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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM It's not quite that though, Dick. Racism and racial discrimination are two different things. Making fun of people on the basis of the colour of their skin is not discriminatory but it is racist. I know that Morris teams are not making fun of people but to some it may look like they are. While I would never dream of preventing anyone from blacking up if the wanted to, I would not do it myself as I think it could viewed, as it has in this case, as offensive to some. And there are good alternatives. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM painting the face black has nothing to do with racial discrimination, racial discrimination is about people being discriminated against when applying for jobs or entering pubs cafes or being forced to sit in a certain part of a bus because of their colour or race., or being called abusive names, since when has BLACKED UP MORRIS DANCING BEEN RACIAL DISCRIMINATION. if sides refused to let someone dance on the basis of their colour or sex now that is discrimination, The morris ring have been guilty of gender discrimination in the past. hypothetically does anyone object to black or brown people painting their faces white or pink. I am against any kind of racial discrimination OR ANY KIND OF GROUP DISCRIMINATION. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Howard Jones Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM Andrew Wigglesworth, a number of sides do just that, rather than using completely different colours they go for black patterns or only partial blacking. If teams or individuals choose to do something different to blacking up, either because they are uncomfortable with the historical associations or simply feel it is inappropriate in today's society, that is entirely up to them. However if they are being pressured, or worse intimidated, into doing so that is a very different matter. To give in to that sugggests that we should be ashamed of our traditions, and I don't believe we have any reason to be. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,theleveller Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:06 AM Bowie did the face painting thing to perfection - much more interesting than just blacking-up. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Snuffy Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:42 AM Some sense being talked at last! Nobody has objected to dancers wearing disguise, only to painting the whole of the face entirely black. Any other colour, or combination of colours and designs is acceptable. This is the position taken by FRESH, Shrewsbury Folk festival and EFDSS - see Rtim's 10th January 08:49 posting of the EFDSS statement: "We use contemporary images of dance sides that disguise their faces with the use of masks or non-black paint and patterns in our print, online, and teaching resources, and engage such dance sides for EFDSS events and education projects." |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:32 PM Can't remember if I said this in a previous thread.. but look to world war one Dazzle Ships for imaginative cool abstract camouflage markings purposely designed to disguise, disorientate, and confuse.... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:57 PM just looked at Dave the G's picture! What a load of nutters! they'll take some explaining away! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:53 PM Well said, Andrew. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Andrew Wigglesworth Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM That report in the Bromsgrove Standard. I don't suppose there's anything else you'd expect the Police to say. Just looking at Alvechurch Morris, it occurs to me that this whole thing could be pretty easy to solve ... hang in here. Darker colours, especially black, seem to favour the "look", disguise or perhaps "menacing" aspect of the makeup ... so, why not just add a bit of a stripe across the face, zig-zags on the cheek of white, silver or gold or something similar. It would deflect this whole argument and we could just get back to dancing and watching the dancing. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM Latest development |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Rumncoke Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM Perhaps someone could look for any reference to the wearing of pheasant feathers by border morris sides. I have a strong suspicion that the blacking up has far more to do with the surreptitious acquisition of the former owners of the feathers than mocking skin colour - particularly as anyone working outside in all weathers would have a permanent tan. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM I took the opportunity to ask someone involved in a multicultural dance project not far from Bacup what the local view of the Coconut dancers was. I was told that so far as the creative arts in the area was concerned they were 'old and irrelevant'. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Richard Mellish Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM Only a few posts on this thread have mentioned Britannia Coconut dancers. Their website says "the custom of blackened faces are thought to reflect a pagan tradition as a disguise from the evil spirits / and part of the mining connections". It also says "the dances are known to be originated with Moorish pirates which the costume is that of what a Moorish pirate would wear." Take those statements with as much salt as you like: I suggest several handfuls. But still, is there the slightest chance of their changing from blacking up? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:53 AM I'm sure I've seen a study which showed some evidence of blacking up prior to the minstrelsy period, but this is on another computer and I can't access it. It is also relevant that prior to the same period blacking up was illegal under anti-poaching laws. When these laws were repealed morris teams may have simply resumed blacking up without necessarily being influenced by minstrelsy which justhappened to be introduced around the same time. Minstrelsy was indeed a huge craze during the same period as morris, but correlation does not necessarily imply causation - this is a well-known "trap" when looking at data. Because minstrelsy was so popular I find it significant that blacking up was not more widespread in morris, and it seems to been found in the traditions most associated with begging customs which lends support to the disguise interpretation. My own conclusion is that minstrelsy was not the origin of blacking up in morris, although that those traditions which already blacked up (or which used to before the Black Acts) naturally adopted more of the trappings of minstrelsy than those which did not already do so. I accept this is only conjecture of course. I don't think we should be ashamed of our traditional customs which involve blacking up. If teams or individual performers are uncomfortable with it and decide to do something different that is their choice, but I don't think they should be forced to, and especially not by violence or intimidation. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM no probs Big Al... Yesterday I was being pestered by an ID imposter "GUEST punkfolkrocker".. Clever twat seems to think I'd be upset if he/she posted 'outrageous' posts in my name...!!!??? Mods deleted all posts I was aware of.. but I was wondering if the malignant wanker had slipped in another post, which you read, and mods deleted in the hour or so between my last post and yours. So good then, that wasn't the problem.. take care mate... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 17 - 08:02 AM sorry PFR. it was Morris-ey who called us yokels. cheeky sod! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:42 AM Steve - Oh bumflaps.. you caught me out on that one.. I was trying to maintain a public face of objective neutrality, whilst inside I obviously sympathise with the more moderate multiculturalist protesters.... 😎 There you go.. I'm outed.. .. and, the moral is .. It's better to not hide behind masks...!!! 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM I `ad that Fred Tankard-Beard in my cab the other day. I gavver e`s the new National Captain of Dance. `e was on `is way to the EFDSS to chair a meeting about them `as wants to do away with the centuries old tradition of blacking faces when Morris dancing. I could see `e `ad been dancing the night before. `e `ad bits of charcoal black around `is ear`ole. I said, "`Morning Fred. That Mudcat seems to `ave it`s knickers in a twist again about this old chestnut. You got any thing to say about it?" `e said, "Jim, I`ve gotta be even `anded about this and `aving spent sleepless nights realising that no one opinion is going to change anything, I shall propose the only solution." I said, "What`s that then. That the EFDSS come down on the trad. side?" `e said, "No Jim. A referendum!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:33 AM Dunno about those activist zealots. Is this an issue worth discussing at all or should we just let these dancing geezers get on with it? Throughout history it's often been activist zealots who have brought issues to the fore so that potential injustices at least can't be ignored. Activist zealotry may have played a large part in getting the slave trade abolished and doing away with apartheid. So is the game worth the candle or not apropos of this *relatively* minor issue? It won't change the world much if Morris men stop blacking up. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt much if they just quietly dropped the practice. Strikes me that pig-headed principles should not be resorted to on either side of this by people who regard themselves as grown-ups. Don't carry on doing it and find another way is what I think, on balance. But if they do carry on I will be giving an extremely small damn. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:20 AM Minstrelsy was huge in the 19th century. The border morris sides picked up on the musical instruments associated with it as well as the look, not to mention music hall songs such as Not for Joe. While we would now see it as racial stereotyping, the point back then was to keep traditions alive by injecting them with a bit of popular culture. It's a bit ironic that these innovations are championed by those who want to resist changing things to keep them up-to-date. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM GUEST - OK I try not to talk complete happy clappy bollocks, where have I ever intimated that achieving a multicultural utopia rests on dragging a bunch of awkward bugger morris dancers into the 21st Century... I would hazard a guess that activists who are vehemently anti, and activists who are militantly pro blacked up face are probably all a bunch of fuckwit zealots in their own peculiar and anti social ways...??? If I habitually use the term black face rather than blacked up.. then apologies if it is a petty annoyance.. What do I know...??? I live down in a part of the south west where morris men are manly enough and unashamed to not need to hide their true faces in public behind masks... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:01 AM Few in the borders in the 19th century I mean. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:00 AM Why would anyone in the Welsh borders want to ridicule black person. Few in the audience would ever have seen one. If they had seen a minstrel show they would probably not have regarded it as ridiculing black people. Ask yourselves you (in the UK) who saw the Black and White Minstrel Show on TV - did you regard it as ridiculing black people? More likely I think that someone in the borders saw the posters for a minstrel show and thought 'hey that black stuff would be fun for the morris side' |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:49 AM This is why it's essential for survival of BlackUp / Face morris and Coconutters, that the care-holders of these traditions present and explain themselves to a wider public in a far more intelligent and considerate manner. Yes, but it's hardly the biggest challenge to achieving a happy multicultural society. Their are others that can't be explained in a couple of sentences. Soft target (e.g. without funds to meet a legal challenge) for activists wanting something to activate about I reckon. Something easier - is there any evidence for Morris dancers refering to it as 'blackface'? If not is doing so in this debate ignorance or activism. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:29 AM The EFDSS statement in the Winter 2016 EDS contains a useful reading list, for anyone who wants to check the facts. The one thing that all the authors are agreed on is that there is no evidence of blacking up in border morris before the minstrelsy period (which starts in 1836). |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:07 AM padgett - Well you can say all that in such a dismissive manner... But aren't 'non folkies' a significant majority of the UK population...??? ...that's by your reckoning a hell of a lot of idiots.. Idiots who by sheer numbers hold a lot more sway, with media, public opinion leaders, and public policy legislators... A damn sight more than the slither of 'majority' that won Brexit... 😜 This is why it's essential for survival of BlackUp / Face morris and Coconutters, that the care-holders of these traditions present and explain themselves to a wider public in a far more intelligent and considerate manner.. Arrogance, insensitivity and a superiority complex will lead to their downfall.....???? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,padgett Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM The issue is by and large a load of twaddle ~ racist connotations clearly in the minds only of non folkies who have made wrong conclusions regarding the black and white minstrels ~ the only concessions that COULD be made (though I think should not) is colour change to say blue or red, or partial "blacking" What a load of idiots who are simply as said by me earlier displaying the usual traits of football "fans" on match days expressing their frustations on owt they don't follow or is different to their "senses" Ray The Brittania Coconutters are a National Institution for example and long may they sup their beer, dance and perform and black up |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:24 AM Morris-ey, I don't expect the ordinary person in the street to have heard of the EFDSS, but anyone trying to make up their own minds will come across it soon enough. As the oldest body in this country concerned with folk dance and song, its statements on these topics do carry weight. I do not expect EFDSS to give a definitive ruling on blacking up (I will not use the loaded term blackface, which has a specific meaning related to minstrelsy). There is very little hard historical evidence to go on, and people can only make their own minds up as best they can from this limited evidence. Unsurprisingly they come to different conclusions, but these are only opinions, and no one knows the real truth of the matter. I don't expect EFDSS to untangle this, or for it to be any more capable of finding the real answer than anyone else. However, to repeat what I said earlier, I would have expected an organisation formed to preserve and celebrate English folk music and dance, to have explained this in more detail than it has. I would also have expected it to explain that the Border (and Molly) revivals retained blacking up because it was a distinctive and striking characteristic of the original traditions, and in the belief that it was done for disguise, although this belief is now being challenged. Had it done this I would have more respect for its own position, which would then show respect for (or at least acknowledgement of) the original tradition while being bold enough to change to reflect a different society. Instead the statement it has issued gives me the impression that it is embarrassed by the whole thing and wants to wash its hand of the nasty business as quickly as possible. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:59 AM Big Al - ?????? you alright mate... I've written nothing about Lincolnshire folk..????? I was talking about my culturally stifled mean spirited lot down here in wonderful west country wurzelful Scrumpyshire.... So maybe now we can stop distracting from thread topic by getting all over sensitively defensive about our home counties.. you know.. divide and rule and all that dominant ideological ruling system malarkey.... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:44 AM Backwoodsman, great list - Newton in my view equal first in the list of greatest English people (equal with Shakespeare and maybe Roger Bacon). Right up to the last on the list, you lost me there! Regarding the subject of the post, I now think that Morris dancers should not black up, I was in two minds before. The post which convinced me was this one: Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM Scroll back and read it. If blacked up Morris dancers can in anyway be seen as justifying attitudes like this, or having the support of people with attitudes like this, then they should not do it. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:49 AM i'm in stereo! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM i'm sorry pfr - i think your stereotyping of Lincolnshire people is horrible. its the 2nd largest county in England. The towns are very diverse racially and every other way - always have been. i suppose there are small towns like Alford, Spilsby and Louth in the arse end of nowhere - nobody goes there, so fuck knows what goes on. by and large though, i don't think we're any more insular than the people in Brum and Derby. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM i'm sorry pfr - i think your stereotyping of Lincolnshire people is horrible. its the 2nd largest county in England. The towns are very diverse racially and every other way - always have been. i suppose there are small towns like Alford, Spilsby and Louth in the arse end of nowhere - nobody goes there, so fuck knows what goes on. by and large though, i don't think we're any more insular than the people in Brum and Derby. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:37 AM 👍👍😉 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:29 AM Point taken and understood as I was reading your list.. Us wurzels have also produced our share of outstanding historic figures.. like errrmmm.... I need to wake up a bit more.. But they are unfortunately not representative of the majority of contemporary post thatcher undereducated 'youth'; and the miserable resentful old tories that dominate my home region... 😬 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:07 AM Correction - The colour of their skin is irrelevant in this context. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:05 AM PFR - I was merely pointing out that not all Yellowbellies are 'Yokels', that some (in fact, many) are well educated, cosmopolitan individuals who have made a substantial impact on the history of this country and the world at large. That's all. The colour of their skin is immaterial in this context. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:59 PM ..yeah.. and I just woke up on the sofa after nodding off watching TV 6 and a half hours ago.. just in time to put the bins out... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM Backwoodsman - but how many of them are black or asian...??? I think this is more to the point that Morris-ey alludes to, rather than the sarcastic way he expressed it. Which is what Dick, and maybe yourself, are taking knee jerk exception to. ? Please don't distract from the very valid point that provincial rural areas of UK like Lincoln, Scrumpyshire [where I abode], Shropshire, etc are not as multi ethnically diverse or enlightened, as the great metropolis Cities... I live in big town in my county which is becoming more multi cultural. But only a few miles down the road are villages still predominantly white, insular, and very conservative. However my more modern town is still festering with open resentments and blatant racism from older indigenous residents, and the younger undereducated... I look up to Bristol [where I was educated in the 80s] as a true multi cultural society, yet still with it's own problems and pockets of racists. Where I'd be fairly certain that blackface morris would be met by protesters... whether they be white middle class students, black and / or asian activists , lefties, liberals, christians, muslims, or whatever variations and collectives.. All unified in solidarity by the shared common aim of standing up to xenophobic provocations from the nastier element of UKIP & Brexiteers smugly revelling in victory and a new wave of hostility towards 'immigrants' and any 'alien' cultural values deemed non 'British'... At this difficult time, blackface morris cannot be so naive, stubborn, or insensitive.. especially when transplanting their 'traditional' practices to modern city centres..... Btw.. our local morris don't black up. and are none the less dedicated or enjoyable for lack of courting controversy... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:12 PM Mornin' Al - insomnia got to you too? 😎😄 Yes, you're right, but I was trying to maintain my usual aura of unassuming modesty! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:06 PM be fair John...there's us two, as well |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 10:51 PM Alfred Lord Tennyson, former Poet Laureate. William Rose, designer of the world's first mechanical wrapping machinery. Sir Halford Mackinder, 'The Father of Modern Geography'. Sir John Franklin, Arctic explorer. Dame Sybil Thorndike, celebrated actor. Sir Isaac Newton, scientist and discoverer of gravity. John Wesley, founder of The Methodist Church. Matthew Flinders, mariner, cartographer, and first circumnavigator of Australia. Sir Joseph Banks, naturalist and botanist. Margaret Thatcher, politician and former Prime Minister. Yokels? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 06:43 PM "Whatever, as I said before, we live in a multi-cultural society in 2017 and if Border want to continue the "disguise" conceit then they need to recognise the obvious, even if mistaken, sensitivities of a multi-cultural society. What plays well in yokel Lincolnshire won't get quite the same reception in London." 1.So you inSult the people of LINCS, calling them yokels. 2 TheMorris RING seem to have come out in favour of the tradition, they have a picture on their website of blacked up welsh border morris. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 12 Jan 17 - 06:19 PM Howard Jones and GSS: Almost no one, in the real world, knows what the EFDSS is. So any statement from them on this issue would have no impact. Also, the EFDSS is not going to come out in favour or otherwise of a tradition that has no cogent evidence to support its assertions as to blackface. Whatever, as I said before, we live in a multi-cultural society in 2017 and if Border want to continue the "disguise" conceit then they need to recognise the obvious, even if mistaken, sensitivities of a multi-cultural society. What plays well in yokel Lincolnshire won't get quite the same reception in London. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM i notice the morris ring have a picture on their website of a blacked up border morris side. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 12 Jan 17 - 03:30 PM Michael Fabricant - main claim to fame is that he is the only person in the entire world with more ridiculous hair than Trump. Also there was that thing with llamas. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:58 PM Sounds like a MDE (media driven event) Create the prob, sell you the solution |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:50 PM Senoufou - with you on that... I've never been been in accord with activists, whatever their politics - left or right - who launch into a default mode charade of outrage and offence just for the principle of it... .. and even more wary of over sensitive sanctimonious folks who actually do get their knickers in an almighty twist over the slightest petty offence... 😣 It's to be expected of student militants.. you'd hope they'd mature out of it eventually.. But far too many 'important' politicians regularly make high and mighty prats of themselves on news reports and interviews.... ..For me, it should all about real substantial priorities, and perspective... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM Well done Keith for dredging up two of the biggest Tory twats in the country, Fabricant and Javid, in support of your cause. Any bets on who he'll dig up for no 3, folks? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Senoufou Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:07 PM I've just been talking about this thread with my African husband, and telling him what's being said. His view (I've posted about this before on the other thread on the subject) is that when he looks at blacked-up Morris dancers, the very last thing he would think they were impersonating is black people. They look nothing like any African on this Earth. The first time he saw the phenomenon was at Whittlesea Straw Bear many years ago, and he was astonished to say the least. His first thought (he said afterwards) was,"What the hell are these crazy British people getting up to now? They're all mad!" (Not "How disgraceful, they're poking fun at black people!" He's sat beside three Old Glory men (they use very black make-up indeed) and laughed, pointing out to them that if he danced with them, at least he wouldn't need any make-up. He finds the very idea of 'being offended' ridiculous. He also says that the 'objectors' are deliberately stirring up trouble for their own ends, and NOT because they're offended at all. I just thought his views might be of interest here. |
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