Folklore: Automatic Gestures

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 02:59 PM

I'd see that hand-to-chest gesture as expressing "Be still, my beating heart!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 05:53 AM

Ah, all is explained. Thank you.
Regarding scissors, it had something to do with giving a coin of some sort if you gave scissors as a gift, as they might 'cut' the friendship.
My father used to roll his eyes to heaven at these capers, but he never actually said anything.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

Cheers for that, Jim. I didn't actually realise that putting a finger IN the ear was a technique! I've used the cupping a lot, my only ever critic being Mrs Steve, who accuses me of suffering from a folkie affectation! She's no musician...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:27 PM

"I've often wondered why singers cover one ear with their hand. Is it to help with pitch?"
What Steve Shaw says - one of the oldest singing technique in the world
CLEAR EXPLANATION HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:14 PM

Nooo! The left palm itching is money, the right is you're going to meet someone! And if a knife falls on the floor, a man will visit, a fork a woman, a spoon a child! Nothing comes to mind for scissors, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:20 PM

Steve, I'm dying laughing at you!

My Irish mother was always seeing doom and gloom in various 'signs' around the house. She used to fling salt behind her to get the better of The Devil. Knives and scissors were always signs of something or other. And an itchy palm was getting money or spending it, depending on which hand.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 05:57 PM

meself, if knives cross, it's a sign (in Irish superstition) of an impending quarrel, and therefore you pick up one knife and tap the blade on the other's to stop the row.

Senoufou, you may be interested in this: black children normally roll their eyes up to signify respect; this caused or causes some anger among white teachers, who see it as 'giving cheek' when the kids are showing the respect they would show to their beloved grandmother.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:08 PM

I've been told to stick it in various other places...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:55 PM

Marje, as is the custom, I always curtsey to my extremely elderly in-laws. And one should avoid eye-contact, looking firmly at the ground when speaking with them. I love doing it, as they're absolute sweeties and deserve much respect and deference.

Some tribes shield their mouths a bit when speaking to 'taboo' family members (mothers-in-law for example) or even address a convenient tree as a go-between!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:41 PM

So you stick your harmonica in your ear Steve?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:30 PM

To hear yourself as well as to hear any accompaniment (with the other ear). Your arm transmits some of your own sound to your ear. It works equally well with the harmonica. It looks like an affectation but it's very useful technique, certainly not "finger in the ear."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 02:40 PM

I've often wondered why singers cover one ear with their hand. Is it to help with pitch?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: meself
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:39 PM

Hmmm ... pulling out your knife or knives to prevent a disagreement from escalating seems a little iffy ... !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:45 AM

Interesting. Signals like this come and go - the clenched-fist-bowed-head salute given at the Olympics some years ago to signify oppression of black Americans; the hidden-hand gesture common in portraits of 19th-century Fenians; Hitler et al's 'Roman' salute; the hand-on-heart gesture American children use when reciting the 'Plege of Allegiance'…

Then there are the gestures used to avert bad luck or call in good luck - crossed fingers; salt-over-left-shoulder; tapping a knife on another if they cross to avert a quarrel; touching or knocking on wood; the 'Live Long and Prosper' gesture from Star Trek.

Humans really have quite a rich non-verbal language when you think about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:03 AM

Thompson, my husband (a Muslim) says he's never in his life seen or used that pointing upwards gesture. He says it's a Jihadi ISIS thing, and only That Lot use it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:39 AM

If you think of the English in Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries, it's useful to reference ISIS. As Protestant fundamentalists, they broke up church art, tortured and burned non-Protestant clergy, stole church land and gave it to prominent fundamentalists. Their aim was to steal - redistribute - the good land to Protestants, and to wipe out the Papists, either directly as in Walter Ralegh and his stepbrother and friends' murders in Munster, or by deporting them to poor land on which it was impossible to live. And they were deeply superstitious, in much the same way as Isis fighters today; when Rory Óg O'More succeeded in escaping every ambush they set for him, they became convinced that he was a 'sorcerer'.
These were the same people who went off to what they named Jamestown in America - I saw a piece, in the National Geographic online, I think it was, recently that was all excited but baffled about strange goods found in the grave of one of the settlers - to anyone reading it with a little knowledge it was obvious that the marks were 'apotropaic' marks and the goods secret Mass goods, but the archaeologists hadn't copped to this. Obviously a secret English Catholic had smuggled himself in among these fundamentalist settlers, as the safest place to hide!
But we're creeping off topic a little here, interesting though it is. What about the pointing-to-heaven gesture made by Islamic fundamentalists all over the world now - is this a new gesture, or just newly publicised?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 02:38 PM

Oh yes, you have to check! Only the select few victims are in on the joke. Our number is just one digit different from the local cinema. Could have sold dozens of tickets over the years!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 02:12 PM

Hahahaha Steve! Do you always check who's calling before saying that, or do you say it anyway? Our number is the same but for one digit as a nearby hotel, and expecting a call from my sister, I once said my jokey thing without looking at the caller display. The person at the other end replied, "Er...hello Miss..er.. Knob. I'd like to order a table for four please..." It was several seconds before I could stop giggling long enough to explain they had the wrong number.

Donuel, I find tonal languages so interesting. I speak a little Cantonese, and the word for 'bread' sounds like 'meeeem bau'. The second sound has the note going right up. My husband speaks Malinke, and it has two tones, high and low. 'My house' is 'ngya bo' and the 'bo' drops right down in tone.

(Apologies for this disgraceful thread drift.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 01:51 PM

Interesting about the Irish. One post is about the oppression of the Irish, another about widespread witchcraft. Is there a correlation?

IOW, did the witchcraft preceed the opression, or is the witchcraft the result of opression?

And, about the Irish and words; lots of Irish clergy in the US, so many in fact one guy was bragging that not all that long ago all the archbishops in the United States were Irish. The other guy hesitatingly said; uh, well...yeah, then changed the subject.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: ripov
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 01:36 PM

I think you'll find 'tutting' originally meant spitting, as in the pub name 'Tut and Shive', ie 'spit and sawdust' It still is used by some as a gesture of disapproval (or maybe warding off evil) when they see a person of another race, although it is becoming 'normalised' as they say, by the behaviour of sportspersons.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:48 AM

Part of the reason for reciting screeds of poetry was that learning by heart was the norm until a generation ago in Ireland. It was denounced as robbing kids of their creativity; now, scientists are saying that it is a protective factor against Alzheimer's…

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:45 AM

My sister and i have a jokey thing where she answers the phone to me with "Perpendicular Pencils. How can I help you?" and I use, "Horizontal Handles, Miss Knob speaking." The trouble is, I don't always look carefully at the caller display before saying it.....

In our house it's "Hello, Bolton Tyre Company, how may one help one?" 😁

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 09:49 AM

That's all extremely fascinating Thompson. My mother and all her sisters could recite absolute screeds of poetry, in very expressive voices, and also tell wonderful stories. I used to listen wide-eyed as they recounted tales of witches and the Devil, magic places and people being bewitched. One of my Irish aunties was a drama tutor in a college. Another emigrated to Canada and was a book-buyer for a big store. My mother adored the theatre. I think 'words' was the common denominator.
I have qualifications in literature, languages, linguistics and phonetics, so I really think I have inherited their flair to some extent!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 05:48 PM

It's cultural - centuries of repeated ethnic cleansing meant that only "the portable arts" were possible. In earlier centuries Irish people were good on visual art - come in and have a look at the beautiful early Christian gold work in the National Museum if you're ever in Dublin, for instance. But there wasn't much point learning to make and sell luxury goods like paintings or sculptures or fine jewellery if the patrons were all now impoverished, and the people who'd taken over their land had no appreciation for these arts.

But humans have to make art no matter what, so the artistic urge diverted into stories and music and poetry - well, poetry had always been strong; before the 17th century there were stringent schools teaching apprentice poets with a programme that included lying in the dark memorising a huge canon of poetry all day for many months (must have been terrible for the eyesight) and later learning to compose on horseback. But all that went when the Gaelic lords were disenfranchised and deported to Connacht en masse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:45 PM

Hahaha Thompson! One of our cats often says "Laptop!" when we ask him what he'd like for Christmas. And the "Help!" cry for all ours is "Wow-WOOOOOH!"

We were warned about the flicking thing for 'Irish' (We were told it used to mean flicking off a flea!!). Its very non-PC nowadays. The correct sign is two fingers tapping the top of the other hand.

All the Irish side of my family are excellent communicators, linguists, mimics and reciters. They all love singing complicated comic songs (a bit Val Doonican-like) Do you think this is a trait Irish people have naturally? I like to think I've inherited it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:49 PM

I speak fluent cat, though only a few words. There's the greeting that James Joyce expresses as "mkgnao", if I remember the spelling right, and the briefer Siamese version of this, "meringue". There's the shirring meow with a tremble on the palate that's a general "Going well for you?" And of course anyone who's ever lived with a cat is familiar with the "Open the effing door, wouldja?" meow, and the horrible "Help, I'm in bad trouble" wail.

I also speak fluent baby, and am glad that there are now YouTube videos explaining which cry means what.

My favourite thing about the various sign languages (which are different languages from country to country, like spoken languages, and have very different grammars) is the slang: Prince Charles is two hands cupped behind the ears; a Protestant (in Irish Sign Language) is a sash drawn from shoulder to waist; an Irish person (in British Sign Language) is a flick of the shoulder as if knocking off a chip. Politically incorrect all, but funny!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:47 PM

Well done Thompson,you beat me to it and I cross-posted! The black lady (the third one to demonstrate in your clip) most closely resembles my in-laws; it's a very loud sound.

My Siamese cats have several gestures (which tally with all the cats I've had over the years.) A tight closure of the eyes accompanied by a head lift is an affectionate gesture. Lowering the head and opening the eyes wide, however, is aggressive and a warning of attack.

I think being helped by deaf people at my BSL classes (several volunteered to 'talk' with us students and help us to practise) showed me just how important and useful gestures are. For instance, if you crook your elbow close to your side and pump it out and in, most people would think of playing bagpipes. This is the BSL sign for Scot or Scottish. Putting two forefingers side-by-side is the sign for 'same as'. There are many more which are fairly universal and quite obvious, even to a hearing person.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:29 PM

Ah, pointing at one's eyes with two hooked fingers is BSL for 'see'.

What about tapping the side of one's nose with the forefinger, meaning "I know something but I'm not going to tell you." or alternatively, "Keep quiet and be wise."

I'll have a look on Youtube for disapproval-teeth-sucking, there may be something on there.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:29 PM

Ah, found a video, though they call it
kissing their teeth. Yeah, Irish people used to do this, but don't so much now. But not so much for frustration as for "Well-now-let-me-think". We do it by flattening the very tippy tip of the tongue between the top and bottom front teeth and sucking in over the top of the tongue-tip.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:26 PM

Any questions were answered: I (eye) know (nose) nothing (0)

SMH

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:18 PM

Yeah, circling the index finger at the temple for 'cuckoo'.

Hm, if you could find a YouTube showing the sucking-teeth I'd be interested. There's a Japanese suck of air between top teeth and lower lip that means "Oh-my-goodness-I'd-love-to-help-but-that-would-be-awfully-awfully-difficult".

And again, back to the Aran Islands of the 1950s: the sound used to slow or stop a horse was a purr through the trembling lips that sounds like the kind of snort a horse makes. I think this sound is no longer used in Aran, though.

Another new thing is pointing upwards at the eyes with forked fingers, then pointing the forked fingers at someone, to mean "I'll be watching you". I first saw it in the film Meet the Parents and wondered if it was a Sicilian gesture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:13 AM

No Thompson, it isn't a 'tut tut' sound. It's a long, drawn-out rattling noise. You put your tongue firmly behind your upper front teeth and suck hard for ages. My sisters-in-law fall about laughing at my feeble attempts. It's a standing joke there. I always get asked to try and they always scream with laughter. I suspect it's to with their slightly different lips and mouth to my European features.
Do people still do the pointing index finger to side of head and wiggling it to indicate "He's a bit bonkers"?
I quite like the new thing where you put up the palm of your hand saying, "Talk to the hand, the face ain't listening!' That's really funny.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:07 AM

Thompson, the American political party - The Know Nothings - used the "finger-and-thumb-in-circle gesture" in conjunction with the eye and nose as a secret sign, (apply applicable offensive gesture here)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:09 AM

The 'sucking their teeth' biz - is that what's normally written as 'Tut-tut'? That used to be a common expression of disapproval in Ireland, and I think I've seen it in old English and French films too. I used to work with an executive who commonly tutted in disapproval of his inferiors' work, and they had nicknamed him Skippy (after Skippy the Bush Kangaroo, who made the same sound).

The finger-and-thumb-in-circle gesture is one to be wary of. In some cultures it means 'perfect', in others 'ok', and in others it is an offensive gesture, the female equivalent of the extended middle finger (which itself only entered the non-American lexicon in the 1970s or so, I think).

Other gestures have gone out of use, like a slow shaking of imaginary water off the fingertips, which in the 1950s-60s could mean, depending on context, 'what a drip' or 'way cool, man!' And the 'yack-yack-yack' gesture for someone who talks too much, of repeatedly opening and closing the hand so thumb and fingertips touch (with an accompanying closed-eyes look of pained patience)…

People in the west of Ireland used to point with lip or chin when I was little, and I still have the habit of doing that. Pointing with the hand was considered rude.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:44 AM

In my youth, in Minnesota, an acquaintance worked in the summer at the city's swimming pool.

When he answered the phone there, His greeting was "MYOON-i-sip-l SWIM-ing hole!" With the emphasized syllables at a higher pitch, and the last word lower than the "ing". That is, he answered that way,

I guess that's thread creep, but something above brought it to mind.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:20 AM

Hahaha! I'd really love it if we could answer the telephone with "Ahoy!" Very nautical!

My sister and i have a jokey thing where she answers the phone to me with "Perpendicular Pencils. How can I help you?" and I use, "Horizontal Handles, Miss Knob speaking." The trouble is, I don't always look carefully at the caller display before saying it.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:41 AM

hello :
Its rise to popularity as a greeting (1880s) coincides with the spread of the telephone, where it won out as the word said in answering, over Alexander Graham Bell's suggestion, ahoy.

Interesting that Russian culture is for the object of applause to also clap. In Britain clapping oneself is infra-dig bordering on the naff.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: meself
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:01 PM

Sorry, I'm not with you on the 'coo-ee'. We might say an interrogative 'Hello?' or - starting low, going high, coming half-way down - 'He-llo-ooo!'. Or - starting halfway, going down, halfway up, then rising; rhythmically - 'A-ny-bo-dy home?'. Or just a flat 'anybody' and up on 'home'.

***********

I'd forgotten about the clapping on gameshows. Just all part of the general inanity, I guess. Probably where Trump got it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:06 PM

Yes, meself, I expect the North American 'nya nya...' is the same idea. I was thinking of the tonal similarities as suggested by Donuel. And the 'coo-ee' can be in any words you like, but the tones or tune would be the same as 'cuckoo'.
I was very surprised to hear children in Abidjan doing the 'mler mler' tune to each other. They don't have any contact with Western influences, but the tune was exactly the same!
I wonder if there are any other little tonal human sounds used universally?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:29 PM

You see a lot of that applauding yourself on TV gameshows. Not sure why.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: BobL
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:15 PM

I understood that Russians apparently joining in their own applause were in fact acknowledging it - returning the compliment as it were.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: meself
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 10:32 AM

"I reckon 'Coo-ee' is pretty universal" - Well ... it's a new one on me - although it does remind me of the call my uncle (in PEI) used for his cows: "Co-co-co-co-co!"

As for "'Mler mler mler MLER mler!'" - I assume that's the equivalent of the North American 'Nya, nya, nya-NYA, nya!' ... ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:35 AM

covering of mouth or covering eyes when something that the viewer see and relates to that is somehow not fully acceptable in society. Sort of preventing of saying or seeing something.

I think you will find one or other of these gestures is so common, and though learned, has meaning to the "doer" that is comforting at a level that is definitely nature (cf nurture)

FWIW I have 2 books on body language, which I thought might help with job hunting years ago.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:22 AM

Well, footballers applaud their fans quite a lot (especially the winning team!)

Interesting Donuel about tonal similarities. I reckon 'Coo-ee' is pretty universal for 'Here I am, are you there?' (although that can be 'koko' in Africa) And that deliberately annoying playground taunting song 'Mler mler mler MLER mler!' which I've heard in many other countries. even among Malinke and Bambara speakers.

GUEST ST, I've just ordered a secondhand copy of Manwatching from Amazon, so thank you for that reference!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:55 AM

Trump applauding himself


I assumed he was applauding his audience
but who knows what is going on in his head.

I've certainly seen performers applaud their audience when they've had a good time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: meself
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 10:14 PM

Speaking of the president-elect - I'm going to try to avoid getting political - , apart from his repertoire of odd gesticulations, he has a peculiar habit related to this whole matter: applauding himself. When I was a kid, in the '60s, I would be struck by seeing, on the TV news, Soviet leaders - Brezhnev, for example - taking the stage to an applauding crowd - and applauding themselves. It seemed to me, at the time, a naively shameless gesture of self-approbation - what you would expect from dictators. As an adult, I think that interpretation is probably a little off-base - still, I was taken aback to see Trump walk across the stage applauding with the audience . A few times I caught Hilary giving a few claps for herself, as if it was rubbing off. Anyone else find that strange - or has it become a common practice?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:40 PM

Come to think of it there are automatic gestures in our tonal expressions. Chinese is a tonal language with unerringly similar tonal cohesiveness. Maybe that's why more Chinese people per capita have perfect pitch than westerners.

We recognize a sort of minor third as a gesture of are you thee.
It is more of a slightly flat major third than a minor third anyway.
It could be argued that the well tempered scale is not the most human o scales.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:26 PM

Speaking of Darwin, The Naked Ape and Italian thumb biting, it is easy to see universal gestures in infants Have you ever seen a drowsy or sleeping baby hold up their hand or hands in the 'stop' gesture if disturbed? Or how about the thumb to index finger in the symbol of 'perfect'?

Embedded instinctive gestures are usually species specific.
Monkey see monkey do is off base pertaining to gestures.
Not even chimps can point to the subject of interest.

Then there is the gestures dogs make to humans that is undoubtedly an artifact of breeding. Not everybody can read dogs as well as people gifted autistic or dimensional minded people. Linear minded people may be brilliant but interspecies communication is completely lost on them.

I am saying that gestures at an extension of language
Some mammals speak an Xray language so foreign to us we can barely imagine their literal visual sound sense.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:19 PM

Insofar as shaking hands is a way of demonstrating non-hostility, doing it with both hands makes more sense, since it cuts out the possibility of using the other hand to clobber the other person.

But I don't like the version where the left hand grasps the other persons hand as well, or worse still the wrist - it feels over controlling. Some politicians seem to favour it.
............,,,,,,,

Right there, gargoyle - I really hope that Trump's extraordinary use of gestures to orchestrate his speeches won't becme common practice. Here are pictures of a previous politico who employed the same kind of repertoire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Automatic Gestures
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:57 PM

The media of the internet is now universal and visual.

It might take 24 hours before a movement...not the lyrics...transcends space and time and becomes global.

A classic example appeared within the USA 2016 elections.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

sleep well....your future is secure.