Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II

Subject: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:47 PM

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-Joe Offer-

Hi,

This PART II of "Died for Love" which I've narrowed down to these different variants-- some might be considered separate ballads but they have some of the core stanzas. Some version have a narrative (ballad and some are stanzas of core lyrics (love songs). There may be other related ballads that may be added as we go. This is what I have so far (have not added all the versions to this):

A. Died for Love-- Roud 60 ("I Wish, I Wish") Roud 495
   a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," broadside; 1 sheet; 1/80. British Library 11621.k.4(158), London c.1780.
   b. "I Wish I Wish"
   c. "What a Voice"

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball; Roud 23272
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817.
   e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virginia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection.
   h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   k. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938
   l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966.

C. The Rambling Boy ("I am a wild and a rambling boy") Roud 18830, c. 1765
   a. "The Wild Rover," The Musical Companion (British Library) London, c. 1765.
   b. "Rambling Boy," To which is Added, The New Vagary O, Shepherds I Have Lost My Love, The Drop of Dram, Fight Your Cock in the Morning. Published by W. Goggin of Limerick BM 11622 c.14, dated 1790.
   c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. Same text as "Rambling Boy" printed by William Scott in Greenock no date, probably early 1800s [c. 1812].
   d. "Rambling Boy," broadside J. Pitts, 14 Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London c. 1806
   e. "The Wild Rambling Boy," T. Birt, Printer, 39, Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London c. 1833.
   f. "The Rambling Boy" broadside first line "rake and rambling boy" (Manchester Reference Library, Ballads Vol. 5, page 392) Gardham 5A

D. Brisk Young Lover ("A brisk young sailor courted me,") Roud 60
   a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.
   b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.
   c. ["A Faithful Shepherd"] - from John Clare (b. 1793 in Helpstone), MS dated 1818
   d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850
   e. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by Bebbington, Manchester; c. 1855
   f. "Brisk Young Sailor" sung by Starlina Lovell, gypsy, in Wales area. Collected by Groome, published 1881.
   g. "There Was Three Worms," sung by Mr. Bartlett of Dorset in 1905; collected by H.E.D Hammond. From: Songs of Love and Country Life by Lucy E. Broadwood, Cecil J. Sharp, Frank Kidson, Clive Carey and A. G. Gilchrist; Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 174-203.
   h. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Sung by Thomas (William) Colcombe, Weobley, Herefords, noted F.W. Jekyll, Sep. 1906.
   i. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Tune noted by Francis Jekyll in 1908. Tune and 1st stanza given by Mr. Ford of Scaynes Hill, Sussex; additional words by Mrs. Cranstone. From the George Butterworth Manuscript Collection (GB/12/3).
   j. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron

E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell") Roud 409; Roud 18832
   a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia]: J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860
   b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860
   c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865
   d. "The Butcher Boy" Henry De Marsan's New Comic and Sentimental Singer's Journal, Issue 1, p. 16, NY, 1871
   e. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1880.

F. Foolish Young Girl, or, Irish Boy ("What a foolish girl was I,") Roud 60
a. "The Irish Boy," Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh, c.1770; Clark, The Mansfield Manuscript (2015) pp.4-6.
b. "The Maid's Tragedy," a broadside from St. Bride's Printing Library S447 (my ref BS 1900), c1790.
c. "A New Love Song," Gil, No. 6, printed by Bart. Corcoran, Inn's Quay, Dublin c. 1774?
d. "The Irish Boy," a broadside, Poet's Box, 80 London Street, Glasgow, c. 1872
e. "Sailor Boy," sung by Georgina Reid of Aberdeenshire, about 1882 Duncan C
f."Foolish Young Girl" From John Strachan, of Strichen, b. 1875 heard the song as a child. His mother used to sing it, c. 1885.
g, "Student Boy," sung by W. Wallace of Aberdeenshire about September, 1908 Duncan B
h. "Foolish Young Girl," sung by Jean Elvin, Turriff, 1952- recorded by Hamish Henderson. From "Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition" - Issue 43 - Page 41, 1991.
i. "The Young Foolish Girl," sung by Jeannie Hutchison, Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles (online) SA1974.13.3

G. Queen of Hearts ("The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow") Roud 3195
a. "The Queen of Hearts" Pitts Printer; Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street; 7 Dials, London- c.1820
b. "The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833
c. "Queen of Hearts" Collected Baring-Gould as sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894

H. The Darling Rose ("My love he is a false love,"); an imitation of a minstrel version.
a. "The Darling Rose," a broadside (GPB 585) Air- Beauty and the Beast; October 4, 1851

I. "Tavern in the Town" by F. J. Adams, 1891. ("There is a tavern in the town") Roud 18834
a. "Tavern in the Town" by F. J. Adams, 1891.
b. "There Is a Tavern in the Town" 1883 edition of William H. Hill's Student Songs.
c. "Randoo, Randoo" print from NYC, "Randoo" is South American for "adieu"
d. "The Drunkard Song." Rudy Vallee, 1934

J. Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair") c.1918; Roud18828
a. "The Soldier's Love"- sung by Fred Cottenham (Kent) c.1925
b. Maiden's Prayer- Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas, dated c. 1933.
c. "All You Maidens Sweet and Kind." From Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II" (Caledonian Press, Glasgow, 1947). Recorded (almost) verbatim on Ewan MacColl's "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs" (Riverside, 1959).
d. "Maiden's Prayer- sung by Doreen Cross of Hessle, East Riding, Yorkshire in 1974. From "An East Riding Songster," 1982 by Steve Gardham.
e. "Sailor Boy"- sung by Tony Ballinger of Brockworth. Recorded by Gwilym Davies, Upton St. Leonards, Gloucestershire on 14 April, 1977; Gwilym Davies Collection.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:54 PM

Hi,

I want to thank everyone who contributed to Part I. Now I need help with part II.

Here's a link to "I Wish I was a Maid Again": http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/20269;jsessionid=DB4BCD60CBA4D262CF7F8B187E7EECCA

Please help me with this quick transcription.

I Wish I Was a Maid Again- sung by Bella Stewart. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a drummer[1] boy,
A drummer boy I never knew'd,
But he spoke braid Scotch when he first coorted me.

"When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me through cold frost and snow
And when my apron reached my knee
And he passed me by as if he never knew me."

I wish I wish and I in vain
I wish, I wish I was a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
"Till an apple it grows on an orange tree."

[I'm not the same, will never me][2]
He's like a bird on yonder tree
Some [says] he's blind and cannae see
I wish would it have hap[pened] to me
When I fell into his company

It's [There's] a bar in yon town
My true love had to go out
He'll take a stranger on his knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting on his granny's knee,
Poor[3] thing, poor thing, I'm [she's] dead and gone,
With the green grass growing over her.

1. pronounced "drammer"
2. ?
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.

I tried- let's get right :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 09:23 PM

Hi,

The singer in the last post is Bella (not Belle) Stewart who died around 1964. She was born and brought up in Muir of Ord. She was a traveller. Anyone know more about her?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 10:10 PM

Here's one more:

The link to recording: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/37180;jsessionid=DB4BCD60CBA4D262CF7F8B187E7EECCA

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Charlotte Higgins (1895-1971) of Blairgowrie, Perthshire in July, 1961. Recorded by Hamish Henderson; Maurice Fleming.

1. The blackbird sits in yonder tree,
Some say he's blind and cannae see;
Some say he's blind and cannae see,
So is my true love to me.

2. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til an apple grows on an orange tree.

3. O, I wish, I wish my babe were born,
And sitting on his nurse's knee.
I wish myself was dead and gone,
And green, green grass growing over me.

4. There is a tavern in this toon,
Where my true love gang and he sits down
He takes a damsel on his knee,
He tells her what he once told me.

5. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

6. O I wish my father never knew
O I wish my mother never had come,
I wish the cradle never had rocked
I wish I died when I was young.

7. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I never will be,
Til an apple grows on an orange tree.

Should be about right except stanza 6-- first line esp.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM

Hi,

I'm reposting Jim Carroll's post here because Robertson's version is very close to the two version posted previously:

This is the note given in Porter and Gower's, Jeannie Robertson, Emergent Singer, Formative Voice

(Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25)

What a voice, what a voice, what a voice I hear,
It is like the voice of my Willie dear;
But if I had wings like that swallow flyin,
For I would clasp in the arms of my Billy Boy.

When my apron it hung low,
My true love followed through frost and snow;
But now my apron it's tae my shins,
And he passes me by and he'll ne'er speir in.

It was up onto the white house brae,
That he called a strange girlie to his knee,
And he tellt her a tale which he once told me.

O I wish, I wish, O I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again;
But a maid again I will never be
Till a aipple it grows on a orange tree.

O I wish, I wish that my babe was born,
And smilin' on some nurse's knee;
And for mysel' to be dead and gone,
And the long green grass growin' over me.

For there's a blackbird sits on yon tree;
Some says it's blind and it cannae see;
Some says it's blind and it cannae see,
And so is my true love to me.

73.1 Wish, I Wish (Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25)
Other titles for this song, which Jeannie learned from Maria, are common; it belongs to the "Died of/for Love—The Bold/Brisk Young Sailor/Farmer" story complex. A note by Lucy Broadwood (in Journal of the Folk-Song Society 19 [1915]: 186-87) indicates a probable ancestor of the text in Laing's Broadside Ballads (ca. 1700) with the tide "Arthur's Seat shall be my bed, or Love in despair." The essence of the theme has been compared to stanzas of "Waly, Waly" in Orpheus Caledonius (1725) and the later version in the The Scots Musical Museum (James Johnson 1788: 166; see also Ritson 1794, 1:235-36). The further textual connection with "Jamie Douglas" (Child 204) is well known. Bronson 1959-72, 3:258 firmly believes that the makers of the ballad used a popular lament to fill out its verses, singing it to the same tune. Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume. It appears in the Duncan MS as "The Student Boy," and the first of five tunes in the Greig MS is entided "Arthur's Seat." The most recent Scottish variants are in: Buchan 1962: 61, with the title, "Will Ye Gang, Love?"; Buchan and Hall 1973: 93, a version by Lizzie Mary Hutchison; and MacColl and Seeger 1977: 194-98, sung by Charlotte Higgins. The air used by both Lizzie Mary Hutchison and Charlotte Higgins is closely related to Jeannie's, and she herself uses it for "The Famous Flower of Serving Men" (Child 106). It appears again in MacColl and Seeger 1977 as that for "The Convict Song," sung by John MacDonald (291). The earliest English printed variants are in Kidson 1891: 44-46, Baring Gould and Sheppard 1892: 184—85, and the Hammond MS (1905). Dean-Smith 1954: 63 gives a list of published versions. See also Gilchrist 1938: 192-93 and 1946: 16-17, Lloyd 1953: 103, and Palmer 1973: 278. See also Reeves 1958: 43—45, 90-92; and Reeves 1960: 96-98. There is an analog (in Journal of the Folk-Song Society 27 (1930): 110-12) called "The Shannon Water, or Mabel Kelly," and another immediately following, "Happy the Worm Lies Under the Stone." The Stanford-Petrie collection has it as no. 811, "I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain," and there are two fragments in Bunting 1796. Henry recovered it from Mrs. H. Dinsmore of Coleraine as "The Apron of Flowers" (Huntington and Herrmann 1990: 393). Several versions of the text have been recovered in North America, where it has been linked to "Careless Love" (cf. Lomax 1960: 585). Laws 1957: 61 names it "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" (P25) and notes versions from Indiana and Illinois. Additional texts are in Combs 1925: 205, Cox 1925: 353-57, Korson 1949: 48—49, Owens 1950: 134—35, and Randolph (1950: 268-69); see also the "Lullaby" in Grover n.d.: 24. "Floating" stanzas, lines, and images link the verses to similar stories of unhappy love, such as "The Butcher Boy" (68 above; Laws P24) or "The Sailor Boy" (Laws K12). The imagery of the apron (pregnancy), white house ("alehouse) strange girl, apple on the orange tree, burial beneath long green grass, and the girl are retained in most English and Scottish versions of the text.

Recorded versions-. SA 1952/33; 1953/195; SX 1958/2; 1956/2; Topic 10T52;
Collector CLE 1201 (Jean Ritchie's recording of Jeannie singing stanzas 2, 3, 4, 6); Folktracks FSA 067; Lizzie Higgins, Lismor LIFL 7004; Isla Cameron, Columbia KL 206; Amy Birch, Topic 12TS349; Campbell Family, Topic 12T120; Martin Carthy. Topic 12TS344; Audrey Coppard, Folkways FP 917; Frank Hinchcliffe, Topic 12TS308; Roscoe Holcomb, Folkways FA 2374; Norman Kennedy, Topic 12T178, Folk-Legacy FSS-34; Geoff Ling, Topic 12T236; Walter Pardon, Topic 12TS392; Frank Profitt, Folk-Legacy FSA 1; Jasper Smith, Topic 12TS304; Joseph Taylor, Leaarr LEA 4050; Tom Willett, Topic 12T84.
Additional references-. Child 1882-98, 4:90-105; Gower and Porter 1977: 67-70; Henry 1923-29, 2:194; Joyce 1909: 134; Kennedy 1975: 349, 372; Loesberg 1980 2:60-61; Lyle 1975: 108; Moulden 1979: 13.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 02:29 PM

Hi,

I take issue with Porter and Gower's notes in several places.

1)"Arthur's-Seat Shall be my Bed" is related to "Must I be Bound" and is not related to Robertson's song- there are no stanzas in common.

2) Some "Will Ye Gang, Love?" stanzas are in common but the song AKA "Rashy Muir" also has a different chorus and stanzas not in common. It's a different song.

3. They say, "Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume." Christie's song "Sailing Trade" in Traditional Ballad Airs 1876 is completely different and has no stanzas in common. It is a version of "Sailor Boy/Sweet Willie" which sometimes have the "Dig me a grave" ending-- Christie's version doesn't.

4. At the top the heading is (Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25). "Love Has Brought" is based entirely on Near Woodstock/Constant Lady broadside which is an entirely different song. However, some stanzas have been found in "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 and appeared more recently in Brisk Young Sailor broadsides of the 1800s. There is only one stanza (the last, "For there's a blackbird") that is related. In my opinion the heading is completely wrong.

5. Waly, Waly is based on completely different broadsides mainly the Unfortunate Swain variety. The theme and floating stanzas are similar but the core stanzas are different.

6. A version of Waly, Waly was inserted in "Jamie Douglas" (Child 204) and "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 have nothing to do with that insertion since it's a different love song.

* * * *

A number of broadsides do have stanzas in common with "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 and these Scottish variants.

They include: 1) "The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire," also called "Oxfordshire Tragedy" by Louis Chappell
2) "Nelly's Constancy" c. 1686
3) "Jealous lover"
4) "The Irish Boy," a broadside from Poet's Box, 80 London Street, Glasgow, c. 1872;
5) "The Maid's Tragedy," a broadside from St. Bride's Printing Library S447 (my ref BS 1900), c1790;
6) "A New Love Song," Gil, No. 6, printed by Bart. Corcoran, Inn's Quay, Dublin c. 1803
7) "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart" 1775
8) "The Effects of Love" 1780
9) "Queen of Hearts" mid 1800s

None of these are even mentioned,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

Please excuse my typing and proofing- correction (date of Christie is wrong):

3. They say, "Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume." Christie's song, "Sailing Trade" in Traditional Ballad Airs 1876, is completely different ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 03:02 PM

Bella Stewart:

Sounds like "trav'ller boy" to me. You can just hear the "l."

"When he first [drank Scotch?] when he coorted me."

"He can follow me cauld frost and snow." [Sic.]

"An' if my aperon reached my knee"

"An he passed me by if he ever knew me."

"I wish, I wish, an' I wish in vain.
An' I wish, I wish, wis a maid again.
For a maid, a maid, I'll never be
Till an apple blows in an orange tree."

"I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a black bird in yonder tree,
Some says blind and cawn not see,
I [hope one hope?] what happened me
When I fell in with his company."

"It's a house in yonder town,
My true love [has to?] down,
He'll take a strange girl on her [sic] knee,"

"And sittin' small on his granny's knee,
Poor she, poor [she?] lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 03:56 PM

TY Lighter,

The second correction is still "braid Scotch" or braw/broad/good Scotch since that the ways all the other versions are. When I first heard her I could barely understand a word but after knowing what she "should be singing" I could somewhat understand it.

Gr8 job!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 04:55 PM

But I don't see how "braid Scotch" can immediately follow "first," which is what I seem to hear - not "spoke."

Some Scots word? Travellers' cant?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 06:22 PM

Hi,

I've added Lighter's corrections and only changed two of them:

I Wish I Was a Maid Again- sung by Bella Stewart from Muir of Ord, Scotland. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a trav'ller boy,
A trav'ller boy I never knew'd,
But he spoke braid Scotch when he coorted me.

When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me [thro'] cold frost and snow
And when my aperon[1] reached my knee
And he passed me by [as] if he never knew me.

I wish I wish an' I wish in vain
An' I wish, I wish I wis a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
Till an apple grows in an orange tree.

I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a blackbird in yonder tree,
Some says [he's] blind and cannot see
I hope, I hope would happened [to] me,
When I fell in with his company.

It's a house in yonder town
My true love had to go down,
He'll take a strange girl on his[2] knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting small on his granny's knee,
Poor[3] she, poor she, lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her.

1. apron
2. originally "her"
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 07:09 PM

It might be "But she, poor thing...."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 09:59 PM

TY Lighter

I'll listen once more.

What is obvious is the lack of any kind of coherent song notes (see What a Voice notes above). There seems to be little scholarly agreement or understanding of the underlying sources. Some of this is due to lack of information but it seems the initial, usually faulty, notes from the past are being regurgitated. At least Steve Gardham has tried to split up Roud 60 and it seems more splitting needs to be done.

My brief study has shown which I've separated by letter designation so far A-H. With my B version (see above) tentatively included-- although it's a different plot. Steve warned me it would be difficult!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 09:37 AM

HI Richie,
Way back in 1985, Tristram Coffin tried to suggest some ways forward with this lament type in an essay you might find useful. He used 'Green Grows the Laurel' as his starting point but lots of what he had to say was relevant to 'Died for Love' songs. The essay is in Narrative Folksong New Directions eds. Edwards and Manley, p59. You should easily get a copy at your side. I don't fully agree with his approach as opposed to the stemmatic way we go about it, but it is useful to look at another approach, and his ideas would be helpful in understanding the whole complex genre.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 10:25 AM

TY Steve,

I've got some corrections of Charlotte Higgins version. It should be correct now. Charlotte sings the same melody as Jennie Roberston, who married a Higgins and was a cousin of Jock Higgins who was Charlotte's second husband. Charlotte claims on her 1955 recording that she heard her great grandmother sing this song. It was "my great granny's song." In her 1955 recording she adds this stanza:

It's when my apron it was new,
It wis a bricht and bonny blue
But noo my apron's tae my knee,
He cares nae mair what becomes o me.

This was her first stanza of that session- she stopped twice. Charlotte Higgins (nee Riley) was born in Perkmass, Lumphanon, Aberdeenshire, in 1893. Her father Thomas Lucas from Bristol was a fisherman who arranged for Charlotte to be brought up by the Riley's a family of travellers after her mother Mary Paul died.

Her first husband a MacGuire, was killed in the First World War and her second husband, Jock Higgins was a cousin of Jeannie Roberston who married a Higgins. Here's the corrected text (see stanza 6) from Charolotte's 1961 recording:

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Charlotte Higgins (1895-1971) of Blairgowrie, Perthshire in July, 1961. Recorded by Hamish Henderson; Maurice Fleming.

1. The blackbird sits in yonder tree,
Some say he's blind and cannae see;
Some say he's blind and cannae see,
So is my true love to me.

2. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

3. O, I wish, I wish my babe were born,
And sitting on his nurse's knee.
I wish myself was dead and gone,
And green, green grass growing over me.

4. There is a tavern in this toon,
Where my true love gangs and he sits doon
He takes a damsel on his knee,
He tells her what he once told me.

5. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

6. O I wish my father ne'er had whistled,
O I wish my mother never had sung,
I wish the cradle never had rocked
I wish I died when I was young.

7. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I never will be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 11:40 AM

Hi,

I've added the final two corrections: "But he first [spoke] braid Scotch"; and "But she, poor thing," suggested by Lighter:

I Wish I Was a Maid Again (final transcription)- sung by Bella Stewart. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955. Transcription by Richard Matteson and Lighter, 2017.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a trav'ller boy,
A trav'ller boy I never knew'd,
But he first [spoke] braid Scotch when he coorted me.

When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me [thro'] cold frost and snow
And when my aperon[1] reached my knee
And he passed me by [as] if he never knew me.

I wish I wish an' I wish in vain
An' I wish, I wish I wis a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
Till an apple grows in an orange tree.

I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a blackbird in yonder tree,
Some says [he's] blind and cannot see
I hope, I hope would happened [to] me,
When I fell in with his company.

It's a house in yonder town
My true love had to go down,
He'll take a strange girl on his[2] knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting small on his granny's knee,
But[3] she, poor thing, lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her.

1. apron
2. originally "her"
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM

Richie, now I'm wondering if "hope" in "I hope what happened me" is really a different word, or a slip of the tongue for another word, like "weep" (which makes perfect grammatical sense in British English).

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 03:21 PM

OK, ty lighter you excel at detail work!

I'm not sure of the source of this version. It was sung by Taffies
(slang word for Welshman) collected in an orchard, by Brendan Behan?
I assume borstal is youth detention centre in the United Kingdom.

From his 1958 autobiographical book Borstal Boy by Brendan Behan

And the last and serious song:

In Liverpool where I did dwell,
A Borstal boy I loved so well,
He courted me, and stole my heart away,
And then with me, he would not stay.

Her father dear came 'ome one night,
'E found 'is daughter out of sight,
'E went upstairs and the door 'e broke,
And 'e found 'er 'anging by a rope.

'E got 'is shiv, and cut 'er down
And on 'er writ, these words 'e found,
"Oh, father dear, waht a fool was I,
To 'ang myself for a Borstal boy.

When I'm in my grave, and dead,
A granite stone lay at my 'ead,
And at my feet put a turtle dove,
To show my friends I died for love."

Anyone have any additional info on this song? Who are the taffies singing it in his book- farm workers?

Richie

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 03:33 PM

Interesting that Welshmen are shown singing in a music-hall Cockney accent!

Maybe they (and maybe the soldiers who sang the WW2 versions) thought of it largely as a kind of black humor.

Cf. the less ambiguously derisive "She was Poor but She Was Honest," also generally sung in a Cockney accent.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM

Why Cockney, Jon? They're just not pronouncing their aitches so it could be almost anywhere in Britain.

I can vouch for the fact that the WWII and after versions were sung as serious sentimental songs alongside the vilest filthy mysogenistic and racist material. My uncle who was an acclaimed bar-room entertainer would sing this in all seriousness and reverence followed by the Virgin Sturgeon! All manner of material was sung at the sods operas in the British forces as I'm sure they were in other countries.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:11 PM

Although I don't recognise the word 'shiv' for knife Wikipedia gives it as fairly common and possibly Romani cant in origin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:32 PM

Known to all connoisseurs of American gangster stories and films of the '20s,'30s, and '40s.

In the U.S., mainly an urban expression.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM

Hi,

I'm trying to wrap up the UK versions for now so I can start on the UK versions. I need help finding the text or recording online of these recordings:

1. The Alehouse- sung by Elizabeth Cronin of Macroom, Co. Cork, on the anthology Sailormen and Servingmaids (The Folk Songs of Britain Volume 6; Caedmon 1961; Topic 1970).

2. The Butcher Boy- sung by Duncan Williamson (Fife) - Kyloe CD 101. Recorded by Mike Yates around 2000. Also on his Traveller's Joy CDs.

3. There Is a Tavern in the Town- sung by Emma Vickers from Lancashire in a recording made by Fred Hamer in Autumn 1963 that he printed in his 1967 EFDS book of English folk songs, Garners Gay. This recording was included in 1989 on the EFDSS cassette The Leaves of Life: The Field Recordings of Fred Hamer and in 1998 on the EFDSS anthology A Century of Song.

I think I've got close to 200 UK versions (190) so far. TY for your help. They can be accessed here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-7-died-for-love.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:03 AM

Richie,
I've probably got all of these. Will send them later.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:16 PM

>close to 200 UK versions

Wow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 02:57 PM

And there's probably quite a few Richie hasn't got yet, but don't forget we're talking about a whole genre of songs here. We've identified at least 10 so far that should be considered separate songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 05:00 PM

Hi,

TY Steve, Lighter.

Most are:
Roud 60 Brisk Young Lover
       Foolish Young Girl; Irish Boy
Roud 495 I Wish I wish
Roud 18828 Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair")

I noticed a sub-set of Roud 60 called "There's an Alehouse" and after looking at the versions the first stanza of Brisk Young Sailor is left off almost as if it was once added on. I think that's why MacColl didn't mention the Brisk Young Lover songs.

I'm wondering also about Pitman's Love song and the 'I Wish I wish" songs. Is there a relationship? Lloyd apparently thought they were related.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM

Here's Llyod's version of Pitman's Love song that he revived from John Bell of Newcastle whose version dates c.1830:

I Wish I Wish (or: the pitman's love song)as sung by A. L. Lloyd

    (Trad)

    I wish my love she was a cherry
    A-growing on yon cherry tree
    And I myself a bonnie blackbird
    How I would peck that sweet cherry

    I wish my love she was a red rose
    A-growing on yon garden wall
    And I myself a drop of dew
    How on that red rose I would fall

    I wish my love was in a little box
    And I myself to carry the key
    I'd go in to her whenever I'd a mind
    And I'd bear my love good company

    I wish my love she was a grey ewe
    A-grazing by yonder riverside
    And I myself a fine black ram
    Oh on that ewe how I would ride

    My love she's bonnie, my love she's canny
    And she's well favoured for to see
    And the more I think on her my heart is set upon her
    And under her apron I fain would be

    I wish my love she was a bee-skip
    And I myself a bumble-bee
    That I might be a lodger within her
    For she's sweeter than the honey or the honeycomb tea.

This is obviously a different song but it does have the I Wish opening. I've seen Pittman's Love song grouped with version of out ballad I Wish I Wish.

It's curious that many of the "I Wish I Wish" variants (like the three posted in this thread by Scottish singers) also have the alehouse stanza- does that mean they aren't versions of I Wish I Wish anymore?

Aren't they all the same- whether two stanza like Joseph Taylor's, or threes stanzas or six stanzas?

The singers, the Scottish School and Roud consider the alehouse stanza to be part of I wish. So how are they separate variants?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:52 PM

Hi,

Heres a trivia question. Where did the text from the 4th stanza of Butterworth's "A Brisk Young Sailor" come from?

FOLK SONGS FROM SUSSEX published in 1913- tune Mr. Ford.

[7] A brisk young sailor courted me

A brisk young sailor courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He won my heart with a free good-will,
He's false, I know, but I love him still.

There is an alehouse in yonder town,
Where my love goes and sits him down,
He takes another girl on his knee,
And don't you think that's a grief to me?

A grief to me! I'll tell you why,
Because she's got more gold than I,
Her gold will waste and her beauty blast,
And she'll become like me at last.

O what a foolish girl was I
To give my heart to a sailor boy,
A sailor boy although he be,
I love him better than he loves me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM

Hi Richie,
With songs of this type it doesn't make any difference what others in earlier years have said about them. In my opinion the only way to make this very difficult decision for your own purposes is to amass as many of the extant versions as possible, with broadside texts playing a primary role, and initially see which ones can easily be separated from the pack. You might want to impose your own rough rules in order to differentiate as I have done. You've already set me thinking about separating Rambling Boy and its Answer which I had put together.

Stanzas that start with 'I wish' are extremely common in songs of this type and must not be taken as relating one song to another.

Another approach is to establish stanzas and groups of stanzas that should be considered commonplaces and then leave them out of the equation initially. The 2/3 suicide stanzas occur in at least 4 of the songs under consideration for instance. The 'Dig my grave' stanza has attached itself to a whole host of songs.

You only have to look at the 17th century texts I sent you to see that several of the stanzas in 'Deep in Love' were already commonplaces then. At various points in the last 4 centuries both broadside writers and singers have strung together whole catalogues of these stanzas to make new songs. I said it wouldn't be easy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

Cruel Father, my B, has a distinct plot but there aren't many versions. Two broadsides and the chapbook Answer and two trad versions-- the other trad versions from the US are weak connections but should be included. I already said it was a different ballad. However it does have the opening of Rambling Boy, the suicide and the "died for love" ending.

Cruel Father is related to Queen of Hearts-- which borrows its plot- although not in a convincing way. It's easy to see Rambling Boy, Cruel Father and Queen of Hearts forming another related family. The do have the "Died for love ending and for all practical purposes disappeared in by the mid-1900s.

As far as "Brisk Young Lover/There is an Alehouse"-- I'm now thinking Alehouse was first and Brisk Young Lover added an opening stanza.

The Scotch versions go back a ways and I believe the "alehouse" stanza was part of the "I Wish I Wish" versions. So you can't say the "I Wish" versions are versions without the "alehouse stanza." I posted the three Scotch version to make this point-- the "I wish" songs are not little fragments with the "I wish" stanza-- they also have the alehouse stanza.

The Alehouse/I Wish and Foolish Young Girl are fairly similar and there are two endings: 1. Til and apple grows on an orange tree and 2) she gathers flowers, makes her bed and dies of a broken heart [Constant Lady].

There are a number of "Butcher Boy" versions in the UK and the version from the US/Canada may have be adapted in the US but they also may have come from the UK initially.

I'm starting the North American version very soon so that should unlock more of the mystery,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 09:54 AM

Until I see evidence to the contrary I'm happy to accept the Butcher's Boy was crystallised in America and that any British versions are derived from or influenced by the American oecotype. I believe that one British version actually mentions 'Jersey City'.

FWIW my thoughts on evolution of BYS:
The very influential c1840 broadside was derived from the 18thc 'The Lady's Lamentation'. As far as I can see the 'Brisk Young Sailor' first stanza is present in all early versions where the 'alehouse' stanza is also present so they came together as a job lot (along with the 'belly low' stanza). All 3 occur together right into the collecting period in the longer versions so from at least 18thc to modern day.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:02 AM

Thanks for the pointers Steve. "Butcher Boy" came over way before the printed sheet music of 1860 with Jersey City- that's obvious before even looking at the versions.

Started the US/Canada headnotes- not too long and with usual errors but here's the intro so far:

The origin and fundamental sources of The Butcher Boy have befuddled leading US musicologists from Kittredge(1916) to Cox (1925) and on to Belden (1940). The main source of confusion appears to be the underlying broadsides that in most cases were unavailable. Kittredge, however, had at his disposal the Harvard Library and Belden, despite mentioning two related early sources, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire says, "The location is Sheffield park in Pitts's broadside of that title, which comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad. . .". Belden was unaware that the Pitts broadside was a later printing of Sheffield Park that had borrowed stanzas from "The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock" broadside which Chappell called "The Oxfordshire Tragedy[]."

Leading UK musicologists fared no better. The web of confusion that ensnared variants of "Died for Love," "Love has Brought Me To Despair," "Deep in Love" with "Waly, Waly" and "Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William" is still being regurgitated today. When Broadwood pointed out the melody of "Sailing Trade[]" was used in a version of "I Wish, I Wish" some how the compleely different texts became similar and the ballads were related.

With Steve Garham's assistance Steve Roud broke up his Roud 60 into a number distinct groups with different Roud numbers. However, the job is not complete and because of the mixing of stanzas it's difficult for any unanimous categorization. For example, look at The Traditional Ballad Index's entry for Roud 18830 which they assume is variants of Cruel Father but instead is Rambling Boy.

In the US Kittredge began by saying, "The piece appears to be an amalgamation of "The Squire's Daughter" (also known as "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid") with "There is an Alehouse in Yonder Town" (well known as a student song in this country under the title "There is a Tavern in the Town")."

"The Cruel Father" ballads are somewhat different ballads with a different plot: The cruel father when he finds out his daughter is in love with a prentice boy sends him to sea where he is killed in a battle by a cannonball. The prentice's ghost haunts the father that night who come home to find his daughter has hung herself with a rope. She leaves a note blaming her father for her death.

The similarity of Cruel Father with "The Rambling Boy," is the opening line, the suicide and the "Died for Love" ending; with the Butcher Boy" the similarity is the suicide and "died for love" ending; with the later reduction "The Maidens Prayer" the similarity is the suicide and the "died for love" ending. So it's clear that Kittredge's statement shouldn't have "Squire's Daughter" in it. Certainly "There is an Alehouse" is very similar but is missing the suicide. Rambling Boy has the suicide and the reason for the suicide is similar. When Kittredge says Alehouse is "well known as a student song in this country" it should be noted that the similarity is that one stanza was taken from Alehouse/Brisk Young Lover and There is a Tavern was written around that one stanza-- it's not as if they are the same song-- but obviously the stanza is similar. So Kittredge's statement became the standard-- but in 1925 Cox refined the amalgamation--Cox now based the ballad on four different songs instead of two.

Cox states in Folk Songs of the South[], "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy").

Cox kept Kittredge's two fundamentals (The Cruel Father, as pointed out-- is a poor choice) and added Sheffield Park and Sweet William. Additionally he said that Alehouse was an abreviation of Brisk Young Sailor which has an added opening stanza[]. Cox did not know that Sheffield Park, the Pitts broadside, was reworked by adding stanzas of another broadside[] (see above) and it is the other broadside's stanzas that are found mixed with Butcher Boy. Sheffield Park was printed circa 1770 as "The Unfortunate Maid" and later about 1790 as "The Youth from Sheffield Park." The Pitt's print of the early 1800s was reworked with a new ending derived from stanzas of Constant Lady." So it's not really Sheffield Park but Constant Lady that should be mentioned by Cox. Sweet William was mentioned by the English writers[] as having the same melody under the title, The Sailing Trade[]. There are other similarities-- Kidson's Lancashire version has the same ending stanzas-- but again the plot is different (same as Cruel father's plot is different)-- alas and alack!!! The Butcher Boy is not made up of Sweet William although the endings stanzas may be held in common.

Fifteen years later Belden and the Missouri Folklore Society published "Ballads and Songs" named, I believe, after Kittredge's 1917 article in the JAF of the same title. Belden's headnotes contend (as mentioned earlier) that Sheffield Park "comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad." Belden is in fact referring to the Pitt's reworded broadside and the added stanzas of "Constant Lady" as being "closest." The two early broadsides he mentions-- 1. The Deceased Maiden Lover and 2. The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire are essentially the same. The Deceased Maiden Lover, however similar, is not the ballad used-- it's 2. Constant Lady. "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is a reworking of lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forsaken Lover's Complaint" c. 1611. Belden's assertion may be responsible for "Deceased Maiden Lover" being listed as a version of Died For Love in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, by the editor Gale Huntington.

Yes, it's a tangled web.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 08:31 AM

And you've just scratched the surface! What you've mainly learnt here is to take no notice of previous research and do your own. The confusion around 18830 is all down to me, but I'm still not fully convinced it can easily be separated into 2 distinct songs. On narrative certainly but there are too many hybrids if that is the case. You are slowly convincing me and I need to take a closer look at the problem when the book is finished.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

I'm still wrapping up UK versions.

I finally have the transcription of For Love by Willie Mathieson
Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/15020;jsessionid=9AA340DD3D5A4D6DCDEA32656021217A
One of teh stanzas was sung in the wrong order, which I've changed.

For Love- from Willie Mathieson, learned from Annie Massie, maid at East Toddlehills, about 1894.

My lovie stands in yon stable door
A combing doon his yellow hair.
His curly locks they enticed me
But I'll never tell you who is he.

Chorus: Oh will ye gang love and leave noo
Oh will ye gang love and leave me noo
Will ye forsake a lover true
And go with the one ye never knew.

I was in the garden the other day
I pulled a rose baith fresh and gay,
I pulled the violets as they grew blue
But I little kent what love can do.

I was standing at the door one day
I saw my love go across the moor
My heart grew sick and my eyes grew dim
To think my bonnie love left me ahin

As lang as my apron it did bide low
He followed me through frost and snow
But noo its up aye tae my chin
My love gangs by but he comes nae in.

There is a Tavern in the toon
My love gaes in and he sits him doon
He taks anithcr girl on his knee
And isna that a grief to me.

A grief to me and I'll tell you why
Because this girl has more gold than I.
But her gold it will waste and her beauty fade
And this poor girl she will be like me.

But I'll tak aff my hose and sheen
And I'll follow him through Aberdeen,
But I'll scorn him as he scorned me
But I'll never tell you who is he.

You'll dig my grave both wide and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the centre two turtle doves
To let them know that I died for love.

This is a hybrid of "Will Ye Gang Love" and "Died For Love." The title is taken from the latter,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM

HI Richie, as I'm sure you're aware this is a definite and simple hybrid. the first 2 stanzas are from 'Deep in Love' group, the chorus I think is peculiar to Scottish versions so probably added there as is the link stanza 3. The following 3 are from BYS, the next is a local composition and the last a commonplace.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

Yes, I forgot to mention stanza two is from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain but it's "Will Ye Gang Love" which borrows stanzas.

Steve-- Here's an interesting tidbit you may not know and I didn't mention earlier, the first stanza "What A Voice" is similar to (common source)or based on the broadside "A new song called William and Nancy or The two hearts"- a version is in the Bodleian but it's also published in Belfast by Alex Mayne of High Street.

An Irish version was collected and the stanza appeared:

'What voice , what voice now is yon I hear?
It's like the voice of my Willie dear.
Oh, had I the wings, love, I'd feel no fear,
But fly forever till I knew thee near.'

The text is similar but no other stanzas seem to be in common- let me know what you think,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

I have more info on "Early early". There's a recording by Robert Cinnamond, "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" by Peter Kennedy and one online The Two Hearts by Geordie Robertson which begins:

The Two Hearts

Early, early by the break of day,
Doon by yon green field I chanced to stray
I spied a fair maid [continues]

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/68916;jsessionid=3E5997AE75B28D710569B0EA88412D32

A copy of th Irish broadside has been published in Ulster Folklife. Traditional Folk index calls it "Died for Love " III

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:46 PM

Hi,

The Roud number for "Two Hearst/"Early, Early, by the Break of Day" appears to be Roud 60 and that should be changed since this is a different but related song.

I'm working on the US songs today. It appears that Jim Crow's [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice's] "Radoo, Radoo" published in 1840 is the origin of "There is a Tavern in the Town" or at least it was reworked by F.J. Adams in 1891, as a Tin-Pan Alley/late minstrel type song.

Radoo means "Adieu" and is called an old Creole song or as sung by African Americans from South-America. More information about Radoo or the origin of this 1840 song is needed. Here's a link to the 1840 song:

https://books.google.com/books?id=SSJYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT123&dq=%22Radoo+Radoo%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf79b7oejRAhXGOSYKHWp6BOEQ6AE

From: "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840.

Radoo Radoo
(Adieu)

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free,
And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me,
Or shall I act a foolish part,
And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart.

Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down,
Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down,
And every word that I shall write,
A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye.

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

There are two stanzas (two and three) that are vaguely related to the Died for Love songs and their relatives ("Must I Go Bound.)" Steve sent me this but probably didn't know it's origin. It was reprinted after the success of "There is a Tavern."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:57 PM

The 1840 date looks extremely suspect to me! Where is this 'Jim Crow's Vagaries? I have books on Rice and none of them mention this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:16 PM

Hi,

Two corrections from last post: Title is "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" and first and last verse the second radoo should have two "oo's" as radoo.

Adams based his verses on text from the "Died for Love" ballads and borrowed the form and chorus from "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" a minstrel song attributed to Jim Crow [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] in "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840. Here's text of There is a Tavern in the Town" [original sheet music at Levy]:

There is a Tavern in the Town. Song and Chorus. The Season's Success. Words and music by F.J. Adams, 1891

There is a tavern in the town, in the town
And there my dear love sits him down, [sits him down]
And drinks his wine 'mid laughter free
And never, never thinks of me.

Chorus
Fare thee well, for I must leave thee
Do not let the parting grieve thee
And remember that the best of friends must part, [must part]
Adieu, adieu, kind friends adieu, adieu, adieu
I can no longer stay with you, stay with you
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree
And may the world go well with thee.

He left me for a damsel dark, damsel dark
Each Friday night they used to spark, [used to spark]
And now my love once true to me
Takes that dark damsel on his knee

Oh! dig my grave both wide and deep, wide and deep
Put tombstones at my head and feet, head and feet
And on my breast carve a turtle dove
To signify I died of love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:21 PM

Steve- I put the link to Radoo on that post above text. The date is 1840.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:29 PM

Although "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" is attributed to Jim Crow [AKA Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] that doesn't mean Rice wrote it or knew the songs in the book. None-the-less it's still attributed to Jim Crow as the author, dated 1840.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:39 PM

Steve:

Printed: Orlando Hodgson 111 Fleet Street, London

You should know he printed at that location between 1836-44.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:07 PM

Hi,

I don't have access to the the US printing by Turner & Fisher, New York & Philadelphia [no date given]

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:28 PM

Yes but Radoo is not in that songster. There are several songsters on that page and the one Radoo is in was printed much later by Fortey probably after my sheet music was published.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM

Hi Steve- if you click the link it takes you to the book, "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" dated 1840.

According to several sources[] Radoo is a Creole word for "adieu" and in the 1888 book, "The Right Honourable" it was called "a genuine plantation song." According to the authors, Radoo was learned by Zenobia from a "Southern States woman" who heard it sung on plantation presumably before the Civil War. It was called a Civil-War song and was the African-American "attempt at adieu."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:34 PM

OK,

I see now-- it was in W. S. Fortey's "The Popular Songster" and also in W. S. Fortey's "Yankee Barnum's Songster"- I didn't ck to see other editions were combined.

What did you think of the info in 1888 book, "The Right Honourable"?

Here's the link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+1888+Radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSqObj3Oj

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:45 PM

Hi,

Even though "The Right Honourable" is fiction I suppose (the music is provided), it's still dated 1888 which is three years before Adam's 1891 sheet music.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 10:14 PM

Hi,

Now I see Adam's sheet music which I downloaded is not the first edition and I suppose the presumed edition 1881 edition is missing so the info in the 1888 book means: Much to do about nothing :) So I answered my own question. Back to the drawing board.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:56 AM

No worries!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM

Hi,

Still looking at Radoo, and There is a Tavern. Radoo has the Must I go bound (Shall I Go Bound) stanza which is found in two of the US versions I've put on so far. Here it's the last stanza:

Must I go bound, must I go free,
Must I love a young man that won't love me?
O no, O no, that never shall be,
Till apples grow on an orange tree.
[Jane Hicks Gentry Hot Springs, NC on August 23, 1916 Sharp B]

This indicated along with versions collected by Randolph that the "Must I Go bound" text was fairly common in the US and at least in two versions of Butcher Boy. Randloph mention a text from Roxburghe, which I presume is:

Shall I be bound, that may be free?
Shall reason rule my raging mind?
Shall I love him that loves not me?
No, though I wink, I am not blind.
[Maid's Revenge upon Cupid and Venus]

Radoo was published by 1884 [Bodleian date 1877-1884] and I still think it predates Tavern in the Town and was used in its creation along with Butcher Boy.

I have a copy of William H. Hills There is a Tavern in the Town dated 1883 from "Students' Songs." Even though he had edition in 1880 and 1881 I think the 1883 date is about right. From the Bodleian print comes this information:

Written by W.H. Hills. Arranged by B. Forms
Music Francis Day & Hunter London, W.

Which is not in the Students' Songs editions. Hill's copyright was granted in 1884:

Original entry, Apr. 8, 1884, no. 7553. THERE IS A TAVERN IN THE TOWN; by William H. Hills. [47 (C) by William H. Hills, Boston, Mass., as the author, in renewal for 28 years. Renewal no. 1786, Mar. 30, 1911. Original entry in Students songs.

Hill's text is missing a stanzas in Adam's 1891 version [at Levy] and there is one text change of one half a line. It's rumored that F.J. Adam's version was first published in 1881 but I have no proof of that yet. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:19 PM

'Shall I be bound' must be treated as a commonplace. It's wording varies quite a lot so it might be possible to trace its closest source using that information, but don't just look at our 2 songs. It could have come from elsewhere.

Your link to The Right Honourable didn't work. It just took me to Google books where there were no full texts available. I spotted the likely chapter but couldn't get access.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

Here's the link again to The Right Honourable, 1888: https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjrrng3urRAhWG

It seems to me that Radoo would precede "There is a Tavern" which borrowed from it to make the chorus. Right now I have them both appearing around 1883- since the Bodleian has 1877-1884 and both appear in different songbooks for R. Marsh.

Steve, can you date either of the Fortey Songsters? I was thinking c. 1890 but that doesn't help prove an earlier date.

One correction: in my last post the extra stanza appears in William Hill's later "Students' Songbook" editions but not his 1883 one. Hill's 1883 text and Adam's 1891 text are nearly identical. I can find little info on F.J, Adams now- I did find some several years ago but I can't find it.

I'm finishing up Sharp's US versions. Here's a version in Sharp's EFSSA II, 1932. Clearly related but not really a version. Hmmmm!

No. 190
I Love my Love- Sung by Mrs. ELLEN WEBB at Cane River, Burnsville, N. C, Sept. 21, 1918
Hexatonic (no 4th).

1. All my friends fell out with me
Because kept my love's company;
But let them say or do what they will,
I love my love with a free good will.

2 Over the mountain I must go,
Because my fortune is so low;
With an aching heart and a troubled mind
For leaving my true love behind.

3 The Powers above look down and see
The parting of true love and me.
'Tis as hard to part the moon and sky
As it is to part true love and I.

4 When I have gold she has her part,
And when I have none she has my heart;
And she gained it too with a free good will,
And upon my honour I love her still.

5 The winter's past and summer's come,
The trees are budding one by one;
And when my true love chooses to stay,
I'll stay with her till the break of day.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM

Hi,

Steve, the music (Right Honourable, 1888) is on p. 171, just move up a little past the music to where it's called "A wild little American negro song. . ." Even though it's a fictional account the music is provided and there would be no logical reason for them to "make up" facts about it. They call it a Civil War song and imply that it's an older plantation song.

Not enough proof but so far I've not found any info about it or even the word "Radoo" as being a known slang for "adieu."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM

Hi,

This is another clearly related version that has to many changes to be a version-- with stanzas similar to perhaps to Careless Love:

Sharp's EFSSA, II 1932 edition p. 268:

No. 189
Every Night when the Sun goes in- Sung by Mrs. EFFIE MITCHELL
at Burnsville, N. C , Oct. 6, 1918

1. Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
I hang down my head and mournful cry.
True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn,
True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn,
True love, don't weep nor mourn for me,
I'm going a way to Marble town.

2 I wish to the Lord that train would come (3 times)
To take me back where I come from.
True love, don't weep, etc.

3 It's once my apron hung down low (3 times)
He'd follow me through both sleet and snow.
True love, don't weep, etc.

4 It's now my apron's to my chin (3 times)
He'll face my door and won't come in.
True love, don't weep, etc.

5 I wish to the Lord my babe was born,
A-sitting upon his pappy's knee,
And me, poor girl, was dead and gone,
And the green grass growing over me.
True love, don't weep, etc.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM

Fortey was printing over a very long period. I haven't got the dates handy. However a lot of the songs in the same songster are datable. I'll have a look. Still can't get at the book at all. What do I click on when I get to the initial page?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:47 PM

Hi,

This is the longest Sharp MS version not published:

The Blue Eyed Boy- sung by Hezekiah Crane of Flag Pond, Tennessee on September 3, 1916. Collected by Cecil Sharp.

In North Carolina I once did dwell
With a blue-eyed boy I loved so well,
He courted me my life away
And then with me he would not stay.

He took me to some farmer's house,
And sit me down upon a chair,
And took a strange girl on his knee,
He told her that he wouldn't tell me.

I know, I know, the reason why,
She has more gold and silver than I;
Her gold will rust, her silver will fly,
And then she will be as poor as I.

I'll go upstairs and I'll sit down,
Take a pen and ink and write it down,
I'll lay my head upon the bed,
And think of what dear mother said:

Go dig a grave both wide and deep,
Place a marble stone at my head and feet,
and on my heart place a snow-white dove,
To show the world I died for love.

    And this is one of the shortest ones:

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Jacob Sowder of Callaway, Virginia on 17 August, 1918 from Sharp's MSS.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish I were a child again;
But that I ain't I never will be
Till apples grow on a willow tree.

Your gold shall rust and silver shall fly
But constant love shall never die.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:56 PM

Steve:

When you click on "The Right Honourable" link -- it takes you to between page 171 and 172. you should see top of page 172. Scroll down on the right bar control and you'll see the music.

or,

Just enter: "The Right Honourable" Radoo
at Google books and it'll take you there.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:28 PM

Hi,

Just included "Every Night When the Sun Goes In" on my site as one of many related ballads and songs: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx

It has a photo by Sharp of Effie Mitchell, two of her children and her mother, Hannah.

There's a better photo at R.V. Williams site but I couldn't figure out how to copy it.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:13 PM

Hi,

Somehow I'm back in Ireland!!!

Here's a poem which is a rewrite of our "Died for Love" songs. I'm only given the first part that relates to out ballads;

From: Day and Night Songs; by William Allingham 1855


XII. THE GIRL'S LAMENTATION.
   (To an old Irish Tune.)

With grief and mourning I sit to spin;
My Love pass'd by, and he didn't come in;
He passes by me, both day and night,
And carries off my poor heart's delight.

There is a tavern in yonder town,
My Love goes there and he spends a crown,
He takes a strange girl upon his knee,
And never more gives a thought to me.

Says he, "We'll wed without loss of time,
And sure our love's but a little crime;"—
My apron-string now its wearing short,
And my Love he seeks other girls to court.

O with him I'd go if I had my will,
I'd follow him barefoot o'er rock and hill;
I'd never once speak of all my grief
If he'd give me a smile for my heart's relief.

In our wee garden the rose unfolds,
With bachelor's-buttons, and marigolds;
I'll tie no posies for dance or fair,
A willow twig is for me to wear.

For a maid again I can never be,
Till the red rose blooms on the willow tree.
Of such a trouble I heard them tell,
And now I know what it means full well.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:01 PM

Looking at the 16th/17th century versions of 18829 I think an attempt should be made to separate 'Waly Waly' from 'The Unfortunate Swain'. In their earliest forms they only have 1 stanza in common and that is the 'leaned my back against an oak' stanza. The probability is that the English lament borrowed this from the Scottish but it could be the other way round.

The seminal 'Unfortunate Swain' seems to have been pieced together sometime in the middle of the 18th century. At least 4 of its stanzas come from 17th century ballads. The first 4 stanzas and the 9th are all aabb pattern and 5 to 8 are all abab. Whilst the narrator in printed versions can be male or female in roughly equal numbers the earliest seem to be the male narrator ones. In later versions as one would expect the order of stanzas starts to break down, and goes completely to pot in oral versions.

'The earliest 'Waly Waly' I have is 1727 Ramsay in 5 double quatrains. Orpheus Caledonius of 1733 with tune is in quatrains and has one quatrain different to Ramsay. 'Oh wherefore should I busk my head' is replaced by 'When cockle shells turn silver bells' stanza. Herd/Percy etc. follow Ramsay.

Before looking closer at oral versions where there are lots of hybrids can you add to these 16th/17th century versions?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:05 PM

Richie & Steve, do you have (or want?) the version of "I Wish, I Wish," recorded by the Dubliners in the '60s? I haven't checked, but it's interestingly different from what I see here.

Rewritten lyrics, perhaps, but still essentially "folky."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:16 PM

Hi Lighter,

I do want Dubliner's version. It's helpful if their source is given- although it may be difficult to ascertain.

Steve, I'm not sure of the reason you are bringing "Waly, Waly" into this thread now- I only sense it has something to do with "Must I go Bound,"-- just a guess. I have considered including it as an appendix.

I assume you've seen the online article by Jürgen Kloss, October 2010/July 2012 "The Water Is Wide" The History Of A "Folksong". Here's a link: http://www.justanothertune.com/html/wateriswide.html What do you think of it?

The other article and it's on my web-site is: Some Notes on "O Waly Waly" by J. W. Allen; Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 7, No. 3 (Dec., 1954), pp. 161-171. Here's a link: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/some-notes-on-o-waly-waly-by-j-w-allen-1954.aspx What do you think of that article?

* * * *

Steve,
Do you think either Fortey songster with Radoo is before 1880?
What did you think of the Radoo info in The Right Honourable, 1888?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:47 AM

Hi,

In Ramsay's "The tea-table miscellany" there's a ballad called Susan's Complaint and Remedy, which begin with the lass bemoaning the loss of her false lover- similar to "Constant lady"- the sentiment is given from stanzas 2:

II.
Why does my love Willy prove false and unkind?
Ah I why does he change like the wavering wind,
From one that is 1oyal in ev'ry degree?
Ah! why does he change to another from me?

However, the first part of the 4th stanza seems to be close to our ballad:

IV.
But now he has left me, and Fanny the fair
Employs all his wishes, his thoughts and his care:
He kisses her lip as she sits on his knee,
And says all the sweet things he once said to me:

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

Hi,

If you're a cowboy looking for a traditional cowboy song- well here's one from Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax, 3nd edition, 1916 p. 397-398:

RAMBLING BOY

I am a wild and roving lad,
A wild and rambling lad I'll be;
For I do love a little girl
And she does love me.

"O Willie, O Willie, I love you so,
I love you more than I do know;
And if my tongue could tell you so
I'd give the world to let you know."

When Julia's old father came this to know,—
That Julia and Willie were loving so,—
He ripped and swore among them all,
And swore he'd use a cannon ball.

She wrote Willie a letter with her right hand
And sent it to him in the western land.
"Oh, read these lines, sweet William dear.
For this is the last of me you will hear."

He read those lines while he wept and cried,
"Ten thousand times I wish I had died"
He read those lines while he wept and said,
"Ten thousand times I wish I were dead."

When her old father came home that night
He called for Julia, his heart's delight,
He ran up stairs and her door he broke
And found her hanging by her own bed rope.

And with his knife he cut her down,
And in her bosom this note he found
Saying, " Dig my grave both deep and wide
And bury sweet Willie by my side."

They dug her grave both deep and wide
And buried sweet Willie by her side;
And on her grave set a turtle dove
To show the world they died for love.

This is a version of the "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. The second stanza is one that borrowed from the opening Nelly's Constancy, 1686. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM

The Dubliners' "I Wish" was apparently recorded in 1963 and released on Jan. 1, 1964.

It's worth $1.29 to hear it sung all the way through by the inimitable Ronnie Drew:

https://www.amazon.com/Wish-Till-Apples-Grow-Tree/dp/B01KBK3P0A/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1485974399&sr=1-1&keywords=dubli

Lomax's "Rambling Boy" does not appear in the first (1910) ed. of Cowboy Songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:46 PM

I put 18829 in because it was once part of Roud 60 and there are hybrids with 60.

Fortey can easily be dated 1887 looking at other songs nearby in the songster. Both 'So it was!' and 'Oh, the Jubilee!' came out in 1887.

I have all of the EFDSS journals from 1899 to date. I'll have a look at the Kloss article.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM

Susan's Complaint has similar wording/sentiments in the last couplet but it could easily be co-incidence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:51 PM

You have to balance similar wording against the use of stock phrases by the broadside writers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:58 PM

Hi,

Lighter-- $1.29, is it on youtube? I've read about that version. Lomax added songs in 1916 and Rambling Boy was one- it appears in the subsequent editions. Unfortunately there's no info given.

Steve-- I got a date of 1890 for one of the Songsters so it look like they are after circa 1883 when Radoo was published in a songbook in London by R. Marsh (Bodleian).

Here's an interesting text that I've seen so it must have been published before. Fauset lists it as a variant of Butcher Boy.

From: Folklore from Nova Scotia collected by Arthur Huff Fauset (1899-1983), New York: American Folk-Lore Society: G.E. Stechert and Co., Agents, 1931.


[Must I Go Bound] (Variant 1) - sung by Peter Dyer. Colored. Born in Barcelona, Spain. Aged about 55. Came to the United States at an early age, and settled in Nova Scotia about 20 years ago. Retired grocer, Yarmouth.

Must I go bonds[bound], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

Last night my lover promised me
That he would take me across the deep blue sea.
But now he's gone an' left me alone,
I'm an orphan girl without any home.

Must I go bonds[1], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

There was a place in London town
Where my true love sat himself down.
He takes another girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he won't tell me.

Must I go bonds[1], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

1. bound

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:07 PM

Steve- Susan's Complaint isn't related in any way- it's just curious that a similar stanza chanced to have been written.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:36 PM

Hi,

It's on youtube- two places.

The Dubliners' "I Wish (Till the Apples Grow)" also found as online as "Love is Pleasin'." 1964 Release.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish, I wish, I was a youth again
But a youth again I can never be
Till the apples grow on an ivy tree.

I left me father, I left me mother
I left all me sisters and brothers too
I left all me friends and me own religion
I left them all for to follow you.

But the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten
And the hottest love is the soonest cold
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Oh love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dew.

And love and porter makes a young man older
And love and whiskey makes him old and grey
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM

The Kloss article is brilliant. It shows pretty much similar findings to what I have but goes into much greater detail and some more accurate dates from earlier editions. The main thrust re 'Water is Wide' is interesting and to date it must be the definitive article on this branch of the family.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:15 PM

Hi Steve- I agree great article, sources-- which I read three weeks ago and need to return when the fog clears.

Here's something for you that I had and recently saw again- it's a reduction of Nelly's Constancy from British Library transcribed by our old friend Baring-Gould's MS when he was looking through broadsides:

The Broken Hearted Lover's Garland circa 1740. Song IV "Nelly's Constancy to a new Tune. O.G. I. p. 103.

I lov'd you dearly I loved you well
I loved you dear(ly) no tongue can tell.
You love another, you love not me
You care not for my company.

You love another, I'll tell you why
Because she hath more means than I.
But means will waste love & means will fly
In time thou mayest have no more than I.

If I had gold (Love) thou shouldst have part
But as I've none (Love), thou hast my heart.
Thou hast my heart (Love) & free good will,
And in good troth I love thee still.

How often has your tongue this told,
You loved not for silver nor gold,
And thus to me you did impart,
And your desire was my heart.

Your tongue did so enchant my mind
Still I am & forever must be kind:
Though you prove false, yet I am true,
And so I'll bid false men adieu.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:18 PM

That's it, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM

Hi,

There are several versions that are variants Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

Here's my point: Radoo (Adieu) is known as a separate song and it is independent of Tavern- and I believe older. Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally - as a chorus."

Here's the song from Traditional Ballads of Virginia (under appendices):

[Adieu, Adieu] collected by Mr. John stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the fooiie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

"O, who will shoe those pretty little feet?
O, who will glove those lily-white hands?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips,
While I am in a foreign land?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips
While I am in a foreign land?"

"My father will shoe my pretty little feet;
My brother will glove my lily-white hands;
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips,
When you are in a foreign land.
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips
When you are in a foreign land"

Davis titled it "Lass of Roch Royal" but the stanzas are obvious floaters. Davis said Adieu is known in similar songs and is used as a chorus.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:59 PM

Hi,

Correction: There are several versions that are variants of Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to the Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 76 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

(I wish, I wish, I wish I could type)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:20 PM

Hi Lighter,

Now we need a source- I found another Irish version with the apple/ivy from 1860s but I can't get the source because the book is on google.

Here's another hybrid from 1909 (Blue-Eyed Boy) I'll just give a few stanzas:

Go bring me baek that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
But the loss of one is the gain of two,
And this is why I mourn for you.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

Remember me and bear in mind,
A good true friend is hard to find;
And when you find one good and true
Don't change the old one for the new.

This also has a stanza of Child 76. Notice the text for "Adieu"

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:32 PM

Ok Lighter- (or anyone that can help)

Here's the Irish version, it's in The Irish Book Lover - Volumes 9-13 - Page 130 by John Smyth Crone, ‎Seamus O'Cassidy, ‎Colm O Lochlainn - 1917. link: https://books.google.com/books?id=nI2jWRRmTfUC

I think the variant is from one of the authors but it's unclear. Here's the text:

[[[In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly, for 10th April, Mr. Joesph J. MacSweeney pointed out the close resemblance between a poem by William Allingham "The Girl's Lamentation," an English folk song in Kidson and Neal's Collection, and a Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection published by the Irish Folk Song Society. Being interested both in Allingham and folk songs, I sent the following note:

The theme of both poem and folk song-- the betrayal and desertion of a young girl is, of course, as old as the hills and wide as the world.
When I was a boy in rural Ulster in the sixties of last century I often heard a folk-song which I always considered the foundation upon which Allingham built. The words and the pathetic old Irish air to which it was sung cling to my memory yet. Here are a few stanzas which show a close resemblance to both poem and song:

There is a strange house in this town
Where my true love goes in and sits down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And he tells her the tale that he once told me.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain,
I wish that I was a maid again,
A maid I was, but ne'er shall be
Till the apples grow on yon ivy tree.

I wish, I wish, now I'm all forlorn
I wish my baby it was born,
And sitting on its dada's knee,
And the long, green grass growing over me.

An esteemed Cork correspondent informs me that a memorial cross has recently been erected in St Joseph's Cemetery, Cork, over the grave of Timothy Murphy, who died on 13th April, 1919. . .]]]

I already post part of the Allingham-- I'm not sure of the relation ship with the-- Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection-- which is "summertime is coming" and the translation of one version is not our ballad. Anyone know more about this Gaelic song?

I need to know who posted this song which he learned when he was small in the 1860s,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Finally made it to the 1930s in the US/Canada versions. My grandfather collected and published along with Melinger Henry (Beech Mountain Ballads) a version of "Blue-Eyed Boy" and a version of "Butcher Boy." The Butcher Boy was from Banner Elk where he met Henry who had already published his first book in London. Henry collect a rare version of Cruel Father, my B version from Rena Hicks, Nathan's wife. Nathan was a dulcimer player and maker and I've played and recorded a few tunes on his dulcimer. Rena's song was "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and it has the "cannon ball" reference like Lomax's "Rambling Boy."

I remember my grandparents- both professional musicians- my grandmother was a concert pianist and my grandfather was a baritone singer who directed choirs and choral groups (the one at Banner Elk in 1933 for example where he met Henry)-- they would talk about the times Percy Granger came by the house and they would play piano duets and sing and Percy would tell stories and do odd things. Percy also collected a few versions before he moved to Americ-ka (as Ronnie Drew of Dubliners sang it).

Nathan's son-in-law Frank Proffitt also sang a version "Morning Fair" as did one several of the older relatives Sam Harmon and Jane Hicks Gentry. Jane's version has the "Must I Go Bound" stanza. The version Henry got from Uncle Sam Harmon, Old Counce's grandson is as follows. It was taken from his granddaughter:

A. Butcher's Boy. Obtained from Miss Rachel Tucker, Varnell, Georgia, who had it from her grandparents, Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Harmon, of Cade's Cove, Blount County, Tennessee, October, 1930.

1. In yonder city where I once dwell,
A Butcher's boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away
And then with me he would not stay.

2. There was a house in this same town;
My love would go and he would sit down;
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

3. "Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

4. "Give me a cheer, and I will sit down,
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'"

5. After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

6. He tuk his knife; he cut her down
And on her breast these he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'

7. "Go, dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."   

I'll post Nathan Hick's version of "Blue-Eyed Girl" later,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:41 PM

Crone's dates appear to be 1858-1945, and his name certainly sounds the most Ultonian. He may be the best bet of the three.

O Lochlainn lived into the 1960s and didn't grow up in Ulster, so it wasn't him.

I haven't found anything on O'Cassidy.

Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:16 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I used the "words in quotes" method in Google Books snippet view if you quote the beginning in Google books "In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly" it may give you the sentence before that. I go the whole thing by doing that. Or going into snippet view and entering parts of what I had.
* * * *

In Blue-Eyed Boy Belden D is:

D. No title. Secured by Miss Hamilton in 1909 from Nita Stebbins of the West Plains High School, who described it as 'a country dance' which she learned, from an old woman who used to live in the country.'

As I walked out one morning in May
Gathering flowers all so gay,
I gathered white and I gathered blue
And little did I think what love could do.

Must I go bound, must you go free,
Must I love a pretty girl that won't love me?
Oh, no! no! it never can be,
For love like thee never conquered me.

Now compare that to "The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. 1770:

Down in a Meadow both fair and gay,
Plucking a Flowers the other day,
Plucking a Flower both red and blue,
I little thought what Love could do.

Where Love's planted there it grow,
It buds and blows much like any Rose;
And has so sweet and pleasant smell,
No Flower on Earth can it excell.

Must I be bound and she be free?
Must I love one that loves not me?
Why should I act such a childish Part
To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

So Steve was saying that Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies only has one stanza in common with Waly Waly.

Clearly the Must I Go Bound stanza is related to Blue Eyed Boy/Adieu, Adieu/Butcher Boy.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:24 PM

Hi,

Here another puzzler. Where do this stanza come from? What broadside earlier song?

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

It's in four or five versions of Butcher Boy/Blue Eyed Boy in the US. I've got it back to the early 1800s in the US. It appears similarly in other songs but the second line changes.

Here's an example, Belden's Blue-Eyed Boy version C:

C. 'Adieu.' Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.


As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
'When tried will prove that you will not.

Notice this too has the "Adieu Adieu" Chorus as in several other songs including Radoo and There is a Tavern,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:17 PM

Hi,

My father could only recall one trip to Beech Mountain to visit Nathan Hicks and he was about 7 years old at the time. They drove the car as far in the mountains as they could then pulled off the road and walked, and walked and walked.

When they got there Grandfather Matteson would go up on the porch with the grown ups. They told my father to go play with the children but when my father looked around there were no children there. He went into the yard -- all the children about half dozen were all hiding from him!!! Eventually he found Ray Hicks the eldest who was around 10 and already over six-foot tall. Ray was perhaps the best known tell of Jack tales in the world- passed down from great-grandfather Council Harmon and his children. Ray ended up being six feet six inches tall and was skinny as a rail.

My grandparents would send them money sometimes and the Hicks family were dirt poor but would send them hand0made Christmas presents and decorations every year. My grandfather bought a dulcimer and got one of his friends from NY Frank Warner to go down and buy one. Frank recorded the Hicks around 1940 and even played one of his son-in-laws songs, Tom Dooley that got to be pretty popular when redone by The Kingston Trio. It must have been a sad day when Nathan died, for Rena and Ray and Frank Proffitt too.

THE BLUE-EYED BOY, sung by Nathan Hicks August, 1933.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a boy that don't love me?
Must I then act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart?

Refrain: Go, bring me baek my blue-eyed boy;
Go, bring my darling back to me;
Go, bring me back my blue-eyed boy
And happy ever I will be.

No, I'll not go bound while he goes free;
No, I'll not love a boy that don't love me;
No, I'll not act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart.

ReJrain

Last night my true love told me that
He'd take me across the deep blue sea,
But now he's gone and left me alone-
A poor orphan girl without a home.

ReJrain

Right here in this little town
My true love gocs and he sits down,
He takes other girls upon his knee
And tells them things he won't tell me.

Refrain

My true love is like a little bird
That flies from tree to tree,
And while he's with some other girl,
He very seldom thinks of me.

Refrain

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

Rena, Nathan's Wife was a Hicks too, they were third cousins. And Uncle Sam Harmon's wife Pollyanna, she was a Hicks too. Uncle Sam, who move from Beech Mountain in the 1800s to TN, once said his grandfather Council was the one that came over from England but he didn't know. Old Counce's father Andrew was kilt when a tree fell over on him and Counce and his brother were sent to live with their grandfather Big Sammy Hicks. You might think that Big Sammy and his son Little Sammy might have come over from England- but no-- Big Sammy came over to the NC Mountains about the time of the skirmish with the Redcoat. Sammy's father David was a loyalist and he left James River long before his father Samuel left the James River and Tuckahoe Creek, Virginia. So you see Uncle Sam was way off about Old Counce his Grandfather coming from England.

Rena Hicks did keep a ballit box and she wrote down many of the Hicks family ballads. She was still around when my friend Thomas Burton ventured up to Beech Mountain in the early 70s. Henry collected a dozen songs from her in the early 1930s including "Rambling Rowdy Boy."

My father told me one of my grandfather's secrets. My grandfather always took a flask of whiskey with him in his back pocket on his "ballad bagging" trips. And after socializing a bit he'd invite some of the men-folk to partake. I don't know if it worked but I'm sure he enjoyed it. I never gto a chance to hear my grandfather sing-- there are only a few recordings of him made by the library of Congress in the 1930s. Here's a link with a photo of Nathan Hick's holding my grandfather's dulcimer that Nathan made: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-85-lady-alice.aspx You can hear me playing it if you click the link below the pic. Here's my grandfather's collected version of Butcher Boy:

THE BUTCHER BOY- sung by Mrs. Schell, Banner Elk, NC 1933

In yonder city where I did dwell
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away,
And then with me he would not stay.

There was a house in this same town--
My love would go and he would sit down,
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

"Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

"Give me a cheer, and I will sit down-
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me."'

After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone.
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

He took his knife, he cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
I once loved a boy that didn't love me.

"Go dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:35 AM

Hi,

It was funny getting Nathan Hicks old dulcimer of the shelf at my Mom's house in Maryland. Dusting it off I discovered that the strings must had been original, they were black, rusted and very loose-- I tuned it up but it was still tuned down 1 1/2 steps -- I was afraid I'd break the old rusted strings. So my niece Kara got a book with a few of my grandfather's melodies of Nathan's songs and I grabbed my nephew Zach and we went over to Bob's and did 5 folk songs without practicing- one after the other- one take. I was using a clothespin to push the dulcimer strings and a pick- and we jammed!!

Here's the link to us actually playing George Colon (sic): http://bluegrassmessengers.com/Data/Sites/1/avatars/02%20George%20Collon.mp3

Nathan's dulcimer is still at my mom's house. Bob and Sue moved to the Potomac, Zack's playing violin in New Mexico somewhere. Kara moved to the country. Maybe we can still make music again someday!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 03:24 PM

Wow! That's history, Richie! Is there a family tree on your website?
More please!

Regarding the relationships between these songs, they nearly all consist of hybrids interspersed with commonplaces. I see little point in trying to trace the commonplaces. They'd already been jumping around since the 18th century. You'll drive yourself nuts if you try.

The British evolution is complicated enough but add in the further American diversification and you've got a zillion-piece jigsaw!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:14 AM

Hi Steve,

Interesting about US Blue-Eyed Boy- it has Must I Go Bound and Adieu (Radoo). It was recorded by Carter Family in 1929 and also Woody Guthrie in 1940- two fairly famous acts. I only know of the Carter Family from Chet (Atkins) I have a few funny stories about Chet (later) but we sat backstage in 1992 and talked about AP Carter and since Chet played with Maybelle, one of the original Carters, he knew many of there songs and toured with them for several years. Chet knows alot of AP's songs. AP was one of the great song collectors in the 20s and 30s- he collected the songs and the Carter Family recorded them! I know of Woody from Lily Mae Ledford's granddaughter and researching Lily Mae- she sang a "blue-eyed girl" song but it's a different song- which I still know many years later.

I've already started a way to sort them out. Here's Blue Eyed Boy: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx I put the Scottish version collected by Grieg that you sent. know any more?

Here's what I'm doing:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy;
7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Oxfordshire Tragedy; Love Has Brought Me to Despair;
7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" )
7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down)
7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor)
7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy)
7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts)

For each ballad or song that is somewhat related I'm doing a separate study. Except for 7A and 7C it won't take long. I've already started all of them and finished one 7D.

I'll tell you a story about Percy Grainger, pianist, composer, collector. I'm not sure of the exact details but it comes from my grandfather and grandmother to my father. Percy liked quirky feats of daring. So he stood in the front yard of my grandparents house and said he could throw a ball over the house and catch it in the back yard. My grandparent's house was rather wide and there were trees next to it and bushes. 'Impossible' said my grandfather, so they made a bet (not sure what the wager was or if there was one). Percy opened up the front door walked down the hall and opened up the back door. He went back outside to the front- threw the ball over the house- ran through the house and caught the ball on the other side!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:06 AM

Hi,

Since we are talking about Blue-Eyed Boy and Nathan Hicks who built the dulcimer for my grandfather and was his informant. I'll tell you the story of Tom Dooley. The Kingston Trio's 1958 cover of "Tom Dooley" an NC folk song about the murder of Laura Foster, sold millions of copies, and eventually Frank Warner pointed out he got the song from Nathan Hick's son-in-law Frank Proffitt. Nathan actually had little to do with the song- Proffitt got it from his great-aunt Nancy Prather [all reports say Nancy is his "aunt", no]. Tom Dooley supposedly started the "folk craze" of the early 60s was credited to it.

In my grandmother's diary dated about 1937 (this is all from memory) they went over to Frank Warner's apartment in NY and my grandfather who has just published Beech Mountain Ballads and was president of the Southern Folklore Association received the invite from Frank and Anne Warner. My grandfather convinced Frank Warner to go down and get a dulcimer and meet Nathan Hicks. So Frank wrote Hicks and went down around 1939 and came back and did recordings in 1940, one of the recordings was Frank Proffit's Tom Dooley, which Warner had learned and was performing (guitar/vocal). Warner recorded Tom Dooley and Alan Lomax liked it so much he included it in his book Folk Song: USA. The Kingston Trio members were looking for new songs in Lomax's book and they selected Tom Dooley- and the rest is history. And...Nathan Hick's dulcimer, somehow, in some remote way had something to do with it!

So I was looking through my grandfather's MS and in his scribble on a MS sheet was Tom Dooley, but there was no attribution but it clearly was in the 1930s. This was quite a few years ago and I thought- wow this might be valuable-- did he get it from Proffitt before Frank Warner in 1940. There was only the chorus and some scribble which might have been a verse.

Fank Proffitt got it from his great Aunt, and I found out that Frank Warner had managed to get Frank Proffitt some of the royalties-- this was after the Kingston Trio had royalties for 5 million records!!!

I got my grandfather scribbled MS of Tom Dooley and wanted to find out if it was worth anything- it really didn't matter much Frank Proffitt was dead. So after digging into the song a little deeper. I found out-- the copyright probably wasn't valid anyway- Burnett and Rutherford recorded it in the late 20s!!! And no seemed to know it!!!

It's like the copyright Clayton Pappy McMichen of the Skillet Lickers had on the famous folksong "in the Pines". His daughter Juanita showed me his copyright and her royalty statement- she was make a thousand dollars a year of his copyright of "In the Pines" in the late 1920s. He didn't write it, he was prob the 5th to record it and he didn't even name it "In the Pines" -- yet she got his royalties for people using and recording "In the Pines."

Richie

Subject: Re: Tom Dooley's origins
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 02:16 AM

And noone seemed to know it!!!

Does it count when it's in a published book? ;-)

Paul Slade in bis 2015 book "Unprepared to Die: America's Greatest Murder Ballads and the True Crime Stories That Inspired Them" gives Grayson & Whitter's September 1929 recording as the first version of "Tom Dooley" on disc.   Gilliam Grayson was the nephew of James Grayson who helped arresting Tom Dula.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:53 AM

Hey,

This was back in the late 1980s when I found my grandfather MS. At that time, believe it or not, The Kingston Trio did not know of the 1929 recording, Alan Lomax did not know it, Frank Warner did not know it and at that time I thought perhaps mistakenly that it was new information.
The other thing is, as far as copyright law, Frank Proffitt has the right to his arrangement of the song including his text. If Kingston Trio knew about the Grayson and Whittier [his name is actually Whitter] recording- sorry I said Burnett and Rutherford- said it was from memory ;) then they could have claimed their version was based on a previously record folk song. Probably Kingston Trio redid or changed the melody- I know they out a pause in the chorus: Hand down your head---Tom Dooley and used Proffitt's text.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

Hi,

As far as "Blue-eyed Boy" it looks like the UK versions are "My Love He Is a Sailor Boy/Lad" Besides the version collected by Grieg and other under the title "Bring me back the one I love." A similar song with a new stanza and title is 'willow tree'. Here's one version:

THE WILLOW TREE
Sung by May Bradley, Shropshire

As I passed by a willow tree, willow tree,
That willow leaf blew down on me.
I picked it up, it would not break.
I passed my love, he would not speak.

Oh, speak, young man, and don't be shy, be shy,
I'm not a girl can pass you by,
For friends we met and friends we'll part,
Just take my hand but not my heart.

I wish your bosom was of glass, of glass,
That I could view it through and through,
Just view those secrets of your heart,
If I love one I can't love two.

Then give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh, give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

My love he is a sailor boy, sailor boy,
He sails the ocean through and through,
And when he gets so far away,
He hardly thinks no more of me.

Now give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

i consider this to be a variant of the same song. However, I'm just working on this now. Other UK versions? How old is "Willow Tree"? Other versions of "Bring me back the one I love"? Any info would be helpful.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:07 PM

Hi,

I put two old versions the Kidson broadside (Sailor Boy)and the music to the gypsy "Willow Tree' on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx

Steve if you could date the Kidson broadside Sailor Boy it would be helpful. I'll email original.

Here's the version from Kendal, Westmorland:

Christmas Eve and After by Thomas William Thompson July 1909

But 'this loitering profiteth nothing,' so let me hasten to add
that Shandres was at home, and was mending his fiddle. When
this had been successfully accomplished he very kindly consented
to play for us, and, once begun, he played on and on, passed from
one tune to another, dance-music and Christmas-carols, songs and
hymns all coming alike to him. As he remembered some almost
forgotten melody a beaming smile lit up his still handsome face,
and never Avas he more pleased than when he played and sang
a beautiful and pathetic old folk-song:

[Willow Tree- sung by Shandres of Kendal, Westmorland]

As I passed by a willow tree,
A leaf fell down and followed me ;
I picked it up, it would not break ;
My love passed by, he would not speak.

'Speak, young man, and don't be shy,
You are the only one for me:
If you can't love one, you can't love two;
Never change the old one for the new.

'I wish my heart was made of glass,
That you might view it through and through,
Might view the secret of my heart —
How dearly, dearly I love you.'

Then give me back that one I love,
O! give, O! give him back to me;
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be. [1]


1 There are a large number of variants of this song, which was a favourite with the old Gypsies. It is still remembered by the Gypsies of the Eastern Counties as well as by those of the North Country. The tune was recorded by the Misses M. and N. Dixon of Kendal. The third and fourth verses are sung to the same tune as verse two.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:05 PM

Richie,
Just as a matter of interest, is this historical info you are now posting available on your website? If it isn't it certainly should be.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM

Richie, you are racing ahead and because I'm trying to complete other projects I'm struggling to keep up with you. However, I'll do what I can when I can.

My Blue-eyed Boy versions in brief. Ask if you can't decipher any of them.

Belden 478 (4)
Huntington-Henry SotP 391 & 392
Greig Duncan 6 p19
Sandberg 324
Green Groves, hamer p46
Pound 212
I actually catalogued the Kidson sheet for them!!!!! Memory going!
Beech Mountain, Henry 50
Fowke, LaRena Clark p96.
Brewster 339
Owens 93
McNeil 18
The Gam, Huntington 224

You probably have all of these.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:26 PM

Hi Steve,

Need Green Groves, Hamer p46 and date on Kidson broadside. I've got a lot of work to do- so I won't be getting far ahead. still haven't looked much at Deep in Love and Must I go Bound.

I'm still working on US versions which are many,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:40 AM

Kidson broadside c1890-1900

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:42 AM

Hamer is May Bradley The Willow Tree which you've just posted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve I need the Crawfurd-- I think its "Slighted Love" sung by Elizabeth Macqueen, originally from Ireland; Lyle-Crawfurd 43.

Becasue of Constant Lady's influence on (borrowed stanzas) the Died for Love and Love has Brought Me to Despair I wrote out the headnotes to Love has Left Me in Despair. If you look at the notes to Traditional Ballad Index you'll see it left them in despair too!

To read all the notes (several pages): http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx Here is the last portion (rough draft- watch out for danging participles!!!):

The Traditional Ballad Index has listed a number of versions of the Died for Love family that have a stanza or two similar to, or based on, the broadside "Constant Lady." This is wrong. The criteria for inclusion for any ballad to be listed as a "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" ballad must be the Constant Lady's 4th stanza with the last line: "Yet Love has brought me to despair." If these words from the 4th stanza are missing them the ballad can only be based on the broadside "Constant Lady and the false-hearted Squire."

Belden in this Songs and Ballads" notes, 1940, addresses the issue, although it should be noted that "The Deceased Maiden Love" does not adequately compare to "Constant Lady" and that the ending of Pitts' "Sheffield Park" is a borrowing from Consant Lady." Here are Belden's notes[]:

One other feature, frequent in English ballads having a similar story but not found in any text[1] of The Butcher Boy, should be mentioned. In two seventeenth century broadsides, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I 260-2 and VIII 635-6), in Sheffield, Park (Pitts; also in oral tradition in Hampshire, see above), in Lancashire and Hertfordshire texts of A Brisk Young Sailor (JFSS V 183-9), in the Dorset There was Three Worms on Yonder Hill, in an Essex text of Died for Love (JFSS II 158-9)--all having a story something like that of The Butcher Boy--the girl does not hang herself but, like Ophelia, goes in search of flowers to cure the wounds of love makes a bed of them, and dies thereon (or, sometimes, dies and is covered with flowers and grass by her loving mistress). This element appears also in an otherwise unrelated song from North Carolina, Dearest Billie (MSNC 7).

Belden's first footnote present evidence of the "heart's-ease" flower found in Constant Lady stanza 13:

1. Rather, in any printed text. In two texts privately communicated to me by Barry in 1917, one from, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and one from Deerfieid, Massachusetts, the girl runs thru the meadows gathering flowers, for

There is a flower that I've heard say
'Tis called hearts-ease both night and day,
And if that flower I could find,
'Twould ease my heart and please my mind.

The former of these has also the 'apron high' motif.

While this evidence shows the influence of "Constant Lady" and its inclusion in a "Died for Love" song, Belden does not say they are all versions of "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" which is exactly my point: Love Has Brought Me to Despair is Constant Lady with the fours stanza present.

Cox, in his lengthy notes to "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" in Folk Songs from the South (1925), fails to identify "Constant Lady" as the ballad's source.

My conclusion is:

1) Constant Lady is a different ballad than Died for Love.
2) Some Died for Love ballads have borrowed stanzas from Constant Lady which has also provided one common ending: She laid her down, and nothing spoke:/ Alas! for love her heart was broke.
3) Versions similar to, or based on, the "Constant Lady" broadside that are missing stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Constant Lady[].
4) Versions with stanzas from "Constant Lady" that include stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Love Has Brought Me to Despair."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:21 PM

Hi,

Here's what the ballad index has:

Love Has Brought Me to Despair [Laws P25]

DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a girl telling of the grief her false love has left her. She seeks a flower in the meadow to ease her mind; none meet her needs. She makes a bed of flowers, asks for a marble stone on her grave and a turtle dove at her breast, and dies
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1827 (Lyle-Crawfurd1)
KEYWORDS: death separation flowers grief
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,Ro) Britain(England(Lond,North,South),(Scotland(Aber,Bord)))
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws P25, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair"
GreigDuncan6 1170, "In Halifax Town" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lyle-Crawfurd1 43, "Slighted Love" (1 text)
Reeves-Circle 34, "Died of Love" (2 texts)
BroadwoodCarols, pp. 92-95, "Died of Love or A brisk young lad he courted me" (1 short text, 1 tune)
OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse" (1 text, 1 tune)
RoudBishop #42, "A Brisk Young Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
Brewster 58, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Combs/Wilgus 116, p. 176, "The Auxville Love" (1 text)
JHCox 144, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text)
Hubbard, #28, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT 824, LOVDISPR*
Roud #60
RECORDINGS:
Dillard Chandler, "I Wish My Baby Was Born" (on Chandler01, DarkHoll)
Geoff Ling, "Died for Love" (on Voice10)
Dellie Norton, "When I Wore My Apron Low" (on DarkHoll)
Berzilla Wallin, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (on OldLove, DarkHoll)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24]
cf. "Tavern in the Town"
NOTES: This song has close ties with "Tavern in the Town," often sharing stanzas and, of course, a similarity of plot. Roud, in fact, lumps them (which seems a bit excessive to me). This may help explain why Laws failed to note either the Combs or the Cox version. - RBW
* * * *

1) They list it as a version of Roud 60-- the Constant Lady broadside is a different ballad -- with a similar theme- but it's clearly different. Ballads based on Constant Lady need a different Roud number.

2) The notes are completely wrong "Tavern in the Town" is usually considered to be "There is a Taven" a composed version of Brisk Young lover" with a chorus borrowed from "Adieu, Adieu (Radoo)." Maybe they meant "Alehouse"?

3) Only Berzilla Wallin's recording is a version of Love Had Brought."

4) Of the 12 citations (I don't have OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse"-- can anyone post?) most are versions of Died for Love with one stanza borrowed from Constant Lady. There are dozens of these. Most of the actual versions of "Love has Brought" are not even mentioned.

5) And most importantly-- Even though Belden wrote about it in 1940 (see my last post) they don't even mention "Constant Lady" as the source broadside.

In my opinion- this is a problem,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:25 PM

Hi,

I discovered that a version "Oxford Tragedy" was printed in the Polka Song Book, No. 15, London, 1848 p. 517. Steve Roud apparently has a copy. Anyone else have a link or text?

Here's one US version from Hubbard, Ballads and Songs from Utah, 1961. This was taken from his mother who contributed 134 songs and ballads and twenty-nine fragments.

Love Has Brought Me To Despair-- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Sept. 2, 1942. She leaned it when she was a child about 1874 from her aunt, Mrs. Sarah Call, of Willard.

In Halifax town in Hampshire, Yorkshire,
As I walked out to take the air,
A-viewing the fields and valleys all round,
At length I heard a mournful sound.

My father is a noble lord,
Likewise my mother some lady fair,
And I am the only daughter and heir;
True love has brought me to despair.

I wish I was where I might be,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
How happy, happy I would be![1]

There is a flower, that I've heard say,
It'll cure sad hearts by night and day.
O, that that flower I could but find,
'Twould ease my heart and cure my mind.

Away into the garden she went,
A-gathering flowers was her intent,
A-gathering flowers just as they fell
Until she gathered her apron full.

She chose the green grass for her bed,
A pillow of roses beneath her head.
She laid herself down bur never again spoke;
Poor girl, poor girl, her heart was broke.

1. This stanza is a corruption of the chorus of "My Blue-Eyed Boy."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM

Hi,

The other song/ballad that I believe is ultimately based on the Constant Lady broadside is the more popular "She's Like the Swallow" found in Canada. It also borrows from Died for Love and other related ballads/broadsides.

I'm preparing some notes on the relationship. Comments are welcome,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:30 PM

Hi,

Here's the first text collected:

She's like a swallow- sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930.

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [sim, Fair and Tender YL]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [sim. Sharp "I Love my Love"]

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go, [Stanza 12]
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her whole a-per-on full.

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed, [stanza 15 CL]
A stony pillow for her head.
Now this fair maid she lay down, no word did she say
Until this fair maid's heart was broke.

4 There are a man on yonder hill, [broadside Brisk Young Sailor]
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one.
[How foolish must that girl be             [stanza 17 CL]
For to think I love no other but she.

5 For the world was not meant for one alone, [stanza 17 CL cont'd]
The world was meant for every one.]

* * * *

This is made up of 1 stanza original, 3 stanzas of "Constant Lady" and 1 stanza of Brisk Young Sailor:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

15. The green ground served as a bed,
And flowers, a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
Alas! for love her heart was broke.

There is a man on yonder hill,
He has a heart as hard as steel,
He has two hearts instead of one,
He'll be a rogue when I am gone.

17. "Did she think I so fond could be,
That I could fancy none but she?
Man was not made for one alone;
I took delight to hear her moan."

Clearly it's similar to, or based on, "Constant Lady" and related to Died for Love. There five traditional texts of She's Like A Swallow-- all are longer. The first stanza is unique but parts of it are found in tradition- line 1. Come All You Fair and Tender Ladies and line 4. I Love my Love - Sharp EFSSA.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

Hi,

Here are the second part of my opening notes on 7H. She's like a Swallow, which is a brief analysis of the important Karpeles version collected in NL in 1930:

The first stanza has been used as a chorus. It has a unusual jump from 3rd person narrative to first person narrative in the last line:

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [3rd person narrative]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [1st person narrative]

After the shift to 1st person in the last line, the 2nd stanza begins in 3rd person: "'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go." This obvious corruption is mitigated by a shift to 3rd person for the last line:

1. She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry.
She's like the sunshine all on the lee shore,
She loves her love but she'll love no more.

Karpeles changed the text she collected when it was first published in 1934. She eliminated the 4th stanza derived from Brisk Young Sailor (also collected by Sharp in Cambridgeshire) which was corrupt being only three lines:

4 There are a man on yonder hill,
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one,
. . . . .

and the 5th stanza with a corrupt last line which she probably didn't recognize as stanza 17 of "Constant Lady." Here's how Karpeles 5th stanza should appear:

5 How foolish must that girl be   
For to think I love no other but she.
For the world was not meant for one alone,
The world was meant for every one.

She then repeated the first stanza. Here's the result[], after eliminating the 4th and 5th stanza, which she published in 1934 (reprinted in 1971):

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her a-per-on full

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed,
A stony pillow for her head,
She laid her down, no word did say
Until this fair maid's heart did break.

4 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:44 AM

Hi,

After checking it appears Karpeles 4th stanza of "She's like a swallow" sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930 is also part of "Love has Brought Me."

It's the 5th stanza of False Lovyer (Brought Me to Despair) as sung by James Punt of East Horndon, Essex on 23 April, 1904. Tune noted by R. Vaughan Williams.

I. Her father bin a noble knight,
Her mother bin, a lady bright:
I bin, an only child of her
False lovyer brought me to despair.

II. There is a flower some people say,
Will give ease by night and day;
But if I could that flower find
'Twould ease my heart and cheer my mind."

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sar[1] she plucked,
she pulled until she gained her apron full.

IV. Then unto her father's house she run,
Told them over one by one,
But (of) all the flowers she could not find
Would ease her heart and cheer her mind.

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

1. The beginning of this line is confused and the MS is hard to read- possible "sar" could be "flower". Also could be "sat."

* * * *

This shows that Karpeles stanza 4 has become part of the tradition of "Constant Lady" giving a stronger case for the "She's Like a Swallow" ballad being derived mainly from it.

It's curious to note that in the JFSS 1906 (see: google Books online) this stanza is attributed to Mr. Broomfield, also of Essex, who sang a version. When if you look at the MS it was James punt only that sang this stanza:

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

As a bonus I just figured out the text to Punt's stanza III, and propery organized the lines-- here it is corrected:

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sort she plucked, she pulled,
Until she gained her apron full.

Another mystery brought about by Vaughan Williams handwriting solved :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:39 PM

You're going to need a very powerful computer program to sort out this tangled mess.

I use a simple stanza marking system A, B, C etc. and it still looks chaotic using this when I've got it all down on paper.

The situation c1800 is complex enough, but then start adding all the British variants in c1900, and then the American .....Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

Good luck if you can find any further subvariants in 60.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:00 PM

Hi Steve,

I appreciate all you've done for me and the broadsides and versions you've shared so generously with me and in this thread which hopefully will be used by others.

With "Died for love" there's also a lot of sharing :) Since you know Steve Roud and he is a very bright guy as well- perhaps a definition of what a Roud number is might help. There's no written definition of what Roud 60 is and what ballads or songs it includes and why it includes them. Even the additional Roud numbers which have helped, do not seem to be understood. [At least the Traditional Ballad Index has been way off- calling Roud 18830 Beam of Oak and then listing versions of Cruel Father/Renwick's "Oh Willie." Apparently they didn't understand that it was Rambling Boy-- or is it? Without someone saying what it is - who knows] This is the problem with shared texts and I don't think shared stanzas is the only criteria to be considered when grouping ballads.

The general lack of understanding of the basic underlying broadsides seems to have been the downfall of many but thanks to you maybe some light will be shed.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

I'm sure some light will be shed with your diligence and help, but Steve is just as confused as the rest of us.

As per request my uncle's version of 18828.

Recorded 19th May 1967 from Harold Sykes of Hull aged 40. He could not remember where he picked it up but it must have been either in the Royal Navy just after the war or the Royal Airforce some time after. He was a great favourite in the Sods' operas.

A man returning home one night
Once found his house without a light.
He went upstairs to go to bed
When a sudden thought came to his head.

He went into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam.
He took his knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.

Oh, Lord, I wish my babe was born,
And all my troubles they were gone,
So dig my grave and dig it deep
And place white lilies at my feet.

My love was for a sailor boy,
Who sailed upon the ocean blue,
So if you find one good and true
Don't change an old love for a new.

They dug her grave and dug it deep,
And placed white lilies at her feet,
And at her head a turtle dove,
To prove that she had died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:06 PM

TY Steve,

Another to add to the long number of texts (over 200) which I just finished sorting out!!! I'm understanding his 4th stanza source after looking at "Blue Eyed Boy" also known as "Sailor Boy"- see Kidson's title.

I've finished some of the related versions that are different ballads:

Love Has Left me to Despair: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx

She's Like the Swallow: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7h-shes-like-the-swallow.aspx

Every Night When The Sun Goes In:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx

Here are the attached ballads so far:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William

7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair

7C. Sheffield Park (The Unfortunate Maid)

7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In

7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir

7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy

7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day

7H. She's Like the Swallow

There will be several more.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:07 PM

There's fine rendition of 'Love has brought me to despair' by Suzanne Thomas when she was a member of Hot Mud Family. The lyrics are basically the same as the Berzilla Wallin version posted in previous thread.

You can listen to it here - it begins at 2:30:

Hot Mud Family

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:17 PM

I should mention that she was Edmundson at that time and reverted to maiden name Thomas later. Listening to the track again after several decades, it is clear that it is not the solo effort that I had in my memory.

Thanks for the threads, Richie and Steve. Fascinating stuff!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 04:12 AM

Thanks, Stewie!

Richie, regarding Steve's work. You of all people must realise that there is a mountain of work out there. Steve started out like me with thousands of 5x3 record cards but quickly realised the possibilities of computer data banks. He transferred to computer early on but I preferred my old record cards which I still have. (Swings and roundabouts IMO) The main advantage obviously with Steve is others can use his Indexes. With that amount of data speed is essential and sometimes there isn't time to sort out a complicated family of songs so they get lumped under one number. Sorting out these lumps I'm afraid is down to people like us. Steve doesn't blindly accept our suggestions. Most of the many corrections I've sent him he has accepted. Just one or two he baulks at, e.g., The Flash Lad/Wild and Wicked Youth he is finding hard to separate and I've had to leave Flash lad without a number in my latest book. The 2 songs have plot and a couple of stanzas in common, but different origins. There is therefore no definition of a Roud number. He generally includes everything in English that has ever appeared in Folksong anthologies. I have separate indexes for Folk song collected in England and those collected in other English-speaking countries. This enables a relatively small manageable core study without excluding everything else. And of course I also have a broadside index and a few specialised indexes such as shanties/carols/forces songs/children's songs, foreign language ballads, Music Hall......

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 02:20 PM

Hi Stewie, how are things down under? I was under the impression that the Suzanne Thomas version was derived from Berzilla's. It's a great version.

Steve, I do realize the enormity of Steve Roud's number system- and it's the best thing out there. I still check with Keefer's folk index and Traditional ballad index (which offers an analysis and recaps the story line. The problem for Roud is reading a title doesn't work and sometimes knowing the first line doesn't help. And in the case of Died for Love knowing the text doesn't always help!!!! To know where a song/ballad should be-- you have to know the text and underlying ballads. In the case of the WPA songs, they are housed at the University of Virginia with no access but they have been catalogued. Eventually much of the collected songs with be digitized but it will done be in the next generations. The hundred thousand songs housed in US collections will no longer be mysteries.

Even now there are important songs like-- "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" as sung Robert Cinnamond of County Antrim, Ireland, recorded by Robert Kennedy, 1955-- that I don't have access to and don't know where to find. [Anyone know?]

Some books and theses in the 20s and 30s- you can't get copies of - even through libraries (in Florida the expense prohibits them from borrowing from other states). When I get one of these- I put the book on my site so other people can use it. The only way to get these books into the public's hands is to track them down and travel to the library or collection where they are-- a costly and time consuming endeavor.

Even a fairly recent version "Beam of Oak" collected by Leach in Labrador in the 1960s is not accessible- I had to buy the book- which should be here soon.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

This is a version from Songs Sung in the Southern Appalachians, by Mellinger Henry, London c.1934. Taken from Rena Hicks, the wife of dulcimer maker Nathan Hicks and the niece of Buna Hicks, who also had the same family version, "Rude and Rambling Boy," probably from Rena's source.

It's loosely based on "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza.

The second half of stanza one a corruption of "Nelly's Constancy" a broadside of 1686, which begins in later versions: "I love you Willie." One indication of the age of this version is that she was hung by her own "bed rope" a term that precedes the mid-1800s.


I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy- sung by Rena Hick of Beech Mountain, NC collected in December 1933 by Melinger Henry.

I am a rambling rowdy boy,
A rambling still I be;
I give this world,
If that she knowed I loved her so.

Her old father caused this to know,
That he loved his daughter so,
He carried her away.

He[1] swore against them all
That he would use his cannonball,
He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.

Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
And he found her hung there by her own bed rope—
Out with his knife, he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found:

Go dig my grave, both deep and wide;
Bury Sweet William by my side,
While friends and relative a-weeping around.

While there she lay beneath the ground,
There came a turtle dove,
To show the world
That she died for love.

1. Originally "She" throughout which makes no sense but it's "He" in Buna's version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 AM

Hi,

Both "Love has Brought Me to Despair" and "She's like the Swallow" are based on stanzas taken from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire," dated c.1686.

"The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" is based on two broadsides printed on a single sheet: printed on a single sheet by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke" c. 1628: "The Deceased Maiden Lover" and "The Faithlesse Lover." They can be viewed here:
https://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/30059/image

Then there's lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forlorn Lover's Complaint" (As I walked forth one summer's day) which is four stanzas found in "The Deceased Maiden Lover." Johnson died in 1633 so it would seem that the nine stanza "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an expansion based on Johnson's work.

Does anyone know if Johnson's tune is Bonny Nell? Or the date of Johnson's composition?

The Oxford Magazine, Volume 25 gives a date of 1610 and I've given it a date of c. 1611 based on earlier research which I can't find.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM

Hi,

The source of the Rena Hicks' version "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and the Buna Hicks' version "Rude and Rambling Boy" is Rebecca Harmon.

Buna got it directly from her mother-in-law, Rebecca. Roby Monroe, (Buna's husband) and Ben Hicks (Rena's father-in-law) were brothers and sons of Rebecca.

This is important because Rebecca (1842-1919) was Council Harmon's daughter and "Old Counce" was progenitor of the ballads and Jack tales for the family in the early 1800s.

Counce got his ballads from grandfather Big Sammy 1753-1835 who he lived with after his father Andrew Harmon was killed by a tree when Counce was very young. Big Sammy and his father David brought the ballads from Virginia before the Revolutionary War. David was a loyalist and apparently came to the mountains to avoid the rising conflicts with England.

So there's a good chance this ballad is from the 1700s. Here's Buna's version which seems to be more accurate:

Rude and Rambling Boy- sung by Buna Hicks of Beech Mountain, NC collected in 1941, collected by Frank and Anne Warner.
Learned from her mother-in-law Rebecca Harmon Hicks.

I am a rude and a rambling boy,
And a rude and a rambling boy I'll be;
I give this world, I am but sure
If I had she knew she loved me so.

Her old father came this to know,
That his daughter loved me so,
He cursed, he swore among them all
He swore he'd use the cannonball.

He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.
Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
He found her hung by her own bed rope.

Out with his knife, and he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found;
Said: Dig my grave, both deep and wide;
And bury sweet William by my side.

All on my breast lay a turtle dove,
To show the world I she died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:29 PM

Hi,

I've roughed in the headnotes for Irish ballad 7J. I Know My Love (by His Way of Walking) here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7j-i-know-my-love.aspx

It's curious that a fairly well known ballad would stem from one well know traditional version from Donat Nono about 1904. Helen Laird's first version published in April 1904 had two stanzas and a chorus.

Does anyone know of traditional versions other than these?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

With some trepidation I'm proceeding on with some related versions. This variant is "Love is Pleasing" or, "Love is Teasing" which appears to be old - this first stanza from Lucy Stewart dates back-- by my estimation-- to the late 1700s at least. I can't hear the end of that stanza- so I'll put a link. The association with Waly, Waly is clear and her third stanza has been traced to the early to mid- 1500s.

Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/gd/play/46994;jsessionid=5F02D24184955117B06896608D08E06D

Love is Teasin'

Oh whit needs I go busk an' braw
Oh whit needs I tae cam my hair
When my false lover has me forsaken
And he says he'll never love me [any mair,]
And he says he'll never love me [any mair.]

I leaned my back into an oak [aik]
I thought it was a truty tree
At first it stood till its branches grew
And shaded my false love tae me
And shaded my false love tae me

Love it is teasin', love it is freezin' [sic]
A little while, [when] it is new,
But as it grows older, it grows the colder
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.

Oh when my aperon was tae me shin,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in, [stops]

Oh when my aperon it come down,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in,
And he passes the door and he never looks in.

I wish my baby it was born,
And sit upon the nurse's knee,
And me in the grave now was laid
And the green, green grass waving over me
And the green, green grass waving over me.

I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I ne'er can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

The first verse as given by Burns who must have heard it in the late 1700s:

O wherefore should I busk my head?        
Or wherefore should I kame my hair?        
For my true Love has me forsook,        
And says he'll never lo'e me mair.        

Why "busk an braw"? What's a definition? Will someone ck and correct my quick transcription?

I'm not sure how to separate this from Waly, but assume Love is Teasin' is considered a separate yet related song. In "Stewart Style, 1513-1542: Essays on the Court of James V" comes this stanza:

Hey trollie lollie, love is jolly
A whyll whyll it is new;
When it is old it growis full cold:
Woe worth the love untrew.

which continues:

Underneath the grein wood trie
Ther thy good love bidis thee,

whyll= while

Not sure how all this fits together yet. Anyone have some ideas? Certainly Waly was attached to Jamie Douglas and two stanzas are in common- what about the Burns then?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:20 PM

Hi,

I wrote part of my Love is Teasing headnotes just now. I'm sharing the rough draft here since it's short:

Although "Love Is Teasing" also titled "Love Is Pleasing[1]" has its own Roud number, 1049, the song will be inexorably linked to "Waly, Waly" because the "Love is Teasing" identifying stanza appears, although amended, as a central stanza in Waly, Waly. Other stanzas from "Waly Waly, are also held in common, linking the songs to an ancestry much different than the Died for Love Songs.

The role of "Died for Love" is usually secondary and stanzas found in "Love Is Teasing" are usually floaters or filler stanzas of which all three songs and their relative songs occasionally share. Conversely stanzas from Waly, Waly are rarely found in Died For Love since Died for Love is influenced by different early broadsides: Nelly's Constancy and the similar The Jealous Lover (or, The Damosel's Complaint) with borrowing from the parallel broadside, "Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire." "Died for Love" is also related to or part of the "Alehouse" stanzas, the suicide (Rambling Boy/Cruel Father) stanzas, The Foolish Girl stanzas, the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas and the Died for Love ending (Dig my grave both wide. . .). Of these diverse elements, only the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas seem to have kept a tie with Love is Teasing and the relationship is distant in most cases.

Perhaps this relationship with "I Wish" is caused by the stanza found in Arthur's Seat, a broadside with stanza in common with Waly, Waly:

Oh, oh! if my young Babe were born,
and set upon the Nurses Knee,
And I my self were dead and gone,
for a Maid again I'le never be.

Arthur's seat also has the "Should I be bound that may go free?/should I Love them that Loves not me?" found in other songs in the extended "Died for Love" family. The close relationship between "The Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies" broadsides and "Must I Go Bound," "Deep in Love" as well as sharing with "Waly, Waly" creates a complex relationship that can only be understood specific song texts.

In "Love is Teasin' " by Lucy Stewart of Aberdeenshire, from the family of Fetterangus Stewarts, the Love is Teasing stanzas at the beginning seem to simply replace the "Died for Love" stanzas about the alehouse, infidelity and money, as if they were interchangeable-- the last three stanzas are kept. It's easy to conceptualize how this could occur since both songs are about the lost of love and abandonment.

Comments?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM

Hi,

This an Irish variant of I believe, "Love is teasing" from the recitation of Mary O'Donnell, Toberdoney, Dervock, Co. Antrim before 1897

1. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, [2] but love is bonnie,
A wee while just when it is new ; [3]
But when it's old, love, it then grows cold, love
And fades away like the morning dew.      

2. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but you are nice, love,
You are the first love that ere I had ; [4]
You are the first love that ere I had,      
So come kiss me, Johnnie, before ye gang.      

3. One kiss of my lips you ne'er shall get, love,      
Nor in my arms [5] you ne'er shall lie,      
Until you grant me that one request, love,
That oftentime you did me deny.      

4. All for to grant you that one request, love,      
I might as well on you my heart bestow;
For as good a lover as you may come,
And who can hinder your [6] love to go.      

5. It's love doth come, yes,[7] and love doth go,
Like the wee sma'[8] birds intill their nests;
If it's [9] to tell you all that I know,
The lad's naw here that I love best.      

6. If he was here that's to be my dear
I'd cast those angry frowns away;
If he was here that's to be my dear,      
I'd scarce have power to say him nay,      

7. It's ower the moss, love, ye needna cross, love,
Nor through the mire ye needna ride;      
For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, love,
And you may to choose your ain self a bride. [10]      

8. It's had I known, the first time I kissed you,      
Young woman's heart's love were so hard to win.
I would have locked it all in a chest, love,
And screwed it tight with a silver pin.      

2. Motherwell suggested that "Johnie, Johnie" in his version was a corruption for "nonnie; nonnie," as there is no character named ''Johnie'' in the plot of the "Jamie Douglas" ballad. It is just possible that the name has been taken from the Antrim version.

3. A variation of the second line is " A little time while it is new," but I prefer the more archaic version, though this agrees more closely with Allan Ramsay's, because it is more likely that the older form has been modernised than that the original has been Doricised; and, besides, Ramsay was as fond of repolishing these "auld sangs" as the Bishop himself, so that his versions cannot always be considered literally indisputable.

4. A variation of the third line is "You are the first love that ere I knew." It was probably for variety's sake.

5. Pronounced "a-rums."

6. A variation for "your love" is "you, love."

7. "Yes" is often omitted..

8. For "wee sma" I have heard "little small."

9. For "it's " some say "it was."

10. These two last lines are sometimes sung thus:

"For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, and you
May go choose your ain self a bride.".

Taken from On the Antrim version of "Waly, Waly." Ulster Journal of Archaeology, Series II Vol. 3 Pages 144/148; published in 1897,
BY J. JOHNSTON ABRAHAM, T.C.D.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

Here's a Scottish variant with a similar chorus. The Irish version is quite different. I haven't finished transcribing it- here's the link:http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2963;jsessionid=1C4C81736E7156DDE9806817C824057D

Love is Bonnie (Love is Pleasing)- sung by Willie Mathieson, of Aberdeenshire, 1952.

I left my father I left my mother,
I left my brother and sisters too,
I left my home and kind relations
For the sake to go with you.

CHORUS: Love is bonnie, bonnie, bonnie
A little whilie when it is new
As it grows older it aye grows colder
Fades away like the morning dew.

I wish my parents never whistled,
I wish my parents never sung;
I wish the cradle had never rocked me,
I wish I'd died, when I was young.

CHORUS

I wish I wish but in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
A maid again I never can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

CHORUS

O lassies, lassies, heed my warning,
. . to false men
They're like the dew on a summer morning
. . .learn to love again

[text incomplete] If you can add to-- it please do. Comments or other versions welcome!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM

Hi,

TY for all who have contributed to these threads. As the thread gets long it's hard to see what's in it and it takes a while to pull up-- so I'm starting Died for Love: Part III. Joe Offer will be closing this thread soon.

Please post on the new thread-- Died for Love: III --as we explore the various Died for Love songs and their relatives,

TY

Richie