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BS: Brexit again
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Subject: BS: Brexit again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM We were told before the referendum that its result would be binding and it implementation immediate. Now we are told that it is illegal to do that, and the referendum was only "advisory" anyway. The establishment elite are determined to get their way regardless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:29 PM Gotta love all this belligerent militant pro brexit tory rhetoric founded on "The people have spoken"... ...But If the shoe was on the other foot and they'd lost by the same slender percentage vote margin....???? Somehow I suspect they would not have been such good losers, quietly & respectfully accepting 'the will of the people'..... David Davis.. what a tosser... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Greg F. Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM Professor, what you were told was bullshit- if you chose to believe it, that is YOUR problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: DMcG Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM No, we were told long beforehand that the referendum was advisory. And we were also told many times by the Leave promoters that "the day after the vote nothing will change" because the all the rules and agreements would remain in place until they we renogotiated. But worry not, Keith, it will go through in some form compatible with the vote. Just probably not how you - or anyone else - imagined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 01:18 PM I second that. I knew for months beforehand that the referendum was only advisory. And, apart from what the judges said, I don't know how May can claim an unconditional mandate predicated on such a tight result in which she has the explicit backing of just over one-third of the electorate, not to speak of the extremely unsatisfactory campaign that yielded that result. The judges were at great pains to separate political from constitutional considerations in their judgement, yet they have been vilified. The Daily Mail called them "enemies of the people." The only people who can't recognise that the judges were trying to protect parliamentary sovereignty are the self-same brexiteers who were bleating a little while ago,about how the EU undermines our sovereignty and how we need to "take back control." Good to see them getting their knickers in a twist. Makes a nice change from all that crowing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Raedwulf Date: 04 Nov 16 - 02:17 PM With all due respect, Keith, you're a bloody idiot. Sorry, but... It was said repeatedly BEFORE the Ref that it was NOT LEGALLY BINDING. It really was just a glorified opinion poll. Hard luck if you didn't realise, but it absolutely is NOT the case that "Now we are told..." I knew before the Ref took place that it was NLB, so why didn't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 02:48 PM I'm afraid that hat Keith is not the most truthful person you've ever encountered, Raedwulf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 02:49 PM Keith is no hat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Raedwulf Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:07 PM I've actually been here rather longer than you, Steve. If not so prolifically! ;-) I know Keith for what he is. Sincere, but never in possession of all the facts. Mostly because he is one of those who ignore those that are inconvenient to his point of view... And yes, Keith, I realise you won't like that comment. But, if you remember my name, when have I ever been less than honest in the years I've been here? I've sided with you occasionally. I've been against you occasionally. What you too often don't do is produce a decent, well-researched, well-thought out argument, alas... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:17 PM And he's not very good at taking off his blinkers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Mr Red Date: 04 Nov 16 - 06:14 PM Consider. The SNP probably relish the thought of having Labour by the s&c. And there avowed aim is? That's the problem with referenda - they beget referenda. Half the country would welcome another EU one and fear a Scottish one. France became almost ungovernable with a spate of them. And now look at what we face. Analogous shenanigans over the pond, with the same kind of rhetoric. We have become too soft, we don't want wars and the downside of peace is the enemy within! It doesn't have to be so. But it is! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: bobad Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:00 PM A government acting against the will of the majority does so at it's own peril. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:24 PM Well we managed to abolish capital punishment in spite of 84% of the population being in favour of keeping it. We elect governments to be better experts then we are and to be brave enough to make unpopular decisions. David Cameron didn't seem to realise that, which is why we're in this bloody mess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Donuel Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:31 PM I now see how little information or future plans were available from the government. The populace was left high and dry. government Everyone including the government seems to be making it up as they go along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Greg F. Date: 04 Nov 16 - 07:58 PM Say good night, Bubo. Thomas Paine you're not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Nov 16 - 08:01 PM "A government acting against the will of the majority does so at it's own peril.2 fair enough... the majority didn't vote for brexit.... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 08:17 PM I don't vote for governments that I think will support the will of the majority. I vote, hopefully, for governments that I think will be a damn sight more up to speed about economics, welfare, jobs, education, defence, filling potholes, emptying the bins, making clean water flow out of my taps, policing and foreign policy than I am, and that is the least likely to waste my money or wage useless wars. I will vote for the one that I feel will carry out those assignments the best. If they do a rotten job, I can vote to have them kicked out next time. Absolutely none of this applies to the referendum. The decision as to whether or not we should leave the EU was put in the hands of a public who, whilst not necessarily ignorant en masse, were not, on the whole, in any position to make a judgement on the crucial criteria. The campaign on both sides of the argument did nothing to put that right. By June 23, the electorate were in no better position to judge than they had been for months before. That is not democracy. That is a dereliction of democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:09 PM It was perfectly clear, and repeatedly stated that this referendum was advisory. I don't think it would be constitutionally possible in fact to have a binding referendum. And the only question asked on it was, should we leave the EU. Absolutely nothing about ending free movement or immigration. Even if it is treated as a done number that we should leave the EU, it would be perfectly possible to reach an arrangement in which current free movement was retained. That would in no way be out of line of the vote to leave the EU. That's what I'd like to see happen, and I'm pretty sure that if we had a referendum offering the chouce of EU exit with an end to free movement on the one. hand and EU exit with existing arrangements retained on the other, the latter would get more votes. It is no more undemocratic to ask for a second referendum after a relatively close result than it would be to call for a papid fresh general election in similar circumstances. The flaw in logic of those who sneer about "neverendums" is that, in a sense, the system of democracy under which we live is based on a series of neverendums, but we call them General Elections. It is absolutely selfevident that, if the vote in June had gone the other way, advocates of Brexit would have continued to fight for what they beieved in, and pushed as hard as they could for another referendum. They would have been perfectly entitled to do so, and it would have been absurd to suggest that that was an antidemocratic demand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:44 PM I agree with all that. But if we remoaners were to clamour for a second referendum, all we have is the time between now and the day that Article 50 is invoked. That alone makes the referendum skewed. We have a strict time limit, the brexiteers don't. That just can't be right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: akenaton Date: 05 Nov 16 - 03:39 AM Bobad, in this case it is not "the government" which is acting against the will of the people, but a sundry collection of self serving MPs and unelected peers. There does not appear to be any people of principle involved in this attempted coup.....just the usual suspects who do not have to deal with the consequences of a flawed economic policy; "free movement of labour" within the steeply sloping playing field of the EU. You think America has social problems, if the remoamers get their way the words of Mr Powell may yet come back to haunt us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Senoufou Date: 05 Nov 16 - 03:46 AM I'm sure I'm putting my head in the lion's mouth even trying to post on this thread. It's like a box of wasps (mixed metaphor). But here goes anyway (dons tin helmet):- What really annoys me about the Remainers is their assumption about us Brexiteers that we are:- thick racist ignorant ill-informed right-wing old-fashioned ancient UKIP supporters and so on and on and on. I only admit to one of those presumptions (being ancient) Ditto all my friends who voted as I did. Just because people have a different political stance to oneself is no need whatsoever to insult and deride them. But that seems to be the norm here on Mudcat nowadays... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: BobL Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:29 AM It's the usual problem I'm afraid, Eliza: the empty-barrel effect. Stories of rational people making sensible decisions don't sell newspapers, stories of the thick, racist etc minority acting unreasonably, however non-representative, do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: DMcG Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:03 AM But Steve's point, Sen, which I totally agree with, is that we were all uninformed, leavers and remainders alike. The subject is so complex it needs people to study it for years considering all the implications to have a chance. And that's one reason we employ politicians and government departments to take these decisions. None of us "lay people" have the time or resources to really understand it. Yes, you or I might make every effort to do so. It would not be enough to be truly informed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: DMcG Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:25 AM I agree, by the way, that assuming people are 'thick" is a charge too easily bandied about. I expect the degree of "thickness' is pretty much the same throughout the entire population so there were about as many "thick" remainders as leavers. My thickness test would be to see how many people asked themselves the "what if I am wrong" questions. If I am a Remainer, for example, and believe the dire economic forecasts I need to ask myself if and why I would still vote remain if the forecasts turned out to be entirely wrong. Or if I was a leaver who was very concerned with immigration, I would need to ask myself if I would still vote leave if it turned out to be impossible to meaningfully restrict immigration. I doubt if many people on either side reflected very long challenging their own assumptions like that, though undoubtedly there are those who did in both camps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:49 AM To all those who claimed to know beforehand that the referendum was only advisory, how did you know this and why did none of you mention it when you were expecting to win? The government issued a booklet explaining why we should vote to remain. It said this, "The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK's economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk What I said in the OP was a factual and accurate description of what the people were told by their government about the referendum. Cameron even said that if we voted out, article 50 would be invoked the next day. Raedwulf, With all due respect, Keith, you're a bloody idiot. Sorry, but... It was said repeatedly BEFORE the Ref that it was NOT LEGALLY BINDING. By who? Reference please. I'm afraid that hat Keith is not the most truthful person you've ever encountered, Raedwulf. Please justify that nasty and personal smear. Sincere, but never in possession of all the facts. I have shown the facts that I am in possession of. Now show your "facts." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Stu Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:55 AM The language used by both sides is becoming increasingly unpleasant, and attitudes are hardening. Remainers are as tired of being told to "get over it" as if their voice is now unwelcome and we should all cow-tow to the sort of people organising Brexit, none of whom are very nice at all. There is some justification for younger voters to feel aggrevied, as they voted resoundingly to remain only to have their future pulled from under them by the over 50's, who voted to leave. Partly this is their fault for not turning out in numbers might have swung the vote to remain, but also these are people used to open borders and less parochial and nationalistic thinking. They are not hankering after the little Britain of a fallen empire, and they are the better for it. Either way, we're stuck with it and have to get on with the job of leaving. However, that shouldn't mean we abandon the rule of law or let proven liars speak for us at every turn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:00 AM I'm sorry, Keith, but you do not get to oblige us to demonstrate your ignorance. It's up to you to go back quietly to check the facts. The referendum was advisory and not "legally binding." The deficit in your knowledge is your problem, not ours. You're chewing away at this to try to save your dignity. Your modus operandi, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:06 AM Steve, I'm sorry, Keith, but you do not get to oblige us to demonstrate your ignorance. It's up to you to go back quietly to check the facts. I just did. I produced hard facts and now it is your turn. I quoted the booklet that the government delivered to every household in the country so that no-one could be in any doubt of the facts. "The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union." This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." Nothing about it only being advisory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:19 AM The MPs sat in the house are voted there democratically. It is their job to decide on the future of Britain in the EU. They abdicated that responsibility and asked the population what they thought in an undemocratic and very flawed referendum. That shambolic process saw the worst excesses of the press driving the people into a frenzy that culminated in the death of a young woman, MP and mother. What this court ruling has done is restore the status quo and will show those MPs that they need to take responsibility for their actions. In my opinion. And Eliza - I voted to remain but in the same way you are not thick, racist, ignorant etc. I am not unpatriotic, traitorous or an enemy of the people. We have all been treated shamefully by the government and its media. Or should that be the other way round..? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Iains Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM The problem with the referendum was that Parliament reigns supreme. The legislation should have been put in place, prior to the event, in order that the decision could be implemented without dispute. That this was not done suggests a deliberate cop out should the vote have gone for exit. We now have a situation where a high turnout of voters had a clear majority vote to leave. The judges, and politicians are clearly defying the will of the people. Where this will lead long term is anybodies guess. Parliament is in danger of losing it's mandate to rule. Letting the masses eat cake did not work in France, and there is no guarantee that endless soaps and cheap lager will work in Britain. Trying to split the vote as young against old is also a fallacious argument. The counter argument is that younger members of society had a highly debased education compared to earlier times. Education today consists of instilling lemming like behaviour so everyone is a willing little cypher and would never dream of questioning whatever the mainstream media throws at them. The ability to think and question is a distinct no-no in today's brave new world. I would also add that in its early days the european economic union was just that. Then it changed to the EU and a dash to federalism. That is what sticks in many peoples craw. Many of the EU institutions are a power for good- others are definitely not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: The Sandman Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:30 AM It appears to me that the referendum was not binding, because it was not explained to the electorate that it was advisory and that Parliament had the final decision. David Cameron should have explained that to the electorate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:32 AM The (in)famous booklet that 'gave us the facts' did not, in fact, give us the facts. The simple fact remains that this referendum was not legally binding and was never described by anyone as such. "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." is as close as you will get to it but even that statement is not legally binding. It is an empty promise. 'The Government' is a mixture of parties and any one single party cannot promise that it will implement anything. The recent court ruling has underlined that parliamentary principle and confirms that any such decision must be comprised of a majority vote in both houses. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:47 AM Very good article in The Week and there are no examples anywhere of anyone saying anything different. I love the last section - "The conventional wisdom is that, of course, a vote for Brexit would have to be respected," says the FT. However, the newspaper also points out that conventional wisdom predicted Jeremy Corbyn would not be Labour leader and Donald Trump would never become the presumptive Republican nominee for US president. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Senoufou Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM Dave, I would never accuse anyone of being 'unpatriotic, traitorous or an enemy of the people' merely because of the way they voted in a referendum. My sister felt very wary up in Scotland because of the vicious attitude of the Independence voters. In fact, windows were broken and abuse hurled in the street. She lives alone and said it was a bit like Kristallnacht in 1938. I concede that the whole remain/leave issue is complicated and open to many interpretations. But neither side should be adopting this ugly and potentially verbally abusive attitude towards the other. After all, if the Referendum was so complex, then both sides are equally guilty of 'voting in the dark'. But their points of view are thus logically equally valid/invalid (if under-informed) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:01 AM There was indeed, in England and Wales, a majority for leaving the European Union. There was no majority for leaving the single market, or taking away our right to move and work in other countries which remain in the EU. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM I was just redressing the balance, Eliza. Your post gives the impression that it is only the brexiteers that are getting flack. I know it is not what you meant but others may have got that idea. Hope it helps. D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:09 AM It's nothing to do with Bremainers trying to thwart the result of the advisory referendum, and everything to do with the Sovreignty of Parliament, the very root of our democracy, which the Brexiters loudly proclaimed they were voting for, and for which 10% of the male population of the nation died during the Civil War of 1642-1651. Please don't feel offended, Senoufou, you're the last person I'd wish to tick off (as I hope you know!) but, if the Brexiteers don't understand this, then the epithet 'thick' truly does apply to them, along with a four-letter word which refers to the female 'lady-bits'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:25 AM The legal position is that changes to domestic laws can't be made by prerogative - only by our sovereign parliament. Invoking article 50, which triggers brexit, means that EU laws may be ditched (some would definitely have to be). But EU laws are enshrined in our domestic laws, so, de facto, they are our laws. That's the deal we signed up to when we became an EU member. They can be replaced or repealed only by parliament, not by prerogative. That's what the judges decided. The only way May can get the decision overturned is by persuading the Supreme Court that invoking Article 50 is a separate matter from changing EU laws. The High Court judges decided that they go hand in hand. I'm biased, but I agree with them. Cameron was not entitled to make his pre-referendum promises about Article 50, etc. To carry them out by prerogative would be to override the rule of law. Dunno about you, but I don't want our governments to be able to do that. We've spent centuries in this country restricting the rights of kings and queens, etc., to rule by edict/diktat. That's the democracy that the brexiteers moaned about like mad that we'd sacrificed by joining the EU, remember? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:29 AM I'll say it again: a referendum in which the electorate was uninformed as to the issues at stake is completely undemocratic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: DMcG Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:51 AM After all, if the Referendum was so complex, then both sides are equally guilty of 'voting in the dark'. But their points of view are thus logically equally valid/invalid (if under-informed) Not really, Elisa. True, neither side could actually say what would happen. But in all probability a vote to remain was a vote for "more of the same, for good or ill" whereas a vote to leave was a vote for something different, although we know not what. I don't think those two choices are equally "in the dark". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Nov 16 - 08:18 AM Wonderful song by a couple of people you may know. Based on a Mudcat conversation so I believe. Very pertinent today Traitor's Love Enjoy DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Raedwulf Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM Keith - no. Not playing that stupid game, not least because you're a cheat. You are well known on this forum. Amongst other things, you are well known for ignoring facts that you don't like, and for arguing the toss over tiny irrelevancies (when they are things that you feel you can safely argue the toss over). You are a bad debater, pure & simple, and many long-term Catters know you for what you are. So why should I waste my time looking for links? I knew that the Ref was NLB before it happened. Steve knew. Kevin knew. As Steve so accurately says, the fact that YOU did not is YOUR problem. Not ours. I don't follow you in any way, but I have seen your name & your comments in many threads. I cannot recall ever seeing you admit that you were wrong, or even just misinformed. So why should I bother to produce "facts"? A fact, to you, seems to be defined as "I agree with this". Sometimes you are right. Sometimes you are wrong. Sometimes the facts you produce genuinely are facts (Hint: a referendum pamphlet is not a legally binding document, and the fact that you try to present it as such is ample proof of what an utterly rotten debater you are). Often, you have your head shoved up for fundament. This is one of those times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Stanron Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:34 AM Iains wrote: Parliament reigns supremeI love all this stuff about 'Parliament reigns supreme'. Parliament won't rule supreme until we have left the EU. In one of the treaties, was it the treaty of Rome?, Parliament voted to be subject to European law (and didn't bother to inform it's electorate at the time). Even when we activate article 50 it will still be subject to EU law and will continue to be so for however long it takes to complete the exit negotiations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Raedwulf Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:43 AM Steve - "04 Nov 16 - 08:17 PM" Absolutely on the nail. Not bad for Yorkshire! ;-) Senoufou - "What really annoys me about the So, if your object is to complain about being painted with a broad brush... why paint with a broad brush, hmmm? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:59 AM We are not "subject to EU law" as though the EU is some malign foreign force that dictates to us. EU laws are our laws. Overwhelmingly, we agree with the laws made collectively in the EU by representatives of the member states, including ours. That is the way it is, whether you agree with all of it, some of it or none of it. When I say that EU laws are our laws, I say do advisedly. They are enshrined in our body of domestic laws, exactly as if they were laws made exclusively within the UK. That is the EU deal and that is where we are, like it or not. If you want to make a new law or repeal a law in this country, it has to be done through our parliament. There is no scope for prerogative. Leaving the EU inevitably involves repealing laws and making new laws. That will be triggered by Article 50 and that's why the judges came to the decision they did. Everything else is opinion, and expression of frustration is just bluster. If you think the judges were wrong, in effect you are attacking the sovereignty of parliament because you want to see it bypassed. You want Cameron's empty pre-referendum promises to trump the rule of law. That's a bit ironic when you consider that your fellow brexiteers have been braying for years about getting back our sovereignty, "taking back control," getting rid of the EU democratic deficit, etc., n'est-ce pas? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:04 AM yeah.. taking back control and immediately handing it to a tory dictator... !!! 😫 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Greg F. Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:06 AM Could be worse - could be Trump! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Greg F. Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM Well, Steve, I know I'm just an ignorant Yank, but your Remainders folk of the Stanron ilk are starting to remind me of anti-government ranters like Ammon Bundy and/or the group in Texas that is wittering on about nullification and seccession from the U.S. as if the Civil War had never taken place. But at least on your side of the pond they're not armed to the teeth like the Georgia "militia" discussed elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM but we are armed to the teeth.. we got conkers, water pistols, pea shooters, catapults, wet towels, shitty sticks... Some of the hardcore brexit thugs might even resort to cricket bats..... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM Raedwulf, I can only assume that you mistakenly assigned me to Yorkshire because I referred to not wasting money... |
