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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 16 - 03:22 AM Amy Please do contact me - I'm happy to pass on what we have, and there is quite a lot here. One of the most interesting of the Irish collectors is Seamus Delargy, who did a lot of work here in Clare, mainly in the North West of the county. He didn't publish much, apart from in the Irish Folklore Journal, Beoloideas, but we have some of his digitised tales, also his excellent article on Irish Storytellers - you are welcome to these. Jeremiah Curtin is interesting - he was a translator by profession and worked on collections from Eastern Europe as well as Ireland - we have three of his Irish collections and one European. I had a very strange experience with one of his books. We had a very overused tatty paperback copy of his 'Irish Folk Tales' so, one afternoon in London while I was working, I dropped into a favourite second-hand bookshop and was delighted to find a first edition at a ridiculously low price. As it was a beautifully sunny day, I decided to take a cup on tea into Brompton Cemetery, over the road to examine my find. I was sitting on the grass, leaning on a large tomb and thumbing through the book, when I noticed I was leaning on Jeremiah Curtin's tombstone. He had died in London and had been buried in Brompton Road Cemetery. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 19 Dec 16 - 10:53 PM Hilary, Great link. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 19 Dec 16 - 10:39 PM Jim, I suppose I consider each work on a case-by-case basis, maybe not even using the same criteria each time. Yes, the more I explore Irish literature and music, the more I get a sense of works which would be described as "oirish." I'm familiar with Douglas Hyde, and I'm pretty sure I've come across Jeremiah Curtin, too, but I don't think I knew of those others. I'll note them down. Sounds like you had some great experiences. I wish I had access to talented storytellers such as you describe. I'm guessing Limerick University will be happy to accept your collection. I'm very interested in those Irish tales. I'll PM you with my email address momentarily. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: GUEST,Hilary Date: 15 Dec 16 - 04:45 PM These recordings are worth checking out for anyone interested in Glassie's work in Fermanagh. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:42 AM Amy (or whoever) If you are interested in a some digitised examples of Irish tales, please PM me with an e-mail address - I'll be happy to pass on anything I have to whoever is interested - that's what it's there for. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:05 AM Don't get me wrong Amy - I enjoy most of the collections, it's just that I find the ones published verbatim important for the beautiful use of vernacular - I detest the mock 'oirish' of some. Both Kennedy's works are excellent as unspoilt collections of stories - there are a few more, Douglas Hyde and William Larminie, Cross and Slover and Jeremiah Curtin spring to mind. Don't know how many of these are still available - we were collecting books just at the right time - 1970s 80s London was a paradise if you were prepared to spend the time - all sadly gone now. We had an experience many years ago when we were recording stories from one of the last big storytellers in this area (West of Ireland). We recorded a long tale from him he called 'The Gilla Dacker and his Horse'. When we got back to England (where we were living at the time) we found the tale in P. H. Joyce's 'Old Celtic Romances' which we assumed he had learned it from so, when we returned the following year we asked him did he know about Joyce. "Oh yes", he said, I read it once, but he has them all wrong". The storyteller, Packie Murrihey, lad learned his stories from his father, who is still noted locally for starting a story on Monday night, breaking off when he judged his listeners had had enough for one sitting, then taking up where he left off the following night - sometimes stretching the story over five nights. It takes skill and dedication to be able to do that. Out story collection is somewhat large and covers the world - we are hopeful that Limerick University will allow us to bequeath it to them when the time comes - it's been a labour of love and it would be a shame for it to end up in Oxfam. jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 13 Dec 16 - 06:01 PM Jim, Only the bookmakers know the solution to the mystery. Yes, I understand the rarity of such published works. I'm glad I've found a few. Does Patrick Kennedy pass muster for you? I enjoyed his Irish Fireside Folktales. Okay, I'll reconsider the Glassie. Thanks. The Fermanagh material sounds promising. I'm definitely intrigued by the Zimmermann. I looked it up on amazon and one of the reviewers mentions Passing the Time in Ballymenone, so the circle is complete. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:35 PM Rapparee, I greatly appreciate recommendations. I have the Colum. Excellent resource. It looks like the Lover and Croker is a combining of Croker's Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland and Lover's Legends and Stories of Ireland, first and second series. I'll definitely get to those eventually. I'm actually currently reading Lover's Handy Andy - great fun. I've considered the Squire, but it seems to be a reference work about the myths and legends, and I'd prefer to read the myths and legends themselves. I may use it as a starting point, though. I definitely want to go beyond the most well-known stories. Right. I do love those words, but I understand they can be overused to create an absurd caricature of language usage. For those who are interested, links to the works on archive.org: A Treasury of Irish Folklore Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland Legends and Stories of Ireland: first series second series And here's a link to a page with links to lots of books online along these lines: Folklore, Folktales, and Fairy Tales from Ireland Oh, and I do recommend Handy Andy - "with twenty-four illustrations by the author" - I love illustrations! |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:14 AM Amy "Yes, I realize "thicker paper" sounds odd, but I didn't know how else to account for how a book with fewer pages" Sorry - missed this. Just weighed the books - more or less the same size and weight, despite discrepencies in page numbers - my mistake. I too an suspicious of rewritten tales, but untampered with published tales are extremely rare in my experience - the ones i remember to have been consistently left as recorded were those published in School of Scottish Studies magazine, Tocher (now seemingly gone the way all good doggies go) and maybe 'Scottish Studies' Glassie's collection is largely taken from other collections and, as far as I can see, untampered with. He includes some of his own Fermanagh material, as recorded. The most important work on Irish Storytelling is undoubtedly, 'The Irish Storyteller' by Georges Denis Zimmermann (he of 'Songs of Irish Rebellion' fame and the best collections are those in early copies of Bealoideas, Journal of the Irish Folklore Society, particularly the ones collected in Clare by Seamus Delargy. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Rapparee Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:52 AM You might also appreciate Padraic Colum's "Treasury of Irish Folklore," Samuel Lover and Thomas Crofton Croker's "Ireland: Myths and Legends," and Charles Squires' "Celtic Myth and Legend." Of course, it depends upon what you are looking for. Cu's story has been told and retold, but those of others less so. Lover and Crocker's book is filled with dialogue of the "Musha, mavoureen, but you'll be wantin' a bit of the crayture after that spalpeen took yer money" sort. Still, it's a good read if you can get past the 19th Century attempt at copying the nuances of the speech patterns of the Irish countryfolk. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: GUEST,Dave Hunt Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:42 AM Also sung by the old Black Country singer Albert Shaw, who died many years ago, but on CD of songs from the Kings Head, See Musical Traditions website http://www.mustrad.org.uk/records.htm Lots of other wonderful CDS there too! |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 11 Dec 16 - 09:19 PM Jim: Yes, I realize "thicker paper" sounds odd, but I didn't know how else to account for how a book with fewer pages (fewer by more than 200 pages) could be heavier but not bigger. Anyway, when I get a copy of Stars, I'll make my own comparison. :-) I actually have Glassie's anthology of folktales, though I haven't read it. If I remember correctly, I got the impression that Glassie, an American, presented his own retellings of the tales, and I wanted to read versions of tales closer to the originals. If I'm wrong in this, feel free to let me know. And I know I tend to become skeptical whenever I see that a work is a "retelling" - it's possible I'm not giving this book a fair chance - but I've enjoyed reading, for example, Yeats' Fairy and Folk Tales of Ireland, which I believe keeps closer to the original tales. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Rapparee Date: 11 Dec 16 - 09:18 PM Yes, yes I am. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:50 PM Learaí na Láibe: Thank you for all the information. I ended up singing along with Mary Brogan's version, which, as you'll see below, uses the word "spoilers" rather than "Peelers." How green are the fields that are washed by the Finn, Oh, how grand are the homes that those spoilers live in. How fresh are the crops in the valley to see, But the heath is the home of the Wild Rapparee Out on the moor, where the wild winds shriek and howl, He has made his lone home there, amidst the wild fowl. No-one there to welcome, no comrade has he, Oh, God help the poor outlaw, the Wild Rapparee. He has robbed many rich of their gold and their crown, He has outlawed the soldiers who hunted him down, Alive he has boasted, "They'll never take me." A swordsman of skill was the Wild Rapparee. This morning the redcoats returned from the heath, But the sword of each leader was not in its sheath. The bright blade was dripping with blood plain to see, From the head of the outlaw, the Wild Rapparee. There's a stone covered grave, on the bleak mountainside. There's a plain wooden cross with these few words inscribed, 'Good stranger, kneel down, say an Ave for me. I was sentenced for being a Wild Rapparee.' And I think there are more issues with those first lyrics I copied and pasted from wikipedia. For instance, that first line - "How green are the fields that washed the Finn" - perhaps somebody at some point will go and fix those lyrics at wikipedia. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:16 AM "Thicker paper?" Sorry Amy - busy weekend I haven't actually weighed the books - but comparing our copies both, 'Stars' seems to be marginally heavier - it's certainly on better-quality paper. Anybody interested in Glassie's work should avail themselves of his excellent anthology of Irish folktales in the Penguin Folklore Library series and his essay on folk-song making in 'Folksongs and their Makers'; Glassie, Edward Ives and John Zwed (Popular Press (undated) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 20 Nov 16 - 09:05 AM Last message about Barnesmore Gap was by Learaí na Láibe |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: GUEST Date: 20 Nov 16 - 09:04 AM The location of the song seems to be The Barnesmore Gap, a major thoroughfare linking North and South Donegal. Barnesmore comes from the Irish "Bearnas Mór" meaning "Big Gap" The area was notorious for Rapparees, highwaymen and bandits in the distant past. The location of a gallows is still pointed out near the road. The Finn is a river north of the gap. The Finn valley is the most fertile area in the district, so this is the land that would have been settled by the planters. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnesmore_Gap http://ballybofeyandstranorlar.com/barnesmore-gap/ http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/infrastructure-in-county-/donegals-roads/ Sorry can't manage the Blue Link. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 20 Nov 16 - 07:42 AM @AmyLove. Regarding your first set of lyrics: "How grand are the houses the Peelers live in" I think the term "Peelers" is achronistic here. They were 19th century policemen. The Rapparees were about in the late 17th century to the early 18th. "The Spoilers" is the word I've heard. I haven't found any reference to that term online, but I would imagine from the historical context that it refers to the new colonists or their descendants from those turbulent times. The song has the characteristics of a 19th or 20th century historical balled in my opinion. A compelling narrative and powerful melody. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:06 AM Jim, you've gotten me interested in getting my own copy of the book, so I won't need you to scan the chapter for me, but thanks for the offer. I actually just received the copy I ordered of Passing the Time in Ballymenone. How is it that Stars is heavier? Passing the Time is 832 pages while Stars is 592 pages. Thicker paper? And for those who are interested in listening to the music of the companion cd you mentioned but aren't necessarily interested in reading the book, I'm happy to state that I found the music online here: Stories & Songs of South Fermanagh |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:05 AM Sorry - not bigger but slightly heavier Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:56 AM It was remaindered some years ago - well worth looking out It's still available on both Abe and Amazon at a reasonable price (unfortunately not The Book Depository, so postage will be a feature of the price) - It's a bigger Book than 'Passing the Time', so if you are intending to use it, it's well worth getting the hardback. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: pattyClink Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:04 AM Great thread! I loved the book "Passing the time in Ballymenone" but had no idea there was a "Stars" book and CD. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:09 AM Amy I'm happy to scan down the chapter and send it to you - it's too large to put up here, so you'll have to PM me an e-mail address. When looking this up, I discovered (after many years) that 'The Stars of Ballymenone' came with a C.D. of recordings neatly tucked out of sight in the back. Two of the tracks are: 11 Raparees, Hugh Nolan - a story of 'Black Francis' 12 The Wild Rapparee - sung by Patricia Rooney Happy to Dropbox these to you if they are of any use. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:11 AM "Young Ned of the Hill" and the Reemergence of the Irish Rapparee: A Textual and Intertextual Analysis looks interesting. You can read it here. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 15 Nov 16 - 11:04 PM I found another set of lyrics at duchas.ie : first page second page Then I found the identical lyrics here. Oh, green are the fields that are washed by the Finn And splendid the homes that the spoilers live in And rich are the crops in the valley, ah, me! But the heath is the home of the Wild Raparee. There are clouds like great mountains o'er Barnas tonight The hare seeks his den by the moon's feeble light, And the wild heath of Gadragh is bleak as the sea 'Twill be lonely tonight for the Wild Raparee. Night thickens. The clouds o'er the canopy spread, The night owl springs up with a scream from her bed. The clouds point their lightnings. No shelter has he, God help the poor wanderer, the Wild Raparee. On the bleak heath alone where the winds fiercely howl, He creeps to his hiding among the wild fowl No cry greets his advent: their comrade is he, And they dream not of harm from the Wild Raparee But who be those horsemen so late in the storm? And what seems that glare? 'Tis the King's uniform! God grant that awake and not sleeping he be: There are hounds on the track of the Wild Raparee. 'Tis morn, and the horsemen return from the heath. But the sword of the foremost is not in its sheath, Ah, no! on its bright point, all gory to see Is the head of the outlaw, the Wild Raparee |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 15 Nov 16 - 09:58 PM Jim, no, I wasn't aware of that. Any information you care to share will be appreciated. Vashta, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Vashta Nerada Date: 15 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM In the DT: There are several sets of words posted. The Wild Raparee |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:22 AM Hi Amy, I suppose you are aware that there is an entire chapter dedicated to 'Black Francis' Corrigan, the rapparee referred to in the song in Henry Glassie's other book, The Stars of Ballymenone. If not, let me know Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:13 AM Ah. Now a related thread is showing, with "Raparee" rather than "Rapparee." This led me to another recording of the song -- Mary Brogan |
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Subject: RE: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 15 Nov 16 - 02:16 AM Here are the lyrics: How green are the fields that washed the Finn How grand are the houses the Peelers live in How fresh are the crops in the valleys to see But the heath is the home of the wild rapparee Ah, way out on the moors where the wind shrieks and howls Sure, he'll find his lone home there amongst the wild foul No one there to welcome, no comrade was he Ah, God help the poor outlaw, the wild rapparee He robbed many rich of their gold and their crown He outrode the soldiers who hunted him down Alas, he has boasted, They'll never take me, Not a swordsman will capture the wild rapparee There's a stone covered grave on the wild mountainside. There's a plain wooden cross on which this is inscribed: Kneel down, dear stranger, say an Ave for me I was sentenced to death being a wild rapparee And in case anyone's interest is piqued by the book title Passing the Time in Ballymenone: Culture and History of an Ulster Community (author Henry Glassie), you can read an excerpt here. And others who have sung The Wild Rapparee: Larry Cunningham And The Mighty Avons Margaret O'Reilly Nora Butler |
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Subject: The Wild Rapparee From: AmyLove Date: 15 Nov 16 - 01:36 AM I'm hoping someone can share more information about this song. I came across it in my search for information on rapparees (they're mentioned in two novels I'm currently reading and I didn't know what they were). I found the lyrics at wikipedia -- here. The source referenced is the book Passing the Time in Ballymenone: Culture and History of an Ulster Community. I also found two recordings of the song. One by EmmettJude -- here. The other by Cathal McConnell and Duncan Wood (McConnell and Wood) -- here. |
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