint.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:06 PM

You can buy me a free pint next time we meet at one of Richard Grainger's gigs, Dick, and I'll pass it on to Roland!

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:59 PM

your a great man for recycling then Tone? but thats not the yorkie way,
Ear all, see all, say nowt;
Eyt all, sup all, pay nowt;
And if ivver tha does owt fer nowt –
Allus do it fer thissen.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:12 PM

Yeah.... I Know.... but I'm not a Yorkie. I'm very much an ex-pat sufferner in these parts!

Arrived by narrowboat in 2009. Fell off it into the River Derwent. Decided to stay. Best decision I ever made!

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we dio it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 10:26 PM

i know but if you want to integrate with yorkies, you have to take up their habits, recycling Roland Walls Pint is a good start

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho Mask
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 02:51 AM

I never used to mind organising clubs and in a small way, still do run a couple of singaround type clubs although no bookings or any finance element. (Keeps your sanity that way.)

Many moons ago, my then wife and I got "lumbered" with the running of a rather large club whose finances were somewhat precarious. Plenty of opinions and advice available re booking big names but when one was a spectacular flop, these "advisors" were nowhere to be seen as I transferred funds from my own account to prevent an overdraft.

You live and learn.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:24 AM

As there are becoming less and less outlets where one can listen primarily to traditional folk music and song that is the reason, as well as the enjoyment and the friendship, for the twenty five years that I have been involved in helping run my present club. The reward is that there is still another venue where we can hear the likes of Len Graham, Rosin White, Jeff Wesley, Kevin & Ellen Mitchell and Jimmy Hutchinson (our guest in October)

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:35 AM

there are some who are in it for the money, masquerading as Folkies "from their youth". In fact I checked-out their history last weekend and the best I got from those close enough to verify was: "well, not folk clubs, but they went to concerts, like the Beatles"!

Not that I should single out any festival in Shropshire on a Bank Holiday but if you compere them with (say) an organiser of a "village" festival on the same days you see an equally astute businessman who was a Morris dancer, took over the running from his father and groomed his son to continue. It is all about integrity, Steve Heap has it and is nice with it, and others are just in it for the money, and are not always nice people, and it shows.

I think we should be issuing fulsome praise to those involved in organising Sidmouth. Something that size with such a variety of events must make money, enough to not make a loss and enough to cover extremes and eventualities. Global weirding being one of them. They claim to not employ people. Companies maybe, but there is a lot of work for little reward, and my thanks barely begins to reward them.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

Why do I maintain mister.red & cresby.com ?
Well, it is a hobby that fits my: other hobby, vocational years, creative streak & wish to be helpful. And as I back it up by asking organisers of clubs and sessions for information when at events - I have a "tribe" of friendly acquaintances, and we can all benefit from that.
Then there is the sartorial affectation - wot I calls corporate identity. It generates more friendly talk, I meet interesting people.
Over and above the expense of the hobby of being a Folkie, it is a small outlay financially (thankfully) and a lot timewise, which I am rich in.

Win, Win. And there's more:

Stroud Ceilidhs
Cheltenham Folk Club
Dursley Acoustic Music Night (DAMN)
Stroud Voices Folklore ish.

I am sure this would apply in other genres, but I rate the Folk world as more accepting, and friendly than most worlds. Why wouldn't I want to give as well as take?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:51 AM

(1) The Buzz that comes form a good evening
(2) Opportunity to get: up and coming talent, forgotten talent, and talent not seen outside of the local area, seen/heard.
(3) Getting to know people across the folk scene
(4) The impetus to be well rehearsed/practiced before performing songs/tunes
(5) Getting folk 'out there'

All in spite of:

(a)Surley venue staff
(b)Being personally criticized for club decisions/policy
(c)Having to turn out rain or shine or on deathbed to get a club ready for the night
(d)The stress of head-counting on a guest night.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 11:28 AM

In spite of -

Being personally criticized for actions of the venue owner and of organisers of other events at the same venue.

Regulars complaining about my publicity attracted outsiders who expected to listen to music thus spoiling their conversations. (that was the point where I told them to ***** their club, it folded within the month)

I couldn't keep away and within a few years I was helping run event again. When one customer says "thank you" on the way out it all seems worth while.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:03 PM

I would like to thank all the organisers that have booked me at their folk clubs since 1976, in 40 years Ican only recall two bad experiences out of thousands of clubs, thanks for giving me the opportunity to sing

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 06:46 AM

I have done most folky things - gone to clubs, been in groups, done morris & mumming. About 9 years ago I wanted to sit in a small room and sing old songs with friends and people who I hoped would become friends. I had done this before and thought it was time to do it again.

I still enjoy it and other things have grown from it:

Such as

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 05:30 PM

At the instigation of this thread Uncle Tone mentioned Whitby FF and then didn't.
Were you inferring that the organisers of whichever Whitby FF you did not mention are taking / making money from the festival?
Are the organisers aware this inference has been made?
What do you think Joe?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM

Make money from running folk events ???? . That's a laugh. the only thing to look for is to cover your costs, and hopefully have a small reserve to cover contingencies. I wound up my Folk Club because nobody came anymore. Various feedback on why, but the most ioncredulous is that I was charging too much. If folk weren't prepared to cough up six quid for a night's entertainment there was no point in continuing.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 11:49 AM

I would suppose that organisers of events are entitled to make money as long as no one is being ripped off. I assume the artists performing hope to ,whether the event is successful or not , though I know there might be some leeway and accommodation . But the same organiser that makes a profit on one event might make a loss on another. I wonder whether most folk events are composed largely of other performers who are looking to participate themselves, as compared to , say, rock audiences which have wider appeal to general music fans. I confess that I rarely go out purely only to hear others , and when I can get out , I hope to perform also. Though I don't mind paying , it is more for the opportunity to do a few songs myself, albeit , giving my attention to every other artist playing , featured or as myself for the chance to do our stuff. But often , though the featured act has a reputation, there is usually comparable talent from the floor.                                     And while we are appreciating organisers , here's a shout out for craysides Trevor and sue !

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,dunelmian
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM

I have run Durham City Folk Club since its early days. I am 72 now and have seen the club through thick and thin. Now, every six weeks or so we book a performer because we can,through a weekly raffle. I was the secretary of Durham City Folk Festival which failed through lack of sponsorship,and,without a break,the Durham Folk Party.Have I made any money: not I.All Ihave gained is an ever increasing repertoire of traditional songs and also some good friends.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 01:26 PM

Whitby was a great festival when EFDSS ran it, overall Malcolm made a good job of it too.
I do not know about the present organisers, because I havent performed there since Malcolm ran it.
I was one of the people along with the Wilsons that was involved in starting the successful singaround in the then "CuttySark".
I have played numerous whitby folk festivals and folk clubs over the years, I understand one of the organisers is Sue Knevett, who used to be involved with Cleethorpes[ now defunct].
All I know is that they are running a festival, which in itself is a plus.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea.
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 03:25 PM

Barry Lister and Dave Lowry have been involved,at management level,in running clubs in Devon for close to fifty years.I can only claim about forty or so but,I think,what the three of us have in common is that we still consider ourselves involved in the true and enduring UNDERGROUND music scene,as penned to describe the genre in the mid-sixties.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea.
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 03:33 PM

Furthermore;For me ,the true magic is when you sing to people who have no experience of English traditional song and the unique way in which it can be performed and you leave them spellbound,wondering what they did in life before they heard it.Doesn't always happen but we have experienced that with many people and it's thrilling and life affirming.
And I would go miles in a night to sing with or listen to the great Tom Addison,truly a prince among singers of traditional song.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

The question to Uncle Tone still begs an answer.

The same applies to Joe although not being the originator of the thread perhaps he may not be following it.

It still begs the question why such an inference was allowed to go unchallenged by him.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 06:07 PM

I don't think you know what 'begging the question' means anonymous Guest Guest.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 08:31 PM

EGO

There is also the "fascilitator," "conduite," administrator Part that keeps one employed and never exposes one to "the slings and arrows" suffered on the main-stage.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 03:47 AM

Gargoyle, incorrect, some organisers were/are performers, MacColl/Seeger, Alan Bell, Dick Miles, Richard Grainger, Wilson Family,Johnny Handle,Ron Angel, PeteCoe, Keith Kendrick etc

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 06:23 AM

I think to add to Dick's list are the many organisers who are also local performers and MCs at their events, and who often take on the difficult opening warm-up spots, fret over running orders, attendance figures and over-running etc., put up guest artists in their own homes without any reimbursement and all for the love of it, usually without wanting to make a penny out of any of it for themselves.

Boodly folk heroes, every one of them!

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 07:33 AM

I agree,Tone

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Whitby still is a great festival - not noticeably changed from when Malcolm ran it.
If anyone is making money from it I would be very surprised, the organising committee or a lot of the people who not only perform but also help those of us who come back time after time to learn something new. Yes, they get a free ticket that they have no time to use.

Where else can you get a ticket for a full week so cheaply (next year £164 for pensioners - less than £20 / day)

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 08:21 AM

I don't organise a folk club, but I'm on the committee of our dance club and organise the callers rota. I do that because I want to see the dancing continue, and to pass on the help and encouragement I was given when I started calling.

I have also organised a few dance events - it is quite challenging, the worry about losing money but also not getting enough people to make the event enjoyable. The Have-a-Go dance play & call faded due to people who came having other calls on their time. 2 dozen - great, almost too crowded. 18-15 - OK. 12 or less not really on. Knowing when to advertise & hope things will pick up to pull the plug is hard.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 11:09 AM


Where else can you get a ticket for a full week so cheaply (next year £164 for pensioners - less than £20 / day)

Folkies often have a strange idea of what is "expensive", if anything Whitby are under selling themselves.

There are a few commercial promoters around putting on folk (in the broad sense) gigs. The ones who succeed charge higher prices and fill their venues with people who wouldn't be seen dead in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 02:44 PM

At many festivals you can get the equivalent of four or five great concerts for around £20 - I know this is isn't all folk is about or all festivals do - but for value for money it takes some beating.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 02:51 PM

Whitby 2017

Book after Aug 1st with a large tent or campervan over 6m it'll cost you £294.

Book before 1st May you can save yourself all of £9.

Plus, to my knowledge, this is the only festival that charges half-price for a media pass (plus camping charges) for giving them free advertising. Although I do wonder whether the BBC had to pay it this year?

Even Cambridge doesn't do that.

is that under selling?

http://whitbyfolk.co.uk/Book

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

Plus, to my knowledge, this is the only festival that charges half-price for a media pass (plus camping charges) for giving them free advertising. Although I do wonder whether the BBC had to pay it this year?

I may be doing Uncle Tone an injustice but that sounds very like somebody pissed off because he couldn't wangle a freebie.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM

I note that you say this from a nice safe anonymous position, Guest.

For the record, I present a carefully prepared popular three hour folk and blues show every week, freely promoting clubs, concerts and artists throughout North Yorkshire on DAB and also online. I also host a fortnightly club. I do all of this for nothing except the pleasure of doing it because, being a state pensioner, I can.

This year I have turned down far more offered 'freebies' than I ever have time to attend.

Why would I want to 'wangle' anything?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 04:06 AM

If I haven't said it before I do think huge thanks are due to all organisers of all folk events, dance song spoken word etc and this includes festivals and folk/concerty clubs

This is of course down to goodwill and has been proved that festivals in specific areas near/on towns and city sites brings huge tourism spend through the multiplier effect

The organisers of course need enough money to cover all overhead expenses (naturally arising costs of hire and other unavoidable expenses) as well as pa hire/ professional guests etc

The style of festival is of course bound by the provision of interest groups and as I have said elsewhere specific dance instrumental singaround and other attractions such as childrens entertainers and paid or not facilitators

Folk festivals are becoming more narrow in their provision of all encompassing attraction ~ this is of course their right ~ as it is for audience members to be more selective as to which festival best suits them

Ray

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 04:08 AM

Ah, you're adding in the cost of camping (and finding the most expensive price to quote)
My self catering flat cost me far more than my season ticket.
And it's not just 'let people put a tent up on some field' - may have been once but now people expect loos, showers, a field that doesn't flood*, and that they can get vans on and off without being bogged down**,stewarding for security etc. etc.


* memories of the 80s at Whitby
** more recent memories of Bromyard

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 05:04 AM

my experience of running a folk festival for 5 years is a profit of 75 euros, plus last week being diagnosed with high blood pressure.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Guest - begging the question
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 07:53 PM

Sorry Uncle Tone I do know what begging the question means - not sure you do.

So answer this very simple question - did you pay for your media pass?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 19 Sep 16 - 08:56 PM

Grow up guest guest. You won't bate me.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 01:25 AM

Hey, anonymous guest guest. Can I respectfully refer you to this Mudcat thread?

We could do with a response from the 'Other side'.


The Response

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM

It is bait by the way.

So please answer the question.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 04:21 PM

*plonk*

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Guest - begging the question
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 07:54 PM

How very strange - just a yes or no would have done.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 20 Sep 16 - 09:54 PM

Hey pard, round here it's not wangle, it's wrangle, like the jeans

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 04:41 AM

Folk festivals are becoming more narrow in their provision of all encompassing attraction ~ this is of course their right ~ as it is for audience members to be more selective as to which festival best suits them
I would say that "some" festivals are becoming more narrow, as a reaction to "some" festivals becoming more wide.

It is all down to why they do it, narrow is because the organisers know their subject and do it for the love. Wide is because it pulls in the money, and ensures viability. And then there is the cynical lot who use it as an income, for that very reason.

Take a look at Cropedy, barely folk but it provides enough income in one weekend to keep a viable post office and stores, two pubs and a car repair shop in the village. And that was their reason to start it.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:37 AM

Correct Mr Red

Ray

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:26 PM

Perhaps more accurate if you say Cropedy is barely Mr Red's interpretation of folk.

One of the many folk festivals I enjoy year on year. Shows the variety of the genre, and not a single T shirt with 1954 on it...

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:52 AM

no ceilidh, limited variety. & FWIW once my active earplug are delivered I could be there at a respectable volume.

Compare some of the commercial UK festivals with the Les Grande Bals de l'Europe in Saint Gervaise/Gennetines, Bourbonnais France:
We welcome dancers and musicians who accept our invitation, our organization and contribute to running costs but we reject all forms of trade, propaganda and recruitment in the chamber meetings and on our car parks and grounds for camping ( some accredited persons are allowed to sell in these places in the public interest). (Goggle translate)

and it looks like I might be there next year. Maybe no ceilidhs, but wall to wall dancing. Mazurka anyone?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:19 PM

Well I served my time as a festival organiser for a good few years, and still go back to the same festival as a volunteer. Lots of work, many grey hairs acquired, but loads of enjoyment too. Still on other organising committees and have had various artistes staying chez nous. Have never taken, or asked, for any payment, other than a limited amount of reimbursement for outlays such as buying badges and lanyards for committee officials, and some printing costs.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Just Curious
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:24 PM

It's interesting that none of the long term / time organisers of major events have made any comment here.

Perhaps they have better things to do?

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:42 AM

Ihave organised a festival for 5 years, how do you define long?is it not long enough to have an opinion.

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 04:15 AM

These days, with it losing its way, most people don't bother with Mudcat.

Even me.

Where am I??

Hang on, I'll just pinch myself

Subject: RE: Organisers. Why do we do it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 04:25 AM

A moot point and not entirely thread drift.
Why did Max do it?
Because he could?