Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM

I would not describe myself as an avid Dylan fan, but am nevertheless pleased he has been recognised with such a prestigious award. On a wider front, issues of plagiarism, conscious or unconscious have been apparent in music for several hundred years. At college in the late 60s, one book on my reading list particularly attracted my attention : 'Bach the Borrower' by Norman Carrell (ISBN: 9780313222054). J.S.Bach was blessed with a phenomenal, aural memory, regularly 'borrowing' parts/whole works from unsuspecting organists to whom he listened. Today, Bach's behaviour would line the pockets of copyright lawyers.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

Nigel, if you read up about the Dylan Paul Clayton dont think twice incident, Bob said something like i will use those lines man, so it wa conscious.
if you are pleased that he has been recognised with an inappropriate reward good, if he had been rewarded for musical longevity or song writing it would IMO, be more appropriate , i am not suggesting he is untalented, but for literature, feck off, why not art or cookery

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM

I never said I believed that songs should not be understandable. I simply said that not understanding a song lyric does not in itself mean it is not a good lyric. Like other forms of art song lyrics can be surreal. It may not be to everyone's liking but that is just personal preference.

As to what is song lyrics and what is lyrical poetry then I am simply pointing out that there is no real clear defining line. It seems to be simply that if something is accepted as being poetry, perhaps by being included in poetry volumes, then it is poetry. Unless someone can clearly explain what makes John Anderson or Auld Lang Syne acceptable as poetry whilst Dylan's best lyrics aren't!

As an aside this has me remembering that whilst doing my English Higher here in Scotland we studied various WWI 'poems' which included Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon but also "Us And Them" by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 PM

Good soldier ~ "It just happened and happened good."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:57 PM

Oh dear, shades of '54' creeping in. You're wasting your time, Allan.
You might not like it, Dick, but all song lyrics are poetry.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

"Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl"

'The distance' is obviously 'outside'!

And 'a wildcat did growl'?? Clumsy English!

Dylan wrote a lot of dodgy lines like this. Yet he also wrote some amazing poetry.

I still think he's as deserving of the literature prize as many, for his influence as well as for his skill with words.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM

well, hopefully this award might get him a lot of publicity and possibly it might mean that it produces an push of interest for other folk music.
Steve Gardham has spoken.."but all song lyrics are poetry"
Steve you may think so, however i will draw your attention to this article just one of quite a few people who think differently to you        



Lyrics
A Poem Is Not A Lyric

By John Braheny


In the print medium, we have an exceptional legacy of poetry in all languages. Much of that poetry also lends itself to recitation and, in fact, may be written specifically to be recited. It is one of a poet's creative options, and if he chooses it, he knows that there are certain words or syllables that won't flow comfortably in speech but will work fine on paper. Other words that can conjure pictures when spoken passionately don't have nearly as much impact on paper. Dylan Thomas's poetry, though it does work on paper, was clearly written to be recited, and recordings of him or Brendan Behan reciting it can bring tears to the eyes. The point is that poetry lives in the media of both print and speech. Lyrics, on the other hand, live elsewhere.

A common misconception is that songs are poetry put to music. It is true that an immense number of treasured lyrics do work as well on the printed page as in a musical context. Writer/artists such as Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, and others possess vocal and writing styles so integrated that an unusually poetic phrase feels right at home in their styles, but would not work comfortably in another artist's style. Very few Joni Mitchell songs can be performed by another artist without imitating her style.

Performers such as these are considered "album artists." In other words, we buy their albums, not because they have a hit single, but because we like their style and the people we perceive them to be. We're likely to read their lyrics on the CD inserts and allow them a little more "poetic license," a little more abstraction and a few more obscure references that we're challenged to figure out. We don't mind because we're already fans.

The point is that, in most cases, a good poem does not necessarily make a good lyric. The obvious difference is that a lyric must function with music. It must be sung. A poem written for the printed page alone can use graphic style and unusual placement of words on a page to emphasize subtleties in meaning. It's not expected to rhyme. It can use identities (board/ bored) and sight rhymes (love/move). It can indulge in abstractions, because if the words aren't readily understood, our eyes and minds can stop for as long as we need to let them sink in and bounce around in the brain.

Much of what is referred to as "poetry" is actually verse. The difference is that between substance and form, imagination and craft. Verse is really anything that conforms to accepted metrical rules and structure. Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry.

The lyric, like a poem, seeks to express an idea or emotion imaginatively in a condensed, yet powerful way. Music helps it do that. The late great composer/teacher/harmonica virtuoso Eddy Lawrence Manson, in his classes, asked students to walk across the room the same way several times. Each time, he plays different music, each selection expressing a different mood. The music gives a different impression about what that person is feeling, where he or she is going. You can use music to do that to a lyrical phrase too. The right—or wrong—music can give that spare and lean phrase exactly the right or wrong meaning. New lyricists have a tendency to minimize the importance of music as a vehicle to deliver their message.

Unlike in poetry, the words in a lyric must easily lend themselves to singing. Words like orange are not only impossible to rhyme, but difficult to sing. A lyricist needs to be able to imagine someone singing the words.

In writing lyrics for radio songs, we need to remember that listeners don't have the same amount of time to wonder what the words really mean as they do when they read poetry. They only have a quick three or four minutes..

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

and i quote from the above
Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry. and an example the The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
Bob Dylan
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
this song is good poetry? are you serious? firstly its grammatically incorrect here
[And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger,] double negatives mean the opposite, then this
"And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:14 PM

in places the above reminds me of this.The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
With your numerous arches and pillars in so grand array
And your central girders, which seem to the eye
To be almost towering to the sky.
The greatest wonder of the day,
And a great beautification to the River Tay,
Most beautiful to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
That has caused the Emperor of Brazil to leave
His home far away, incognito in his dress,
And view thee ere he passed along en route to Inverness.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
The longest of the present day
That has ever crossed o'er a tidal river stream,
Most gigantic to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay !
Which will cause great rejoicing on the opening day
And hundreds of people will come from far away,
Also the Queen, most gorgeous to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Provost Cox, who has given
Thirty thousand pounds and upwards away
In helping to erect the Bridge of the Tay,
Most handsome to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
I hope that God will protect all passengers
By night and by day,
And that no accident will befall them while crossing
The Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
For that would be most awful to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Messrs Bouche and Grothe,
The famous engineers of the present day,
Who have succeeded in erecting
The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
Which stands unequalled to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

However, the McGonagle did understand about not using double negatives

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM

Did he not not indeed!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:28 PM

Woody Guthrie would have written a better song about Hattie Carroll.
Deportee
(also known as "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos")
Words by Woody Guthrie, Music by Martin Hoffman

The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning,
The oranges piled in their creosote dumps;
They're flying 'em back to the Mexican border
To pay all their money to wade back again

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

My father's own father, he waded that river,
They took all the money he made in his life;
My brothers and sisters come working the fruit trees,
And they rode the truck till they took down and died.

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

We died in your hills, we died in your deserts,
We died in your valleys and died on your plains.
We died 'neath your trees and we died in your bushes,
Both sides of the river, we died just the same.

The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon,
A fireball of lightning, and shook all our hills,
Who are all these friends, all scattered like dry leaves?
The radio says, "They are just deportees"

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:57 PM

Well Woody wrote simple words for simple people to understand, with devastating clarity and lyricism, no less poetic for that. He avoided cleverness, obscurantism and appeals to a weird in-crowd that find strange arrangements of words just as perplexing as me yet who pretend to understand them "deeply."

Poetry is about crystal-clear communication of ideas that we non-poets find inchoate, giving us that revelatory spark of sudden comprehension. Poets reach out to grab us by the throat, and the last thing they want is for us to be surrounded by perplexity and fog that they might have induced. Dylan fails abysmally on that count alone. If you want your literature to be something that you have to scratch your head over, Dylan may be for you. The art I like most is the art that reaches out to me, not the art that tries to confuse me via impenetrable language and to make me feel that I'm not in the in-crowd, thank you. And I'm not illiterate, and I do make the effort. Woody lives, but not through Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:58 PM

The business of poets and other writers of literature is to make us get it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 PM

Brenda dubbed this guy? And what, pray, was the purpose of that?



Oh, you should have seen me with the poker man
I had a honey and I bet a grand
Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand

I was talking to an eskimo
Said he was hoping for a fall of snow
When up popped a sea lion, ready to go

Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go
Down to junior's farm where I wanna lay low
Low life, high life, oh, let's go
Take me down to junior's farm

Oh, at the houses of parliament
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the president
We all chip in for a bag of cement

Ollie hardy should have had more sense
He bought a gee-gee and he jumped the fence
All for the sake of a couple of pence

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:28 PM

Captain Byrd's Eye - back off for a little perspective...seven posts in 24 hours might show you are obsessing. Your points are well taken.

If you know Dylan then you know the meaning of "The Changing of the Guard." It is his life story

After 16 years of performance this marked a profound change in his style with two female backups and a saxophone intermission. He had been divorced, converted to Christianity.

Trager"s book has Dylan saying that the meaning changes every time he plays it and the subject is a thousand years old. The Biblical reference are to himself as the good shepherd in a market place of of thieves and swindlers, and of course the watch tower and fires.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I enjoy Zimmerman MUCH more than frosty little cat feet that creep in over night Windows.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM

who was it said:
"with poetry the music is made to fit the words, with song the words are shoehorned into the music"

Now shoot me down with a ten foot feather but the constant in that epithet is words. Literature would be pretty blank without them.

And anyway the Nobel committee cited influence as well as their regard for Bob's words.

Queen Kristina of Sweden said "He who chooses his own path, needs no map". And Bob has certainly ploughed his own furrow.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand - He don't need no stinkin' badge.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:25 AM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri - PM
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.
jeri knows better than those people on mudcat cos shes a Dylan fan

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:04 AM

>>It is true that an immense number of treasured lyrics do work as well on the printed page as in a musical context. Writer/artists such as Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, and others possess vocal and writing styles so integrated that an unusually poetic phrase feels right at home in their styles<<

Thanks for that Braheny quotation, Dick. As you posted it I presume you agree with it!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:37 AM

No,I do not agree with that particular exert that you have extracted from the whole quotation, an example that points to the stupidity of that remark is the lack of poetic style in this song. The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
Bob Dylan
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
this song is good poetry? are you serious? firstly its grammatically incorrect here
[And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger,] double negatives mean the opposite, then this
"And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table".
    This song does not have good verse it contains bad grammar that reverses the intended meaning, it's devoid of imagination,although it has substance it is poor poetry.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:51 AM

I agree it is only one song and some other efforts are considerably better, but if someone is awarded a nobel prize for poetry, i would expect a more consistent standard of high class poetry.
here is another poor effort.
Ballad in Plain D
Bob Dylan
I once loved a girl, her skin it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth, I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister, I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
'Till the tombstones of damage read me no questions but, "Please
What's wrong and what's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure!" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, god damn you, get out!"
And I in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry, I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

this is a little better, but not much.Born in Red Hook, Brooklyn, in the year of who knows when
Opened up his eyes to the tune of an accordion
Always on the outside of whatever side there was
When they asked him why it had to be that way, well, he answered, just because
Larry was the oldest, Joey was next to last
They called Joe Crazy, the baby they called Kid Blast
Some say they lived off gambling and runnin' numbers too
It always seemed they got caught between the mob and the men in blue
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
There was talk they killed their rivals, but the truth was far from that
No one ever knew for sure where they were really at
When they tried to strangle Larry, Joey almost got hit the roof
He went out that night to seek revenge, thinkin' he was bulletproof
Then, the war broke out at the break of dawn, it emptied out the streets
Joey and his brothers suffered terrible defeats
Till they ventured out behind the lines and took five prisoners
They stashed them away in a basement, called them amateurs
The hostages were tremblin' when they heard a man exclaim
Let's blow this place to kingdom come, let Con Edison take the blame
But Joey stepped up, he raised his hand, said, we're not those kind of men
It's peace and quiet that we need to go back to work again
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
The police department hounded him, they called him Mr. Smith
They got him on conspiracy, they were never sure who with
What time is it? said the judge to Joey when they met
Five to ten, said Joey, the judge says, that's exactly what you get
He did ten years in Attica, reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich
They threw him in the hole one time for tryin' to stop a strike
His closest friends were black men 'cause they seemed to understand
What it's like to be in society with a shackle on your hand
They let him out in '71 he'd lost a little weight
But he dressed like Jimmy Cagney and I swear he did look great
He tried to find the way back into the life he left behind
To the boss he said, I have returned and now I want what's mine
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
It was true that in his later years he would not carry a gun
I'm around too many children, he'd say, they should never know of one
Yet he walked right into the clubhouse of his lifelong deadly foe
Emptied out the register, said, tell 'em it was Crazy Joe
One day they blew him down in a clam bar in New York
He could see it comin' through the door as he lifted up his fork
He pushed the table over to protect his family
Then he staggered out into the streets of Little Italy
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
Sister Jacqueline and Carmela and mother Mary all did weep
I heard his best friend Frankie say, he ain't dead, he's just asleep
Then I saw the old man's limousine head back towards the grave
I guess he had to say one last goodbye to the son that he could not save
The sun turned cold over President Street and the town of Brooklyn mourned
They said a mass in the old church near the house where he was born
And someday if God's in heaven overlookin' His preserve
I know the men that shot him down will get what they deserve
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

and a real stinker from the prize winner
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle till the moon is blue
Wiggle till the moon sees you
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, like a swarm of bees
Wiggle on your hands and knees
Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
Wiggle till you wiggle right out of here
Wiggle till it opens, wiggle till it shuts
Wiggle till it bites, wiggle till it cuts
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle, you can raise the dead
Wiggle till you're high, wiggle till you're higher
Wiggle till you vomit fire
Wiggle till it whispers, wiggle till it hums
Wiggle till it answers, wiggle till it comes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like satin and silk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a pail of milk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, rattle and shake
Wiggle like a big fat snake

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?



Read more: Bob Dylan - All The Tired Horses Lyrics | MetroLyrics

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:38 AM

Poems should have rhyme,
And regularity of rhythm;
And if you have the time,
Then you should always write 'em with 'em.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:58 AM

One line, Dick, could sum up yer man's literary prowess:

"I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more..."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:00 AM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.

This!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Horse's mouth confession
"MY LYRICS DON'T MAKE SENSE"
How can you disagree with the man himself.
Dylan's attitude was summed up by his making his name out of protest songs and refusing to join Seeger et al on the Southern Freedom Rides - he was blackmailed by Singer/actor, Theodor Bikel paying his fare South.
A cyncal, somewhat talentless con artist who used people to get where he got and left them behind - ask Joan the Clone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:41 PM

Thanks, Jim, you are spot on
one thing you and I agree on Ewan was a better songwriter than Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:14 PM

Sour grapes produce British whine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

I am not saying that McColl didn't write a few good songs, but he is not in the same class as Dylan at all. Whatever one thinks of Dylan as a songwriter, he was a huge influence in a way that changed a lot about popular and folk music. In fact there are many writers who surpass McColl both in terms of music and influence. Just my thoughts on it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

"Sour grapes produce British whine."
Bridges produce Trolls
If you admir the man so much why contradict him?
"but he is not in the same class as Dylan at all"
Matter of opinion
As far as I am concerned, Dylan never ose above the moon-June-tune level and his tunless singing of stolen lyrics were somehat rpetatively booooooring.
I'll take his word for it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jWFPLjYEaw
give me Guthrie or MacColl any time,

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

One line, Dick, could sum up yer man's literary prowess:

"He's a no-account son of a bitch, he's just like a scum of a scum bag of the earth, I should have sued him and put him in jail."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM

Peace on earth and mudcat too. Don't concede unless you win!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:50 PM

And, he's baaaack!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:59 AM

And now the Nobel committee are getting restive. Come, come out wherever you are! 😳

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 05:21 PM

I wonder whether he'll accept the cash.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 02:22 AM

"...like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain."

Leonard Cohen


Mudcatter Nobel votes = LA Dodgers' batting order. Go Cubbies!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

Nigel Paterson name-checking Bach reminded me of someone else, but that really is a pointer toward thread creep. You're talking the Baroque period there, and the Baroque era was mad, composer-wise.

England was swinging at one far end of the pendulum. Sometimes England is memorably iconoclastic, and defies artistic and cultural conventions being maintained in continental Europe, in the spirit of independence. And then there are eras like the time when Bach and Handel were around. No, the big Bach never made it to England, but Handel did, and not in order to compose the Messiah, but to compete for the English audiences for....the success of Italian music in general and opera in particular. Handel was in there duking it out with born-and-bred Italians who also wanted to cash in on the English craze for Italian music. That's what I mean by the far end of the pendulum -- at regular intervals in history, England will go altogether mad for a cultural fashion from another nation entirely....


....which always reminds me of the previous century, and Afro-American popular music taking England by storm.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 03:55 PM

he has more money than all of you

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

hi, troll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM

"Hi, troll" backatcha!

This thread has pretty much become solid trollery. Guy got a major award, and some people think he didn't deserve it. Just because he wrote a ton of songs that are well-known throughout the world, and changed the nature of music, they think maybe a guy in the UK that people outside the UK likely haven't heard of, who wrote a handful of songs, deserves it more than he did.

It's a flat-out, stupid bitch-fest. Bunch of bitter old farts got tired of privately telling kids to "get off my lawn" so decided to have a public hissy fit. Audience participation required.

Just let it go.
He got the award, and there's nothing anyone can do about it... except bitch and try to provoke other people. It's over. Let them keep going forever. I see no point in this.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:05 PM

You're over-reacting. It really isn't that bad. No-one is saying that some UK bloke should have had it more than him as far as I can see, though a controversial award of this sort is inevitably going to lead to comparisons with others who might have been considered. As for changing the nature of music, well I hardly think so. What kind of music are you talking about? Do expand...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:35 PM

Jeri, people outside the UK, like me, have heard of Peggy Seeger, which is how I heard of Ewan MacColl....many decades ago, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

Hey nock, listen till the end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lM_ePgwlM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 07:02 PM

Bach changed the nature of music. Beethoven changed the nature of music. Wagner tried to but hit a dead end. A good few medieval, renaissance and other baroque chaps had a massive influence. Mozart changed opera forever. Beethoven was influenced by Palestrina and Handel. Haydn was the father of the symphony. One thing about all those guys is that they are all dead this last two hundred years or more (well, a tad less in the case of Wagner and Beethoven) but you've heard of all of 'em. Can probably hum a good few of their tunes, and their stars are not at all fading. I reckon we'll be listening to The Firebird and Daphnis and Rhapsody In Blue in 200 years too. Dylan in 200 years? Well maybe. Like the Beatles. But we have their records. Ludwig never made a single record. Herbert Von Karajan made hundreds of records, lionised at the time, yet almost every single one of them sounds horribly dated already. So, who knows. The Everly Brothers are victims of fashion in a way that Elvis isn't. You never can tell. My kids love the Beatles for their lyricism, though they were both born more then ten years after the split. They've both got tons of Elvis. Love him. But play them a bit of snarlin' Bob and they think you've gone stark staring mad. They're OK with the Byrds doing Mr Tambourine Man but that's about it. He's doomed, Nobel prize notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 07:50 PM

Sounds about right

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:46 AM

Beethoven was 'in' in the 1940s and Dylan in the 60s
What should the lads in the up-armoured Landies hear?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

I suppose Dylana's biggest achievement is to influence obsessive bootleg collectors to obtain video & audio of every single one of his gigs, despite them being bloody awful!!!