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BS: Our Apology

Bev and Jerry 10 Nov 16 - 12:44 AM
Gurney 10 Nov 16 - 01:06 AM
Teribus 10 Nov 16 - 02:40 AM
Amos 10 Nov 16 - 02:46 AM
Mr Red 10 Nov 16 - 02:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 16 - 03:09 AM
Mr Red 10 Nov 16 - 03:12 AM
Iains 10 Nov 16 - 03:16 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM
akenaton 10 Nov 16 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 16 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM
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Steve Shaw 10 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM
Stu 10 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM
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Mrrzy 10 Nov 16 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM
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Donuel 10 Nov 16 - 08:31 AM
Stilly River Sage 10 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM
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bobad 10 Nov 16 - 09:57 AM
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Jim Carroll 10 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM
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Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 16 - 03:38 AM
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akenaton 13 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM
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Will Fly 13 Nov 16 - 10:22 AM
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akenaton 18 Nov 16 - 07:41 AM
akenaton 18 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM
Greg F. 18 Nov 16 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM
akenaton 18 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM
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akenaton 21 Nov 16 - 02:58 AM
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akenaton 21 Nov 16 - 07:14 AM
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Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 16 - 03:31 PM
Donuel 21 Nov 16 - 04:27 PM
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DMcG 23 Nov 16 - 01:53 AM
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Stu 23 Nov 16 - 03:20 AM
Mr Red 23 Nov 16 - 05:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 16 - 05:29 AM
gillymor 23 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM
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Donuel 23 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM
akenaton 23 Nov 16 - 12:42 PM
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Jim Carroll 23 Nov 16 - 12:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 16 - 01:21 PM
gillymor 23 Nov 16 - 02:31 PM
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Jim Carroll 24 Nov 16 - 04:23 AM
gillymor 24 Nov 16 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM
Stu 24 Nov 16 - 08:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 16 - 09:10 AM
Stu 24 Nov 16 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM
Greg F. 24 Nov 16 - 10:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 16 - 11:59 AM
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akenaton 24 Nov 16 - 04:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 16 - 05:06 PM
Greg F. 24 Nov 16 - 05:44 PM
Joe Offer 24 Nov 16 - 05:50 PM
Greg F. 24 Nov 16 - 06:07 PM
Greg F. 24 Nov 16 - 06:08 PM
akenaton 24 Nov 16 - 06:59 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 16 - 07:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 16 - 08:18 PM
Joe Offer 24 Nov 16 - 09:05 PM
akenaton 25 Nov 16 - 02:53 AM
Stu 25 Nov 16 - 02:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 16 - 03:02 AM
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akenaton 25 Nov 16 - 08:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 16 - 09:12 AM
Greg F. 25 Nov 16 - 10:11 AM
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gillymor 25 Nov 16 - 10:13 AM
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Jim Carroll 25 Nov 16 - 12:48 PM
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Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Nov 16 - 06:18 PM
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Jim Carroll 26 Nov 16 - 08:06 AM
akenaton 26 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM
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Greg F. 26 Nov 16 - 09:36 AM
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robomatic 26 Nov 16 - 11:25 PM
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Subject: BS: Our Apology
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 12:44 AM

To all of our friends living outside of America;

Please accept our most heartfelt apology for what the people of America have done. Words cannot express our remorse.

Throughout our entire adult lives, we sincerely believed that interpersonal relations in this country were improving. Often times, progress was slow and, at times, we fell back but, on the whole, social justice was winning in America.

But, in 2008, Barack Obama was elected president and the deep-seated hatred for the "other" began to surface. Gradually, more and more intolerance began to be expressed against people of other races, religions, national origins and sexual preference. As the drumbeat of bigotry increased in intensity, Donald Trump saw his opportunity and now we have enshrined our mutual distrust and hatred of others in the highest office in the land.

As if this were not enough, we have unleashed this unstable and ill-equipped personality on the entire world. Our actions will have a profound effect on world trade, global warming, social justice and any progress towards world peace and cooperation for decades.

Once again, we deeply regret what our country has done and we humbly beg your forgiveness.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:06 AM

Speaking personally, folks, I accept your apology.

(OK, I've taken MY tongue out of my cheek.)

Remember the ancient Chinese curse.
'May you live in interesting times.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:40 AM

"As if this were not enough, we have unleashed this unstable and ill-equipped personality on the entire world."

Actually Bev and Jeri that remains to be seen and it is not the fault of the American people it is the fault of your political system - Hillary Clinton actually won more votes and any system that allows anybody to stand for election as head of state and chief executive is simply asking for trouble as any betting man will tell you - "Rank outsiders do occasionally win".

The campaigning and all the "in-fighting" and hype can now be done away with. Over the next three months your President-Elect and his "team" will be fully briefed on the realities and responsibilities facing the leadership of a great nation. In short they will be told what can and what cannot be done.

Hopefully he will be a one term President and the next four years will pass. As far as the prospects of future war go? I believe that the threat would have been greater with Hillary Clinton at the helm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:46 AM

He is, so far,an embarrassment in any humane view. But I can only hope, along with Teribus, that the burdens and constraints of the Executive Branch sober him up and cure him of his flaming hyperbolic rhetorical bent, and his penchant for impulsive irresponsibility.

It is a distinct possibility that the myopia which bankrupted so many of his enterprises will also drive the American economy into the ground. Let us pray not.

I concur with the spirit of B&J's apologies, and am prepared to stiffen my upper lip and march ahead as best I can see to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:51 AM

Well this takes the heat off the UK!

But seriously folks. We are living in interesting times. I repeat my assertion: the problem (a big proportion thereof) is Global Warming/Weirding. The weather has become unpredictable and extremes worse. To the point that you could loose everything tomorrow, even life.
So in that context, the imagined consequences of decisions seem less momentous by comparison. Add in a soupçon of the peace dividend and up pops the enemy within. And greasing the wheels is Farcebook, that well known "Gossip Column".

To the people of the USA, we forgive you, and could you forgive us - our resident buffoon Boris (mop-haired) Johnson has now to eat his words and probably a huge humble pie too and will have to meet your buffoon. But they are survivors against all expectations so they have a lot in common.

We are in no position to judge you, but judgementalism is the fashion now. Not in Rouge Towers though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:09 AM

From the postings of one of my daughters -

Dear America,
I know we've had our differences. You said some things, I said some things, you spilled my tea, I set fire to your White House.. you know, little quibbles like that.

But things seem pretty rough for you right now and I just want you to know that you're welcome to come back home for a bit. You can sleep on the sofa! I'm your parent and I still love you.

Love, the United Kingdom.
PS: just had a rough break up with Europe so I hope you don't mind if things are a bit of a mess around here.


:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:12 AM

"Rank outsiders do occasionally win" rank in all senses?

Hopefully he will be a one term President er - could I mention Dubya?

threat would have been greater with Hillary Clinton (pun intended) but she is no loose cannon. Trump is a maverick, and predictions about them are often wide of the mark. A man of straw, just look at his head, what's left of it is sticking out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:16 AM

My take is that the Deplorables struck back with a vengeance. The little people have a vote and used it. WW3 is postponed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM

Don't worry about it too much folks - Britain has done similar by exiting Europe largely of a racist ticket of getting rid of immigrants and asylum seekers and "making Britain Great again" - the other side of the same coin.
I'm sure the U.S. Mexicans must know how the refugees fleeing from the poverty and warfare in the Third World must be feeling.
Britain has another Iron Lady (this time in velvet gloves} as Prime Minister to back up your..... can't think of a previous leader like Trump - sorry
I suspect that this isn't going to be the last disaster - the world possibly has Mm. Le Penn to cope with in France in the near future.... not to mention the other extremists waiting in the wings throughout Europe
"Happy Days are here again", it would seem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:41 AM

As I said on another thread, apologies aught to be directed to your new president elect.

I agree with most of the remarks above concerning the bigger dangers of another Clinton presidency.
I also agree that the US political system is corrupt and apologies should be issued to the American people and the world before it is dismantled and rebuilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:50 AM

"As I said on another thread, apologies aught to be directed to your new president elect."
Apologise to a hate filled, racist misogynist thug because he managed to buy himself into the White House you mean?
Jay-sus Ake - are you for real?
The election is summed up beautifully in my paper this morning- under the headline "The United Hates of America" it shows a photo of a woman carrying a banner saying "Make America hate again"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM

There's no need for any Mudcat yanks to apologise. I don't recall a single one of them hailing Trump. We started the ball rolling this end by showing that it was perfectly possible to make a catastrophic decision on the back of a pack of lies, impossible promises and a racist, xenophobic campaign. Without brexit to take heart from as a model, I doubt whether Trump would have managed this. It's we Brits who should be apologising, and, unlike you with Trump, we have three or four brainless eejits here on Mudcat who couldn't see what an unmitigated disaster they were advocating in brexit. A couple of them, true to form, are even defending the dangerous buffoon who is about to disgrace the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM

"I don't recall a single one of them hailing Trump."
Nope - they could safely rely on us to provide right-wing brain-deads like Ake to do that
Fascinating article in the Israeli article, Haaretz when the result was announced
Jim Carroll

Trump's Win, the Greatest Victory for anti-Semitism in America Since 1941
The Jew haters are celebrating. And Jews – from Jared Kushner to Sheldon Adelson –helped it happen.
Bradley Burston 10.11.2016 12:07 Updated: 12:08 PM
Screen grab of Donald Trump's tweet of an image of Hillary Clinton with the words "Most Corrupt Candidate Ever" on a Star of David-like form. July
Opinion Voting for Trump is a betrayal of Jewish history
Donald Trump shocks the world, elected 45th president of the United States
Shock and horror in Tel Aviv as Trump takes White House
Tuesday's election marked a stunning victory for Donald Trump. And, in the background, something else as well. The election marked the greatest victory and validation for anti-Semitism in America since 1941.
We all saw it coming, those who supported Trump and those who opposed him. We knew it early on. And we couldn't stop it. Because Trump's own people – in particular his closest and most senior Jewish advisors, among them his son-in-law Jared Kushner – let it fester and grow, unfettered, unopposed, unacknowledged. Free.
Read More: Trump's Win, the Greatest Victory for anti-Semitism in America Since 1941 (Bradley Burston) || I Still Love America. But, After Trump's Victory, I Don't Trust It (Peter Beinart) || As a Progressive, How Do I Tell My Children About Donald Trump? (Bradley Burston) || Fear Trumps Hope and Defies Logic (Anshel Pfeffer) || Where does Donald Trump stand on Israel? || Follow LIVE UPDATES here
To the direct benefit of anti-Semites and those who, like Trump, have coddled them and turned a blind eye to them and, in the end, leveraged them to their own advantage, the renaissance of Jew-hate in America has effectively split the Jewish community between an overwhelmingly liberal majority and the pro-Trump minority.
There are now just two kinds of Jews in America. And one of them voted for Trump.
How serious is the split? You can gauge it from the actions and reactions of Trump's senior advisor on relations with Israel, David Friedman, who, interviewed last month on Channel 2, was asked about an Anti-Defamation League Task Force study detailing an enormous and sudden rise in anti-Semitic online attacks on Jewish journalists and journalists believed to be Jews, whose reports were seen as anti-Trump.
"The spike in hate we've seen online this election cycle is extremely troubling and unlike anything we have seen in modern politics," ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt said at the time. "A half century ago, the KKK burned crosses. Today, extremists are burning up Twitter." An ADL statement said: "These aggressors are disproportionately likely to self-identify as Donald Trump supporters, conservatives, or part of the 'alt-right,' a loosely connected group of extremists, some of whom are white supremacists."
Friedman, was asked point blank about the study. Were there anti-Semites actively supporting Trump and harassing his opponents? His answer was a flat no.
Friedman, the president of American Friends of the Bet El settlement, went on to say that Greenblatt was entirely discredited because in the past, the ADL leader had supported the dovish but pro-Israel J Street organization.
He also accused Clinton supporters and advisors of anti-Semitism.
Within the Jewish right, however, Friedman has gone further. In June, he wrote the following in an article on Haaretz columnist Peter Beinart in the settler-based Arutz Sheva website:
"…[A]re J Street supporters really as bad as kapos? The answer, actually, is no. They are far worse than kapos – Jews who turned in their fellow Jews in the Nazi death camps. The kapos faced extraordinary cruelty and who knows what any of us would have done under those circumstances to save a loved one? But J Street? They are just smug advocates of Israel's destruction delivered from the comfort of their secure American sofas – it's hard to imagine anyone worse."
We saw it coming. We should have done more. The memes of Trump gassing Jewish journalists, the photo-shopped images of Jewish journalists interred at an Auschwitz-like "Camp Trump," the use of the term "kike-servative" to describe the many Republican Jews who opposed Trump's candidacy and pointed to the anti-Semitic connection.
We knew that the Trump campaign would do nothing to stop it. We knew it in April, when Jews responded loudly and clearly that Trump's adoption of the slogan "America First" bore offensive and frightening connotations.
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Before it became a winning slogan for Donald Trump, "America First" was a code. On the eve of the worst war the world has ever known, it was Nazi-sympathizer Charles Lindbergh's code for an America which put White Christian Americans of European ancestry before all else. And which pictured Jews – as Trump did just last week by implication – as enemies of America.
We should have done more. We should have known that Jewish organizations who are in the pocket of pro-Trump billionaire Sheldon Adelson, like the Zionist Organization of America – which charges leftists with anti-Semitism nearly daily – would do nothing about this. Jack all.
We should have done more. And now there is going to be more to do. Much more.
We should have been more active in countering the preposterous but widely spread lies about Hillary Clinton being anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.
Trump's kid-gloves coddling of anti-Semites and their vicious works have served him in good stead. Now the haters will be only too happy to return the favor by stepping up their attacks.
On Wednesday, the anniversary of Nazi Germany's murderous Kristallnacht pogroms which pre-figured the Holocaust, Trump's victory gave anti-Semites across America an additional reason to raise a glass in celebration.
Within minutes of the announcement of Trump's victory, former Klan leader David Duke - whom the ADL has called "perhaps America's most well-known racist and anti-Semite" - tweeted, "This is one of the most exciting nights of my life - make no mistake about it, our people have played a HUGE role in electing Trump!"
And we, all of us, the Jews, helped them get there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:36 AM

Brilliant article here. Well written and very believable. Even our resident detractors should not fail to understand it. Although they probably will...

One bit of good news for our US friends from it anyway - It is not your fault so ne need to apologise. Let us all just make sure we heed the lessons.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM

I suppose AIPAC and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby are worried because a loose cannon like Trump isn't in their pockets as yet and isn't as vulnerable as the more establishment politicos to being briefed against. They needn't worry. He hates Moooooslims even more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM

Great article, and I would say a fair few people being demonised in the UK and US at the moment have already recognised this situation and the danger it poses to us all; certainly during Brexit and the US campaign we could see the demagogues at work and their borderline fascist rhetoric and right-wing supporters. It's certainly no coincidence that both Farage and Trump are shills for Putin; it's amazing how people aren't bothered by it.

The problem is how the hell do we fight it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM

I Find the prospect of Clinton being elected pretty horrendous too, what an awful choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

As Timbaland sang in 2007, "It's too late to apologise...'


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:16 AM

The problem is how the hell do we fight it?

Beats me! As has been said elsewhere you can't cure stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:17 AM

I blame the electorate as much as the process. But I blame Clinton most for not accepting how totally hated she was, and not allowing Bernie a decent chance. He might not have won, anyway, apparently My Fellow Americans are really, really ugly. Well, half of them are. I am so ashamed, embarrassed, and disappointed, I cannot express myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

I think we fight it in the way suggested, Stu.

>i>we need to avoid getting lost in arguing through facts and logic, and counter the populist messages of passion and anger with our own similar messages. We need to understand and use social media. We need to harness a different fear. Fear of another World War nearly stopped World War 2, but didn't. We need to avoid our own echo chambers. Trump and Putin supporters don't read the Guardian, so writing there is just reassuring our friends. We need to find a way to bridge from our closed groups to other closed groups, try to cross the ever widening social divides.

I have made a start and am trying to cross bridges on Facebook by attempting to put certain fallacies to rest. It is an uphill struggle, as we see over and over again on here, but if enough people try we may may just make a difference.

Every time you see the soundbites of hate like 'Immigrants are to blame' or 'Muslims are terrorists', put the perfectly valid and opposing view in a polite but passionate way. 'Big business is to blame' and 'Terrorists are criminals' are equally pithy and just as valid.

Stop supporting media that support the hate messages. I cancelled my Sky subscription earlier this year. I fully intend to maintain my boycott of anything to do with the Murdoch empire and most of the other media and urge others to do the same.

Be a pain in the arse on here and elsewhere both on the internet and in real life. Not sure how we go about that. Oh, hang on...

Cheers

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM

Whoops - Sorry, can an elf please correct my faulty HTML flag at the beginning of the quote from the article please?

Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:31 AM

Bee I understand you sentiment however:

The American people did not promote income disparity, second class financial citizenship or collosal war blunders.

I see the American people as very separate fro the 15 GREED INSTITUTIONS.

Historically the conservative movement was the KKK and then the John Birch society.

Apologize for their existence but not for the entire American people who participate in the American experiment of Democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM

Hillary won the popular vote.

We have to fix that damned electoral college - it was put in place to protect the small states that owned slaves and wanted to protect their privilege to continue doing so.

In 2000, the same damned thing happened to Al Gore. Once again, just enough people voted for the spoiler in a couple of those "battleground" states that they tipped the result despite the popular results. Maybe we'll get smart this time and finally stop letting the same few states control the outcome (with their "winner take all" rules, instead of proportional representation).

Ake, you have nothing to gloat about. Hillary Clinton has been under fire for decades by the GOP and their cronies who had an inkling of where she was headed. And they have figured out that if you repeat a lie often enough, people do begin to believe it is the truth. Despite all of your protests of corruption, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT, you're reading the headlines on those magazines in the checkout line. Shame on you for believing that crap.

And for someone in another forum who quibbles about Mrs. Clinton and her relationship to Israel - Trump is welcoming Netanyahu even now, barely a full day after the election, and says he's going to scrap all of the negotiations with Iran. It went from a politician and a statesman who was going to be overseeing this to a loose canon. Let's see how that goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:35 AM

That a chilling article you linked to there, Dave.

Here,s another which I found through a link in that article which, written in May, was remarkably prescient. And not in any way more cheering. And very relevant also


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:10 AM

I would recommend Kevin's link to all. Heavy going at times but highly readable. Far too much to take in all in one go but a lot of things resonate and I am sure that everyone will spot things that appeal to them.

Thanks Kevin.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: bobad
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:57 AM

I suppose AIPAC and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby are worried because a loose cannon like Trump isn't in their pockets as yet.....

Why do you single this one out among the thousands of other lobbies petitioning for US aid.............oh, wait a second, we know why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

Because I was responding to Jim's 05.33 post, that's why. I know it was rather long, perhaps a bit too much for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

Declared 100 day intentions by Trump
Deport illegal Mexicans and build the wall
Abolish Obama's health reforms.
Renege on any previous agreements on climate change
Little wonder that decent Americans right across the country - New York, Washington - San Francisco - have taken to the streets claiming he does not speak for them them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:05 PM

The article to which "Dave the Gnome" posted a link makes our point extremely well.

While we were quite aware of the 4000 years or so of human history in which some groups hated other groups and, in many cases, acted on their hatred, we naively believed that we were seeing a positive change in human behavior, at least in the U. S. Now it has become abundantly clear that the signs of change were a thin veneer covering our real feelings.

Apparently, human nature is what it is and will continue to be this way for the foreseeable future.

Sadly,

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

One comedian said it very succinctly (paraphrased):

Americans shouldn't feel so bad. In the last few years, countries all over the world have been electing ridiculous leaders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:55 PM

That's right, Joe - make jokes about it. And keep that head stuck in the sand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:20 PM

"Renege on any previous agreements on climate change"

This alone is would be disastrous, and deadly for many in other parts of the world. Trump wants to pull out of the Paris agreement, which is our best chance of mitigating in part for the damage we've caused. Trump wants to re-boot the coal industry and open up onshore and offshore site for the exploitation of hydrocarbons. His ignorance and that of his henchmen and acolytes will prove catastrophic for us all.

This could find us all across the world in deep, deep trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:23 PM

The problem of course is the "liberal elite", on her final fling, Mrs Clinton surrounded herself with members of the show business fraterniy. What have these overpaid spoilt children got to say to real families without jobs or prospects.....When times are really hard real people under financial pressure don't want to hear about the social problems of minorities or enhancing their "rights"....THEY WANT TO PUT FOOD IN THE MOUTHS OF THEIR CHILDREN.

The "liberal" fairyland which exists as a sop within the rapacious Corporate Capitalist System has been rejected over much of the "developed world. Mr Trumps election is part of that rejection and part of a huge worldwide movement which will change society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:29 PM

The problem of course is the "liberal elite",

No, Ake the problem is two fold:

1. You haven't the faintest idea what your're talking about

2. The working class in the U.S. is in complete denial about who is responsible for putting them in the economic toilet in which they find themselves. (hint: Republicruds and billionaire plutocrats like The Trumpshit)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:40 PM

"The problem of course is the "liberal elite","
One minute you're denigrating Liberalism, then you're praising it, now you are back to denigrating it.
Make up your mind laddie.
The problem is, of course, that scumbags like Trump are able to appeal to the basic instincts of the mob and play on their Xenobia and fear.
It happened with Brexit - now it's happened in the U.S.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:46 PM

"Make America hate again"
Well he has certainly made America grrrrate again, they are on fire. (all puns intended)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:14 PM

they are on fire.

Yep- the cockroaches are enabled and energized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:37 PM

Acme....all I did was illustrate the nature of Mrs Clinton in office.

As Teribus says war was more likely under a Clinton administration as she proposed a "no fly Zone" over Syria.....this would have brought us into open confrontation with Russia without any legal cover.

The chances of that happening have been greatly reduced by the election of Mr Trump.

Moves are already underway to re-set relations with the Russian government, relations which had been gravely damaged by US rhetoric.
Perhaps now we can concentrate on a combined effort to eliminate ISIS, without the idiocy of promoting Jihadists as "democratic freedom fighters"
Don't turn into "remoaners" as the "liberals" of the UK have done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:49 PM

Excuse my eyesight Bev not Bee

By way of apology this is how we are treating Trump's home at Trump Tower: First, NYPD lifted unusual concrete blocks for a wall of security. The entrance has a steel rail fence. Interim Security is a long line of Sanitation Trucks parked end to end around the building.

This is a clear example of poetic justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:29 PM

The very thought of Putin and Trump in cahoots should be enough to send shivers down the spine of any rational being. The bear will consider his friendship with the bald (comb over?) eagle carte blanche to walk into any of his neighbouring counties. As Trump has already said he will not stand by his NATO colleagues and as Europe can no longer be considered united who will be there to stop him? Latvia, Lithuania, on to Poland. Wasn't Poland invaded some time back when another right wing megalomaniac was welcomed by his state? OK, OK, invoke Godwins law if you like but it is a possibility. Maybe that is why so many think it is a good thing. Certainly get rid of that pesky Polish immigration problem for them :-(

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:25 PM

I'm as concerned about Mr.Trump's potential cadre of advisors as I am about the man himself. Ask yourself, "What kind of person would work in a Trump administration?" Then be very afraid.

Hitler would have been a historical footnote if not for the likes of Himmler, Göring, and Goebbels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:06 PM

Himmler, Goring and Goebbels were each rather squeamish, effeminate and nebbish guys anxious to prove themselves worthy. The evil was perhaps symbiotic.

Trump on his own alone is still a one man show. I am sorry to announce that he is back to tweeting, this time about the paid protesters surrounding his tower tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: olddude
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 12:50 AM

All I can say to my dear mudcat friends over the pond is.. We are so fucked.. Light a candle for the good people who actually have a brain in this country. We tried honestly we did but evil won this round


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 01:04 AM

Hey, look at the bright side: This may well mark the end of neo-liberalism which started with Bill Clinton and has been screwing the world ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 02:35 AM

I get where you are coming from Bev and Jerry. Apology accepted. Hopefully most of the many 'worst case scenarios' will somehow be deflected by common sense or otherwise minimised and there will be no parallels to Germany in the 1930's or suchlike.

That said you will accept our mea culpa and my apology for the appalling treatment of refugees by the Australian Government fleeing conflicts that both our countries have at least some responsibility for.

Anyone remember the Coalition of the Willing and what followed on from that?

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 03:38 AM

Paraphrasing a post from a friend

You know how some people demand that all Muslims apologise for the actions of Islamic terrorists? Well, as an old white bloke, I'd like to apologise in advance for Donald Trump.

Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 03:45 AM

""What kind of person would work in a Trump administration?""
Maybe he's planning to settle for attractive young women?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 05:39 AM

"All I can say to my dear mudcat friends over the pond is.. We are so fucked.. "

Aye. We have fucked things up together Dan, Brexit was a vote for xenophobes and hatred too and we led by demagogues and men of straw, who exploited the disillusionment and despair felt by people who felt abandoned by the political establishment. This is a grim path our countries are heading down...

We can't give up, we must challenge these people to ensure they do not drag us any further back to the dark days of the 1930's. We must ensure we continue to do science, make art, wrote poetry and play music. Be tolerant, compassionate, healthily skeptical and curious. Question everything, listen closely and never be provoked into outright conflict.

We can weather this storm although it's going to be tough, and we'll come out of the other side stronger. We can do this! Reason will prevail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 05:48 AM

If nothing else this proves that simply using the racist/xenophobe/sexist argument does not work. Tough as it is we must try to convince the people who were forced into voting for Trump (and Brexit) and, yes, I use the term forced purposely, that there is a better alternative. The politics of the better of two evils must be driven from the political platform and we must give people hope for a real change instead of two sides of the same coin.

I know a lot of people will disagree and, if I am honest, I have yet to be convinced myself but Corbyn looks to be the best bet for this type of change in the UK. Sanders looked to be the same in the US and, hopefully, both of those or similar candidates will prove their worth in 4 years time.

Fingers crossed.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 07:43 AM

Right on Stu!

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: olddude
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 01:04 PM

My feeling now is I cannot do anything about the direction of the country or the election. I can prevent the bastard from visiting my home via tv. When he shows up, tv off. Not in home he doesn't visit in any form


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:49 PM

Dan, you're just pissed that you won't get you're boots up on that desk in the oval office....:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:19 PM

You really do think this is all just the equivelant of a football match, don't you Ake? Just like BeardedBS does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 08:08 PM

Listen Greg, I don't want to offend you and as I've said many times I admire your consistency, but you deserve all you got in the election.

You had a real reformer who although "selling out" his supporters when the battle was lost, could have beaten Mr Trump, but the "liberal intelligencia" could not stomach real change, in fact they don't want change at all, they just want a nice bit of posturing while the country and the world go down the fucking pan.
"liberals" are the problem, they are the impediment to the construction of a fair, equitable society.....they simply get in the fucking way. They are not stupid, they do not lack education, they have no excuses. They like things just as they are, with a few smokescreens like "homosexual marriage" thrown in.
They denigrate institutions which benefit society like the Church and the Family, while promoting drug use and promiscuity.

They are the wrecking crew for an economic system in terminal decline and Western "developed" countries will not begin a revival campaign until they are sidelined and made to understand that everything cannot be given as a right, many important things must be worked for and sacrifices made to achieve. The political world is changing fast and the "liberals" are already becoming the dinosaurs
They are the reason the Republicans are going into government and not the Democrats. Save your abuse for those who chose Mrs Clinton over Mr Sanders, for those who voted for "more of the same", not because Clinton was the lesser of two evils but because they had not the guts or the foresight.

Finally you like to throw around words like racist, homophobe, bigot, idiot, xenophobe at anyone who does not share "liberal" ideology, how patronising, do you think that is a sensible way to conduct debate? to change people' minds? or is it more likely to promote a siege mentality? I believe it deserves one of your favourite words "Fascism". Fascism of the over educated and socially inadequate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: olddude
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 08:15 PM

Ake some truth to that Lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 08:38 PM

I'm sincerely sorry for your disappointment Dan.

I used to go for the little brown trout who inhabit the wee burn behind my house...lovely and sweet in oatmeal......now I go to the fishmonger for a pound of North Sea Haddock containing all the contaminants a man could wish for......sad days! I can be just as depressed as you ....keep well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 08:40 PM

My agnosticism is kicking in big time. He {She} gave us Donald J. Trump and took away Leonard Cohen? To quote Dick Cavett when he was asked to comment on the demise of a colleague, "Why is it never Cheney?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 09:29 PM

Ake, do keep ranting on if it pleases you, but as many folks besides me have told you, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

And taking your last screed aside, how does any of that make Trump any less a piece of absolute shit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 04:07 AM

To those struggling with the term "liberal" I would recommend reading the following article that explains neolibralism. It is a bit hard going but worth the effort.

Neolibralism

If you do not get to the end take away this paragraph at least.

It may seem strange that a doctrine promising choice and freedom should have been promoted with the slogan "there is no alternative". But, as Hayek remarked on a visit to Pinochet's Chile – one of the first nations in which the programme was comprehensively applied – "my personal preference leans toward a liberal dictatorship rather than toward a democratic government devoid of liberalism". The freedom that neoliberalism offers, which sounds so beguiling when expressed in general terms, turns out to mean freedom for the pike, not for the minnows.

Once we understand the issues we can begin to address them and using the correct terms without conflating the ideas of liberalism and nelibralism is a good start.

Enjoy

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM

My agnosticism is kicking in big time. He {She} gave us Donald J. Trump and took away Leonard Cohen? To quote Dick Cavett when he was asked to comment on the demise of a colleague, "Why is it never Cheney?"

Well in the "In Memoriam" column of our local paper I quite often read in the entries that "God only takes the best." Well I think that's slightly inaccurate. He does take the whole lot, but he leaves the worst for as long as possible, as they are the last thing he wants cluttering up the place. By that tenet, unfortunately for us, Trump is probably destined to live to about 124.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:12 AM

Sorry but I must add to my last post as I have not made it clear to those who cannot or will not read and comprehend the article.

Friedrich Hayek was one of the founders of modern neolibralsism. The quote I gave was meant to be an example of where he was coming from and, believe me, preferring Picochet's Chile to a liberal democracy is not a good thing by anyone's measure.

Hope this helps.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Hrothgar
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:00 AM

"Apologize for their existence but not for the entire American people who participate in the American experiment of Democracy."

Donuel, I hate to break the bad news, but it appears that about 46% of eligible voters did not participate in the American experiment of Democracy this time around.

We have compulsory voting here, and thank God for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM

Once we understand the issues we can begin to address them
AH! 'Kelvin's Caution' is "to measure is to know"
Lord Kelvin ( Sir William Thomson )


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:14 AM

While the Americans think an apology is needed for half the nation exercising their right to vote , they might like to apologise for the rioters who violently oppose the result of that right to vote.   It remains to be seen how trump will do , but I'm sure he will upset most on here . However, he is already showing that he is not intransigent following a positive meeting with Obama , and is sounding conciliatory with Hillary . Of course whatever he does now will be criticised by one extreme or the other, but I reckon the haters on here are willing him to fail!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:21 AM

Thank you Mr Red - Good collection of wise words there. Immediately below the one you quote is "If you can not measure it, you can not improve it." :-)

I wonder if the Obama haters on here who were willing for the prior incumbent to fail now like the boot being on the other foot. I suspect not as it does seem to be human nature to not accept what is good for the goose is also good for the gander!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:26 AM

"an apology is needed for half the nation exercising their right to vote ,
Been here before Pete - maybe you weren't listening
The Nazis voted into office
If decent people had taken to the streets to protest at the time, there would have been a lot more Jews around today.
Perhaps we all should learn from history?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:34 AM

Perhaps its worth repeating this here - does no harm anyway

"would be as nothing compared to the numbers who voted to make Mr Trump president"
Do you know how many Germans voted Hitler into power Ake - would you have howled as loudly if good Germans had taken to the streets to protest that "democratic"victory - a rhetorical question - I know the answer to that one) ?
This "democratic" victory will have repercussions world wide - not only do I hope this display of opposition continues and spreads in the U.S., but I hope it takes on over here - in fact, I hope it becomes a worldwide movement.
America has elected a racist, antisemitic, homophobic, misogynistic, hate-spreading thug as president - none of this description is disputed - we watched him proving it throughout the election campaign.
A man who has suggested at least six times that nuclear weapons are the answer to many of today's problems now has his finger on the nuclear trigger.
Democracy my arse - the safety and well being of the people are far more important than the sham democracy that enables a man like Trump - a man with no track record or obvious ability - to buy his way into office.
Our governments will appease this man, no matter whether he restricts his actions to his election promises or adds to them tenfold - he is now CiC of the world's most powerful state.
This persistent swing to the extreme right has to be stopped or the Holocaust will look like a minor traffic accident in comparison to what might happen.
Trump, May, Netanyahu, Putin..... and possibly LePen - not a world I hoped to have left to those who follow me.
I hope to see them out on the streets in their millions before these monsters infect the world with their diseased minds.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:24 AM

Here come the Trumpite cockroaches- and you ain't seen nuthin yet!

***

Schools report racist incidents in wake of Trump election

Errin Haines Whack and Jay Reeves, Associated Press
Saturday, November 12, 2016

In the wake of Donald Trump's election, reports of racist incidents are emerging from the nation's schools and universities, including students who chanted "white power" and called black classmates "cotton pickers."

Reporting by The Associated Press and local media outlets has identified more than 20 such encounters beginning on Election Day, many involving people too young to cast a ballot.

On Wednesday, minority students at a high school in Gurnee, Illinois, organized a meeting and protest after a "whites only" message was found scrawled on a bathroom door. The same day in Michigan, students at Royal Oak Middle school were filmed chanting "build a wall" in the cafeteria.

At Trump's alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, black freshmen were added to a group chat in which one post read "daily lynching," and one participant was called a "dumb slave." The Penn president said the chat appeared to be based in Oklahoma and that university police were trying to locate the exact source.

Also in Pennsylvania, two students at the York County School of Technology held a Donald Trump sign in a hallway as someone shouted "white power," an incident captured on video and widely shared on Facebook.

The morning after the election, leaflets from the Ku Klux Klan showed up in a neighborhood in Birmingham, Alabama. At Central Texas University in San Marcos, police were investigating who posted fliers Thursday around campus urging the formation of "tar and feather vigilante squads" and threatening to "arrest and torture" campus diversity advocates.

In Durham, North Carolina, two walls were spray-painted with the statement "Black lives don't matter and neither does your vote."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:55 AM

My apologies to the 10 year olds who walk into lunch rooms that are chanting "Build the Wall...", so angrily it make skin less than lily white crawl.

My apologies to every border town that will lose their entire economy when a wall stops their blood flow of goods and dollars.

My apologies to the young women raped by a legitimized entitlement of male trumpists.

My apologies to all those who were duped despite the fact they should have known better.

My apologies to the morally challenged starved into submission who supported Trump.

Trump is a setback for decades, enough to lose hope of steering climate effects for the better, I am sorry Earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:42 PM

Any of that happened Donuel? Or does all of that have the same stamp of Donuel truth as your blatant lies about Senator John McCain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 04:16 AM

"Any of that happened Donuel? "
Give Trump Time - has only just won.
Trumpitania wasn't built in a day.
That is a fair summing up of the possible consequences of electing such a man.
Your support for an openly-declared racist, misogynist, antisemitic, blundering thud doesn't surprise me in the least - par for your particular course
Isn't it interesting that none of these people actually get around to denying what trump is and what he stands for?
All their birthdays seem to have come at the same time on this one.
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM

Schools report racist incidents in wake of Trump election

Post Brexit we got these. The key to it is not to let it pass - make a stand.

There was in Britain a Safety Pin Campaign. Those wearing one were signifying they dislike the trend, and more importantly were a person a victim could goto in the event.

I have a rather large one in red but I have to hang it from a regular sized one to not distress my 64 red T-Shirts. (Some carry precious memories)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM

Trump has announced that building a wall to keep Mexicans out was "just talk" and that he has no intention of scrapping Obamacare - a double whammy really.
He's exposed himself as a liar and has hung his supporters out to dry by allowing themselves to expose themselves as what kind of people they are.
Never mind - he might have thrown them a bone - Sarah Palin is tipped as Minister of the Interior
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:22 AM

Jim ....Obamacare will be scrapped, but there are bits of the bill which will of course be retained in new legislation.....I don't think that could possibly be avoided. I see no contradictions, the controversial sections are where costs of obtaining healthcare for some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM

Why shouldn't they riot,Pete. The candidate they voted for got the most votes but still didn't win the election. This ridiculous electoral college system has yielded yet another dangerous incompetent, as it did 16 years ago, making a mockery of the one man, one vote concept. I hope they stay pissed off so Herr Trump remains aware that he has anything but a mandate for the next 4 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:38 AM

Sarah Palin, the lass who put alas in Alaska!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:04 AM

"Obamacare will be scrapped"
He was on the hot-line to you this morning, was he?
"but there are bits of the bill which will of course be retained in new legislation"
Of course - why waste all that money on the undeserving poor?
"I don't think that could possibly be avoided"
You would say that - you being you.
"I see no contradictions"
He said he was building a wall - he lied
He promised to scrap Obamacare - he lied
No contradictions - just lies.
"some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled."
Breed like rabbits, the poor, don't they?
You're a caricature Ake - a caricature!!!
Makes the cereal and toast go down a treat on a rainy Sunday morning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:22 AM

John Cleese has spoken
or was it him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 07:36 AM

Jim, is it failing eyesight or do you continually misquote people on purpose?    I hope it is the former.

I don't think you are really that devious, just ideologically challenged.

" I see no contradictions, the controversial sections are where costs of obtaining healthcare for some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled."   a completely different meaning than the one you tried to impugn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 08:35 AM

"Jim, is it failing eyesight or do you continually misquote people on purpose?   "
You are coming down with a nasty dose of the Teribus's - please don't talk down to me - neither you nor he are tall enough to talk down to anybody - it doesn't work for him, and he's infinitely better at putting up smokescreens and straw man
You said ""Obamacare will be scrapped" - it won't, according to Trump.
What will almost certainly happen is that the money spent on the most needy will be cut to pay for the better off needy - an old right trick to keep working people on their side - and divided.
However, I didn't draw my conclusion from that, but your previous displayed contempt for any form of "dependence state" (your words) because it will inevitably be misused and exploited by the users (your accusations).
Perhaps if you cleaned up your act, people wouldn't keep pointing out what an extremely unpleasant right-wing individual you are.   
One again - stop talking down to me - or anybody - you simply aren't good enough to strut your superiority in front of any here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 08:47 AM

You hope that Jim has failing eyesight now, do you? Well it's a good job for you that our dreams don't come true, for who knows what bits of you would be rolling all over the floor by now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 09:49 AM

Sorry, don't understand the last two posts, but suppose they must be some sort of juvenile threat?
Jim has(deliberately?) misquoted me in two recent threads, I do not think that is permissible on this forum.

I am prepared to accept an apology .....if he has the balls for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM

Just one worrisome problem, how does Jim know how tall or short I am?
Perhaps he has been communicating with my pet stalker (Musket) who used to follow me about my village attempting to spread shit around?

I am of average height for a man of my age.....but strong as a bear....Beware!!! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 10:14 AM

Just because Musket isn't here keeping and eye on you doesn't mean you get to spread shit around at will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 10:22 AM

H.L. Mencken got it right:

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 10:33 AM

"Just one worrisome problem, how does Jim know how tall or short I am?"
Mantally Ake, mentally!!
Just had a nasty round of fisticuffs with Muskett - would be difficult to squeeze a credit card between the personalities of the pair of you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 10:41 AM

Clarence Darrow also nailed it with this bit of satire:

When I was a boy, I was told that anybody could become President. Now I'm beginning to believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 10:51 AM

No shit Acme!

Jim, lest there be any misunderstanding, I don't wish failing eyesight on you, I am not that sort of person, but at our age failing eyesight is a fact of life.....I suffer the problem myself and understand mistakes can be made, but the quotes were definitely not mine as I think you will see if you take the time to re-read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 11:08 AM

off message response

Is it the missile that was fired from the jet Mc Cain was seated in while parked on the deck of the carrier that resulted in a conflagration that's got you holding a grudge or the over 35 votes he cast to deny additional benefits to veterans that has you eternally upset. There are so many other instances that cast him in an honorable light to remember. Nobody is perfect.


the first scenario has happened to millions of kids whose skin crawls to the vociferous hate chants, the rest have a future pov.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

In case there is a misunderstanding Ake - I don't care one way or the other - I'm far more concerned about your very disturbing politics
I would hate to thing that an independent Scotland could end up with a Donald MacTrump in the shape of yourself.
"but the quotes were definitely not mine"
If you mean the "leftie" one - I know that and have apologised
Can't think of another you might be talking about.
Clarence Darrow - one of my heroes until he defended Leopold and Loeb.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 11:34 AM

Apology accepted Jim, thanks.....water under the bridge...eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 01:01 PM

"Apology accepted Jim, thanks.....water under the bridge...eh?"
Yes thank you -and no
What took you so long?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 01:27 PM

Sorry to see that Jim, here is the quote which you amended to make look racist.
" I see no contradictions, the controversial sections are where costs of obtaining healthcare for some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 03:11 PM

"Sorry to see that Jim, here is the quote which you amended to make look racist."
You've got me there twice Ake
"Racist"
I really didn't know that the poor were a "race" - I always thought they were a section of a social class - you live and learn!!
I wonder if that wasn't a Freudian slip on your part - yo know - all blacks, or Asians, or West Indians are.....?
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
"Amended"
I amended nothing - nor did I attempt to distort what you said..
I paraphrased what you have said in the past (I've already said this - remember "dependency state") and took it too what a logical conclusion with people who hold your views - sort of middle/class cum Tory ones about the poor having too many children.
You don't appear to realise you are a stereotype of the worst aspects of an unequal society - very easy to caricature, which is what I did and all I intended to do.
None of your attitude will ever be "water under the bridge" for me" - your attitude to immigrants, particularly those in dire trouble, has made sure of that.
One of the last jobs I did in London was to make safe the wiring for an Asian customer.
He had had petrol poured though his letterbox and set fire to - his five year old daughter had been burned around the face and lost part of her hair.
While I wouldn't suggest for one moment that you would do such a thing, acts such as this are instigated by people like you who instigate hate with your bigotry and intolerance, so you can excuse me if I prefer to keep a distance between us.
I'm sure you'll be delighted to know that Donald Trump has declared that he will deport between two and three million immigrants
Don't you wish our Govenment had the bottle to do the same??
Jim Carroll

.

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 04:38 PM

I'm sorry Jim, but you are simply wrong, here is how you distorted what I said.....

"some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled."
Breed like rabbits, the poor, don't they?


Again, here is my post.....
" I see no contradictions, the controversial sections are where costs of obtaining healthcare for some sections of society have tripled , or quadrupled."........you are a proven weasel Jim,
and an ungracious one at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:28 PM

" Donuel - 13 Nov 16 - 11:08 AM

off message response

Is it the missile that was fired from the jet Mc Cain was seated in while parked on the deck of the carrier that resulted in a conflagration that's got you holding a grudge"


No grudge Donuel, I just do not like people who spread deliberate lies as you have done. John McCain flew a Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, ground attack aircraft and he was sitting in his aircraft when a rocket from wing station of a parked McDonnell Douglas F-4B Phantom II fired and hit the external fuel tank of a Skyhawk parked beside McCain's aircraft. The rocket did not explode but it's motor caused the escaping fuel to ignite which caused the conflagration that resulted in the deaths of 134 sailors. Lt-Cdr John McCain had absolutely nothing to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM

And yet, more Trumpist cockroaches. Sieg Heil Trump!!

------

While all sides of the political spectrum have reported problems, Andrew Anglin, a vocal Trump supporter and a leader of the alt-right movement, called explicitly for intimidation of "brown people" on his neo-Nazi website, The Daily Stormer.

"I am of course against any violence against these people," he wrote. "However, I do think you should yell at them. We want them to feel that everything around them is against them. And we want them to be afraid."

The Southern Poverty Law Center created a web page on Thursday to funnel the reports, and received more than 200 within 24 hours. They also started an online petition, which had more than 35,000 signatures as of Friday, asking Mr. Trump to condemn the behavior.


Which the Trumpshit has not done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:01 PM

Q I'm sure if Hillary had won under the same system you would not be harping on about one Man one vote . As it happens, I agree that's how it ought to be , and perhaps the system should be changed, but not retrospectively because you don't like the outcome . And then go round rioting . And nazi parallels are distasteful and grossly exaggerated and are the result of different opinions .


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:56 PM

"I am of course against any violence against these people," he wrote. "However, I do think you should yell at them. We want them to feel that everything around them is against them. And we want them to be afraid."

Definitely "grossly exaggerated and the result of a different opinion"


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 07:00 PM

You find nazi parallels distasteful, Pete but don't seem to mind race hatred used as a political expedient. Interesting set of priorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 07:07 PM

Well he isn't very nice about moooslims, is he, Pete. But I suppose moooslims ain't Christians, so that's all right then. And where are these riots, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 07:25 PM

Hmm. Well it's perfectly fine for you to accept official reports of the Forrestal tragedy, Teribus. A bit like me accepting Shami Chakrabarti's report in a way. Thing is, there are conflicting stories about what really happened. Great, you accept the establishment version. But there are other versions, and it ill behoves you to call someone a liar just because they demur from your version of the tale. You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Donuel and this issue. How typical of you to aggressively assert that you have the monopoly on the truth of it. There is a chance that you don't..


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 08:16 PM

Sigh! The usual suspects bagging each other again and going way off track from the intent of the original posting. Sadly it must be time to close this thread too. Apologies to Bev and Jerry.

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 08:30 PM

"you are a proven weasel Jim,"
And you are a proven distorter of your own beliefs
THat is what you said in the past and that is what I took you to mean
Trump opposed Obamacare and you support him
Obamacare was intended to provide affordable health care to those who cannot afford it.
You have opposed free health in the past, describing it as "relying on benefit culture"
The major opposition to Obamacare is that too many people are using it.
You are now squirming off your past opposition and you have totally ignored everything else I wrote - as you always do.
Let's leave it here - I'm quite happy to let people judge you for what you are and what you have stated endlessly - which I caricatured - as I do often.
I would have been stupid to claim that that is what you actually wrote here - I'm many things, but I'm not that stupid.
"Breed like rabbits" is typical of how you view working people.
TRUMP and the NAZIS
"Donald Trump yesterday tweeted out a campaign image that featured troops in Nazi uniforms alongside a picture of The White House, with the slogan "we need real leadership". He included the hashtag #MakeAmericaGreatAgain along with the tweet."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 03:34 AM

No Jim, my opposition to "Obamacare" is that many low paid people in the US are finding health care unaffordable. It seems to be a gravy train for the health insurance industry.

"Breed like rabbits" I fail to see the context of that remark, other than extreme nastiness.   I come from a vey poor family who were all hard workers, in my youth big families were common now two children is the norm, but never at any time have I mentioned anything derogator regarding family life.....quite the contrary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:04 AM

"Thing is, there are conflicting stories about what really happened." - Steve Shaw

"But there are other versions," - Steve Shaw

Really Steve - Let's hear them and see how they could in any way shape or form fit the line spouted by Donuel that "John McCain was directly responsible for the deaths of 134 sailors on the USS Forrestal"

Fact is Shaw that there is no way at all that that lie can be seriously considered or substantiated. But I am absolutely dying to hear these "other versions" and the "conflicting stories" - my bet is that we will not hear another peep out of you on the subject.

I was in the Navy at the time and we studied the extensive film coverage of the incident as it happened to determine what lessons could be learned. The cause of the fire was firmly and indisputably established and, hate to say this Shaw, but someone sitting in the cockpit of a Douglas A-4 Skyhawk positioned on the Port side of the flight deck of rather a large aircraft carrier could not possibly be responsible for an electrical power surge to the wing station mounted missile pod on a McDonnell Douglas F-4B Phantom II positioned on the Starboard side of the flight deck. Over to you, tell me where in any of that I am in error.





and it ill behoves you to call someone a liar just because they demur from your version of the tale. You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Donuel and this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:11 AM

"I fail to see the context of that remark, other than extreme nastiness."
Part of the stereotype Ake - it goes along with making refugees wear armbands when even the Conservative right have abandoned it as a dangerous idea.
You are of a type - "know thyself" - as Polonious was once heard to remark.
Moving on.
I notice Ukip have adapted Trump's slogan to "Make Britain Great Again"
Fascist, Marie LePen has heralded Trumps victory as making possible her "impossible dream" of leading France in the next election.
Nine elections are due in Europe next year and it is predicted that Trump's victory will prove a huge boost to the far-right candidates
Even the near-defunct Ku Klux Clan have planned a rally to celebrate his victory
Can anyone seriously attempt to disassociate The Mayor of Trumpington with the ultra-right?
I would guess we all have a bumpy ride ahead - the situation is volatile.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:42 AM

"And nazi parallels are distasteful and grossly exaggerated and are the result of different opinions ."

Trump has just appointed a hardened anti-semite as his senior advisor. He's about to try and deport 3 million people, who will need to be held somewhere and given the jails won't hold them, I'm guessing we're looking at camps.

Seem familiar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:50 AM

Two nice comments on Trump in the Irish Times this morning
A photoograph of a protester carrying a banner saying "Sauron shell fall" (for Lord of the rings fans.
A wonderful one line comment on the letter page "We shall overcomb"
Just like the Blitz - it brings out the best in people.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 06:35 AM

Sorry "Sauron Shall fall"
***** keyboard
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:22 AM

Apologies I didn't deal with the last point made by Shaw:

"and it ill behoves you to call someone a liar just because they demur from your version of the tale. You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Donuel and this issue." - Steve Shaw

Really? Donuel lied about Lt-Cdr John McCain and falsely accused him of being responsible for the deaths of 134 American sailors? Is it acceptable to let the false accusation just stand without challenge - You would probably say yes as you are very good at throwing out baseless accusations then when asked you refuse point blank to provide any substantiation - fortunately, I am pleased to say, I am nothing like you - If someone attempts to state something as the truth that I KNOW to be a lie I will tell then so in no uncertain terms - So far Donuel has not had the decency, honesty or integrity to admit his error and retract his lie.

"it ill behoves you to call someone a liar just because they demur from your version of the tale"

MY version of the tale?? Hardly - but once more Shaw merely jumps in to argue the toss from the stand point of complete and utter ignorance on a subject he knows S.F.A. about - The forensic analysis of the incident undertaken by Rear-Admiral Forsyth Massey USN is what forms what Shaw calls my "version" - It took months of painstaking work and effort undertaken by people who were experts in their technical fields, to come up with the definitive explanation of the chain of events that led to the fire. There have been no alternative explanations, no alternative versions - as Shaw's silence would tend to support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 08:44 AM

Still bullying and blustering and flinging your accusations at everybody on this thread Teribus
What did I tell you about taking your medication.
"It took months of painstaking work and effort undertaken by people who were experts in their technical fields, to come up with the definitive explanation of the chain of events that led to the fire."
Then why do you consistently refuse to link to what you claim?
Until you do, they are no more than opinions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 09:24 AM

There's a long and detailed technical explanation of the cause of the Forrestal explosions and fire, available on the web - try Wikipedia for a start. It's absolutely clear that McCain had nothing to do with the start of it.

The point is, folks, what on earth has all this to do with a thread which started off quietly and modestly from Bev and Jerry, trying from their hearts to conciliate friends on this forum who might be upset by Trump's election? What indeed?

The answer is: Bugger all. Why do these threads have to get screwed up over and over again by pathetic in-fighting and stupidity - Mudcat a là Mode, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 09:40 AM

Here's your boy gain, Ake!
***

A White Nationalist Is The New White House Chief Strategist

Steve Bannon, who stoked the flames of alt-right fury while running Breitbart News, is headed to the presidential inner circle.
11/13/2016

Kim Bellware Reporter, The Huffington Post

Steve Bannon, the Breitbart News Network executive chairman known for having white nationalist views ― and who has himself been accused of anti-Semitism ― was named chief strategist and senior counselor to President-elect Donald Trump on Sunday.

At Breitbart, Bannon helped make the hardline populist website a go-to resource for white nationalists and the alt-right, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups

Breitbart has propagated conspiracy theories, like Planned Parenthood having Nazi ties or Clinton aide Huma Abedin being a spy for Saudi Arabia. The website traffics in misogynist and racist stories; it frames women who push back against harassment or gender bias as weak and incompetent and portrays people of color and immigrants as inherently criminal.

Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) spokesman Adam Jentleson said Trump's choice of Bannon "signals that White Supremacists will be represented at the highest levels in Trump's White House. " "It is easy to see why the KKK views Trump as their champion," he added.

The SPLC and the Anti-Defamation League expressed concern over the appointment as well, with the ADL saying Bannon and "his alt-right are so hostile to core American values."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-chief-strategist_us_5828e1d4e4b0c4b63b0d33d7


"The next wave of fascism will come not with cattle cars and camps. It will come with a friendly face."
         - Bertram Gross, "Friendly Fascism"


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 09:51 AM

I'm not going argue the fat for any particular version of that incident. I was pointing out to Teribus that there have been alternative theories as to what happened, and, as there was scope for a cover-up, I feel that condemning Donuel as a liar for not accepting the establishment explanation is a bit strong. That's all. As for thread drift, Will, just look what's happened to my poor poppy thread. But I'm not that bothered. C'est la vie hereabouts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

"I was pointing out to Teribus that there have been alternative theories as to what happened"

Really? What a pity then that you cannot actually come up with even one of them then isn't it Steve.

Will Fly this came up because Donuel started apologising for stuff that has not even happened and I pulled him up on it. In the 2012 Presidential Election that was when Donuel came out on this forum with the slur against McCain saying that due to his incompetence he was directly responsible for the deaths of 134 US sailors.

"Is it the missile that was fired from the jet Mc Cain was seated in while parked on the deck of the carrier that resulted in a conflagration that's got you holding a grudge" - Donuel - 13 Nov 16 - 11:08 AM

OK Will as you yourself have pointed out - "There's a long and detailed technical explanation of the cause of the Forrestal explosions and fire, available on the web - try Wikipedia for a start. It's absolutely clear that McCain had nothing to do with the start of it. Do you think that Donuel's lie about John McCain should pass without comment? I certainly don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 11:10 AM

Do you think that Donuel's lie about John McCain should pass without comment? I certainly don't.

You must do what you think is appropriate, and it's not that which pisses me off - it's the hijacking of a decent, sincere thread by arguments that have nothing to do with it. This is not a personal pop at you or Donuel, Teribus - just my frustration with interpersonal rants by a small group of people popping up on thread after thread - rants which have nothing to do with the thread or the spirit of the thread.

Nail lies by all means - but on a specific thread that deals with the lie. That's my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: bobad
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

MY version of the tale?? Hardly - but once more Shaw merely jumps in to argue the toss from the stand point of complete and utter ignorance on a subject he knows S.F.A. about

Well, that's Shaw's currency, isn't it? Any facts that contradict his ideology are just someone's "version" - especially if that someone is a Jew and/or a supporter of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 11:44 AM

Will, I thought the OP was patronising in the extreme, how dare they apologise for people who were only exercising their democratic right to vote for whom they please. It seems typical of the elitist mindset which took away the political representation of countless millions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 11:49 AM

Well it seems that Hillary has won the popular vote by millions, and that she got more votes than any presidential candidate in history, winners and losers, save Barack Obama. Seems like it's your electoral system you should be apologising for, not what US citizens did!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 12:03 PM

how dare they apologise

Because a racist, white-supremecist, misogynist, corrupt, tax-evading, confidence man, sexual predator lying sack of garbage (and his growing cadre of similar undesirables) is now the head of state of "The Greatest Country On Earth", perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM

Will, I thought the OP was patronising in the extreme, how dare they apologise for people who were only exercising their democratic right to vote for whom they please. It seems typical of the elitist mindset which took away the political representation of countless millions.

You don't get my point, do you? It doesn't matter what the OPs did or didn't mean, or how it might be taken by anyone. The point is that to discuss the rights and/or wrongs of an unrelated incident from the Vietnam war and the particular actions or non-actions of a senator in that conflict has sweet FA to do with the thread. Nothing to do with it - is irrelevant to it - doesn't have the slightest link to the original topic.

Got the point now? It's what happens to so many threads on Mudcat - massive drift because a coterie of people can't watch their lips and stick to the topic. Just the same, internecine squabbling by the same few people - over and over again.

It's what makes so much of the Mudcat B.S. section a huge turn-off for many people who don't post down here any more. Anyway, end of my rant and particular drift!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 12:50 PM

"Got the point now?"

I think Will, that might never actually happen. Another thread down the pan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 01:08 PM

I always got the point and I agree about thread drift, but most of the squabbles on this thread concerned the election, the result of which solicited the OP.
The reasons for the OP remain debatable. Some may question whether conciliation was the reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 01:33 PM

Some may question whether conciliation was the reason.

Perhaps observation and thoughtful consideration of objective reality was the reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 02:43 PM

Here is Bev and Jerry's OP again:.

Subject: BS: Our Apology
From: Bev and Jerry - PM
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 12:44 AM

To all of our friends living outside of America, it's worth reposting:

Please accept our most heartfelt apology for what the people of America have done. Words cannot express our remorse.

Throughout our entire adult lives, we sincerely believed that interpersonal relations in this country were improving. Often times, progress was slow and, at times, we fell back but, on the whole, social justice was winning in America.

But, in 2008, Barack Obama was elected president and the deep-seated hatred for the "other" began to surface. Gradually, more and more intolerance began to be expressed against people of other races, religions, national origins and sexual preference. As the drumbeat of bigotry increased in intensity, Donald Trump saw his opportunity and now we have enshrined our mutual distrust and hatred of others in the highest office in the land.

As if this were not enough, we have unleashed this unstable and ill-equipped personality on the entire world. Our actions will have a profound effect on world trade, global warming, social justice and any progress towards world peace and cooperation for decades.

Once again, we deeply regret what our country has done and we humbly beg your forgiveness.

Bev and Jerry

I don't see any attempt to effect a conciliation. It is exactly what it says it is, a heartfelt apology. Bev and Jerry have done an excellent job of articulating the sadness and embarrassment that millions of decent Americans feel at the election of this regressive jackass who has given people permission to hate those of a different kind again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 02:47 PM

"it's worth reposting" should be deleted from the first sentence of the OP and moved to the end of my opening sentence. Missed my target. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 03:02 PM

"patronising in the extreme,"
I do wish I'd placed a bet on who would be the supporters of this obscene monster!!!
It is not patonising - it is a genuine apology for an incredibly bad national mistake - if you have any doubt how bad it was - just read his manifesto of intentions - openly racist and openly divisive.
The self indulgent result will effect us all -
I thought it was a joke this morning when I read that senior Tories are protesting that Theresa May has refused to use Nigel farage as a go between between Britain and Trump!!!
For crying out loud - NIGEL ****** FARAGE - a beer swilling, inarticulate racist moron that the British electorate have rejected - a 'leader' totally incapable of putting together a leadership for his own party!!!
So far, none of Trups apologists have muttered a word of opposition to the descriptions - racist, misogynistic, antisemitic, hate-filled.... any takers Ake - are we being unfair or are you happy with load of garbage leading the most powerful country on the planet?
It would not surprise me in the least if the totally unprecedented street protests didnt turn into an open fight between good and evil - real 'Lord of the Rings stuff!!
I'd buy into that one.
Nad before Ake repeats his inane defence of this cretin - Hitler was elected into power on something that passed for a democratic vote.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM

"Please accept our most heartfelt apology for what the people of America have done. Words cannot express our remorse."

Who do they think they are
Mr Trump WON the election, I don't agree with his domestic policies, but the people who voted for him do not think for one moment that they have anything to apologise for....they possibly see the defeat of a war mongering corporatist and a corrupt political party which acts against the interests of one of its official candidates as a positive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:26 PM

Jim, anyone who claims that Mr Farage is "inarticulate", does not deserve a response....he has single handedly laid waste to the whole "liberal" political circus....he's all over Youtube, you can watch his responses to questions on any economic or political subject and they will be factual and very articulate.

A measure of his ability is available in the spite and hatred shown by people like yourself to his success.
When Mr Farage first demonstrated the idiocy of unregulated immigration every political party opposed and denigrated him, now every Party has adopted his views that we need to have control of who, and how many can migrate to the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:58 PM

More importantly, Ake, who the fu*k do you think YOU are?

the people who voted for him do not think for one moment that they have anything to apologise for.

Nor did those who voted for Hitler or Mussolini. Get a frickin grip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: bobad
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:15 PM

Well, at least some good that has come about because of the Trump effect, two Jewish and Muslim groups have formed an alliance to address anti-Muslim bigotry and anti-Semitism in the U.S." and to "protect and expand the rights of religious minorities" in the country.

read more: Haaretz


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:32 PM

Bubo citing Haaretz! Its the end of the world.

So Bubo- what's your take on Trumps antisemetic advisor?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:42 PM

Fair point Greg, I'm not an American citizen, but I have a friend with dual nationality in North Carolina and she says the folks there are almost all supporting Mr Trump and they are kind, decent people. They don't seem to fit into the template that you present to us.

A lot of people voted on social grounds(according to my friend), they don't like the new morality, attacks on the family and the Church...every day brings another brick from the wall and the backlash has begun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:52 PM

I find it almost beyond comprehension that anyone who claims political awareness could be so easily fooled by a politician blatantly pandering to populist policies. I suppose I am cynical on one hand in that I assume that politicians automatically lie yet just naive to think that others can see through thinly veiled ploys to gain power by telling them what they want to hear. Maybe people get what they deserve but, unfortunately, they drag the rest of humanity down with them.

Sigh.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:52 PM

Regrets are in order, but not really apologies.

Here's what Michael Moore had to say about that.
You must say this sentence to everyone you meet today: "HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE!" The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period. Fact. If you woke up this morning thinking you live in an effed-up country, you don't. The majority of your fellow Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he's president is because of an arcane, insane, 18th-century idea called the Electoral College. Until we change that, we'll continue to have presidents we didn't elect and didn't want.

You live in a country where a majority of citizens have said they believe there's climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don't want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the "liberal" position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:56 PM

I have a friend with dual nationality in North Carolina and she says the folks there are almost all supporting Mr Trump and they are kind, decent people.

How nice for you.

Perhaps then you can explain to me why these supposed "kind, decent people" would support a a racist, white-supremecist, Islamaphobe, misogynist, corrupt, tax-evading, confidence man(Trump University), sexual predator congenital lying sack of garbage.

And perhaps you should pose the question to your friend in North Carolina. Let us know what answer she supplies, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:09 PM

Well Greg....in many cases it appears that Mr Trump is merely the vehicle to achieve the change that the jobless unrepresented people of blue collar America want. That huge section of US society was ignored by the last Democratic administration and suffered the consequences.
When a populist like Mr Sanders appeared on the centre left, he was quickly hog tied by the Party hierarchy, which proved to be another nail in the coffin of so called liberalism......many people decided that it was a sham, a smokescreen to mask the misdeeds of the political establishment. The Corporatists, fronted by the Clinton Dynasty and the Clinton Foundation, supported by money from regimes which export terrorism even to the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:16 PM

Mr McGrath I am surprised to see you denigrate the electoral college, as you have often been an opponent of "first past the post" on this forum. Do you think that only we are politically mature enough to dispense with this type of electoral system?

The very worst point of the US system is "super delegates" in the primaries and they favoured Mrs Clinton to a considerable extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:23 PM

Sorry Mr McG, on re-reading I see you were actually quoting Mr Moore.

Not really a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:38 PM

"Jim, anyone who claims that Mr Farage is "inarticulate", does not deserve a response."
Her's a fuckinb' joke
His entire policy is based on hate and distrust of a large section of the British population - any moron can do that.
A success - a political leader who ahs lost the seats he gaing, rules over a party based on a policy hate and distrust directed at foreigners, where two of its leading members try to kick the shit out of each other.
It's a crying shame that Charlie Chaplin isn't around any more - he could have reissued The Great Dictator annd baseed it on the last six months in Britain and America.
The one positive thing to come out of this discussion is that it's drawn the closet Fascists out into the open - welcome to daylight Ake.
In my fairly long life, I've experienced vigorous, dishonest and bitterly-fought elections, but I have never - not ever experienced any like these last two - based entirely on hate and xenophobia.
How ******* depressing to see a country I loved degenerate into what it has become in six short months - and will now follow H.M.V. like Nipper did before it
I don't know who the OPs think they are, but they are far, far up the food-cain than people like yourself - they have my respect - you have my utter contempt.
And still the Trumpeters don't attempt to contradict teh piece of detritus that has been elected into The White House - that is what they wanted and that is what they got
Where did I put the aspirin and gin bottle!!
Maybe not - let's stay around and watch the Games.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 09:10 PM

the vehicle to achieve the change

Ake, once again, you simply confirm that you haven't the faintest idea what the fu*k you're talking about.

Which "change" is that? The "change" to a racist, white-supremecist, Islamaphobic, misogynist, sexual predator, corrupt, tax-evading AmeriKKKa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 11:53 PM

It's taken longer than 6 months. "we want our country back" 10 years ago. The early success of Hitler came with a zero criticism policy.
If you complain about the alt right today you are called alt left. Irrational fascism and racism is older than Genghis Kahn. Older than Cro Magnon and Neanderthal. If might makes right we would have not evolved smaller jaws and larger craniums.

The new Nazi wears a wary smile. They won't need cattle cars and camps.
An apartheid America is the dream of the KKK, Eugenics and militia-ized white nationalists. Many whites who are by-standers will gladly trade a job or authority for alt right ideology they will drink the kool aid, wear the hat, armband or colored shirt.

Collusion Corruption & Cash aka Trump 'kids' are being given national Security clearances and an all seeing blind trust control of Trump corporations.

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
I already see 'good people' being silent about this fascist take over while they claim they don't believe my theories.
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

This is a new era, Trump BASHERS will now be sued, or worse.
The media has done such a bang up job so far, how will they react when the select villains are separated from their career like Dan Rather.

Blood lines, ethnic purity, white supremacy are old slave owning terms that are going to make a resurgence. The Constitution was written when these terms were not considered Un American but still rode heavy on the conscience of some founding fathers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 02:56 AM

Steve Shaw - 14 Nov 16 - 11:49 AM

"Well it seems that Hillary has won the popular vote by millions"


Well it seems like Shaw is wrong again - she won the popular vote by less than 1 million (671,246 to be exact). Only 58.1% of the electorate turned out, Clinton got 47.8% of the votes of the 58.1% of the electorate who voted, Trump got 47.3% of the votes of the 58.1% of the electorate who voted. Yet somehow as far as the EU Referendum goes 52% of the 72.1% turn out is not good enough Hypocrite.

"The point is that to discuss the rights and/or wrongs of an unrelated incident from the Vietnam war and the particular actions or non-actions of a senator in that conflict has sweet FA to do with the thread." - Will Fly

Hardly unrelated Will in threads concerning two successive US Presidential elections Donuel has made reference to and accusations of things related to two candidates that have never damn well happened - I am utterly amazed that you have proved unable to join those dots up and make the connection for yourself.

"Dave the Gnome - 14 Nov 16 - 05:52 PM

"I find it almost beyond comprehension that anyone who claims political awareness could be so easily fooled by a politician blatantly pandering to populist policies."


Why Gnome? - You support Corbyn don't you?

"Perhaps then you can explain to me why these supposed "kind, decent people" would support a a racist, white-supremecist, Islamaphobe, misogynist, corrupt, tax-evading, confidence man(Trump University), sexual predator congenital lying sack of garbage." - Greg.F

I would have thought that the answer to that one Greg was obvious. They looked at the alternative candidate and decided that she was worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:17 AM

If anyone is any doubt as to my position regarding any politician, including Jermey Corbyn, I would draw their attention to my previous statement mentioning him. I reservedly support his policies but as he has yet to be in a position to implement any of them I cannot say whether he is of the same ilk as all other politicians. I hope not.

From Date: 11 Nov 16 - 05:48 AM

I know a lot of people will disagree and, if I am honest, I have yet to be convinced myself but Corbyn looks to be the best bet for this type of change in the UK. Sanders looked to be the same in the US and, hopefully, both of those or similar candidates will prove their worth in 4 years time.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:22 AM

In the interests of fairness I must qualify my previous statement and say that I do not know what sort of policies Trump will implement either so I do not know whether he is simply pandering to populist policies or whether he will implement any of his more extreme promises. Again, I hope not.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:35 AM

Of course it bears pointing out that Greg and his ilk will play the morality card when it suits them . We're it their candidate they would be boldly condemning moralists ! And I would question whether trump is racist too. I don't know if his projected policies on emigration are the best thing , but I can see the reasoning behind it . As to islamophobic ! Thus speaks the raving christophobe !


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:40 AM

"Ake, once again, you simply confirm that you haven't the faintest idea what the fu*k you're talking about."
I'm afraid he does Steve - hi dream team won the Presidency.
"Well it seems like Shaw is wrong again"
QAnd another ultra-right blusters onto the rostrum.
" You support Corbyn don't you?"
Can't recall Corbyn advocating grabbing womens' genitals whenever it took your fancy
Weren't you in the front line, trying to pin misogyny and antisemitism on the Labour Party not too long ago?
Now you're rooting for a racist, anti-semitic misogynist who advocates sexual assault as acceptable behaviour.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:45 AM

Well we'll see won't we, Teribus? Large numbers of votes in strong Clinton territory have yet to be included in the tally. Washington, Oregon, California. She is going to win the popular vote by a margin that is going to look uncomfortable for number-shouters such as your good self.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:52 AM

Not so JOM - as far as I am concerned Hillary Clinton got 61,047,207 votes and Trump got 60,375,962 votes which to my mind in a two horse race means that Hillary Clinton won the 2016 US Presidential Election.

Using exactly the same reasoning 17,410,742 voters in the UK voted for the UK to leave the EU and 16,141,241 voters in the UK voted to remain in the EU, which to my mind in a two horse race means that it is the wish of the voters in the UK that the UK leaves the EU.

Give people a choice and a means to express it then abide by the result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:09 AM

"Large numbers of votes in strong Clinton territory have yet to be included in the tally. Washington, Oregon, California."

Votes still to be included? Really Shaw?

Washington State - Hillary Clinton 1,221,435; Donald Trump 835,385
Oregon State - Hillary Clinton 934,631; Donald Trump 742,506
California - Hillary Clinton 6,191,799; Donald Trump 3,287,273

Those were the number of votes cast for those two candidates in those three states Shaw so what other votes have to be counted?

The US Electoral College follows the declared wishes of the majority vote in each state. As Clinton had already won those states any mythical additional votes that you refer to would make no difference whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:13 AM

"Give people a choice and a means to express it then abide by the result."
The people elected a fascist, misogynist, antisemitic hate-monger who advocates womens' genitals into office - and we should be happy with that?
Your contempt for "the people" has been palpable in the past - lazy, scrounging, no-marks who brought Britain to its knees and should have no say in their lives - now we have two elections that have been won based on xenophobia and race hatred and all of a sudden their word counts for something.
As I said - Germany elected the Nazis into office - mind you, Britain respected that decision until it was too late to do anything about it - and then, yet another bloodbath - this time accompanied by the smell of Zyklon-B.
I remind you again - you were one of those desperately trying to pin antisemitism and misogyny on the Labour Party - now you are rooting for an antisemitic misogynist who tells men it's o.k. to sexually assault women,
Your particular Poad to damascus has been a very short one.
America has elected a Fascist into office, Britain will follow him like the poodle she has always been and Fascist parties throughout the world are taking comfort from this result.
"JOM"
Always a sign that the confidence is on the wane!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:16 AM

Whoops - inadvertently deleted a bit - should read:
"who advocates it's ok for men to grab womens' genitals, into office"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:50 AM

When you said advocates women's genitals into office, Jim, I thought you were being euphemistic about members of Trump's team!

Wonder whether Teribus and co will be calling for an antisemitism enquiry into Trump and his team. After all Keith and Teribus have said about the Labour Party, it would be highly hypocritical not to, wouldn't it?

Once again, the notion that our referendum is precisely equivalent to a presidential election needs to be challenged. In fact, as horse races, both contest were unfair, but for different reasons. In the US it doesn't matter who passes the post first. It's all about how many fences your hooves caught on the way. In the U.K., the two-horse race was set up so that one horse was allowed to run on the flat whereas the other one was forced to jump fences.

Still, in one post Teribus admits that Hillary won the election. I suppose he has to do that in order to defend the referendum result, for which he likes to shout out the absolute numbers. By the same reckoning, Hillary is well home and dry. How can he possibly say otherwise! But in the next post he seems to be clinging to the outrageously-unfair electoral college system as justification for Trump's "victory.". Difficult conundrum, innit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 05:28 AM

I don't exactly think that Greg is a "Christophobe," Pete, any more then I am (nice word, by the way!) Can't speak for Greg, but a lot of the things that Jesus allegedly said (or was it a committee...) make a fair amount of sense, though in some other regards he got things arse about face, like telling people that they shouldn't worry about tomorrow, or that they should give all their stuff away, or that they should not only not fight back when they're being beaten to pulp but that they should invite their aggressor to beat them up even more. And we like the story about his miraculously changing water to wine, when we know full well that he actually sneaked out the back door to the offie just like everybody else would have done. An antisemite hates Jews because they are Jews. An Islamophobe hates Muslims because they are Muslims. Christians come in all colours, styles, shapes and sizes so we can't really hate them all as a piece. We can hate what's been done in the name of Christianity, of course. Can't help feeling that Jesus would have been right with us there. You need to invent a different -ophobe name, Pete!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 06:03 AM

"I thought you were being euphemistic about members of Trump's team!"
What - me - sexist.
Wouldn't be so insulting to my favourite gender.
" don't exactly think that Greg is a "Christophobe,"
These people fave a problem distinguishing between the loving religion that they claim to adhere to but seldom do, and the organisation that has condoned and even facilitated the mess-rape of children in its care
If we had a few more real 'Christians' around the world would be a beter place - mind you, Your Man would almost certainly find himself accused of promoting terrorism and end up on an indefinite holiday in the sun in Guantanamo.
I spent a large part of my life recording real Christians - they left more of an influence on what I am than any church I've been inside of
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 07:19 AM

I am not sure I have come across Christophobes here myself. Plenty who criticise all religion, of course, and some of those criticise Christianity more than the other religions because they know more about it, or it is more prevalent in their world, or it is pushing some policial or social agenda under the name of Christianity, but no one seems to me to be specialising, as it were. Now in the wider world, yes, people are being killed because they are of one religion sect by members of another, but it has never been exclusively in one direction.


And as a practising Christian there is plenty of stuff being pushed by Christian groups that I find the antithesis of my understanding of the Christian message. So I find myself agreeing with Steve or Greg perhaps more often than they might think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 07:39 AM

Oh, I think I already knew that. Could be that either you or I (I'm not sayin') is akin to the great Brian Clough. He said that, when dealing with a player who disagrees, "We talk about it for twenty minutes and then we decide I was right."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 08:04 AM

You knew I agree with you more than you thought? I need a stiff drink to sort that one out.

Going back to the thread topic: the electoral college system seems outdated to me as the problems it was designed to solve have changed into others. Nevertheless for them to vote in favour of Hillary even if constitionally possible would be a significant step towards a civil war (or extreme civil unrest) So we can be fairly confident it won't happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 08:45 AM

The American right generally seems to be keen in the idea that, in regard to to constitutional matters, the intentions of the "founding fathers" ought to determine things.

If the electoral college stopped Trump becoming president, it would be doing what the "founding fathers" intended it to do, overule a choice by the electorate which the electoral college decided was stupid.

Ergo...


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 09:37 AM

Because I'm from the UK I don't know much about the Electoral College. Is it open to pecuniary persuasion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:54 AM

A bit cheeky changing the wording of what you said, DMcG! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

Not intentionally :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:30 PM

The "morality card"????

We're[sic] it their candidate they would be boldly condemning moralists !

pete, its difficult for me to believe that you are as much of an idiot as you obviously are if you can make that statement, claim to be a Christian, and can then defend a lying, racist, white-supremecist, Islamaphobic, misogynist, sexual predator, corrupt, tax-evading, swindler, multiple divorceé and all around despicable excuse for a human being.

"Christophobe"? I don't hate Christ in the least (seems all in all a good fellow all 'round, unlike Trump), any more than I hate Bugs Bunny, The Tooth Fairy or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

One thing I DO hate, tho, is a sanctimonious hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:21 AM

At last some
Common Sense


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:35 AM

I find it difficult to know what to say about anyone who treats anything from the press as being factual. Even less when something from the Telegraph is branded as "Common Sense". Especialy when it contains the line heaped on The Donald's immaculately coiffured head

Not that I have anything against anyone's hairstyle and would not stoop so low as to mention anything about the way anyone looks but such comments just make a meaningless story even more ridiculous.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:12 AM

"Common Sense"
Seems like another term for appeasement to me
Can we assume that, considering the total lack of response to the descriptions of the foul programme Trump won the day on, that is what his supporters here consider to be a fit programme for the most powerful state in the world - is that really what you describe as "common sense" Ake?
Have we misjudged the man?
It really would be useful to know the type of person we are arguing with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:55 AM

I'd take that as heavy irony, Dave. .(Maybe all this stuff about American politics is affecting you in unexpected ways..)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM

The point children IS reality.

Mr Trump WILL be the US president. We WILL leave the EU.

Is it possible for "liberals" to be pragmatic?

We must find ways of working with the new US administration even if by our stupidity and lack of foresight, we have made that so difficult and embarrassing.

We must ensure
good trade deals with other European countries by keeping our negotiating position secret for the moment, until article 50 is instigated.

We must stop whining because "liberal" ideology is being rejected all over the developed world and work for a society where CLASS inequality is addressed, rather than the smokescreen of sexual orientation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

"you children" "We must We must"

you used to be moderately but tolerably ignorant.

Now you are just thoroughly arrogant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:06 PM

Those are indeed highly probable predictions. But the conclusions you drw from them are open to question.

We have indeed to work with the new US, in the same sense that we have to work with Putin's Russia, with Iran, and with Zimbabwe. The relationship should be one if cautious courtesy, rather than frieendship. That should be reserved for the peoples of those countries.

As for negotiating our way out of the EU, there can be no logic to the suggestiin that there is any point in keeping our initial negotiating position secret, since as soon as negotiations commence it will be revealed. Our final negotiating position, if that is different, is another matter, since once this is revealed it becomes the starting position.

There might be something to be said in favour of a take-it-or leave it approach to negotiations instead.

And there is a great deal to be said for giving people a chance to say whether they agree with this, if it is in any way different from the total break which appears to be that which seems to be implied by "Brexit is Brexit".


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:08 PM

We must ensure good trade deals with other European countries

And that is the heart of the problem. Who gets to define what 'good' looks like?   Just about all of the proponents of Leave had a different set of priorities and trade-offs, and as far as we can tell, those responsible for sorting it still do.

The judges have ruled that Parliament has a say in the definition of 'good', not just the government. That is pretty much all they said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

" rather than the smokescreen of sexual orientation."

Oh fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:23 PM

"The point children IS reality."
It is a reality we' don't have to accept - let alone welcome, as you have.
If Governments had opposed Hitler, there would have been a lot less dead Jews.
If the world had opposed Assad he wouldn't have been able to massacre his people and we would not be fighting Isis.
Your "pragmatism" is support by appeasement.
Trump is a fascist thug and your friend Farage helped him risde to power - making him a supporter of fascist thuggery
Your bullshit is an indication that you support Trump's policies
Tell us Ake - WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF HIS MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:23 PM

I am not entirely sure what Brexit or sexual orientation have to do with the American presidential election. Nor do I really know what "liberals" are unless it is the neolibralism that I referred to elsewhere. I do not see how the election of Trump, based on the policies he has declared, help to achieve class equality either. Hopefully, like most other politicians, he was misleading the electorate. When he said that many low-paid manual labourers would be deported, 1.6 billion people would be banned from entering the USA on the basis of their religion and women would be reduced to the sexual playthings of rich businessmen it does nothing whatsoever for any equality.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:43 PM

Donuel - 6 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

Irrespective of how you view Akenaton Donuel at least he is not like you - i.e., someone who knowingly and deliberately spreads malicious lies about people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

It is my sad duty to report that Donald J Trump has become lost in mind and temperament. He was the finest example of a lack of character, wisdom and courage while laden with white entitlement, defensiveness and anti- Semitism. He will be missed by everyone that he owed money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:03 PM

someone who knowingly and deliberately spreads malicious lies about people.
You've just ben caught out lying through yopur teeth - about me and about WW1 soldiers.
You can't respond without insulting people, can you?
Jim Carrill


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

Is it possible to have a thread without rancour? Will we ever have a discussion that does not end in being corrupted by ignorance and bloody mindedness? Can peoples passions not be directed against the real issues instead of each other? What is the point of rhetorical questions...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:41 PM

I doubt it is irony, Kevin. This is the Telegraph we are talking about!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:11 PM

Whatever you need Teribus. I consider all your posts fake news.

Here is a gift, John McCain is perfect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:05 PM

How tedious, another thread thats lost its way in acrimony and bitternes. So many words, so little content!

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

so many uk comments about Our apology.

aphorism: When debt becomes an embarrassment of riches you can take to the bank, you are becoming just like Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:16 PM

Hey Don - Opening line of the thread

To all of our friends living outside of America;

As it addressed to those outside America and as we are America's closest European ally would you not expect most of the comments to come from the UK?

Don't understand the aphorism I'm afraid :-( But it sounds like it should be good :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 04:15 PM

Stu, Thank you for that response.

Do you really think that the issue of CLASS inequality is not hugely more important than the issue of homosexual "marriage"?

I heard an interview given by President elect Trump just before or just after his unexpected victory......about the second or third question was regarding his views on "Gay marriage", an issue which affects a very tiny minority of the population....0.004%?.

Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US.....yet it is seldom mentioned.

Real liberals would be promoting real equality within education, housing, wealth.

Someone asked me how I define "liberals" .......fucking hypocrites!...will that do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 05:11 PM

I never tire of repeating this gem from the Reverend Dodgson

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

I do wish at times though that people would either stick to what words really mean or, if it does not fit, invent one of their own.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 05:58 PM

Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US

And Trump and his cronies - who have exploited the working clas for generations - are the reason why. Get real, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 07:22 PM

"Do you really think that the issue of CLASS inequality is not hugely more important than the issue of homosexual "marriage"?"
Homosexual marriage is a done deal and has nothing whatever to do with class inequality
You have persistently attempted to turn the clock back on that done deal - you are attempting to return to sexual inequality.
You don't belieeve in class equality anyway - you have said that working people are not ready for it.
One more time Tell us Ake - WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF TRUMP'S MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
You have nort answered the question - will you do so now?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:01 PM

"Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US.....yet it is seldom mentioned."
The press has been full of the rising gap between the wealth and the poor for at least two years
2013


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Dave the gnome, regarding the aphorism, that's exactly the way I felt about it when I wrote it. Perhaps it can be fixed.

What does have substance is the repeated firing of Trump people chosen to handle the transition. After the fist meeting regarding HSS the Trump guy was fired and the soonest we will hear from them is well after Thanksgiving.

To be fair the soonest a cabinet can be assembled is 7-8 weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Ake often notes that he believes in social conservatism; what's more socially conservative than class inequality; there were "good old days" when it was pretty much enforced by law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:32 PM

Being rightwing doesn't in any way reduce the instinct to irony that is so characteristic of this country, Dave. And contempt towards Trump appears to be every bit as strong right across the political spectrum. Even Nigel Farage while fawning on the man seems to has considerable difficulty in concealing it.

The difference is that while the left sees him as a dangerous quasi-fascist, the right sees him more as a vulgar oaf. Both views are of course true.
...........................
It has become clear in recent years that it is quite possible to hold strongly to what can be called socially liberal views on a whole range of issues, such as gay marriage, and yet be savagely repressive on economic issues, as demonstrated by slashing benefits and attacking workers rights.   

The conservatives retain power because they have managed to set this aside in order to retain an organic link with those who disagree strongly with the socially liberal stuff, but who share the economic priorities.

This would seem to indicate that the opposite combination is also perfectly possible. There's another thread ("we all agree on all but three things") which is perhaps relevant, though more in an American context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 01:58 AM

Donuel - 16 Nov 16 - 02:11 PM

"Whatever you need Teribus. I consider all your posts fake news.

Here is a gift, John McCain is perfect."


You are perfectly at liberty to take whatever I post as you like, but I note that you have never challenged or countered the detail in any of them.

As to John McCain being perfect, I would probably doubt that, BUT he most certainly WAS NOT responsible for the deaths of 134 US sailors on the USS Forrestal as you have clearly stated

I judge your posts on that basis, you are a malicious liar who seems to persist in your lies even when confronted with evidence that proves your posts to be the lies they are. The only thing I want from you is an admission that you were in error in stating what you did about former Lt-Cdr John McCain USN and that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the fire onboard the Forrestal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:16 AM

Good points, Kevin. I know I have posted it before but, in case you did not catch it here is George Monbiot's article on neolibralism which may help make sense of your points on social and political libralism. I would recommend it elsewhere but that has already fell on deaf ears :-(

On the other point I must also say that equality of class, gender, race, religion and sexuality are not mutually exclusive as some seem to think. In fact, as most people know, it is easier to go for the 'quick win' first. If you can make 0.01% of the population feel equal to the other other 99.99% easily, then go for it. It is good practice and will help make the more major changes at a later stage.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM

Far more important than an event in a genocidal war half a century ago is, what happens now.
It will be interesting to see if Trumps Stormtroopers are proposing to target the 50,000 Irish illegally living in the U.S. in the same manner they say they are going to treat their neighboring Mexicans, and if not, how is this not going to be seen as the blatantly racist act that it is?
It will also be fascinating to see whether this shot in the arm manages to drag Farage the fascist out of the pub and onto the hustings.
Fascinating days ahead, as they all start to crawl out of the woodwork.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:47 AM

Any true socialist would know that class inequality and financial aspiration are endemic to our present economic system, social mores are not.

Social "liberalism" in the form of attacks on family values, the Church, traditional forms of parenting, open "marriages" etc, are a smokescreen which obscures any attempt to obtain genuine equality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:54 AM

If people are illegally living in any country then they must accept that fact and the very real risk of deportation with the additional penalty IIRC as far as the US authorities are concerned that the deported "illegal" has no right to apply for future visas. The above remains the same irrespective of who is President or which Political Party is in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:14 AM

Given the laws regarding deportation and the other potential dangers facing illegal immigrants it makes me wonder how desperate some people must be to risk such things. Sat in our warm cosy little worlds I think it is difficult to imagine the desperation people must feel when faced with a survival level decision. I am pretty sure that, for most at least, it is not financial aspirations but pure desperation that drives them to up sticks and risk everything. Class equality should know no national boundaries and give all the people of the world the same opportunities. I do know it is pie in the sky to even hope for that but true socialism is international and to define socialism as purely in the context of your own nation is national socialism. We all know how that ended...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:21 AM

"Social "liberalism" in the form of attacks on family values, the Church, traditional forms of parenting, open "marriages""
All created by the establishment you claim to want to replace - all should be the business of the individual and not the state.
Whatever the rights and wrong of religious belief, organised religion has been and continues to be a course or an ally of oppression and death on the planet.
More people have suffered and died in the name of one god or another than for any other single reason.
Forcing couples to live together because of some enforced mystical ceremony is the ongoing cause of suffering - mainly to women and children.
The question of "open marriage" is e
ntirely the business of those concerned; not the state and certainly not religious nut-houses or self appointed spiritual guides.
You really are an anachronism Ake and you still haven't answered my question.
WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF TRUMP'S MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
Maybe your latest offering is the answer I am seeking - you are perfectly happy with a world controlled by a fascist like Trump - despite his record of family values and his rapists view on women.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:26 AM

Gnomish Dave - what you also need to take account of is that it costs thousands of pounds per year (on average) to meet the legal requirements and if you are not a higher rate taxpayer you have to do this every two years (or up to 5 depending when you arrived). And if "they" so decide, you have I think 48hours to leave the country. The pressures for someone on minimum hours to work illegally rather than legally are huge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 06:09 AM

Indeed McG, indeed. Must be an awful thing to have to do, to risk such things to ensure that your family survive. I hope no one on here is ever faced with that decision.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 06:38 AM

Jim, Mr Trump will not be ruling "the world", he will not even be ruling America, he has been elected President of the US, not Supreme ruler.
I do not see Mr Trump as a Fascist and he is no more a racist than any of us who protest unregulated or illegal immigration.
Regarding charges of misogyny, he apparently encourages the advancement of women in his business practices.
The "pussygate" remarks although crude, referred to the nature of celebrity and how sexuality may be used by some people to gain access.

I think you are like an old 78 stuck in the groove, try to put a bit of thought into your contributions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 07:01 AM

Regarding charges of misogyny, he apparently encourages the advancement of women in his business practices.

It doesn't work that way, ake. People are not consistent, so for things like misogyny we tend to say a person is misogynist if some of their acts are, not all of them. That means you cannot show a person is not racist or misogynist or is unselfish by looking at examples where they are; the label is acquired by examples where they aren't.

And no, I don't think Pussygate was about an abstract intellectual debate about the effects of celebrity; it was about what he as an individual felt entitled to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:16 AM

I think you are like an old 78 stuck in the groove, try to put a bit of thought into your contributions

Right back atcha, Ake! Rigght back atcha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:38 AM

Trump was not talking out how "some people" behaved. He was talking about how he behaved.

The question of whether Trump is personally particularly racist is not really the point. It has been credibly suggested that Oswald Mosley was not himself antisemitic. But he set out to appeal to antisemitism, and to encourage it and exploit it. And that is what Trump has done with racism.

I rather think that if he had been in a situation where he saw anti-racism as a winning card, he'd have played that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:45 AM

You've put your finger on one of the many problems with Trump, Kevin;
he would, and WILL, play ANY card, however revolting or illegal or whatever for self-aggrandizement.

Stay tuned......


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:55 AM

"Mr Trump will not be ruling "the world"
His bein elected witll affect the world - horrendously if he is allowed to proceed in the way he wants to
Hitler never 'ruled the world' but his been elected could have ruined it - it caused an awful lot of deaths.
"I do not see Mr Trump as a Fascist"
Of ycourse you don't - you appear to not see yourself as one, but, as with Trump, your outlook on life makes you one.
"he apparently encourages the advancement of women in his business practices."
If they are nice looking with big tits.
He actually advocated grabbing women by the fanny if it took your fancy - or did you miss that one - Trump's misogyny is beyond question, as is his racism
"I think you are like an old 78 stuck in the groove"
And I firmly believe you to be a fascist who is prepared to appease fascism
Thank you for finally confirming my opinion, as long as it took.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:56 AM

The fact the alt-right are happy to defend the normalisation of Trump, sexual assault and racism speaks volumes about their own characters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 07:42 PM

If only it was just "the alt-right" that is starting to act as if Trump isn't really all that bad. The Tory leadership is moving into position. They may despise him, but that won't stop them from fawning upon him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 08:04 PM

Get real, the man is president of the USA.....if the Labour Party were in power, they would behave in exactly the same way.....perhaps worse, have we already forgotten the relationship between Mr Blair and Mr Bush......but that was only a war, not the shock horror of "Pussygate"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 08:22 PM

Everything you've heard about the trump transition 'team' is true.
We've had two so far and both were fired with no new prospects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 09:12 PM

"His bein elected witll affect the world - horrendously if he is allowed to proceed in the way he wants to"

There you have it folks - The Voice of People - Ha spoken.

Whatever you do, do not contradict him, because should you have the temerity to do so you will be accused of being every "...ist" in existence and guilty of every "...ism" you can think of.

The self declared "Voice of the People" by the way is a bigoted, Anglophobic, whingeing, tooth-sucking, scouse git who wishes that he had actually been born an Irishman - but he wasn't - oh dear, how sad, never mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 03:30 AM

Another one bites the dust


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 04:56 AM

"if the Labour Party were in power, they would behave in exactly the same way"
The Labour party aren't a hate-filled, racist, antisemitic, racist party
Are you going to explain why Trump isn't any of these things instead of blindly supporting him?
No?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 07:41 AM

Jim, I don't respond to mindless rants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM

Oh bugger! I just have!....you crafty old ranter :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 09:06 AM

President Lying Sack. Get used to it, white "middle class".


Donald Trump Takes Credit for Helping to Save a Ford Plant That Wasn't Closing

By BINYAMIN APPELBAUMNOV. 18, 2016


WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump claimed credit on Thursday night for persuading Ford to keep an automaking plant in Kentucky rather than moving it to Mexico. The only wrinkle: Ford was not actually planning to move the plant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/us/politics/donald-trump-takes-credit-for-helping-to-save-a-ford-plant-that-wasnt-closing.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 09:54 AM

"Jim, I don't respond to mindless rants."
You seem to have picked up your vocabulary from your bullying friend Teribus - is there nothing original about you?
My arguments may be wrong, but they are neither mindless nor are they rants.
You have been asked direct questions - you refuse to answer.
You have been presented with documented facts, you refuse to respond
Much easier to pass them off as "mindless rants."
Try again; in the face of all the evidence, why do you deny that Trump is a misogynist?
Can't be that difficult.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM

The world's awash with misogynists and misandrists, depending on how they feel.... just handy words to form clichés.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 11:45 AM

"just handy words to form clichés."
A coward's non-answer Ake
I ask again - how do you jusify your claiming that Trump is not a misogynist
Did he not suggest it was OK to grab womens' genitals
Is this your idea of a non-mosogynist world leader
The more refuse to answer this, the clearer is your answer so I don't mind either way
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 01:29 PM

What's old is new again.......

TAILGUNNER JOE TRUMP and Roy Cohn Gingrich.

Wait for it.... soon playing in a Congress near you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 01:44 PM

Depends on what you mean by "the Labour Party in power", aken. I doubt if Jeremy Corbyn would fawn on Trump, but I have no doubt at all that his opponents in the party would.

There's no point in getting all hot under the collar about Trump, but that doesn't mean business as normal. It's as if America has contracted a dangerous and contagious disease. You don't want to get too close to it, but you don't indulge in hate or hostility either. They"ll get over it in time, but there's nothing we can do to hasten the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 04:02 PM

I strongly suggest that anyone who has any doubt as to the stupidity of this election heed the words of Paul Krugan. I suggest you look him up. I am not appealing to authority here. Just pointing out that if someone as qualified as Krugman is can make such a statement, we would be foolish not to take it seriously.

A lot of people in politics and the media are scrambling to normalize what just happened to us, saying that it will all be OK and we can work with Trump. No, it won't, and no, we can't. The next occupant of the White House will be a pathological liar with a loose grip on reality; he is already surrounding himself with racists, anti-Semites, and conspiracy theorists; his administration will be the most corrupt in America history.

How did this happen? There were multiple causes, but you just can't ignore the reality that key institutions and their leaders utterly failed. Every news organization that decided, for the sake of ratings, to ignore policy and barely cover Trump scandals while obsessing over Clinton emails, every reporter who, for whatever reason — often sheer pettiness — played up Wikileaks nonsense and talked about how various Clinton stuff "raised questions" and "cast shadows" is complicit in this disaster. And then there's the FBI: it's quite reasonable to argue that James Comey, whether it was careerism, cowardice, or something worse, tipped the scales and may have doomed the world.

No, I'm not giving up hope. Maybe, just maybe, the sheer awfulness of what's happening will sink in. Maybe the backlash will be big enough to constrain Trump from destroying democracy in the next few months, and/or sweep his gang from power in the next few years. But if that's going to happen, enough people will have to be true patriots, which means taking a stand.

And anyone who doesn't — who plays along and plays it safe — is betraying America, and mankind.


Shudder.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 05:56 PM

There are celebrities who exploit women for sex, there are women who use their sexuality to manipulate, and gain money or power.

Which is worse .....I don't know, but neither should have any bearing on this debate.....many politicians and for that matter Presidents, were sexual predators. Kennedy and Clinton being relatively recent examples.

The real point is that Social "liberalism" and Economic Globalism, have written huge sectors of society out of history and left them completely unrepresented and unheard.   "Well you can hear them now" as Mr Farage famously said.

I have understood that for decades society and politics in developed countries have been in decline....and I have said that there is a movement going on, a backlash against "liberal" elitism and Globalisation personified by establishment politicians the media and commentators. As I said previously the only way this movement can progress is if it is led by a populist of the right who can motivate the usually silenced majority.....If the left do not accept this reality and attempt to mould a decent society from the wreckage of the last couple of decades.....then the future is indeed bleak


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 06:12 PM

'The real point' of this thread is to discuss the US President elect surely? The whole premise of the debate started as an apology from two US citizens for appointing Donald Trump. If people wish to try to turn it to air their pet soundbites that is up to them but they do so at the risk of certain ridicule and probable censure for doing so.

If anyone believes that Donald Trump or Nigel Farage are the answer, then I am pretty sure they do not understand the question. Anyone supporting either of these two caricatures whilst still purporting to be on the left wing cannot have a complete grip on either politics or reality.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 07:17 PM

The "liberal elite" are the biggest and most dangerous caricature of all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 08:15 PM

Let's hear it for Jonathan Greenblatt:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/jewish-activist-vows-solidarity-muslims-161118165023701.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 08:51 PM

My country just committed suicide. I predict a recession within a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 10:23 PM

Kendal we are in uncharted territory. A year may be too soon for protectionist policies to trigger a recession.

The grieving process is almost over as people are negotiating or already in acceptance.

For the last 9 months I harped (like a repetitive arpeggio ) that facts don't matter as long as long as Trump uses feelings and hatreds.
I would say it was like hypnosis but I don't think people understood.

So in reality it is only the Republicans that listen to me.
So I will now work for Trump. All hail Trump. Trump all the way.

Mike Flynn
may be the enemy within
but Russian TV
is like MSNBC

Jeff Sessions is not a racist he is only a standard bearer for traditions of the south. We must restore law and order and take our country back again.

Steve Bannon is a cannon
that will blow up
you know who.


B====   * bang --immigrants----muslims--jews--catholics--blacks-- >
B'


Trump is the bullet that keeps on giving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 09:44 AM

Jeff Sessions as Attorney General: An Insult to Justice
NOV. 18, 2016

In 1986, President Ronald Reagan nominated Jeff Sessions, then a United States attorney from Alabama, to be a federal judge. The Republican-controlled Senate rejected Mr. Sessions out of concern, based on devastating testimony by former colleagues, that he was a racist.

Three decades later, Mr. Sessions, now a veteran Alabama senator, is on the verge of becoming the nation's top law-enforcement official, after President-elect Donald Trump tapped him on Friday to be attorney general.

It would be nice to report that Mr. Sessions, who is now 69, has conscientiously worked to dispel the shadows that cost him the judgeship. Instead, the years since his last confirmation hearing reveal a pattern of dogged animus to civil rights and the progress of black Americans and immigrants.

Forget about aggressive protection of civil rights, and of voting rights in particular. Mr. Sessions has called the Voting Rights Act of 1965 a "piece of intrusive legislation." As a federal prosecutor, Mr. Sessions brought voter-fraud charges against three civil rights workers trying to register black voters in rural Alabama. The prosecution turned up 14 allegedly doctored ballots out of 1.7 million cast, and the jury voted to acquit.

He also, during the campaign, endorsed the idea of a ban on Muslim immigrants.


Continued:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/opinion/jeff-sessions-as-attorney-general-an-insult-to-justice.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM

We have had legalized segregation before. We have had internment camps for Japanese Americans. Are Muslims too good to be relocated?
We have had suspension of habeas corpus. We have suspended Congress before. We have had The Indian Wars in which history has been successfully rewritten. We even had the war of Northern Aggression for a short time.

Seldom do we have a chance for a do over or second coming in policy.
AS long as the new administration can maintain a respectful fear, the citizens will remain silent as everything old is new again.


It is important everyone feels a divisiveness. A distinction will be made between old moldy laws and new fresh start laws. Finally a clear interpretation of the 1st 2nd, 5th and 14th amendments will make whites free again.

News will be made from the ground up. Fake news will be great news again. Perception is reality and the new reality will be more than fair and balanced. FKE News is real. Fear is real and so is revenge.


Examples will be made. Some in public and some in secret because it is obviously better to be feared than respected. So please sign the loyalty pledge to the President. United we stand, divided you fall.
You will be safe as long as you obey the Silent Patriot Rule. The power of the new USA depends upon it.

In time Greg and Bearded Bruce will walk hand in hand together.
In Silence Unity. In Bribery prosperities. In revenge Freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM

In time Greg and Bearded Bruce will walk hand in hand together.

Not in this galaxy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM

Justifying that one danger is OK because you believe another one is more so is both fallacious and dangerous in itself.

Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are both dangerous. Trump more so because he is now in a position of great power. Hopefully he will employ Farage as an advisor to get him out of our hair :-)

If you believe that something is more dangerous, fine, carry on believing that. But do not make the mistake of ignoring the threat that really does exist.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 08:03 PM

Behold the power of the dark side.
There is a place for everyone. Become a red shirt and earn a stipend
Volunteer for glory in the armed service that is great again.
There are jobs for everyone again. We are all great fans of huge wars.
Along with our Brexit brothers ethnic purity will reign. Ake the merciless shall punish the meek What do we have to lose except for all the dark parasites that began to hollow out America like a rotten tooth. We shall shred our enemies like cheese. We will make America Grate again. Soon everyone shall know a great Ake where ther heart used to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 03:40 AM

Once again the absence of like button comes to mind!

Well done, Donuel :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 10:37 AM

Well Done?...for an incoherent personal attack. I wondered how long it would take for Dave to revert to type.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 11:58 AM

No personal attack involved at all. Simply some clever puns. I suggest that anyone who thinks Donuels post was a personal attack re-reads it. Saying it was incoherent could well be an attack on the post and/or those who understood it but I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are just on a different wavelength.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 12:29 PM

Oh, but if anyone feels that I have personally attacked them, I unreservedly apoligise. Let me know what you feel the attack is and I shall try to avoid it in future.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, but new thoughts keep occurring. If the post was incoherent, how can anyone know it was a personal attack?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:28 PM

Of course whatever he does now will be criticised by one extreme or the other, but I reckon the haters on here are willing him to fail!

Nailed your colours to the mast finally. Haters? Yes. Your religion is rubbish. You are a posing liar. I said this years ago, when you were posing as a naive christian. One extreme or the other? YOU ARE THE EXTREME.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 05:02 PM

It took me a while but I got there! In case anyone else is wondering Paul is referring to this post. I think!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 09:40 PM

Be accurate in your complaints, aken. Donuel's post there was far from "incoherent".


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:58 AM

The part of Don's post which referred to me , I found incoherent.

I don't mind reading people's musings, but personal comments should be backed up by some sort of validation.

i.e."Soon everyone shall know a great Ake where ther heart used to be."......."Ake the merciless shall punish the meek"

What absolute nonsense. I was of course quite willing to ignore it until a cheerleading troll popped up.

What is the point of this sort of nonsense, can the left not come up with something more relevant to the crisis which we face all over Western developed nations?
I have yet to hear any left wing solution to the problems created by Globalism ......how are we going to construct a proper society within the current framework?   Insulting people is no sort of answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:38 AM

I find it amazing that the few Trump supporters here refuse to respond to what the man has said about himeself and his own beliefs.
He is an all-but-declared racist, an open misogynist who regards women as available meat for the pleasure of men, his policy on Climate Change is ecological suicide for the planet, he is a practicing hate-monger and he has appointed a Jew-hater into office.....
The best defence for this I have heard so far is that he may not carry any of this out - doesn't alter on iota the thug at the top who has been elected into office.
How about letting us here if that's what his supported want for America and the world?
Nice to see the extremists tumbling out of their closets though - hope you brought your sunglassed Ake!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:40 AM

I don't mind reading people's musings, but personal comments should be backed up by some sort of validation.

Only to be followed by

I was of course quite willing to ignore it until a cheerleading troll popped up.

And then

Insulting people is no sort of answer.

I am certainly not going to get into any exchange of insults but I feel obliged to both point out the hypocrisy of the above post and defend myself from the scurrilous accusations cast. Not that I should need to justify myself but in this case i think the record needs to be set straight.

My like of Donuel's post was for the clever pun used 'A great Ake (ache) where the heart used to be'. I am very surprised if anyone really took offense at his post and I strongly suspect that the poster in question is simply using it as an excuse to justify a personal attack on myself. As we aware, such attacks are not permitted on Mudcat so that post should really be deleted, as have others before, but I am willing to let it remain as an example of what not to do.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:52 AM

"nonsense, can the left not come up with"
A further step out of the closet, after protesting about being accused of referring to "Lefties|" - wrongly last time, but maybe somebody is faking Ake's postings now!!
Your slip is showing Ake - being "socialist" as you claim, is being left by definition - you are an extremist right-winger - no socialist, by any efinition, can be that.
The term must come from the same dictionary that you got your "liberal" from.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:14 AM

Nothing inconsistent in what I write Jim, I am a socialist who believes in changing the economic system, you are a "liberal who thinks the lot of our people can be improved within the present economic framework.

Latest news, Capitalism cannot be reformed, you either allow it to run efficiently or scrap it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:30 AM

" I am a socialist who believes in changing the economic system"
No 'Socialist' attacked the left as you have - it would be an indication of schizophrenia
"you are a "liberal who thinks the lot of our people can be improved within the present economic framework.
"That is not liberalism" -
Every socialist movement in history has fought for a betterment of conditions within the system as well as advocating a chenge in the system - Marx. Lenin, Trotsky. Gallagher, Gollan. Palme Dutt, Rothstein..... every single one.
Of course Capitalism cannot be reformed, but it doesn't mean you don't fight against its worst aspects while it exists - thatis tantamount tooing s.f.a. and giving it permission to take us wherever it wants us to go.
Your support for every reactionary right wing aspect of this society, from forcing refugees to wear armbands to deporting those refugees, right throug to your hatred of social minorities, particularly homosexuals makes it clear what foot you kick with.
Your support for Trump makes you a fascist, and your refusal to respond to his stated policies makes you a cowardly fascist.
Know thyself - you are no more a socialist than your new friend, Donald T.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's exactly what you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:44 AM

Methinks we may see a few French people apologising soon.

Marine Le Pen mightier than the sordid!

It is a global symptom of something, I can't fully put my finger on. I do blame global warming - or global weirding & the devastation it generates. Add in social media, and its abuse by agenda driven activists. But there must be other stimuli converging to create these interesting times we are living in. Bankers, that's it, we MUST blame the bankers. No analysis is complete without that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:46 PM

Le Pen ptwo ! I spit in her general direction. Always have. Always will.



Incoherence is relative. The less you know about a subject matter the more incoherent it will seem to you. You will never get the jokes.

Actually it is very difficult for human beings to be deliberately incoherent. Pathological incoherence is not deliberate.

Look what you do to google when you type in an incoherent phrase like twirl in the nabe. It latches onto a known word and scatters from there.


Which weighs more, a Fermion, a Hooperon or a WIMP?
I think a dark matter boson weighs more.

Just because we are not sure of the answer does not make the question incoherent.

Personally I find the Harlow-McGrath-Carrol debates incoherent, until they are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:52 PM

Another like from me. Or is it a ten from Len?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:48 PM

"Capitalism cannot be reformed, you either allow it to run efficiently or scrap it"

Reformed isn't the correct word for dealing with capitalism. It is utterly incapable of self regulation so it's up to governments to ensure they act responsibly and if necessary hold them to account.

Nice to see that the alt-right under May is now going to lower corporation tax for the corporate elite and was lying about having workers on the board. Meanwhile, in the US Trump is going to be a part-time president as he uses the position to further his business interests. Anti-establishment? The billionaire corporatist is already lining his own pocket and lining up his own family to help run the US.

This is why capitalism should be regulated; now we have a hard right billionaire and member of the global elite as the most powerful person on the planet. He will NOT help those who voted for him, and the Brexiteers are deluded if they think they're going to get a better life with their tory pals in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:56 PM

Thoughtful observation on Brexit by Michéal Martin - not a man I would readily take ac cue from (apart from his Christ-like achievement of making Irish pubs smoker-free zones).

MARTIN CRITICISES BREXIT BRAND OF NATIONALISM
FF Leader calls for greater urgency to tackle Britain's departure from EU
We will not join them in their right-wing ideology
TIM O'BRIEN

Micheál Martin has claimed Ireland will not fall into the trap of "backward-looking nationalism" as the British did over Brexit.
Vowing the Irish "are not going to join the English in their desire to repeal the 20th century", the Fianna Fáil leader used the occasion of the commemoration of former IRA man and later government minister Seán Moylan yesterday to claim "a hard Brexit is already under way".
Mr Martin said Britain had become "suspicious of outsiders and committed to the historically false idea that you don't need strong international bodies to secure lasting cooperation and prosperity between nations".
"We will not join them in their right-wing ideology of trade rules with no social dimension and no enforceable laws," he said.
But he also acknowledged Brexit could be tough on Irish industries which rely on Britain as a key export market.
He called for the EU to allow Ireland to suspend rules on State aid to support industries which take a hit as a result of Brexit.
"In the five months since the UK's Brexit vote the only things which are clear are that their policy is a shambles and that it is already causing real damage on this island. Brexit is not something which is happening in two [years' time], it is happening now."
Mr Martin said Ireland desperately needed a new urgency and ambition in Government to deal with the fallout of Brexit and other rising threats internationally.
"The unprecedented decline in sterling may soon be followed by new barriers to trade," he said. "We can't stand by and;let this slow-motion crash happen."
Mr Martin said the Irish nationalism evident in the commemorations held this year was "open and generous".
"[The events] respected diversity and promoted the idea of reconciliation," he said.
He said, the people of Ireland had shown "how to look to the past in order to help understand who we are and to draw inspiration for our future".
"This has been a powerful testimony to the fact that patriotism can be the mark of an inclusive, modern republic.
"At this grave, dark moment in world affairs we should never stop reminding ourselves of the republican spirit which has defined our modern history and should de¬fine how we face the future."

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:31 PM

I think that it is pretty much known now that communism did not work. It suffered from the same issues as capitalism in that it benefited the ruling elite far more than the proletariat. There are benefits to both systems but they must both be tempered with something else. What do we do? Responsibly controlled capitalism? Communism with consumer control? I really don't know and, as that is one of the questions that has been worrying the top economic minds for centuries, I don't think it is going to be solved by soap box politicians on a folk music forum.

In my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:27 PM

Capitalism is regulated. The pendulum swings from highly regulated stability to free swinging exploitation crashes.

example- 1940 to gilded age

An America POV.


Donald Trump is as American as store bought apple pie.
Subject to discrimination, never as good as home made and customers agree the pie is a poor imitation of the real thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 06:02 PM

TRUMP: MAKE AMERIKKKA WHITE AGAIN !!

Jeff Sessions' Other Civil Rights Problem
By THOMAS J. SUGRUENOV. 21, 2016

In 1956, as a way to sidestep Brown v. Board of Education, Alabama voters amended the state Constitution to deprive students of a right to public education. Public support for school funding collapsed in its aftermath. By the early 1990s, huge disparities in funding separated Alabama's haves and have-nots.

Judge Eugene W. Reese of the Alabama Circuit Court found the inequitable funding unconstitutional and ordered the state to come up with a system to remedy the inequity.

Alabama Attorney General Sessions led the battle against the decision. He argued that Judge Reese had overreached. It was a familiar war cry on the segregationist right: An activist court was usurping the power of the state's duly elected officials to solve the problem on their own. Mr. Sessions was lauded by fellow Republicans for his efforts. They saw funding inequities as part of the natural order of things, not as a problem to be remedied.

Advocates of school equity cried foul. "They're asking for the last 50 years to disappear, as far as improving public education," complained C. C. Torbert, the former chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court and the lawyer for the poor districts, about Mr. Sessions and his allies. Special-education and disability organizations were especially outraged: the poorest districts could not provide even basic services to students in need. If Mr. Sessions won, he would "consign an ever-growing number of Alabama schoolchildren to an unconstitutionally inadequate and inequitable education."

Finally, in 1997, the Alabama Supreme Court upheld Judge Reese's finding that the state's educational inequity was unconstitutional. But, as Mr. Sessions (by then a senator) had hoped, the court left the remedy to the state's increasingly conservative Legislature, which made only modest changes in the state's school funding structure.

Alabama's public schools, still underfunded, still separate and unequal, ranked near the bottom nationally, stand as one of Jeff Sessions' most enduring legacies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/opinion/jeff-sessions-other-civil-rights-problem.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 06:13 PM

PS: The Alabama State Motto:

Thank God for Mississippi!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 06:48 PM

And this just in!

HEIL TRUMP! Complete with Nazi salutes!!!

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/

Ake must be proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:40 PM

Anyone got any questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:46 PM

"DARKNESS IS POWER. Dick Cheney. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we are doing"

Steve Bannon



While this quote is not exactly incoherent, it makes a better heavy metal lyric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:07 PM

By way of apology


Some people like Trump do not forgive or uh forget.
Despots often make anti defamation and treason laws to protect their name and regime. Egypt Iran, Turkey, Russia, NK, Sa are all places not to make fun of the grand poobah.

If tweets can cause strokes, Donald should avoid them.

Who knows, there coul be books about Trump's supersesitivity.

'Miss Maples and the Death Tweet.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:15 AM

I heard a comedian say that Americans shouldn't feel so bad about this election. After all, she says, countries all over the world have been electing ridiculous leaders lately.

Hey, did you hear the one about Trump suggesting that the UK should appoint Nigel Farage as its Ambassador to the United States?

Do I hear a nervous chuckle in the crowd? A slight titter, perhaps?

Should we all be putting bare-chested Putin posters up in our living rooms? I noticed nobody has suggested bare-chested posters of Trump. That would be too disgusting.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 01:53 AM

What with the alt-right rising and the protests against Trump's decision not to prosecute Hillary which was so key to his campaign, I begin to fear Trump himself could be overwhelmed by the forces he has raised. I hope that doesn't happen as the consequences would be disasterous. Which is stronger support from me for Trump than I imagined I would give.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 03:01 AM

Please, please, please take Farage away. The UK government will not appoint him ambassador. Surely you can find him work elsewhere?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 03:03 AM

I love jokes, did anybody hear the one about the Democrat president of the US who flew over to the UK and told us If we did not behave ourselves and vote the way he wanted on the EU, he would shuffle us off to the back of the queue on trade deals?

Laugh? I nearly cried.

Jokes wont cut it, the people are waking up, you guys need to grab onto the train before it leaves the station.

Sorry about the analogies..... blame Don   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 03:20 AM

'you guys need to grab onto the train before it leaves the station"

You're all right, I think many of us might stay here and get on with the job of trying to address people's concerns properly. The train is full of nazi's, science deniers, liars, hypocrites and racists and I don't fancy going on any sort of a journey with people like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 05:08 AM

I don't fancy going on any sort of a journey with people like that

Fancy or no, Hold on Tight PAL! this is going to be a bumpy ride


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 05:29 AM

Anyone heard of the book by Philip K Dick, that has now been turned into a TV series, "The man in the high castle"? It tells of a dystopian USA where the Nazis had won the war.

Could it be prophetic by any chance?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM

Good one, Stu. That train definitely ain't bound for glory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:20 AM

the people are waking up

They sure are, Ake!   HEIL TRUMP!! HEIL TRUMP!! I've seen 'em. You must be proud. Have you sent your contribution & congratulations to David Duke yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

Grab hold of that train, plain or ship.
Once aboard you will hear "Papers NOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:42 PM

you're all wrong except Mr Red(as usual).

You're going to have to help steer this train, because it's the only train for years and it's steaming into unmapped territory.

The people who used to run our two countries left on the last train, they are safely holed up in China and India.....stop all the nonsense about Fascism and realise "liberal" democracy was a sham, nobody is going to guarantee your "rights" anytime soon......get to work!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:56 PM

Ake, get a grip. We all know you haven't the vaguest understanding of the U.S. political scene.

Re-read 21 Nov 16 - 06:48 PM & 23 Nov 16 - 03:20 AM and at the very least try to pretend you can recognize reality when it bites you on the arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 12:57 PM

"unmapped territory."
Hardly unmaped
TRUMP'S RAILWAY TIMETABLE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 01:21 PM

Mr Red is indeed right. I agree, it is going to be a bumpy ride so I guess I must be right too. As is anyone else who has indicted that the next few years is going to be rough.

I am however extremely confused by the fact that someone who labels themselves a socialist and is a self professed ex member of the communist party can cheer and gloat that known the right wing, bordering on if not actualy fascist, potential dictators are gaining hold across the world. What we need now is not more right wing and neoliberal ideals but care and compassion from politicians, businessmen and ordinary people who should know better.

The world is becoming smaller by the minute. The resources need to be shared equally amongst all, regardless of national boundaries, to prevent wars for those ever dwindling resources and ever growing needs. Anything else can and will lead to global catastrophes brought on by nothing but crass stupidity by the leaders and lack of care by the people who are able to do something about it.

In my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 02:31 PM

Continuing with this sappy metaphor, decent people need to work at derailing this demented train in any way they see fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 08:43 PM

At least when it comes to the French election, the fascist only becomes President if she gets more votes than whoever is up against her in the final round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:23 AM

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I have ever witnessed.
I might have missed something, but nowhere can I find one of Trump's supporters here prepared to put up an argument for what he stands for - nowhere.
The most virulent, racist, mycologist, hate-filled candidate ever to be elected to the White House and nobody here prepared to tall us why his policies have made him electable.
He's hardly a charismatic figure - he comes over as a crude, loudmouthed, blustering bully, he has no debating skills to speak of, he has no political experience, he is the first President elected to office whose first act after election was to be forced into settling a law-suit he had previously refused to do, where his firm ripped of students.....
Somebody like this would have been refused a job of emptying the dustbins of any self-respecting political offices.
Is it really the power that money brings that gives us our world leaders nowadays?
C'mon Ake - let's hear it for Don the Man - oyu have a comprehnsive list of what he stands for!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 07:33 AM

There really is no defense for supporting a vulgarian like Trump. That's probably why the polls had it so wrong. I've a feeling a lot of people were just too embarrassed to admit they were going to vote for him. As for the argument that he's going to reform a corrupt political system, remember this is the guy who bragged about his ability to corrupt public officials throughout his business life and through perverse logic argued that this qualified him to fix the system. Look for excessive corruption in his administration. A leopard don't change it's spots, especially at age 70.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM

Lovely Freudian slip in my last posting, must have been a spellcheck gone astray.
Far to apt to correct though.
mycologist,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 08:53 AM

"stop all the nonsense about Fascism"

Nope. Been down that road before and we know where it ends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 09:10 AM

Very apt, Jim. As they say, if you treat people like mushrooms that means you keep them in the dark and cover them with manure.
............
"Most of the rest of the world finds itself in the curious position of hoping the next President of the United States will be a liar and a hypocrite." (From an editorial in The Tablet.)

Which means that we can maybe be a little bit encouraged by the indications that this is the case, with news of his backing off on his promise to try to jail Hillary Clinton, and even maybe on a few of his other firm promises, like instantly abolishing Obamacare and totally rejecting any notion of worrying about the environment, and denouncing the outright fascism and racism of the "alt-right".

Though since he is such a liar, there's no reason to think that saying stuff like that means anything either.

If he does back off on too many of his campaign pledges I don't imagine that will go down with the people who hysterically rallied to him. But why should he care about what they think? "So long, suckers".   They should have realised that's the way he has always operated in business. Never even made a secret of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 09:49 AM

To be fair to Trump, he's making sure he'll be making a few bucks out of the whole business; apparently he was talking to the Argentine PM as PresElect and at the end tried to get him to sort our building permissions for some of his developments. Corruption before he's even in office; impressive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM

"stop all the nonsense about Fascism"
Wot Stu just said
WHERE it ENDS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 10:07 AM

And the Republicrap War On Public Education intensifies:

Betsy DeVos, Trump's Education Pick, Has Steered Money From Public Schools
By KATE ZERNIKENOV. 23, 2016

It is hard to find anyone more passionate about the idea of steering public dollars away from traditional public schools than Betsy DeVos, Donald J. Trump's pick as the cabinet secretary overseeing the nation's education system.

Ms. DeVos's efforts to expand educational opportunity in her home state of Michigan and across the country have focused little on existing public schools, and almost entirely on establishing newer, more entrepreneurial models to compete with traditional schools for students and money.

Even some groups that share her support for charter schools worried that picking someone so closely identified as a champion of vouchers signaled that the Trump administration would try to starve public schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/betsy-devos-trumps-education-pick-has-steered-money-from-public-schools.html

And multi-millionaire "The End Times Are Upon Us" Dr. Batshit Crazy at HUD - that should be really "amusing"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 11:59 AM

In fact fascism essentially has always involved a distorted parody of socialism - Mussolini was of course a prominent and active socialist before the Great War, and the very term "National Socialist" reflects that aspect. Peronism in Argentina was a variant of fascism that actually retained some aspects of genuine socialism. It's a mistake to see fascism as essentially far-right. Its primary characteristic is that it's authoritarian, most especially in relation to any popular movement it does not control.

Trumpism is very much in the tradition of fascism in many ways, most especially in drawing on the discontent of ordinary people who have lost out in recent years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:19 PM

Forgive the prejudiced prim
to the obsequious dim.
They know not what they do
be they many or the privileged few.

In Physics or Politics
some think each thing is discrete
The secret is its one
so we repeat before we've begun.

When the rich enrich themselves
there is hope they'll give you some
but there are no parallels in wealth
Cash give aways will never come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:24 PM

Cash give aways are for those with a minimum of $50 million in capital.*


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 04:56 PM

I see no parallels between the Fascism of the 1920's and 30's and the changes we see taking place today. The rise of Fascism in Europe stemmed from German defeat in WW1 and as an alternative to Communism.
In fact, the communists were the first group to be targeted and liquidated by the Fascists.
I had an old friend who fought Mosley's storm troopers through the East End of London in the 1920's

Todays changes have nothing to do with Fascism which has been completely discredited, but everything to do with the gulf between the ordinary people and the "liberal" establishment elite which used to rule them. They have been cynically sidelined by EU policies like "Free Movement of Labour" and the economics of Globalisation.

Additionally they see their traditional values being undermined by the same "liberal" elite, who appear to sneer and look down on them as Racists, Fascists and homophobes, simply for wishing to retain what they see as a sustainable and normal society.

I think you probably have something to "fear" but it is not Fascism, rather, a loss of power and a challenge to "liberal" conventional wisdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 05:06 PM

Maybe this is we we never seem to learn from history? :-(

Perhaps if we used a common language where words like fascist, liberal and fear meant the same to everyone it may help?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 05:44 PM

I see no parallels between the Fascism of the 1920's and 30's and the changes we see taking place today.

You've put your finger precisely on one of your many blind spots, Ake.

the gulf between the ordinary people and the "liberal" establishment elite which used to rule them.

The "liberal elite" like Ronald Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, Mad-Dog Wolfowitz, Newt Gingrich and all the rest of that lot, you mean? The Republicrap lot that pushed them into the toilet they're in? So they vote for that same lot on steroids?

Additionally they see their traditional values being undermined by the same "liberal" elite, who appear to sneer and look down on them as Racists, Fascists and homophobes,

Jaysus - yeah, traditional values like bigotry, racism, homophobia, fundagelical "Christianity"[sic], separate and unequal, white supremacy AND fascism (you forgetting "Heil Trump! and the Nazi salutes and all the rest?

Give the BS a rest, for once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 05:50 PM

McGrath refers to Trump as a "vulgar oaf," and Gillymor says: There really is no defense for supporting a vulgarian like Trump

Yeah, I think we elected ourselves a National Buffoon.

Maybe it will hurt less if we entertain ourselves by keeping tally of the many ways he will embarrass us over the next four years.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 06:07 PM

Ake, here's another of your "traditional values": Child Labor.
++

A think tank funded by Donald Trump's Secretary of Education pick recently advocated for putting kids back in the workforce.

The Acton Institute, a conservative nonprofit that is said to have received thousands of dollars in donations from Betsy DeVos and her family, posted an essay to its blog this month that called child labor "a gift our kids can handle."

DeVos was a member of Acton's Board of Directors for 10 years and while it's unclear how much influence she currently has on the organization, its homepage now prominently features a message congratulating DeVos on her nomination.

"Let us not just teach our children to play hard and study well, shuffling them through a long line of hobbies and electives and educational activities," said the post's author, Joseph Sunde. "A long day's work and a load of sweat have plenty to teach as well."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/child-labour-laws-need-loosening-says-group-funded-by-trumps-education-secretary-1593220


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 06:08 PM

Joe, if he were only a buffoon, that would be bad enough. He - and his growing gang of undesirables - are MUCH more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 06:59 PM

Is being a "vulgarian" the worst crime that you can find for your newly elected President?   Seems to me that a whole swathe of US presidents have been censured for much worse misdemeanours and some deified, despite their treatment of vulnerable women being disgraceful in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 07:45 PM

"Todays changes have nothing to do with Fascism "
They have everything today with Fascism - scapegoating and targeting races and minorities (then the Jews, now Muslims), removing peoples rights and replacing them with repressive laws (Trades Unionists were among those exterminated and homosexuals (your ow favourite whipping boy, girl or undecided) were incarcerated in concentration camps.
The fascism that tortured, raped and massacred many thousands of young people (described by Thatcher as her kind of democracy) was no different that the round-ups carried out by the Nazis, which filled up their camps.
"Is being a "vulgarian" the worst crime that you can find for your newly elected President? "
For crying out loud Ake - stop appeasing Trump's fascism by deliberately misinterpreting what people are saying about him - that is what crude propagandists do.
Among the worst things you can say about Trump is that his an open racist and a declared misogynist who has been recorded advocating sexually attacking women.
That is just a part of what emerged during the election.
You and your buddies are staunchly ignoring the list you have been given.
23 Nov 16 - 12:57 PM
IS THIS ACCURATE OR IS IT A BUNCH OF LIES - YES OR NO?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 08:18 PM

Of course the Communists and other Socialists were the first target for the Nazis, aken.
For one thing they represented a direct challenge to their appropriation of the word socialist. And a popular movement representing and organising workers which was independent of the "National Socialist and Workers Party", and opposed to them, was a genuine threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 16 - 09:05 PM

Ake asks: Is being a "vulgarian" the worst crime that you can find for your newly elected President?

No, Ake...but it is the only aspect of that detestable worm, that we might be able to laugh about.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 02:53 AM

Joe, I'm surprised at your post, it seems to disregard the views of at least half of the US electorate , many of them "people of faith"?

The "democratic system" seems only acceptable if it turns up the result expected by one partisan side.....Surely as a person of faith, you should take on board the social aspects of Mr Trump's election and the corruption which was being practised by the Democrats during the Primaries to ensure the defeat of Mr Sanders.

Using words like "worm" to describe someone who has won through the whole democratic process against all odds almost puts you in the "usual suspects" category.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 02:56 AM

"but it the only aspect of that detestable worm, that we might be able to laugh about."

The laughter soon wears thin when you realise this person shapes how others see your country and affect your dealings with the world. We've got arch buffoon Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary and although a certain section of society always thinks Boris is good for a laugh, no-one's laughing now*.


*Like many folk, I never thought Boris was funny. He's a racist, a habitual liar and is exudes that sense of loathsomeness one gets from a certain type of right winger (see Farage and Trump also).


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 03:02 AM

In case anyone has forgotten, and it appears that at least one person has, Trump was not elected by half of the US electorate. Only 58% of the electorate turned out and of those the majority voted for Clinton. The only reason Trump is at the White House is because of an odd quirk in the American electoral system.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 03:14 AM

Ake, you forget that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 2,000,000. My vote as a Californian counts a whole lot less than the votes of those who live in the "red states" in the center of the country. Trump was right about one thing: the election was rigged.

And I don't tend to side with "people of faith" when those people use their "faith" to support their fears and prejudices. I believe faith should support generosity and justice, two things Trump doesn't seem to believe in.

And no, I didn't see anything particularly unethical in the way Hillary conducted her campaign. Certainly, she played to win - but that's the name of the game.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 04:36 AM

Trump didn't play to win.

He played to defeat the other party.

There is a difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 08:40 AM

If Mrs Clinton had been elected president, we would almost certainly be facing another East /West cold war situation.

Joe I was not questioning how Mrs Clinton ran her primary campaign, but how the party hierarchy attempted to stop Mr Sanders. That was the biggest mistake of the whole campaign, turning many confirmed Democrat voters to a third party.

I did warn you at the time but the lure of "First woman president", the "glass ceiling", proved too much for the "liberals"

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 09:12 AM

Just trying to help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 10:11 AM

If Mrs Clinton had been elected president, we would almost certainly be facing another East /West cold war situation.

Ake, enough of the delusional rantings, OK? You've made this ridiculous claim dozens of times and it was, and is, bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 10:11 AM

"we would almost certainly be facing another East /West cold war situation."
What an indcredibly stupid and uncorroborated statement - from someone who still won't comment on Trump's own statements of intent
"First woman president", the "glass ceiling"
Bit of misogyny thrown in as good measure as well.
Keep 'em in the kitchen or on their backs, that' what I say!!
To be fair, tne nearest he's come to commenting on Trump's policies though
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 10:13 AM

This isn't about HRC any more, her political career is most likely over. This is about the fact that some Americans, in their infinite stupidity, have elected a grossly unqualified, amoral uber capitalist as their president. We've been observing him here since he first promoted himself into public view some 30-odd years ago and any one with better than a room temperature I.Q. knows he is rotten to the core.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 11:09 AM

Here's a couple of Trumps policies for Ake to comment on:

1. Replacing Medicare with TRUMP CARE

2. TRUMP'S WALL

"As many Americans are trying to figure out what kind of president they have just elected, the people of Balmedie, a small village outside the once oil-rich city of Aberdeen, say they have a pretty good idea. In the 10 years since Mr. Trump first visited, vowing to build "the world's greatest golf course" on an environmentally protected site featuring 4,000-year-old sand dunes, they have seen him lash out at anyone standing in his way. They say they watched him win public support for his golf course with grand promises, then watched him break them one by one."


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 12:48 PM

"FOR AKE to COMMENT ON"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 01:30 PM

Hitler also came to power in a democratic election, in which he received a minority of the vote.

In any case, even if the result of the election has to be respected, that is no reason to respect the person elected. Berlusconi? Thatcher? Netanyahu? Trump is not unique in being detested on the basis that he is detestable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 04:07 PM

Mr McGrath, I fear you are listing "Les Detestables" based on their political affiliations rather than on their morality.

The most detestable politician in my voting lifetime was leader of the Labour party for many years.....but he spoke well, believed in completely unregulated immigration from within the EU and never laid a finger on any "pussy" but Cherie's......and then only with the lights out, under the duvet and wearing industrial gloves.

The game's up, there is going to be an evolution and if Left and Right don't take part there will certainly ensue a form of Fascism.

People have been programmed to accept unbridled capitalism, when it's working efficiently, but when it goes into decline as it always does,(it's in the nature of the beast) people will not accept the consequences. Important matters come to the fore like survival, the right to a decent fulfilling life, freedom from abject poverty.

The backlash kicks in with a vengeance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 05:37 PM

Ake, give your spew a farking rest, already. In your case, the ignorant bullshit kicks in with a vengeance. Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 05:54 PM

Oh alright Greg, it's bed time anyway......just till tomorrow mind! ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 06:05 PM

Morality is a perceived concept. The Borgias were upstanding moral Christians. So was Rasputin. So are some of the members of this forum who spout hatred and intolerance of others. I would much rather go by what people do than what they preach. And Trump neither preaches nor performs according to anyone's moral code but that of the gutter.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 06:18 PM

Meanwhile, back in Scotland.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM

"...and never laid a finger on any "pussy" but Cherie's......and then only with the lights out, under the duvet and wearing industrial gloves."

I don't like the man any more than you do, but this is completely uncalled for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:06 AM

And still we have the bizarre situation of a newly-elected US President whose supporters are too cowardly to speak up in support of what he has said.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

Whatever is said ,YOU will make it your business to "paraphrase" it as you did with my post concerning Obamacare.

Amending what people write then presenting the result in quotation marks is cowardly and disingenuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:45 AM

"Blending wot people wrote then presenting the rabbit in quotation breeks is cowardly and disingenuous."

Too true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 08:59 AM

Interestingly Juan Enriquez (about half way) said this about the possibility of future human evolution - notably in June!

extinction level events like the next election - he made it more pointed later.

Now there's a man getting his apology in well in advance. Did he know something about the future we only feared?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 09:36 AM

No, Trump, We Can't Just Get Along

Hear, Hear!

Read Up, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 02:28 PM

presenting the result in quotation marks is cowardly and disingenuous.

Does that include "First woman president", "glass ceiling" and "liberals" :-D

Some people really do just lead with the chin don't they...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 02:54 PM

"Whatever is said ,YOU will make it your business to "paraphrase" it as you did with my post concerning Obamacare."
Then you won't comment for fear of misrepresentation - what on earth are you doing on a public forum?
"Amending what people write "
Been here before Ake - I have never amended anything and presented it as having been said - I summed up your attitude to others and caricatured it, and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise, having already had that explained to you.
What is "cowardly and disingenuous is supporting a fascist thug and refusing to acknowledge what he is and what he has said.
Feel free to identify yourself in that description - that is actually what you and your buddies are doing.
The reason you will not respond is, that having done so, you will then have to take responsibility for what you are supporting.
Nobody needs to paraphrase what Trump the Thump has said - he speaks every statement of hate and contempt for humanity loud and clear
Of course, once more you will remain silent on this and hide behind your blanket support.
That is the MASK you have chosen to hide behind
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 03:27 PM

Nice piece I have just C&Pd from a friend on Facebook.

Historian, Holocaust expert and Yale Professor Timothy Snyder posted to FB on Tuesday Nov 22:

"Americans are no wiser than the Europeans who saw democracy yield to fascism, Nazism, or communism. Our one advantage is that we might learn from their experience. Now is a good time to do so. Here are twenty lessons from the twentieth century, adapted to the circumstances of today.

1. Do not obey in advance. Much of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then start to do it without being asked. You've already done this, haven't you? Stop. Anticipatory obedience teaches authorities what is possible and accelerates unfreedom.

2. Defend an institution. Follow the courts or the media, or a court or a newspaper. Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you are making them yours by acting on their behalf. Institutions don't protect themselves. They go down like dominoes unless each is defended from the beginning.

3. Recall professional ethics. When the leaders of state set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become much more important. It is hard to break a rule-of-law state without lawyers, and it is hard to have show trials without judges.

4. When listening to politicians, distinguish certain words. Look out for the expansive use of "terrorism" and "extremism." Be alive to the fatal notions of "exception" and "emergency." Be angry about the treacherous use of patriotic vocabulary.

5. Be calm when the unthinkable arrives. When the terrorist attack comes, remember that all authoritarians at all times either await or plan such events in order to consolidate power. Think of the Reichstag fire. The sudden disaster that requires the end of the balance of power, the end of opposition parties, and so on, is the oldest trick in the Hitlerian book. Don't fall for it.

6. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking, even if only to convey that thing you think everyone is saying. (Don't use the internet before bed. Charge your gadgets away from your bedroom, and read.) What to read? Perhaps "The Power of the Powerless" by Václav Havel, 1984 by George Orwell, The Captive Mind by Czesław Milosz, The Rebel by Albert Camus, The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt, or Nothing is True and Everything is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev.

7. Stand out. Someone has to. It is easy, in words and deeds, to follow along. It can feel strange to do or say something different. But without that unease, there is no freedom. And the moment you set an example, the spell of the status quo is broken, and others will follow.

8. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

9. Investigate. Figure things out for yourself. Spend more time with long articles. Subsidize investigative journalism by subscribing to print media. Realize that some of what is on your screen is there to harm you. Bookmark PropOrNot or other sites that investigate foreign propaganda pushes.

10. Practice corporeal politics. Power wants your body softening in your chair and your emotions dissipating on the screen. Get outside. Put your body in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. Make new friends and march with them.

11. Make eye contact and small talk. This is not just polite. It is a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down unnecessary social barriers, and come to understand whom you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life.

12. Take responsibility for the face of the world. Notice the swastikas and the other signs of hate. Do not look away and do not get used to them. Remove them yourself and set an example for others to do so.

13. Hinder the one-party state. The parties that took over states were once something else. They exploited a historical moment to make political life impossible for their rivals. Vote in local and state elections while you can.

14. Give regularly to good causes, if you can. Pick a charity and set up autopay. Then you will know that you have made a free choice that is supporting civil society helping others doing something good.

15. Establish a private life. Nastier rulers will use what they know about you to push you around. Scrub your computer of malware. Remember that email is skywriting. Consider using alternative forms of the internet, or simply using it less. Have personal exchanges in person. For the same reason, resolve any legal trouble. Authoritarianism works as a blackmail state, looking for the hook on which to hang you. Try not to have too many hooks.

16. Learn from others in other countries. Keep up your friendships abroad, or make new friends abroad. The present difficulties here are an element of a general trend. And no country is going to find a solution by itself. Make sure you and your family have passports.

17. Watch out for the paramilitaries. When the men with guns who have always claimed to be against the system start wearing uniforms and marching around with torches and pictures of a Leader, the end is nigh. When the pro-Leader paramilitary and the official police and military intermingle, the game is over.

18. Be reflective if you must be armed. If you carry a weapon in public service, God bless you and keep you. But know that evils of the past involved policemen and soldiers finding themselves, one day, doing irregular things. Be ready to say no. (If you do not know what this means, contact the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and ask about training in professional ethics.)

19. Be as courageous as you can. If none of us is prepared to die for freedom, then all of us will die in unfreedom.

20. Be a patriot. The incoming president is not. Set a good example of what America means for the generations to come. They will need it."



Good advice in my opinion.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: gillymor
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for sharing that, Dave. Just what I needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 05:11 PM

Nice courageous advice Dave.

Ake says we should be afraid.

I'm afraid Ake is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Nov 16 - 11:25 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy just doesn't work ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:16 AM

Trump in Scotland. Nice one Lizzie,

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 10:26 AM

I'm afraid Ake is.

Is what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:36 PM

A political genius!    live and learn Greg :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:36 PM

Jim has discovered the eternal link between ignoring and ignorant.
You can lead a horse to knowledge but you can't make it hate might makes right.

Donald
Trump   Tweets :The Muslim gunman* shooting
students at Ohio State is an Islamic terrorist. I was right and Obama is wrong, I am right you are wrong naah na na naah naah!


Somewhere deep in Trump's heart which is like an egg timer duct taped to a fitbit, he cares about victims and their families.

*no gunman but there was a driver of hate


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 11:13 AM

Dr. Batshit Crazy, Junior, as HHS Secretary:

Donald Trump has chosen a prominent critic of Obamacare as his secretary of health and human services, casting fresh doubt over the future of the Affordable Care Act.

Congressman Tom Price said that whatever Republicans do to replace Obama's healthcare law will bear a "significant resemblance" to a 2015 measure that was vetoed by the president. That bill would have gutted some of the health care law's main features: Medicaid expansion, subsidies to help middle-class Americans buy private policies, the tax penalties for individuals who refused to get coverage and several taxes to support coverage expansion.

Price said Republicans want to address "the real cost drivers" of healthcare price spikes, which he said were a heavy regulatory burden, taxes and lawsuits against medical professionals. [Yeah, right! Reaganomics rides to the rescue.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 11:32 AM

"You can lead a horse to knowledge but you can't make it hate might makes right."
Don't suppose you'd care to qualify that Donuel - no?
Thought not - another cowardly hit-and runner!!
Fecxkin' thread is crawling with them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 12:20 PM

SIEG HEIL! HEIL TRUMP!

A new website that accuses nearly 200 college professors of advancing "leftist propaganda in the classroom" and discriminating against conservative students has been criticized as a threat to academic freedom.

The site, "Professor Watchlist", which first appeared Nov. 21, says it names those instructors who "advance a radical agenda in lecture halls."

"We aim to post professors who have records of targeting students for their viewpoints, forcing students to adopt a certain perspective, and/or abuse or harm students in any way for standing up for their beliefs," wrote Matt Lamb, an organizer of the site.

The Professor Watchlist is a project of Turning Point USA, a nonprofit organization that says its mission is to educate students about "true free market values." Charlie Kirk, its founder and executive director, wrote in a blog post that "it's no secret that some of America's college professors are totally out of line" and that it was time to expose them.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/us/professor-watchlist-is-see


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Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:10 PM

Yo, Ache! This'll sweep the Hillary corruption out of govt.! A Goldman-Sachs toady!! Heil One PerCent!!! Heil Trump! Heil Cowfart Bruce!


WASHINGTON — Steven Terner Mnuchin, a financier with deep roots on Wall Street and in Hollywood but no government experience, is expected to be named Donald J. Trump's Treasury secretary.

Mr. Mnuchin, 53, was the national finance chairman for Mr. Trump's campaign. He began his career at Goldman Sachs, where he became a partner.


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