Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Andy7 Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:42 PM Steve Shaw: "Well I found Dylan's "poetry" to be dense, exclusive and obscurantist. To me, poetry should be crystallising notions that I can't articulate clearly for myself, that are inchoate in my mind. Happy, sad, tragic, life-affirming, anything. But making me focus, providing an illuminating spark. Dylan's lyrics are nothing like that." I do kind of agree. I prefer poetry that is simple and easy to understand, yet is still able to put into words our deepest human experiences and emotions. And yet, some of Dylan's poetry (not all!) does have a special rhythmic resonance. It's as though he's writing a melody just by using words. Like building a magic castle out of Lego bricks. He's not a particularly talented singer. But on balance, I'd say that he deserves his Nobel Prize, for the (often obscure) genius of his wordcraft. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM It's all about influence. How many of us could quote a line from Andrew Motion's work. I certainly couldn't and I taught literature for 40 years. I'm not a big fan of Dylan but I could quote you many an influential line! |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM BTW, many a great poet/composer took influence from English traditional song. Where do you think Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth got their inspiration? Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Elgar, Britten etc. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:07 PM You can quote Dylan, but not Andrew Motion, because Dylan came to us via the pop world, via mass exposure and commercial impetus. Poor old Andrew didn't have a chance next to that. Wagner had a massive influence on lots of people. I challenge you to show me that any of that influence was anything other than baleful. Measuring someone's greatness by the influence they have is a rather dangerous game. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:18 PM Perhaps using the word 'great' was too loose then. How about celebrated/influential? Whilst there is truth in what you say, Dylan is part of popular culture. Should the Nobel Lit prize not also celebrate popular culture as opposed to highbrow culture? |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Andy7 Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:53 PM Actually, when you think about it, 'Nobel Prizes', awarded by Nobel Committees based in Scandinavia, are rather an odd idea! But still an interesting phenomenon, which generates much interesting discussion! Still waiting for my Prize, boo! I wouldn't mind Physics, Chemistry, Physiology, Medicine, Literature or Peace. I've achieved great things in all of those areas. Btw, last year I visited the Nobel Museum in Stockholm, and they actually sell very tasty Nobel medals made of chocolate!! I just wish I could have resisted eating mine, rather than giving it pride of place in my Trophy Cabinet at home. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Charley Noble Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:24 PM It's a well deserved award. Yes, there are other singer-songwriters who deserve recognition but Dylan most likely has had the most influence. It's odd, though I know many Dylan songs, or fragments of them, I've never led one in a session. There are so many other candidates on my Nobel Prize list but to name a few: Si Kahn Phil Ochs Kate Wolf Malvina Reynolds Charlie Ipcar |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 14 Oct 16 - 11:04 PM Tend to agree with Steve though there does seem something clever in his use of words. The gospel era albums were more straightforward and understandable . |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM Bernard Shaw once wrote that Wagner's music was a lot better than it sounded. The same kind of thing could be said about Dylan's writing. It gets inside you. And not so much the stuff that is openly trying to sound "poetic". |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: nager Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:42 AM Well deserved |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mr Red Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:39 PM Just heard on a BBC R4 prog about Sam Cooke. He apparently said he was impressed with "Blowin in the Wind" and said "if a white man can write a song like that, it is about time a black man wrote such a song" The result? "the River" ("a Change Gonna Come") I calls that one helluva inspiration. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Essex Bor Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM Disgraceful. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Jeri Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:31 PM Mr Red, I didn't know that. I LOVE that song! |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:41 PM Article by somebody who nominated him back in the '60's... WashPo Blicky. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Acorn4 Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM I think he deserves it for the lyrics of "It's Allright Ma" alone. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Essex Bor Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:40 AM "BTW, many a great poet/composer took influence from English traditional song. Where do you think Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth got their inspiration? Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Elgar, Britten etc" Wordsworth got his inspiration from many things including daffodils, your post muddies the waters Britten used traditional tunes but did not set any lyrics of any merit to traditional music, mind you Bob Dylans Dream is a forgettable piece of lightweight plagiaristic poppycock. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Essex Bor Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:44 AM Zimmer man should get his zimmer and go ans sing his lightweight 'poetry' to those refugees from the sixties in old people home.s |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM I assume that you are using the word "sing" advisedly. I vaguely recall Dylan in a documentary some years ago dismissing his elevation to some sort of guru or spokesman for his times, complaining that he was just a rock musician. Good to see that he views his achievements with far more accuracy than does his army of sycophants. And I do love "Like a Rolling Stone." |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM Essex bro, maybe he'll turn it down |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:27 PM His nomination may be a gift to all those aging hippie people living hand to mouth...eBay |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM And another interesting article from Slate... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,stole Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:42 PM deserved. should have been given back in 92. did them a favor in taking it. word |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Tattie Bogle Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:15 PM Well it was our monthly Sunday session this afternoon, and somewhat unusually, we had a lot of Dylan songs, aided and abetted by a couple of books of his lyrics that someone brought along. I sang "Masters of War" which is so very sadly just as relevant today as when it was written: possibly more so with everything that's going on in Syria and the USA at present. A very powerful song. And I rolled out at 5.15 to the whole assembled company singing "Like Rolling Stone". |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 16 - 01:46 AM And he was the CD in my car the day he was nominated... what taste I have. Who knew. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,silver Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM When I first saw it announced, I thought it was a joke. Judging from Mr. Dylan's reaction, or lack of reaction, he thinks so, too. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM There hasn't been much of a reaction by Dylan, apparently he hasn't spoken to the Nobel committee either... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:07 PM I like Leonard Cohen's take on this: 'Leonard Cohen suggested on Thursday that no prizes were necessary to recognise the greatness of the man who transformed pop music with records like Highway 61 Revisited. "To me," he said, "[the Nobel] is like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain." ' |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM I'm glad he said pop music. I have a hunch that Dylan would agree with that. The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world. * *At least by altitude. I'm rather fond of Penyghent meself... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mr Red Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM A Harvard professor has been teaching lessons on Dylan and his words for years. This article points out that the announcment came timely for the current class. NY Time article about Richard F Thomas: Harvard professor |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world. He said highest, Steve... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: voyager Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM Apropos of nothing (except Mudcat banter about Nobel-Bob) - And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding) |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,AndyL Date: 18 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM Well deserved. His early work draws heavily on the Bible as well as on the British/American ballad tradition, Longfellow and other poets, and he's amazingly diverse, mastering and transcending several genres. When he was young and poor I befriended him following one of his first gigs at Gerdes Folk City in Greenwish Village by giving him a ride in my father's Oldsmobile to his girlfriend's house. "Bobby" also caught the undivided interest of a woman I was interested in, the late traditional singer Hedy West. PS. I agree that Joni Mitchell's large catalogue of exceptionally well-wrought songs deserves recognition at a similar level, though not necessarily a Nobel. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM Interestingly, his Bobness is, by all accounts, playing hard to get. The Nobel Committee is still trying to get in touch with him! Apparently he doesn't neither answers the phone nor calls back....... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Will Fly Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM Oh well, if he doesn't reply, there's always Randy Newman, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen... and many others... |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:17 PM Shane McGowan. Songwriter, poet, survivor. When it's summer in Siam... And I was in Almería once again this summer. Churros and coffee for breakfast, then the best indoor food market ever, then olives, padrons, bread and chorizo, washed down with Rioja. You should've been there, Shane! |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: The Sandman Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM I think it id not deserved, in my opinion he has written two excellent songs and a couple of other fairly good ones. in my opinion he has written less good songs, than Ewan MacColl, but really awrding a prize for literature to a song writer is a joke, some of his literature is doggerel, some of his songs are very unclear as regards meaning others like hattie carroll are good subject matter but way too long and are unimginatively constructed, written like a factually accurate list butin need of serious precising and or editing. By awarding this to Dylan they are devaluing the literature prize, if it was a song writing prize on the strength of at least 3 songs arguably 4, he would be a contender, but not as a poet or a writer of literature, no way, WHO WERE THE IDOITIC JUDGES. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM I tend to agree. Though we can stay sane by accepting that these things are always a matter of opinion. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:26 PM Which 2? |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Jeri Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:38 PM Anybody notice it was a literature award, not a songwriting competition? As poetry, MacColl's not even close. Dylan's stuff ranges from image-heavy dreamy stuff to concrete story-telling, and it changed things. I do think he deserved it. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:39 PM Blighty's knickers knotted? Oh dear so sad. Never mind. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Allan Conn Date: 19 Oct 16 - 03:57 AM It is always going to be a matter of personal opinion when it comes to what is and isn't a good song but at least 'for me' the idea that he has only written three or four songs that were either excellent or fairly good is a far bigger joke than him receiving any award. If I could have written dozens of the songs Dylan wrote then I'd be a very happy bunny. Also the idea that the judges were idiotic and maybe didn't know what they were doing doesn't hold water either. Again all down to taste but as has been previously mentioned Andrew Motion shortly after he became Poet Laureate gave a lecture in which he claimed Dylan was one of the greatest artists of the 20thC and was the writer of the greatest song lyrics ever written. Again all down to taste but are we really going to state that Motion is an idiot for believing that? That one of the most respected modern poets doesn't know anything about verse? Likewise the idea that lyrics aren't good "if they are unclear as regards meaning" doesn't wash either - it is only personal preference. More obscure verse or abstract verse is a recognised form. In fact in response to Motion's lecture on Dylan the other respected poet Dannie Abse commented that Dylan's work was song lyrics rather than poetry because it was too rational "For me song lyrics should have something rational about them. That is what distinguishes them from written poetry, which, I think, has something of the irrational about it," So I suppose if respected poets can't agree on Dylan then why should we expect old blokes on mudcat to do so??? All in all though I pick up The New English Book Of English Verse which classes itself as "the established classic anthology of English poetry" and it is littered with verse that was written to be sung so the defining line between song and poetry is not as clear as some would suggest. The obvious examples in it are ballads like "Tam Lin" and "Mary Hamilton" but also Burns' song lyrics like "My Love Is Like A Red Red Rose" and "John Anderson". It is not new to regard certain song lyrics as part of the poetry canon. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Allan Conn Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM Ooops sorry meant "New Oxford Book Of English Verse" But just also re what makes it into volumes of poetry. Well this poem "Bagpipe Music" by Louis Macneice for me has more in common with Subterranean Homesick Blues or Desolation Row than it has with Shakespeare or Milton! It's no go the merrygoround, it's no go the rickshaw, All we want is a limousine and a ticket for the peepshow. Their knickers are made of crêpe-de-chine, their shoes are made of python, Their halls are lined with tiger rugs and their walls with heads of bison. John MacDonald found a corpse, put it under the sofa, Waited till it came to life and hit it with a poker, Sold its eyes for souvenirs, sold its blood for whisky, Kept its bones for dumb-bells to use when he was fifty. It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky, All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi. Annie MacDougall went to milk, caught her foot in the heather, Woke to hear a dance record playing of Old Vienna. It's no go your maidenheads, it's no go your culture, All we want is a Dunlop tyre and the devil mend the puncture. The Laird o'Phelps spent Hogmanay declaring he was sober, Counted his feet to prove the fact and found he had one foot over. Mrs Carmichael had her fifth, looked at the job with repulsion, Said to the midwife 'Take it away; I'm through with over-production'. It's no go the gossip column, it's no go the Ceilidh, All we want is a mother's help and a sugar-stick for the baby. Willie Murray cut his thumb, couldn't count the damage, Took the hide of an Ayrshire cow and used it for a bandage. His brother caught three hundred cran when the seas were lavish, Threw the bleeders back in the sea and went upon the parish. It's no go the Herring Board, it's no go the Bible, All we want is a packet of fags when our hands are idle. It's no go the picture palace, it's no go the stadium, It's no go the country cot with a pot of pink geraniums, It's no go the Government grants, it's no go the elections, Sit on your arse for fifty years and hang your hat on a pension. It's no go my honey love, it's no go my poppet; Work your hands from day to day, the winds will blow the profit. The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall forever, But if you break the bloody glass you won't hold up the weather. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,Richard Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM Writing songs and writing poetry are different skills, as has been noted, and that they can all be classed as literature has also been pointed out. For what it's worth, I think the old bugger deserves it. One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time, I bet Dylan couldn't tell you either. But try singing it - it's brilliant! and I must read some more of Louis Macneice - thanks Allan Conn. Richard |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: The Sandman Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 AM "One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time," so you believe that songs should not be understandable, I disagree with you, I am sure Woody Guthrie would have disagreed with you, so never mind the man that inspired Dylan. literature does include poetry, but it is more than just poetry. you think he should be awarded it for poetry? then award it for poetruy a poets award should be for poetry but not literature.becaus personally i dont rate him as a poet either but that is my opinion and we have the right to differ, but to give him an award for literature instead of poetry not appropriate, literature is more than the category poetry. an awrd for incomprehensible diction, or musical longevity or even song writing or even poetry is in my opinion more appropriate. my argument is that he has been awarded a prize for the wrong category personally i think his poetry is ok on occasions but nothing special |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM A number of poets have already won the Nobel Prize for literature, W.B. Yeats and Pablo Neruda, to name but two .The Category is Literature, that includes poetry....so, from that point of view he won in the right category. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:30 AM Absolutely. Not for melody nor singing voice, that's for sure. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: The Sandman Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM We Are Getting to the End We are getting to the end of visioning The impossible within this universe, Such as that better whiles may follow worse, And that our race may mend by reasoning. We know that even as larks in cages sing Unthoughtful of deliverance from the curse That holds them lifelong in a latticed hearse, We ply spasmodically our pleasuring. And that when nations set them to lay waste Their neighbours' heritage by foot and horse, And hack their pleasant plains in festering seams, They may again, – not warily, or from taste, But tickled mad by some demonic force. – Yes. We are getting to the end of dreams! BY THOMAS HARDY That night your great guns, unawares, Shook all our coffins as we lay, And broke the chancel window-squares, We thought it was the Judgment-day And sat upright. While drearisome Arose the howl of wakened hounds: The mouse let fall the altar-crumb, The worms drew back into the mounds, The glebe cow drooled. Till God called, "No; It's gunnery practice out at sea Just as before you went below; The world is as it used to be: "All nations striving strong to make Red war yet redder. Mad as hatters They do no more for Christés sake Than you who are helpless in such matters. "That this is not the judgment-hour For some of them's a blessed thing, For if it were they'd have to scour Hell's floor for so much threatening.... "Ha, ha. It will be warmer when I blow the trumpet (if indeed I ever do; for you are men, And rest eternal sorely need)." So down we lay again. "I wonder, Will the world ever saner be," Said one, "than when He sent us under In our indifferent century!" And many a skeleton shook his head. "Instead of preaching forty year," My neighbour Parson Thirdly said, "I wish I had stuck to pipes and beer." Again the guns disturbed the hour, Roaring their readiness to avenge, As far inland as Stourton Tower, And Camelot, and starlit Stonehenge. and this again from Hardy. Christmas: 1924 'Peace upon earth!' was said. We sing it, And pay a million priests to bring it. After two thousand years of mass We've got as far as poison-gas. When Bob Dylan, can write 3 poems as powerful as the above, perhaps he can seriously be considered as a poet in the mean time his award has devalued the prize, on occasions he writes fairly well, but he loves to be unclear in what he is trying to say, as far as i am concerned in his later years he has become an establishment fdolypop singer of a similiar ilk to MacCartney. his one outstanding song is MASTERS OF WAR, The message is clear,to a lesser extent "times are changing" some of the others are catchy and tuneful but a bit lightweight[ mr tambourine man, boots of spanish leather] blowing in the wind is pleasant, but lets compare it to where have all the flowers gone[ whose message is absolutely crystal clear] Dylan said about blowin in the wind There ain't too much I can say about this song except that the answer is blowing in the wind. It ain't in no book or movie or TV show or discussion group. Man, it's in the wind — and it's blowing in the wind. Too many of these hip people are telling me where the answer is but oh I won't believe that. I still say it's in the wind and just like a restless piece of paper it's got to come down some ... But the only trouble is that no one picks up the answer when it comes down so not too many people get to see and know ... and then it flies away. I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it's wrong. I'm only 21 years old and I know that there's been too many ... You people over 21, you're older and smarter The above comment is typical Bob Dylan, except that he doesnt mention this his possible inspoiration. The theme may have been taken from a passage in Woody Guthrie's autobiography, Bound for Glory, in which Guthrie compared his political sensibility to newspapers blowing in the winds of New York City streets and alleys. Dylan was certainly familiar with Guthrie's work; his reading of it had been a major turning point in his intellectual and political development. neither did Bob Dylan admit for a long time that one verse of dont think twice was borrowed from a singer called Paul Clayton LISTEN TO THIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4 |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Jeri Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM Chimes of Freedom All Along the Watchtower When the Ship Comes In ...just three But nobody gives much of a crap what we think. |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: The Sandman Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM Bob Dylan, in my opinion an over rated poet, a good song writer, a man who knew how pursue a succesful career, and who at least once borrowed from someone else, who was no better a song writer than john lennon, imagine and masters of war are first class songs, that sums him up imo |
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM Can't agree about Imagine. He was a bit up his own bum with all that stuff. It's all only opinions! |
Share Thread: |
Subject: | Help |
From: | |
Preview Automatic Linebreaks Make a link ("blue clicky") |