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BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?

Stu 29 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM
akenaton 29 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM
Stu 29 Oct 16 - 10:53 AM
Joe Offer 29 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM
akenaton 29 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM
Stanron 29 Oct 16 - 11:26 AM
Greg F. 29 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM
Joe Offer 29 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM
akenaton 29 Oct 16 - 12:25 PM
Pete from seven stars link 29 Oct 16 - 12:36 PM
Greg F. 29 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM
Mrrzy 29 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Oct 16 - 01:48 PM
Stu 29 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM
michaelr 29 Oct 16 - 02:33 PM
Teribus 29 Oct 16 - 02:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM
Teribus 30 Oct 16 - 01:36 AM
BobL 30 Oct 16 - 03:15 AM
akenaton 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 AM
Senoufou 30 Oct 16 - 03:45 AM
Allan Conn 30 Oct 16 - 03:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM
Donuel 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Oct 16 - 10:44 AM
Lanfranc 30 Oct 16 - 07:24 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 16 - 08:44 PM
Stu 31 Oct 16 - 05:34 AM
Senoufou 31 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 16 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 16 - 06:24 AM
Bill D 31 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM
akenaton 31 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM
Senoufou 31 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 16 - 05:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Oct 16 - 06:10 PM
Joe Offer 31 Oct 16 - 10:48 PM
Teribus 01 Nov 16 - 01:54 AM
akenaton 01 Nov 16 - 02:50 AM
akenaton 01 Nov 16 - 02:55 AM
Long Firm Freddie 01 Nov 16 - 02:59 AM
Allan Conn 01 Nov 16 - 03:17 AM
Stanron 01 Nov 16 - 04:45 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM
akenaton 01 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Nov 16 - 08:05 AM
Teribus 01 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM
Teribus 01 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM
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Donuel 01 Nov 16 - 12:54 PM
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Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 02:49 AM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 06:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 16 - 07:12 AM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 01:47 PM
Raedwulf 02 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM
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akenaton 02 Nov 16 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 07:16 PM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 04:33 AM
Stu 03 Nov 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM
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Raedwulf 03 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 02:05 PM
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akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM
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Jim Carroll 04 Nov 16 - 12:17 PM
Raedwulf 04 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM
Joe_F 04 Nov 16 - 09:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Nov 16 - 09:28 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 16 - 12:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 16 - 04:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM
Greg F. 05 Nov 16 - 04:57 PM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 16 - 05:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Nov 16 - 10:09 PM
akenaton 06 Nov 16 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 16 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 16 - 03:46 PM
The Sandman 06 Nov 16 - 03:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 16 - 07:45 PM
Raedwulf 06 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 16 - 11:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Nov 16 - 01:09 PM
Lanfranc 07 Nov 16 - 08:32 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Nov 16 - 08:52 PM
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Steve Shaw 07 Nov 16 - 09:11 PM
Greg F. 07 Nov 16 - 10:12 PM
akenaton 08 Nov 16 - 04:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 16 - 04:24 AM
Stu 08 Nov 16 - 06:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 16 - 05:55 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 06:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 16 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 06:37 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 06:42 AM
Stu 08 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 16 - 08:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 16 - 08:59 AM
Stu 08 Nov 16 - 09:19 AM
Lanfranc 08 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM
Stu 08 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM
Greg F. 08 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 16 - 11:02 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 11:21 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 11:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM
Greg F. 08 Nov 16 - 12:34 PM
Lanfranc 08 Nov 16 - 01:48 PM
akenaton 08 Nov 16 - 03:39 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 16 - 06:43 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 16 - 08:28 PM
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Allan Conn 09 Nov 16 - 06:53 AM
Jason Xion Wang 09 Nov 16 - 07:26 AM
Stu 09 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM
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Subject: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

So... I've been thinking about nationalism in all it's various guises and forms and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing; it's divisive, isolationist, exclusive and too easy to corrupt with patriotism and flag waving. I think that as a species we need to move away from nationalistic politics and embrace our global citizenship. That's not to say we should abandon our cultures and traditions as these help give us identity, but choose to exist in a world where the lines drawn on maps are less important that the people who choose to live in that land.


Or am I wrong?




*I don't have any particular country in mind, I'm more interested in a philosophical discussion of nationalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

So.....what do you think of the fact that a large majority of SNP supporters voted "remain" in the recent referendum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:53 AM

That a large number of SNP supporters want to remain in the EU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM

There's a big difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism seeks to promote a nation to the disadvantage of other nations. Patriotism seeks to promote the welfare of one's own nation and community - not necessarily to the disadvantage of others.
The SNP (Scottish National Party) certainly seeks to promote the well-being of Scotland - by pushing for it to remain in the European community of nations, despite England's more isolationalist stance.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

Most SNP supporters are Nationalists..... I don't see any of the divisiveness, isolationism, or exclusivity that Stu was waffling on about.    Lack of political acumen perhaps :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:26 AM

Joe Offer wrote: despite England's more isolationalist stance

We've been here before but some of us who voted for Brexit see being in the Eu as being isolated from the more vigorous economies in the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM

"Patriotism, n. - Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit it is the first."

          ― Ambrose Bierce


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM

Maybe it'st's not so much whether "Nationalism" as a concept is good or bad per se..

It's just that most [all?] Nationalists I have ever encountered tend to be rather unpleasant bigoted reactionary folks who make me feel very wary.....

I have yet to meet any nationalists who are objective fair minded pleasant people.....????? 😐

Hello.... where are you.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

In general, I would says that patriotism and nationalism have more-or-less the same meaning, but patriotism has good implications and nationalism has bad ones.




Ake sez: Most SNP supporters are Nationalists.
I think that from my observations, I'd say that Most SNP supporters are patriots with a view that is open to the world.





Stanron says: some of us who voted for Brexit see being in the Eu as being isolated from the more vigorous economies in the rest of the world.
I'm sure that's so, but I would think that to be the view of a small minority of those who voted for Brexit. The most vocal pro-Brexit voters, were nationalists and isolationists who fear immigration and don't want to contribute to the welfare of poorer EU members in hope of strengthening all of Europe.

The Brexit vote results made Scotland look pretty good, and they made England look almost as nationalistic and isolationist as the U.S. appears to be.

I'm sure the majority of Mudcatters from all nations, are not isolationist or nationalistic; but most Mudcatters run against the tide of their own nations.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:25 PM

Joe, SNP stands for Scottish National Party, Members and supporters (of whom I am one) define themselves as "Nationalists".

With regard to....."objective fair minded pleasant people.....?????"
What better example than myself? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:36 PM

Well joe , I don't know how many who voted leave were "isolationists that feared immigration...don't want to contribute ..poorer members.." But I suspect that all of us who voted leave did not want to contribute to padding the fat cats at the top , or other wasted money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

In general, I would says that patriotism and nationalism have more-or-less the same meaning,

Not hardly.

but patriotism has good implications

See A. Bierce, above, also:

"Patriotism, though it is based upon the natural and indeed instinctive love of home, has been elevated in the modern world into an unparalleled congeries of imbecilities. What it demands of the individual citizen, as a practical matter, is that he yield not only his judgement but also his property and even his life to whatever gang of scheming politicians happen to be in power. The essence of his virtue as a patriot is that he ask no questions, once the band is set to playing. - H.L. Mencken

and nationalism has bad ones.

See also "jingoism" and "nativism".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

As Joe said, patriotism and nationalism refer to the same thing, but seen differently. The same as describing someone as firm, obstinate or pigheaded. Or relaxed as against idle.

Whether you call it nationalism or patriotism, the crucial test is whether you recognise that it should imply respecting it in other peoples. If you're against democratic secession from your own country, your nationalism/ patriotism is a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

I'm agin it.

I understand that cooperation among group members makes the group stronger. I also understand that competition between groups *also* makes both groups stronger... so Us v. Them is bred in the bone, if you will.

Somehow we need to unite and have Them be the uncivilized, not the people who belong to arbitrarily-defined groups to which you don't subscribe.

NO element of "we're better than they are" based on group membership is OK, it *must* be based on actual behavior.

So no, America isn't necessarily great, but, say, getting Nixon to resign was a great thing for America to have done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:48 PM

Ake - 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

"but patriotism has good implications"

I disagree, but would welcome examples. Patriotism is tribalistic and largely unquestioning in nature and reinforces the idea that the patriot's country is superior to others, right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:33 PM

Patriotism (or nationalism; I think they're pretty much two names for one thing) is the mistaken and dangerous notion that the geographical accident of one's birth somehow has greater worth than membership in the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:42 PM

Joe please remember when talking about the foolishness of Brexit that the USA would never have entertained the idea of joining such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else.

I can see nothing wrong at all with "patriotism" on the other hand I do not think that "nationalism" has any redeeming features whatsoever:

British National Party
National Socialist German Workers' Party

Are but two examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM

National Health Service


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM

And how would it be any different if those two oraganisations Teribus cited had called themselves the British Patriot Party, or the Patriotic German Socialist German Workers' Party? Except we'd have called the latter "Pazies", pronounced "patsies", which would have made them sound even sillier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:36 AM

"IF" Kevin?? If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

Cannot really see how a nation wide service delivering healthcare and medical services to the sick and injured can in any way equate to a political party that might be elected to office where it would then direct national policy governing every aspect of the lives of the entire population - there again Kevin you always have been good at comparing apples to oranges.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: BobL
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:15 AM

Humanity's animal instincts lead it to divide others into "them" and "us", not necessarily with any meaningful boundary. This may have been useful habit at one stage of our evolution, but now we need to rise above it (and some other instinctive behaviour) through conscious choice. Patriotism/nationalism harnesses this divisive instinct on a national scale, but at its worst is just collective selfishness.

Incidentally, patriotism may be defined as "love of one's country", but in this context what do we mean by "love"? What do we mean by "country"? I take "love" to be that which leads us to prefer another's advantage to our own. And "country" is, for me at least and in this case, not the geographical area where I happen to have been born and now live, but the political entity of which I am legally a citizen and upon whose actions I have some slight influence through voice and vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 AM

As society changes to take account of different conditions, like climate change, lack of recourses, inability to be "competitive" etc, IMO we shall find it expedient to operate in smaller units, one reason that I was so enthusiastic about leaving the EU.

It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:45 AM

"Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness toward anyone..."   Edith Cavell, awaiting execution by firing squad by the Germans.

Having been influenced by Post War propaganda, the Girl Guides ethos and the views of my parents regarding Patriotism, I used to be ardently patriotic, thinking Britain (or even just England) was the very best place on Earth and I was blessed to have been born there. This attitude continued until relatively recently in my life, when I slowly began to see the wider picture, and as BobL suggests, I began to 'evolve'.

I think having travelled widely among very different cultures to my own, and having acquired a non-British husband, plus having thought deeply for a change about my opinions and standpoints on various matters (I do feel many people don't actually think through their views) I have come to the conclusion that Patriotism is a very narrow and 'exclusive' way to think.

I do love my country in the sense that I love the climate, the seasons, the green fields and the wide variety of traditions, accents and customs etc. I love our long and varied history. But I've actually learned to try and love all peoples, and not to see any as superior/inferior or less or more worthy.

Patriotism is the same as (or very close to) Nationalism, Chauvinism and by definition Arrogance. It can engender despising, aggression, refusal to consider other points of view and (as Edith Cavell perceived) in the end give rise to hatred. All very dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:52 AM

"Nationalism seeks to promote a nation to the disadvantage of other nations."

But Joe that is surely far too narrow a definition of the word nationalism? My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives two main definitions.

The first definition states that it means having patriotic feelings or principles with an addendum stating that in extreme forms it can turn into chauvinism. As far as Scotland is concerned both sides in the independence debate had patriotic feelings and principles and on both sides a small minority displayed chauvinism.

The second definition is simply believing in national independence. For instance would you really say that in the dying days of the Soviet empire that Estonian or Latvian nationalists wanted to promote their nation to the disadvantage of others? Surely they only wanted to take their place along side other nations?

So nationalism has various meanings but yes the SNP and other members of the Yes movement in Scotland mostly think of themselves as nationalists - but at the same time most would baulk at being compared to chauvinistic nationalists like the BNP etc.

There was a tiny vehemently anti-English grouping within the SNP (Siol nan Gaidheal- Seed of the Gael) but they were expelled from the party in the 1970s and are completely irrelevant within Scotland itself. They try to promote themselves online as a cultural group mostly to the North American diaspora. They are complete nobodies and would probably be hard pressed to fill a few minibuses.

The Yes movement as a whole, and the SNP, like to describe themselves as Civic Nationalists. That is they believe Scotland should be an independent nation but that they should be outward looking and welcoming regardless of people's ethnicity, religion, colour etc. The idea is that being Scottish is not just based on parentage, ethnicity or place of birth. It is also based on residence. So sure some nationalist Scottish people may disagree but when the SNP talk about the people of Scotland they are talking about everyone legally living in Scotland.

This was most recently expressed by the First Minister at the recent opening of the new session of the Scottish Parliament which was shortly after the Brexit vote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFgHQOHqKRg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

There are plenty of people and organisatiins who are viciously hostile to anything or person who is foreign who happily describe themselves as patriots and patriotic. In the same way there are nationalists and nationalist organisations who are the reverse.

What matters isn't which word you use, but what beliefs and practices you attach to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

It works for the children and adults of France, Germany, Finland and Slovenia.

Watch 'Where to invade next'


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:44 AM

There is in fact an organisation called the "Patriotic Socialist Party" in Britain. If it had called itself the National Socialist Party it might have given a more accurate indication of its politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:24 PM

Let's imagine a culture where nationalism and patriotism are both subordinate to faith, where allegiance to an imagined deity and obedience to an iron age code are cruelly enforced, where any democratically enacted laws may be ignored and where any alternative belief system is suppressed.

Would this be preferable?

Coming soon to a free country near you, in fact it's here now, just not yet completely dominant.

Be careful what you wish for.

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:44 PM

Well I was born in t'gritty north-west of England. I could count forty-nine factory chimbleys from t'bedroom window in my house, two up two down with outside brick shithouse. Our house had cracks in the walls due to subsidence from t'pit under th' 'ouse (this is all perfectly true, by the way, none of your "aye, but we 'ad it tough!" stuff). My mum and dad insulated us from the hardships and we had a great childhood (especially when it was going down the Irwell on long summer evenings to chuck stones at the rats!). When I was a bit older I worked on the Parks and got to know some real gritty blokes who had dead-end jobs, amazing facility when it came to swearing in a northern accent, and a ton of dignity. So I have a great affection for that part of the world. It was the blood, sweat and tears of northern England that drove the industrial revolution, made this country rich and started the cult of the fatcat with a sense of entitlement. I love it and defend it to the hilt, and I go back every couple of months, but I'm not going to live there again. Dunno whether you'd call that patriotism, but I'm not having any old gobshite dissing the north of England.

I go to Italy and Spain a lot for my (budget I hasten to add) holidays these days. I'm a bit sad that a lot of Italians don't seem to value what they've got in their amazing country. In both countries I find the people to be incredibly friendly and helpful, especially in the poorer bits in the south. They're just like me, wanting to make an honest living, not particularly wanting to get rich by fleecing people. I can scarcely do their languages at all (typical ignorant British git), but I never feel foreign in either country. They're just people, just like me. So I don't get this nationalism malarkey. Of course you want your own patch to be as nice as possible. But that doesn't mean you can't see the same aspiration in everybody else the world over. I like distinctness and I hate it when I see a McDonalds in Almería or in Sicily. But that's a bit irrational in this global village of ours. It's a good job that McDonalds isn't any good, otherwise it would sound a bit imperialistic too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:34 AM

...such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else."

Which the sort of nationalist sentiment that caused Brexit; an inability to co-operate and take decisions jointly for the common good.



"It was the blood, sweat and tears of northern England that drove the industrial revolution"

Parochialist nonsense, on par with nationalist propagandist bullshit. The industrial revolution was driven by the labours of millions across the country, not in any single region. Ever been to Birmingham? The valleys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

This is such a knotty problem to disentangle isn't it? I've been giving this topic some thought (old brain cells creaking a bit) and I can't get it sorted out. I too love the area in which I live. I love all the cliches about Britain. (Accents, traditions, castles, cathedrals, gardens, cuisine etc) I do miss old Blighty when I'm abroad. But I also love the multicultural side of the UK. I love seeing people in different dress, new shops selling unusual food from other lands, hearing different languages spoken, and learning about Diwali, Eid and so on. If I were Nationalist, I suppose I'd be growling at all these things? And wanting to 'send them all home'? 'Not British, harrumph' etc? I certainly don't do that.

And when I'm in W Africa, I love it there too. And growl just a bit to see the younger folk drinking cans of Coke (quite new over there) and the young lassies wearing T shirts over their pagnes. I seem to want their traditions to be preserved too. I don't want all countries and peoples to be exactly the same, I like their individual quirks and ways. Is this Nationalism, Patriotism, Traditionalism or what?

I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia.
Sounds a bit wet and sappy I suppose, but it's the best I can come up with. ("Peace and Love, man!" and all that. I'm still a Hippy at heart!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:53 AM

Bloody southerner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:24 AM

"I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia."
A perfect summing up of a difficult subject - a definite "wish I'd said that"
"It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country."
Certainly not - it is the duty of any Government to work in the best interests of every singly occupant of that country, or at the very least, t6ake all their interests into consideration, no matter whether they voted, who they voted for and wherever they came from.
People vted for Brexit largely to get rid of immigrants - the well being of the country as a whole came a very poor second.
Given the shambolically uncertain outcome, it would be interesting to see the result if the vote was held again.
Brexit was an example of nationalism at its very worst and most dangerous - a racists charter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

from "The seasons of Peace" by Bob Beers

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,

Cold are the patriot winds
That scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
That grow in the seasons of peace."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

""I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia."
A perfect summing up of a difficult subject - a definite "wish I'd said that"
"It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country."
Certainly not - it is the duty of any Government to work in the best interests of every singly occupant of that country, or at the very least, t6ake all their interests into consideration, no matter whether they voted, who they voted for and wherever they came from.
People vted for Brexit largely to get rid of immigrants - the well being of the country as a whole came a very poor second.
Given the shambolically uncertain outcome, it would be interesting to see the result if the vote was held again.
Brexit was an example of nationalism at its very worst and most dangerous - a racists charter"


A thousand times "Amen" to all of that, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

People voted for Brexit for all kinds of reasons. If we'd had an option to vote for a Norway type deal in which free movement was guaranteed, but a greater measure of independence was available, I'd have been tempted to go for it, to make sure the railways and other bits of the economy could be brought back into public ownership without running into problems with the EU.

Of course the referendum made no reference to a clampdown on free movement, and it would be perfectly consistent with the result of the vote to retain it, and I'd love to see a settlement in which this right was preserved. Actually I'm pretty certain that if we'd had a referendum giving us the three choices, on an alternative vote system, that is, the choice of staying in the EU, of getting out and ending free movement, or of getting out while maintaining it, the third option would have ended up getting the majority.
............
I'd class myself as a universal patriot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

Mr McGrath....I am genuinely amazed that you are in favour of "free movement" within the EU.....its is unfair and exploitative, it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour.

I am totally against it....do you really think that I am a racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM

'...our own young people...' Well, all young people the world over are 'our own' in a sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

So.....what do you think of the fact that a large majority of SNP supporters voted "remain" in the recent referendum?
I think that is shows they would rather be part of Europe, rather than be truly independent and be governed by Scottish politicians from Scotland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM

"it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour."
No - it gives those young people an opportunity to work and not to be forced onto, crappy training schemes without being given a choice
Given the level of unemployment there is hardly any worthwhile work in Britain and there will be considerably less when Brexit begins to eally bite - even the economists have admitted that
All because the lady can say "No Immigrants"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:51 PM

Bigoted
Reactionary
English
Xenophobic
Intolerant
Territorial...... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:10 PM

As I indicated, I don't assume people voting for Brexit were necessarily racist. I don't even assume people opposed to freedom of movement are necessarily racist.

It's just that I value the immigrants we've been getting whether from Poland or Scotland.

If I lived in a country plagued by emigration, such as Poland - or Scotland - I'd be very much in favour of finding ways of reducing the pressures on young people to emigrate, and curing the plague of emigration. That would cut down on immigration here, but I'd be glad to feel that the people we'd be losing would have the opportunity to stay home where in most cases they'd far sooner be. But stopping them coming at this end, no way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:48 PM

TERIBUS sez: "Joe please remember when talking about the foolishness of Brexit that the USA would never have entertained the idea of joining such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else."



The USA DID join such a single market - the effort began in the 1780s, but almost ended in failure in the 1860s. I'm traveling in the Southern US now, and I'm constantly reminded to respect the sovereignty of the individual states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:54 AM

Comparing apples and oranges Joe and you know it.

1776 you had 13 "colonial" states with common language, common and very simple aims, common currency and a common understanding of what government was and code of law. Where on earth is the comparison to the EU.

The USA did NOT join such a single market in the 1780s it created it's own and right from the start it was created as a political entity. We here in Britain were lied to and conned twice into believing that we were joining a trading block and ended up having a political union forced upon us that required us to relinquish our own sovereign rights and make our own courts subservient to a foreign legal body.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:50 AM

PFR....Realistic?   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:55 AM

Jim, I can't make sense of the following comment.

""it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour."
No - it gives those young people an opportunity to work and not to be forced onto, crappy training schemes without being given a choice"

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, simply cant grasp your meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:59 AM

There's a helpful entry on Nationalism at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy here.

LFF


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:17 AM

I come at it from a completely different angle to Teribus in that I was a Remainer - however on his last point as far as I am concerned he is correct. The US and EU are not comparable as the US is an established nation state (best term I could come up with) whilst the EU is a large group of established nation states working together sacrificing some measure of sovereignty in the process. Sure the US is a single market created from smaller constituent parts but in that sense it is already comparable to the UK - or Italy or Germany etc. All created within the last few hundred years from smaller kingdoms, principalties, duchies etc. I imagine even the bulk of Remainers wouldn't want to see a single European super state comparable to the US!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:45 AM

Allan Conn wrote: I imagine even the bulk of Remainers wouldn't want to see a single European super state comparable to the US!


I thought that this was exactly the 'hidden agenda' that drove the EU. Ever Closer Union and tighter financial controls. A single European Super State was precisely the 'truth' they tried to keep hidden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM

The USA is not much smaller than the EU in population. One of its states alone has a much larger economy than most EU countries. Apart from the UK, twenty miles offshore, and islands that are not separate nations, the EU nations are pretty much a contiguous block. The US has Hawaii and Alaska, making the country less contiguous than the EU. There are tensions in both the EU between poorer "southern" states and the more prosperous "north." There is free movement of people in both. There are no tariff barriers between states/nations in both. The nations/states in both, crucially, are fiercely proud, to a greater or lesser extent, of their distinctive identities and are generally successful in maintaining them. In both, the nations/states enjoy a fair degree of autonomy whilst having to abide by laws that cover the whole lot of them. In general, these laws are overwhelmingly accepted by everyone, and representatives from all nation states/states have a say in making those laws. In both, there will be disagreements about some of those laws, but substantial disagreements are few and far between. There are plenty of differences between the two blocks, regarding language barriers and the origins and evolution of the two unions, and there's the disease of gigantism that afflicts both. But there are plenty of similarities, and Joe's comparison stands. It behoves us to examine what it is that works in each and to be informed by that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:24 AM

"I thought that this was exactly the 'hidden agenda' that drove the EU."

You were wrong then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM

"Jim, I can't make sense of the following comment."
Training schemes are set up to pay lip service to high unemployment.
They either train for low paid jobs people don't want to do and cannot afford to take because the rates of pay of minimal.
They are there to force many into the lowest paid jobs rather than to provide genuine, remunerative work.
Being a member of the E.U. entitled workers to seek work abroad for decent rates of pay.
Over the years, Britain has lost all its major industries - if Scotland becomes independent, as it now may, thanks to Brexit, it will have lost its last major shipyards.
Brexit was pushed through on the xenophobia ticket - you know this - you were the first to crow about it.
You nor any of you Brexiters have had the bottle to respond to the storm of race hate you have managed to stir up - and we haven't begun to deport refugees yet!
Our shops are full of exported goods manufactured under slave labour condidtions and Brixit means that we will not take refugees from the conditions we have helped create.
Imperialism without the Empire
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM

Thanks Jim, but I still don't get it.
Many Immigrants send their minimal wages back home where they are worth three or four times as much, whereas as you know, a young married Brit on minimum wage can hardly survive, never mind buy a house or bring up a family.

Mass immigration drives DOWN wages and puts huge strains on public services......It is an economic policy, and not a socialist one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:05 AM

The only way mass immigration can drive down wages is if employers are allowed to get away with it. If a job doesn't pay enough for someone with family responsibilities in this country it is not paying a living wage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM

MGOH that all presupposes that the "employers" are British, that the "employees" are directly employed and that their employment contracts are subject to British Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:28 AM

The brexiteers are happy to blame everyone but the government for the perceived injustices they think are being perpetrated on them. Their right-wing pals didn't control immigration when they said they would so now it's the EU's fault, and they're quite prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater by excluding people we need in our universities by restricting freedom of movement and borders on science and research for the sake of a few Eastern-European workers whose jobs no Brit wants to do anyway.

All this feeds into their nationalistic delusions of 'taking back control' on the day the government refuses to tell us what sweeteners the taxpayer will be stumping up to keep Nissan in the UK, the pound is tanking (higher prices for us plebs, here we come) and a quiet exodus of service industries (especially financial) is underway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM

"Mass immigration drives DOWN wages"
Not according to official figures - this is one of the great myths used by politicians who rely on the race card to win popularity - one of the oldest political lies in the book.
Employers drive down wages, not immigrants, who are being used as scapegoats, as they always have been.
Even if it were true, the answer would be to regulate wages, not drive out refugees from conditions we have played a major part in creating.
We continue to sell arms to despots who create the conditions these impoverished people are fleeing from and we fill our shops with their products.
This is plain, simple racism - it is not even good economics - and it is totally devoid of a shred of humanity.
I've said this before, but if wartime Britain had adopted the same stance as is being adopted here, there would have been a lot more dead Jews.
The people you pay lip service to getting rid of to create a better world stay in power by turning the poor against the poorer, and you have made yourself a strident advocate of that disgraceful tactic - shame on you - it totally undermines any claim you make to being a socialist.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM

Yet taking all that at face value Stu - we are doing much, much better than "Europe" and those countries in the Eurozone.

As for the "taking back control" thing - out of the EU and free from its interference the country has a chance of doing just that whereas stuck inside the EU we stand no chance whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

"we are doing much, much better than "Europe" and those countries in the Eurozone."

How can our performance be assessed at present though? The signs are mixed for sure, but then we're in a sort of phoney peace before Article 50 is triggered; we know other Japanese firms are being approached to leave the UK. These signs are not good, with only exports being something to cheer about. For the time being I think we're in a sort of limbo, not helped any the tories reverting to their authoritarian default position and leaving us all in the dark.

As for control, we've destroyed any chance of influencing pretty much anyone, we're even inviting the Chinese to take control of part of our infrastructure with their crappy nuclear reactor. We've caved already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM

"taking back control"
Until we replace th industries destroyed by former governments, tha only thing Britain can 'take control of" is its borders - an impoverished Fortress Britain reliant on imports
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:54 PM

RE: BS; American Exceptionalism = BS extraordinaire.

Jim needs to learn his real enemy; Trans National Corporations & Banks

Joe Nat./Pat. are two different things. You made a gross false equivalency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:06 PM

It amuses how we keep getting stuff about how Brexit isn't so bad after all, when we are still years off getting it.

As I've commented before, it's like jumping off a skyscraper and congratulating yourself on the way down that it's all working out fine.

It's an awfully long way down...

Or there's the story of the man who took an overdose of paracetamol, and woke up in hospital, and was so pleased the suicide hadn't worked. Excep that it had - only it takes a bit of time to die from the effects of a paracetamol overdose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM

If I understand the spirit of the opening question correctly then I would reservedly go for bad. We are all in this together and like it or not the world is now really becoming the global village. Nationalism can pander to the looking after number one philosophy that has caused many problems in the past. There is no reason that people should ensure that there own little corner of the world thrives to the detriment of those in another land. However we do not know how unfettered globalisation would fare either as it is not something that has ever been tried. We do know that unrestricted capitalism does not work and neither does unopposed socialism.

Maybe we should learn from our mistakes and realise that it is the excesses of any one economic model that can work against us? Perhaps we should try properly regulated capitalism or socialism tinged with the reality of a consumer society? Maybe nationalism can work as long as it remains within the confines of what is best for everyone rather than what is best for yourself?

As to patriotism. Well, again, extremes are what we need to guard against. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the achievements of your country, as long as you can honestly lay claim to helping with those achievements. Being patriotic to the extent of believing that your accident of birth is somehow more important or better than someone elses accident of birth seems somewhat futile and often simply confrontational.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:49 AM

"It amuses how we keep getting stuff about how Brexit isn't so bad after all, when we are still years off getting it."

If that is your view Kevin because "we are still years off getting it" then the reverse is also true, i.e. "all this stuff about how Brexit is so bad".

Your views and those of many of those who put the case for remaining seem based on the premise that everything within the EU is fine when we all know that it is not. For decades it has needed drastic reform and some of it's major players have required drastic reform which they all seem totally incapable of carrying out.

The Euro and fiscal union were according to those who thought the idea up only feasible once political union had been achieved and established. The EU in its own inimitable style for propaganda reasons put the horse before the cart and did things the wrong way round. The leading advocate of the Euro is now its greatest critic.

The problems facing Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France have not gone away. In good old EU Commission fashion the can has just been kicked down the road a little way to stave off them having to do anything about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM

"If I understand the spirit of the opening question correctly then I would reservedly go for bad."

I'd say bad nationalism is bad. It is simply wrong to dismiss all nationalists as believing in something bad. As I've already pointed out and evidenced by the youtube clip the current leadership and direction of the nationalists in Scotland is much more open and inclusive than the leadership and direction of the British gvt. Of course in truth both are nationalist it is just that they disagree on what should be their national gvt.

Some simple facts. The nationalist gvt in Scotland gave EU citizens the vote in the Scottish referendum - the UK gvt did not in the EU referendum. The SNP in their white paper on independence guaranteed that everyone legally living in Scotland would retain their rights of residence in an independent Scotland - whereas months after the Brexit vote the UK gvt still chooses not to guarantee such rights so that EU citizens can be used as pawns in negotiations. Of the major politicians the SNP leader was one of the first, possible the first, to castigate the UK gvt for not guaranteeing such rights. The SNP leader held public meetings with hundreds of respresentatives of EU citizens tring to assure them that the Scottish gvt would do everything it can to secure their rights.

Sorry but this idea that if you are a nationalist then you automatically believe in something wrong and negative simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Each person should be judged on their actions and what they say and not castigated if they believe their national gvt should be something other than what it is at the moment. Believing in the self determination of the nation is not the same as being chauvinistic and believing that your nation is superior and more important than other nations. It is perfectly compatible to believe in independence and want your country to be inclusive, open and ready to work together with other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM

"Jim needs to learn his real enemy; Trans National Corporations & Banks"
The really enemy is the Enemy Within - the Governments and politician who allow "Trans National Corporations & Banks" to run roughshod over the will and well-being of the population as a whole.
Without Government and political support and with firm regulation, they would be merely businesses plying a trade.
Surely the various banking crises are evidence enough of that - maybe not!
Allan is right - "bad nationalism is bad".
Good Nationalism brought about the fall of Empires and freed the world to go their own way - and make their own mistakes.
Unfortunately, the British Establishment has retained some of the worst aspects of Imperialism and has used the inherent 'superiority' that was drilled into my generation to engender hate and fear towards those we once ruled - we have the perfect example on this forum in the handful of flag-waggers who still talk about "the brainwashed Irish" and the "culturally implanted" Pakistanis and the Scots who "couldn't make it on their own" and the "Frogs who never won a war".......
Racial intolerance and xenophobia is never far below the surface in Britain and has a nasty habit of floating to the surface whenever it is needed to keep us in our place.   
RACISM in BRITAIN
Pride in ones people and their achievements is laudable - blind support for any nation and its institutions "My Country - Right and Wrong" is evil and dangerous.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM

Hence the 'if I understand correctly' and 'reservedly bad' comment Allan. I understand the OP to mean what you describe as 'bad nationalism' and not all nationalism. I am in full agreement with your sentiments in the last paragraph but, unfortunately, nationalism as you describe seems to have attracted more than it's fair share of the other type. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I think it may be the type of nationalism engendered by 'The Sun' and other such organs that he is referring to.

Maybe the word has now been twisted too far and we need a new one? Or, better still, maybe the bad type of nationalism should find it's own!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM

Allan Conn - Now tell the good people about the Scots who the SNP refused to give the vote to.

EU citizens living in Scotland included those who had no intention of living in Scotland on any sort of permanent basis

Included students who could vote and then disappear back to their own countries and never have to suffer the consequences.

The SNP set the franchise as wide as it possibly could in the hope of getting the result they wanted - the strategy failed.

EU membership is a complete and utter red-herring. In terms of trade, Scotland's main trading partner is England therefore economically the Union with England is of far greater importance to Scotland than the EU.

Irrespective of any referendum on Scottish Independence, that independent Scotland will not automatically be a member of the EU. The time line would be as follows:

Referendum result for an independent Scotland.
Two years after which the break-up of the Union is finalised.
Scotland then has to apply for EU membership subject to acceptance of that application by all other member state governments.
Time taken to meet EU entry criteria, politically, socially and economically (Probably looking at about 5 to 10 year period).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:59 AM

"EU membership is a complete and utter red-herring."
No it isn't.
Trade takes place between England and Scotland because it is of mutal interest that it should happen, not because of English links with Scotland.
There is no reason in the world why trade should not continue if the political link was broken by independence.
Britain fought tooth and nail to maintain trade links with its old colonies, just as it is fighting to keep the markering links with Europe after Brexit - why should Scotland be any different?
It is arguments like these that fill the seas with red-herrings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:12 AM

"Your views and those of many of those who put the case for remaining seem based on the premise that everything within the EU is fine when we all know that it is not. For decades it has needed drastic reform and some of it's major players have required drastic reform which they all seem totally incapable of carrying out.

In fact I have pretty well invariably indicated that the EU as it stands badly needs a lot of reforms. I am confident you would not be sble to find one single post in which I have said anything approximating to what you accuse me of saying.

Jeremy Corbyn was criticised for saying that he was only 7 out of ten in favour of staying in the EU. I feel the same way, and I imagine a great many others did as well. But 7 out of ten is a significant margin of preference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:12 PM

"Trade takes place between England and Scotland because it is of mutual interest that it should happen, not because of English links with Scotland.

There is no reason in the world why trade should not continue if the political link was broken by independence."


At the time of the Independence Referendum there was a very good reason why trade would have been seriously affected had Scotland opted for Independence in 2014 - The UK would have been an EU Member State and the Newly Independent Scotland would not. This would have affected 80% of Scotland's trade.

As far as Scotland is concerned 80% of her trade and economy is connected to England and the United Kingdom and 20% with the rest of the world and the EU - so tell me which link is the more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:47 PM

"At the time of the Independence Referendum "
That was then - this is now.
Fortress England cannot afford to cease trade with anybody - hence the present accusations of the Republic" attempting to steal British Trade.
As you still refuse to link your pronouncements to anything resempleing evidence, we have toy take you at your word -as ever.
Given your track record - thanks, but no thanks.
You really do love selecting only the bit of information that suit your jingoism, don't you?
It's fairly obvious that the Scots Nats see Scotland's future with Europe rather than Britain's floundering economy - maybe they don't mind welcoming foreigners to their shores - funny people, the Scots!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM

Going only on the thread title, without having even read the OP... The same word can mean many things to different people. An entire sentence / comment of several words, therefore... I'm sure you can all think of your own examples of something where you / they / someone said "X" and they / you / someone HEARD "Y".

In my opinion, it's where an awful lot of misunderstandings arise. In my experience, it simply never occurs to most people that when someone uses word or expression "X", what they or others hear isn't *necessarily* the same thing. Especially in an email or internet post, which people WILL treat as a conversation; despite the lack of inflection, body language, etc; rather than as a letter, and all sorts of flames result. And which, naturally, doesn't stop "most people" leaping to all sorts of conclusions, making judgements, etcetera!

Anyway, to me, nationalism and patriotism are two entirely different things. Patriotism boils down to "I am proud of my country"; nationalism to "my country is best!". The difference? Implicit is that I can be proud of my country whilst being well aware of a lot of shit things that it's done (we did good things too). But if my country is best? The "implicit" is "How dare you criticise my country, how dare you suggest we ever did anything shit!"

To put it another way, as a patriot, I can appreciate your patriotism / pride in your entirely different nation. As a nationalist, I condescendingly acknowledge your pride, knowing all the time that you are inherently inferior...

If you see what I mean? On balance, no. By my personal definition of nationalism, it is a bloody disaster zone. Patriotism, proper patriotism, is great. I'm proud English, British, European, man of the world. In that order. If you're a proud German, Yank, Canuck, Whatever... Good for you!

Nationalism is a cancer. You're not better than me. You're just different (and probably narrow-minded).

If you see what I mean...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:05 PM

Since Scotland would have no problems about retaining free movement, even if it had been excluded from the EU (that's very much "even if") there would have been no comparable difficulties standing way of staying in the tariff free area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:16 PM

Mr McGrath, Scotland has not seen the effects of mass unregulated immigration that have become apparent in large areas of England and Wales. In Scotland we have Pakistani and Indian Communities who have settled in our cities over a very long period. They arrived in manageable numbers and although not fully integrated they get on reasonably well with indigenous Scots.

If Scotland becomes independent, or should I say "WHEN" Scotland becomes independent it will have to be decided what style of government will be adopted.....it may be a socialist, liberal, or conservative govt depending on the economic conditions which prevail at that time.

I would not like to see a new Scotland build its economy on the backs of cheap immigrant labour....even if it meant a fall in living standards; I want to see full employment for our people, decent wages, and compulsory work experience for all school leavers.

After independence it should not be an option to keep a generation on minimal benefits or short term contract employment.
Nationalism should mean giving our people inspiration and a chance of a proper future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM

That's as may be. However the present Scottish government has indicated it has no wish to halt free movement, and is still trying to get the Westminster to assist in finding a way for the country to avoid being dragged out of the EU by England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:16 PM

The original post said "I've been thinking about nationalism in all it's various guises and forms and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing" so to me nationalism in all it's various guises and forms would have to include not just the completely democratically based civic nationalism in the likes of Scotland but also the likes of the singing revolution in the Baltic states etc during the collapse of the Soviet Empire. Plus of course it would include the British nationalism displayed by many in the No campaign itself. If one is going to denounce chauvinism, bigotry and xenophobia then denounce them - but tarring all nationalists as chauvinistic, bigoted and xenophobic is in itself not a fair and balanced thing to do. That is all I am saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM

The trouble with the idea that Scotland voted Remain because it has less immigrants doesn't completely hold up. Yes Scotland has less immigrants per head of population than England has - but it has more than Wales has and Scotland voted Remain whilst Wales voted Leave. The UK as a whole has 8.4% of the usual residents who are non-British nationals. England has 9%; Wales has 3.9% and Scotland has 5.4%. So if the reason is just based on how many immigrants you have why did Wales not vote Remain? And why did London vote Remain whilst some areas of England with far fewer immigrants vote Leave.

Surely what also affects things is the rhetoric and language of your politicians plus how strong the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP were in the area. Basically in Scotland all the main parties were actively and officially pro-EU apart from the Tories who were not allowed to take an offical party line although the leadership of the Tory party in Scotland was pro-EU. The only comparable figure to a Boris or Farage within Scotland was Cockburn and he is looked on as a joke and a bit of a pariah. Basically whatever individuals on here think about the Brexit issue itself- the Scottish based politicians were giving the message that it was a positive thing to stay in the EU. On a wider UK stage though it was different. Leavers were vocal whilst the leadership of Labour seemed apathetic and the message from number 10 was "yes it is not great being in the EU, but I suppose we'd better stay in, and maybe we could make it a wee bit better". The only strong support was from the Lib Dems who were sidelined through their fall from favour. That has bound to have had an effect too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:33 AM

At the moment the SNP are riding a wave in Scotland, they have a huge electoral base.

I believe, through discussion with other nationalists, that many voted to remain simply because it was Party Policy.
I am a member, but there are a few of the policies advanced by my party with which I quite strongly disagree, but I vote SNP for independence and when that is achieved, then is the time to sort out the detail.
Although Wales has a smaller number of immigrants from within the EU they are concentrated in smaller areas where the detrimental effects on public services have become more apparent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:38 AM

"Plus of course it would include the British nationalism displayed by many in the No campaign itself."

It's quite interesting how the Scot nats distance themselves from the Brit nats. Scottish nationalism has (at least in the mind of it's supporters) elevated itself to a level of political sophistication and is possessed of a far more noble spirit of civic inclusivity than could ever be south of the border. It distances itself from it's willing participation in Empire and the subsequent consequences of it's actions as part of the union; a rewriting of history designed to reinforce the self-image of Scots as an oppressed people, never part of the machine of oppression. Scotland has been failed by Westminster for sure, but then so has any part of the UK outside the M25. Independence can be achieved without the sort of sneering we see from nats of all nations on these islands.

This distortion of history and air of superiority is exactly what nationalism is about, and is startlingly similar in some respects to Brit nationalism. Whilst the question of sovereignty is a legitimate one (perhaps the only one in the case of leaving the EU), the Scots are happy to cede theirs to Brussels rather than Westminster. This is all well and good (and were I a Scot I would vote for independence and staying in the EU), but it makes a mockery of Scottish self-determination in every aspect of their life as the point of being in the EU is decisions are made collectively for the good of the whole and these decisions will at some point run counter to the wishes or even best interests of some of the states involved.

Scottish nationalism is far more about standing under the Saltire flicking the V's to Westminster as Brexit is Little Englanders doing the same under the butcher's apron to Brussels than it is about sovereignty or the right to self-determination.

Nationalism is about divisions, about the reverting of states from trading blocks and social progression to isolationism and wall-building. It is retrogressive and I'd like to think that one day a world without nationalism will exist, and people can get on with working out how to live together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM

"where the detrimental effects on public services"
You can repeat this racist misinformation as often as you want Ake, but there are no proven "detrimental effects by immigrants - on the contrary - our hospital services would be in dire trouble without immigrant doctors and nurses, our trains and buses would never have got onto the roads in the needed numbers.....
Immigrants came to Britain, worked hard and became invaluable members of the communities they formed and joined.   
Over the three decades I lived in London they revolutionised shopping - prior to the end of the sixties, you could't buy a bottle of milk after six o'clock on the Fulham Road or Camden High Street - the Asian corner shops put an end to that.
Apart from the cultural value of meeting strangers from foreign parts, immigration has proved a massive benefit to Britain.
"Detrimental effects??
Such stuff are the BNP and Ukip made of.
You really need to peep out of your Xenophobic bunker occasionally and visit the real world sometime.
Arguments like yours are the problem-causers, not your victims.
Your persistence in repeating untruths is little short of hate-speech - and inhuman, with it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM

Some facts you might care to examine Ake – or not, as the case may be!
Jim Carroll

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/18/mass-eu-migration-into-britain-is-actually-good-news-for-uk-economy

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/government-loses-battle-trigger-article-50-without-consulting-parliament

https://fullfact.org/immigration/migration-and-welfare-benefits/

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

"indigenous Scots"

What indigenous Scots would those be, Ake? Would that be the Irish bastards who invaded Hibernia over the course of the 6th & 7th centuries, culminating in a massacre (allegedly) of the INDIGENOUS poor little Pictses, masterminded by that prize bastard Kenneth mac Alpin (allegedly)?

Just akin', I mean *cough* askin'... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:05 PM

Bet you were just akin to ask that you old devil, but as I wasn't around at the time of the Picsees or Colkitto Mc Donald or the Vikings.....I cant answer.
But these folks were not economic migrants they were warriors and explorers, the world was their oyster.

Times and Places Raedwulf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:10 PM

I think about three generations today would produce an "indigenous Scot".....Unless you started off English of course!!

Ten generations might about nail that. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:14 PM

Only ten! My, but you're feelin' ginrous tanite. Can ah borra ten-pince, da'? :p


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM

Twa shillin's!!!   awa an' dinnae be daft lad. :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:04 PM

Tight-fisted ol' bastard, so yez iz! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:17 PM

Before this thread rides off into the sunset, can I just mention what I believe to be a positive form of nationalism.
This year has marked the centenary of The Easter Rising in Ireland – it has been truly magnificent.
There have been no displays of jingoism or hatred for the former Empire – certainly not in my experience.
Certainly, there has been pride in being the first country to challenge the might of the most powerful Empire in the world and start the dominoes tumbling, but this has been carried out intelligently and sensitively, with as much self examination and criticism as it has in attacking the 8 centuries of foreign influence.   
The celebration has included a landslide of fresh information in the form of literature and film – a truly healthy and open debate of a momentous event in Irish History.
I've been interested in the subject for most of my life, but I've learned more on the subject in the last 10 months than I have over half a century – and it's only jus begun.
From now to 2022, we'll be hearing about The War of Independence, right up to the signing of the Treaty.
Don't know where we are going to find room on our bookshelves!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

Delighted to hear it, Jim. I've already said my piece on patriotism. Nothing wrong with being patriotic, and jolly good luck to Ireland (as if you need it with all those leprechauns, sheil... no wait, that's Australia... shillelaghs, clovers & whatnot!).

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:17 PM

"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism.... By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
-- George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism" (1945)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:28 PM

An example of what Jim said there was the 72c stamps issued as part of the commemoration series. It shows a picture of Constable James O'Brien of The Royal Irish Constabulary, the first man killed in the Easter Rising, and of Sean Connolly of the Citizens' Army, who shot him, and who was himself killed laterh the same day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM

Orwell's piece ignores something basic that he ironically, witnessed first hand - by all reports, while he was in the right place at the right time, he wasn't particularly interested in gathering the full picture; my father once commented on his reputation for remoteness among the volunteers during the Spanish Civil War.
In times of national struggle, nationalism can play a positive, even essential part - India, Spain and Ireland are prime examples.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

Words again, Jim. What you describe is, to me, patriotism. Not nationalism. Being proud of... Orwell may well have been a bit one-eyed, but the quote that Joe offered (the pun is accidental!) is only my earlier words in an earlier form (no, I've never seen them before).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM

"Not nationalism."
It was about building a new independent country - pride came later.
All a matter of semantics, I suppose.
It's always seemed to me that Nationalism works in times of political struggle - it's peacetime nationalism that causes the problems.
Irish nationalism is by definition, based on a demand for national independence from foreign influence - I don't have a problem with that - though, as an Internationalist I would much prefer it if all national borders disappeared tomorrow - not in my lifetime unfortunately.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 12:10 PM

Not in any of our lifetimes, I'm afraid. And this is very definitely a patriot talking (typing). But then, I suppose, that is also central to my view of patriotism - there's no room for hatred.

As an Englishman, of course I hate the Scots & the Welsh! ;-) But in a friendly way. If you see what I mean. I know there are celts who genuinely hate the English. And equally stupid English who hate... whatever. But that's Nationalism, not Patriotism.

I know about a lot of the shit stuff that England, Britain, & Europe have done down the centuries (most of it to each other!). I remain proud of the good things that England, Britain, Europe have done, believing that we were trying to make the world a better place. Why should I hate anyone? I don't think that being English, British, European, makes me better than anyone else. Just different. But Nationalism? Oh dear... :-/ If you see what I mean...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM

Just posted this on another thread. Equally apt here. I am sure you will recognise the artists and enjoy it anyway :-)

Traitor's Love


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:20 PM

Based on a conversation on Mudcat apparently! But I have not checked with George so I cannot confirm that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM

If the Scottish National Party was to change it's name to the Scottish Patriot Party, I'd be deeply suspicious that it meant it was turning nasty.

It's just words, and words change meaning. Republican means something rather different in Ireland and the USA. Liberal Democrat means something different in England and Russia. There are places where "Patriot" means racist bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:57 PM

There are places where "Patriot" means racist bigot.

You mean like

HERE

and

HERE

and

HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:51 PM

Which, I suppose, only proves the point I made to Jim, and the point I made originally - the same word means different things to different people. Even if you do your best to define what you mean! I've explained exactly what I mean with each word. If any of you want to hear something different when I use either word...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:09 PM

I'm about 10 years younger than you lot... punk rock teen of the 70s..

Ideologically correct educated 20 something of the 80s..

Patriot and nationalist both have bad connotations for my generation...

But us good guys can reclaim the best of those two suspect words
by appropriating the better word "identity"

for our positive requirments..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:09 AM

There are people who hold all sorts of views .....sure some nationalists are bigots, BUT there are places, believe it or not, where to be liberal means to be fair and open minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 03:36 PM

" liberal means to be fair and open minded."
As you make a point of expressing your contempt for "liberals" and nobody could accuse you of being "open minded" - how would you know?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 03:46 PM

"I'm about 10 years younger than you lot... punk rock teen of the 70s.."

Yeah, I know. I used to have to try to teach science to pillocks like you in Poplar in the 70s.. 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 03:59 PM

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception. George Orwell Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM

Steve - Hah... you should have tried in the west country.. we gave our newly qualified Physics teacher a break down...

Punkfolkrocker failed Physics and Chemistry O Levels..

[Leaning guitar, and girls were too big a distraction in summer 1975.]

But did get a grade B in Biology...🐦 🐝 🐦 🐝


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:45 PM

I taught in the West Country for eleven years, in Holsworthy. Totally different issue. The girls all wanted to ride horses and the lads all wanted to be janners just like their dads, driving tractors and telling the rest of us that we "didn't understand the the ways of the country." Twats! On a hiding to nothing trying to tell the buggers how important Einstein was, etc. But I loved it, and still do!

It's years later now, but recently I saw one of them girls from behind, nicely grown up by now, riding a horse and wearing a hi-viz vest with "does my bum look big on this?" emblazoned on the back. Jaysus, what is it about the rear view of a good bum bouncing on top of a horse....😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM

"I'm about 10 years younger than you lot... punk rock teen of the 70s.."

So you're another old fart, then? Still, at least there's no hint of Yorkshire about you... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 11:18 PM

errrmmm.. I lived in Leeds and Bradford 1978 to 1981...

Moved back home with a bit of a northern accent... 🙄

Directly relating this to the thread topic, that's where i first ever encountered NF thugs in the streets..

In Leeds, there was a cheaply produced regular [monthly or weekly - can't remember] lefty alternative magazine.
Part whats on guide, part didactic political issue pamphlet...

That was a huge influence on my thinking and personal development back in my early 20s...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 01:09 PM

Regionalism perhaps is a more acceptable form of nationalism...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:32 PM

As a Yorkshireman with Scottish, Irish and Jewish ancestry and one French and one Irish son-in-law, I was feeling happily European until I started to suspect that the Common Market we had joined in the 70s thinking it would be a European Commonwealth was turning into something horribly like a 4th Reich. Nonetheless I voted to remain in the EU.

I can'tell help but feel that the country that has been my home for most of my life has slipped away from me. I have watched London go from bowlers to burkas in my working lifetime. Although I have enjoyed many a curry in Brick Lane, I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops or were work colleagues and friends whose religion was incidental and the weasel word "islamophobia" hadn't been invented.

The England I knew for most of my life has gone, so whither nationalism? I am far from convinced that "multiculturalism" is an improvement and dread the prospect of my children and grandchildren being increasingly subject to the barbarian seventh century influence of sharia imposed by political correctness, demographic and immigrant pressures.

Does this make me a closet nationalist, a racist and a bigot, or just a boring old fart?

Discuss

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 08:52 PM

Well I'll just chuck in my two and fourpence here in defence of a certain sentiment behind, er, nationalism (or is it...)

We live in a crowded world of billions in which it's increasingly difficult to assert your identity, whether that means you personally, your family, your town, your county or your country. McDonalds and CocaCola and HSBC infiltrate every country and make everywhere look the same. I was in in Puglia in southern Italy in June, the poorest part of Italy with the possible exception of Sicily (which I also love to bits) and the received wisdom there is that anyone visiting that beautiful and (still, for now) distinctive part of the world now is lucky, because within ten years it'll turn into the same as everywhere else. You can assert your identity by having an afro, a tattoo, wearing rings in your nose or by killing twenty people in a school. You can join or form a club or a pressure group or join a political party. Anything to make you distinct. Both good and bad things can come out of people's struggle for identity and distinctiveness, but struggle it is. I've mentioned John Seymour, that guru of self-sufficiency, before. He was also a bit political, often in a right-wing way that I sometimes found indigestible, but one thing he railed against was gigantism. Massive, multinational corporations and huge states that have lost all sight of the interests of individuals and their human need for individuality. Behemoths such as Russia, China, India and the EU (and a good number even smaller ones than those). Human beings in general don't want to be anonymous ciphers in the furtherance of some state that claims that its interests trump those of the individual. You're very likely to get little regions that have long cherished their distinct character rearing up their heads and forming either official or unofficial protest groups, or showing their qualities by promoting their their distinct culture. Every big country has these groups. Spain placates its very distinctive regions by allowing them considerable autonomy. Good thing too, though even that doesn't satisfy the Basques and the Catalans. History always adds a twist to the tale, and so it should. The Welsh and Scots and Irish are great at promoting their distinctiveness without dissing anyone else's. John Seymour said he wanted to see the world broken up into far more small countries, no behemoths. Even East Anglia if it wanted to. Even Wales could shut pubs on Sundays if it wanted to (not something he was happy with, though he was more than happy for them to make that stupid move if they wanted to). If we don't allow people in their communities a considerable degree of self-expression and self-determination, then we'll inevitably generate the kind of negative nationalism that some people here complain about. Whose fault would that be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 09:05 PM

The England you knew is still there. It's evolved, that's all. Those brown faces you see belong to your fellow human beings, not a bunch of aliens from Zod. Get out the there, see what they sell in their shops and in in their their stalls and buy some of it. Tbe stallholder or shopkeeper would love to indulge in small talk about tbe rotten weather, just like everybody else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 09:11 PM

Proofreader required. Must be able to work from home (mine), and I'm absolutely determined to break the glass ceiling...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 10:12 PM

my children and grandchildren being increasingly subject to the barbarian seventh century influence of sharia

You're kidding, right? This is just meant as a joke in poor taste, right?

If not, recommmend you emigrate quickly and vote for Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:07 AM

Lanfranc....A fine thoughtful post Alan, though I'm sure you will find it hard going here......weasels abound! :0)

You are neither bigoted or boring, just insightful.....which is even worse in weasel land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:24 AM

Those peaceful people are still there, Alan, and in the majority. Just because the gutter press tell us different does not mean that the fears you hold for your children and grandchildren are founded. In fact, my fear is much more a world controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch in which hate and prejudice against a race, religion or nation is used to divert people from where the real problems lie.

I don't think you are any of the things that you mention but you have fallen for the lies being told. Don't feel bad about it - You are not alone!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:46 AM

"I can'tell help but feel that the country that has been my home for most of my life has slipped away from me. I have watched London go from bowlers to burkas in my working lifetime."

Another poor old white man befuddled and confused by the world changing around him. This post is replete with privilege and the sort of low-level xenophobia seen in old with Brits since as long as I can remember. Ah for the good old days! To suggest this post is insightful is evidence enough that the old white folk of the UK neither understand the society they live in or have any degree of concern for the future and the young.


The young don't care about multiculturalism because they live it; to them the concept isn't alien or threatening but part of their everyday life. Virtually all the young folk I know don't even think about it any more, it's just the older generation who thinks it matters. This is why Brexit is so bad; old farts hankering for the 1970's world of Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning and the Black and White Minstrels will not have to pay for their short-termist, nationalistic and divisive voting decision. That'll be for the young folk you've set back four decades.

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
Cause the times they are a-changing"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:55 AM

Unfortunately mass populations have short memories and history repeats itself...

We seem to be on an approximately 80 - 90 year cycle at the moment... 😩


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:25 AM

You've been answered comprehensively and well, Alan (apart from the inevitable comic interlude from something beginning with a, of course). Go and reflect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:31 AM

A bit harsh I think, Stu, but you do make a valid point about the young.

I am one of those poor old white men you mention and I was brought up with the very things you mention. We are not all hankering for 'the good old days'. In fact, many of us actively try to educate others on forums such as this, in other social media and in real life about how ludicrous it is to judge people on their race, colour or creed.

It is very difficult for someone who was brought up in the 50s and 60s to remove this attitude altogether but, whenever any of the old prejudices arise, I have a little exercise I am happy to share and that is where your point about the young comes in.

I am lucky enough to live near a wonderful public park and pass through it many times a week. Whenever I go through there are children playing. Those children are all colours, creeds and nationalities but do they care? Of course not. It is so uplifting to see their complete lack of inhibition in this area that I think it should be compulsory viewing for all.

Of course if any of them dares to offend the rest in some other way, heaven help them :-) But whatever it was is usually forgotten by the time the next ball is thrown.

Whenever someone different to me does something I dislike I try to visualise those children and remember that it is the person that matters, not their background.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:37 AM

I like it when Stu is harsh. I've had it between the eyes from him more than once and I don't mind. Alan has now had good cop, bad cop. That'll do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:42 AM

Though I totally disagree on every level with the divisive, naive and simplistic sentiments expressed in Dylan's song. 👿


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM

"A bit harsh I think, Stu, but you do make a valid point about the young."

Perhaps, but all sorts of people have been coming to this country for thousands of years (including my own ancestors) and they are a vital part of our rich and diverse heritage.

Then there's this:

" I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops"

Those golden days when brown people knew their place and didn't get all uppity and shouty, expressing their culture and religion? Influencing the mainstream? This is NOT a good statement however you read it. Worse for the old white men is the fact they've been left behind and hopefully Brexit will be their last bitter hurrah before the country takes a step back to being progressive, equal and inclusive just as 48% of us like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:13 AM

I think my ancestors arrived on these shores more recently than yours Stu but please correct me if I am wrong. My Father was Polish. I have experienced prejudice first hand and yet I still grew up in the full knowledge that the blacks were taking over and Pakistanis eat Kit-e-Kat. Not from my Father I hasten to add. The only comment I ever heard him make that could be construed as either racist or sexist was, on catching a bit of "Top of the Pops" I was watching, commenting that Madelaine Bell's lips were eminently kissable :-)

But let us not get into quarrels about who is better qualified! Suffice to say that there are those who had attitudes foisted on them and try to get out of them and those who find difficulty in doing so. My little example of children playing may help some and may not. You can lead a horse to water...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM

I note that you quote that old white man Bob Dylan there Stu. So much for using age, or shade of skin as handy put downs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM

"I preferred it when the Muslims I knew were peaceful people who ran restaurants and corner shops"
Th racist drive really is an indication of Brexit raising its ugly head.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:59 AM

I rather doubt if Lanfranc has ever met any Muslims who aren't pretty peaceful people. I never have.

I haven't met many English people who are BNP supporters either, even though I know they exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:19 AM

"So much for using age"

How old was he when he wrote it?

The link between age and voting preference in the referendum is proven (check there YouGov site) and so although you could argue correlation does not imply causation, the most parsimonious argument for those figures is more old people wanted to leave the EU than young people.

I was raised in 1970's Britain where racism was the norm and the sort of attitudes expressed above were part of daily life. My own family came from Southall and their world changed beyond all recognition during their lifetimes, something they too struggled to understand. However, times do change and thankfully the 1970's attitudes only linger in those whom seem unable to grasp their old world of white privilege is gone and we live in a rich, diverse multicultural world. Do you feel your culture under threat? Then work to keep it alive locally, not by blaming people from other cultures for wanting to live here.

Look on the bright side. The old white men have had given the younger folk with their upstart ideas about diversity, equality and free movement a right good kicking, and made your point in a way that they'll remember long after you've ceased worrying about it. You really showed them what it's all about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM

Just a little background. When I finally lost patience with the Church of England discarding its traditions and the beauty of Cranmer and the King James Bible in favour of the banal and politically correct, I considered converting to Islam. Inspired by the example of Richard and Linda Thompson and encouraged by a good Muslim friend I have known for many years, I started to read the Qu'ran and Hadiths. I was appalled. If ever there was a religion obviously created by man, it was this. I next read a biography of Muhammed. This self-appointed "prophet" was evidently a murderer, a megalomaniac, a misogynist and a paedophile (oh, and an anti-semite to boot). If the Qu'ran was dictated by God, then so was Mein Kampf.
I was assured that no Muslim took the scriptures literally, but I wasn't convinced, so I reverted to agnosticism. 9/11 made me turn the corner to atheism and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind.

Before you call me a stupid bigoted old white man, do a bit of research (or just open your eyes). If you really want to have your illusions shattered, walk through Whitechapel or Manningham on a Friday night.

Islam has a 1400 year history of barbarism, slavery and slaughter and shows no sign of improvement or reformation. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM

And Christianity for even longer. Still, at least you're an atheist now, thank God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Bingo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM

Before you call me a stupid bigoted old white man,

I would never do that - it would be way too much of an understatement, considering the absolute filth contained in 08 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:02 AM

I cannot believe for one minute that Islam 'shows no sign of improvement or reformation'. That is the type of statement that really does need to be proved before and after making it. How many Muslims were barbarous, slaughtering slavers then? How many are now? What is it as a percentage of the total? It is this glib type of sound byte that gets those who know no better riled enough to harm someone. It belongs on the front page of the gutter press, not in any intelligent discussion.

And in case anyone is interested I work in and live just outside Bradford, a city almost 25% Muslim. I have walked through on a Friday night many a time and felt far less threatened than in my home city of Manchester at the same time. Purely personal experience of course.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:21 AM

One of the more telling things concerning religion and violence recently was the incident in Leytonstone station in which a "Muslim" attacked another passenger and a fellow Muslim shouted to him "You ain't no Muslim, bruv." Defending religion isn't one of my strong points, but most of the harm done in the name of religion in this world is not done by true followers of religious tenets. Those IS thugs who mass-murder civilians and turn young girls into their sex slaves ain't no Muslims either, bruv. Those slaughtering Crusaders weren't no Christians either, bruv.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM

Sadly Lanfrancs post is all too indicative of a large section of our society.

If asked they would claim they are not racist / bigoted / nationalist although they may admit to being boring old farts.

However there is an inherent racism, bigotry and nationalism in what is written.

Until such time as these "values" disappear for good we will always have tensions between different sections of society.

Those of us who are older have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren to ensure that these views are seen for what they are and that they are challenged whenever they are voiced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:25 AM

To hurriedly correct meself, the bystander who shouted at the attacker wasn't actually a Muslim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 12:28 PM

But I'm pretty sure that most of our Muslim fellow citizens would agree with it.

I'd see it as a matter for Muslims to work out for themselves how to reconcile some bits of the Quran with compassion and humanity, the same way as I'd say the same for Christians and Jews with regard to some bits of the Old Testament.   But in both cases most believers seem to have managed to do so perfectly well. What matters for all of us is what sort of people we are.

But one can of worms at a time please. This thread is about nations, not religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 12:34 PM

Well, Steve, hypocritical clowns like Mark Burns, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Richard Land, Paula White, Robert Jeffress, Ralph Reed & all the rest and their congregations supporting Trump ain't no Christians either, bruv. But there sure are a lot of 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 01:48 PM

I hope you poor deluded politically correct numbskulls who choose not to believe the evidence of your own eyes prove to be right and this old bigot wrong. Don't bank on it!

Even Trevor Phillips, who has been credited with inventing the term "islamophobia" has seen the pitfalls ahead, and he is not an old white bigot.

Wake up and smell the kaffir.

When someone you know or care for is murdered or worse mutilated in a jihadi attack (as supported by 20% of British Muslims), perhaps you will feel differently. Neither nationalism nor multiculturalism will help then.

I shall return to the music threads whence I came - albeit not on a flying donkey. Well done weasels.

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 03:39 PM

"The young don't care about multiculturalism because they live it".

I suspect Stu that you don't really know the meaning of "multiculturalism", why the policy was instigated, or why it is not working anywhere in the UK.

It is a failed experiment from the sixties, which inhibits integration of different cultures into a homogeneous society. It was thought up by some brilliant "liberal" minds to attempt to address the malign effects of mass unregulated immigration.....without success!

Huge parts of our major cities have become no go ares


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:06 PM

When some of you old farts are dead and gone then some of these problems will just go away.

My children live in an multicultural world, they enjoy the cultural exchange and foods they encounter on a daily basis. Multicultural doesn't mean "colorblind," it means they see and appreciate the differences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM

That 20% figure came from a Sun story distorting the results of a poll asking if people felt some sympathy with young people going off to fight in Syria.

The problem is, that didn't distinguish between those who might have taken "sympathy with" as meaning they agreed with those young people, and those who might have taken it to mean having some pity for them. And it didn't even distinguish between whether question referred just who might have gone to Syria to fight for Isis or also to those who have gone to fight against it.

Don't we all feel a degree of pity for young people who do things like that with their lives?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 04:36 PM

I have just described multiculturalism at its best - Amongst the young and those free from preconceptions. It works fine for them. It can work for everyone. I have also described the evidence of my own eyes from Bradford on a Friday night. Or any night if it comes to that. And there are no 'no go' areas there or any of the other big cities I have visited. And there are too many of those to list here. The chances of someone I know or love getting murdered by a right wing Christian lunatic seem to be around as high as one getting murdered by a Jihadist. All the points I have just made are properly evidenced arguments against the sound bites fed to people by those who want to stir up hate. Would anyone care to back up their assertions with similar hard evidence?

But as Kevin says this is about nationalism, not religion so I shall not be drawn any further on that subject here. If anyone wants to start an anti-Islam thread feel free and I shall make the same points on there.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM

I'm not incredibly comfortable with the word "multicultural." It seems to imply cultures existing alongside each other in an atmosphere of tolerance. I'd much rather think of cultures feeding like mad off each other and revelling in the joy that comes from that. It's just a word, of course. What actually happens on the ground is what matters. But I don't think it's a helpful word in some regards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM

At this point I step in with a link to a delightful feel good video..
that explores the positive overlap where identity draws on the best of patriotism and nationalism..

..yes punkfolkrocker did use the decidedly unpunkrock word 'delightful'...

The Welsh Italians

"Episode 1 of 2

Merthyr-born Michela Chiappa explores the modern Welsh Italian community, visiting the cafes and fish and chip shops that still serve up a feast.
She discovers that whilst some traditions are the same, others have really changed. Michela finds that it's food and family that unites the two cultures
- but when it comes to sport, do they support Wales or Italy?"

After watching it, my mrs feels envious and wishes she was welsh italian instead of just welsh...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:43 PM

Nothing like food to unite cultures. I ring my old mum every night and she always wants to know what we've had for tea. We probably have English just a couple of nights a week. Eggs, chips and beans or a roast. We'll have Italian three nights (tricolore salad with garlic bread tonight) and something like Spanish or Mexican or Greek the other nights. A curry once in a while. We LOVE it! She gets distressed that an Englishman can be such a traitor, but she has recently expressed a vague interest in trying an avocado...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:28 PM

"It is a failed experiment from the sixties,"
There you go with your hatred Ake
It did not "fail", in fact Britain benefited enormously from multiculturalism - children especially, who seem to have shaken off the blinkered Xenophobia our generation inherited from the Empire.
People like yo have made the lives of people who now form a large part of the population who have now become British, miserable and dangerous - so much so that it has become necessary to introduce laws to put a curb on your hate incitement.
Of course it has "failed" for people like you
Every can of petrol poured through an immigrant's letterbox has been encouraged by someone like you - many came here to escape persecution, only to be greeted by people like you..
More links for you to ignore
ECONOMIC
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:30 PM

BREXIT VIOLENCE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 06:53 AM

"It's quite interesting how the Scot nats distance themselves from the Brit nats. Scottish nationalism has (at least in the mind of it's supporters) elevated itself to a level of political sophistication and is possessed of a far more noble spirit of civic inclusivity than could ever be south of the border."

Sorry got to comment on that too. When I said British nationalism I was not condemning it - merely pointing out that it is another form of nationalism. They've just tied their idea of the nation to that represented by the union flag whereas Scots Nats have tied it to their idea of the nation to that represented by the Saltire. Some view themselves as Scottish who just happen to currently be within a wider union whilst others see themselves as Brits who just happen to be Scottish. Some see their nationality as Scottish some as British. Some see it as equally both. Neither is superior to the other and neither is bad.

If someone is asking me now though is the type if nationalism displayed by the bulk of the Yes movement and the Scottish gvt the same negative nationalism as displayed by the likes of the BNP or Siol nan Gaidheal then of course I would say no. As already shown by the inclusive welcoming speech already displayed further up the thread. They are clearly not the same and all I am saying is that you can't tar all nationalism with the same brush. The simple fact is that the rhetoric coming from the current Scottish gvt is far more inclusive and welcoming than the rhetoric that comes out of the BNP etc - or even in fact out of the Leave campaign or May's current gvt! That is a fact. No-one suggested that the English in general are incapable of being inclusive and welcoming!

As for the British Empire thing Stu I am sorry but I just don't get that point. The issues affecting us (whether we are Scottish or British nats) are about the here and now and what is best for the country in the future - not about the British empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:26 AM

It's nothing but crap.

Chinese people love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM

"are about the here and now and what is best for the country in the future"

I think that's quite wrong, I see 'the empire' frequently referred to on social media etc. There is a distinct feeling amongst some Scots Nats that they are shrugging off an age old oppressor and corruptor of their culture. In a sense this is true in that the south-east of England has a disproportionate influence over as Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland as well as the rest of England, but the idea that 'the English' were the sole protagonists in Empire and everyone else was roped is wrong. This is part of the attitude of superiority coming from north of the border.

"or even in fact out of the Leave campaign or May's current gvt"

Agree. I have as much influence over any of those goons as anyone in Scotland does. No-one speaks for me; I live in a safe tory seat and with the proposed gerrymandering it'll become totally unassailable.

I don't blame the Scots for wanting to leave (as we're now ruled by fuckwits and liars), but it still saddens me so much to see the ordinary working folk of the UK being divided by the drift to the right we are currently enduring. It spells the end of our collective bargaining power that, should we ever become a cohesive people again would be the only thing that will save us from the flag wavers, demagogues and populists that are becoming free to stamp on all of our rights.

I always great that the future would be one of coming together for the common good, but it appears all everyone wants to do is withdraw to their own patch of turf.


"I suspect Stu that you don't really know the meaning of "multiculturalism""

I suspect I certainly do; I live in a multicultural society and am all the better for it. You've been left behind old fella!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 05:23 PM

Acme.....in the few milliseconds that I have left (in real time), I am heartened to think that your children will have become "old farts" just like me.......some call it gaining wisdom, it usually comes through life experience.....but not always :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 06:11 PM

"old farts" just like me.......some call it gaining wisdom

Others, Ake, particularly pertaining to your situation, call it succumbing to dementia.


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