Soldiers songs calling officers

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:47 AM

And since Godfrey was in the RNAS in France and not the Army in India, he isn't likely to have written the familiar "leaving Bombay" stanza.

A troopship, moreover, would not likely have been "heavily laden with time-expired men" in wartime.

The full pre-1941 story behind "Bless 'em All" has yet to be written - and it may be too late to do so now.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 10:33 AM

Fascinating stuff!

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 11:53 AM

I dislike the religiously serious singing of "Hanging On The Old Barbed Wire" in places like folk clubs because - as Teribus rightly says - it's essentially a cynical, take-the-piss-out-of-everybody song to be sung in situ, i.e. mainly on the march.

If you've ever done a 20-mile route march, perhaps carrying a .303 or a Bren gun, or an FN, at the trail, then you'll know that one of the ways to relieve the boredom and the tiredness is to sing - preferably bawdy, sarcastic songs that give a verbal kick up the bum to those around you and mainly superior to you. But these songs weren't sung in the hushed, "isn't it awful?" tones that you hear in folk clubs - they were belted out, tongue in cheek, to keep spirits up.

Cynical, sarcastic, and piss-taking though they may have been, they were sung with comradeship and affection - everyone was in it together. To present it as a serious "us-against-them", anti-other ranks song, is a serious misapprehension of the context of the song.

Just my two pennorth, as someone who's been on many of these marches many years ago.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Rex
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 02:20 PM

Captain Jinks

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 02:47 PM

While Fred Godfrey was conscripted into the RNAS in 1917, in 1918 the RNAS and the RFC amalgamated to become the RAF and it was from this service that Fred Godfrey was demobbed in 1918. That may explain the non-naval ranks mentioned in the song. As his Grandson and biographer Barry Norris explained once adopted by the RAF the song "percolated" and evolved over the years, that may also explain the other anomalies detailed by Lighter in his posts.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:32 PM

Yet according to Godfrey in the Daily Mirror (Apr. 2, 1941), he wrote the original song while still in the RNAS at Dunkirk before the existence of the RAF.

See www.fredgodfreysongs.ca/Songs/Bless_em_all.htm

So the original refrain must have had different ranks - or different words entirely. Pity we'll never know.

See also Thread #34928, Message 1537459. As I noted in 2005, "A chunk of the distinctive 'Bless 'em All' tune goes back to the 1880s."

A chunk, but not all of it.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 09:32 AM

Hi, Teribus:

Yes, I am a veteran. I served seven years in the Canadian Forces during the 1970s; I joined at 17 and became a civilian again, due to asthma, at the age of 24. Years later, I married a serving soldier who is due to retire next year with nearly 30 years in the regular force, preceded by time in the Militia as a student. One way or another, he's been in uniform most of his life, starting as a cadet at the age of 13, and he's nearly 60. Both my brothers are also Canadian Forces veterans, with loads of years of service between them. If that weren't enough to validate my credentials to comment here, my father was a Royal Navy veteran of the Second World War, and one of my grandfathers served in both the Great War and the second lot.

Now, getting back to the song "Hanging on the old barbed wire" and its relatives, including "Has anyone seen the colonel".

No, of course I'm not saying that the whole leadership was rotten except for the corporals. But that same dear old sergeant used to say that many a true word is spoken in jest. It's a well-documented fact that the mass armies on all sides of the Great War all suffered major leadership crises. The French had mutinies and the Russians had a revolution; the British and their colonial allies were darned lucky to survive with nothing worse than the lingering bitterness that we carry on today.

What's interesting about those songs is that only the most junior leader, the Corporal, is seen as sharing the privates' risk and responsibilities. I would ascribe that to the fact that the privates are closest to the corporal, they live with him, and consequently they know what he does -- and, likewise, he knows where they are all the damn time, and he has great influence on their immediate comfort. I wouldn't care to get caught personally insulting the guy who decides whether my stint at fire picket starts at 2000 hr or 0300. In other songs, notably "Dinkie Die" but also going back to broadsides of the early 19th century (thinking of "Ratcliffe Highway"), everybody is mean and nasty to the soldier until his case finally attracts the attention of the commander in chief -- in "Dinkie Die", it's Lord Gort, and in "Ratcliffe Highway" it's Prince Albert.

As in the British Army, the Canadian military tradition is apolitical and largely non-interventionist with respect to grousing, as long as it is kept within the family, as it were. Songs, stories and jokes that poke fun at and even savagely criticize the chain of command are okay if shared only entre nous; don't do it in front of civilians because they don't understand.

As a young recruit, I, too, sang while doubling with my clunky FN rifle. My platoon favoured "While the red, red, robin goes bob-bob-bobbin' along", but we were girls. At the Combat Arms School in Gagetown, and at their regiments' depots, young soldiers learned their regiments' repertoires. I distinctly remember hearing a gang of Van Doos running around the airfield in Lahr singing "Marianne s'en va-t-en moulin", and even today teams training for the Nijmegen Marches can be seen trotting along the tow-path of the Rideau Canal here in Ottawa, in full combat kit with their official 10-kg rucks, singing "A yellow bird / with a yellow bill / sat upon / my windowsill". But you won't hear anything rough anywhere out in the world; that's only for the charmed circle (as it were) of the canteen, the mess, the shack (barracks) and the training area.

"Has anyone seen the colonel" is part of the medley used by Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry as their regimental quick march; the other tunes are "Mademoiselle from Armentières" and "Tipperary". The Patricias are quite the singing regiment; they also have a version of "D-Day Dodgers" that includes the verse about running a bus to Rimini right through the Gothic Line, and a variant of "Dinkie Die" -- learned from the Australians in Korea -- called "Sweet Briar Was Never Like This". This last song deals with the difference between training for war and actually doing it; Exercise Sweet Briar was conducted in the Northwest Territories just before 2PPCLI deployed to Korea.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:31 AM

Charmion,

"Has anyone seen the Colonel?"

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry - a thumb-nail sketch:

"Upon arrival in England on October, 18 the regiment was first stationed at Bustard Camp on Salisbury Plain near Stonehenge. On November, 16 the unit joined the 80th Brigade of the British Expeditionary Force at Winchester. At that time the regiment abandoned the troubled Ross rifle in favour of the British Lee–Enfield.

On 20 December, the regiment departed for the port of Southampton with the rest of the brigade and embarked for France arriving the next day. On this date the PPCLI was the only Canadian infantry unit on the battlefield, only the 1st Canadian Medical Corps was there before.

The Patricias first took their place in the trenches on January 6, 1915, at a location known to the British Army's soldiers as "Dickiebush".

When Francis Farquhar, the first commanding officer was killed in action at St Eloi on March 20, 1915 {Well everybody seems to know where the Colonel was on that occasion}, he was replaced by Lt Col H. Buller, another British regular who had served with him on the staff of the Governor General before the war. On May, 8 the stout defence of Bellewaerde Ridge during the Battle of Frezenberg established the reputation of the Patricias but at tremendous cost. When they came out of the line they had lost 500 men in three days. The tattered remains were commanded by a lieutenant, all other officers having been killed or wounded {The Colonel seems to have been accounted for here too}. The PPCLI served for a year with the 80th Brigade before joining the new 7th Brigade within the 3rd Canadian Division on December 22, 1915. In 1916 the regiment fought major battles at Mount Sorrel and on the Somme. It was not until October 1916 that the first Canadian, Lt Col Agar Adamson, was appointed to command the regiment. In 1917 as part of the Canadian Corps, the regiment took part in the Battle of Vimy Ridge on April 9, 1917, and Passchendaele later the same year. In 1918 the regiment fought at Amiens, Jigsaw Wood and Canal du Nord as part of the great battles of the Hundred Days that ended the war. The 4th Company, PPCLI, entered Mons with other Canadian troops early on November 11, 1918, before the armistice took effect at 11 AM.

Interesting to see how long this one lasts before it is taken down, as it seems that response to direct questions is not permitted.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 10:10 AM

Hi, Teribus:

Remember that line I wrote about not singing these songs in front of civilians because they don't understand? You have just proven my point.

The Patricias have always been a remarkably happy regiment, despite their many leaps from frying pan into fire over several wars and counting. This condition can be -- and generally is -- ascribed to the regiment's excellent leadership at every level. When they sing "Has anyone seen the colonel", they don't mean that they, personally, haven't seen their colonel lately; they mean that a soldier's life is often hard and they're very, very grateful to be alive and singing at this particular moment.

In other words, don't be so literal.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

"In other words, don't be so literal." - Charmion

Precisely what I have been saying from the word go.

The song "Hanging on the old barbed wire" is not a condemnation of anyone it is an example of "Black Humour" not to be taken literally as some have suggested here.

Also taken your point and agree wholeheartedly about such songs being "owned" by those who faced the hardship - God help anyone who hadn't who tried to tell those men what the they think the song means.

Still no songs that are dismissive or critical of leadership.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:47 AM

Charmion - "In other words, don't be so literal." - You certainly seem to have changed your tune and course by 180 degrees - Go back and read your post - Charmion - 05 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

"the song is FIERCELY CRITICAL" - Charmion
No it isn't you are taking it too literally.

"The Canadian variant, "Has Anyone Seen the Colonel?" is even more snide, if possible:

Has anyone seen the Colonel?
He's dining with the Brigadier.

Well he wasn't dining with the Brigadier on the 20th March, 1915 was he Charmion, he was in the process of getting himself killed while leading his troops in action at St Eloi. The Colonel's successor wasn't dining with the Brigadier either on the 8th May, of the same year he was in the line with his troops defending Bellewaerde Ridge during the Battle of Frezenberg.

Make your mind up you can't have it both ways.

I like the way Will Fly put it:

"it's essentially a cynical, take-the-piss-out-of-everybody song to be sung in situ"

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 04:27 PM

THE BRASS-MOUNTED ARMY

             by -----, of Col. A. Buchel's Regiment.

                   Air — Southern Wagon.

O Soldiers! I've concluded to make a little song,
And if I tell no falsehood there can be nothing wrong;
If any be offended at what I have to sing,
Then surely his own conscience applies the bitter sting.

O how dy'e ye like the army, the Brass-mounted Army,
This highfaluting army, where eagle buttons rule?

Of late I've been thinking of this great Army-school,
With iron regulations, and rather rigid rule;
But chosen words and phrases I need not further speak,
The facts as soldiers know them a stronger language speak.

Whisky is a monster, and ruins great and small,
But in our noble Army Head-quarters get it all;
They drink it when there's danger, altho' it seems too hard,
But if a Private touches it they put him under guard.

And then when we are marching we've "Orders No. B4lank,"
Which makes the private soldiers forever keep in rank;
Altho' it's rather cooling, as soldiers often say,
It is a "General Order," which soldiers must obey.

And when we meet the ladies we're bound to go it sly—
Head-quarters are the pudding, and the Privates are the pie!
They issue Standing Orders to keep us all in line,
For if we had a showing the brass would fail to shine.

At every big plantation, or negro-holder's yard,
Just to eave the property the General puts a guard;
The sentry's then instructed to let no Private pass—
The rich man's house and table are fix'd to suit the brass."

I have to change this story, so beautiful and true,
But the poor man and widow must have a line or two;
For them no guard is station'd, their fences oft are burned,
And property molested, as long ago you've learned.

The Army's now much richer than when the war begun,
It furnishes three tables where once it had but one;
The first is richly loaded with chickens, goose and duck,
The rest with pork and mutton, the third with good old Buck.

Our Generals eat the poultry, and buy it very cheap,
Our Colonels and our Majors devour the hog and sheep;
The Privates are contented (except when they can steal,)
With beef and corn bread plenty to make a hearty meal.

Sometimes we get so hungry that we've bound to press a pig,
Then the largest stump in Dixie we're sure to have to dig;
And when we fret an officer who wears long-legged boots,
With neither judge nor jury we're put on "double roots."

These things, and many others, are truly hard to me,
But still I'll be contented, and fight for Liberty!
And when the war is over, O what a jolly time!
We'll be our own Commanders, and sing much sweeter rhymes.

We'll see our loving sweethearts, and sometimes kiss them too,
We'll eat the finest rations, and bid old Buck adieu;
There'll be no Generals with orders to compel,
Long boots and eagle buttons, for ever fare ye well!

And thus we'll leave the army, the Brass-mounted Army,
This highfaluting army where eagle buttons rule.



(Col. A. Buchel, commander of the 1st Texas Cavalry Regiment, was fatally wounded at Pleasant Hill, Louisiana, Sept. 9, 1864.)

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

Another very interesting fact about the Regiment that Charmion mentioned - The Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry - In 1914 at the outbreak of war Canada did not have any formal armed forces of their own.

Privately raised this regiment was created from over 3,000 men who volunteered within a week. It's First Battalion had a strength of 1098 men of whom 1047 had formerly fought in the Second Boer War or had served in the British Army. That percentage of troops who had previous combat experience must have been quite unique.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:14 PM

"The Brass-Mounted Army" is overlong and diffuse. I doubt that it was ever sung in full, except by the author at its debut.

More to the point of this thread: the humorous commentary impugns everything *but* the officers' courage and competence.

Frank Proffitt knew a Union song with a uniquely critical couplet:

"Winter is a-comin', and it's gettin' mighty cold,
Soon all the generals will be crawlin' in their holes."

It also mentions "Old Abe ...takin' of his snooze" while "Grant is a-bustin' his gut with the booze."