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Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits

DigiTrad:
OH, MY ROLLING RIVER
SHENANDOAH


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Shenandoah (42)
'Shenandoah' rhythm/meter (63)
(origins) Origin: Shenandoah (200)
Lyr Add: 'Shenandoah' in the U.S. army (39)
Lyr Req: Shenandoah (Fisherman's Friends) (21)
Shenandoah Origin (29)
Lyr Req: Shenandoah en francais (7)
Help: Land of Misery (Shenandoah) (10)
Shenandoah (11) (closed)
Shenandoah and free melodies (8)
Origin: Shenandoah (8) (closed)
Lyr Req: Shenandoah (12) (closed)


Gibb Sahib 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 AM
Thompson 21 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM
Ged Fox 21 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM
leeneia 21 Apr 17 - 10:00 AM
meself 21 Apr 17 - 07:47 PM
Taconicus 23 Nov 21 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Mr Tanner 24 Nov 21 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Lou 24 Nov 21 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 24 Nov 21 - 10:41 AM
leeneia 25 Nov 21 - 12:58 AM
Mrrzy 25 Nov 21 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 25 Nov 21 - 03:03 PM
GUEST 26 Nov 21 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 26 Nov 21 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Backwoodsman 26 Nov 21 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,henryp 05 Feb 22 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,Rory 05 Feb 22 - 07:35 PM
Lighter 05 Feb 22 - 08:44 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Feb 22 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Rory 06 Feb 22 - 06:26 AM
Lighter 06 Feb 22 - 10:14 AM
Lighter 06 Feb 22 - 10:41 AM
Lighter 06 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Feb 22 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Feb 22 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Feb 22 - 01:57 PM
Lighter 06 Feb 22 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 06 Feb 22 - 06:13 PM
Lighter 06 Feb 22 - 08:01 PM
Lighter 07 Feb 22 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,callmechaz 23 May 22 - 10:50 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 May 22 - 11:36 AM
Lighter 23 May 22 - 12:47 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 May 22 - 04:23 AM
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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 AM

How one pronounces "Shenandoah" is irrelevant to one's performance of this song. That is, if one imagines one is singing a traditional and/or historical song. The reason being, it's unknown whether the word "Shenandoah" exists at all in the song. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that "Shenandoah" was a mondegreen. If this was the case, the rendering as "Shenandoah" probably (my logic) first appeared in print as someone(s) tried to rationalize the word/name they heard and, later, singers of the song who were exposed to printed versions created their pronunciations under the assumption that "Shenandoah" was the word.

~"Shenandoah" (or whatever word was original/intended) doesn't even figure prominently in the song. If we follow the logic of the vast majority of chanties, the refrains are the only fixed portion, and it is customary to know the songs from the refrains. Hence, the song in question is "Rolling River" (or "Across the Wide Missouri," etc.). "Shenandoah" is not an essential component of the chanty. And yes, it was a chanty— it was mentioned in many testimonies of the 2nd half of the 19th century as and ONLY as a chanty sung in a labor context. NOTHING has been turned up in the 19th century to support the idea that "Rolling River" was sung in any other context. Whall (above) made a claim about it being a non-chanty song a half century before his writing, but no empirical evidence supports that. Whall also made the claim that chanties date back to The Complaynt of Scotland—a work he dated as a century older than it was. Subsequent writers lapped up his statements. It's fair to speculate on the point of when and in what context "Rolling River" was created, but to claim it was anything other than a chanty is pure bullshitting or the repetition of a bullshitter.

There are threads here discussing many songs—all within the ambit of chanties—some of which are clearly variations of "Rolling River" and some which are different songs but which all appear to invoke a variant of the ~name ~Shenandoah. That is, they are variations of that which print authors came to standardize as "Shenandoah." In the majority of these examples, and more so the closer to the source one gets, the variant is something different than "Shenandoah," whether Shanadore, Shannydo, Sunnydo, Salambo, Shanado... perhaps even Shallow Brown and Sally Brown, ... or Seven-long-years... which often fit the same paradigm. One thing that strongly links all these data points is that the songs tend to be associated with people of African-descended cultures of the Western Atlantic. This would not be the first time that writers/singers of one culture misheard an unfamiliar word in another culture's song. (Other candidates for possible mishearings in the chanty repertoire include "ranzo," "hilo," and "rolling king".)

Think that the word _must_ be "Shenandoah," because that is the name of a known thing in the U.S. (as opposed to an unknown thing in the mouths of people from Africa)-- and that all these variations emerged from the lips and pens or people who didn't know the Shenandoah River and, thereby, corrupted the word? I suppose it's possible. But when you put aside all the bullshit narratives of the song in the tradition of Whall (a racist British captain who thought the songs he perceived to be of Black American origin were trash, and who inspired subsequent writers and "researchers" on the topic to ignore the vast wealth of activity of African-Americans STILL singing chanties in favor of meeting decrepit English retired seamen vaguely recalling petrified chanties)... and you put aside what you THINK "the lyrics" are (because some writer standardized some words in a particular volume and then people copied it verbatim, in facsimile after facsimile)... and you also look at the actual lay of the data points-- their appearance in time, who is reporting, etc -- I think you might agree that "Shenandoah" is the product of *standardizing an assumption*, and that you'd have to agree that there is no one correct way to pronounce the word that often crops up in these *songs of African-American folklore*.

(I hope you see what I did there. Framing this set of songs as "African-American folklore" -- something I doubt can be refuted entirely -- would tend to change the way people seek answers about them, as compared to framing them as "sea shanties.")


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:25 AM

In Ireland we pronounce it Seanadóir, as we pronounce our senators' title in Irish - Seanadóir, I love your daughter…


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Ged Fox
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

At least we know Shenandoah is not Irish - anything originating West of the Tordesillas meridian is African-American: Irish is everything originating East of that line.


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:00 AM

Flour or corn tordesillas?

I just took a trip to Shenandoah National park and saw the river. I'm surprised at how small it is.


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 07:47 PM

Another thorough, knowledgeable post from Gibb Sahib. Whether he's right or not, I don't know, but it's refreshing to have someone who's really studied this stuff chime in ... ! Which isn't meant to denigrate anyone else's contribution.


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Taconicus
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 06:49 PM

Dave H: can you teach Paul Simon to sing, ' Scarborough Fair ' not ' Scarborow '

Sure, if you can teach Paul McCartney to sing 'saw them winging' (in the Beatles cover of 'Till There Was You'), instead of 'sore them winging; no I never sore them at all'. *lol*


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Mr Tanner
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 06:25 AM

I caught myself singing "Shenandoah" this morning.

It really cheered me up; I couldn't stop smiling, such a beautiful tune. Singing it made my daily chores so much easier to get done.

But then, I became concerned that I wasn't pronouncing the words correctly.

God, I felt so stupid.

Now I'm just depressed . . . I'm never going to sing again.

Excepting very late at night when the shop is dark and closed . . .

Martin


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Lou
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 09:15 AM

Shenandoah is to Americans what Danny Boy is to Irish.
Or that is my observed opinion...
What would be the English equivalent? (sentimental, maudlin, sad, nostalgic)


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 10:41 AM

Not sure the British have an exact equivalent to those two, Lou. Maybe ‘On Ilkley Moor Bah’t ‘At’? ;-)


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Subject: RE: 'Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Nov 21 - 12:58 AM

It's funny. this thread has made me realize that that I always sing, "Oh, Shenandoh," but when speaking of the river or valley, I say "Shenandoh-uh."

I guess I noticed the difference as a kid, but then I forgot. Young kids notice a lot about language.

A few years ago, we flew to Washington DC, rented a car and drove to Shenandoah National Park. With a drive of one hour, or an hour and a half, we changed worlds completely. I recommend it.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Nov 21 - 09:37 AM

I have lived in the Shenandoah valley since the mid-80's. Folks hereabouts say Shenandoah, shan'n DOH ah. Three syllables, but it is the second vowel that disappears,


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 21 - 03:03 PM

Language evolves...


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 06:13 AM

Danny Boy was written by a bloke from Nottingham, that’s in England.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 06:36 AM

Dunno wot happened there (twice), but…

If Wiki is to be believed, the guy who wrote Danny Boy was born and raised in Portishead, Somerset, not Nottingham. But you’re right, he was English, not Irish.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 06:38 AM

Frederic Weatherley


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 06:05 PM

The song first appeared in writing as "Shenadore" in The New Dominion Monthly in April, 1876. The author, Captain Robert Chamblet Adams, indicated that he had first heard the song around 1850.

W.B. Whall reprinted it in his 1910 book Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties Collected by W.B. Whall, Master Mariner. Most musicologists agree that the chief mentioned in "Shenandoah" is the Oneida Iroquois chief John Skenandoa.

https://balladofamerica.org/shenandoah/


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Subject: Lyr Add: SHANADORE / SHENANDOAH
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 07:35 PM

Shanadore" in The New Dominion Monthly, April, 1876, p.262


Shanadore

Chorus:
Shanadore's a rolling river,
Hurrah, you rolling river.
Oh, Shanadore's a rolling river,
Ah hah, I'm bounding away o'er the Wild Missouri.

Shanadore's a packet sailor,
Chorus

Shanadore's a bright mulatto,
Chorus

Shanadore I long to hear you.
Chorus

And the song goes on.

.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 08:44 PM

The earliest appearance of a "full" text of "Shenandoah" may have been in The Riverside Magazine for Young People (New York City) (Apr.,1868):

"Man the capstan bars! Old Dave is our 'chanty-man.' Tune up, David!

O, Shannydore, I long to hear you!                
Chorus.-- Away, you rollin' river!                                                                     
O, Shannydore, I long to hear you!
Full Chorus.--Ah ha! I'm bound awAY
On the wild Atlantic!
                                                   
Oh, a Yankee ship came down the river:…
And who do you think was skipper of her?…

Oh, Jim-along-Joe was skipper of her:…
Oh, Jim-along-Joe was skipper of her!…

An' what do you think she had for cargo?…
She had rum and sugar, an' monkeys' liver!…

Then seven year I courted Sally:
An' seven more I could not get her….

Because I was a tarry sailor,--
For I loved rum, an' chewed terbaccy:…


"The words to the songs given here were from the lips of a veritable 'old Dave,' during the writer's recent voyage across the Atlantic."

Of "Shanadore," Adams wrote in 1876:

"One of the best illustrations of the absolute nothingness that characterizes the words of these songs, is given by the utterances attending the melody called 'Shanadore,' whch probaby means Shenandoah, a river in Virginia. I have often heard such confusing statements as the following:-- [Text given by henryp above] and so the song goes on, according to the ingenuity of the impromptu composer."


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 03:35 AM

"The song first appeared in writing as "Shenadore" in The New Dominion Monthly in April, 1876."
We, on Mudcat, know this isn't true. A version of Wikipedia had that "first" but I removed it back around 2014. So, Ballad of America website is just cribbing from Wiki and now, in reposting that, we reinforce an error.

"The author, Captain Robert Chamblet Adams, indicated that he had first heard the song around 1850."
No idea where they got this from. I never saw that in Adams' text. (If I missed it, I'd really like to know!) Moreover, AFAIK Adams' sea experiences began in the second half of the 1860s. He was born in 1839, so where was he hearing "Shenandoah" in 1850 at age 11?

"W.B. Whall reprinted it..."
I would think "reprinted" means that Whall took what was printed in Adams and printed it again. But Whall just gave a version of the song, as many already had before. The piece goes on to say that Whall's was "likely" the original version. Um, ok.

"Most musicologists agree that the chief mentioned in "Shenandoah" is the Oneida Iroquois chief John Skenandoa."
No they don't. Who are these "musicologists"? Whall made up that "Skenandoa" thing, so maybe a bunch of people repeated that (like Ballad of America is doing), but those people aren't "musicologists" nor are they "agreeing"—those words imply they have done independent research and it led them to a similar finding, but not a single musicologist has done that.

Seems convenient for such pieces to often platform the outlier "Indian chief" thing but ignore, for example, Adams' "Shanadore's a bright mulato." No one curious how Shenandoah turned (according to their timeline) from an "Indian chief" to a "mulatto"?


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:26 AM

The Riverside Magazine for Young People (New York City), April 1868, p 185.

Shanydore


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 10:14 AM

Hi, Gibb.

It's all so true. (In fact, a good deal folksong commentary is at roughly that level.)

And I always thought "Sally Brown is a bright mulatto." Ooh, my head hurts!

Note, for the little it's worth, that the 1868 text includes the "rum and tobacco" verses prominent in the U.S. army versions of many years later.

With such fragmentary first-hand evidence - the recollections of a bare handful of British and American seamen out of the thousands who sailed between, say, 1870 - we can't determine where or when the "Indian chief" version arose.

All we know on that score is that Whall believed he'd heard it around 1860 "from a Harrow boy." This is not impossible, Whall's recollection that the song figured in "old public school collections" is undoubtedly wrong. That means his association of it with the early '60s is itself doubtful.

The best we can say is for sure is that at least Whall's Indian chief lyrics (barring errors in recall) stems from a few decades before 1909, when Whall published his book.

How widespread or typical they were is another question entirely, and we one we may never be able to answer.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 10:41 AM

Let's be clear for most readers: an Indian chief version *could be* the original, but we have *no* way of knowing that. It could just as easily have been a fantasy spun out by a later chanteyman.

In the familiar words that chill the blood of any folksong enthusiast,
"Who knows?"

As for the Oneida chief Skenandoah (who died in 1816, long before the routine singing of chanteys), he was born in Pennsylvania and spent most of his life in western New York State.

That's pretty far from both the ocean and the "wild/wide Missouri."

Finally, Wikipedia cites an assertion that George Washington "named the Shenandoah River" in the chief's honor. In actuality, the river was called "Shannandore" (sic) by 1746.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM

Adams's 1876 text of "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow" is made up entirely of "Sally Brown" verses.

Including, "Oh, Sally Brown, I'll ne'er deceive you."


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 12:57 PM

Pronunciation aside, unless a sailor spelled it out for him, “Shanandore” was the author's spelling:

“...This is clearly of negro origin, for the "Shanandore" is evidently the river Shenandoah. In course of time some shantyman of limited geographical knowledge, not comprehending that the "Shenandore" was a river, but conceiving that the first chorus required explanation, changed the second chorus.”

Best I can figure, it's mid-1800s American pop vernacular. The only other place I can find it so far it is Major Smith's Letters (1864)(aka: Seba Smith)


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 01:00 PM

*Major Downing's Letters.

Needed more coffee.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 01:57 PM

Correction: Found some earlier New England usage before Smith but it's all behind paywalls for now.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 02:16 PM

"Shannandore" is how it's spelled on a land deed of 1746:

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/va/augusta/deeds/f5400002.txt

On a formal map of 1760, it's "Shanedore":


https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3880.ar143600/?r=0.152,0.138,0.55,0.201,0

The original English name of the river, discovered by Virginia Governor Alexander Spotswood in 1716, was "Euphrates."


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:13 PM

Yup, it's a lot like looking for a "shanty." Add a letter here, change a letter there, and one gets a different answer. And that can change from one verse to the next.

But, even with all the paywalls unblocked, I've still not found any older "folk" or "pop" lyric of any spelling.

And somebody had to "adapt" that melody into printable form at some point.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 08:01 PM

Same here. But see the "origins" thread a few minutes ago.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 08:32 PM

A yet earlier mention - unfortunately without a text.

William Jackson Palmer, “Diary,” in John Stirling Fisher, "A Builder of the West: The Life of Gen. William Jackson Palmer" (Caldwell, Ida.: Caxton, 1939), p. 49:

“[May, 1856]… [The sailors’ songs are] musical but after a certain wild mood that is very appropriate to the words and the scene:
        'Hi, yi, yi, yi, Mister Storm roll on, [sic] Storm Along, Storm Along,' … 'All on the plains of Mexico,'… 'Aha, we’re bound away, on the wild Missouri.'"


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: GUEST,callmechaz
Date: 23 May 22 - 10:50 AM

It's a free world. You Brits might remember we saw to that in 1776. So do as y'all wish. Just know that if you sing it with 4 syllables you WILL sound like a wanker.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 22 - 11:36 AM

This American, who has traveled through the Shenandoah Valley, pronounces it properly - with four syllables. Anything else just sounds weird. My dad sang the song with four syllables; it scans properly that way.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Lighter
Date: 23 May 22 - 12:47 PM

Shellbacks preferred something like "Shannondaw."

Not all even knew what it meant.


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Subject: RE: Singing 'Shenandoah' for Brits
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 May 22 - 04:23 AM

Stilly River Sage,

What do you mean by it "scans properly" with 4 syllables?


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