BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:36 AM

"antidisestablishmentarianistically..."
longest word in the English language, a schoolteacher once told us, but she declined to define it.
"and i suspect we are talking an RC priest!"
I am
I always associated it with sa separation of the state and the church - this is the definition I have
noun
1. opposition to the withdrawal of state support or recognition from an established church, especially the Anglican Church in 19th-century England.
I specifies the English Church but I believe it to be applicable and very relevant to Ireland, given recent and ongoing shenanigans
The church is rapidly changing here - just read a wonderful novel by one of Britain's great writers, where a Vatican Conclave inadvertently appoints a gay Pope - can't wait for the reaction - here locally and maybe from our serial whatsit on Mudcat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:00 AM

But arguably it isn't, since it refers to CofE and the monarch, and i suspect we are talking an RC priest! Close, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 10:18 AM

I bet you've wanted to be able to use that word in context for decades!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 08:53 AM

Wouldn't mind betting that one or two people on this forum, having read your post, Jim, are now thinking antidisestablishmentarianistically...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 08:44 AM

Even Trump has ACCEPTED that the Russians hacked into the U.S. election - his argument is that it didn't make any difference to the result - he would say that, wouldn't he?
It remains to be seen if the accusations that Trump was being blackmailed over perverted sexual activities
I can recall public figures losing their jobs due to their sexual activities, but I can't recall any being allowed to take office after having been found out.
"False news" nad now been preceded by "Alternative Truth" - the American establishment have always had an imaginative way with words - "friendly fire", "collateral damage" and "rendition" being prime examples
I was told this morning that our local parish priest has given Trump his blessing from the pulpit because he is against "Pro- choice" for women
Apparently Father Whatsit is happy that women are regarded as "pussy fodder"
Another great argument for disestablishmentarianism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 08:05 AM

Glad to see that the Supreme court have ruled that parliament must approve the triggering of article 50. I have no doubt that it will be done but at least it will now be done properly!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:24 PM

There is a world of difference between censorship of news and ensuring that the reported news is fair and honest. I have no knowledge of the events as I gave up on most newspapers many years ago but, if what DMcG says is true then that is a prime example of dishonestly reporting events. Rags like the Daily Heil and the Stun sail very close to the wind with things like this. They know that people will only read the headlines and go for the soundbites beneath. They get away with these dishonest tactics because, if taken to task, they will point out that the full story was reported in microprint on page 17 of the same paper, sandwiched between Strictly and X-Factor. It is this type of thing that is so frustrating and results in the 'dumbing down' of such serious issues as the EU to the level of the previously mentioned TV shows.

To be honest, I cannot blame the newspapers entirely. It is almost as if a huge chunk of the population has given up thinking for itself and relies on being told what to think by the media. They are fed a diet of 'reality' shows and get involved to such an extent that they can be told anything as long as it comes from the mouth of a celebrity. The government loves this, and I include the previous Labour administration, as it results in a simple method to control the views of the population. They have even begun to elevate some of their number to celebrity level as well, Probably starting with Tony Blair and culminating in Ed Balls prancing round the dance floor. Goebbels would have loved it if he could have achieved the same so effectively!

So, there you have it. The Gospel according to Dave the Gnome. Simon Cowell is to blame for everything...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 07:32 AM

it is arguable whether censorship - by which I mean deliberate suppression of a truth, whether by a government or say Murdoch - is worse than getting people into a frame of mind where they neither know nor care whether a story is true, but it is, I think, outside the scope of this thread unless we are talking specific Brexit examples.

But there is one form of censorship I am very much in favour of: never share a Facebook post or newspaper link unless you are personally prepared to defend its accuracy. Any of us may receive fake news but if we pass it on, we are responsible for it, not the originator.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

DMcG
The big danger is that when the propaganda ceases to have the required impact then censorship lies around the corner. Since the American Election went so spectacularly wrong we are seeing these conversations about false news, mainly presented by the most guilty.
We are on a slippery slope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

This phone keeps changing aggravation into aggregation. (It has been a fight this time as well) Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:36 AM

"I don't think many would go to the aggregation of checking Hansard."


True enough, unfortunately. That's how fake news works. I suspect, for example, Ben would not have appeared in this thread with our little diversion into how to hack sheets of paper if the Daily Mail's claim Bradshaw said anything about Brexit in that speech had been questioned.

As for confirming all media sources are distorted: of course. Get any two people to watch any event and give their interpretations and there will be differences, and in some court cases freedom or imprisonment rests on that difference. Media is the same: each has their own way of looking at events.

Which is why critically thinking about everything you read is (a) vital (b) damned hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:19 AM

DMcg.
Thanks for confirming that the Mainstream media distorts news. I think it unlikely many would go to the aggravation of referring to Hansard.

"it does not do to over-inflate what the papers reported which was already over inflated from what he said"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:13 AM

Certainly select your own. But whoever we choose for our sources needs checking. I didn't quote any newspaper account, though. It was all my own feeble work.

What Ben said was we underestimate the extent to which Russia is involved in cyber warfare. My mention of "Facebook etc" was my interpretation of part of what he was referring to. There's other kinds as well, but it does not need cyber hacking of paper counts.   Nor was there any mention of the EU or Brexit: that was a typical Daily Mail fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:48 AM

DMcg.

It is true that there is a lot of fake news about. But the problem is that much of it is spread by the mainstream media, and what is selected is carefully massaged before presentation. As an example do you really think there is much difference between events in Kabul and evenst in Aleppo? Yet there is a considerable difference in coverage.
If you wish to censor all news sources, who is to decide what is right and what is wrong? For myself I prefer to do my own sifting thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:35 AM

By the way, the relevant speeches are now accessible on the Hansard pages, which are the formal record of the speeches made. Let's discuss how we understand those rather than how the Daily Mail does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 03:10 AM

I think Ben got a bit carried away but it does not do to over-inflate what the papers reported which was already over inflated from what he said. There is a massive difference between influencing a result and fixing it. Of course cyber hacking to fix a paper count is daft. But he didn't claim it. He was talking about fake news articles on Facebook etc and how they could influence things. Of course the vast majority of fake news was generated by the campaigns themselves but there was also some articles by enthusiastic citizens on both sides on Facebook, some accurate, some wildly inaccurate. That Russia produced any of these for Brexit is a suggestion too far without evidence, in my opinion. But that fake news is a problem and that many people including Russia produce it is, I think, accurate enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:38 AM

Labour MP Ben Bradshaw I take it is an example of those "better informed" and "better qualified" people who should decide the fate of a nation - according to Steve Shaw and the "usual suspects".

Russian hackers fixing the result of the recent EU Referendum in the UK - begs the obvious question: How on earth can a cyber attack influence a ballot that relied exclusively on paper votes?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:41 PM

From the daily wail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4029342/Russian-hackers-probably-fixed-EU-referendum-vote-Brexit-says-Remoaner-MP-Ben-Br

According to a Labour MP those pesky ruskies soured the brexit vote.
Not a scrap of evidence of course, but I suppose it gives a good soundbite and the usual crowd will jump in to castigate the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:25 PM

One of my old work colleagues use to say "Laugh? I nearly got the cigs out"

Never understood it...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:16 PM

My God, call an ambulance somebody. Why, I seem to have not only split my corset laughing at that joke but my ribcage has ruptured as well. What shall I do?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:14 AM

Heard this today             What will be different about Christmas dinner after Brexit ?          No Brussels !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 04:51 PM

"As an SNP member, I can reliably inform the membership that Scotland will not be leaving the UK any time soon."

As a Labour Party member, I can reliably inform the membership that Corbyn is the new Messiah and that I am the Queen of Sheba.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 12:38 PM

"Do you really think Sturgeon did not know that?"
I know it makes shit of your claim that "the party hierarchy have settled..."
You don't know what Strugeon knew any more than I do, so stop pretending you do.
What she does know is that Brexit is proving a disaster for the Scottish economy as it is for England and Ireland (both sides of the border) and we haven't started to feel the pinch yet
Brexit tops economic threat list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:52 AM

Do you really think Sturgeon did not know that?

It's all window dressing, Scotland does not want to remain in Europe, the remain vote was linked to the support for independence.
As that independence vote wanes so will support for Europe.
The SNP made a huge mistake in tying themselves to support for the EU, the organisation is doomed.
We need complete independence and free trade, but unfortunately our politicians are running true to form and settling into their comfort zone in Hollyrood.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 10:08 AM

"The Party hierarchy have settled in."
Somewhat misleading doncha think?
"NICOLA Sturgeon's hopes of a separate Brexit deal for Scotland appear to have been dealt yet another blow - after the European Commission confirmed it would not be negotiating with Holyrood."
(two days ago)
The Scottish leaders have recognised that brexit will be a disaster for their country and have been blocked from doing something about it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:06 AM

As an SNP member, I can reliably inform the membership that Scotland will not be leaving the UK any time soon. The Party hierarchy have settled in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:35 PM

"We must stop this stupid squabbling, we have a common enemy these days."
You have declared your support for Trump - you are part of the common enemy
"Keith and Teribus "
The only enemy this air of comedians have is themselves - they appear to be hooked on self-humiliation
Whoops - that should read "the greatest" - the both have plenty of enemies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:24 PM

I thought I posted about Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU? Maybe I dreamt it or maybe someone didn't like what I said? Ah well.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:17 PM

Thanks Akenaton

"Keith and Teribus are now more of a danger to this corrupt system than Jim has ever been"

Isn't it wonderful the things you can achieve with selective cut and pastes !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:49 PM

Are you trying to make me die laughing?

Crying, more like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:43 AM

GSS, thanks but that is not the post that no-one understood.
It was this one,

08 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM

MPs voted 461 to 89 to invoke article 50 before April.
Since when can you vote on something a couple of months before it was voted on?
More ****** nonsense - almost as stupid as honest politicians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:28 AM

"THE PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!"
Quite right Stu - what have they ever done for Britain?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 10:39 AM

"we have a common enemy these days."

THE PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:04 AM

"People like Jim are not revolutionaries."
Can you please stop resurrecting long-lost battles
You are an extremist right winger, a homophobe, a supporter of forcing asylum seekers to wear identification tags, someone who suggested that mass murderer Breivik had something to say worth listening to and a supporter of America's first fascist President to the extent that you are now defending the part that Russia has been discovered to have played in getting him elected.....
I am hardly going to worry too much about how you describe my politics.
You have recently exposed of serially lying about what you have said and what you haven't - your latest effort appears to be an attempt to take revenge for my having exposed you
Leave it out Ake - you really are not very good at this and your past record says everything about what your politics are.
Let's talk about Brexit - not us eh?
It has recently been reported that Britain might lose 60% of its trade when Brexit is ACTIVATED , about half of what it is likely to be able to win back elsewhere.
How about chewing on them Little Englander apples?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 03:49 AM

I am wondering who will be the first to claim, if the judges rule only Parliament can authorise the government to invoke Article 50 that the vote that is just been held is such authorisation. I raise the point now because all parties currently agree it is not sufficient authorisation, and I wouldn't want anyone claiming nobody said so before it came to the crunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 03:31 AM

...of course it will give us (then) retired folk an excellent opportunity to buy cheap property up in Scotland and live there with our European neighbours while we rent out our English properties at inflated rents to disenfranchised Scotsmen who want to live in a country that will not allow immigrants to help man the failing health service :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 03:22 AM

Of course the funniest thing of the lot will be when the UK leave the EU, as they invariably will, Scotland will hold another referendum on independence and leave the UK to join the EU. Oh, how we will laugh and tell the Scotexiteers thet the job's done, that is democracy in action and they just need to stop moaning :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 06:05 PM

Are you trying to make me die laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 05:54 PM

Jim is still fighting the battles that I fought in my teens and twenties, times have changed. Keith and Teribus are now more of a danger to this corrupt system than Jim has ever been, they understand political realities, the dangers of huge global federations, the worth of independent mind and traditional values.

We must stop this stupid squabbling, we have a common enemy these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 05:37 PM

OK Good Soldier, we know it's a game, but it's the only game in town at the moment and the game has rules.
Take away the rules and we get chaos, especially if are totally unprepared politically to install something better.

People like Jim are not revolutionaries...they are not even "evolutionaries".....they are tacit supporters of the establishment and the status quo. They have a niche in this system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 03:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:06 AM

We have never had a government that has ever felt obliged to adhere to the wishes of the people who elected it - not in my lifetime and certainly not before
Jim Carroll
I understand it quite clearly, Jim means that governments do not represent the wishes of the majority of the people , governments represent a tiny minority who are very wealthy, those very wealthy people have power through their wealth to subvert democracy. Keith , you may not agree with that, but IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT THIS IS WHAT HE MEANS

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 12:22 PM

Steve,

Just knock it off, Keith. You're proving everything I'm saying about you. Sad bugger.

Huh. I just asked for clarification because no-one understood Jim's post.
Do you?
Do you not want to know what Jim meant?
Do you not care what he says?

Why the personal abuse against me Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 11:09 AM

You lot are surely not still remoaning.....the job's done as they say in racing circles. :0)

Mrs May will invoke article 50, tell parliament a few details then get on with it.

the one thing that is certain is that "freedom of movement" will be stopped, that will lead to exit from the single market, that will lead to a free trading nation with control of its borders, its laws and its trade.    Hoorah!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:06 AM

We have never had a government that has ever felt obliged to adhere to the wishes of the people who elected it - not in my lifetime and certainly not before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:01 AM

Jim's comments are quite clear if you know about the proposed water charges in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 06:33 AM

Sorry Keith A, no idea what he is on about. I am still trying to work this one of his out from the "best type of Government" thread:

"water taxes, which had been greeted with huge nation protests (totally unprecedented in Ireland) are being debated a year later (so far they have only been watered down (pun intended) and it is hopeful that they have been abandoned altogether and those (about 70who have paid them 61 per cent end of the third billing cycle, 55 per cent at the end of the second cycle and 44 per cent at the end of the first billing cycle), will be recompensed – people-power
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 05:09 AM

Just knock it off, Keith. You're proving everything I'm saying about you. Sad bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 04:51 AM

Apparently not.
Please clarify Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 06:40 AM

Does anyone know what Jim meant?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 01:15 PM

Huh?