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BS: Theresa May's new year message

Jim Carroll 15 Jan 17 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 17 - 08:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM
DMcG 15 Jan 17 - 07:43 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 17 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 17 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 17 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 17 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 17 - 03:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 17 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 17 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 17 - 05:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 17 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 17 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 17 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 17 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 05:14 PM
akenaton 13 Jan 17 - 04:51 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 03:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 03:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 02:30 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 17 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 01:53 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 01:50 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 01:33 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 01:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 01:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 01:08 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 11:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 17 - 09:11 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 17 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 06:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 17 - 05:26 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:05 AM

Ah - what the hell, if it'll help put an end to this friggin' nonsense
Jim Carroll

This, from a debate on the causes of "massive over-representation of Muslims" in sexual crimes against underage young women in Britain
You may check the context on the "Muslim prejudice" thread.
I trust these are Keith's posts and that the Russians haven't hacked this website
Jim Carroll


Muslim Prejudice thread.
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us

Later
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM
I find it hard to understand your reluctance.
I have restated my case many times, and will do it again if anyone asks.
Alan, you have been following the debate.
Are you clear why Lox is certain there can be no cultural cause?
Lizzie?

Later
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:48 PM
I was just hoping that if no one else knows why you can not accept a cultural cause either, you might remind us.
You have said that you do not accept that there is a distinct BP culture.
Is that it?
You would not want to risk ridicule by saying that again.
Does anyone here know why Lox rejects a cultural explanation?
Dave, you have been more than fair in you comments on this debate.
Do you know?

Later
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM
"And Alan - by definition, a hypothesis which discriminates solely on the base of race/culture and which deliberately excludes all other factors is a racist hypothesis."
So, if we think that culture might be the explanation for the massive over representation, we must unthink it, because it is "racist."
No theorising is permissable, or you are a racist.
Stop the debate, or be guilty of racism.
You must not even imagine such a thing.
Quite liberal Lox. not shared with us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM

"I have never attacked any ethnic group, liar."#Since when are Pakistanis not an ethnic group - want me to put up yiur quote again?
Farage is a racist, you are a racist for supporting him and for what you have said on this forum about other races
End of story, unless you want me to put up that quote - don't hesitate to ask - I have it filed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 08:37 AM

Yes Dave. You have said they are racist. That is evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM

I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.
That is the difference in our moralities Dave.


Neither do I, Keith. Have I said anyone is evil?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM

Jim,
You are a racist

No I am not, and you can quote nothing racist I have ever said, Liar.

- your attack on Pakistanis makes that beyond doubt

I have never attacked any ethnic group, liar.

Dave,

Oh, and my belief is based on the evidence I have given


Which is none. All you have given is disputable, disputed and denied.
Nothing unequivocally racist has yet been produced.

just interpret the evidence in a different way to you.

How I interpret it is irrelevant.
Their political enemies give racist interpretations rejected and denied by the people who actually said it!
That is just attempted smearing.

I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.
That is the difference in our moralities Dave.

Steve,

Farage also wants to force all migrants to have five years' private medical cover.


What happens to migrants in countries without an NHS?
When they become British National, they are covered by NHS.
Foreign Nationals are not. It is an economic argument about where the funding should come from, not a racial one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 07:43 AM

Off topic but a little tale for all those who buy the media stuff about how easy immigrants get benefits. My daughter was born in Kent and lived there or in Hatfield until she was 28 except for studying in Durham. Then she worked abroad for two years and came back for a while to see us, where she had a temp job up to and over the Christmas period. On Friday she went to sign on with two agencies and also at the Job Centre. It appears she is not entitled to any job seeker or other benefits because she is regarded as an EEA citizen not a UK one and she hasnt been in the country long enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 07:24 AM

Farage also wants to force all migrants to have five years' private medical cover. That discriminates against poorer migrants - racism by whatever name you want to call it - and it also, ironically, invites queue-jumping for medical treatment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 05:06 AM

Oh, and my belief is based on the evidence I have given. I, and many others, just interpret the evidence in a different way to you. Hence the different moralities, different language and different planet comments. Got it yet or are you still struggling with that basic concept?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM

I have no itntention of being any part of your fucking up another thread Keith
You are a racist - your attack on Pakistanis makes that beyond doubt
Ukip is racist - its attack on foreigners puts that beyond any doubt and your supposrt for it only confirms it.
I have little doubt that, if BNP ever comes up you would first say you don't support it, as you have about Ukip and then put in the same effort as you have here in supporting its policies.
Ukip is nothing more than the BNP with political ambitions and a little more nouse.
Be happy to be part of both
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM

and I am "stupid" for requiring actual evidence of their racism.


But I never said you were stupid, Keith. I just asked the question.

You remember this surely? It was less than 2 days ago!
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM

No wriggling from me.
Asking the question is not the same as claiming or asserting the fact, and that "rule" does apply to all.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. That is an indisputable fact.


:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:48 AM

Dave,
You do not believe the actions of Farage and UKIP are racist. I, along with many other people do. Are you so stupid that you cannot even see that?

So it is down to "belief" not evidence Dave, and I am "stupid" for requiring actual evidence of their racism.

I am willing to see their racism and keep asking you to identify it, but you seem unable to.

UKIP is a political party. Its aims and objectives are set out in its manifesto and its literature.
If there is no racism in any of that, how do you know it is racist.

It seems like just prejudice because their views differ from yours.

Jim,
"Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national,"
On a racist basis then - agreement at last


Not on a racial basis. What is wrong with you?
British Nationals are of all races. EU immigrants are overwhelmingly white. Race has nothing to do with it.

Gordon Brown also demanded, "British jobs for British workers."
Racist Jim?

"My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all."
He lied


How could he. He said it on camera to Channel 4 !

You haven't commented on anything else I put up so I take it we agree he's a racist!

No. I need evidence first and you have produced none.

He linked foreigners with bringing aids into Britain and demanded they receive no treatment - isn't that racist in your book?

He did not demand that. Just that treatment of foreign nationals should not be paid for by the NHS which is struggling to treat those who pay for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:27 PM

Forgot the link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11514369/Revealed-Nigel-Farage-planned-Aids-comment-as-part-of-shock-and-awful-TV-debate-strategy.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:24 PM

"Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national,"
On a racist basis then - agreement at last
"My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all."
He lied - he said elsewhere that he only said what he said under stress - a bit like you really
You haven't commented on anything else I put up so I take it we agree he's a racist!
He linked foreigners with bringing aids into Britain and demanded they receive no treatment - isn't that racist in your book?
You are one sick cookie Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:04 PM

Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

Who died and made you boss?

The difference is blatantly there for all to see so I have no need to justify anything. You do not believe the actions of Farage and UKIP are racist. I, along with many other people do. Are you so stupid that you cannot even see that?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:29 PM

Dave,
Different moralities.

No. I do not believe we have different moralities and ask you to justify that claim. Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

I am as opposed to racism every bit as much as I am sure you are.
I just ask for evidence of it before I vilify someone or some party for it.
Farage and UKIP may well be racist and worthy of our contempt, but show me some unequivocal evidence for it first.
Why is that so hard to do?

Different language.

I ask you to justify that claim too.
Which words are you claiming have different meaning for us?
Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

Different planet.

That is just silly Dave. That vacuous claim can never be justified, so why make it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM

Jim, we have been through all that.
From your quote,
"Britain should scrap laws on racial discrimination at work."

Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national, whatever their race, over foreign nationals just because they are cheaper.
"British jobs for British workers" as Gordon Brown used to say.

BBC on this issue.

" Mr Farage said: "My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all.
"I have made comments in favour of British people getting jobs over and above those from southern eastern Europe."
The UKIP leader said he was speaking up for Britain's unemployed youth "both black and white", saying the young black community had suffered the biggest rise in unemployment as a result of immigration.
He said Gordon Brown, as Labour prime minister, spoke of British jobs for British workers, adding: "Well I'm saying it and really meaning it."

Link supplied yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 05:47 AM

"It is not true that UKIP plans to "axe much of race discrimination law."
An obvious lie - please explain this
Your explanation is an excuse - nobody else has made such a claim
Jim Carroll

Britain doesn't need anti-discrimination laws, says Farage
He made the comments in a documentary that will go out next week.
Mar 12th 2015
NIGEL FARAGE, LEADER of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), sparked outrage today for saying Britain should scrap laws on racial discrimination at work because it was no longer a problem.
In a documentary to be screened next week, the head of the anti-mass immigration, anti-European Union party said he would repeal "much of" the legislation introduced a generation ago to stop employers hiring staff on the basis of ethnicity and gender.
He said businesses were burdened with regulations and scrapping such laws would allow them to hire British workers ? from any ethnic background ? rather than immigrants to address the issue of unemployment among young Britons.
"Moved way beyond that"
In a BBC radio interview, Farage said discrimination legislation had been necessary in the past but "I think we've moved way beyond that as a society".
Asked if there should be redress for victims of racial discrimination, he said: "Yes of course, if people are being blatantly racist, but they're not.
"Let's stop beating ourselves up and saying we're a racist country, we're not. We've moved way, way, way beyond that."
He said: "I think employers should be able to employ people on ability? Let's try please to put the interests of unemployed black and white British youth first."
A spokesman for Prime Minister David Cameron, whose Conservative Party risks losing some of its lawmakers to UKIP in the May general election, said Farage was "wrong".
"The laws are there to protect people from racial discrimination. It's deeply concerning he doesn't understand that," he said.
Opposition
Opposition Labour justice spokesman Sadiq Khan said Farage showed "breathtaking ignorance" and said his proposal would take Britain back to the days when businesses put up signs saying they would admit "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish".
"We have made huge progress on tackling racial inequality and discrimination in this country? but things are still far from perfect," he said.
The Labour Party this week released figures showing that long-term unemployment among black and minority ethnic young people had increased by 49 percent since 2010.
Overall the number of 18 to 24-year-olds unemployed for more than a year fell one percent in the same period, according to The Guardian newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 05:37 AM

I can not understand why you think you have!

Different moralities. Different language. Different planet.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:54 AM

Have we not justified our claims, Keith? I thought we had on a number of occasions? Why can you not understand that?

I can not understand why you think you have!
It is not true that UKIP plans to "axe much of race discrimination law."
Non-racist explanations have been provided for the comment on Romanians.
The poster was a legitimate news image of a current EU issue.

Not one unequivocal example of racism has been produced.
If that is not true, remind us of one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM

And the music goes round and round - and comes out - where?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM

Have we not justified our claims, Keith? I thought we had on a number of occasions? Why can you not understand that?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:26 AM

Keith starts a response with "Dave" then moves to the next line to tell you that you've put up a baseless accusation

Yes, but why do you people think it is OK to make them?
You say I defend UKIP, but all I do is ask you to justify your claims about them?
Why is that so hard for you?

If it is not in the manifesto it cannot be true

If it is not in the manifesto, it is not one of the stated aims of the Party.
If there is no racism in the views and aims as set out in the manifesto, how do you know it is racist?
You have ducked that simple question several times now so presumably you have no answer.

Isn't it quite nice to know that poor Keith thinks he's won?

This is not a debate to be won or lost.
It is you making claims that you can not substantiate, and others pointing out your failure.
No-one has won or lost, but you have failed to make your case stand up.
You would need some evidence for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:56 AM

"Ah! I think I have the answer, you could all stop using your Mudcat handles and register as Team Carroll, Gnome, or Shaw?"
No Ake, the answer is that you start to respond to the points made rather than treating these these disputes as personality clashes
You refuse to justify your horrendously inhuman claims, you refuse to respond head on to the arguments - you just go on making your extremist points without justifying them over and over again, Keith is the same.
Neither of you are prepared to accept the responsibility for your constant extremism on the people you choose to victimise.
This present interlude is a bit of fun - feel free to join in and see how you get on - this is a public thread - it is people like you who choose to divide it up into cliques.
It would be so easy to refer to you tr little ream as a foursome of Rabid Rightists, but nobody does.
Leave it out and let's have some honest, open responses for a change.
When was the last time you actually answered a point? (there - another question!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM

Funny thing is that every time. Keith starts a response with "Dave" then moves to the next line to tell you that you've put up a baseless accusation, etc., I think of the voice of Hal in 2001:

"Open the pod bay doors, Hal."

"I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..."

Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do...


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM

What jester, Dave? Can you corroborate that or is that yet another of your baseless accusations just because a hopeless homophobic bigot happens to have shown up? Can you give me one quote from him that has ever been in the least bit funny which demonstrates that he fits the description "jester?" Good luck with that, Dave! And bugger me sideways with a bent banana but isn't "Good luck with that, Dave" the first sentence I've typed for hours that doesn't end in a question mark? Can you put up one quote from me that proves that it wasn't? Of course not, silly! You lose!


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:14 PM

Ahhh. Has the jester shown up?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:51 PM

Ah! I think I have the answer, you could all stop using your Mudcat handles and register as Team Carroll, Gnome, or Shaw?

Of course you would have to toss for the honour. :0(

But you should have no difficulty with that...eh? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:38 PM

I don't "think" things, Dave. I know things, because I've read them on websites and things and that's evidence for the fact that everything I say that fits with my predigested opinion is true, and those websites and the Mirror and Telegraph and stuff supports me and not you who has quoted nothing except made-up shit, loser, prove stuff even, because, because...


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:34 PM

Do you think we will now get someone telling us that we should not be corrupting a serious discussion with feeble attempts at humour?

Or that it is a completely different thing when other people ask a serious question?

Does anyone really give a fuck?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM

Wasn't it?
Who knows?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:30 PM

I suppose you think that's funny?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:01 PM

Isn't it quite nice to know that poor Keith thinks he's won? That he's so good at putting somebody or other's side of the story to us iggerant reprobates who have never put up a single fact about anything? And that I've forgotten how to end a sentence without a question mark?


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:55 PM

Who knows?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:53 PM

Ah but will he, Jim?

Why not, Steve?

Could we get used to conversing only in questions?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:50 PM

And don't even think of replying with your usual beer-flavoured spittle-flecked rant, Dave. You haven't put up a single fact to disprove that Farage is actually centre-left and that the people in that poster weren't just queuing up outside the fancy-dress shop in Dewsbury on New Year's Eve. Prove it, Dave. I don't care what you want to prove and I can't even remember what I want you to prove. Or not prove. You have never put up one single fact to prove something that I proved that you couldn't prove. Good luck with that! And can somebody tell me where the Hertford bus stop is, please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM

I hope you realise "he's won" - any minute now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:33 PM

Ah, but do I?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:32 PM

Are you claiming that I'm "Steve" just because I've been posting as "Steve" for ten years, Dave? That is a typical unsubstantiated assertion, Dave, and you can't provide a single quote from me that asserts that I am actually Steve. Just more of your made-up shit, Dave. You lose!


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:22 PM

In fact, if we combine a couple of Keith's rules we are on a real winner. If it is not in the manifesto it cannot be true and if it is just a question it is not making a claim about anything.

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about kicking Nigel Farage in the bollocks so is it OK to do it?

Sorted!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:08 PM

You have it all wrong, Steve. I am not making any claims, assertions or calling anyone anything. Just asking a question ;-) Keith says that is OK, so it must be!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 11:26 AM

I knew he'd break you, Dave! 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM

OK. So I guess it would also be OK if I were to ask if you were a thick cunt?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM

No wriggling from me.
Asking the question is not the same as claiming or asserting the fact, and that "rule" does apply to all.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. That is an indisputable fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM

What a load of wriggling. Sorry Keith, your rules do not apply to the rest of the world. Asking someone if the voices told them or if they imagined it is the same as accusing them. No wonder you are such a fan of Farage. He is even better at twisting words than you.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:11 AM

Dave,
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question.

In the two quotes you gave, I make no claim or assertion.
I just asked the question.

So, Keith, in what way was I not telling the truth?

You claimed that Farage, "would axe much of race discrimination law."

Exact BBC quote you just gave, "Nigel Farage would axe 'much of' race discrimination law."

They put "much of" in quotes to distance them from the accusation being reported, which does not stand up.

The second exact quote you gave, "UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said."

So BBC is only claiming the want to change some workplace discrimination legislation, and specifically so that British people should be employed when possible instead of giving preference to foreign nationals because they might be cheaper.

Farage answered all that, as the BBC went on to report,

" Mr Farage said: "My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all.
"I have made comments in favour of British people getting jobs over and above those from southern eastern Europe."
The UKIP leader said he was speaking up for Britain's unemployed youth "both black and white", saying the young black community had suffered the biggest rise in unemployment as a result of immigration.
He said Gordon Brown, as Labour prime minister, spoke of British jobs for British workers, adding: "Well I'm saying it and really meaning it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 07:04 AM

" 'recognised sources'."
Only because Keith and others refuses to recognise those he doesn't agree with - left ones were specified.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll use any source, but with circumspection when it comes opinion rather than established fact
I have quoted from the Telegrapg and the Mail regularly - I think I have used the Sun once, to point out to one of our number that even this right-wing bumwipe had dismissed the forcing of refugees to wear identification insignia while he was (and still is) supporting it.
" I asked whether you believed that,"
Which implied that I might do - I don't, and I would have thought my opinions on this were well enough known.
I've got a little tired of seeing critics of Israel being accused of "antisemitism" by by people whose actions make them guilty of same.
Anyway - conversation over now we have cleared the air - I hope
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:40 AM

I've told you,Dave - Keith's memory is not only highly selective but also doesn't extend beyond the post before last. Hence the constant repetitions...

Don't mention Wheatcroft. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...(to misquote Basil Fawlty)


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM

Not sute what you are saying Nigel (you tend not to explain yourself)
My comments should have needed no further explanation. I was making the point that you used the term 'recognised sources'. I made the point that just being 'recognised' does not necessarily mean that the source is reliable. As you seem to point out in the next few paragraphs.
I neber quote from Al-jazeera as the people I argue with seem to believe that Arabs aren't entitled to an opinion.
I very seldom use The sun (except when I am taken short and there's no toilet paper) - occasionally it's useful as when it takes a pop at the establishment, you can take it as read that it wouldn't do so if it were avoidable- likewise the Mail.
Both are right-wing tabloid rags.
The Telegraph is handy as it is a serious paper when you take into consideration where it is coming from.
I scan all the press, either for information or to find out which way the wind blows
These people offer nothing but their own opinions and I know which way the wind blows with them
What on earth is your point?
I didn't get an answer to whether you believed I think Jews to be mentally deficient - neither a yes or no, certainly not a retraction.
I didn't say that you believed Jews to be mentally deficient (although it is possible that you read it that way). I asked whether you believed that, on the basis that you had stated that Jews were forced to wear the black triangle (a sign of mental deficiency). As I hadn't made a statement about the matter, there would be no need for a retraction.
I suppose we have to learn to live with hit-and-run debate
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:44 AM

Dave,
You claimed that Farage said he would "axe much of race discrimination law" and you were not telling the truth.


EXACT quote from the BBC news article, cut and paste. Nothing altered

Nigel Farage would axe 'much of' race discrimination law

UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said.


So, Keith, in what way was I not telling the truth? Or are you saying that the BBC was not telling the truth as well?

As to the other point -


Dave, when you state things that are not true, I am entitled to ask where they came from.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. Did you?


Well, here are two examples of you doing exactly what you just said you have not done -

"How are you sure Dave? Voices?"

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about that, so where did you get it from Dave?
It is not true, so did you make it up or imagine it?


Why do you say something and then deny you said it, Keith, when it is plain for all to see. You are either very forgetful or spectacularly dishonest.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:26 AM

Haven't you disgraced yourself enough with lying about your own racism without lying about Ukip's
For christ sake peope;l - do not feed this troll - he's doing as much damage to himself as he is to the thread
Have a bit of pity
Jim Carroll


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Mudcat time: 17 October 8:32 PM EDT

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